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-   -   Confused (http://www.polyamory.com/forum/showthread.php?t=44256)

Nox 04-06-2013 12:24 PM

I'm talking to T online last night in a social chat, and she seemed distracted. She says she's just tired. We retire to private for a bit before planning to sign off. There's less distraction, but again, she is tired. We sign off. I do my ritual of sending her a good night text and fall asleep. Two hours later she sends me a goodnight text back. She lives two time zones away. It's currently an online relationship, but I'll see her in July, so I think of it more as a long distance relationship.

T is a white liar. She hides her poly side from 2 of her 3 boyfriends (M is one). One knows nothing except she's online a lot. One online she lies to directly (she's been with him in real life too), though he knows she has a real life bf. She's got at least one other online regular playmate, and a friend that I think is now platonic, but was also a lover. She sees lying as necessary to protect other people's feelings. M would be leave her if he knew she and I were together, but she has no interest in an exclusive relationship with M for a variety of reasons. M isn't exclusive either. So to protect the relationship they have, she lies to him. I certainly see the logic, even if I can't deal with it myself.

I have told her that I can't deal with lying. I'm very insecure when it comes to relationships and if I can't that the person I'm with is telling the truth, then I become a nervous wreck. She seems to understand that and has trusted me with all her stories. I know about all (most?) of the boyfriends.

So here's where I'm confused. All the evidence points to that she wasn't tired. She was with one of her other men last night. If she told me, of course my feelings would have been hurt, but I've never tried to make her mine exclusively nor make her feel bad for not spending time with me instead. In fact, quite the opposite. I fear we spend too much time together. But she didn't tell me, and when you're "so tired" you don't spend two hours getting ready for bed.

But what if she did? Maybe some email. Got distracted. She does take 30 minutes easy getting ready for bed. Could it have taken two hours? It's unlikely, but it's possible.

I KNOW she loves me very much. She wouldn't trust me the way she does if that wasn't the case. She's an extremely private person, but has let me in with details that could destroy her personal and public life.

So I don't know whether to confront her with accusations that are likely true, but in the grand scheme of things are just my insecurities. It doesn't really matter if she said good night because she was tired or because she had a date. That's the way she thinks. And logically it's true. I think, of course, it matters because if you lied to me about that, what else are you lying to me about?

I'll probably confront her. It's the way I am. I won't be able to hide my worry. All that will come of it is we will both be hurt though.

Nox 04-06-2013 06:26 PM

Well, I handled that poorly. She texted me first this morning, and she must have anticipated an issue. after saying good morning and saying I had been busy, I said, "did you sleep ok? looked like you went to bed late after saying you were tired."

she replied, "ouch! " and that she'd talk to me later since she couldn't really have that conversation at the time. we talked briefly with me apologizing and saying I didnt mean for it to be hurtful. her saying it was but not giving any other commentary. she then changed the subject, and had an appointment she needed to get to (and is causing her anxiety)

Sorry for the poor capitalization. forums and my phone havent been playing well together. ill update more later.

Nox 04-06-2013 11:03 PM

Talked to her for a while this afternoon. She says she wasn't distracted and had a good time. Emphatically said she wasn't talking to anyone else (early in the evening). For those not familiar with online chats, if you're chatting with someone else, it's similiar to trying to have two phone conversations at the same time. Not quite as bad, but people who are familiar with you will notice your patterns.

So, if that's the case, I just made the whole thing up. I guess. She said she still wouldn't be able to tell me she was ending a chat with me to go talk to someone else. She feels it would hurt my feelings. Which it would, but the not knowing hurts more. She can't relate to that though, so I have to accept it.

There still some unresolved issues, but I don't know that they are solvable. I'm a planner. I like to think of her and I years from now. She's not. She lives with us in the now. Part of that is my relationships don't end. Her's do.

I've got to find a way to relax. She's helping though, so we'll see.

Nox 04-08-2013 01:56 PM

Well, she was helping until last night. Now it just raises more questions.

She came to visit for a few minutes in a public chat. Things seemed ok, and then she says, "I'm too exhausted to chat." We say goodbye. I head to bed shortly thereafter. 90 minutes later, I get a text asking if I'm awake (because she's feeling a little depressed). about 20 minutes later I wake up and notice it. I plan on leaving the "if you were so exhausted to talk to me, why are you up 2 hours later" alone, but she pre-empts it by asking me, "Why are you awake?"

So I have to ask in return, "Are you ok? You said you were exhausted hours ago. What's keeping you up?"

She claims it was she wanted to be anti-social, and did house work. I don't buy it. If she needed to do housework, she could have just said, "I just wanted to see you for a few minutes, but unfortunately I have things I have to do before bed."

It sure seems like she's lying to me, but maybe I'm just paranoid and does it even matter?

Nox 04-08-2013 06:52 PM

So, now I get to look like an ass. She's dealing with some depression issues. That will throw anyone off. I don't know if we'll be back to normal, but at least I have context. I can definitely support her rather than aggravating the situation.

Nox 04-12-2013 04:16 PM

Communication question:

T has been having depression issues so hasn't really been up for anything but short superficial chats. I appreciate the time she has made for me.

Last night, however, she was upset because her yahoo messenger stopped working on her pc. It's important to her because that's how she primarily communicates with many of her friends. I understand this as well. When tech stuff goes wrong I'll drive for hours trying to fix it if that's what it takes, and I get super irritable if people interrupt me.

So, I spent two and a half hours trying to help her fix it, finally deciding just to use trillian instead. By then we were both exhausted. This morning a sent her good morning texts and then didn't hear anything from her for hours until I received a "help! Trillian isn't working" message from her.

I'm missing our quality time together, was being romantic this morning, and the first message I get hours later without any acknowledgement is "help, I can't talk to people besides you!"

Can I communicate that it hurt my feelings? Am I being insensitive with the other stuff going on?

Vixtoria 04-12-2013 04:47 PM

Okay, I know I might get flamed or in trouble for this but I have to say something. I've been reading this posts and not posting just because there is honestly SO MUCH.

I will try and sum up but I know I will miss stuff. Here's why I, and probably a few others, haven't replied yet.

1) You are in a relationship with a woman that says she's poly but also admits she will lie. TO SPARE FEELINGS. Sorry, you won't find many people here that think it's a good idea to date someone that is lying to their lovers. For safety reasons, it means that someone you are sleeping with is sleeping with others and you have no idea if they are safe, if someone has something, if you need to up your own protection. She is NOT sparing feelings, just adding drama because she thinks she is protecting herself, but she is putting everyone she cares about in a situation where they aren't ABLE to make informed decisions of their own safety! That's so incredibly inappropriate that most advice would be RUN.

2) You have said that while you are not going to say anything about her lying to other people YOU want her to be honest with you. That you want honesty no matter what and she refuses! The fact that it's not, 'this is hard for me and so I'll try but my instinct for so long is to hide or lie about something I think will hurt people I love.', but just, oh well if I lie I lie to you, that's the way I am, is another sign to RUN!

3) You are confused, because now you have to play detective since she won't tell you the truth. How can you have a good strong relationship of any kind when there isn't trust. No, don't say you do trust her , BUT. If you know she lies to you, you start questioning things she's doing and can't get a real answer one way or another, there's no trust. RUN RUN RUN!

4) You finally confront her saying you just want honesty, the truth and her reaction is 'I have a mental illness!' Look around the site enough, you will find many of us have mental illlnesses. You may even see what a pet peeve it is of mine personally to use it as an excuse. I can state how I'm feeling, how hard it is for me to function, and ask for some time, or help in working out the problems we are having. I do NOT advocate using it as a blanket excuse to never answer a question. Hell, when we were having problems, DH and I, a doctor even told him that because of my depression things I was doing that weren't healthy were me coping and so he should deal. I cringe at that! If it's not healthy but it works, I understand, but if you are being told you are hurting someone else? Then you need to say I need help finding some other way to deal. She never answered your questions, never acknowledged your worries, just says "I'm dealing with depression" as a reason to NOT discuss things? Well then, RUN RUN RUN RUN

I get it, you love her, you want this to work. You want to be able to discuss your worries, your frustrations and even times you feel your feelings were hurt or her actions hurt you. We own our feelings, yes, but in any relationship, if you can not discuss, calmly and appropriately, things that bother you, then things will just build up. It will stifle the relationship. You keep asking if it's 'okay' for you to express yourself to her, to ask for your needs and emotions to be valid and met. Of course it is! However, she doesn't seem to care much about that. She is comfortable dating who she wants and NOT giving them the option of a monogamous or honest poly relationship. She has taken that decision AWAY from people.

Over and over, in many varying questions, the answer comes down to, are both parties wanting to work on it? Can you ask if both parties are interested in doing the work on the relationship? It doesn't look like that is the case. So questions of 'Can I tell her I was upset?' are just redundant. The truth is, you know the answer, you just wish it wasn't the answer.

GalaGirl 04-12-2013 04:57 PM

Sounds like you are not getting your needs met.

You could take initiative. Like in the latest thing... Don't be snarky or sarcastic. Just straight up talk. Something like...
"I've been missing our quality time together, I was being romantic this morning. When the first message I hear from you later is "help, I can't talk to people besides you!" I feel skipped over and not SEEN.

Could you please be willing to greet me first and THEN move on to making requests for me to fix things for you so I can feel good about being acknowledged? "
There's so much else though that is lacking. Maybe time to step back from the "day to day" probs and look at the "over all trend" here? Accept this isn't especially fulfilling for you when she generally treats you this way? It's not changing. :(


Nox 04-12-2013 05:51 PM

Interesting responses. Thank you both.

Part of the issue is I'm definitely overly emotional. When I come to this thread it's not when I'm thinking clearly.

Important note: This is at best a long distance relationship. It's better to classify as online only because even in a perfect world, I'm only going be able to see her twice per year.

Victoria: Running away is an impossibility. I am happier in the last year than I've been for as long as I can remember. There's a lot of NRE in this too. All the highs are high and the lows are low. I CAN and do discuss fears and worries. I'm more talking about timing. She doesn't use her depression as a counter to my feelings. She uses it to explain her lack of energy and enthusiasm. When I express something, she always apologizes and empathizes. She may not feel she did anything wrong, nor that she will always do something different in the future, but she acknowledges, empathizes and we try to work something out together.

Lying: I don't think she has ever lied to me. I suspect it, but there's no way I can confirm it. And they've all been of the, "I'm tired. Good night." and then she goes to chat with someone else... MAYBE. And even if that's the case, so what? She doesn't have the right to talk to someone else? Of course she does. Does she lie to her other partners? I guess? But let's be real, while it's not the optimal solution, it's not all that uncommon. Going forward, the question I have asked is "will you tell me you're saying good night to me if you have plans with G/J/R" and the answer was "probably not." While I would like to know, if she's not comfortable telling me, I can't demand it, and the true outcome is the same either way. She's saying goodnight. But bottom line, I know about all her lovers. She trusts me in ways that are so deep and so sincere. I think trust issues are not me trusting her, but my insecurities. It was only in the last year that I 100% believed that my wife loves me and wants me, and she's never done a thing to come anywhere near violating a trust.

Regarding partners: If we ever have sex, it will be protected. I have a wife to protect. And to clarify, she is only bodily fluid sexually active (and for all i know they use protection) with one person.

Gala: Thank you. I just wanted to make sure I wasn't being inconsiderate of a wave of depression. I don't want to make it any worse.

Anyway, we've already talked and she worked it out without me saying anything. She heaped lots of affection on me. If I would let these things sit for 24 hours, they'd all go away. We communicate really well, but we are both pretty emotional.

And the "over all trend" is very positive. It's part of what scares me. The nature of our lives is that there's only so much we can give each other, and we have to work within that framework. But it's stressful when it doesn't line up perfectly.

Thank you both for your responses.

nancyfore 04-12-2013 11:34 PM

"Lying: I don't think she has ever lied to me. I suspect it, but there's no way I can confirm it. And they've all been of the, "I'm tired. Good night." and then she goes to chat with someone else... MAYBE. And even if that's the case, so what? She doesn't have the right to talk to someone else? Of course she does. Does she lie to her other partners? I guess? But let's be real, while it's not the optimal solution, it's not all that uncommon"

Ok.. Lying is common.. does that make it right? Does it make it better for you? Do you feel ok with it??

I think the answer is no and you are making excuses for her. Which isnt a good thing to do.. Lying by omission is still a lie..

Yes she does have the right to talk to any one she wants but she also should have the expectation to tell the truth and not omit things if she wants a relationship with more than one person.

I mean this in the nicest way, but it seems as though by your statements that you are enabling her dishonesty...

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