breakups and the bigger picture

sparklepop

New member
Hi guys, I hope you are all well. Ah, the life of Sparklepop is a right pile of shite right now. ~grins~ Get your popcorn.

I'm looking for perspectives and advice on navigating breakups in poly. Also, the concept of 'pseudo-veto'... where your partner never outrightly requests that you end a relationship; but you end up feeling like keeping the extra relationship may cost you your current one.

A synopsis, if you want it.

My GF and I have had a rough year. She broke up with her main secondary of 2 years in January and was devastated, depressed, distant. In May, she broke up with her other secondary, of 7 months. This time, for some reason, she pretended she was fine. Both scenarios had different impacts on us as a couple. The first breakup created a feeling of loneliness and neglect in me after some time. The second created none of that; but I wasn't able to be supportive enough, because I couldn't see her pain.

My own secondary relationship of 7 months ended a couple of days ago. I am devastated. We had a rare and deeply special relationship that neither of us wanted to end. During the lead-up to this, I tried to remember how I felt during GF's breakups, but I'm not sure how successful this was. My GF voiced her feelings of neglect last week and I'm glad that she did. I arranged some one on one time with her and vowed not to talk about it as much.

So, it seems that my GF and I have both now been on each side of the breakup coin and we're trying to learn from that. What we've found so far is:
- we will become distracted during turmoil / breakups; it's to be expected
- we should speak up if we feel neglected
- we need to try not to have the debunk 'your relationship made me feel x y z insecurity' on the day of the breakup
- we need to administer care without losing ourselves; similarly, accept care without sucking our partner dry

What are your thoughts on this? How to practically make this happen?

The next issue... is why these relationships end and what we do afterwards.

In the past, we've both ended some relationships partly or largely because of their impact on our relationship. I'm currently seeing a new perspective on this. My secondary relationship ended because I was involved in a triad with her and her girlfriend, but no longer have feelings for her girlfriend. She decided to stop, because it was clear that her girlfriend was going through too much hurt for us to continue. But now that I've been there, I guess I'm feeling... sticky... about doing that to someone else. At the same time, I would never, ever want to hurt my GF. I adore her.

By some force of divine intervention, GF's most recent ex emailed her out of the blue, asking to reconnect, the very night I broke up with my secondary. It really got me thinking. Prior to this, she'd stayed away from him post-breakup because she didn't think I could handle it (and I probably couldn't have) - and because she didn't want to get attached to him again. They broke up in the first place partly because of my issues with him / impact on our relationship, and partly because they had a troublesome, high-NRE, time-sucking, emotion-draining connection that was driving her nuts.

I never close doors to exes; but my GF struggles with this. She doesn't want me to keep the door open with my most recent ex. I understand this and don't want to put her through turmoil. GF mostly approved of my ex; moreso than my other partners. She now feels that my ex messed me around during our relationship and is very angry about how she treated me during the breakup (my ex cut off communication for a week so that she could think, which was agonising, and avoided confirming her decision to split until I pressed her for it). GF and my ex had a... volatile.. conversation and things are on very bad terms between them. Finally, my GF is angry with me because I actually accepted my ex's reasons easily. During our breakup talk, I understood everything, felt how genuinely cut up she was, understood why she had hidden from making the decision, how she'd tried to distance herself from me to make it easier to forget me. I don't see the point in hanging onto anger. GF feels resentful that she has spent all this time supporting me and hearing my upset, anger, etc. and feels I let my ex get off far too easily. She said that not only would me getting back involved with her effect our relationship; but would also be unhealthy for me.

I am wondering...

- What constitutes as being 'bad' for an existing relationship, regarding extra relationships?
- How can we avoid neglecting our relationship during breakups, or the lead-up to breakups?
- How can we ensure that we provide immediate care to the heartbroken partner, without finding ourselves swallowed by their grief?
- How and *when* can the non-grieving partner voice their own feelings on that former relationship, to eradicate resentment and strengthen the existing relationship?
- Would you end a relationship because your partner was unhappy about it?

Thank you everyone.
 
All I can say after reading all that, is that it seems you two really spend a huge amount of energy worrying about and attempting to manage and control each other's other relationships, instead the one you have with each other. No wonder there are sticky issues and questions that come up when another person enters the picture - you've both zapped each other's agency and ability to choose for yourselves.

It does seem like you're starting to see that, so keep looking. What's that about? Can you let go of the reins, and trust each other to run your own lives and manage your own relationships? The only people who should have a say about a relationship are the people in it, not anyone else on the periphery. Can you be brave enough to just be with whatever shows up and handle it without setting down rules and expectations?
 
I totally agree with nycindie. I cannot comment on most of what you have said because I don't allow one relationship to affect the other to the extent that you and your girlfriend seem to do. My advice is to keep out of each other's relationships. You two may need an explicit rule that limits how, when and where you can discuss other relationships and perhaps if you have that much trouble from handling multiple romantic relationships, you should scale it back to something more like swinging, where you don't have that emotional attachment to others.
 
All I can say after reading all that, is that it seems you two really spend a huge amount of energy worrying about and attempting to manage and control each other's other relationships, instead the one you have with each other. No wonder there are sticky issues and questions that come up when another person enters the picture - you've both zapped each other's agency and ability to choose for yourselves.

It does seem like you're starting to see that, so keep looking. What's that about? Can you let go of the reins, and trust each other to run your own lives and manage your own relationships? The only people who should have a say about a relationship are the people in it, not anyone else on the periphery. Can you be brave enough to just be with whatever shows up and handle it without setting down rules and expectations?

Thank you indie.

This is what I am wondering, as you've pointed out. I want to work together as partners, without controlling and interfering with each other's relationships. I don't want us to prevent each other from making our own decisions. I don't want to be in a relationship where we completely neglect each other because we're constantly immersed in other people; but I do want to be in a relationship where we support each other's decisions. Finding that balance seems to be tricky. I will think on what you've said and also show my GF.
 
I agree that each relationship is individual-but there is overlap. How much overlap, depends upon the people involved.
It would be flat ludicrous to suggest that problems in one of my relationships won't impact the other-we all live together and we are raising children together.

THAT SAID-when Maca had a gf who was toxic for the rest of us-we simply declined to have anything to do with her. HIS CHOICE when/where/how he went to spend time with her. But-no bringing toxic people to our home.

As for NRE,
I quite sincerely have no patience for it and I don't abide by the "let your partner enjoy it" adage either.
I think any person who gets so googly eyed over ANYTHING that they neglect their already agreed to responsibilities is being irresponsible and deserves to suffer the consequences of that choice.
I don't allow myself to neglect my responsibilities and I expect my partners to manage their emotions so that they don't either. If they can't do that-they need not remain my partners-and that includes my husband. It is in fact the experience of watching him fling himself into NRE and make everyone miserable-only to repeatedly realize he had nothing in common with the various women he did this with-that led me to "FUCK OFF-you have responsibilities and you damn well better meet them before you go running off to fuck" attitude.
Which has stayed with me and probably always will.
 
Hi LR... hahaha... whoo, the other side of the coin then? I must admit... I'm not a fan of all-destroying NRE either. Even at the height of it, I don't feel that I neglect anything. It's when trouble comes that my life tends to be effected.

We don't have dates at our house, so that luckily solves that problem. I agree that if we don't like each other's choice, we simply don't have to be involved with them. I'm definitely happy with that and have been in the past.

The main problem I'm having is that 'drama', or turmoil, between myself and my secondary is seen as being bad for my primary relationship. I don't really know how to look at this. Conflict in relationships is inevitable. At least, I think it is. I'm really not sure how much is too much. In seven months, my secondary and I had about three larger issues; the most recent of which, obviously, being a break up, so that knocked me out of action for a week or two.

Perhaps external relationships only effect us as much as we all let them. Perhaps if we're sick of hearing about the conflict between a partner and their secondary, we can voice that opinion. If we think the NRE is effected us, we can voice that opinion. But perhaps outside of that we have to let each other make our own decisions. I'm not really sure where the line is. Perhaps it will be revealed over time.
 
Yeah, there's no hard strict line-each person had to decide.

I have a longer life span for listening than Maca for sure. He tells me "no GG talk today". LOL!
Which works fine.

Sometimes he will listen and have good suggestions, some days he just wants to NOT.

GG pretty much doesn't care, he will listen to me talk about anything at all.

I am in between.
 
I think any person who gets so googly eyed over ANYTHING that they neglect their already agreed to responsibilities is being irresponsible and deserves to suffer the consequences of that choice.

Yikes!

People change over time and sometimes quite abruptly. Sometimes a persons focus changes to such a degree that their previous interests take a back seat or are removed from their list of concerns entirely. Relationships are not mechanically static nor are emotions determined by contracts.

I personally find little to no value to someone doing something for me simply because they made some kind of previous agreement with me. I want my partners to enjoy their time with me and if they are not enjoying it, I want them to go do what they would rather be doing. They are my romantic partners, not my indentured employees.
 
Yikes!

People change over time and sometimes quite abruptly. Sometimes a persons focus changes to such a degree that their previous interests take a back seat or are removed from their list of concerns entirely. Relationships are not mechanically static nor are emotions determined by contracts.

I personally find little to no value to someone doing something for me simply because they made some kind of previous agreement with me. I want my partners to enjoy their time with me and if they are not enjoying it, I want them to go do what they would rather be doing. They are my romantic partners, not my indentured employees.

I was hoping you'd chime in, Marcus. ~grins~ How the hell do you manage that? Is it a woman thing, wanting to be the centre of attention all the damn time, hm? ~winks~

I was saying to my GF this morning that perhaps it's just time to accept that she gets lost in NRE and I get lost in turmoil. As long as we can try to communicate and help each other when things are bad, cheer each other on when things are good, things should be smoother.
 
Marcus, i think LR is talking about basic household and mundane responsibilities, not "i am not sure i still want the same things out of this relationship as you do anymore" artificial "obligations". If you share certain basic ne essities such as the mortgage, and one member of the household flakes because they spent their whole paycheck on some kind of bender, then everyone who lives there is affected in a detrimental way. It is not ok for NRE-person to coast along and have everyone else pick up their slack. Not everyone's finances are separate, and most people can't just pack up their shit at the drop of a hat and relocate. When you are one person such as yourself, you only need to think of what is best for you. But when you make an Adult Decision that consciously involves joint efforts, it is very sociopathic to arbitrarily decide that you will do as you please in the moment because "people change" and "relationships are not static".

Unfortunately, people act that way all the time, which is why the world is full of lawyers, contracts, fine-print, and red-tape. In my lab, students are all "of age", but because they cannot all be trusted to do the right thing, there are "cleanup points" and "safety points" to be lost. The safety points are divided into individual and group safety points, so that if something is done wrong and we can't identify who is responsible, everyone in that section loses group safety points. You would think everyone wants to be safe, right? No, there are quite a few who want to argue and avoid accountability and do the whole "harvard-please" thing, and that lowest denominator sets the tone no matter how perfect and mature and responsible everyone else is. If someone was a domestic partner or member of a household and they pull that crap, they drag everyone down. So, no. It is NOT okay for you to take the money you would ordinarily use to pay the electric bill or car insurance and use it for a weekend getaway with your new squeeze, i don't care how many epiphanies you've had or how recently you've had them. :)
 
Marcus, i think LR is talking about basic household and mundane responsibilities, not "i am not sure i still want the same things out of this relationship as you do anymore" artificial "obligations". ...So, no. It is NOT okay for you to take the money you would ordinarily use to pay the electric bill or car insurance and use it for a weekend getaway with your new squeeze, i don't care how many epiphanies you've had or how recently you've had them.

That's not what I took away from her statement, so I could certainly be focusing on a different area than she intended.

On the topic you picked up on: When it comes to depending on each other financially or other more contractual agreements, I don't have much of an opinion. It is my goal to avoid becoming dependent upon my loved ones for survival or basic function if I can. Currently I am employed enough and we (IV, CV, and I) have such a low cost of living that I could probably float this for a while even if both of them decided they wanted to have a gambling problem or snort all of their money off of the asses of strippers, or spend it for a weekend getaway with a new squeeze.

This won't happen, IV is not a flake like that. If it did I suppose she would understand that I'd be pissed and that our roommate arrangement would be dissolved. It's a tough hypothetical to imagine.
 
I was saying to my GF this morning that perhaps it's just time to accept that she gets lost in NRE and I get lost in turmoil.

Recognizing the fact that someone has a strong reaction to NRE is probably a good first step to acceptance. Then making decisions regarding how you want to associate with someone who has this trait is next. What shouldn't come into the equation is the feeling of entitlement to that person and the illusion that you have some say over what they do with their time. The entitlement mentality is hard to get past, it is reinforced in the environment (at least mine) at every turn. So coming to terms with the fact that I am not entitled to someone spending their time on me the way that I would like has been a journey.

Most people don't seem to recognize they are not entitled to this, but I am of the opinion that it will lead to healthier relationships in general.
 
GF feels resentful that she has spent all this time supporting me and hearing my upset, anger, etc. and feels I let my ex get off far too easily.

So your GF finds providing you with support/nurture in your times of need a "chore?" And that if her support helps you let go of the ex in a healthier for you way the ex "gets off easy" rather than "you are able to leave healthier?"

She expects you to "punish" the ex somehow for "making" you feel yucky so your GF's time investment in supporting you to heal is "worth the bother?"

If she is not willing to be tending to you in a break up, she could say "I'm sorry. I am not willing to tend to you in a break up at this time" and then not do it.
It could solve her resentment that she's "HAD to spend all this time supporting you, listening to your upset, etc" if she would state her willing/not willing and then just NOT do what she is not really willing to not do or do MORE than she is willing to do. She could respect her own limits.

She said that not only would me getting back involved with her effect our relationship; but would also be unhealthy for me.

Was that supposed to be a threat? :(

Or was that just her stating her own limits up front this time?

You getting involved in ANY outside relationship affects "our relationship" because it changes the polymath. You breaking up with people changes the polymath.
Whether you practice an interdependent model or independent model of relationship -- at the very least it affects the time available to share with her / and sex health risks, right? When things change, ripple effects are felt. Limit of the Universe.

What constitutes as being 'bad' for an existing relationship, regarding extra relationships?

Bad how? Like going down poly hell? Or something else in some other area other than emotional/time management? Like they close joint checking accounts without you knowing to give it to the new sweetie? Trust things like that?

All relationships use up human and non-human resources. Spending more resources than you actually have is "bad" -- be it time, money, sleep, energy, skills, knowledge, willingness, trust, goodwill, etc. Spreads people too thin.

How can we avoid neglecting our relationship during breakups, or the lead-up to breakups?

Could become aware of each of your habits in break up times -- what the strengths/weaknesses are and what is needed at what stage. What you could do different, what GF could do different.

Could give the partner a heads up whether you are the breaker-upper or the breaker-uppee as soon as possible.

Could let them know what you need and ask if they are willing to provide it.

Could ask them if they know what they need at this time and state what you are willing to do/provide.

Could let them know how you see this will impact your time together over the next little while.

Could know and state the changing wants, needs, and limits -- nobody can mind reader.

How can we ensure that we provide immediate care to the heartbroken partner, without finding ourselves swallowed by their grief?

Could have good boundaries and tell the person when the load is too much for you.

Could encourage them to share with OTHERS because your own bucket is now full.

Could sign up to be the Friday person. But not every day of the week person. Could respect your own limits.

If you have failed to created poly community -- friends, family, etc. Well, you are responsible for your own emergency preparedness. Go MAKE some friends and create your poly-safeword people so when the fit hits the shan, you don't have the added burden of "I have nobody I can talk to about this locally." Online help is great and all but online strangers do not bring you your fav funny movie and your fav soup and sit there and watch it with you.

Could accept that sometimes the ministry of presence means being willing to dwell in someone else's pain so they don't have to do it alone. And yeah -- it's not a COMFY thing. It's a skill to be able to empathize, sit with them for a time, then walk away and let someone else take a turn with them so you can go off to do whatever it is you have to do and not be all bogged down in it. You don't get to get to grow the skill if you don't expose yourself to actually having to exercise it. And even when you do have the skill -- it's still not COMFY to do. Nobody goes "Oh, yay a grieving hard time! Whee!"

Practical suggestions here. Could OFFER what you are willing to do and not wait for the broken to tell you. Be nice if they could, but they sometimes cannot yet.

How and *when* can the non-grieving partner voice their own feelings on that former relationship, to eradicate resentment and strengthen the existing relationship?

Could bring resentments up earlier and not let it grow to levels like that in the first place.

Could check in for relationship maintanence periodically -- not just when things are crap. Strengthen all along, not just after things are breaking/broke.

Could ask the grieving person something like "Could you be willing/able to talk about my end of things? When would be a good time?" and not just dump it on their head in the midst of crisis. Make an appointment.

If I were keeping silent and let "ugh" build up to resentment levels and did not nip it in the bud? It is SO not the time to drag all that out to DH when he's in crisis. I'd be ADDING to his problems at hand rather than TAKING AWAY from his problems. It's not loving or kind to do that. If I sat on it that long I could sit on it a few more days/weeks so I'm not pinging him when he's already down.

Would you end a relationship because your partner was unhappy about it?

Depends on why partner is unhappy about it. Maybe I'm too close to see something that DH can see or he became aware of. I'd be willing to hear the reason. I'm not willing to just break up with the person, but I'd be willing to hear the reason.

Galagirl
 
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Yikes!

People change over time and sometimes quite abruptly. Sometimes a persons focus changes to such a degree that their previous interests take a back seat or are removed from their list of concerns entirely. Relationships are not mechanically static nor are emotions determined by contracts.

I personally find little to no value to someone doing something for me simply because they made some kind of previous agreement with me. I want my partners to enjoy their time with me and if they are not enjoying it, I want them to go do what they would rather be doing. They are my romantic partners, not my indentured employees.

Of course they change-we all change.
But-if you have already accepted obligations (such as children, a mortgage, a pet etc) then you need to uphold them until they are finished.
If you have agreed to obligations such as a romance, safer sex, date night or WHATEVER-even if it's coffee on MOndays with your best friend, you need to fulfil it.

That's where the communication detail comes in-if you don't want to do it anymore, you don't just stop. You SAY SO.

my bf and I are currently not sexually involved. Nothing to do with poly or Maca. It's a personal preference of my own that has nothing to do with ANYONE but him and I.
I didn't just stop having sex with him 6 months ago. I communicated what has changed and why it isn't working for me right now.

Not because he said I have to tell him.
Because that's caring behavior.

We've been in SOME sort of relationship for 20 years.
Just friends, then fwb, then just friends, then lovers, then dating, then D/s, then....
with each, there are changed to what obligations we each agree to take on.
But we don't just dump the agreements and leave one another ahnging.

Likewise-with my friends, I have a friend who I met 25+ years ago. About 18 years ago we were best friends and had been for some time, when he married. She hated me. We talked and agreed to not have contact-for the sake of their relationship. But he didn't just DISAPPEAR.
3 years ago they separated and started divorce proceedings, he contacted me and expressed an interest in reconnecting. I was thrilled. But I didn't just up and cancel my date nights with Maca so I could go meet up with this guy. I arranged my calendar to include this new person without dropping my responsibilities to my family, lovers, friends, etc that are currently in my life.

Too often there seems this "oh well I can't help it, it's NRE" excuse for just walking away and expecting that the people at home with pick up the pieces of your trail of tears for you-and wait til you reappear.
That's just fucking irresponsible and rude.

If you can't AT LEAST tell me, "hey, I'd really like to free up my Friday nights, how can we do that without you having to rearrange our babysitters, work schedules, household responsibilities on your own"?
Yeah no.

I expect my partners, friends and family and even my kids to be more considerate. Not just to me, but to PEOPLE in general.

Hell-I walk out of dr offices for that shit. If my appointment was scheduled for 11, and you can't even have the dignity of having the secretary let me know you are running late-don't expect me to be waiting at 11:30. It's all good if you are running late-but your time isn't more precious than mine. I am expected to call if I need to alter times, and I expect to be notified if they do.
 
Too often there seems this "oh well I can't help it, it's NRE" excuse for just walking away and expecting that the people at home with pick up the pieces of your trail of tears for you-and wait til you reappear.
That's just fucking irresponsible and rude.

I'll be honest with you, this whole post just seems like you ranting because you've got something on your mind and this thread is as good a place as any to blow off some steam. I don't have a problem with it, but you quoted me at the top of this rant which makes me think I have somehow deeply offended you because of the chores in your house not getting done or not calling you if I'm going to miss a coffee date.

How did the volume get turned up so high on this conversation?

I at no point addressed the courtesy involved in when a person changes their worldview or interests. My presumption is that you aren't dating self-obsessed twats and that your partners understand that when a lunch date is ditched that a phone call is courtesy. If you date people like that I don't know what to tell you... but none of my posts were designed to address the communication habits of dim-wits. If that is what is being discussed I don't have a lot of experience to draw on.

First I'm a sociopath and now I'm a bad date. Did I miss a meeting? What the heck are you guys talking about?
 
Marcus-I am sorry if it came off that way.
In all sincerity-I took about 3 minutes to read your reply (never made it through the rest) and wrote a response-then ran back to a houseful of wild kids. :)
(good wild-not bad wild) in 83 degree weather (very unusual for us).
I wasn't really ranting-just trying very hard to type my thoughts really fast without it coming off as half a sentence. :)

I USUALLY take time to put in pertinent smiley faces and parentheses with reference to my attitude while writing-but I was being lazy today with the computer and focused more on chasing my 2 year old grandson (when on earth did all of the energy get shifted from me to him?!?!?)

Anyway-it wasn't meant to come off as a pissing fest at all. In fact I happen to enjoy dialoguing with others when you are too-because all in all, I agree with what you write-even though our situations are so different.
I can totally see myself in a world without children or spouse(s) and living my life more independently as you do. I think it would have been a very valid choice for me. :) And I like your ethics.
As galagirl says "hot ethics".

at any rate-I gotta run (again) and get kids tucked into bed. :)
(I would post on other threads if there were any going-but it seems pretty quiet this week)
 
(and I only quoted it so I could see it fyi-while I wrote the first paragraph-the rest wasn't aimed at you at all-as I said-dysfunctionally rushing! Hopefully no harm done. I wouldn't suggest you are a bad date-haven't a clue-but if you ever find yourself in alaska-we could test the theory lol)
 
It's all very well talking about how you abandon hierarchical relationship structures and the like but when you completely ignore the fact that people have joint responsibilities that create obligations and are a priority. That isn't privileging a relationship, it's taking care of your shit. Once you have formed these obligations and responsibilities, you can't just take this hippyish approach suggested where relationships are fluid and change and you just have to go with the flow. No, those responsibilities always come first.

If you truly abandon hierarchical relationship structures, you would not share a home or any other financial responsibilities with a partner because of the inherent priority those obligations take over everything else. But living with someone you love is awesome, so why not stop being so adamant about abandoning hierarchy, and admit that you prioritise your obligations rather than people. That does mean a lot of the time, things that involve the person/people you live with and the children you raise will come first simply because of the obligation, not because you love that partner or those partners' more, but really, that is just practical and how life works.
 
I wouldn't suggest you are a bad date-haven't a clue-but if you ever find yourself in alaska-we could test the theory lol)

Hey wait a minute! We should start collecting data from coast to coast. Marcus, I wouldn't think you'd be a bad date at all -- in fact, quite the opposite -- but just so I can know for sure, let me know if you ever come to NYC. I'd like to test the theory here!
 
Marcus, I wouldn't think you'd be a bad date at all -- in fact, quite the opposite -- but just so I can know for sure, let me know if you ever come to NYC. I'd like to test the theory here!
LovingRadiance said:
I wouldn't suggest you are a bad date-haven't a clue-but if you ever find yourself in alaska-we could test the theory lol

:D the next time I'm heading to NYC or Alaska I'm going to be looking some folks up!
 
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