Kevin, "Re: crowd shame ... I must ask: You mean fear of being in crowds in general, right, not necessarily fear of being in crowds unclothed? I have a history of fearing crowds in general, but maybe not so much now as in the old days."
Surprisingly, none of those you listed.~
When I said, "Crowd Shame".~ I meant the feeling of getting embarrassed to do things in front of a large group of people, I still have that initial first apprehension before I do it.~ After I start doing it that first initial apprehension usually goes away gradually.~
Kevin, "It seemed to me that you indicated that your parents didn't try to "shame" you into clothing yourself."
No, I tried to make it clear that they did try, but half-heatedly with not much effort put into it.~ Like they told us it wasn't "right" to be without clothing in certain circumstances or other such nonsense, but they didn't actually tell us traumatizing things to make us hate ourselves.~
Kevin, "Taking the notion even further, I think that my own parents were probably less tolerant/open-minded than yours were. Yet, even they did not teach me to clothe myself by using any shaming techniques -- unless they snuck that quite into my subconscious without me noticing. I just lived by something of a "military law" as a kid. The parents were the superior officers, and what they ordered you to do, you did. There was never any questioning of "why" you were obeying these orders; you simply knew you had to do it. So, by my parents' approach, they didn't need to shame me into clothing myself; they just made it clear that I darn well better do it because they said so. From there, it became a habit and, well, a lot of being clothing derives from habit (and the comfortableness of adhering to habit), in my perspective."
From a certain age I don't remember, I started to realize no one "makes" me do any thing, I don't "obey" any one, I don't take "orders" I take "requests", regardless of how others see it or what words are used in the process: from
my own understanding and perspective I realized that no matter what we do we are responsible for all of our actions, these is no "have to", there is no "no choice", no matter what: you are choosing to do some thing, how ever you want to justify it
to yourself is up to you but this does not change the truth that you still "chose" to do it.~
We may not have complete control over some of the circumstances that we find ourselves in, but we still choose how to react to these circumstances.~
Kevin, "So, when you speak of parents who train their kids to clothe themselves by telling said kids that "they're disgusting filthy creatures who should feel bad for even existing" ... I feel like Wikipedia when it says, "citation needed." Do you know of specific cases where parents used that technique with their kids? Can you cite any studies or articles you're familiar with that would indicate that this kind of training is a widespread problem (at least in American households)? Whatever this paragraph seems like, it is not an attempt to "discredit" you. It is an attempt to understand how you came to be as concerned about this problem as your posts have seemed to me to indicate. Feel free to correct me (politely) if I've misinterpreted your posts or intent in any way."
I don't know any one that I remember at this moment that had that literally told to them growing up, but I do know plenty of people and I notice this seems to be the prevailing attitude at least in this country of the U.S.A. from my observations, learning, and experiences of every thing from the media to talking to people in-person.~
Kevin, "Well, then, where does all this "nudity shame" come from if not from our parents? I'm not sure, but I suspect that InfinitePossibility is onto something with the video she referenced in her October 30 post. In other words, I'll bet the biggest culprit in causing "nudity shame" is the media. Advertisers, movie-makers, even news stations bombard us with images of "perfect physiques." As a result, we all start to get real self-conscious about how we look, especially when exposed to our own conditioned scrutiny in the mirror. So, shame on Hollywood, so to speak."
No, no "shame on any body".~ Shame is like hate: it is a self-feeding cycle.~ That is the problem, we need to stop feeding into shame if we want to be free of it.~
Kevin, "Is religion to blame for nudity shame? probably so, to some hard-to-quantify extent. After all, most churches will teach us that it's "sinful" to walk around naked. So I guess Hollywood doesn't get the sole blame. And as I said, some parents are probably guilty of participating in that brand of conditioning as well -- I just have no idea how many parents, what the numbers or percentages are. "
The main reason seems to be control for "shaming people".~ Most if not all religions tend to be about control: "Follow our rules or you will not be happy after you die." and Humanity in general seems to have an addiction to the power of control.~
Kevin, "It seems equally plauseble to me to visualize parents who tell their kids, "Your naked body is a wonderful thing, but the world just isn't ready to see that yet, and so, that's why you should usually keep yourself clothed." As is visualizing the (probably more typical) parents who say, "Doggone it, put your pants on! cause I said so!""
The first parents mentioned are just as guilty of inflicting harmful unhealthy concepts upon their children as the last parents mentioned here.~ Although the last parents mentioned inflict it much more severely, both are continuing the cycle of "shame".~
Kevin, "In case I'm not in trouble yet, I'll even risk suggesting that there are fine/subtle differences between shame, modesty, and dignity. Shame being the worst, modesty being the tendency to "respect the public's wishes," and dignity being the tendency to "comport oneself in a way that doesn't display, shall we say, 'wild animal' protocols?""
It's all utter nonsense and a waste of time to me: why should I worry about every little thought of every person about me and shape my life to the almost impossible feat of pleasing every one, what is that going to do for me, does my happiness even matter, aren't there so many better things I can do with my life and time that would actually make "me" happy?~
Yes there is respect for others, but I warn you to be careful that "respect" does not become "servitude".~
Love yourself, you are beautiful!~ ^_^
*Believe in yourself, you can do anything*!~ ^_^
Appreciate every thing, every thing is precious.~
Last edited by ColorsWolf; 11-02-2013 at 04:28 PM.