about fairness

[esarati300]

Here's the deal. I let my wife go out with this guy and I have no partner. Is that fair at all? Makes me kinda jealous that I don't have a partner. When she go see him, she go to his house. I mean, what am I getting out of this? Plus I get lonely when she leaves. she is only thinking of herself and not me. Am I going crazy? I have met this guy and he is really down to earth. Should me and the guy talk more to each other? I mean he is going out with my wife. I feel left out of the group. Any help would be nice.

 

[MonoVCPHG]

I let my wife go out with this guy and i have no partner. is that fair at all? makes me kinda jealous that i don't have a partner. What am i getting out of this? I get lonely when she leaves. she is only thinking of herself and not me. i have met this guy and he is really down to earth. should me and the guy talk more to each other? i feel left out of the group.

Do you want other partners and can't find them?

If you've opened up your relationship, then things won't happen at the same time for both of you. Accept that. If this is a one-sided thing and you agreed to it, you made your own bed. If you didn't want it and aren't okay with it, then yeah, I guess it would be unfair.

More details, please.

 

[redpepper]

You aren't going crazy. This is a common occurrence you are going through. Have a look at some threads on jealousy. You can find them by doing a tag search. It's all very normal and takes time to adjust to. It takes work to work out what you are going to do when she is out, find what boundaries you have on time with her, and to work on a metamour relationship with him. Yes, I would get to know him better. It can only help.

 

[Anneintherain]

I know one couple where the woman has been seeing people for a few years, and the man just started looking for dates recently. It seems to be somewhat stressful for him. What he has gotten out of this is an increase in her libido, from what I understand, which has been enough for him to not be out there looking until now.

If you're not happy with what is going on, renegotiate, if what you want is to be seeing others, seek them out. If you enjoy the company of the man she is seeing, that is great. I've never heard anything bad about getting to know the people your partners are dating, if you like them. It can probably lead to much more comfort overall, and in the best case scenario, to great friendships.

 

[Tonberry]

I think you should tell your wife about feeling excluded, and see if she can include you more. You could have dates with the three of you, or bonding time with her boyfriend, or have her keep you informed of things, whatever makes you feel less left out.

About fairness, well it's kind of a hard question. I don't think fairness is the same as parity. I mean that I don't think you should always have partners at the same time.

Let me explain: if you push it to its logical conclusion, if one of you breaks up with their partner, then the other one would have to, as well, even if the relationship was going great, even if there was love, etc. That would, in my opinion, not make it fair at all, even though it's about parity. It wouldn't be fair to the two people whose relationship is working, and it would be extremely unfair to the other partner who had nothing to do with any breakup.

This is similar. If she really likes this guy and he likes her, is she obligated to wait until you find someone too? That doesn't seem fair to him and her. It's too bad that you're not finding partners, and it's notoriously harder for males to find females than the other way around, so I sympathise, but I don't think putting her relationships on hold indefinitely is the way to go. I think it has the potential to damage your relationship with your wife, as she would grow to resent you more and more for not allowing her to be with someone she likes just because you can't find someone.

You can, however, ask her to be understanding of the fact that you don't have another partner, and feel lonely when she's gone, for instance. I think you should definitely find things to do when you miss her (hang out with friends, indulge in a hobby she doesn't share, etc.). You can probably find advantages to that time away from her to do things you want to do, but don't when she's around, for whatever reason.

Make sure she knows how you feel. It's very important, since otherwise you might be more and more upset with her as time goes by and she'll have no idea why.

 

[Indigomontoya]

I can definitely sympathize with you. My wife has a boyfriend and I've yet to have another partner. I understand the frustration it can bring. But as you will read (depending on a lot of variables) it is harder for men to find willing poly partners (that is, women who can share you emotionally).

I was jealous (envious) of my wife, and sometimes still am a little bit, because she has found multiple men willing to participate on an emotional level in a poly relationship. That being said, jealousy is a secondary emotion. It is never caused by an event, but rather caused by an emotional reaction to an event. Your wife has a partner, goes out, you feel scared she might leave (a common example), or you feel lonely and upset you're not going out (another example), so your reaction is to feel insecure and that leads to jealousy. So when you feel jealous, don't accept that your wife having a partner or going out is the cause of it, rather that it's your own mind creating the jealousy from insecurity, or what have you.

More details are needed. But what's keeping you from finding another partner? You cannot expect the clouds to open up and women willing to be in a polyamorous relationship with you to fall from the sky. There's a scenario I faced called valley of the dolls. It basically boils down to opening a relationship up and then expecting a flood of available partners for you. That's not going to happen, and like me, you will need to accept that relationships progress along different timelines, as do searches for partners.

I also found meeting my wife's boyfriend to be particularly helpful. I developed a friendship with him that actually is independent of my wife. We're nerds. We talk nerd to each other.

What's stopping you from going out on your own? When my wife went out with her boyfriend the first few times I was anxious, jealous and lonely, because I isolated myself. Eventually I just filled my time with friends, the gym, anything I liked, and that helped alleviate the loneliness. Bear in mind, as my wife will tell you, I'm an extrovert who can and will chat with anyone.

As for the question of fairness, have you discussed these feelings with your wife? Have you set guidelines? As a good rule, and if your wife isn't totally disregarding your feelings, her time and her relationship are in part subject to how comfortable you are, within reason. Guidelines for time spent together, how quickly her relationship progresses, etc., need to be set. But to be honest, there are limits that you need to realize, that you need to allow her relationship to grow naturally, but not at the cost of your own well-being.

 

[BlackUnicorn]

About fairness, well it's kind of a hard question. I don't think fairness is the same as parity. I mean that I don't think you should always have partners at the same time.
Let me explain: if you push it to its logical conclusion, if one of you breaks up with their partner, then the other one has to as well, even if the relationship is going great, even if there is love, etc. That would, in my opinion, not make it fair at all, even though it's about parity. It wouldn't be fair to the two people whose relationship is working, and it would be extremely unfair to the other partner who had nothing to do with any breakup.

Yep yep, parity reflects more what I understand to be the swinger mentality. You can't force either love nor connections.

If you are a male and are looking for female sexual partners, a few house rules will almost guarantee success:
1) Take a shower. Clip your nails. Get a haircut. Brush your teeth.
2) Take a look at your manners. Are you a chauvinistic pig? See point three.
3) Try to curb that open resentment you feel towards women who are not sleeping with you. It does show.
4) Still no success? Consider lowering your standards. We can't all be banging Angelina Jolie, after all. She needs sleep, too.

I personally don't believe finding sex partners is that much more difficult for men than it is for women, because finding love is difficult, period. However, if you want to get out to the dating scene, try one of these tricks;
1) Be interested. Cultivate a hobby, a pastime, a passion. People who are interested are interesting.
2) Open yourself to love. It does show.
3) Be patient. The universe seems to work in a way that when you really really want someone in your life now, nobody's out there. But when you are happy, content, fulfilled, they start coming from every direction. Literally, you can't take a walk through a bar without being hit on two or three times.

 

[Indigomontoya]

I have to echo BlackUnicorn's points. Finding a woman who is willing to share emotionally takes time, and patience. So the point of finding a pastime is twofold-- to occupy your time, and give you something to be passionate about.

 

[TL4everu2]

Yep yep, parity reflects more what I understand to be the swinger mentality. You can't force neither love nor connections.

If you are a male and are looking for female sexual partners, a few house rules will almost guarantee success;
1) Take a shower. Clip your nails. Get a haircut. Brush your teeth. See a dentist.
2) Take a look at your manners. Are you a chauvinistic pig? See point three.
3) Try to curb that open resentment you feel towards women who are not sleeping with you. It does show.
4) Still no success? Consider lowering your standards. We can't all be banging Angelina Jolie, after all. She needs sleep, too.

I personally don't believe finding sex partners is THAT much more difficult for men that it is for women, whereas finding LOVE is difficult, period. However, if you want to get out to the dating scene, try one of these tricks;
1) Be interested. Cultivate a hobby, a past time, a passion. People who are interested are interesting.
2) Open yourself to love. It does show.
3) Be patient. The universe seems to work in a way that when you really really want someone in your life like NOW, nobody's out there. And when you are happy and content and fulfilled they start coming from every direction. Literally, you can't take a walk through a bar without being hit on two or three times.

Spoken like a true woman. The harsh reality is this: A woman has but to open her legs and say "anyone wanna do it?" and she will have men begging to get into her good graces.

Men, however, have a much more difficult time. (Unless they look like a Greek god and are hung like a horse. (50% ain't bad, I guess. Which 50% is for everyone on here to think about. LMAO! J/K) A man has to be witty and cautious when looking for a woman to romance. Not to mention he has to think fast on his feet. None of these things are required by women. All she has to do is be willing to jump in the sack and she will have a man.

Now, for a relationship of more substance, yes, it is a little more difficult, but not much. Usually, all it takes for a woman to find a man is the willingness to be open to a relationship.

 

[redpepper]

If you are a male and are looking for female sexual partners, a few house rules will almost guarantee success:
1) Take a shower. Clip your nails. Brush your teeth. Get a haircut. See a dentist.
2) Take a look at your manners. Are you a chauvinistic pig? See point three.
3) Try to curb that open resentment you feel towards women who are not sleeping with you. It does show.
4) Still no success? Consider lowering your standards. We can't all be banging Angelina Jolie, after all. She needs sleep, too.
I personally don't believe finding sex partners is that much more difficult for men that it is for women, whereas finding love is difficult, period. However, if you want to get out to the dating scene, try one of these tricks:
1) Be interested. Cultivate a hobby, a pastime, a passion. People who are interested are interesting.
2) Open yourself to love. It does show.
3) Be patient. The universe seems to work in a way that when you really really want someone in your life now, nobody's out there. But when you are happy, content, fulfilled, they start coming from every direction. Literally, you can't take a walk through a bar without being hit on two or three times.

Spoken like a true woman. The harsh reality is this: A woman has but to open her legs and say "anyone wanna do it?" and she will have men begging to get into her good graces.

Men, however, have a much more difficult time (unless they look like a Greek god and are hung like a horse. 50% ain't bad, I guess. Which 50% is for everyone on here to think about. LMAO! J/K) A man has to be witty and cautious when looking for a woman to romance. Not to mention he has to think fast on his feet. None of these things are required by women. All she has to do is be willing to jump in the sack and she will have a man.

Now, for a relationship of more substance, yes, it is a little more difficult. But not much. Usually, all it takes for a woman to find a man is the willingness to be open to a relationship.

I like your list, Blackunicorn. I agree with much of what you say. Women spend a lot of time and attention on these points, and generally speaking, from my own dating experience, and from what I hear men talk about while not in the company of women, men do not.

Not that men have to be like women at all, but they need to realize that they are far more attractive if they take care of themselves. Full stop. Really, that is so broad and so valid. I know so many men that apparently talk about young thin chicks they would bang, and how pussy dries up after 30, yet they are sitting there with their beer bellies, having not seen the light of day all weekend, because they didn't leave the house and do something.

Women make a huge effort to be presentable and attractive. They make a huge effort to do things with their lives, stay active, have interesting careers, do interesting things. Many men don't seem to be as bothered to do so.

I highlighted above, because this goes both ways. We all have to do certain things to attract a mate of some kind.

As for the opening my legs and just letting all the cocks in? Yeah, I have known lots of men that have that attitude. I've gone on dates with a few. I knew one man that drove for three hours to fuck someone he met online. He had to take Viagra to get it up. But he went there and fucked her. She offered him to stay the night. He gave the excuse that he was allergic to cats and drove back.

Sad, just sad. What that does to women is just sad. If you are not kept well, or are not as "pretty" as others, then all you are good for is a fuck. If you are "pretty," and keep yourself well, and it shows, then you are objectified and used, and all you are good for is a fuck. Sometimes, someone genuinely wants to actually have an actual relationship with you! Sigh... There is such a long way to go on this stuff.

Bottom line: Men that listen to women when they tell them what would be attractive in a man will get to be with women, I think. Women have no problem telling men what they expect. It's when they blow it off that they miss the point and could possibly not have anyone interested in them. There is a huge amount of women who can't even be bothered with men, because they tend to not get this point. On dating sites, this is super evident. Many men are not given a chance because they all come off the same: just wanting to fuck. If you want to know how to attract a woman, to have a relationship with one, ask one that you respect.

Sorry, esarati300. This is a little off topic, but not really. Maybe it will help.

 

[TL4everu2]

Oh, trust me, Redpepper, I know that the attitude of women who just have to open their legs and let the cocks in is not the best. I know it is "sad." However, it is true.

The reality is this: a guy who treats women with little respect will attract more women to him. A guy who is "the nice guy" will attract women to him who think he's gay. It's a Catch 22.

I have effectively given up on "chasing" women. I can't dance, so I can't meet women at dance clubs. I am more introverted, so I have a hard time meeting them and "getting the digits." I can flirt, no problem, but to get past that point is difficult for me. Meh... It's no wonder that I'm a 95% match to my wife. She talks to almost anyone about almost anything, and could easily get a phone number.

I would also like to mention that I have never had a beer belly. I am a martial artist, so I take good care of my body. I rarely drink at all, and never smoke. I am well-groomed. And yet I still have a hard time attracting women. Most people who see me think I'm gay. Why? Because I'm tall and blond with blue eyes, or so I'm told. It's not like I sashay down the sidewalk or anything. I don't have a gay bone in my body. But for some odd reason, a lot of people think I'm gay. Ask my wife. It's odd. Maybe it's just because I'm open-minded, open to change.

 

[BlackUnicorn]

This is veering towards general 'poly and dating' conversation, but even risking it, I have to say that I have found it hard to attract partners of either sex until very lately. I put my recent semi-success down to general increased confidence and life-happiness, and the accumulated effect of having a larger social circle. I venture a guess that before, I might have been slow to pick up cues, even if someone did show interest, because in general I thought it very unlikely that anyone would be interested.

The checklist for men who are not getting laid was a humorous one made by a neighbor of mine, but I think it's made a lot less funny by the fact that TL4's post echoes the very same resentment that makes some men in the dating scene so unattractive, no matter how superficially attractive they might be on the outside.

The 'open your legs and welcome' is as untrue as saying that all men are just after sex. There are plenty of men out there who do not like sexually-forward, confident women at all.

 

[Tonberry]

Before reading BlackUnicorn's last post, I was just about to mention confidence.

For both sexes, confidence makes you more attractive, and a lack of confidence will push partners away. People mistake it for "jerk vs nice guy" because jerks tend to be confident, and nice guys might be shy. But take a confident nice guy and a jerk with no self-confidence, and the nice guy is the one getting the ladies.

The problem is compounded when the "nice guy" becomes bitter. Then not only does he have no self-confidence, but everything in him screams "I resent you" to women, which of course is not attractive at all.

There is a line where you can come across as "too" confident, when the person is just way too forward, or arrogant, or pushy. It's a tricky balance, I guess. I see how it can be easier to achieve when you don't care about the other person (no reason to be nervous about it not working, and therefore more confidence), making people who don't care (jerks) seem to have the upper hand. But in the end, it's really about confidence. You want to trust your partner. You want them to be independent. You don't want to have to constantly reassure them that things are okay. That's the way it usually works for both sexes.

Then you have those who prey on others who lack confidence and self-esteem.

Also, it's annoying to see men go "Women are so lucky. People take advantage of them. I wish women took advantage of ME!" I doubt you actually do. It's more damaging for your self-esteem than being rejected, I can assure you.

 

[fenix]

This is esarati's wife. I figured it was time to jump in and bring it back to the question he actually had.

The problem isn't that he's having trouble finding another partner of his own. It's simply that he feels left out. I am aware of this, and I'm doing everything I can think of to minimize that feeling.

We're both very new to this sort of thing. I made a point of having them meet each other. I keep him as informed as he's comfortable with. I make suggestions for him on how to fill his time while I'm away. We've talked countless times about the situation, how he feels about it, and what I can do to help him adjust. I'm actually the one that directed him here, in the hopes that you would say exactly what you did, that being fair and being equal are two very different things.

I talked with him at great length before I began to pursue this, and truthfully I never would have allowed anything to develop between the other man and me had my husband not given his okay. Once he realized that it wasn't just a one-night fling, though, he backtracked, telling me it wasn't fair for me to leave him alone to spend time with this man, even as minimally as I am (I've only seen him once a week since this started).

I told esarati I was okay with him trying to find another partner too, but he just tells me I would be too jealous if he did. I admit I do feel a little jealous when he spends time away from me, but not once have I let that stop him from doing so. I encourage it. I think it's healthy to have lives outside of each other, friends and interests and activities that aren't always shared between us. He thinks these are just justifications to get what I want.

Is there anything I'm not doing, or missteps I'm making here that I can correct? I really don't want this to distance him from me.

 

[JameeDee]

me too!

Am I going crazy? Any help would be nice.

Hi esarati,

I don't have much to add except that I'm dealing with the same jealousy issues. My situation is a little different, but that ugly green monster does have the power to make anyone feel crazy.

Work through it. Keep posting here. These guys are great!

Best of luck. Maybe we can chat about it?

 

[Ariakas]

This is esarati's wife. The problem isn't that he's having trouble finding another partner of his own. It's simply that he feels left out. I'm doing everything I can think of to minimize that feeling. I made a point to have them meet each other. I keep him as informed as he's comfortable with. I make suggestions for him on how to fill his time while I'm away. We've talked countless times about the situation, how he feels about it, and what I can do to help him adjust. I'm actually the one that directed him here, in the hopes that you would say exactly what you did.

I never would have allowed anything to develop between the other man and me had my husband not given his okay. Once he realized that it wasn't just a one-night fling, though, he backtracked, telling me it wasn't fair for me to leave him alone to spend time with this man. (I've only seen him once a week since this started.) I told esarati I was okay with him trying to find another partner too, but he just tells me I would be too jealous if he did. I admit I do feel a little jealous when he spends time away from me, but not once have I let that stop him from doing so. I encourage it. I think it's healthy to have lives outside of each other, friends and interests and activities that aren't always shared between us. He thinks these are just justifications to get what I want.

Is there anything I'm not doing, or missteps I'm making here that I can correct? I really don't want this to distance him from me.

I think this is one of those times where fairness can't be measured. Honestly, it just isn't possible. As with most things involving people, nothing is really created equally.

Fairness runs headlong into reality. So what do you do, slow down to hopefully let him catch up? Or force him to pull up his pants and deal with the reality of the situation? Then look at all the posts about dating and maybe try alternatives?

He could well be "okay" with everything as long as there is a perceived evenness. Could you do something to help this? You date someone else, and then date hubby? 1v1 is common enough in non-monogamy.

If the only fairness is going to be equal partnering, then he may need to adjust his perception. Or you can try dating another couple, perhaps (although quads are rarely "equal" either). There are lots of options, but most of them will end up with your slowing down. Will that leave you resentful? Hurt? Hindered?

You both have some decisions and thoughts to process through. We all go through them.

Early in our polyamorous journey, my wife and I discussed ending "unicorn hunting" (seeking a woman to share). There was a distinct point when I consciously decided that I couldn't play the 1v1 game. I knew I could never keep up if she really tried. She has an energy that attracts people. If we did this, her date card had a huge potential to always be full, whereas my date card would be slower and harder to achieve (just like monogamy, to be honest).

Good luck with whatever direction you decide to walk.

BTW, I commonly say this isn't a poly problem. This is a dating problem. Welcome to the reality of being available.

 

[BlackUnicorn]

This is esarati's wife. I figured it was time to jump in and bring it back to the question he actually had.

Welcome! And sorry, I was the primus motor behind hijacking this thread.

Once he realized that it wasn't just a one-night fling, though, he backtracked, telling me it wasn't fair for me to leave him alone to spend time with this man, even as minimally as I am (I've only seen him once a week since this started). I told esarati I was okay with him trying to find another partner too, but he just tells me I would be too jealous if he did. I admit I do feel a little jealous when he spends time away from me, but not once have I let that stop him from doing so. I encourage it. I think it's healthy to have lives outside of each other, friends and interests and activities that aren't always shared between us. He thinks these are just justifications to get what I want.

Redpepper and others have made some really good points about poly being different from other forms of non-monogamy because it doesn't really encourage coupled-ness. There are, of course, a lot of people who don't identify with this, but let's say poly introduces definite obstacles to the couple mentality which aren't so much of a factor in swinging, for example.

Is there anything I'm not doing, or missteps I'm making here that I can correct? I really don't want this to distance him from me.

Date nights? I really don't have much to add to what Ariakas already said. You might have to slow the down the progress of relationship number 2 to avoid distancing esarati. On the other hand, splitting all dates evenly isn't going to be a really workable solution at all times. Some distance will probably occur by the virtue of your whole relationship transitioning from the coupled-ness to more openness.

 

[Penny]

Spoken like a true woman. The harsh reality is this: A woman has but to open her legs and say "anyone wanna do it?" and she will have men begging to get into her good graces.

Uh... bitter much? I mean, sure, there's some truth to this, if the woman in question wants to be used and dehumanized. Aren't we talking about polyamory here?

Men, however, have a much more difficult time. (unless they look like a Greek god and are hung like a horse. 50% ain't bad, I guess. Which 50% is for everyone on here to think about. LMAO! J/K) A man has to be witty and cautious when looking for a woman to romance. He has to think fast on his feet. None of these things are required by women. All she has to do is be willing to jump in the sack and she will have a man.

Again, your points have some validity, but your tone is pissing me off. Yeah, if I wanted to fuck, I could step outside, ask around, and get fucked pretty fast.

I only like men who like me for my personality, so I have to be witty and intelligent and charming and all that crap.

And "cautious"? Are you kidding?

I am having a hard time not resorting to name-calling here; your attitude pisses me off so much. But I like it here, and I don't want the mods chastising me.

Now, for a relationship of more substance, yes, it's a little more difficult, but not much. Usually all it takes for a woman to find a man is the willingness to be open to a relationship.

Seriously?

 

[Penny]

I didn't read onto the next page, and the second post makes me a little less pissed off. My husband harbors the same sort of bitterness for similar reasons. It's just, if he put it like that to me, I'd call him an asshole. And then he'd laugh because we've been together for 11 years, and he's cool with me calling him an asshole. I'd like to point out that men have a lot of reason to be bitter. So do women. It sucks.

 

[TL4everu2]

Penny, I'm not bitter. But women constantly claim it's just as hard for them to find a man as it is for a man to find a woman. This simply is not true. Don't believe it? Try this experiment: Post two identical ads in any classified, anywhere, one for a male, and one for a female. See which one gets more responses, or, to be more specific, more clicks, even.

My wife's ad on OKC gets four or five guys per day clicking on her profile. Mine has gotten two in the past week, and one of them is a woman I already know in person. My profile has been gone over and re-done by a woman with zero improvement on results.

So, please, show me where I'm wrong.

As for men and women being cautious, they have to be cautious in different aspects. A man has to be cautious so as to not ruin his chances of going out on said date. A woman has to be cautious in the aspect of whether or not the guy is a creep and will he try to make a move on her when they are alone. Two totally different things here, so don't try to compare the two.

And on the last comment, yes, I am serious. Prove me wrong. There are certain extremes which are dealbreakers for some. Example: If the woman is severely disfigured, or obese, this may cause some problems in finding a man. If the woman is a drug user, or an alcoholic, this may cause some problems.

Last night, my wife and I discussed this problem together. She said I was full of crap. So, I asked her what she did when a guy looks at her profile. She said 90% of the time, she ignores it unless he messages her. I asked her what about the other 10% of the time, and WHY she ignored it that 90%? Her response? She looked at the thumbnail pic. If he looks good in that pic, then she would check out his profile. So I have deduced that I am simply not attractive enough for women to be looking at my profile. I will need to go to the plastic surgeon immediately to remedy this situation. LMAO! (Notice the sarcasm here?)

Anyway, prove to me how much easier men have it when it comes to dating than women. Post up some of your trials and tribulations.

My analysis? The obvious is, and always has been, true. Men are more visual than women, while women are more substance driven. At the same time, women want a guy who is still easy on the eyes. (It also doesn't hurt if he's got lots of money. LOL! [note more sarcasm])