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Old 01-06-2010, 04:46 AM
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ImaginaryIllusion ImaginaryIllusion is offline
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Canada
Posts: 2,006
Default Irrational Parents Pt1

Ok, my last post got a couple of responses which are at best pretty radical interpretations of the text…and at worst could be read as trying to imply something about the author. I don’t know what is going on…be it material from earlier in the thread, or personal issues being projected into the text, or whatever. So let me clarify.

Starting with clearing the air:
Originally Posted by Ravenesque View Post
Originally Posted by ImaginaryIllusion View Post
I'd suggest those without children go back and re-examine this line of thought if and when you have children. You might find the decisions you will be willing to make will be drastically different that those made as a non-parent/guardian.
I love a "suggestion" like this. The assumption that I would make the same decisions as the ones stated here in the same situation therefore I should re-examine my current stance is an argument lacking any sort of logic and ignoring a myriad of variables. It is quite an arrogant view to think everyone would act like you in the same situation.
Like I said…radical interpretation. If I made any assumption at all, it is that you are not a parent…yet, and the part of your post I was responding to was simply your assertion that you would not make a certain decision if you were a parent.

I said nothing about your stance, current or otherwise. I did not say re-examine now. I did not say it without a logical reason, and I did not say anything about anyone acting like me in any situation. There was no situation, other than the transition from being a non-parent/guardian, to being a parent/guardian.

Ok, 2nd assumption was that you didn’t mean to suggest that ‘I’ was arrogant.

Originally Posted by Ravenesque View Post

And imagine the assumptions being made in regards to the role children play in my life and my family's life. Amazing really.
Not sure why this was a necessary comment...I made no such assumptions.

Originally Posted by Ceoli View Post
I have to call this out because this line of thought often sits beneath a lot of misunderstandings.
You know…I think this specific phrase is probably what gets some peoples hackles up. ‘Calling out’ being something that’s done in old westerns just before a gunfight makes it seem very challenging, and could be perceived as an attempt to invalidate someone else’s perspective. Just a thought.

If you have such an intense desire to ‘call out’ everything that’s posted so be it...challenge it all if you like…fill your boots. I'll just say...I don’t answer to you. My lines of thinking don’t answer to you. They answer to me. My opinions and lines of thinking are quite capable of standing on their own, and being valid based on me and my experiences, regardless of challenges...or how much they may make anyone’s blood boil. They are just as valid as anyone else’s experiences or opinions no matter how much they may not suit my own preferences. They don’t need to agree...and I’m ok with that. In this case I actually think we do agree...we just haven't figured that out yet.

Now, the gist of whatever you think I said...
Originally Posted by Ceoli View Post
But really, it's a bit insulting to to be told in effect "You can't possibly understand because you don't have kids". The subtext of that, whether intended or not, is "Your opinion is not valid in this area".
Originally Posted by Ceoli View Post
However, at the risk of repeating myself, assuming that those without children are ignorant of the issues that surround the dynamics of a child does feel belittling.
Again...not at all what I said. If you choose to create an interpretation such as this and be insulted by it, that’s your choice. Take it, own it, make a flower arrangement with it, do whatever you want with it. However it’s not what I said, nor what I meant.

What I did say...and what I actually meant by it:
I do assume LR has both made the transition to become a parent, and also understands what I did say... although I must confess to be a little confused about the metaphor.
Originally Posted by LovingRadiance View Post
No kidding. It's a whole different ball-game. Hell-it's not even a BALL game anymore. It's more of a juggling game-only you get to juggle burning objects that could kill.
Juggling baby geese is one thing...but I’m not so sure about juggling kids...and even less so if they were lit on fire first. I can’t get mine to sit still long enough for pictures. It’s all just making for weird mental images.

In response to the assertion (from a currently non-parent) that they would (as a prediction in the present, about their own actions in the future) not make a certain decision if they were a parent...
To paraphrase, I merely indicated the possibility that their decisions (any decisions, and the way they make them) might...operative word might…be very different to those that they would make now.
It was not a “suggestion”…it was just a suggestion. It’s a subset of the larger suggestion that I would make to anyone who considers themselves conscious and sentient…to go back to re-evaluate and reassess from time to time. Their decisions, their assumptions, everything about themselves. People change over time.
Originally Posted by Ferris Bueller
Life moves pretty fast. You don't stop and look around once in a while, you could miss it.
Age, life events, education, relationships, society, our own development, all serve to affect us over time. Some events can change us in fundamental and significant ways. Puberty, developing the ability to think in abstract ways, passing into adulthood, the list is extensive. I have a hard time imagining anyone going too far wrong by doing some reassessments, soul-searching or what have you from time to time.

Becoming a parent is one of those experiences capable of such change.
Similar to puberty, it can involve not only physical changes, but psychological, and physiological changes. There are chemical and hormonal devices to bond children to their parents, particularly the mothers. These devices, these bonds are natural, instinctual, base, a product of our evolution, and they sometimes defy the rational mind. Yes, parents can be a little crazy…especially the mothers. There is a reason you don’t mess with a bear cub in the mountains...because Mother Bear is a force of nature not to be trifled with, and fundamentally humans don’t differ a huge amount in this respect.

As far as I’m concerned, this is one of those experiences that cannot be fully known to those who have not experienced it. It can change people in very fundamental ways. The way in which decisions are made can be significantly different than before hand. As such I believe it would be virtually impossible for anyone (short of inventing clairvoyance or Vulcan mind melds) to truly know or predict exactly what decisions they would make after such an event. I know I’ve made this transition, and there are many areas where my thinking and mindset have shifted dramatically. There are areas where my thoughts with regards to my children do not fit in the realm or reason, logic, or rational thought. And even while I understand that I have these thoughts as a parent, I also know that my wife’s experience is different on a level which I can never understand as another mother could.

This is what I’m talking about when I say that non-parents may be very surprised what decisions they will make and why, if and when they become parents. And that was all I was saying. It’s an experience like puberty, like losing a loved one to sickness, or another loved one to violence, being in a combat zone, being stranded in a survival situation, growing up on the streets of NYC...many others. These are situations where no one can be fully sure of their reactions until they are faced with it. They can prepare for it as much as they want, think it through, plan, read, research, whatever...but in the face of reality, the actual actions can…operative word can…be very different than the plan.

Originally Posted by Ravenesque View Post

Just taking a gander at the women in my family and the history and approach to dealing with adversity... I think not.
Raven, If you believe that, and end up living that reality, more power to you. where did I say that decision would be different. If between your own will, your role models, and your own experience as a parent you decide to carry on your course in spite of the obstacles you would get nothing from me other than respect and admiration for that. The same respect and admiration I would give LR or RP for being true to themselves as parents.

However, I would bet that if you became a parent, …active, raising the kid in your home 24/7 parent, something about the way you make decisions will change. Seriously…if you make it to the kid’s 5th birthday, do your soul searching, and can’t find any decision you’ve made as a mother that you wouldn’t have made, or evaluated differently when you were not a mother, I’ll buy you dinner.
“People who say it cannot be done should not interrupt those who are doing it.” - Chinese Proverb

-Imaginary Illusion

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