Polyamory.com Forum

Polyamory.com Forum (http://www.polyamory.com/forum/index.php)
-   Fireplace (http://www.polyamory.com/forum/forumdisplay.php?f=21)
-   -   Why do people make such big deals at certain body parts? Why so much self hatred? (http://www.polyamory.com/forum/showthread.php?t=56942)

ColorsWolf 10-05-2013 07:53 PM

Why do people make such big deals at certain body parts? Why so much self hatred?
I just saw a series of pictures that move where a woman takes out her breasts and rubs them in public stores and this is what I thought and said:

I like to do this some times to, not a big deal, nothing out of the ordinary here.~ Men whip out their Gorilla chests all the time and Iíve seen obese men with bigger breasts than these, what the fuck is the difference?~

I guess it's a cultural thing, because in some if not many middle-eastern countries showing your ankles is considered indecent.~

But why, why so much hate for others and so much self-hatred, why does this exist and why has it existed for 1,000's of years in our Human species' history?~

It seems like such a HUGE waste of energy and time, why hate every thing so much?~

kdt26417 10-08-2013 10:29 PM

Ah ColorsWolf my friend, it is certainly true that humanity's history is filled with an overabundance of hatred, not the least considering the latest conflicts been Islam and Christianity, or between the Middle East and the United States. Either way, I consider it a "re-run of the Crusades." Does it take us so many hundreds of years to start to see each other as members of the same species (Homo sapiens), with wives and innocent children -- and as President Kennedy said, the shared weakness of mortality?

But let us not carry that concern so far that we consider people "self-haters" who desire to groom or modify themselves in a certain way. Isn't the whole point of inheriting one's own body the privelage of owning that body and expressing oneself through that body in one's own way? I rather rejoice in the wide diversity of ways that people express themselves "through their bodies."

Many people express themselves as "mainstream" by grooming their bodies in the "standardly-accepted fashion," and that's fine. Let them do so. It's an honest statement about how they view themselves.

How do you feel about people who pierce their ears? Mother Nature did not birth them with holes in their ears; they put them there in an artificial fashion. Doesn't that express a hatred toward one's ears? "Stupid ears: daring to cling to the sides of my head with no holes for earrings."

What about "bod-mod" people, those who pierce anything and everything and stick all kinds of painful-looking stuff through the resulting holes? Do they hate their bodies? or do they just want to express themselves through their bodies as a kind of art form?

What about people who get tattoos? Mother Nature didn't birth them with colors inserted all over their bodies. What right do they have to walk into a tattoo shop and say, "Here, print a word or a picture into my body?" Isn't that a way of saying, "I hate my plain body with its lack of messages and art forms." Or is it a way of saying, "I love my body as a canvass on which I can print the words and images that express myself?"

Of course I disagree with institutions (e.g. churches) that say, "You *have* to shave yourself. You have to represent yourself as a conformist and a part of me, your parent organization." But once all the parent organizations are removed, doesn't each person have as much a right to express themselves through their bodies as a woman has a right to choose an abortion (reasonably early in the pregnancy term)?

I have always strongly favored diversity in all its manifested forms, including the wide and creative array people display in how they groom and modify themselves. One guy conservatively shaves and trims himself. That says something about him and his personality. Another guy lets his hair grow as long as Nature intended. He, too, says something about his beliefs, ideals, and dreams. Why can't I appreciate both kinds of bodies?

Is it wrong anytime humans do anything to alter the given course of Nature? Is it wrong when we fight cancer cells, or look for ways to eliminate AIDS? Nature never told us to do that. Do we hate the course that Nature laid out for us?

Humans do so many things that are harmful to each other. It seems to me that an individual's "style of grooming" is one of the few ways we can express ourselves that is ultimately harmless. Does every African American have to let their hair grow out and become an afro? Does every Caucasian need to grow their hair to their buttocks? Is there an important social statement that needs to be made by giving Mother Nature free reign over how we look? Is every modification to our natural bodies a way of saying, "I hate Nature and my body, I want to conquer Nature, and destroy this planet?"

Humans are so prone towards hatred towards so many things. Shouldn't we concentrate on the bigger things, the things that result in the loss of human (and animal) life? Can't I "hate my body a little," and have no one else be harmed by it? Can't that be my way of coping with living in a messed-up world?

I say we let ourselves prune ourselves, and color ourselves, and alter ourselves as long as we can do so in the spirit of creativity and love. If we force each other to groom our bodies in a certain way, then I agree that we are manifesting a social disorder. But what an individual chooses, independent of any institution, is an entirely different thing.

And for that matter, why not cut one's hair if it makes one's loved one happy? It's only hair, for crying out loud. I'd be much more concerned if someone adopted a "right-wing view of politics" in order to please their right-wing partner.

ColorsWolf 10-10-2013 10:44 AM

Kevin T., I am grateful for the reply but I think after the beginning of your post you completely missed the point of my post.~

My words were in reference to NOT letting others express themselves, to force others to dress a certain way while exempting others for no logical reason, and to instill in us from birth these false ideals of 'shame' 'self-hatred' and 'inherent wrongness' for simply existing as we were born if we so choose.~

How can a culture that makes every thing, whether it is has any thing to do with reproducing or not, 'sexual' only 'half-embraces it' and 'half-suppresses, condemns, and vilifies it' possibly function on a social level?~

How can two men openly walk down the street in America while holding hands and kissing and yet a man who decides it is too hot to wear clothes is still vilified?~

You would think the more 'truly advanced' a people or society is the less unhealthy illogical problems they would have, but it seems just the opposite at times.~


kdt26417 10-11-2013 12:15 AM

Huh. I guess I am naive in my optimism about the human race. I'll be the first to admit that we have a lot of nasty awful dysfunctions, but I'd also point out that humanity isn't static. We do change over time. Yes, sometimes the changes are for the worse. But overall, the balance of all the changes weighs on the side of the good, as long as one backs up far enough to view enough of the timeline.

It wasn't that long ago that two men holding hands and kissing in public would have been met with as much widespread horror as a man undressing in public. In fact, a lot of people are still really uncomfortable with homosexuality, to put it mildly. We are still on that journey, the journey toward accepting diversity in sexual orientation. We are also on a journey toward accepting clothing-optional scenarios, but we haven't progressed nearly as far in that journey.

It's too bad that lots of people dress and groom in a certain way because they were pushed into the mindset when they were kids, or because they're desperate to fit in, or both. But people still have to make their own decisions about their own bodies. They can't always blame their parents or existing peer pressure. Polyamory wouldn't exist today if there weren't people who were willing to "resist the system."

I don't think of it as a "hatred thing." It's more of a "fear thing." What will happen to me if I don't conform? What if people stop loving me? What if they fire me, take my kids, throw me in jail? These are the kinds of things that convince people to act conservatively, even if somewhere in their hearts they'd like to throw off the shackles and be free.

Yes, we are taught to hate ourselves. What usually results, however, is that we learn to fear ourselves. The Catholic Church did a good job (over the centuries) of spreading sexual and bodily shame across the West. But hate is usually too strong of a word for that. It's more common for people to hate each other than it is for them to hate themselves, though some people certainly do learn self-despite and the lesson sticks.

Let us not add to the problem by forcing (even just in our fantasies) other people to throw off their chains. Let us set the example of live-and-let-live by letting other people choose if, when, and how they'll throw off their chains. And maybe they'll still dress and groom conservatively, but maybe they'll innovate their lives in some other less-obvious way. That's still progress.

And also, just as not all monogamy is caused by conditioning (even if most of it is), not all conservative appearance is caused by conditioning (even if most of it is). Again, it's all about diversity. Let's not try to get all people to change from one look to another, let's just be encouraging and accepting toward all people for however they do look (even if they're doing it for the wrong reasons). People are smart enough to learn how to accept themselves given time and generations.

I actually don't believe that the natural state of humans is nakedness and a full mane of hair. Our brains are too darn big and busy to go that way all across the board. Instead, I believe that the natural state of humans is a wide range (a range that certainly includes nakedness and a full mane of hair) of self-expression. As long as we get over the conditioning part of it, let's not fret over the "many strange ways" people choose to present themselves to the world.

I don't think we're a very advanced species. Someday, people will look back on how we lived today and (rightly) think we're quite primitive. Just because a skyscraper is more sophisticated than a chipped spearhead, doesn't mean that the builders deserve to be called advanced. I think it would be quite impossible for you or I to imagine what life will be like a thousand (much less a million) years from now. But I do have faith that it'll be a hell of a lot better than it is today.


"The decent moderation of today will be the least human of things tomorrow. At the time of the Spanish Inquisition, the opinion of good sense and of the good medium was certainly that people ought not to burn too large a number of heretics; extreme and unreasonable opinion obviously demanded that they burn none at all."
-- Maurice Maeterlinck

ColorsWolf 10-11-2013 02:25 AM

Kevin T., thank you for that wonderful reply.~

Just in case you thought I was trying to advocate any thing, I love and believe in diversity.~ ^_^

This thread was mainly to ask why hate at all?~ ^_^

The problem with hate is that hate breeds hate, some one hates some one else, and the hated one becomes fearful, and eventually that fear turns inwards towards themselves and into self-hatred, then because they hate themselves their turn they hatred to others who do not hate themselves and thus the cycle of hatred is.~

I believe to bring love, we must ourselves love.~ ^_^

kdt26417 10-11-2013 03:12 AM

Yes, we are in agreement that hate is a very bad thing. :)


"Why hate at all?"
The quick answer is: I don't know. But maybe you're not asking, "What *good* does it do people to hate?" Maybe you're asking, "What *causes* people to hate in the first place?"

I fondly believe that humans are born with love in their hearts (though it takes awhile for that to manifest; a newborn is by necessity strictly concerned with his/her own well-being). Hate is an artificial construct that has to be ingrained into people. Children are very trusting so if an adult teaches them to hate, they will probably take the lesson to heart. But it's easier and more natural to teach a child to love; that's what they're wired to do. Such is my fond belief (and optimism for the human species).

As for what *good* it does to hate, that's an easy one. It does no good at all. Ever. Paint and clip and dress and modify your body all you want. Just don't hate it. And please, don't hate other people. Don't even hate your enemies. Just do what you can to go your own way, and let them go theirs.

Jesus is said to have said, "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you." Well, I would add to that, "Do unto yourself as you would have you do unto others." In other words, don't roll out the red carpet for everyone else and treat yourself like crap because you figure, "Hey, self-sacrifice is good thing, right?" I know some people think it is, but me, I think it's nasty business. Love all people, and treat all people fairly, and that includes yourself.

See? We're on the same page after all. :)

ColorsWolf 10-11-2013 06:41 AM


Originally Posted by kdt26417 (Post 236684)
See? We're on the same page after all. :)

Yay!~ ^_^

Inyourendo 10-11-2013 03:22 PM

Nothing wrong with nudity. I frequently had to pull my breast out of my top to nurse the baby.now overtly being sexual and fondling your body.parts in public, imo is inappropriate and not something I want to see and certainly not my children.

ColorsWolf 10-11-2013 10:59 PM


Originally Posted by Inyourendo (Post 237091)
Nothing wrong with nudity. I frequently had to pull my breast out of my top to nurse the baby.now overtly being sexual and fondling your body.parts in public, imo is inappropriate and not something I want to see and certainly not my children.

You just completely contradicted yourself right there.~

How are we or any one to decide what is sexual?~

Some people would say the mere act of you breastfeeding is sexual because you "must" feel pleasure from it.~

You see how our own perceptions of some thing regardless of how it actually is can twist our own view of some thing?~ Especially when we just assume things without even bothering to ask how it is really is.~

kdt26417 10-12-2013 02:41 AM

Are we, then, opening the can of worms of whether sex in public is okay?

Re: public nudity ... some people say it's enough to practice nudity at home or in designated areas (e.g. nude beaches or whatever). I don't know whether to legalize nudity for *all* locations. Right now it would probably be too soon. Most people aren't ready for it.

Re: breastfeeding in public ... fine by me (as contraversial as it obviously is). Is it sexual? Don't know. Not a woman. Not an expert on these things. I guess even if it is sexual, I still think most people are, well, *ready enough* to start getting used to it.

Most questions about sex, or questions with arguably sexual connotations, strike me as a little messy, and since they can't all be left unanswered, sometimes you have to piece together a messy answer to make a truce with the messy question.

Consent, for example, is a complicated subject in my mind. Notice how countries all over the world (and even different states in the United States) have the age of consent set, well, all over the place, frankly. And is it safe to assume that an adult can give informed consent? I don't know; what about "polygamous" cults that use brainwashing to get their members to consent to it? or what about anyone who was sexually abused as a child; doesn't that impair their ability to give reliable consent? Heck, some people argue that DADT arrangements don't count as "real" consent.

Can we argue that kissing (especially on the lips) is sexual? hand-holding? putting one's hand on another person's butt? Lots of room for disagreement about where to draw the line from what I can tell.

At this time -- in this generation -- my opinion is that lots of folks are so unready to see (out-and-out) sex in public (let alone share the sight with their kids) that it isn't fair to impose it upon them. Which means that we'll be dealing with some messy questions for quite awhile.

Will it ever be "okay" to expose kids (of what age?) to the sight of out-and-out sex anywhere? Uh, I don't even want to touch that question.

I sense a big ol' contraversy brewing. Crap.

All times are GMT. The time now is 01:51 PM.