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Old 11-03-2013, 02:14 AM
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kdt26417 kdt26417 is offline
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Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: Yelm, Washington
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"Wow, do you guys ever get off the couch and off your laptops? I spend a lot of time online, but Jesus on a cracker."
Gods, it seems like I used to get off my "couch/laptop." This thread has really been tempting me to pour out my time and attention. I swear I used to be able to keep up with everything, now I'm like, "D'oh, fell short again" every day. Guess it's been a stressful but mesmerizing ride?

"We do not live in a breastfeeding friendly culture and have not since about the 1930s."
Huh ... Odd ... Do we have any info on something that may have happened in the 30's to change people's outlooks? the invention of baby formula perhaps, or something like that?

"Also, Kevin, you semi-quoted me as saying some Middle Eastern women do not know whether it's okay to breastfeed in public or not."
Well just to be clear, I only meant that as a description of my own perception. Didn't mean to imply that such was necessarily your view as well.

"There are many cultures in the Middle East, and then other cultures that are Muslim but not Middle Eastern. I expect things vary by country, and things are different in traditional villages as opposed to big cities."
Probably true.

Re (from ColorsWolf):
"I meant the feeling of getting embarrassed to do things in front of a large group of people, I still have that initial first apprehension before I do it."
Sounds a little like something akin to stage fright? (If I'm still missing the target, please attempt to continue to clarify and I believe I'll get it eventually.)

Oh, your parents did "shame you a little" about nudity, just not to an "extreme" extent. Sorry, I misunderstood on that point.

"No matter what we do we are responsible for all of our actions, these is no 'have to,' there is no 'no choice,' no matter what: you are choosing to do some thing, how ever you want to justify it to yourself is up to you but this does not change the truth that you still 'chose' to do it."
I had a friend in school who used to often say that we always "create our own reality." Would that kind of be stating the same idea?

Here's my practical perspective. As we get older, and especially as adults, we become increasingly responsible for our actions (even if we're "technically obeying orders"). But as kids, we're a lot smaller than our parents and for that reason, our parents can kind of manhandle us into doing their will if they want. Not to say that a kid can't put up a heck of a fight ...

"We may not have complete control over some of the circumstances that we find ourselves in, but we still choose how to react to these circumstances."
Makes sense. Only partial exception I can think of would be if I was shackled to some kind of torture machine. But I guess in theory my mind can always be in control, even if in practice it's a quivering ball of terror.

"I don't know anyone that I remember at this moment that had that literally told to them growing up, but I do know plenty of people and I notice this seems to be the prevailing attitude at least in this country of the U.S.A. from my observations, learning, and experiences of everything from the media to talking to people in-person."
So when I say "citation needed," you could say that your citation is your observations, learning, and experiences. It also sounds like we agree that the media plays its own nasty little role in this shaming process?

Re: shame on Hollywood ... don't be alarmed, I really only meant that figuratively, not literally. The point there is merely: how often, when watching an "average" movie, do you see an actor or actress who doesn't have a "perfect" (face and) body? Not very often.

"Most if not all religions tend to be about control ..."
Yep -- that's about how I see it. (And man if you can control people's sexuality, you've really put the whammy on them.)

"Humanity in general seems to have an addiction to the power of control."
Guess it's "easier" to have someone tell us what to do. "My brain hurts too much when I have to make my own decisions. Please make my decisions for me, oh wise and mighty authority figures."

Re: parents who tell their kids, "Your naked body is a wonderful thing, but the world just isn't ready to see that yet, and so, that's why you should usually keep yourself clothed" ... hmmm. I read an article early today about two young boys (from different families and different parts of the country) who had transsexual tendencies. Each boy was sent to see a counselor (so there were two counselors in this story). The two counselors in question had very different ways of approaching the issue. One counselor saw the boy's tendencies as a "disorder," which, if he was allowed to indulge in it, would cause him much social grief throughout his life because transsexuality is not widely considered acceptable in our society. Thus, even if that counselor didn't condemn transsexuality per se, he could still say that it would be harmful for the boy to actually practice it.

The other counselor took the stance that the other boy's transsexualism was perfectly fine and natural and as such, he should be encouraged to indulge in it. That counselor did not seem to be so worried about how society would react. She considered it more important for that boy's mental health to be himself throughout his life, even if he had to take some social flak for doing so.

Well as you might guess, the first boy (the one who was counseled to "act like a boy," and whose parents were counseled to prod him to do so) ended up in a really tormented frame of mind, and was afraid to show himself when company would come over. He would hide himself in a closet or something and play with what few girl's toys he had left where no one could see him. The second boy (the one who was counseled to "be himself -- i.e., 'herself,'" so to speak, and whose parents were counseled to encourage his transsexualism) ended up happy and well-adjusted and here's the real surprise: He (i.e. she) wasn't persecuted by his (her) fellow students at school at all. In fact, he (she) turned out to be quite popular.

So when you say, parents have no business discouraging a child's nudity for the sake of the child's social well-being, I am reminded of that article. If transsexualism is a good thing to encourage in a child who is so inclined, why shouldn't that child also be encouraged to go "au naturel" if he/she is so inclined? Shouldn't society be "taught to get used to nudity" by seeing it in action?

I like the concept. Buuut ... I guess I still find myself thinking, "Mmmm, society is 'more ready' to see/experience/be exposed to transsexualism than it is to see/experience/be exposed to naturism." Doesn't mean you couldn't still argue that people of all ages should be encouraged to disrobe when/wherever they want to, for the sake of helping to bring about social change (an improvement in society), just means I suspect that "persistent nudity" would be a harder road to travel than transsexualism would be.

All that said, I guess I see your point about "all" parents being equally guilty for "raising a conscientiously clothed child," whether they do so by force, verbal shame, or "It's just safer for you that way honey."

Re: questioning the "fine or subtle differences" between shame, modesty, and dignity ... okay I'll let that topic drop, it's not my intention to "try to catch you making a mistake" or something like that. You can't please everyone, your own happiness definitely matters, and I'm sure we could all turn our attention toward more enlightening stuff.

Re: respect and servitude ... ah, such a fine and perilous line between those two. For example, I don't *really* know whether I'm "respecting" or "serving" my "peers" when I refrain from going nude out in public. Do I care about their sensibilities, or am I just afraid of their reactions? No idea. Some of both? Maybe?
Love means never having to say, "Put down that meat cleaver!"

Last edited by kdt26417; 11-03-2013 at 06:03 AM.
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