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-   -   Disentanglement (http://www.polyamory.com/forum/showthread.php?t=145457)

dingedheart 06-29-2020 07:31 PM

Disentanglement
 
Several months back I participated in a thread in which the couple had opened up a couple yrs prior but the wife had more or less remained mono or hadn’t really clicked with anyone. And now ( around the time of the husband writing the thread) she went a little crazy and in her ideal world would like to spend 3-4 days a week with her new partner. in the thread the husband described this as going from 0 to 100 in a short span of time.


Follow this with another recent thread about the conundrum of an established poly couple where the husband sort of breaking established tradition and asking or expecting to be granted the entire weekend vs the usual solo overnight or date night.

Then over the weekend I was cleaning the garage ....well actually I was asked if I could help see if there were ladies golf clubs and a boys mountain bike or parts to put together a decent bike.

OK also how does this all tie together under the banner of disentanglement?

My daughter just graduated college and is going to be living With her Bf. He has always been an avid golfer since a young boy. My daughter has had golf lessens and played rounds of golf over the yrs but never into it. Same could be said for tennis and some other sports. See where I’m going here.

They live in an a large urban area and the bike he owned was stolen. Here’s a young couple inventing ways to spend time together by playing a round or taking a ride to a park or whatever.

The reason I have ladies golf clubs in the garage is my wife thought she wanted to play with me or us as a family. She might have also wanted to be with the corporate big dogs or pretend at charity golf outing but the fact remains her golf clubs her bicycle her skis, an extra kayak was purchased and invested in to further entangle her into something she had minimal interest.


So is the term disentanglement as it applies to this topic honest? Wouldn’t it be more accurate to say it’s conditioning the reduction in time and access.


Or is it for established couples the practical release from activities that you really didn’t want to do but agreed to out of the lack of something better to do.


As we all know time is a zero sum game and as we go off and do new and different activities with our new partners should we consider how entangling those activities are ??


Also could you take disentanglement too far? Has anyone ?? Has anyone did something symbolic or otherwise that might have actually hurt the relationship?
No one ever brings that up. Or possible regrets. Which brings me another thread I recently participated in where a women got her husband to open there relationship because of a sexual slide in frequency and gusto on his part and NOW he’s remade himself a bit and found a hot young thing for himself and she has some regrets.

I asked many specific questions to gain clarity on that thread but they all went unanswered so we don’t know if better disentangling would have helped or maybe too much disentangling occurred. Clearly several member thought that disentangling their finances was going to be the key. I really have doubts about that but I hope she keeps us updated.


This concept and practice wasn’t floated when I became a member here seeking advice and help but I wonder if it had would it be smart and easier to stipulate as part of the disentangling process that either person needs to bother with whatever was “ the usual” when it comes to wedding anniversaries because in actuality the old marriage is dead. As a process wouldn’t it be healthier acknowledge that and move forward instead of looking backwards??

I know for myself it would have been freeing in a way because more than once I had to scrabble having slipped on the date. I think my mom called once said congratulations and what were our plans or something and asked what....” oh fuck “ pull the team together and get something done by 6pm so I don’t have to listen to that the rest of my life. ��

For AG and some of the newbies out there does this have merit ?? I think it does. I think it’s a really good first step and it’s just a conversation unless of course you have an actually wedding anniversary along the same timeline.




http://www.polyamory.com/forum/showt...=Disentangling


http://www.polyamory.com/forum/showthread.php?t=144983

http://www.polyamory.com/forum/showthread.php?t=144863


PS. I did set them up with a set of golf clubs and a nice mountain bike ....and I got some of the garage cleaned out and organized. Win win win ....but maybe not down the road

kdt26417 06-29-2020 11:01 PM

Hi dinged,

I'm not sure I'm reading your new thread here exactly as you intended, but I will take a guess and you can correct me as appropriate. You seem to be suggesting that maybe disentanglement (in the original marriage) isn't always such a wonderful thing, as it adds to the death of the marriage and subtracts from the couple's opportunity to nurture the (now dead) marriage. And maybe you are saying that if the introduction of poly into a marriage, essentially kills that marriage, is there any point to then wearing the original wedding rings, or to celebrating the couple's observance of anniversaries? Maybe any link maintained between the husband and wife amounts to them kidding themselves. Am I on the right track? I'll even go a step further to add that maybe the death of a marriage should be acknowledged by getting a divorce. And you are looking for our response to that logic?

I am actually not completely behind the doctrine that poly ends a monogamous marriage. I don't necessarily think the old marriage dies, it lives on but under modified conditions. Obviously it is no longer monogamous, but the original couple's relationship still has unique value, or may still have unique value, not erased by (a) new relationship/s. In my V, I am the newcomer and my two companions are the original married couple. They still observe/celebrate their anniversaries (just celebrated their 25th), and I am okay with that. I would estimate that the wife now allocates to me some of her exclusive time and attention, probably some that was originally allocated to her husband. But they still spend time together away from me, and I believe that what they spend is enough to strengthen their marriage, in fact their marriage seems to be stronger than it was before I showed up. He accepts the poly setup, and gives generously of his time allotment, and that means a lot to her.

I won't necessarily go into further detail as I'm not sure I'm addressing this thread (and the other three threads) as you intended; I'll hold out for any questions you may have for me, and for any corrections you may have for what I am assuming about your intended message. Your response to my post here will probably have an effect on where I go in future posts. Let me know.

With regards,
Kevin T.

BrokenArrow 06-29-2020 11:22 PM

So I'm currently working through the process of disentanglement with my wife. It's a real slow process, especially considering there's nowhere for me to go or nothing for me to do on my "me days". I usually end up sitting in my car listening to music. Last time I went to a gym for some cardio and strength training. That's about the extent of what I have going on.

I think it's important for couples to explore activities they like to do together. Why would anyone want to spend too much time with someone when they can't agree on anything they like to do? I dare say relationships are built on common interests and the willingness to explore each other's interests.

Disentanglement seems to become necessary when you find yourself totally defined by your relationship. When you can't watch anything because your wife's not home and you are watching all the good shows together. Or, how all your friends are her friends. Every decision you make revolves around the couple and there's no room for outside life. Things like that. That's kind of where I found myself.

My wife and I have a few things we like to do together, but we have a ton of different interests. Then we have some things that are kind of in between. I love to draw and paint but it's more her thing because I lack the ambition to get drawn into a big project like that. She likes to play video games but she can only go so long because it strains her eyes too much or she loses interest.

I would say you could disentangle too far. I believe it's just called drifting apart, though if you're intentionally working at it, it's more of a pushing away than drifting apart. Thanks for bringing that up. That's something I'll have to be careful of. Yeah, I need my own identity but there are things about "us" that should be cherished.

As a family unit, disentangling our finances seems like a disastrous decision. When Spitfire and I got married and decide to make little babies, we committed to ensuring the success and welfare of the little monsters. My paycheck pays the bills and her paycheck affords some cushion for comfortable living.

kdt26417 06-29-2020 11:38 PM

There does seem to be a happy medium in there somewhere. Disentanglement is one thing, estrangement is another.

vinsanity0 06-30-2020 04:10 AM

Entanglement has nothing to do with finding activities you enjoy doing together. It's more about never finding activities you enjoy doing apart. Or even never being apart.

Disentanglement isn't about never doing anything together. The thread about the anniversary weekend has nothing to do with disentanglement. Neither does the other one.

I'm sure you are familiar with couples who do everything together. They never spend a night apart. They shop together. They eat dinner together every night. They never do anything apart except work. That may seem like a wonderful thing and some people consider it normal. It's not healthy though. And it's definitely a habit you want to change if you decide to do poly.

dingedheart 06-30-2020 09:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kdt26417 (Post 460484)
Hi dinged,

I'm not sure I'm reading your new thread here exactly as you intended, but I will take a guess and you can correct me as appropriate. You seem to be suggesting that maybe disentanglement (in the original marriage) isn't always such a wonderful thing, as it adds to the death of the marriage and subtracts from the couple's opportunity to nurture the (now dead) marriage.

Not necessarily. I was just throwing out open ended questions and ideas.


Quote:

And maybe you are saying that if the introduction of poly into a marriage, essentially kills that marriage, is there any point to then wearing the original wedding rings, or to celebrating the couple's observance of anniversaries? Maybe any link maintained between the husband and wife amounts to them kidding themselves. Am I on the right track?
Yes I think the original marriage and contract that was establish and or acted for a number of yrs is now null and void and once start Dow the new path itís essentially a new start point or a new anniversary date. And if you really want to disentangle to create space for new people maybe that is a logical first step.

Quote:

I'll even go a step further to add that maybe the death of a marriage should be acknowledged by getting a divorce. And you are looking for our response to that logic?
Weíve seen that step taken A few times ....it doesnít happen very often but it is a logic step for some.

Quote:

I am actually not completely behind the doctrine that poly ends a monogamous marriage. I don't necessarily think the old marriage dies, it lives on but under modified conditions. Obviously it is no longer monogamous, but the original couple's relationship still has unique value, or may still have unique value, not erased by (a) new relationship/s.
Sorry but by your own definition and sentence the mono marriage has ended.
In the that structure the general focus of romantic and social energy for lack of a better word is your spouse. In the poly structure the spouse is one of (x) .
And Iím sure it has some value or they wouldnít remain a couple however itís changed fundamentally from where it started. Divided resources. Finite resources such as time, attention, energy and money. Presumably that was focused all in one direction and now itís being distributed between ( ? ) a major shift. A shift large enough to say the old system and structure is dead. Elements still exist the people are still the same but the structure in which they operate is fundamentally changed.

Quote:

In my V, I am the newcomer and my two companions are the original married couple. They still observe/celebrate their anniversaries (just celebrated their 25th), and I am okay with that. I would estimate that the wife now allocates to me some of her exclusive time and attention, probably some that was originally allocated to her husband. But they still spend time together away from me, and I believe that what they spend is enough to strengthen their marriage, in fact their marriage seems to be stronger than it was before I showed up. He accepts the poly setup, and gives generously of his time allotment, and that means a lot to her.
Thanks for sharing your story. Where they open prior to you becoming involved ? How did they decide to open up there marriage ? Did they do any of the disentangling steps / or prep prior to opening ? And how did you all decide to live together and how long had you been dating at that point ?

Also you said they observed or celebrated the 25 wedding anniversary. Was this a big thing for them or was it exchanging cards and dinner at your favorite taco place. ?

Itís interesting that you said your ok with that.....and completely believe you are ok with that but I wonder subconsciously or maybe consciously if a mono spouse such as myself way back when wasnt trying to say hereís one thing you canít take away.??
With regards,
Kevin T.

dingedheart 06-30-2020 10:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BrokenArrow (Post 460485)
So I'm currently working through the process of disentanglement with my wife. It's a real slow process, especially considering there's nowhere for me to go or nothing for me to do on my "me days". I usually end up sitting in my car listening to music. Last time I went to a gym for some cardio and strength training. That's about the extent of what I have going on.

do you know how and when you got so entangled in your wifeís activities or life ?? Before poly did you or she think you were living in some sort of codependency marriage ??

Quote:

I think it's important for couples to explore activities they like to do together. Why would anyone want to spend too much time with someone when they can't agree on anything they like to do? I dare say relationships are built on common interests and the willingness to explore each other's interests.
But the line is a subjective one.

Quote:

Disentanglement seems to become necessary when you find yourself totally defined by your relationship. When you can't watch anything because your wife's not home and you are watching all the good shows together. Or, how all your friends are her friends. Every decision you make revolves around the couple and there's no room for outside life. Things like that. That's kind of where I found myself.
I think weíre talking about 2 separate things here that just happen to overlap. Itís probably a really good idea to have an identity outside your spouse. The idea behind disentangling is conditioning the loss being the sole focus of what most of consider our most valuable resources time, attention, energy. Itís conditioning you for the alone times /date nights ...sleepovers and weekend trips or vacations.


Quote:

My wife and I have a few things we like to do together, but we have a ton of different interests. Then we have some things that are kind of in between. I love to draw and paint but it's more her thing because I lack the ambition to get drawn into a big project like that. She likes to play video games but she can only go so long because it strains her eyes too much or she loses interest.
Why not do one of those different interests instead of sitting in you car listening to music ? Crack open the ton.



Quote:

I would say you could disentangle too far. I believe it's just called drifting apart, though if you're intentionally working at it, it's more of a pushing away than drifting apart. Thanks for bringing that up. That's something I'll have to be careful of. Yeah, I need my own identity but there are things about "us" that should be cherished.
Does your wife view this process as being pretty much all about you or has she grown into a groove too ? How is in terms of disentangling?? Easy hard .fast slow ?

Quote:

As a family unit, disentangling our finances seems like a disastrous decision. When Spitfire and I got married and decide to make little babies, we committed to ensuring the success and welfare of the little monsters. My paycheck pays the bills and her paycheck affords some cushion for comfortable living.

Have you decided or figured out how much money will be set aside for dating and outside interests?

dingedheart 06-30-2020 11:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by vinsanity0 (Post 460514)
Entanglement has nothing to do with finding activities you enjoy doing together.

Iím sorry list 40 activities couples ď find ď or invent to spend time with one another and Iíll show you entanglement. And Iím not saying entanglement is bad. Any dating or social commitment entangles a person. Itís just a fact.

Quote:

It's more about never finding activities you enjoy doing apart. Or even never being apart.
Entanglement is more about finding activities you enjoy apart ??? What ? Look up entanglement. Or never being apart ?
Iíll help you out itís ...the action or fact of being entangled. Internet is a cool thing.

Quote:

Disentanglement isn't about never doing anything together.
Thanks I got that. Never said that or suggested that. Sorry youíre not getting the idea here.


Quote:

The thread about the anniversary weekend has nothing to do with disentanglement. Neither does the other one.
Youíre right about the anniversary thread that nowhere in it anyone specifically draw reference to disentanglement. I myself thought about it in my own case in a retroactive sense days after posting the thread.

And as for the other thread your flat out wrong. Do a tag search on disentangling and that thread comes up. Someone in that thread suggested or talked about it.

And are you saying because you donít understand how a collection of different thread could be linked and or thought of under a specific banner /topic Iím wrong ?? I thought you were more open minded than that ?

Quote:

I'm sure you are familiar with couples who do everything together. They never spend a night apart. They shop together. They eat dinner together every night. They never do anything apart except work. That may seem like a wonderful thing and some people consider it normal. It's not healthy though. And it's definitely a habit you want to change if you decide to do poly.
Yes Iím familiar that those couples exist somewhere out there in nature. I searched my memory banks to find any of my friends or associates and came up with No one or no couple ....however a client I had might be on the clingy weird side. All my guy friends and neighbors have poker nights, basket ball leagues, golf leagues or golf in general, Gary my next door neighbor belongs to a bicycling club ...Steve is in a motor cycle club, etc etc they/ we all spend nights and weekends away.

I thought the standard advice for people opening up a long standing mono marriage was to disentangle. NOT just codependent couples trying to become poly.

I definitely agree not a good thing if you decide to do poly. Do you think smothering codependency could be a factor driving people to open or poly ?

YouAreHere 06-30-2020 12:35 PM

Sounds like maybe we're conflating codependency with entanglement a bit? Some level of entanglement is fine, I think. Trying an activity to do with a partner, getting to know their friends and family - that's all part of getting closer to someone.

But it needs to be in both directions, and once you start losing your sense of self and subsuming yourself to the relationship, I think that's where things start going wrong.

When I got divorced, I realized that I wasn't physically close (distance-wise) to many of my friends, and I ended up finding a board gaming group (another interest of mine that wasn't my ex-husband's) and meeting people there. That, plus spending more time with work friends helped me regain a sense of "me" back... in addition to smaller things, like playing music I liked in the car (because my ex would complain about how awful music was nowadays except for country music), cooking and organizing my kitchen the way I liked, etc. That type of entanglement is harmful when you bury yourself down to avoid conflict.

As for financial entanglement, I won't do it again. That was a PITA after the divorce. But I'm past the point in my life where it's useful. I'm not building a home or family with anyone.

vinsanity0 06-30-2020 03:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dingedheart (Post 460552)
Iím sorry list 40 activities couples ď find ď or invent to spend time with one another and Iíll show you entanglement. And Iím not saying entanglement is bad. Any dating or social commitment entangles a person. Itís just a fact.

But I thought we were talking about entanglement in a bad way. Couples having common interests isn't anything to worry about


Quote:

Entanglement is more about finding activities you enjoy apart ??? What ? Look up entanglement. Or never being apart ?
Iíll help you out itís ...the action or fact of being entangled. Internet is a cool thing.
Read it again. I said it's NOT about that. In other words, a couple is too entangled if they don't have any activities they do on their own.



Quote:

Youíre right about the anniversary thread that nowhere in it anyone specifically draw reference to disentanglement. I myself thought about it in my own case in a retroactive sense days after posting the thread.

And as for the other thread your flat out wrong. Do a tag search on disentangling and that thread comes up. Someone in that thread suggested or talked about it.
I view financial disentanglement as a separate thing from what you wrote about. It's certainly a problem, especially if one partner gave up a career to take care of the house.
Quote:

And are you saying because you donít understand how a collection of different thread could be linked and or thought of under a specific banner /topic Iím wrong ?? I thought you were more open minded than that ?
I don't see them as linked. You haven't changed my mind. That doesn't mean you are wrong. It means we disagree.


Quote:

Yes Iím familiar that those couples exist somewhere out there in nature. I searched my memory banks to find any of my friends or associates and came up with No one or no couple ....however a client I had might be on the clingy weird side. All my guy friends and neighbors have poker nights, basket ball leagues, golf leagues or golf in general, Gary my next door neighbor belongs to a bicycling club ...Steve is in a motor cycle club, etc etc they/ we all spend nights and weekends away.

I thought the standard advice for people opening up a long standing mono marriage was to disentangle. NOT just codependent couples trying to become poly.

I definitely agree not a good thing if you decide to do poly. Do you think smothering codependency could be a factor driving people to open or poly ?
That advice is usually for couples with some level of codependency. For instance, we get a lot of people who don't know what to do while their partner is out on a date. Lately we've had a couple people here who are using finances against their partner, or whose partner is using finances against them. But I've never seen anyone suggest that a couple cease some activity, like golfing, in order to have a better relationship. I mean, what's the point of having a relationship if you do nothing together?

You ask an interesting question. I would say yes, that is a possibility, especially if one partner is more clingy than the other. That might not drive them to poly, but could certainly drive them away.

I think the opposite could be true as well. Maybe couples who have nothing in common or are thoroughly independent might be more inclined to try some form of non-monogamy.


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