Creating healthy boundaries and distance after the fact

Farmer: My anchor partner of 10+ years; engaged and planning a life together that will soon include marriage and kids. The hinge of our V.
Red: Meta, with partner since July; LDR. Deeply monogamous at heart with anxiety issues.

Initially when this started, Red was already head over heels for Farmer, but started to show an interest in me as well. After a few visits with all three of us, it was obvious to me that my feelings for her were completely platonic and something about the way she acted made me rather anxious myself. It hurt her, because the only way she saw this 'working out' was if we were all seeing each other so it was 'equal' and that we could all build a life together. I was not comfortable with that kind of future at the time (I had only known her two months) and said so. As a result, she had a breakdown and nearly broke up with Farmer. A day later it was like the breakdown hadn't happened and things were 'fine'.

Since then, about a month or two ago, Farmer had a talk with Red about 'where things are going'. Farmer told her that the way their relationship was right now was all he could give, that eventually she would want more from him that he couldn't give (as she's monogamous) and they would probably break up. The talk seemed to go well; Red had just started Wellbutin for her anxiety and Farmer was pleased, thinking that the meds were helping.

Red has had a history of things that smack to me of passive aggressive, controlling or bad-boundary setting behaviour. Not only ignoring boundaries, but not really being able to set any for herself either. Examples: getting upset when partner is away from his phone for an hour or two (particularly when he is with me), asking him to tell her when he is going to be away from his phone at home, shutting down when something upsets her but won't tell him what's wrong or respond to affection, reckless behaviour like speeding, getting upset if he 'chooses me' over her with something, like driving home with me instead of her (instead of asking him). She also has often gotten sad at Farmer since I told Red we could only be platonic that she's scared I don't like her or want her around. She even has implied this to me on several occasions, despite me telling her that I do not dislike her.

However I have hit a breaking point with her behaviour during visits. She often says she is excited to see me but her actions here don't reflect that at all. She has moments where she shuts down completely and ignores us both until she is alone with Farmer; often this results in him comforting her, cuddling, and having sex... without me. He has told me that if they are cuddling I can just join too. But when I do this, Red's mood persists and she does not get happy until she manages to get partner alone (which has often resulted in sex). We usually have sex as a group with Farmer as a hinge during visits so no one feels left out and I thought this was fine. But sometimes Red will say she felt left out anyways regardless of her level of her participation or Farmer's attention to her, if he focuses on only me for any amount of time. If Farmer and I had sex without her during a visit (which we do not do) she would be HUGELY upset, so I am feeling really hurt that she continues to think this is fine to do to me.

Now, I have offered them alone time during visits. But Red always says 'No, no... I don't want you to feel left out! I would feel bad!' Well this is starting to seem very insincere to me because I offer alone time and she turns it down, but then it happens anyway but in a way where I have no ability to consent to it or negotiate something fair.

Farmer is always apologetic about it after it happens and offers to make it up to me, however Red acts as if nothing happened/nothing were wrong after and is instead usually pretty happy.

Last visit it happened twice. In the same day. The second time Red left the room crying out of no where and did so for over an hour while Farmer comforted her and then they had sex. She was thinking of breaking up with him again, wants us to treat her like a live-in partner when she visits and not like a guest, but also doesn't want to us to talk about our future in front of her because it hurts her. She thinks if Farmer hadn't be dating me when they met that they would have a shot at a future together (Farmer thinks things would be good for a while, but ultimately his non-monogamy would get in the way anyways). When they finally came back to bed I was more distraught than I expected and had to excuse myself.

Farmer came to check on me and filled me in on some of their talk. I cried a bit and said how much it was hurting me to have this happen every visit. He comforted me and we talked briefly but we went back to bed where Red mumbled an apology.

Basically since then I have informed Farmer that I can't do group visits anymore. Red's anxiety, while I understand her emotions may be valid, the way she reacts to them are not only unhealthy, but hugely inconsiderate of my feelings and of my relationship with him. I have told him that I think we have maybe made a mistake with accommodating her anxiety too much, because she's had no incentive to really work on them or change. Not only that, but it seems to be more about what she feels she does and doesn't get and expecting us to change for her.

I am usually more than happy to be accommodating most of the time because she a) lives far and b) isn't getting the primary relationship she wants out of things. But nothing I or Farmer does seems to help for long. There always seems to be something setting her off, and often it is a very small thing that lets loose a landslide (this time she saw Farmer send a text to me and assumed we were talking about her in secret).

In either case, I am not benefiting from group visits anymore and neither is she, not really.

Red is hugely upset by my need for space now. She doesn't know what she did 'wrong' and is certain I dislike her now because I don't want her around. Partner has unfortunately had to be a go-between which I dislike doing but I am not ready to talk to her after this weekend and I am afraid I will feel guilty and just cave.

I have agreed that it's totally fair that Farmer travel to see her once a month now, rather than her coming here once a month, so she will not see Farmer less at all. She doesn't have to take time off for visits now so in reality it is actually easier for her in a lot of ways this way. Plus she gets the dedicated 'Farmer Only' time she really needs without having to be upset at seeing Farmer with me, which I think is secretly more of an issue than she wants us to think. I have asked Farmer, "How often does she shut down when you visit her alone?" The answer was, "Once, maybe twice." Which is compared to... pretty much once every visit for the last 5 months.

We were supposed to go on a trip this weekend together, and I have admitted that I could not do another group thing again so soon. Farmer split up the weekend in a very fair way: Drive up with Red, one hotel night with her, one hotel night with me, drive back with me. But I guess because Red has farther to drive on Sunday to get home, suddenly the plans became that Farmer would also drive back with Red.. at least part-way. I am not bothered by having less time with Farmer, but I am bothered by what I see as more subtle boundary-pushing when plans are very fair. So I offered to drive up with Farmer instead, to keep things equal, and so she could drive with him Sunday on her longer drive. She as a result switched plans again and will drive home alone Sunday after all.

I realize I have made a mistake in maybe not asserting boundaries sooner, but for a long time I just assumed I felt uncomfortable because I was being jealous; that the problem was with myself, not with Red's behaviour. I kept conceding because she does, indeed, get less time with Farmer. But the way she is going about getting things now is Not Cool.

Sorry for the length. I am trying to be assertive with what I need right now but finding it hard not to feel guilty because of how upset she is acting over it. Farmer doesn't think I'm being unreasonable and thinks I deserve to feel happy and secure in my own home. But I do worry he still is catering to her anxiety and thus enabling the behaviour and not really seeing how her behaviour might be passive aggressive or manipulative. I have tried to suggest to him that anxiety is a part of the picture, but not all of it, and that it might be good if he starts to encourage her to work on it.

1) How can I explain this to Red in a way that is tactful but also lets her know that her behaviour has bothered me and that I need space? Should I even bother or just let Farmer handle it?
2) How can I best move forward with creating more healthy boundaries for myself?
3) Is there any way I can help Farmer to also start creating more healthy boundaries with her? He is not as sensitive to subtext, hints or passive aggression as I am, so some of it goes over his head. But when someone he loves his sad, his natural inclination is to jump in and fix it.
4) Am I maybe way off base here or is there something to be concerned about with Red and how these things keep happening? I always worry I'm not giving her enough compassion for her anxiety. :/ I feel like I have but I often question myself when people get upset with me.

I am not afraid Farmer will leave me for Red. He has been very clear he wants to spend his life with me and I am not the reason he decided his relationship with Red is temporary; it is just how he sees it playing out. I am just baffled that he keeps engaging with this behaviour because I know if he heard a friend's girlfriend was doing the things Red is doing to him/asking of him, he would be like "Pfft I wouldn't put up with that."

I haven't read your whole post. I will, but just from the first few paragraphs, all I see is BORDERLINE PERSONALITY DISORDER.

Oh hon, you are in hard situation. Your metamour isn't just anxious. I'm not usually one for internet diagnosing of mental states but google 'borderline personality disorder' and match up the dots. There are also some good books out there - which I cannot remember the name of - please help internet friends! - on dealing productively with someone who has borderline personality disorder.

You might be able to find the titles if you search for borderline personality disorder, mental health, mental illness, and so on here on the forum. Search anyway as the threads you find might be helpful for you to read. You are far from the first person dealing with a metamour with these behaviors. I suggest reading LizziE's blog from start to current day.

People with borderline personality disorder are not a lost cause by any means and can be fine partners but (especially if not dealing with their condition, not in therapy, etc.) can be very hard to deal with.

I'm going to respond to your specific questions in the body of your email.

*Edit* I see Magdlyn had the exact same thought as I did.

MrsBrightside said:

Farmer: My anchor partner of 10+ years; engaged and planning a life together that will soon include marriage and kids. The hinge of our V.
Red: Meta, with partner since July; LDR. Deeply monogamous at heart with anxiety issues.

Basically since then I have informed Farmer that I can't do group visits anymore. Red's anxiety, while I understand her emotions may be valid, the way she reacts to them are not only unhealthy, but hugely inconsiderate of my feelings and of my relationship with him. I have told him that I think we have maybe made a mistake with accommodating her anxiety too much, because she's had no incentive to really work on them or change. Not only that, but it seems to be more about what she feels she does and doesn't get and expecting us to change for her.
...
Red is hugely upset by my need for space now. She doesn't know what she did 'wrong' and is certain I dislike her now because I don't want her around. Partner has unfortunately had to be a go-between which I dislike doing but I am not ready to talk to her after this weekend and I am afraid I will feel guilty and just cave.

1) How can I explain this to Red in a way that is tactful but also lets her know that her behaviour has bothered me and that I need space? Should I even bother or just let Farmer handle it? [If my armchair diagnosis is correct - and who knows? I'm no expert and please don't treat me as one - then you can't. She may be unable to process such a thought at all - that you still like her but can't tolerate her behavior or that people need space from others. That doesn't mean you shouldn't try, if only for your peace of mind of giving it your best shot and being transparent and open with her - you just likely won't be rewarded for doing so and will likely trigger another breakdown/acting out/ meltdown, etc. People with either untreated mental illness or who refuse to deal with their situation can be utter black holes. You pour in love, support, compassion and get nothing back out. (This is true of more than just folks with mental illness and I have personally found this to be true with those folks who can't or won't deal with their mental health. I am not saying that people with mental illness are automatically black holes.) I will come back to if you rely on Farmer to deal with this later on.]

2) How can I best move forward with creating more healthy boundaries for myself? [More than two the book (and website) have good information on this but there is a lot out there on healthy boundary creation in general. Therapy is a fine option if you find a compatible therapist. And if your metamour does indeed have borderline personality disorder - or is 'just' manipulative, hyper anxious, and demanding, you will need to have healthy boundaries just so your own mental health doesn't start circling the drain. (Black holes not only take - they destroy. Keep that in mind.)]

3) Is there any way I can help Farmer to also start creating more healthy boundaries with her? He is not as sensitive to subtext, hints or passive aggression as I am, so some of it goes over his head. But when someone he loves his sad, his natural inclination is to jump in and fix it. [There is something noble about people who just want to help others and fix what ails them. In moderation and under conscious control, it's a fine trait and a loving one. I bet it's one reason you love Farmer. When this trait is unconsciously deployed and pursued beyond reason, it is incredibly destructive. (Google 'White Knight syndrome' for some interesting reading. White knight syndrome might be searchable on the forum too.) Also know that people who exhibit these type of behaviours - whatever the 'label' - consciously or unconsciously seek partners like Farmer to get their fix of attention, love, support and so on. The horrible thing is that no matter what Farmer does - or how compassionate you are towards Red - IT WILL NEVER EVER BE ENOUGH. Neither of you can ever hope to fix what ails her. If she gets treatment and works on herself, you can be loving and supportive but there is nothing and no one on Earth who can fix her problems externally. This is ultimately only something she can do. Know that whatever you and Farmer do, you cannot truly help.]

4) Am I maybe way off base here or is there something to be concerned about with Red and how these things keep happening? I always worry I'm not giving her enough compassion for her anxiety. :/ I feel like I have but I often question myself when people get upset with me. [Nope, your intuition is spot on. Something is terribly wrong with her behavior and might be terribly wrong in how Farmer deals with her behavior. Keep listening to that inner voice, particularly if you get unpleasant feelings in your body about a situation (that queasy feeling in your stomach, headache and exhaustion after being around someone - these are all examples of your intuition manifesting in your body and desperately trying to get your mind to pay attention 'something is wrong here!' Listen to it.]"

Click to expand...

She reminds me of the woman my partner, Blue, was dating when we first started dating. When he finally broke free from her, she caused all sorts of chaos and drama for him (in a spectacular fashion, I might add), and some for me.

My advice would just be to maintain the boundary that you've already stated: You do not want to be involved with her, have contact with her, or be involved in any group dynamics.... Let him go to to her. Let them have the weekend mini-trip to themselves. Do a different mini-trip with just Farmer. If she insists on coming to your town, let Farmer stay in a hotel with her.

As for how you can get Farmer to set better boundaries for himself, or to stop catering to her craziness? You can't. Farmer has to figure that out for himself. All you can do is maintain your boundaries and model healthier behavior. Hopefully, he'll grow weary of the crazy and decide to exit the relationship.

Thanks all... I have had a few friends now suggest the same. I thought perhaps they were being generous to me because they knew me (often why I reach out to strangers, they have no bias to me and usually tell me if I'm the one not acting in a good way, haha). BPD does seem to fit; she often complains of being broke but keeps getting tattoos and buying make-up and road trips. She does not have outbursts of anger per-se... but when she has her panic attacks she often feels like she is unimportant, that Farmer doesn't care about her, etc. I think her anger is more funneled into passive aggressive behaviours, but she knows getting angry won't get her anywhere with partner, and opts for the pity party instead.

The trip is to see Farmer play a sport; his first ever game. As much as I was tempted to not go, I really don't want to miss it. :/ Red originally said she wasn't going to go anymore, after I said I needed space, but she changed her mind. I won't really have to interact with her though.

PinkPig: How did Blue finally come to realize what was happening? Farmer thinks this is all the cause of her anxiety and she has no control over it, so he cuts her a surprising amount of slack given the unfair things she says about him not caring and such. Having some space will help me a lot, but I am terrified at this point she will paint me as the bad guy and cause a wedge (even though Farmer thinks I am being reasonable and that I don't have to have any kind of relationship with Red that I don't want).

Opalescent: Thank you! This is very helpful. I also don't think that talking with Red will be very productive. I might eventually when I am in a better headspace to handle the possible fallout... but not for a little bit. I need to heal. I have a possible therapist I could see, but I think I am doing okay with support from friends, and will be able to do better being away from her. I used to be a lot better at boundaries, but somehow certain types of people know how to make you throw them out the window, lol.

Farmer is not particularly a white knight, at least he never has been for me. He often trusts me to take care of me, but be able to depend on him if I need to. However, that isn't to say that Red hasn't sparked a bit of it in him. I'm just surprised he hasn't gotten to a point where he has realized it doesn't help, but I think because she switches so fast from 'meltdown' to 'fine' he thinks that she didn't really mean what she said in the meltdown mode, it was just the mental illness talking. I mean yeah that is awesome and compassionate but, I have suggested to him that all it is teaching her is that is what she needs to do to get that attention from him.

I am glad I am not totally crazy here. It has felt like I have been for a while.

Sounds like borderline to me too. Maybe one of the "quiet waif" type rather than the explosive type.

Could these help you gain some perspective?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iraGmA7-9FA

http://outofthefog.website/personality-disorders-1/2015/12/6/borderline-personality-disorder-bpd

1) How can I explain this to Red in a way that is tactful but also lets her know that her behaviour has bothered me and that I need space? Should I even bother or just let Farmer handle it?

Click to expand...

Don't JADE. (Justify, Argue, Defend of Explain) Just get to the point -- "I need space right now." And then get up and leave the room to get it. Keep it WAY simpler.

Trying to use "logic" when someone else is all emotional is a waste of energy. They just cannot hear you and their thinking process is wonky right then.
Better to remove the stimulus (your presence) so she can come back down from a "crank up" thing and not be triggering and retriggering. BPDs crank up faster and higher than anyone I've every seen and take longer than anyone else to move on and let things go and "deflate."

If she triggers and needs support, she can learn to do her self care, learn to ask for help, learn to make an appt with her counselor/get a counselor and learn to talk to friends til the appt time rolls around. She has many options!

Don't spend all day there tending to her just because watching someone you know struggle with upset triggers YOUR anxiety. Suggest 1 or 2 things tops and walk.

If she shoots down everything -- walk. There are some patients that just want an audience to suck dry. They don't really want to solve anything, take personal responsibility, or give up their victim mentality. If she's hell bent on sinking down with the ship, there's no reason for you to join her there in drowning.

Each person could carry their own emotional baggage. So you take care of you.

2) How can I best move forward with creating more healthy boundaries for myself?

Click to expand...

http://outofthefog.website/toolbox-intro/

Expect some anger when you set boundaries. The person who is loosey-goosey with their boundaries may try to bully or whine so you you give up/give in.
Rather than THEM stepping up to learn to exercise self control and to respect other people's limits.

Later on, they might even test you to make sure the boundaries stay the same -- just like a little kid.

Later on still they might seek easier targets to tell their sob story to and leave you alone. Or they might respect your boundaries and cut the shit out when around you... but keep it up around others. At least, that is how it has played out for me with mine.

3) Is there any way I can help Farmer to also start creating more healthy boundaries with her? He is not as sensitive to subtext, hints or passive aggression as I am, so some of it goes over his head. But when someone he loves his sad, his natural inclination is to jump in and fix it.

Click to expand...

Model the good boundaries you want him to learn and hope he chooses to do same.

Learn to spot a Hoover.

Even from FARMER. Because he might be under the spell or off white knighting and then you will have TWO of them on your hands sucking you dry. Just in different ways.

Her: Memememe!
Him: Oh! We have to help herherher!

4) Am I maybe way off base here or is there something to be concerned about with Red and how these things keep happening?

Click to expand...

No, you are not off base.

I think stopping group visits and group sex would help you.

I always worry I'm not giving her enough compassion for her anxiety. :/ I feel like I have but I often question myself when people get upset with me.

Click to expand...

Upset is just upset. Not one of the fun feelings to have like "happy" -- but all of them blow over in time. Sunny days or stormy skies -- emotional weather is just weather. Let it pass on through.

I have two BPDs in my family and they are sometimes like the bottomless pit of need. NOTHING is ever enough and will not be until they learn coping skills for themselves rather than using other people to prop themselves up. They have to learn to stand on their own. If I let them, they will drain me.
Which is why I have to meet my own need for health and sanity first and whatever help I gift to them is a gift. Not obligation, doing stuff from fear, or from guilt. And I won't even do that if they are not taking personal responsibility and attending their counseling sessions. No free rides. I am not their life raft or punching bag as they travel up and down in their emotional roller coaster.

Nor should you allow yourself to become her life raft or her punching bag. That gets exhausting. You have done more than enough. Time to set boundaries so YOU can stay ok.

I have told him that I think we have maybe made a mistake with accommodating her anxiety too much, because she's had no incentive to really work on them or change. Not only that, but it seems to be more about what she feels she does and doesn't get and expecting us to change for her.

Click to expand...

Yup.

My 2 cents
Galagirl

Thank you GalaGirl! That toolbox is amazing. I like the 'medium chill' approach, if I do have to talk to her this weekend at all. I will work up the courage to explain to her, maybe next week after things have cooled down (if they cool down).

Is there anyway I can tell Farmer I am worried Red may have more going on than just anxiety and depression (which she is diagnosed with)? Is there a point to suggesting she may have BPD or will that just seem like I am antagonizing her? It might be one of those things he won't quite grasp until he learns/sees it for himself..

I think you pretty much said it already in the post. Just spit it out to Farmer. Something like...


Then go to the links above if he is willing. If he is not willing at this time? Say "Ok. You are not willing at this time. Let me know if that changes. I am concerned because I see her doing some of the things listed" and let it go.

As for the trip, you could try medium chill. But I thought you wanted to let go of all these group trips and group sex things? Follow through on what you most want.

Could let Farmer handle it on his own. He's the one picking Red out, not you.

What is there that you still want to explain to Red that you haven't already?

• No, you do not want to be in a triad with her and Farmer. You prefer a V.
• Yes, you are willing to be polite and friendly should you cross paths. But you aren't going out of your way to cross them. (No group trips, no group sex)
• Yes, you are willing to share time fairly with Farmer.

Was there something else?

I suggest you keep life simpler on you. There's no such thing as "cow free" with a BPD. It's big cows or little cows but they often seem to be having a cow about something. So rather than worrying she's upset, ACCEPT it comes as part of the illness and just get on with living YOUR life.

He has been very clear he wants to spend his life with me and I am not the reason he decided his relationship with Red is temporary; it is just how he sees it playing out. I am just baffled that he keeps engaging with this behaviour because I know if he heard a friend's girlfriend was doing the things Red is doing to him/asking of him, he would be like "Pfft I wouldn't put up with that."

Click to expand...

I wonder if Farmer had to deal with ALL her crazy town on his own... since he sees this as a temporary relationship anyway -- would he get out that much faster?

Are you enabling him to stay longer than he would alone because you keep helping him to prop her up?

Galagirl

This reminds me a bit of the situation I am currently dealing with, where my partner is involved with someone who has serious mental health issues.

Boundaries, boundaries, boundaries! Set your boundaries and take a breather from contact with Red. Unfortunately, there is nothing you can do to prevent Farmer from being involved, but hopefully, you can protect yourself from the drama.

I told both my partner and his partner (X) that I need space from X for the time being while they figure out their relationship. So far, so good. Nonetheless, I don't trust X and probably never will - my partner knows this and has to make his own decisions accordingly.

Protect yourself.

Thanks everyone, this is helping a lot for me to have things I can say and how I can deal with this moving forward.

The trip is not exactly a 'group trip'. It initially was supposed to be, now Red and I happen to be going to the same event, which is a sporting event that we won't really have to interact much at beyond pleasantries. But we are going separately, having separate nights with Farmer and no co-sleeping or group sex. Currently I am okay with the set-up.

I may touch base with her briefly before the trip just to say I need space from group trips for my own personal well being right now, that I am okay with sharing time with Farmer instead and that my reasons are not because I dislike her, but ask that she respect my wishes. It won't be a discussion, more of a PSA. I want to give just enough reassurance that she will have less 'why does Mrs. Brightside hate me?' drama to pull me or Farmer into over the weekend in case she tries to bleed her time into my time... but not enough info to spark a JADE-style argument.

Hopefully that will be reasonable while still maintaining my boundary?

Thank you for clarifying about the group trip. It's more like a "shared event" trip but trying to keep accommodations and rides separate.

I want to give just enough reassurance that she will have less 'why does Mrs. Brightside hate me?' drama

Click to expand...

Has she ASKED you for some reassurance? I don't read that she has.

You seem to be trying soothe your anxiety by trying to "pre-reassure" in order to prevent her from having a cow because you feel uncomfortable around upset people. This mind-readering is a bad habit that can drain you energy away. Save your energy! Don't be walking on eggshells or spending energy that doesn't need to be spent right now. Remind yourself that if she has a cow, you can always get up and leave the room. Soothe and reassure YOU directly now. Not try to pre-reassure HER so you (maybe) are ok later. Be more direct and assertive.

As for her? Don't pre-reassure. She ask you for reassurance? Then you might reassure. Be like a toaster. She puts bread in first and THEN you toast. Don't be a random dispensing toaster. She's never going to learn to speak up and deal with her own things if people swoop in to do it for her all the time. Do not take away her opportunity to grow and change her behaviors.

This below is incomplete. What is the consequence?

I need space from group trips for my own personal well being right now, that I am okay with sharing time with Farmer instead and that my reasons are not because I dislike her, but ask that she respect my wishes.

Click to expand...

Boundaries are not for other people to respect. They are to clarify to YOURSELF what you will and will not tolerate and what you will do if someone steps on your toes. You can tell them what you will do so they are aware. But it has to have the consequence. Your phrasing is like "Please be nice to me ok? Just to be nice to me." Don't give away your power like that or rely on her mercy/having a good day. She's wonky.

Give YOURSELF the PSA so you are firm about what to do if she pulls a stunt on the trip. I see you trying to articulate some boundaries -- keep going! Have a consequence YOU can do. I would clarify your boundaries to include that. Like...

• I wanted space from group trips with shared accommodations.
  • I am trying on shared event trips with with separate rides and separate accommodations to see if that's enough space for me.
• (Consequence for yourself to do) If that does not work, then I will not attend any kind of trip with them in future.
• (Response I can give to them if they ever invite again) "No, thank you. I'm not into that. "

Then have a separate set for her wonky. If she pulls a stunt? You spit out this toast:

• "I see you doing ____ and experiencing ____ feelings."
• "Could you please be willing to do ____ instead? Is there something I can do to help reduce stimulus? Can I get you some water or dim the lights?"
• (Consequence for yourself to do) If she doesn't stop having a cow at me, blame storming, "poor little old me" or whatever else wonky she does, I am going to leave the room and let Farmer deal with his GF alone. I am not the one dating her. There is willing to be polite and being willing to be a punching bag. Polite yes, punching bag NO.
• (Response I can give to her) "I am sorry. I don't know what to do. Let me get Farmer."

If it were me, the new group trip arrangement is enough "new thing" Just decide your boundaries. Don't announce them or reaffirm them to her unless it actually comes up. Only tell her should the occasion warrant reaffirming your boundaries. Because if she's having a stable day, and not doing anything to Hoover, announcing that kind of thing from the blue would stir muddy waters back up and for what? So YOU can have a rotten event weekend because she starts having a cow? Pick and choose not just your battles but your timing.

I have a BPD parent. I refrain from telling him anything unless it actually happens. Timing matters.

I don't tell my dad things until the day of the thing if we are doing something like 2-6 hours in advance. Then he only has that small time window to blow up a cow and I have a good shot at it being a relatively small cow. Non BPD people might like a longer heads up but him? If I give him a few days heads up that doesn't mean he has time to get reasonable about it. It just means he has more time to blow up an even bigger cow about it with the anxiety and the unreasonable demands and the drama. I'll take the smaller cow.

When he steps on my toes I tell him right then. Not later. It has to be in the moment -- just like a puppy who pees the carpet. Right THEN. Otherwise he has no clue why I am bringing it up later.

YMMV with your uBPD.

Galagirl

Oh that's great information... I love the metaphor for the toast haha!

Thank you for pointing out that I'm still in the mentality of trying to reassure her to avoid trouble, as if I'm still responsible for how she might react. My guess is that she'll actually be on her best behavior because that has been typical also after an event, where she has a period of "I'm sorry, I'm gonna work on things" and for a time things get better. Hopefully she will also be back on her meds soon. She still did a lot of the behavior on the meds too, but it was a lot less of a violent up and down (except during visits).

Farmer agrees she doesn't deal with her anxiety in a healthy way, so at least we are on the same page there. It helps me feel better to know he at least sees it.

He also agrees that there's no need to contact her before the weekend. He will continue to fill her in if she asks.

Hopefully the weekend will go smoothly!

My guess is that she'll actually be on her best behavior because that has been typical also after an event, where she has a period of "I'm sorry, I'm gonna work on things" and for a time things get better.

Click to expand...

That's called cycle of abuse. Some unmanaged BPDs go there -- physical abuse, emotional abuse, mental abuse, verbal abuse, etc.

That is why I have a boundary to only deal with mine so long as they are attending counseling and taking their meds and actively trying to change. Working their management plan.

No free toast. Mine incline toward emotional and verbal abuse when NOT following their treatment plans. I can deal with a small anxiety cow. I'm not up for the abuse cows. They have to put the bread in first. (Do their treatment stuff.) THEN I might make toast. (take them to lunch or something fun and spend time with them.)

I encourage you to keep forming your boundaries for yourself and enforce them with your uBPD and with your hinge. Farmer seems willing for you not to be attending to her so much. So don't!

You could also remind yourself that you could choose maximum space and not deal with her at all. You aren't the one dating her. All you need is to see sex health labs when required and know he practices safer sex. You don't need to be her buddy or help him attend to her. He picked her out, not you.

You are NOT responsible for her behavior.

I hope the weekend is smooth. Take notes on what works and what doesn't.

GL!
Galagirl

Update!

The weekend went very well. I had some pretty terrible anxiety the Friday night due to not sleeping well/nightmares, but all was smoothed over once I met with Farmer at the hotel we were staying at for the night (Red dropped him off just before we got there).

The even itself was okay. I was participating in the first half so when I noticed Red had arrived and was talking to Farmer, I waved at her as I went by. She smiled a little but did not return the wave. I ended up going over a few minutes after that to say hello officially. Her best friend was standing off to the side with her SO and barely looked in my direction which made me feel weird a little because she is one of Red's best friends and one of the few who actually know who I am and that I am Farmer's other partner. Red did not introduce me formally to her until after the event (which again I had to approach them). Farmer did note it was really weird that Red's friend seemed so awkward (he has met her a few times now).

However, she told Farmer that she feels better about the situation because I went over to say hello. She feels a bit weird that none of our friends came over to say hello, but although they have seen her before none of them really know her that well either.

After the event Red left and Farmer and I had the evening to each other and attended an after-party, slept in, had a lovely/fun time with minimal text-interruptions (which is unusual but nice!) Red drove home by herself the next day and Farmer came with me as planned.

All in all it was very successful it seems and now we should not have any over-lapping events to worry about! Farmer is very open about what weekends he is planning on going to visit Red, she seems less freaked out about things. On top of this, Farmer has said she is planning on seeing her doctor as soon as possible and looking into therapy, which would be excellent for everyone I think.

I am feeling very optimistic.

Glad the weekend went well.

I hope she follows through with her self care/treatment plan.

Galagirl

Hi MrsBrightside,

Re (from OP):

"How can I explain this to Red in a way that is tactful but also lets her know that her behaviour has bothered me and that I need space? Should I even bother or just let Farmer handle it?"

Click to expand...

Let Farmer handle it. Red isn't going to listen to you. (She probably won't listen to Farmer either, but that is his concern not yours.)

Re:

"How can I best move forward with creating more healthy boundaries for myself?"

Click to expand...

Have Farmer visit Red at Red's domicile (while you stay home). Don't allow situations where you might run into her. Don't plan any more outings for all three of you.

Re:

"Is there any way I can help Farmer to also start creating more healthy boundaries with her? He is not as sensitive to subtext, hints or passive aggression as I am, so some of it goes over his head. But when someone he loves is sad, his natural inclination is to jump in and fix it."

Click to expand...

Honestly, I would let Farmer figure it out by himself. If he directly asks you for your advice or input, you could respond accordingly, but respond briefly. Don't give him the whole Bible, just a verse.

Re:

"Am I maybe way off base here or is there something to be concerned about with Red and how these things keep happening? I always worry I'm not giving her enough compassion for her anxiety. I feel like I have but I often question myself when people get upset with me."

Click to expand...

I think you are second-guessing yourself. Don't do that. Trust your instincts. When you feel you need to draw up a boundary around yourself, draw it up and don't let Red guilt-trip you. Don't let you guilt-trip yourself either.

I think Red has picked up on your weaknesses and is taking advantage of them. If Red sees that a certain (passive-aggressive) behavior no longer pushes you to where she'd like you to go, she'll stop using that behavior (and try something else). In time she might even try a healthy behavior. But in the meantime, don't subject yourself to her presence. Make that the first boundary you draw.

Red has picked up on Farmer's weaknesses as well, but that is for Farmer to figure out. Just focus on the boundaries that you need for you. Let Farmer figure out his own boundaries (or let him choose to have no boundaries -- it's his privilege to choose).

Re (from opalescent):

"There are also some good books out there -- which I cannot remember the name of -- please help internet friends! -- on dealing productively with someone who has borderline personality disorder."

Click to expand...

I believe one particularly good book is called, "Stop Walking on Eggshells." But I don't remember who the author is.

Thank you kdt26417! So far I have let Farmer explain things and it is up to him to decide how to deal with it now, though I have made some suggestions. He does give her a lot of the benefit of the doubt because her anxiety is bad enough to require medication, thus it's not really her fault.

While I can commend the compassion that takes, I have advised that she still does need to work on those issues, as it's not fair to him in the long run. He seems to agree with that.

I feel a lot better and less anxious about it, now that the weekend is behind us. We shouldn't have any overlap re: visits anymore. Either Red will use this as an opportunity to get better and go back on medication/therapy or the unhealthy cycle will just come back around again. I am hoping for the former!

She did text me to day to congratulate me on some job-related news. I just kept things neutral and it went fine.

MrsBrightside said:

He does give her a lot of the benefit of the doubt because her anxiety is bad enough to require medication, thus it's not really her fault.

Click to expand...

Her fault? No. Her responsibility to manage? YES.

My friend is diabetic, type 1. She's always been diabetic. Nothing she can do to not be diabetic. It's not her fault.

But it is her responsibility to each fairly healthy, to check her insulin levels, to manage her insulin pump. It's a huge PITA and lots of times she does great with it, but sometimes she falls of the wagon and has some serious health issues (though never a coma or anything that severe. fingers crossed it never happens).

Same goes with Red. It's not her fault. But it is absolutely her responsibility to manage it in a way that enables her to interact successfully with other people.

As I've learned (and am still working on) with my ex-Meta Lora, having serious mental health problems can cut you some slack, but it really shouldn't cut you enough that it interferes with placing the responsibility firmly on yourself to get help and get better.

It feels weird to have to remind myself of that so much, because I had to do the same thing to handle my depression.

But it's on Red to get whatever treatments and try whatever therapies are out there, so that she isn't putting her illness on to other people and making them accountable for it, instead of herself.

I have to second this. And thank Liz for the diabetes analogy. Idly I have diabetes and I have chronic depression w/ anxiety. I manage both with medication, exercise and therapy(for depression) as needed. Most people don't even realize I have these conditions.

Once a friend asked me why I didn't stop taking my ssri's since I obviously wasn't having a depressive episode. I had to explain that my depression wasn't a temporary thing but a chronic imbalance much like my diabetes. Thus with appropriate management no icky complications like major depressive episodes.

That doesn't mean I'm always perfect but it does mean that I take care to be aware and cognizant of my health. And not let the disease/anxiety be the thing people are actually having a relationship with.

I'm glad you are setting boundaries that work for you.

My nesting partner has anxiety/depression. She takes her meds, she goes to therapy. She still has some anxiety, but I've seen her off meds, she is paralyzed. In the 7 years we've been together, she has made great strides and become much more confident in her life.

My newer partner has bipolar disorder. He is also on meds and has done therapy. He can still get triggered by tough life situations but he knows that about himself and monitors his own moods. He also knows to force himself to go out and be engaged when he's feeling low, instead of wallowing at home.

Their fault? No. Their responsibility, if they expect to have partners/friends/jobs? Yes.

My younger daughter has BPD. Her father and I had a very hard time raising her, since she was basically born with it. It got harder when she became adolescent and then once she was 18, we had no legal rights to get her hospitalized. I read Stop Walking on Eggshells and it helped me a lot with my boundaries. She was abusing substances, had bulimia and was self harming. She would go into rages on bad days, but didn't physically attack anyone (except when she was very drunk and we would call 911, then she would struggle with the EMTs).

I had to draw back. She stole meds (any kind) from me, my gf, and her own bf, roomies in sober homes, and tried to take advantage of other people's kindness and then treat them badly. Every day I expected to get a call she was dead. Thankfully, almost 2 years ago, at age 25, she turned her life around and is sober and doing well. It was a miracle. She had hit a low point, hooking for crack! Eek. She found Jesus (hey, it works for some addicts) and somehow that worked for her.

Anyway, people with BPD are extremely hard to deal with. I am sorry your h is mixed up with one... I hope he survives.