Honesty and Openess
Extension from this thread covering the topic of honesty and disclosure.
basically I think of myself as one of the more honest persons I know. When I was a kid I started making up stories and lied all the time through high school. When I was 17 I fell in love with this girl and we ended up breaking up because I lied to her. It affected me deeply and since then I vowed that I would be honest with others and myself.
My "withholding" with Nyx. An example is what I was doing with these other two women when Nyx and I were still dating. First problem was my first date. I had told Nyx about a month or so earlier (Feb-Mar?) that I wanted to go back to being in open relationships. I then met a girl, Lily, who oddly enough mentioned in the first 15 minutes I knew her that she was poly (another story for another time). So we exchanged numbers, I told Nyx that I had met her and was interested. Nyx was pissed, we talked it out some. I called Lily one day, picked her up and took her to coffee , but I didn't tell Nyxt (I know NOW, big mistake!) Nyx saw us downtown (I mean, we weren't hiding by any means. My mistake was in thinking that since we were in an open relationship I could hang out with another woman without filing a petition and making a declaration of action. I don't remember the specifics, but it was sort of an impromptu "let's get a coffee" sort of thing and I had no intention at any time of keeping this a clandestine affair. So, seeing us downtown, Nyx flew into a rage, circled the block, called me and tore me a new one when I answered. I apologized to Lily for having to ditch out on her (she said not to worry about it and that she could walk home) and went to try and calm Nyx down. She was tossing me out but eventually we talked it out.
So, not a great foray into the world of poly.
The problem always seemed to be that no amount of information was enough. Or that it could not come soon enough. Which was also a problem for me. I imagine that I want to go on a date, so I tell Nyx about it. She gets upset and we fight about it. So now, I go on a date feeling crappy/worried about Nyx. Or I call and cancel the date because I'm feeling crappy about going on it. Not the ideal I've had in mind.
Another example. I had my first kiss with Bee one night in the parking lot after rehearsals. Cloud 9, right? Well sure, except I hadn't planned on having a first kiss that night, so I hadn't notified Nyx in advance which now means I need to tell her ASAP because every minute that passes is seen in her eyes as another minute of betrayal, deception, withholding, non-disclosure type lying. So cloud 9 has this bigger, ominous thundercloud over it.
Which makes me want to delay... just a little while. It's not that I don't want Nyx to know, I just want to enjoy the bliss for maybe a little while before I get into a knock down drag out fight?
If you didn't like how Nyx wanted the boundaries to be, or the patterns that were repeated, you might have wanted to end this relationship because of some fundamental incompatibilities. Nothing WRONG, just incompatible.
For example- the first kiss with Bee: If your agreement was to talk B4 anything physical happened, then you may have wanted to back off, say to Nyx "I want to do x with y" first. If she agreed, and you went forward, and she still freaked out: there go those incompatibilities again. (disclaimer: this relationship paradigm is hard... i get that. But if the behavior someone, say Nyx's NEVER changes, after repeated events that are AGREED upon over much time, then that is a PATTERN of behavior to watch out for).
So, you SHOULD have a big dark cloud hanging over you... it is called guilt. it only comes if one feels they are doing something inconsiderate, wrong, etc. OR they could have no heart, and feel nothing which I doubt is you. I would examine why that comes from you, inside. Not project it outwards on Nyx. It is your feeling, it must be there for a reason.
If I were Nyx, I would question your intentions too. Your pattern contains withholding of information. Even little things done repeatedly can have a big impact: e.g. not telling her about coffee date.
All anyone has to go off of is someone past behavior - it is the best predictor of future behavior. Sure, people make mistakes, they can change, etc. but it takes ALOT to show someone you love that that is the case. Arguing semantics doesn't do it for me.
This post is focused on you, because it is your thread... I am by NO MEANS talking sides here. I get from your replies on this forum that you want to protect yourself. How about, just looking inward and seeing how you can become a better partner as a result of this experience?
sounds like a mess.
What I hear-unsaid from both posts is so similar to what I heard for the last however many years.
I sense that you are a more "go with the flow" person.
But Nyx-she's a planner.
(check out "please understand me" do the test. JUST DO IT and see if the shoes fit).
It's not that two people so different CAN'T make it work (Maca is a planner and I'm a "go with the flow" person. He's a "what if'r" and I'm a "it will all work out in time".)
BUT it does mean that you both NEED repeat NEED to understand your inherent diffferences.
For Maca, the kiss thing and the coffee thing could have sent him into a tailspin. For me-ah well how interesting these opportunities that crop up.
But I love Maca, not some random person like me. SO if I got a call to "just go out" I would call him from my cell and say "hey joe blow called and asked me to coffee. I'll be home by (pick appropriate number)".
IN RETURN-Maca loves ME not some other random person like him. So his response needs to be along the lines of "THANK YOU for calling me I know you are such a fly by the seat of your pants girl but it really helps me if you give me a "warning". I can't wait to see you at (named time) I love you."
If he flies off the handle when I DID call to tell him-well the whole thing fails and in turn if this is repetitive the whole relationship fails. IF I don't make the call when I head out the whole thing fails and in turn if this is repetitive the whole relationship fails....
It takes both of you working to be understanding of each other's needs/desires to make a relationship work. IF you can't-then you need to love yourselves and each other enough to stop being lovers.
As Mono said somewhere-he will always love RP, but that doesn't mean he can commit to ALWAYS having THIS type of relationship with her. THAT depends on it continuing to be mutually beneficial (my words but generally I think this was his point).
I don't know much else about your situation(s), so I don't know what else to say.
I am here because I want to be a better partner, to make poly work.
I was operating under the principle that I have stated, we have agreed that we are in an open relationship. This means I'm going to be flirting, maybe get a phone number, be chatting with other people, going to coffee or some other date, maybe even getting to kissing.
To me, this is pretty simple, innocuous sort of stuff that happens a lot. I was in another relationship before Nyx that was an open relationship. I might go to a party, talk to another girl, get a number, go on a date, maybe it didn't work out. I would mention it to my partner later that week or maybe not, but it wasn't a big deal either way. It seemed well understood that those sort of things would happen and we didn't need to fill out a full detailed report on every little incident. Now if the date went well or we were interested in someone and knew things were progressing, we would talk in more detail.
So back to the first kiss. I mean, I had told Nyx about Bee, she knew I was interested in her, she knew I was going to go beyond no-contact flirting, so why should I feel guilt at kissing her? Guilt because she didn't know the exact moment it happened? What is the proper action? Should I stop just before and say "hang on, I need to call my g/f and let her know I'm about to kiss you." or send her a text just after?
I settled for mentioning it the next day in a response to an email she sent previously.
I didn't feel that kissing Bee was inconsiderate or wrong in any way in regards to Nyx. But maybe I'm wrong about that. I guess my feeling is that it is between Bee and I, and doesn't change how I feel about Nyx. And I don't know if it changes the way Nyx feels about me, but my first instinct is that it does not. Momentary discomfort, but not something that changes ultimately how she views me.
I DID know that it would bother her to know we kissed because she would start to conjecture that I'm going to like Bee better or want to spend all my time with Bee now or dump her for Bee.... but I have been up and down those conversations with her, my stance being that those ideas about what I'm feeling are from a monogamous paradigm. I'm not deciding which one I want for my one and only, the way a monogamous person would be doing if they were dating more than one person. The anticipation of having this conversation yet again is the dark thundercloud, not the feeling that I've acted in a way other than the EXACT way I've illustrated that I planned on acting the entire time.
My pattern has been to tell a prospective partner that I want an open relationship, to detail what I mean by an open relationship and then act in a manner consistent with my stated intentions.
How can I use these incidents to be a better partner?
I've been leaving it up to Nyx or whomever my partner is to tell me when they are so uncomfortable about a situation or to let me know when they "can't take it anymore" and want out of the relationship. Maybe I shoud start to take the initiative and say "I don't think we're compatible."
I want the freedom and trust of a partner to whom I can say something to the effect "I may flirt or otherwise interact with other women; I will let you know if any of these get to a point where I think there is a possiblity it could blossom into an actual romantic love interest." and have her trust me.
Or are you simply saying that it's impractical to enjoy a moment without thinking about all the implications, consequences and reprecussions for those actions?
No argument-I was typing fast! AND from memory. EEKS!
Ok. So I keep thinking-you two are on different pages.
You seem to be living by a completely different set of standards then she is.
Neither is "right".
Neither is "wrong".
But they are damn sure making it miserable for both of you.
IF you agree that it's an OPEN relationship (not necessarily true for all poly relationships) then no it's not unreasonable to expect that you are dating, meeting people etc.
IF you feel that kissing is NOT included in "sexual relations" per se but IS included in "dating, meeting people, getting numbers" that needs to FOR SURE be stated up front-but it's ok too.
In our case-that whole kissing thing-not cool. Maca considers kissing an exchange of emotion and caring-and that isn't something he's ok with being shared with ANYONE. I get that. So if I met a guy (or girl)-before it got to a kiss-yes I would feel the need to talk to Maca.
BUT if I have already said "I'm interested in this person and am considering pursuing something with them" in my eyes (I think I'll talk this one over with Maca tonight as I'm interested in his perspective) I HAVE talked with Maca.
So again-who knows what the deal is as far as what was right or wrong with the two of you.
Ultimately-you two need to COMMUNICATE-see my big long book of a post on the other thread. ;)
I think for now, we are friends and maybe using some advice of LR's we can improve our communication and see what happens?
Good to see you are still on the forums!
LR- you mentioned a "please understand me" thread or test or something on the other post but I did a search and don't know where to go.. may I have a link?
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