Discussion on Forum Sociology and Interpersonal Dynamics

NeonKaos

Custodian
In all honesty though-while I think you are sometimes more blunt than necessary-
I GREATLY PREFER BLUNT
over the game playing b.s. that people play trying to be something that they are not.

The thing is - I hate it when people pussy-foot around something because they "don't want to hurt my feelings". To me, it is insulting, condescending, like saying "you can't HANDLE the truth™ being told to you, so we need to dress it up, put a silk hat on a pig, make things look like something they are not >JUST FOR YOU< because you are not able to face reality". And this is all packaged up as being "kind and gentle". Well, excuse me for not needing that special treatment. I will be hurt or not no matter how you tell me whatever it is you have to tell me. Just get it over with.

And I believe in treating others the way I would like to be treated.

I also think that people are not as "unique" as they are taught to think they are, and that it is a bit of a waste to patronize others with things like "my poly is not your poly". Even though there is a lot of validity in that statement and others like it, they can make a convenient smoke-screen when folks want to avoid responding to or dealing with something that makes them feel uncomfortable.

I've heard two types of criticism about the "tone" or "culture" of this forum. One, that everyone on here is here to "yes" each other and only the people who agree with the "feel-good-I'm-ok-you're-ok-and-don't-you-dare-rain-on-my-parade" are "privileged" and "acceptable". While on the other hand, there is a backlash of "But I thought this forum was supposed to be for SUPPORT, and I was JUDGED instead."

When I first joined here I didn't think I would last very long. I thought I would be scolded by the moderators and eventually banned.
 
Y-
I happen to agree with you on the "why do we have to pretend we're saying something nice. Constructive Cristicism isn't kissing your ass-it's CRITICISING what you are DOING (wrong imo).

It's ironic-because I've stayed out of the HMA/Violet drama, but I find that in my real life I'm getting some shit for being blunt and point blank as well. :)

A lot of people just do not want to know what they do wrong. They'd rather just hear the things that they do right-and never know what they do wrong. People like to complain and whine about their life-martyr themselves or blame others for their misery. They don't really want to CHANGE their life/problems.

I've gotten to the point that often-I just don't reply to a lot of the posts anymore-for precisely that reason. I also don't listen or respond to a lot of the complaining by people around me in R/L for the same reason.
 
On Ygirl

K, confession time- for over a year now I have been PMing people on here who seemingly get their back up over your statements that seemingly come out of know where if one doesn't know you. I have been giving them a gentle info session on the subtle humour and not so delicate way you say things.... just to help them understand and give them guidance so that they may not be offended...:D

I know that you have helped me. My spelling and grammer has never been better :D not to mention the kicks in the ass you have given me. :) we are oh so helpful to one another aren't we? Symbiotic for sure!

I also think that people are not as "unique" as they are taught to think they are, and that it is a bit of a waste to patronize others with things like "my poly is not your poly". Even though there is a lot of validity in that statement and others like it, they can make a convenient smoke-screen when folks want to avoid responding to or dealing with something that makes them feel uncomfortable.

yup, this would be me on occasion. I am guilty of that and happy to admit. I like that about myself. I actually know when I have had enough and chose to back out of further bashing over the head with not the intent to help or be gentle when I am already beaten, but to make a point of making me uncomfortable and showing me up; kicking me more when I am already down. Call it patronising if you will, but I call it saving face and why shouldn't we have that right?

I've heard two types of criticism about the "tone" or "culture" of this forum. One, that everyone on here is here to "yes" each other and only the people who agree with the "feel-good-I'm-ok-you're-ok-and-don't-you-dare-rain-on-my-parade" are "privileged" and "acceptable". While on the other hand, there is a backlash of "But I thought this forum was supposed to be for SUPPORT, and I was JUDGED instead."

When I first joined here I didn't think I would last very long. I thought I would be scolded by the moderators and eventually banned.

People have left because of the atmosphere of this forum being a therapeutic environment rather than a "fuck you asshole you're wrong" fest as on other forums... why have you stayed...?

I do hope those who can't play nice have found other alternatives. I wouldn't want them to be left out, but don't encourage them to come here if they have that attitude.
 
HAHA! Oh we are so privileged to of made space for a peaceful respectful environment of safety on the internet. I'm SO glad to have this haven to rest in when I am feeling raw and vulnerable... as most people who come here feel when they arrive on our doorstep... battered and confused.

We should feel so proud to of achieved such high status and admiration amongst our poly community... part of that is thanks to you ygirl, yet you seemingly roll your eyes at the atmosphere along with some of your friends. I don't get it?

Ummm...yeah. Just a reminder that this is actually a very select haven. There are plenty of people who don't consider this such a safe space because their point of view or thoughts on topics are consistently met with resistance and shot down. And there are plenty of the poly community who don't admire this place because of it's subtle way of judging different practices of poly that don't conform to the way a core group of dominant posters practice it. And there is always a lot of tension and grief whenever people who run counter to this culture attempt to make space for themselves on this forum.

Not saying this to be a nay-sayer but as a reality check. I would say that is is a good place for a subset of the poly community but not for the poly community as a whole.

Then again I've said that before and gotten a lot of shit for it, and I'm sure I'll get shit for it again and lots of people telling me I'm wrong. So be it. I probably won't have time to reply (as I'm currently leading a week long sexuality education course) but I can say that as an active member of a rather large poly community, both locally where I live and more geographically spread from being online, this place is avoided by many for the above stated reasons.
 
People have left because of the atmosphere of this forum being a therapeutic environment rather than a "fuck you asshole you're wrong" fest as on other forums... why have you stayed...?

I do hope those who can't play nice have found other alternatives. I wouldn't want them to be left out, but don't encourage them to come here if they have that attitude.

I find it interesting that people who post in a way you deem acceptable are "playing nice" while other people who feel that posting their authentic views on things are seen as "fuck you asshole you're wrong." Perhaps this tone policing is what makes the space unwelcoming for many people. One of my feminist groups on Fetlife has a view on tone policing that I tend to agree with. It's about privilege:

Tone-policing- We recognize tone-policing as being a form of policing the human expressions of others. Anger, hurt, and even the occasional fit of all-caps can only be considered illegitimate expressions of an experience if we assume that full expression is limited to the privileged classes.​

I know it may seem like words like "privileged class" etc are rather strong ways to express it. (Class? There are no classes here! It's an internet forum!) But there are certainly more privileged people than others here. There are certainly people who are more accepted than others here.

There are many ways that people put other people down on this forum without even knowing it. Yet it seems that in order to preserve the "therapeutic environment" here, those who have been put down have the obligation to check their feelings and "communicate compassionately" or "show maturity" rather than be truthful about how they feel for the sake of not making the person who put them down feel unsafe. As a result, they have to be the ones who don't feel safe. This dynamic has shown up plenty of times. I respect Y-Girl's blunt style of calling things out. For some reason, Y-Girl has been granted a pass on this by the powers that be. For some reason, Redpepper finds it acceptable to personally be a buffer for her yet chastise other people for the very same behavior. I do find that interesting.

Additional note: I happen to think that the type of bluntness displayed by Y-Girl contributes to a safe space. Generally, authenticity can be a safer way to communicate than being polite. Politeness is about having to check yourself and censor natural communication in order to be more acceptable to others. That doesn't sound terribly safe to me. This dynamic is talked about a lot among anti-racist and anti-oppression activists. There is a great article about the the privilege of politeness that sheds some light on it.
 
Additional note: I happen to think that the type of bluntness displayed by Y-Girl contributes to a safe space. Generally, authenticity can be a safer way to communicate than being polite. Politeness is about having to check yourself and censor natural communication in order to be more acceptable to others. That doesn't sound terribly safe to me.

Wow, thanks, but I think I do a pretty good job of being both authentic AND polite! :cool:

Despite being a self-identified misanthrope, I think that the people on this forum are all basically good and trying to do what they believe is right. I question their reasoning and processing sometimes, and I have a tendency to see "elephants in the room" that may not really be there. I explained in this thread why I take the chance that people will be offended by that.

Some of you are already aware that I struggle with the forum "tone" policy. I make an effort to follow it when it comes to my own posts (as far as things like saying "fuck you' to people go). I think it's ok to say "fuck you" as long as we can all move past it and not spiral into "Well fuck you TWICE", "No, fuck you THREE TIMES", "A THOUSAND TIMES FUCK YOU". I don't care if the angry black lady disagrees with that.

Not saying this to be a nay-sayer but as a reality check. I would say that is is a good place for a subset of the poly community but not for the poly community as a whole.

And this. This is what I have been saying all along (in the private conversations we've had). I didn't think you agreed with it. I'm sorry if I can't make things right for everybody, but I don't have the kind of control over this place that folks might think I do.
 
People have left because of the atmosphere of this forum being a therapeutic environment rather than a "fuck you asshole you're wrong" fest as on other forums... why have you stayed...?

I do hope those who can't play nice have found other alternatives. I wouldn't want them to be left out, but don't encourage them to come here if they have that attitude.

This may offend some people, but I'll be totally honest. I read some stories and wonder what I would do in the same situation. I read others and say to myself, "Thank gaud that ain't me." Still others I read and recognize myself at some point in my life. It always comes back to this - NOW - it hasn't always been the case: my life is pretty good, not perfect, and why would I want to mess with it by becoming involved with more people? Not very "poly" of me, but that is what I get from this place. The personal, internal knowledge and satisfaction that I'm doing something right. I am not wise; I simply found a good partner in my husband by CHANCE, but it serves as a comparison for the good and bad decisions I have made in the past and those that I have yet to make.

THIS SITE HELPS ME APPRECIATE HOW FORTUNATE I AM. So that's why I have stayed. But it is only one part of my internet social-life. I don't lose sleep over it.
 
Wow, thanks, but I think I do a pretty good job of being both authentic AND polite!

Yeah. I think we agree on what is polite, but I think there are other definitions of politeness that I take issue with.
 
There are plenty of people who don't consider this such a safe space because their point of view or thoughts on topics are consistently met with resistance and shot down.

That could be characterized as their ideas are found lacking and they run away and hide from those folks who just refuse to convert.

I've had folks disagree with me on things here since the beginning--non-stop resistance, if you will. I'll suggest that the difference between somebody like me and the folks who run away is that I'm not trying to convert anybody.

And there are plenty of the poly community who don't admire this place because of it's subtle way of judging different practices of poly that don't conform to the way a core group of dominant posters practice it. And there is always a lot of tension and grief whenever people who run counter to this culture attempt to make space for themselves on this forum.

I look around on here and we have folks doing poly in a whole lot of different fashions. Based on that, I'd have to say I find this criticism lacking.

Not saying this to be a nay-sayer but as a reality check. I would say that is is a good place for a subset of the poly community but not for the poly community as a whole.

I doubt there's going to be any single place that is suitable for the entire poly community as a whole. Because of that being a practical impossibility, any criticism that not everybody would be happy here is irrelevant, I think.

Then again I've said that before and gotten a lot of shit for it, and I'm sure I'll get shit for it again and lots of people telling me I'm wrong. So be it.

If you think having people disagree with you is catching shit and a horrible experience, then this isn't the place for you. We allow folks to disagree here. We simply expect them to play nicely while they disagree.
 
I find it interesting that people who post in a way you deem acceptable are "playing nice" while other people who feel that posting their authentic views on things are seen as "fuck you asshole you're wrong." Perhaps this tone policing is what makes the space unwelcoming for many people. One of my feminist groups on Fetlife has a view on tone policing that I tend to agree with. It's about privilege:

Tone-policing- We recognize tone-policing as being a form of policing the human expressions of others. Anger, hurt, and even the occasional fit of all-caps can only be considered illegitimate expressions of an experience if we assume that full expression is limited to the privileged classes.​

I'll call shenanigans on this.

The type of behavior expected is here is the type that would be acceptable at a dinner party. Posters can disagree with each other and continue in discussion. They can't scream at other people or cuss others out willy nilly or anything else that would have them escorted out of a dinner party in short order.

I respect Y-Girl's blunt style of calling things out. For some reason, Y-Girl has been granted a pass on this by the powers that be. For some reason, Redpepper finds it acceptable to personally be a buffer for her yet chastise other people for the very same behavior. I do find that interesting.

Ygirl communicates in a fashion that is both blunt and avoids abusing other people. She meets the standard expected for discussion here--the same standard that applies to everybody.

If folks can't figure out what the difference is between how YGirl communicates here and how other posters who have been moderated communicate, then I'll offer that the problem is not one inherent in the policies of this site.

Additional note: I happen to think that the type of bluntness displayed by Y-Girl contributes to a safe space. Generally, authenticity can be a safer way to communicate than being polite. Politeness is about having to check yourself and censor natural communication in order to be more acceptable to others. [/QUOTE]

We don't have a policy of politeness here; we have a standard of civil discussion here. We may couch it in a general description of "play nicely," though you'll find that the more concrete guidelines point to a standard of civility. Our preference in moderating the boards is to allow as much free expression as possible while maintaining civility.
 
That could be characterized as their ideas are found lacking and they run away and hide from those folks who just refuse to convert.

I've had folks disagree with me on things here since the beginning--non-stop resistance, if you will. I'll suggest that the difference between somebody like me and the folks who run away is that I'm not trying to convert anybody.

Sure it could be characterized like that. Feel free to do so. It's a lot easier to do that than to listen to the concerns of those who may be on the other side of that. And this isn't about people trying to convert anyone. It's about people who offer differing perspectives that tend to be invalidated here if those perspectives don't sit well with others.

Either way, you're free to do with it what you wish.



I look around on here and we have folks doing poly in a whole lot of different fashions. Based on that, I'd have to say I find this criticism lacking.

And I look around here and see something different. Based on that, I'd have to say that I find this criticism of my point lacking.



I doubt there's going to be any single place that is suitable for the entire poly community as a whole. Because of that being a practical impossibility, any criticism that not everybody would be happy here is irrelevant, I think.

At what point did I say that everyone should be happy here? I didn't. I just pointed out where the boundaries are.



If you think having people disagree with you is catching shit and a horrible experience, then this isn't the place for you. We allow folks to disagree here. We simply expect them to play nicely while they disagree.

Playing nicely and not playing nicely can show up in all sorts of subtle ways. I find it interesting that certain people here seem to catch shit in order to protect others here from catching shit. And whether or not it's the place for me is irrelevant. If you're happy with such spurious and selective standards then clearly this is the right place to be, which is why I suggested that this is not a good place for the poly community as a whole, but good for a subset of the community.

I would suggest that people don't always play as nicely as they claim here, even though it may appear so. You may want to examine how such things play out and how this space can be an unwelcoming place for some people. Or you can say "screw them". There are all sorts of ways to build a community, and if that's the kind of online community you want to build here, then more power to you.
 
I'll call shenanigans on this.

The type of behavior expected is here is the type that would be acceptable at a dinner party. Posters can disagree with each other and continue in discussion. They can't scream at other people or cuss others out willy nilly or anything else that would have them escorted out of a dinner party in short order.

Interesting. I'm not actually talking about people screaming or cussing others out willy nilly. I'm talking about how accepting the general culture is. To bring it to extreme examples is a straw man argument. Besides, who's dinner party? Different people have different ideas of what polite dinner party conversation is. Some people aren't allowed to swear at all, others are. Either way, it's a spurious argument at best. It's saying that people who have experienced insult must be polite about how they've been insulted. That's not always the best way to respond. Being authentic with your anger is not the same is throwing out "fuck you's" willy nilly. Yet it does tend to come to that when people here are chastised (and by chastised, I mean told by the community as a whole that they have no business expressing their feelings on the matter) for being angry at something long before it gets there.


Ygirl communicates in a fashion that is both blunt and avoids abusing other people. She meets the standard expected for discussion here--the same standard that applies to everybody.

If folks can't figure out what the difference is between how YGirl communicates here and how other posters who have been moderated communicate, then I'll offer that the problem is not one inherent in the policies of this site.

Again, not the point I'm making. The dynamic is much more subtle than that.


We don't have a policy of politeness here; we have a standard of civil discussion here. We may couch it in a general description of "play nicely," though you'll find that the more concrete guidelines point to a standard of civility. Our preference in moderating the boards is to allow as much free expression as possible while maintaining civility.

And again, people can appear to be playing nicely whilst simultaneously flat out invalidating the experiences of others. They can couch this in "it's just how I feel" or "my poly isn't your poly" etc, but the effect still stands. Most people don't even know they're doing this. But generally, this is not a space where people can be called out on their ignorance without it turning into some drama. There are other boards that have a much more mature approach to it and where there can be a much more diverse community that can safely coexist.

If you want to be proud of your exclusivity, more power to you.
 
Ceoli, I hear a lot of bitterness in your posts.

What do you see as the acceptable model of polyamory here, that you find so disturbing?

Myself, I see most ppl here as having some sort of poly-fidelitous arrangement. But I do see some ethical sluts such as myself here as well.

I look forward to the day where I may find such another person... right now I am content with deep love with my girlfriend, and my search for other ppl with whom to share my life on a similar deep level.

But otoh, I am quite happy sometimes to just see one of my boytoys, knowing I will be respected, amused and sexually satisfied from a date with him, whether or not we cook together, or talk about our deepest issues in our lives in much detail, or leave the bedroom to go out on the town together, or spend the night sleeping in each others' arms.

Even tho this seems counter to the expectations of many here, I have never felt judged for my current approach and love/sex-life situations.
 
I would suggest that people don't always play as nicely as they claim here, even though it may appear so. You may want to examine how such things play out and how this space can be an unwelcoming place for some people.

I don't like this "people" and "some people" parrying. I would like to see naming of names and quoting from messages with examples of "how such things play out". I am probably guilty of this too, without even realizing it, so please do me this courtesy. Please be specific, even if it means "embarrassing" me (not that you would ever censor yourself for MY benefit, but I want people reading this to know that I asked for it).
 
This may offend some people, but I'll be totally honest. I read some stories and wonder what I would do in the same situation. I read others and say to myself, "Thank gaud that ain't me." Still others I read and recognize myself at some point in my life.

True, that. There are times I ache so much after reading too many of the sad stories from new folks that I just don't have the stomach to try to chase down any of the threads where I'd like to follow the discussion. There are times I want to ask people "Why in HELL are you still involved with that person?!" There are times I despair over the whole human race because of what I read folks are doing to each other in what's supposed to be a loving relationship. It's spilled out into my FB status at times (and my ex-gf thought one status update was about her and the bad relationship she dove into after we split up).

Why did I decide not to stay away after getting my legs chopped from behind? This place helps people. Not everybody will be comfortable here--I've understood that from the beginning and have never made an attempt to appeal to everybody. Some folks won't like it because too many people disagree with them. Some folks won't like it because they can't scream and carry on as they'd like to. Some folks won't like it because they just don't like some of the most active posters. Some folks won't like it because they have a narrower definition of poly than other posters here. Some won't like because they have a wider definition of poly than most people here. Some folks won't like it because it's not a meat market. And so on.

That's OK. There are lots of folks who find this place useful and helpful and that's what keeps me plugging away mostly out of sight working to keep the dinner party going.
 
And again, people can appear to be playing nicely whilst simultaneously flat out invalidating the experiences of others. They can couch this in "it's just how I feel" or "my poly isn't your poly" etc, but the effect still stands.

Weren't you just trying to claim that we shouldn't be limiting how people express themselves?

Or did that only apply to some of the people? Those you'd choose to express themselves freely?

Seems to me you want to show preference to some expression and not to other expression--the same thing you're complaining about us doing.

I also see you trying to lay dislike you have for members here at the feet of the board admin/mod staff. You criticize folks for not taking criticism well--a problem with members--while offering that other sites take a more "mature" approach as if there's some magic wand the staff can use to keep folks from getting pissy in the face of disagreement. The mod staff can do nothing about people getting pissy--we can only rein in abusive behavior in posts.

So, is your problem a social one in that you just don't like the members here? Or is it a structural one and our insistence on civil discussion that offends you?

The more I read, the more I'm convinced that the issue is one of folks who don't like some of our members staying away and claiming this site is somehow exclusive because they choose to stay away. I've seen nothing that indicates anything different and the only problem I see with it is that they're offering up their choice as somehow being forced upon them.
 
Ceoli, I hear a lot of bitterness in your posts.

What do you see as the acceptable model of polyamory here, that you find so disturbing?

Myself, I see most ppl here as having some sort of poly-fidelitous arrangement. But I do see some ethical sluts such as myself here as well.

Magdlyn, I wouldn't say that I'm very bitter. I do get annoyed with the tone of some of the responses to what I say, but they are just as free to have that tone as I am to express my annoyance with it.

However, community organizing is an important thing to me and so is marginalization. I find communities that actively reject marginalized people to be rather dysfunctional. Since this is a site that falls highly in google searches, it strikes me that there are ways it can be a bit more responsible about examining how welcoming it really is.

As of now, this is a great site for mono couples opening their relationship, strongly couple-centric ways of practicing poly and the general poly-fi model. There are all sorts of ways that these models take up the most space and generally don't leave much space for others. This happens in all sorts of subtle ways that people can either examine or not. If people see that as a fiction I'm weaving or as being over-senstitive, that's fine. If this site is happy with where it is, then great. But it would not be true to say that this site is the place to go for everyone who is struggling. There are many struggling people who would not feel welcome here. There are definitely other sites where alternative voices have more weight. This isn't one of them. It would just be nice if those sites googled as high as this one, then people who are new to poly that approach it in other ways wouldn't be put off.
 
Weren't you just trying to claim that we shouldn't be limiting how people express themselves?

Or did that only apply to some of the people? Those you'd choose to express themselves freely?

Seems to me you want to show preference to some expression and not to other expression--the same thing you're complaining about us doing.

Nope. I'm pointing out privilege. I'm pointing out that there is a favored way of expression here that is considered fair by some, and not fair by others. It seems that you (since you're saying "us" here) consider it fair and are saying "too bad" to those who may not consider it fair.

I'm saying that not everyone feels the freedom to call out such ignorance because of the need to preserve the "therapeutic nature" of this site. You seem to be ok with that. I hold a different standard.
 
It would just be nice if those sites googled as high as this one, then people who are new to poly that approach it in other ways wouldn't be put off.


We have the same issue in the realm of CF forums. Certain ones are more "hardcore" than others, and even the non-hardcore ones vary when it comes to things like inclusiveness. There is one, perhaps the most "offensive" one in terms of allowing "willy-nilly fuck-you's" as well as usage of terms such as "faggot" and "retard", that has extremely high Google ratings. Other CF forums disagree with the "hate" site that allows everything being displayed in Google as an "example".

I don't put much stock in Google ratings. I tend to think for myself. If something is high up on the Google search results, I always look further. It's a bit insulting to people searching on the internet to assume that they are "put off" from poly just because they don't like the first forum that shows up in Google. It's a bit like saying that they would be "put off" of Asian food because they didn't like the food served by the first restaurant that showed up when they googled "hot and sour soup".
 
What is this CF you referenced, YGirl?
 
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