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Old 02-10-2011, 11:29 AM
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MrFarFromRight MrFarFromRight is offline
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Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Smack in the middle of The Spanish Revolution!
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I've rated this thread ***** because I think it deals with a problem that most of us have waded through, are wading through, or will wade through in the future. I empathise a lot with Pupurea, and - although I agree with redpepper that this isn't a polyamorous relationship, I disagree with her that the blame lies with Pupurea. If A offers B love (whether pure polyamorous love or a less-than-perfect kind) - and I'm sure that the man in this triangle isn't JUST interested in sex (or Pupurea would know it) - and B rejects that love, who is being closed? OK, so A is cheating on C. And in a way, B is cheating on C as well. And let's repeat this to make sure we're all agreed: this isn't polyamory. But I do think that it's love, even if I personally have decided never again to have a sculking, hidden relationship.

[Quote from one of my children's stories:
ďI'm not willing to wait around for anybody to notice me. Iím not willing to wait until Iím acceptable. Iíve learned that Iím too important for that. Oh, Iím important to you, Iím important to Maeve; but thatís not what Iím talking about. Maeve helped me find this out, and youíve helped as well. But if I lost the both of you, I'd still have learned my lesson: I'm important to myself. Too important to hide in any corners until the respectable people are out of the way, like Iíve been doing with Ernestine, Gladys, and Primrose. I want to be proud of all my friends. And I want them to be proud of me... I canít offer you an easier choice than your father has. Iím sorry..." - Ella Of The Cinders]

If Love is infinite, shouldn't we love the non-polys as well? OK, OK, it doesn't have to be sexually...


Quote:
Originally Posted by Purpurea View Post
I was married last year when I met someone else whom I felt so much love for, that I finally didn't want to hide any more. My husband couldn't stand it and broke up with me, calling me ruthless and selfish for not respecting his wish to have a monogamous relationship with me. The other person had another close relationship with some other girl, claiming to love both of us equally much. I admit that I felt jealous in the beginning, but it felt good and right to finally overcome this feeling and allow him the freedom to share his love with whomever he felt like. [...] Once again I had to face jealousy from being put into second place [...]
I'd like to take up this point of jealousy, because it's a very sticky issue.

In my opinion, the first time you use this word, it's perfectly correct. Jealousy as meaning "I don't want to share you with anyone else" / "I want all of your love for ME". Or even not "I don't want..." but "I hurt when..."

But the second case seems of a different class to me. Here it's a case of "If I'm willing / really want to love you without limits, why do you relegate me to second-best?" And - in Purpurea's case, "You allow yourself to cheat, and allow her to believe that she has won. But you let me know that I have lost." Is this a real case of jealousy. Or is it a wounded sense of justice?

Allow me to give an example from my own past. If you don't like long, boring stories, skip to the next comment!
Long before the days of polyamory, I had an "open relationship" with M. She lived in Germany and I in Spain. I made several visits to Germany so that I was spending perhaps 3 months each year there, and she spent - in all - perhaps 3 months each year in Spain. So we saw each other about 6 months each year. Because I wanted her to be happy and feel fulfilled, I was actually happy each time she wrote to me to say that she'd fallen in love. My attitude was: "If I can't be with her, at least she can share love with somebody else."

Whenever I fell in love with someone else (and noticed that it was reciprocated), I let them know that I was already in a long-term, important relationship; that I wasn't cheating on M, because I was unwilling to do so (lie to her); that I would be delighted if the new love could grow to equal (not "rival") the already established one in strength and importance, but if she (the new one) had any plans to "win" me away from M, she should forget them... or we should remain "just" good friends.
While camping on the beach in Spain (with a female friend-not-lover), I met a German guy, H, who (judging by my friend's and other women's reactions) seemed quite attractive to women... and who lived less than 100km from M. I liked him, too (this is important) and thought that M would like him. Whether or not that "like" had a sexual aspect to it was up to them and perfectly OK by me, either way. So - once again in Germany - I introduced them to each other.

On one of H's visits to M (and me), we spent the night in the same bed, with M in the middle. On waking, we had a tickling/stroking session. And then M suggested that we make "suÔss" [Swiss] for breakfast. This is a Catalan speciality: thick hot chocolate with cold whipped cream piled up on top. Traditionally with sprinked sugar, though M and I substituted honey. H seemed interested and we assigned each person a task: I would make the chocolate, M would nip out to the shop and buy some whipping cream, and H would whip it. M (who tends to be impatient) said, "Well, what are we waiting for? Let's do it!" So I jumped out of bed (there's more to Love than bed), went down to the kitchen, and started to make the chocolate. And waited. And waited. And waited. And went upstairs to ask an embarrassed pair why they weren't downstairs, the chocolate was cooling off and the cream was still in the shops, unwhipped.

I don't know how far they got in their intimacies without me, and I honestly don't care. I was miffed that M had hurried me out of bed because she was impatient for suÔss, and then the both of them had acted like "well now he's gone..."

On a later occasion, while M was going through a crisis - literally on the point of going mad with grief over another business - and treating me like shit [she later said to me: "J, you know, the only reason why I'm throwing all this shit at you is because I've got a lot that I need to unload, and you're the only one in my life who I know loves me enough to take it all and still love me..."], H came for another visit. And it was "Oh, H! How wonderful that you're here! How glad I am to see you!"... and so on (while I - who was gently trying to nurse her through her crisis - was "Oh, you!" [you shit...])
At one point, when I let her know that I was pretty pissed off about this imbalance, she accused me of jealousy.
[Yes, Dear People, this is the point I've been labouring towards!]
"Jealousy???" I replied. "I'm happy that you're feeling better. I'm happy that H has come here. And I'm happy that he can make you feel better. Because I really do want you to feel better than you have been recently... But I feel that it's very unfair that I - who have stood by you through this whole Tiefpunkt and been supportive - am getting shit while H (who's a very likable guy, but light-and-easy and hardly the most dependable... and is here for a weekend) is God's gift to you. It's not jealousy: it's a feeling of being treated unfairly and shabbily."

Epilogue: After 6 1/2 years - during which M and I had both had other lovers, M declared (during a period when she actually had another lover and I didn't) that she wanted to put the relationship on a different footing - a monogamous one.
I replied: "You make your own decisions. I refuse to impose limits on you, and I won't accept limits on my love."

There were - of course - other issues involved. Among others, she was going through another crisis. [Amazing coincidence: she had to say goodbye to her car (would never have passed the T‹F, road-worthiness test), her flat, her hopes of finding a new place with her beloved downstairs neighbour and her children, her studies, and her therapy group... all on exactly the same day. I was hoping that when she woke up on the next day and discovered that life still went on - and was worth living - things could only get better.]

Shortly before that fateful deadline, she decided to end our relationship.
__________________
If I can't dance, I want no part in your Revolution.
- Emma Goldman Anarchist and Polyamorous par excellence
The person who says something is impossible should not interrupt the person who is doing it.
- old Chinese proverb
And the day came when the risk to remain tight in a bud was more painful than the risk it took to blossom.
~ Anais Nin
I'd rather have a broken heart / Than have a heart of stone.
- from "Boundless Love (A Polyamory Song)" by Jimmy Hollis i Dickson

Last edited by Rarechild; 02-13-2011 at 12:10 AM. Reason: one right after t'other
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