Turnabout

If we were following a thread all about Sundance struggling to come to terms with Carma's betrayal, I would feel a great deal of compassion for him. Instead, in this thread, we've seen him lie to both Carma and Barbie about BIG things and refuse to stop. I have never once told Carma she was wrong for staying in her marriage and, in fact, I supported her decision to leave Butch in the end. However, in their current predicament I've felt compassion for Carma, Barbie and Butch but NOT for Sundance, because he's acting atrociously! Yes NRE is real, and yes mistakes happen, but no you do not get a mulligan, a free pass with no condemnation or whatever, when your mistakes are pointed out to you again and again and instead of trying to change you blatantly use and lie to a new partner without seeming to even think it's a problem.

It's just not cool.
 
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"Your spouse is doing things wrong??? Leave-em, ditch-em, kick them to the curb !!! But hey, if you dump your secondary or newest lover, we`ll tell you, that you treated them as disposable !"

I genuinely haven't seen that pattern. I think people here are tired of dysfunctional situations and are quick to suggest that a poster leave any relationship where things are really messed up. Note ALL the advice that Imaginary Illusions got on his blog telling him to leave his secondary, K. Note all the advice that lovinhimlovinher got in the Gen. section NOT to downgrade her relationship with her husband from primary to secondary without working on it more.

It's all situational... it's just that we don't privilege marriage over everything else, so yes, people get told they should consider leaving their spouses sometimes, and I guess that's not advice you see a lot in the culture at large because the idea is you have to try to save your marriage at all costs, everything else be damned.
 
What I loved about poly is its requirement for absolute honesty. I mean, it just can't work without it. Sundance is not comfortable or secure enough to operate that way. So there is a major issue, in and outside of poly, which was only going to be worse when he expanded into another relationship.

I am into the gruelling process of being honest with myself and with others. I was also killer lonely, before the affair and also in my encouragement of Sundance to find a girlfriend -- who I hoped would become my friend. I guess that may have been a miscommunication on my part (although I don't think it was -- I dreamed of a "sister wife," I did not dream of him having a stranger telling him how deeply she loved him) or maybe I just didn't realize how truly lonely I was, and that there are plenty of other ways of addressing loneliness, than sending my husband out on a silver platter!

My "affair" with Butch for the 3+ years prior to poly.... I call it an affair but it was not, totally. It was a friendship that I/we fought extremely hard from letting get deeper. There were months when I avoided him altogether. We moved to another town for a school year, where I never saw him at all, although I did call him on the phone a few times, to see how he was doing. I can't justify the fact that yes, I had crossed an emotional line, and eventually it became physical (not actually consummated til our poly agreement) -- but I must say we weren't having FUN during those years!!! It was all fighting off feelings that neither of us wanted to act on. It was heartwrenching. It was not a passionate wild love affair. (does that matter? Does it make me any more "righteous"?)

Anyway, I realized today that I really did love our Butch Cassidy and the Sundance Kid (and Etta Place) role play, very much. Maybe if the two guys had embraced it half as much as I had, they would have found some rich, wonderful friendship and intimacy there. Instead, Sundance took his male pride out there for some ego-stroking. He did NOT see some girl and feel she could use a friend. It was all about his needs -- and she was all too happy to fill them. But he could have gotten them all met right here if only he'd let us all enjoy what we had worked so hard to build! He's a loner and a macho man. And it's really too bad. The other option was he could have introduced her to me, even to Butch eventually! I've seen that happen in beautiful ways right here on this forum. Now I'm second guessing myself and saying I was crazy? He's blaming me -- and/or I'm blaming myself -- for being "wrong" all along? Geez, it's all gotta be black and white, doesn't it?!?

Those are my thoughts off the top of my head at the moment. I am such an extremist -- we hit a big bump in the road and I immediately scream, "TURN BACK!!!!" I'm not so sure I didn't bail out too soon. I don't know, I'm still very confused.

As for Butch, he is so good at compartmentalizing things, I have to believe he'll stuff it all and be fine. He is another one too proud to show his true feelings. If he can't come out and admit it, I guess he's going to lose something he may or may not have treasured in his life. Hey -- he and Sundance are still friends; why can't HE do the talking this time???? I can't be the one ruling the poly universe anymore! Or the mono one, either!

(For one wild dreamy moment today, I imagined my two guys talking it out and agreeing to try and make it work again! Haha. Or Sundance surprising the hell out of me and taking me to dinner and there are Butch and Barbie, and we all have a good laugh!:p)

If it weren't for all of you, I may not even be alive right now. I want to thank you all from the bottom of my heart. Your perspective keeps me thinking and loving and breathing and REAL.
 
annabel,

Ok so your against a mulligan ....how about letting Sun hit off the ladies Tee's and 5 strokes . ... in the spirit of compassion and compromise?

You said the kind of fairness that really matters is the kind that starts with compassion. How do you plug that into this situation ....on all sides. And that's hard to reconcile..... with life is not fair ringing in the back ground.

The article you mentioned seemed to confuse acts done for or with someone with the expectation of a payout later down the road and ....fairness.

Butch had an affair with a married woman.....his eyes.... wide open.

Barbie ....(who has a rich bf)(what type of relationship they have is????) knew she was entering a situation that had the potential of getting messy.

I don't see anyone anyone with completely clean hands....
 
Dh: how about letting Sun hit off the ladies Tee's and 5 strokes . ... in the spirit of compassion and compromise?

-- I'm actually not sure what this means? If this means sex, then of course I think that should be fine, but ONLY if he can do that and be honest with all involved. I don't know how to make it clearer that I think lack of honesty on Sun's part is what made this situation not ok. There is nothing compassionate ahout letting your partner deceive a woman about the nature of your relationship.

Dh: The article you mentioned seemed to confuse acts done for or with someone with the expectation of a payout later down the road and ....fairness.

-- My understanding of the point of the article was that doing something for someone while expecting a reward is NOT a good definition of fairness. Did you ever read the whole article?

Dh: I don't see anyone anyone with completely clean hands....

-- Did you see the part, a few posts back, where I said "I hear you that things were messed up on both sides at various times in the relationship"? I agree with you on that point. But when you've messed up, your responsibility is to reform your behavior and do better. That's what Carma did when she came clean to Sun and negotiated a poly arrangement where everyone could be honest. It *doesn't* mean that you're required to wear a scarlet letter A, take shit for the rest of your life, and accept without argument any wrongs your partner does to you in the future as your just rewards.

We all make mistakes, and if we're lucky we sometimes also get the chance to do what we can to make them right. Fairness is treating someone how you'd want to be treated. Fairness is NOT "you messed up so now I can do whatever I want with no consequences or regard for you."
 
I've got some weird stuff in my head today. Confused. It's been one strange week of topsy-turvy emotions, then some numbness, and now some new perspectives coming along.

I wonder if I just gave up too soon. At the first taste of jealousy, I totally freaked. But, like so many have pointed out here, it was the dishonesty that was eating me alive, not so much the polyamorous situation. Maybe it wasn't even "jealousy;" maybe it was more simply a fear of the unknown. I just didn't know where I stand, she (Barbie) didn't know where she stands, and it was getting messy.

Sundance seems fine with giving her up, says he is, says he's glad it's just us, back to being monogamous again. Yet.... she called him yesterday afternoon while I was away for a few hours. She had to have known I'd be gone at that time, so how did she know? He must have told her, right? So when was that? A text first? I mean, obviously they are in touch, she knows my schedule well enough to know it's "safe" to call him. Or "respectfully not wanting to intrude on my time with him." (?) I'm not being suspicious, playing detective, all that crap. I shouldn't have to be -- I wish Sundance felt free enough and safe enough to JUST TELL ME. He is constantly working an angle in this, and it does not have to be that way. Geez man! Do you care about her or not? He says NO. Is it "over" with her? He says it is. But he talks to her, says it's about work. Which I'm sure some of it is. And I know he can see her at any point during his workday, and I would never know. I don't want to be suspicious. I don't want to be lied to. I would rather just tell him to keep the relationship going with her!!! How hard is it, to just do it, but just be honest about it???

I'm uncomfortable with the manipulation here. But on the flip side, actually -- it's the appearance that I'M the one in the driver's seat: "If you want me to stop seeing her, then you stop seeing Butch." So me ending things with Butch was only a way of manipulating HIS relationship with her? Ugh. That's not right. Doesn't he want to be free to make his own decisions??? Don't I want him to be???

Our secondary relationships can't be so dependent upon one another. THAT'S not fair.

I think he's trying to keep her "on the back burner" just in case I change my mind and want to see Butch, or get caught sneaking around all over again.

I'm hyper-sensitive, trying to figure out, does he want to see her, and is he looking for a license to do so?

I don't give out the licenses!
Do I?
Does he?

I mean, do I want monogamy, or don't I? Shit, at this point, I have no idea! I know at some points in our polyamory, I felt more natural than I have in my entire life. We had worked really hard to work out the boundaries, and I thought they were actually starting to work. Could we have worked it out with her, too?

Today I just want to call up Barbie and tell her that I am willing to share, as long as she knows the truth and respects me and my marriage. But how can I do that if Sundance won't tell me directly that he even wants that??? And of course, he will think it's because I want to see Butch, that it's all about me.

What about me? If he resumes (continues?) his relationship with her, and I find out, either by his honest admission (not likely) or me playing detective and "busting" him (which I don't want to do, either), then what? Then do I get a green light to go back to Butch again? Do I even want that? Does Sundance? And isn't this rather ridiculous, as we both have secondaries who would happily take us back but don't even get a say in the matter, at all??

I still like the concept of polyamory. I liked re-defining love and marriage, creating a life that is uniquely ours and not dictated by convention and "morals." I liked being true to myself and to my own heart.

And I'm hella curious about Barbie. :rolleyes: She was really falling in love with my husband. What's so terrible about that? Could we have been on the same team? We sure have something in common. So she bought him gifts -- is that so bad? Did it have to be so secretive? How dumb. I know I overreacted, but it's because he hid things -- which in turn led me to overreact, which led him to hide things...!!!

This is all one big cluster of confusion. Having an incredibly tough time trying to figure this out, and poor Sundance, he's overwhelmed right now, with work stuff, some health issues, finances, my MOODS..... We talk till we're both losing sleep at night. Yeah, I need to make that counseling appointment, right?! :confused:
 
Yeah, I need to make that counseling appointment, right?! :confused:

Yes. He's manipulated and gaslighted* you right into a corner, right where he wants you. Your "boundaries" of how you could express your love to Butch were so tight... but not limited enough for Sundance, it seems. So he forced your hand, got you to break up with B, and now he is free to see Barbie anytime he wants, 2 hours away in the town where they both work for the same company!

This isn't poly, this is cheating.

*defintion of gaslighting

gaslighting
A common form of brainwashing in which an abuser tries to falsely convince the victim that the victim is defective, for any purpose whatsoever, such as making the victim more pliable and easily controlled, or making the victim more emotional and therefore more needy and dependent. {You're reading "Definition of Gaslighting" by J. E. Brown.}

Often done by friends and family members, who claim (and may even believe) that they are trying to be helpful. The gaslighting abuser sees himself or herself as a nurturing parental figure in relation to the victim, and uses gaslighting as a means for keeping the victim in that relationship, perhaps as punishment for the victim's attempt to break out of the dependent role.

Example 1: If an abusive person says hurtful things and makes you cry, and then, instead of apologizing and taking responsibility, starts recommending treatments for what he or she calls "your depression" or "your mood swings," you are in the presence of a gaslighter.

Example 2: If someone insults you or criticizes you, and then pretends it was a joke and asks "Don't you have a sense of humor?", that's gaslighting.

Perception blaming is a common form of gaslighting, and a common technique for evading the consequences of one's actions. Example: "I'm sorry you perceived my words that way; it wasn't my intention." Translation: "You are perceptually defective. Everyone else in the world can read my mind; if you can't, there must be something wrong with you. Or so I'd like you to believe." Unspoken Message: "My intention should change your actions (even though it didn't change mine)." This presupposes the reasoning "Most people are judged for their actions; but *I* want to be judged for my unseen intentions." For more about this double standard, see Definition of Conceit. {Read this comp1ete article at http://jebrown.us/Relationshop/Definitions/gaslighting.html .}

Etymology: Term is named after the film Gaslight (1944), in which the villain used the technique.

http://jebrown.us/Relationshop/Definitions/gaslighting.html

Also, see wiki on the subject.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaslighting
 
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Wait a minute people, we only have one side of the story here. How dare you all judge Sundance when he hasn't even had the chance to speak for himself.
 
Wait a minute people, we only have one side of the story here. How dare you all judge Sundance when he hasn't even had the chance to speak for himself.

?

Sun could post here if he wanted, he's chosen not to. All we have to go on is Carma's story so what should we do, just not say anything when our take on the situation is that he's not acting in the best ways or with the best motives?

I think that Mag's call of gaslighting makes a lot of sense and fits with some of the things Carma has told us. He may not realize exactly what he's doing. Or Mag may be wrong, but IF she's right the info could really help Carma in understanding their dynamic, talking to him about how his behavior affects her, and helping her decide what to do.

I don't see this board as a place where we try not to judge, I see it as a place where we try to help.
 
Annabel darling,

!

I'm just doing what people usually do at some point, which is point out that we only have one side of the story and therefore incomplete information with which to draw conclusions. Time and time again i have seen people do a 180 degree turn on their free advice when the other part(ies) show up and see what their partner wrote about them. Has Sundance really chosen not to post here or does he simply not know he's being talked about? Maybe he should come here and read all the stuff being said about him, then i bet he'd feel like posting. I know i would.

Also, i have been in your position too, lecturing other members who complain about people judging without the other side of the story. So nothing you just said is new to me; you could have copied it from one of my earlier posts.
 
By the same token, i have also seen the other partner show up here and act in such a way as to confirm the things that have been written about them.
 
Carma,

Calm down and get to the therapist. I think you're in the area of trying to un-ring bells. Sitting and worry about all the different scenarios that "could" be taking place is exhausting and futile. If and when he fucks up will be time to address those concerns. Sky.... still not falling.

I really don't see Sundance as this evil genius ...who had a long term plan to have an outside relationship ....and to deny you the same. The manipulation is all predicated on knowing the reaction. If there was no reaction ....or a positive reaction this theory falls apart very quickly.

Gaslight good movie...also twlight zone episode but I think it a little early...and with out any evidence to make that leap. Once in a paranoid mindset your brain can manufacture all kinds of evidence .....so I think should be careful here.


Annabel,

It was a golf metaphor ... Mulligan is a golf term.... it is a do over. So I was just keeping it with in the same sport. And no hitting off the ladies Tee's does not mean sex ....it just meant giving him very a slight break. The ladies Tee box is set closer to the hole because the difference in upper body strength .... giving strokes the same thing.

No I didn't read the entire article but from what you said I think that the article should have been written with the focus on selfish expectations and not on how life's not fair. I'll go back and read it....see how far off I am

Again ....fairness that starts with compassion ....how would you plug that in here .....
 
I've been dipping into this thread, the tiny bit I've read is fascinating but I'd thought that I shouldn't get involved (add opinions) because I haven't read it all... and haven't got time to (or do I??? - I could copy and paste it into my memory stick and read it at leisure back home [solar-panel-fed laptop without Internet connection]). It's been going like wildfire: just over a month and 11+ pages long already. Maybe I shouldn't comment until I've read it all (but by the next time I'm connected, it'll be several pages longer...)

What's decided me to write now is that Carma has always seemed so positive (enthusiastically positive) about poly in the past, has sent me nice, encouraging messages, and is obviously suffering now. So I decided to suggest something. And she herself has beat me to it:
Today I just want to call up Barbie and tell her that I am willing to share, as long as she knows the truth and respects me and my marriage. But how can I do that if Sundance won't tell me directly that he even wants that??? And of course, he will think it's because I want to see Butch, that it's all about me.

[...]

And I'm hella curious about Barbie. :rolleyes: She was really falling in love with my husband. What's so terrible about that? Could we have been on the same team? We sure have something in common. So she bought him gifts -- is that so bad? Did it have to be so secretive? How dumb. I know I overreacted, but it's because he hid things -- which in turn led me to overreact, which led him to hide things...!!!
I haven't read enough to know if you've ever met Barbie. Why don't you make the effort? If you have met her, why not make the effort to get to know her better? I assume that that name, Barbie, is YOUR invention, because you see her as an empty-headed, unreal doll. She's a human being with feelings [and that would be true even if she DID happen to be rather empty-headed], she has - as you point out - fallen in love with your husband. I gather that he has lied to her about you so that you - for her - are also an unreal stick-figure. Give her a chance to meet the real you, to realise just how SD is lying to her. Isn't SHE a victim of his lying, too?

[All the above - and below - is going on the assumption that your version of the facts here is honest and well-balanced. I'm taken some criticism in the past for assuming this. So let me say that I don't assume it. (Neither do I assume the opposite. AAArghhh!) But this would be my advice if your version were 100% spot-on. I can't give any other advice, unless SD and Butch - or Barbie - contribute their versions...]

I think that you should at least consider the following possibilities:

1) That SD doesn't care for Barbie at all, never has. That it was all a calculated plan to manoeuvre you into dropping Butch.

2) That he's gaslighting. [see Magdlyn's post, above] And possibly gaslighting the 2 of you.

3) That he IS cheating on you. I don't know SD, I'm certainly not accusing him of it. But I DO know that many people think like this: "She cheated on me when I was being faithful. Now it's my turn. Serves her right!"

If you can't trust SD not to lie to you, I can only imagine one way (aside from tailing him or hiring a private eye - or waiting for gossip to fall into your lap) for you to dispel (or confirm) these doubts: to talk honestly with the woman. Don't treat her like the enemy... or a doll.

It's not failsafe. She might refuse to stop treating you as the enemy (or a stick figure). But give her that chance.

You yourself pointed out that you were really unhappy before the agreement to go poly. And you're really unhappy now. I was sorry to read that you were giving up on poly (but that's me and my values: they shouldn't condition your choices)... and glad to read that you're at least considering reconsidering.

But do you have the right to "sneak" behind your husband's back and get honest with his gf (or ex-gf)? You're American, right? I believe that this [inalienable] right is anchored in your country's Constitution (or is it the Declaration of Independence [THAT would be fitting, re: polyamory]): "the pursuit of happiness". Go for it, Carma! Goodness knows you deserve it.

+++

Off topic, but I'm listening to this right now and - who knows - it might help. Crank the volume up and have a good cry. (No, not because it's sad, just because it's beautiful).
 
Has Sundance really chosen not to post here or does he simply not know he's being talked about? Maybe he should come here and read all the stuff being said about him, then i bet he'd feel like posting. I know i would.
I know I have suggested that Carma encourage Sundance to post here. He hasn't posted here in a long time. But I can't recall what she said about him doing that. I do agree that we have only been going on one side of the story; it could read quite differently from Sundance's perspective. And we all know that is where a lot of conflict lies for many people in relationships, when there is such a different view of things.
 
I know I have suggested that Carma encourage Sundance to post here. He hasn't posted here in a long time. But I can't recall what she said about him doing that. I do agree that we have only been going on one side of the story; it could read quite differently from Sundance's perspective. And we all know that is where a lot of conflict lies for many people in relationships, when there is such a different view of things.

OK, so Sundance has posted here in the past but has chosen not to anymore? I guess that's on him then.

The thing is (I didn't add before because it's awkward to edit posts on the mobile device), sometimes the "other side of the story" also confirms that the person is an [unflattering ad-hominem].
 
I've mentioned to him to come here -- I have no idea why he won't. He did way back at the beginning. Actually he tends to belittle (/tease?) me for being on here. He thinks it's just another one of my "fickle obsessions." It's true, I have been somewhat of an extremist my whole life, I guess. When I was Catholic, I started getting REALLY religious, even saying the rosary daily. Then I read DAwkins' "The God Delusion" and my faith disintegrated, much to my surprise, actually. Geez, it seemed so logical, but what do I know?! When I read a book I tend to really embrace what it says and I want to try to instill the "experts'" advice. Ok, so I've gotten a little hooked on self-help, what can I say?? Maybe I'm not an "extremist" so much as an "enthusiast?" Yeah, that's more how I see it...

Anyway, he never reads ANY book I recommend. So I'm not surprised he won't come here either. He is not interested in "improving" himself unless it involves weight lifting, which he is 100% committed to.

Fucking incredible that Gaslighting came up here -- I have been having some creepy thoughts about exactly that, myself. The past couple of days I've had some serious suspicions that he has lied to me, and I AM PRETTY SURE I AM RIGHT ON, but I can't prove it and I refuse to sound like some paranoid freak. I also refuse to play detective, how degrading for both of us. But let's face it, a woman knows when she's being lied to. It's in his voice, in his mannerisms, and in some details that I'm not going to bother going into.

He's still swearing he's done with her. Calls her his ex-girlfriend.

I can tell he is waiting to see if I hold to my break up with Butch. I hate this. I hate it that he is putting his relationship with her, back on ME, and he honestly thinks I believe that I have that much power!!!

I am not stupid. I know better. He is just going underground. Just in case? Or because she means more to him than he admits.

Well, time will tell. I am sorry everyone but I just don't feel ready to call her up yet! So much drama it could bring up. My biggest fear???? That she will lie to me, too. At this time I don't think I could take it! My second biggest fear???? That she will ask me to reveal the lies he's told her. And I will betray him. It feels..... wrong. I wish SHE would call ME!!!!

I mean, if I call, I'm not sure I know what I want. The Truth??? To give it??? To get it???? To tell her to back off, or to tell her to go ahead with him, I'm ok with it? Do I want her to get pissed and break up with him, then he'll try and blame me???? I just have to be clear on my motives, before I open up a powder keg with her.

I can edge her out, by pouring on the wifely love, right? He SAYS he's mono. I believe he is -- but I also believe he is trying out the cheating way. IT'S NOT GOING TO HOLD UP. He's smart, but he's going to slip up. Am I waiting, like a snake all coiled up, for him to fuck up so I can say "GOTCHA!"? Yes -- I am. I think once he's called out on his shit he will be forced to change. It worked for me! It's the only thing that worked for me. I had to realize that lying, and its consequences, was hell.

Sometimes I think I am just trying to play God.

What I really am is confused. I don't know what I really want. Yeah, yeah, yeah, I'll call a therapist, I know....

Thank you all for your patience. And MrFFR, for your kindness, :)

OH -- also, the Barbie nickname, I messed up in choosing that. I never meant that she was vacuous or air-headed or a plaything -- at least not consciously! I was ONLY referring to how beautiful she is, seriously everyone. I would change the moniker but I think it's kind of too late now.
 
@Carma -- Have you read this article on gaslighting? That whole "fickle obsessions" statement of his makes me feel like we're on the right track here, that's a really disrespectful way to talk about someone's interests... http://thecurrentconscience.com/blog/2011/09/12/a-message-to-women-from-a-man-you-are-not-“crazy”/

@NK -- Fair enough! :)

@Dh -- Ahh, gotcha.

As for what would count as compassionate fairness, well, I think there are two relevant questions. What do the people involved need from each other? And what are they able and willing to give to each other to help meet those needs? Carma needed poly, so Sun gave her that. Sun needed some emotional barriers between her and Butch, so she gave him that. Now Carma needs honesty between Sun and Barbie, but he won't give her that. Why? Is it because he needs a dishonest relationship with her? But he says he doesn't even care about her! And considering all the agony Carma has gone through because of the lack of honesty, I would certainly see honesty as a need. And it's not like he hasn't had time, this isn't a new situation. So what was the real motive here?
 
Anyway, he never reads ANY book I recommend. So I'm not surprised he won't come here either. He is not interested in "improving" himself unless it involves weight lifting, which he is 100% committed to.

My hubs is the same way. While I will go researching something if I'm interested in it, or am having issues in order to gain some perspective outside of my own head, he just goes with his gut. And his gut is sometimes not a great leader.

The past couple of days I've had some serious suspicions that he has lied to me, and I AM PRETTY SURE I AM RIGHT ON, but I can't prove it and I refuse to sound like some paranoid freak. I also refuse to play detective, how degrading for both of us. But let's face it, a woman knows when she's being lied to. It's in his voice, in his mannerisms, and in some details that I'm not going to bother going into.

I used to feel this way ALL OF THE TIME. And I WAS right. My hubs could never figure out how I knew he was lying... and I never had "proof" so I wouldn't say anything for a long time, but my intuition was recognizing things that my conscious self wouldn't. Finally I would just say something and he would be shocked because it was right on.

Don't play detective. Just TELL him, you feel like he is lying to you, you don't have concrete proof, and you're not going to go looking for it, but you don't believe him and the fact that you don't believe or trust him is destroying the relationship. So he can either come clean, and you can deal, or he can continue and he will lose his marraige. The choice is his.

And then let him make that choice. Honestly Carma, if he is lying to you and continues to lie to you and doesn't do the work to fix things, do you really want to stay with him? Lay everything down and let him decide if he wants to be truthful or not. If he wants to be MARRIED or not.

I know that can seem like a big step, but a relationship without honesty is not only NOT a good place to be, it can destroy your self-worth, self-esteem, your trust in everybody else and a lot of other crap that you may never get back. You are already almost there-- by blaming yourself for his lies :mad:

It's been several years since my hubs finally got honest with me... and I am still fighting to regain trust in him and to really believe what he tells me. I still second guess everything he says, and take most things as they could be true, they might not be.

Some things once they're broken are never the same again.
 
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Some things once they're broken are never the same again.

How true.

Well, they won't be the same, anyway. I have to figure out what I want. One thing I do know is, I don't want to live with someone who cannot be honest with me.

I don't know if I want to go forward in this marriage. Both mono and poly need honesty. We've both crossed over into lying to each other. I was honest about my relationship once we opened up. But clearly Sundance chose to lie both in poly AND now in mono!

Sundance said all he wants is me. Well, here I am, 100%, so why is he going off to be with her for two hours yesterday???? Then lying about it????

He's probably lying to her, too. I'm sure she thinks I've gone back with Butch.

WHY, though??? Why is he choosing to lie, when he could just say, "Honey, I want us to have an open marriage, afterall." Because he's so afraid SHE won't go along if SHE knows the truth? Annabel asked the same question. Why??? Why would he need a dishonest relationship with her???? If she loves him so much, and she knows he doesn't want to leave his family, then what would be the problem for her to know the whole truth? Besides, if she thinks he's back with her because I'm back with Butch, shouldn't that raise a red flag for her - "He's only with me to get even with her!"?

Someone said awhile back that maybe he is planning to leave the marriage, just needs to get some things in order first. I think he just wants to have TWO options, just in case one doesn't work out. Well, that doesn't show much faith in our relationship, does it? And if he doesn't have faith in it, it's gonna be pretty hard for me to carry it all by myself. :(

I'm going to read the article.

Thanks for your comments Minxa. Very helpful! I get really scared when he denies things when I call him out. I don't know, it's just freaky when someone can boldfaced lie to you. To protect himself? From what? He knows how I drink the truth down like water to a person dying of thirst!

Just realized honesty really IS the oxygen in a relationship.

No wonder I feel (PHYSICALLY) like I can't breathe!!!
 
WHY, though??? Why is he choosing to lie, when he could just say, "Honey, I want us to have an open marriage, afterall." Because he's so afraid SHE won't go along if SHE knows the truth? Annabel asked the same question. Why??? Why would he need a dishonest relationship with her???? If she loves him so much, and she knows he doesn't want to leave his family, then what would be the problem for her to know the whole truth? Besides, if she thinks he's back with her because I'm back with Butch, shouldn't that raise a red flag for her - "He's only with me to get even with her!"?

Asking 'Why?' here is a fool's game. It's certainly a natural question to ask, and to really need answers for. But it distracts you from making real changes in you and asking for real changes in Sundance and your relationship with him.

Also, I strongly suspect that Sundance can't answer this question for you right now, and maybe ever. I don't believe that he knows whats going on for him. From your descriptions, it sounds like he is re-enacting some very old patterns. (I would guess you are too, btw.) I have to agree with DH that he's not an evil genius with a plan but someone profoundly confused, unhappy, and in pain and relying on old ideas, old patterns unconsciously. This does not excuse his actions - he did consciously choose to lie to you and Barbie. That does not make what he is doing less dangerous and disturbing.

But someone acting out even partly unconsciously usually does not 'know' why they do what they do. It's a fool's game to even ask them why - they don't know and, until the hard work of understanding themselves has begun, they often don't even have a clue that they don't know.

So don't ask why. Ask for and look for results. Is he lying to you or not? Is he open with you or not? Is he telling her the truth or not? Asking 'why' just sucks you into the maelstorm, spins you about and leaves you even further from getting actual change accomplished. Your questions can't be answered right now. That is hard. You desperately want to understand. But you're not going to get answers right now, and maybe ever. Focusing on the 'why' won't get you to where you need to go.
 
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