Open/Closed/Open/Closed

afar

New member
Ok, so I'm new here. Please forgive me if I use any jargon in the poly world incorrectly. About 2 months ago, after talking about poly for several months my husband found a woman that he was really into. Once he 'experemented' with her he decided that poly was indeed something we should do. I tried to get on board, I was the one who brought the idea to the table afterall, but I noticed his emotional withdrawal from our marriage and began to violently oppose this woman's presence in his life. We saw a marriage counselor and after several 'stop and go's' with the open marriage, have decided to close the marriage to try to repair it. He still sees her as a 'platonic' friend however and this really bothers me. There is so much instability in the marriage that we both recognize it is teetering on the verge of divorce. Both of us have expressed that we do not want a divorce, but I am still not getting that emotional connection with him and I feel like he is giving her what I need. This very much feels like an affair at this point, and I don't want to feel like it is. He has said several times that he is not having an affair, and I want so much to believe him and part of me does, but the fact of the matter is that things are so tense at home, I dread coming home at the end of the day. I want this woman out of my life. I feel like she is the wall that he stops at to unload all of his happiness and love and then comes home to me bitter and hostile. What can I do?
 
hello,

I feel your pain I really do.

but I am still not getting that emotional connection with him and I feel like he is giving her what I need

have you told him how you feel? Why is he still in NRE if he isn't dating her and they are just friends?

I want this woman out of my life

Do you want her out of your life or his life or both? Has she done anything to hurt you or is it how he has treated you via his relationship with her?
 
There is such a thing as an affair of the heart.

If this woman poses a threat to you in your perception and he is really serious about repairing the marriage, I would think it is important to him that you don't feel threatened. Is this friendship he has more important than his marriage? If he is unwilling to give it up, it says a lot about how he feels for her as well as you.

This is just an opinion, but I hope it helps. Good luck.

I am speaking from a very long difficult experience.
 
I...brought the idea [of poly] to the table....

...after talking about poly for several months my husband found a woman that he was really into.... ...he 'experemented' with her....

...I noticed his emotional withdrawal from our marriage and began to violently oppose this woman's presence in his life. ...I want this woman out of my life.... What can I do?

I've re-arranged the order to put it chronologically.

Ouch.

Having been in your shoes, as the wife who saw her husband giving attention to another woman (although we were not poly, he was simply cheating), I feel for you. I know very well how it feels.

As a 'secondary,' I also see clearly how it would feel to be told you were a fun 'experiment,' but we're through with you now.

You brought the idea to the table. You and he agreed to involving a third person, who now has feelings for him, no doubt, and she is being treated as disposable. A toy that you no longer like, so she needs to be returned to the store. Presumably without having any thoughts or feelings of her own about it.

Yeah, it's a mess all right. You can consider her feelings and try to adjust and grow to accommodate the person that you and your husband brought into this, whose feelings you involved. Or you can stand firm and tell him she needs to go. It may save the marriage. Or he may stay but resent you and end up divorcing. Or he may divorce right now.

Those look to me like the choices.
 
I want this woman out of my life. I feel like she is the wall that he stops at to unload all of his happiness and love and then comes home to me bitter and hostile.

The problem is with him, not her - would you eventually ask him to drop everyone else he knows from his life when he comes home and disrespects/mistreats/dismisses you? He has another relationship but it is on him to make sure that he still nurtures and cares for his relationship with you.

If this woman actually exits his life, will he still be a bastard to you? Probably. Your anger seems misplaced.

Sure, it was probably stupid idea to open up a relationship that was ailing to begin with and doesn't have a strong, loving foundation, but there's another human being with feelings involved now. She's not some random inanimate object you can kick to the curb. Work on you and him, not him and her.
 
I may be the only one who feels like this but oh well.

You wanted to try opening the marriage with no promises of loving it. Perfectly fine. Do not let anyone tell you differently. You put forth the effort and tried to be okay and go with it. You guys attended counselling and opted to close the marriage in the hopes of repairing it.

Here is my problem. Your husband may not be physically cheating, but emotional affairs do exist and can cause way more havoc than if he had just had meaningless sex with her. If your husband is serious and committed to working on the marriage, it requires his attention and effort. If he has still caught up in his feelings and if they are anything reminiscent of NRE, there is no way he is thinking clearly. Have you told your husband how you really feel? If she respects you and your marriage, she should also be willing to make concessions. I am never one to say how people feel in weeks or months time, but how deep are those feelings? I am not saying you have to give him an ultimatum but be honest and let him know that you think/feel that he is not giving it his all due to lingering feelings for her. Only if that is the case.

Why is he being bitter and hostile towards you? Did you do something to him? He needs to get his attitude in check and deal with his issues. He had to agree to close the marriage. Did you tie him down and force him to tell her that their relationship must come to an end? Obviously he has some internal stuff going on, but that should not stop him from being nice or cordial towards you. He reminds me of my four year old who pitches a fit when she cannot have her way.
 
I feel like she is the wall that he stops at to unload all of his happiness and love and then comes home to me bitter and hostile. What can I do?

I have a guess as to why you might find him bitter when he comes home.

He has feelings for this girl and doesn't have the courage to say what he feels or what he wants. Between you and the marriage counselor it is unlikely there were many options for him but to capitulate about "closing" the relationship. While you probably already know that he has romantic feelings for her, it's very likely that what he isn't telling you is that your disapproval is not reason enough to shut it down entirely. Further, it seems very likely that he resents you for it.

He digs her for all of the reasons he was into you when you two met. Only now, she's offering him his "freedom" and you are offering him the opportunity to "sacrifice". I'm sure, given the right circumstances, he is still very much into you but currently it sounds like there is a conflict of interests going on.

I'm not casting judgment on your situation, just giving another perspective on what might be going on.
 
Thank you all for your input. Here is some follow up information:
1.) Yes, he agreed to close the marriage because I said that was what I needed in order to heal the damage to the marriage. I am going through abandonment issues that stem from childhood that I thought I had dealt with years ago only to find out that I just disassociated them. Now they're back and on steroids. I feel emotionally abandoned by him because he is unable to support me emotionally right now. He feels like he's been toyed with by me because I said we should try this, and then I had to stop, and then in therapy we agreed to try again, and then stop. He is frustrated because of the 'yes,no,yes' dynamic. This I uderstand and respect, and am trying to get over my issues.
2.) No this other woman has not done anything disrespectful or hateful to me. As a matter of fact, she has been kind and sincere. I know she doesn't deserve to be thrown out like yesterday's trash, and I am making painful steps toward not seeing her as a threat to me.
3.) I do very much feel like their relationship is an emotional affair. I understand though that my actions and things that I have said to him have pushed him in that direction. I reacted in a childish way when he tried to open up to me about how excited he was to have this new friend in his life. I was jealous because I thought if he loved her, there would be less love for me. I know in my head this is not true, but that fear of abandonment is crippling me.
 
The good news is that you sought help before and you are doing it now. At the very least, he could support you. I do not think you are being childish. Opening a relationship is not an easy feat. Asking him to slow down to work on your marriage is a good idea. Do not let anyone tell you otherwise. You can acknowledge this person as a human being and respect her feelings, but respect is a two way street. Respecting your marriage is part of that. No one should dread coming home. Your husband needs to remember that long before these talks, he loved you. A little tenderness and support can go a long way.
 
Follow Up

Follow up:

Recently, there have been some new developments to my situation. When we agreed to close the marriage in counseling back in mid-March he said he needed a week to 'transition' his relationship with his outside partner to a platonic friendship. The marriage was open prior to closing it a grand total of 3 days. I immediately become suspicious for that fact. If there had been no sex, and he only had the freedom of a potential sexual relationship with her for 3 days, why did he need 7-9 days to 'learn how to connect to her in a platonic way' when prior to that 3 day period of open status that's all they were anyway? I thought it smelled fishy, but recognized that if I was going to say no to this ever happening I had to give in gracefully, so I did. The goal between the three of us from day one was that even if sexual relationships couldn't work, we would all 3 be friends. I had been working to that end with the other woman until a couple weeks ago. She opened up to me mistakenly and told me that their 'friendship' never became a platonic one, and that they had essentially been having an affair for the last month. When I confronted him about it in therapy, he denied it and said she was lying in order to drive a wedge between my husband and I because she was in love with him. I also found out that they had made plans to move in together. It took several hours of fighting, but he finally came clean and admitted that what she had told me was the truth. He also said that he was wrong and wished he could take it all back, but that he obviously couldn't. He has said that he does not want a divorce, and can emotionally commit to our marriage now and wants to continue working on it. I am not opposed to this, but I don't know how to ever trust him again. Open marriage was something I needed in order to explore my sexuality but because of how wrong this went, I know I will never attempt it with him again. The worst thing I discovered was that at the end of March, I had to leave town for the weekend. I didn't feel ready to leave home for an extended period of time, but he guilted me into going by accusing me of throwing my career down the drain. While I was gone, she came over and they were on my couch. I am sickened by the deception and manipulation the two of them played on me. I am even further angry because she came into my home while she knew I was gone, and knowing that I was not ok with them having a sexual relationship. Top that off with the fact that when I confronted the two of them with my suspicions prior to learning the truth, they both acted offended and told me how much my suspicion hurt their feelings since I had no evidence. They both let me apologize for something that was actually going on, and they both made me a fool. Now I feel worthless and humiliated and uncomfortable in my own home. My husband and I have not divorced or seaprated. We are trying to work things out. He has told her that they can no longer be friends because he realizes how badly they screwed this up. My problem at this point is how do I get over all of this? We are still seeing the marriage counselor, and I do want to save the marriage, but I wonder if I would be better off splitting up and remaining friends for the sake of our child? I am very angry and hurt by him, and a lot of the things he said to me during all of this and I don't know if I will ever get over his cruelty. Any advice?
 
I will print that link off and take it with me to our next therapy session. I am just so confused and hurt at this point I don't know how I feel. This has been an ordeal that I've been surviving since the beginning of February, and am very much exhausted emotionally at this point. I don't know how to 'rest' emotionally either so I can't really make a plan to move forward with whatever future is best for myself and my family.
 
You do know how you feel -- you feel confused.

You do not know how to behave next in this situation. And that is totally ok, and not an unreasonable place to be at right now under the circumstances. Go easy on yourself.

BREATHE. Literally -- if you feel a wave of "yargh!" coming on, stop and take some deep breaths. Most people hold their breath with tension. Feel whatever wave of ugh and let it blow on through as best you can. Holding it in just makes you more tense.

SELF CARE BASICS: Triage at this point. Take care of your basic maslow needs -- air, food, sleep. Skip the sex unless it is masturbation. Y'all will need STD testing. As you re-secure one level, you can begin to climb up to address issues on the next maslow tier. That could be one approach.

Ask your counselor about the stages of grief. It may still be TOO NEW for you -- and you are in "shock" stage. The "I can't believe this is happening to me!" place.

http://www.recover-from-grief.com/7-stages-of-grief.html

If you are a visual person, perhaps this also could help you navigate your emotions until you arrive at the crisis point where things shift... in the previous link that's the "stage 5 upward turn" place.

Could talk to your counselor about supporting you through this internal emotional work on the (me to myself) layer of relationship.

When you think about the layer of (me & DH) layer of the relationship... You may not want to polyship with spouse again, but reading through these pitfalls may help you understand how to cope with emotional management fallout:

http://www.practicalpolyamory.com/images/A._Wagner_-_Avoid_the_Pitfalls_of_Polyamory.pdf
http://www.kathylabriola.com/articles/are-you-in-poly-hell

And perhaps some of the page 5 & 6 things below could help in the healing/trust rebuilding. That doesn't mean you polyship at all, much less with the other woman... but it helps you work toward repair if that's what you and your husband want to do. Some practical triage "doables" while sifting through the fog as formulate the long term plan for your next future.

http://www.practicalpolyamory.com/images/Jealousy_Updated_10-6-10.pdf

Again, I am so sorry. Breaking trust this way -- it's terrible. :(

Hang in there!
GG

PS If it is looking like breaking up... and if it is not arranged that way already? Could secure your own finances with money in your OWN name in your OWN account. Know the laws in your area.

You are emotionally vulnerable and don't need NEW shenanigans making it worse. Old thread -- may or may not be helpful
 
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if you have to leave him,

be careful of trying to get back at him through any means of divorce or with custody battles and children. I know all to well how it feels to deceived, My first poly relationship I wasn't even aware of it.

It's hard to not be pissed off and hurt when you look back and realize all the shitty treatment and making you feel like an asshole was really them lashing out due to guilt. I am sorry you are experiencing this.

It took years to get over the anger and resentment, but it does happen, although I still don't contact one of the women who put me through that. Co-parenting after a divorce can happen and doesn't have to get ugly, but it was hard to always remember that, and I am so glad I never made it any worse than the divorce already was, but it does eventually get better, and you can still work it out with husbands however some people aren't capable of being 100% honest, but I know that is what would have made a difference in my relationships, even after the fact and all the hurt.

But they weren't willing to do so, and because of that, I am seriously glad that I didn't stay with them

hang in there
 
This happened with my ex husband. We were 20 and in no shape to get involved in poly. He met a girl, wouldnt stop seeing her and it bothered me he was actively dating her against my wishes when he'd treat me like crap and do with her the things he refused to do with me I finally had enough and left him. After being separated a few months he chose to brink things off with her to repair our marriage. It was a really hard, emotional time for all of us.
 
Opening a relationship is not an easy feat. Asking him to slow down to work on your marriage is a good idea

I think this might be the crux of the matter. Did you ask him to "slow down"? or was it more of a "chose between me and her" situation?

You say he is frustrated with the open/closed/open/closed dynamic. I get that, and can see why he might be bitter and feel like YOU don't respect his feelings and experiences. I also get that you need to slow down and heal and take care of your issues before your marriage collapses in front of you. Believe me, I do. And sometimes "closing" i's the only way to regain focus on your own relationship. But if he is really into her, and feels like you are making him lose something that's good for him, that could be worse for your relationship.

Maybe if you could agree to discuss the situation in a less Binary-ic way, things will get easier for you both? Have you tried talking about the "closing" of the marriage in less permanent terms? It doesn't have to be an "either or" situation. Could be seen as a continuum, where you NOW need him to slow down this other relationship, and maybe in a while they could have a relationship of some sort, sexual or otherwise.
 
Non-Binary

Yes, I did at first ask that they just slow down and he spend more time engaged with me so I didn't feel like he was just punching a clock with me so he could spend time with her. He got to the point where he wouldn't even kiss me in front of her for fear that she might be upset with him. The more I asked him to spend time with me, the less time he actually did. He forbid me from contacting him if I thought they might be together when he wasn't at home. For me, it became a 'me or her' ultimatum when I saw the texts on his phone from her talking about how in love they were. He told me they were just friends many times, and to 'get the hell over it'. I can sympathize to a certain extent, but there is no excuse for blatant deceit. Once I realized they were having an affair behind my back, I decided there was no way this woman could ever stay in my life. His behavior when he was at her house with our son has caused confusion and fear for our son as well. There is no room in my family for her anymore. I believe its one thing to not be able to stop a sexual or emotional affair, but to manipulate and lie to an injured party and make them feel like they're the problem is just cruel.
 
Something missing

Afar, I notice two things. First, you said the marriage wasn't that stable prior to trying the open/poly approach. I think most of the other posters will agree that open and poly are not good ways to save a marriage. These are very advanced forms of relationship and not a bandage.

The other thing I noticed was the absence of a relationship between you and the other woman. You have met and conversed, but it didn't sound too constructive. Perhaps if you had a friendship with her based on more than just a man in common. You two could and probably should have something between you (not suggesting romantic or sexual) that is just between you. Him knowing that will really change things among you all. He won't know everything you do and say and he will have to respect that.

But it's probably too late for any of that. We all are sympathetic. You get a big hug from the forum members.
 
His behavior when he was at her house with our son has caused confusion and fear for our son as well.

Was he juggling chainsaws?
 
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