Originally Posted by rory
Even though I'm all for everybody defining sex for themselves, this is sort of an emotional topic for me. I guess I'm fine with any definition as long as it comes from questioning your internalised beliefs and seeing how you really feel about it. What I'm not fine with is that often anything besides man-woman intercourse is labeled non-sex and less than.
This also drives me crazy. Man-woman intercourse is not the only sex even though many people have that in their heads as the 'default'. Everyone should question, think about and be able to talk about their definitions.
Originally Posted by caichan
So, when we added The Boy, it occurred to me that he probably didn't have the same definitions of sex floating around in his head. This is not surprising. He was joining a long-established F-F couple who had previously had a fully open BDSM quad with a het couple; he was raised fundamentalist Christian. We planned ahead for this. We talked about how each of us define sex. We've been moving at a glacial pace, letting him take as much time as he needs to absorb each step (and, as is expected, the emotional steps have previously been much more complicated than the sexual ones). Mostly, we make out and (as much as I hate the term) dry hump.
Then, he got brave and mischevious enough to explore the lovely and I's toy box, and discovered that I'd bought condoms as a "just in case," and his head kind of exploded.
Apparently, to him this is all fooling around. To me, since we are in an incredibly intimate position, frequently wearing nothing more than underthings, and I'm having orgasms, that counts as sex. We'd actually discussed that. Using those exact words. But he didn't think of it as sex until he realized that I was serious enough to buy condoms.
I guess I'm just wondering if anyone else has had the experience of re-educating a partner who has a culturally ingrained view of sex that you left behind so long ago that you've mostly forgotten it. Also, I probably just need some hugs, because I love the boy like crazy, but he's driving me crazier than I already am at this speed.
I don't know if you need to 'educate' him. But I would be concerned about how his ideas of sex impact his perceptions of you, the F-F couple. Does he see your F-F relationship as just 'fooling around'? Because by his definition, two women literally cannot have sex. Sex requires a actual live penis attached to a actual live man. It seems that he may - perhaps unconsciously - not give full weight or respect to a F-F relationship. I would be concerned about this possibility if I were in your shoes. Note, I am not
saying this is true of everyone who holds this concept of what is sex. People hold contradictory ideas in their heads all the time. However, it is the logical outcome of that definition. And it makes gay sex (TWO penises attached to TWO live actual men) even more disturbing.
Originally Posted by AutumnalTone
If I were in his place and that's all that had happened, I'd say we hadn't had sex. If that were to continue for any length of time, I'd also conclude that there wasn't any real interest and walk on.
So I think his definitions are just fine for him and he doesn't need to be "educated" to change them.
I agree with AT that educating him is not necessary. Just be yourselves and talk to him, if he wants, about what you think sex is. Basically continue doing what you were doing - just more of it. Hopefully that will be enough to make him evaluate his own ideas. Or not. But that is not under your control. He's the one who has to do the thinking - and he may not, or decide his definitions are just fine. You're going to have be patient, and ultimately you will have to decide if you want to put up with his process (or lack thereof from your point of view).
But I have to circle back to sex=PIV intercourse issue. If it leads (or might lead) to orgasm - either for me or for my partner or both, then it is sex. So touching, kissing, hand jobs, blow jobs, masturbation (mutual or solo), PIV intercourse, bondage, dirty talk, spanking, hair pulling, stroking, sucking, finger fucking - all and more = sex.
I do realize that not all sex results in orgasm. (Although, honestly, I really don't get non-orgasm focused sex but that's just me. I tend to be goal-oriented.) But if that was the goal - to bring pleasure - then it's still sex and something just went a bit awry.