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Old 12-21-2012, 08:46 AM
Nudibranch Nudibranch is offline
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Originally Posted by InsaneMystic View Post
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I can't even relate to that view. It's blatantly obvious to me that it's religiously charged; and in any case, it's objectively, factually wrong to say that it's totally secular. Marriage is a Catholic sacrament. End of story, your point is disproven.
With all due respect, my people were marrying many millennia before the Catholic church ever emerged. And it had to do with a statement of human, not supernatural, commitment within a tribe.

Kindly do not pass judgment on all others using recently invented things such as "Catholic sacraments." You may limit your understanding of human experience to what has been written down in the past 2,000 years. Some of us have cultural memory and traditions that go back much further.

There is a strong tradition of secularized marriage in the US. Legally it is based in Anglo-Saxon common law, which was heathen at best. This is the origin of civil marriage: a declaration of transmission of property and of responsibility for childrearing. Among my own ancestors in the US colonies in the 1600s, we married outside any churches (and frequently had our marriages annulled by those who asserted that marriage could only be religious, and since we were not religious, we could not be married--which doesn't make it true).

I have handfasted couples for whom their declaration was of marriage, and in the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania, two individuals have the power to declare themselves married with absolutely no trappings of religiosity. All that is required is a state license, and two witnesses.

Your message comes across to me as defensive, and disrespectful or rejecting of those of us who were raised in or have come to traditions where marriage has nothing to do with religiosity. My ancestors preserved this notion of marriage, and family, despite genocide in eastern Finland over a thousand years. We have battled for over 350 years in the New World to keep it alive. Don't tell me that our marriages are owed to the Catholic church. My people were killed for singing the old songs. This is why my first ancestors came to the New World to begin with--because the singers of tales were being burned, first the menfolk, and the drums smashed. We were forcibly converted twice, first by the Pope, then by the Protestants.

And look what good it did.

Last edited by Nudibranch; 12-21-2012 at 08:48 AM.
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