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Old 11-10-2013, 07:26 AM
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kdt26417 kdt26417 is offline
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Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: Yelm, Washington
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Re: hands and touching ... sounds to me like we're all pretty much on the same page (with respect to hand hygiene), so I won't worry about that. And I've been laboring for awhile under the impression that "permission before touching" is something that probably matters quite a bit more to ColorsWolf than it does to kdt26417, however since I don't quite know what to do about that other than acknowledge that we each have our unique/individual perspectives about things, for now at least I guess I won't worry much about that either.

Re (from ColorsWolf):
"I don't mean for any of my words to be offensive or angry sounding, so please try to understand that if they do."
Okay no offense, but while they didn't sound angry per se, they did strike me as being a little on the competitive side? Don't wanna compete, just wanna exchange ideas. Long as we can agree to that, then I'll just chalk up the impression I had to paranoia on my part. (Would still be much obliged if you could bring it down a notch, though.)

"I don't know what channels you've been watching ..."
D'oh, ya got me, I don't keep up on the Discovery Channel (etc.) like I should. Too much Dexter, Law & Order, Sons of Anarchy, etc.

Re: orangutans and rape ... gotcha, some orangutans engage in rape. Didn't know that before but I'm not shocked to hear it. I kind of suspect that a few other ape species as well have rapists amongst them. Hah, what am I saying: Humans *are* a species of apes, and God knows we have human rapists. Anyway, I trust you understand what I mean generally speaking.

"Many male creatures will kill infants to make the female go into heat so she will mate with them to produce *their* children ..."
I'd heard of that (in lions and other cats at least, didn't know polar bears did it).

"Bottlenose dolphins will rape and torture other kinds of dolphins if put in the same tank with them ..."
Uh ... can I ask what this torture specifically consists of?

Re: dolphins, killer whales, etc. ... yes I know they're not nearly so "cuddly" as many people think they are.

"The thing is we don't really know anything at all about how the lives of other species outside of our own work in accordance with that species' own perspective on it."
Alright, then I'll emend/expound a few of my statements from earlier posts. If a non-human animal can contemplate ethics in a manner similar to what humans can do, then (in my mind) I'll hold that animal similarly accountable for its actions. Which certainly means that I can't know for sure how accountable to hold this or that animal since I don't really know what it's thinking.

"We don't know if other species actually practice or even comprehend 'morality' as those in the Human species seem to do, or if they do but they decided to 'discard it' since its subjectivity is far too unreliable to use as a way of thinking."
Which isn't so much a question of what non-human animals think/do in comparison to humans, it's more a question of whether ethics are worth bothering with since they're so subjective. Well, as far as that goes, I suppose we could argue all day about it. But I'd rather not. I personally feel that it's worth trying to do the right thing despite all the subjectivity; the effort in my opinion is worthwhile because on a large scale I believe it'll eventually lead to better overall behaviors in a given species. I take it that you'd beg to differ, but it seems to me that agreeing to disagree is the best we'll be able to do on this topic.

Do I think humans are "higher" than other animals? Nope. Perhaps I'd consider a species "higher" if it used a higher *percentage* (than other species) of whatever ethical understanding it has. Humans certainly have far to go to live up to their potential in that area.

"The point is we truly don't know and any claim made otherwise of one by our own species is simply pure arrogance, narcissism, ignorance, and foolishness."
Well then I won't make that claim. I'll simply qualify my various opinions as the best guess I can come with given whatever little information I have.

Please note that I'm not trying to prove there's anything wrong with you or your way of thinking, any more than I'm trying to prove there's nothing infallible about me or my way of thinking. I'll admit to having attempted to make my position understandable, but that's all I was trying to do. I'll agree to try to understand your position if you'll agree to try to understand mine (and neither of us has to agree to be convinced of each other's positions; understanding is just getting where someone's coming from, not the same thing as being convinced by their conclusions).

Please don't put me in a position where I'll either have to agree with your position/conclusions or else get caught up in a perpetual competition/argument about it. That would be unnecessary and might even drive me off (without notice ahead of time).

On the other hand, if you feel you've had enough of me already, just say the word and I'll willingly retreat without grudge or recrimination. (I still reserve the right to converse with other members on any unlocked thread, though.)

On the "third hand," given the edit at the start of your post, can I assume that we still have a peace treaty in effect? I hope so.
Love means never having to say, "Put down that meat cleaver!"
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