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Old 11-04-2012, 02:24 AM
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AnnabelMore AnnabelMore is offline
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Originally Posted by Helo View Post
The only thing I can really do is disagree and repeat myself, I feel like we're not going to agree on this point.
It seems like you're right that we're not going to agree, and I don't care for a pointless back-and-forth either, though how you can put difference in hair color on the same plane as difference in skin color in our cultural context, I really don't know. I mean, I did explain why I think they're different, I'd be interested to hear your thoughts in response as to why they're not?

Originally Posted by Helo View Post
I'm sorry I just don't buy the unconscious racism. I'm fully prepared to accept that some people have cultural biases towards "their own" and that plays out as unconscious bias or discomfort around a diverse environment but to call it full-blown racism, I dont see any basis for that.
Ok, again, would you care to explain why you don't buy into the concept? There are many more studies out there, not just the one I linked. I didn't make this up as a talking point

Originally Posted by Helo View Post
It automatically shuts down a conversation.

Joe: "You wouldn't understand, you're racist."
Jack: "What? I have friends of different ethnicities, I've dated women who were of a different ethnic group, I live in a heavily ethnic neighborhood, how am I racist?"
Joe: "Its unconscious racism."

What then can you say to that? You cant deny it because its something that you apparently cant sense and your examples of how you're not racist don't do anything against it. Even if you accept it, what do you do about it? When are you NOT unconsciously racist anymore? Do you have to go back to the original diagnoser for another test or can you just ask a whole bunch of people?
Anyone who would talk like Joe in your example would be being a jerk. I mean, I'm talking about the concept of unconscious racism, am I talking like Joe, throwing out accusations and refusing to back them up? No, I'm positing suggestions, saying it would be worth considering why something would be the case, and explaining my position. As for what you can say, you can say "I disagree, and if you're not willing to back up your point, then you're not interested in having a real discussion." Then, if the person with whom you're speaking does convince you that there's something you ought to consider, it's on YOU to consider it. YOU figure it out for yourself, by reading, thinking, examining yourself. Sure, you can talk to other people but they can't "diagnose" you nor "test" you.

I completely get it, as someone who was raised to be fair-minded it SUCKS to think that one might be walking around with prejudices banging around in your head. But then, for example (this is a real example from my life), a friend wants to transition genders and you have a knee-jerk negative reaction and then you realize you have a bunch of stuff to learn about and work through. Or maybe you realize that, despite living in an ethnically mixed society, you've never once been attracted to a black person, even ones who would have been perfect for you, and you have to step back and say "Huh, what is this about, is it a matter of prejudice?" and you just start being conscious of it and actively considering black people as potential partners and see if anything changes. Maybe, in the end, it won't, maybe it really IS just like a preference for blonds -- but why not consider the idea that there's something else going on? Is the thought that threatening?

The brain is elastic. Our families, and our societies, imprint it with ALL sorts of things. We can choose to create new imprints that match OUR values, if we want to.

Originally Posted by Helo View Post
I'm against the idea that someone with zero training in ANYTHING can slap a label on someone else that has some very serious social ramifications that the target then cannot dispute without digging the label in deeper nor can they do anything to "fix" the problem themselves without the approval of others. It basically turns into a tool of marginalization for someone you dislike or disagree with and I'm not cool with that.
It's really not about trying to slap labels on people, I promise. If that's what I'm doing, for example, please show me where I did. I don't see why we should avoid discussing something that science has proven is real, just because someone *could* try to use it as a conversational weapon -- in which case we can just call them on what they're doing! If we don't talk about hard topics, how can we deal with them?
Me, 30ish bi female, been doing solo poly for roughly 5 years. Gia, Clay, and Pike, my partners. Davis, ex/friend/"it's complicated." Eric, Gia's husband. Bee, Gia and Eric's toddler.
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