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Old 11-29-2009, 02:33 PM
Quath Quath is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Joreth View Post
My point here with this story is that a pervasive cultural atmosphere of "girls aren't as strong as boys" and a societal acceptance of making such statements has real world consequences. It leads to very real discrimination.
I agree that it is too easy for people to be prejudice based on ignorance and small correlations.

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Making a statement like "my monogamous nature makes me close-minded" is both an avoidance of responsibility for being open-minded and a contributing factor to stereotypes and discrimination. That fact that he is also a monogamous man does not excuse the statement from being discriminatory, nor does it excuse it from being factually incorrect.
It seems that I was reading the wrong posts since I thought it was the Ethical Slut and not Love without Limits (Thanks Ceoli). So I am not sure how it was used. However, statements like that can also be viewed as recognizing a pattern of thinking that he is correcting for (since who wants to admit to being closed minded). By some polls, monogamous people are closed minded on the subject of polyamory. I heard one in which people were more comfortable with a married person committing adultery rather than someone into polyamory. (I can't remember if the poll was about politics or something else.)

I am pretty active in promotion of women's, gay's and atheist's rights, even though I really only belong to the atheist group. I encounter many closed minded people in my discussions. But far from seeing it as an excuse, I see it as an obstacle that must be overcome. Unfortunately, people are not very rational in general. They want to be perceived that way and rationality may leak through at times.

The way around closed mindedness is usually by a personalized example. Your story is a great point. You could have argued a logical case for why you would should be on the crew, but you showing that you were good on the crew made a strong difference.

So I am not sure how Mono was using the concept of closed mindedness since I must have been looking at the wrong thread. So I am not sure if it was just to mark a common way of thinking wuth the idea that it needs to be changed. Or if the message was that it is always a difference and we should not expect it to change.

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Yes, but "monogamousness" is not a lens that people see the world through. The state of being monogamous, much like the state of being male, is hugely varied. Contrary to popular stereotypes, all men do not think and feel the same simply because they all have penises, and all monogamous people do not think and feel the same simply because they all have one lover at a time (nor do they all even have one lover at a time).
I tend to look this as more of identifying trends. If you took a poll on a group of people with characteristic X, do you get a bias on viewpoint Y? If the answer is "yes" then something is going on. Now, it may be a small or large bias. For example, men will be more likely to admit to being a sports fan than women (75% to 50%). Understanding this is not easy. It could be cultural. It could be genetic (some analogize that watching sports is to war what porn is to sex). But there is something to "maleness" here to describe the bias. It marks a trend, but it doesn't mean that all men like to watch sports (I don't and my best friend is a female that does).

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As I've already said, it might be appropriate to say that one's close-mindedness is responsible for one being monogamous. Being "close-minded" might be a lens that one sees the world through (but I'd be willing to put that up for debate too). But being monogamous is not because there are too many different ways to experience monogamy.
I think monogamous people can be broken up into three groups. One group is closed minded people (thought about it and rejected irrationally), open minded people (thought about it and finds it just doesn't suit them) and people who never thought about it and just took on the societal norm. Polyamorous people are mostly (I won't say all) made up of just the open minded group. Now this is just openminded in just the area of sexual and loving relationships. But I am pretty sure that open mindedness in one area correlates to open mindedness in others.

So if something comes up in which is tied to being open minded, I think we are going to see a difference in the two groups. But within the monogamous group, there will be open minded people.

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Rationality is a lens through which I see the world that DOES affect my view of spirituality because rationality (in this context) specifically addresses spirituality. Polyamory is not. Gender is not. Polyamory does not direct what kind of music I like, what kind of clothing I wear, what kind of movies I hate, or what kind of spirituality I have. Polyamory addresses how many loving, romantic relationships I have. Being a country-music lover addresses what kind of music I like. Being an atheist addresses what kind of spirituality I have. Polyamory does not address one's spirituality. Monogamy does not address one's spirituality.
There does seem to be correlations between polyamory and spirituality. Atheism and paganism seem to be over represented in the poly community more than in the general population.

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And that was the whole point of the dissent. Mono claimed that it was his monogamous nature (biological or learned is irrelevant) that made him agree with a book's new-ageyness. Ceoli and I were both pointing out that what makes a person poly or mono is not what makes Mono as an individual agree with or not agree with "new age" spirituality. Mono stood by his word choice and that was the argument.
I guess for me to know the right answer, you would have to survey monogamous people and ask them if a spiritual approach to presenting polyamory makes it more agreeable to them. If most answer "yes", then Mono has a point. Now it could be correlation without causation. It could also mean that many poly people would also agree with that statement.

But I am not sure what the original conversation was. If Mono was saying that monogamy causes the viewpoint, then I would disagree. If he was saying it was correlated with the viewpoint, then I may agree.
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