Hello All and I am shocked!!!
Greetings from East Asia. I joined this forum few weeks ago. I am in a weird V. Inter-racial, inter-cultural V with two Monos. Before you jump the gun and say, so what you have is an “affair”, let me first admit it all DID start as some kind of an affair. But now I don’t even know what to call it any more. Sorry this is going to be a long post. But I am not sure, how can I ask for suggestions, unless I state the background clearly. Sorry for the length of the post though...
I am a mid 30s South Asian man in an emotional and physical relationship with two ardently MONO women, P1 and P2. P1 is 5years younger than me and P2 is 3years; if that matters.
P1 is my wife of 11years and cohabited for almost 13 and we have a 6year old kid together. P1 is South Asian as well. Our marriage has been going through some nasty rough patch for at least 6-7years now. P1 is extremely possessive, ill-tempered and could even get violent (physical assaults and self-harm) when agitated. P1 loves to play the stereotypical South Asian homemaker, without wanting to know how budgeting, household expenditures etc are taken care of. Despite my pleas, threats and indifference, she refused (despite being a computer science graduate) to build a career or contribute financially to the household until a year and half ago. Now she is trying though albeit unsuccessfully. Our marriage was anything but smooth from very early on. But there is a sense of security that she provides me. Our sexual life has been mediocre at best! But P1 knows me better than anyone else. And is the most loyal person I have ever come across in my whole life.
P2, whom I am in relationship for 1.5+years; is of East Asian origins, married with two kids. She is also a Science graduate but hold a govt Job. And is very career oriented and independent. But her marriage is dead (or so she says and believes). Her husband is possibly a closet homosexual(what we call “straight-acting”) or in a relationship(hetro or homo) with someone else. And there has been no emotional and physical relationship between them for close to 2 years. And things weren’t any great before too with an yearly average of less than 10times, when it comes to intimacy. P2 and her husband do not support financially each other and is in a unequal contributors for their household. Where unfortunately 70% of the financial burden is shared by her, including kids education while remaining 30% is born by her husband.
P2 is fiercely independent, but she does have many a traits that are beyond being “pet-peeves”. P2 has a very big ego, and is borderline to moderate NPD(based on the season :) ). And when she is in NPD mode, she is extremely cold hearted and mean. And will resort to pathological lying just to win an argument or not to surrender her ego. She also uses exaggerations to emotionally coerce me in to lose an argument. She also has a wicked tongue that could put an old-school pirate to shame in creative use of f-words and other profanities.
This has been a major issue in our relationship from very early on. But now, I somehow can see through it most of the time. After all that cursing and swearing, with in a matter of minutes she would make-up with me again. And we had a very turbulent relationship in past few months, and had at least 20breakups since this February. Ok this may sound weird and childish. But none of the breakups lasted more than 7days. Sometimes I feel bad, and knowingly give-in and apologize, and she would readily make up with me. In situations were I wouldn’t do it, she would come back and apologize, in turn make up again.
I was very confused due to so many such incidents (breakups, verbal assaults and lying), what she really wanted from me, thought whether it was just a sexual or emotional attachment, or an infatuation. But in time, I have realized that there is something substantial between us. There were times I even felt, am I just being used and being a toy-boy. P2 can be extremely selfish at times. But now I have certain amount of confidence in her, and beyond all the ego and stupid things she says, I know she truly loves me. She is just afraid of being vulnerable that’s all. And these days, I can make out which is a lie (to win an argument,/ gain sympathy/ to cover-up a mistake she made), from what she is telling me truthfully. And she never used me financially, neither she was ever only in for sex. In fact it was me who wanted more sex than her. And sex between us is very good.
Would I be correct in assuming that II has explained the issue?
Sorry for the confusion.
I have no great advice for you regarding your personal relationship situation. I have read your original post and this one. No real advice-because all I can see is that there is some serious dysfunctional and abusive issues.
But I wish you the best in finding what you need.
A wierd V and Poly Blues
Let me continue with the whole post anyway at least I took 2+hours to write it :)
Both P1 and P2 are aware of each other’s presence in my life and hostile with each other to some extend (Yes there have been 3-way nasty fights with, each being blamed for supporting the other). But beyond all that fight there is some kind of a Micki & Maude scenario now.
P1 is right now is almost acceptance mode where (don’t ask, don’t tell rules apply). P1 has deep routed insecurity problems and more over severe attachment to me. She has been with me from 18years on. And the fact that she has never been in any relationship other than with me makes her even more insecure. Also she really understands the fact that I genuinely care for her and I support her no matter what. These, I think are the main factors for her to not to seek a divorce, even after I offered it with alimony. She also doesn’t want our kid to grow up in a broken family. P1’s greatest issue is whether I will walk out on her for P2. And what made me fall for P2 so much, something that has never happened in last 13years, even when I have been women friends who were romantically interested in me(and P2 knew about it). The fact that P2 is someway special to me is the biggest source of P1’s insecurity and the second reason in P2 and I had great sexual chemistry which P1 and I lacked later on. And it indeed is a BIG BIG issue for her, and she blames always “how are you being able to give her things I never had, when I am not satisfied with our sexual life”
There was a time, I actually wanted to end the relationship with P1 and be exclusive to P2, but later I realized that, it was only because of the harassment, abuse and assaults P1 dished out in reaction to P2’s presence. But in reality, I still care and love her a lot. We have 13years of history and despite all the shit, there were still few good things. No one can read my mind like P1. But I am really afraid that I won’t be happy, if I go back to being exclusive to P1 again. I have given P1 many chances to “see others” and open up the marriage with a caveat that, it might also end my “sexual relationship with her” or at least we wouldn’t have it simultaneously, and she will have to undergo blood work from time to time. But she refused to have another relationship, both sexual and emotional, saying she can’t even think of being intimate or even in love with anyone other than me. And goes on to blame for making her incapable of loving anyone else.
P2 is in an acceptance mode because, she doesn’t want to lose her kids and her husband doesn’t want to agree on a mutual divorce unless he gets both the kids. P2 is a panicky person and doesn’t want to lose the kids. So would like to maintain the status quo in the dysfunctional marriage for now. And probably because of that, she is willing to accept P1 and my primary partner and my sexual non-exclusivity with her. Also social acceptance in her circles (Divorce is still considered a big taboo here, nevertheless plenty of ppl do divorce) matters to her a lot as well. Next big issue is, my existence is totally unknown to her hubby. That means she is in “an affair/cheating relationship with me”. Which is one of the main reasons for this post.
When I realized about P2’s “do whatever it takes to preserve ego” and instances of pathological lying just push the blame, I have decided to totally break myself out of her, and I considered that she must be severe NPD. And I wanted to get the hell out. But later I realized that, beneath all that, P2 still has a conscious and deep affection and love for me. She has proven it multiple times. Just like P1, I have given P2 a choice of opening up the relationship or a choice of staying only as close Friends or FWBs(if she is exclusive). And I suggested. She could meet someone else for her romantic and/or sexual needs. But that latter means, she would have to make our relationship an emotional but non-sexual one as I can only have exclusive partners. She reacted with abuse when I said that, and asked me what kind of an “ass*ole” I am, and went on to give me a lecture on how she can’t even imagine anyone other than me touching her. So in summary, she doesn’t want to open-up as well.
A wierd V and Poly Blues
last Part :) Hope the mods approve it.. Continuing....
That brings us to me and my paranoia. I have borderline OCD when it comes to germs. So when it comes to body-fluids/fluid-bonding; I want my partner to be clean and exclusive. Since I wouldn’t have any control over any third-party’s hygiene and/or risk profile; I cannot let my partners that I fluid-bond with anyone other than me or each other. So that leaves me with no other option but to be always in closed-relationships. Poly or not. P1 never had a boyfriend or even anyone emotionally or physically intimate with other than me. P2, had 3 relationships in the past, where 3rd one is her current husband. But she had physical intimacy only with her husband and me. So P2’s risk profile was pretty decent, and made a substantial impact, when I decided to pursue a relationship with her. P2 doesn’t have physical relationship with her “acting” husband anymore, and she is exclusive to me. We also did a two round(second round was to reaffirm after the detection window) of thorough STI and STD blood work even before deep kissing
Yeah I know I am a freak, but it serves me well. I never had a NSA or ONS in my life, and I never will. Casual sex is not my thing, not because of pseudo-moralistic reasons but because of my heavy reservations. And P2 always comply with my OCD/Paranoia, so does P1. No I am not like the “Nat Geo” type OCD sufferer. But some basic ground rules are good enough for me, like changing dress after visiting clinics, hand-washing when entering house, not to jump on the bed with a dress that you wore while taking public transport etc. And both P1 and P2 do comply to these(at least when I am around)
Ok that brings us to the questions and my dilemma. Please be brutally honest with your opinions.
1) Both my relationships are a far cry from perfect, but is there anything called a perfect relationship?
2) Even if individually both women doesn’t make me that happy, together, I think I feel pretty decently satisfied (yes there are things I over look but again it goes back to qtn No1). But I think I will be equally satisfied with a single woman who could address these needs. So that means am I a poly just because of my circumstances?
3) I have a big ethical dilemma when it comes P2’s husband. As far as he is concerned, I am still gonna be a “Secret lover”, if and when found out. Should I consider it as only P2’s problem for her to deal with or should I consider it as my responsibility as well and walk away from it, as it conflicts with my idea of an ethical relationship?
4) The acceptance of P1 and P2 probably is because, they don’t want to “lose me” or because of the “situation” they are in. and not because they are comfortable with me being non-exclusive. Both women are extremely jealous and possessive about me. Isn’t a sure shot recipe for a disaster?
5) Will things get better in the long run? Or is there anything I can do at all to make things better?
Words fail me..........*breathe*
Does your wife know about your other relationship?
A wierd V and Poly Blues
Actually there are two more parts to my post... I am awaiting mod approval for those two.. It is the one that actually contains my questions :)
Welcome to our forum.
I don't know whether all of your posts have made it through the mod approval process yet, but I will give my response to what has been published on this thread so far.
First of all, I don't think you should be concerning yourself about "whether you're really poly." That's a purely semantic question, and it has no bearing on more important questions such as, "Is your current situation really going to make you happy?" and, "Is this really the best thing for P1 and P2?" Although there are those who consider polyamory to be an instrinsic improvement over monogamy, I personally consider polyamory and monogamy to be on the same level of value. Either kind of life has the potential to do good or harm. It depends on the individuals involved and on the specifics of the situation. All people are highly unique and have their own unique wants and needs in life.
From what I have read of what you have wrote, you do not in your heart want this situation with P1 and P2 to end, despite the dysfunctions and ethical dilemmas. I don't think you can go against what's in your heart. You will have to make the best of the situation unless and until you feel differently about it.
Be aware that P2's husband is a potentially explosive element, and you may have to deal with a lot of fallout if he ever finds out what she's been up to. Secret affairs rarely stay secret forever. It would be a good idea if you had an exit strategy from this part of the situation. Right now, it looks like P2 needs to divorce her husband.
It seems to me that P1 and P2 both have substantial emotional handicaps, and it doesn't look hopeful that either of them will ever really want to share you with the other. It's possible this uncomfortable status quo could stay in place forever, but there is also the chance that it will eventually blow up. You will have to accept this as a real risk as long as you stay in the situation.
I don't think there's much you can do to improve the situation. You can always hope things will gradually improve, and they might. For the moment, you are mostly stuck with just enduring the problems. The only thing that sometimes helps in poly problems is a substantial commitment to communication, and P1 and P2 would have to share that commitment. It might be worth considering sitting down with P1 and P2 on a regular basis (such as once a week or once a month) and discussing everyone's wants, needs, and feelings. During these discussions, it will be important to not assign blame, but rather to just get everyone's feelings out on the table.
Communication will be badly hampered by any dishonesty, so P2's tendency to spin the truth will really make communication a challenge. There isn't much you can do about that, other than asking P2 to be more honest, and of course she might not take well to that suggestion.
Ultimately, what you have to decide is whether this particular poly situation is worth it to you. To me it sounds like it is rife with problems, but since I am not in the situation nor in your shoes, it's not really my place to say whether it's worth it. I fancy that if I were in the situation, I would think it was not worth it, but as I said from what you have written it sounds to me like this situation is where your heart truly resides, so I guess you should continue to ride it out and see what happens.
There are a few suggestions in this post of things you can try to maybe improve the situation. But be prepared for the possibility that your own efforts may not be enough. P1 and P2 have to be willing to change too, and only they can make that decision.
The OCD about germs seems to me to be something of a problem in spite of its benefits, but I won't try to address that issue in this post. Again, if that's what you're committed to in your heart, then that's what you have to make the best of. I just thought it was worth mentioning.
I hope this post is in some way helpful.
I can't tell you how grateful I feel after reading your reply. Nobody until now has given me any suggestion not even remotely as good as this.
By the way P1 and I did visit a psychiatrist. The problem was the shrink we visited was in South Asia near P1's home town. And needless to say it didn't really work much(this is a place where some shrinks still think homosexuality is a disease) except for getting medicines for P1's Panic attack and my possible depression(No I am not clinically depressed). He suggested couple therapy. But P1 has been living with her folks for few months now. And P1 has severe separation anxiety and associated insecurity, which manifests as verbal abuse and constant harassment on phone through texts or calls. If I block her or refuse to answer, she will turn against P2. And threaten P2 of blowing her cover, sending emails to her work place and hubby and all that. So P2 is effectively used as a ransom, which is SICK! But in reality P1 hasn't done much damage in action so far other than by words. But as you know, words are enough to torment. And worse, whenever P2 gets harassed by P1, P2 will come back and use me as an emotional "punching bag" to vent her anger and frustration. So it's like a chain reaction. Luckily it's been all quiet for a month and a half now though...
The shrink we visited sees non-monogamous relationships as a SIN. And his personal judgement is hampering any further consultation with him. Here in East Asia, I couldn't find anyone so far due to language issues. May be I will try in South East Asia.
This brings to another interesting topic, my view on ethics and morality are quite different from the average South Asian population. I never believed in stuff like "arranged marriage"(which I consider stupid and obnoxious). I lived in with P1 for 1.5years before getting legally married, it was considered a big taboo by rest of the society. Unfortunately some of those traits of orthodoxy is shared by P1 too. And she is worried about "losing face" if we have to divorce and always blame me with questions like "Why you chose to marry me if I am not good enough for you?", "I even lived with you 1.5years before marriage and now how can you not be committed?".
What she totally misses out on is people can change and grow. And people's views can change. Especially if it was earlier on based on then existing social conventions. I no longer live in South Asia, but instead I live in a cosmopolitan and modern society. Neither I share the majority of cultural traits of the South Asian people back home, so it gets difficult when people, including licensed psychiatrists start judging based on their Social norms...
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