Why do things have to be so complex?

[NeonKaos]

Just about anything I have seen asked or can imagine being asked on this forum can be answered with, "Treat others the way you would want to be treated, and don't settle for anything less than that for yourself."

Why do folks seem to think we and our situations are so "unique" that this does not apply, or that there could possibly be any more to it?

[Ivy]

Maybe because even when that's practiced to the letter, there are incompatibilities, misunderstandings, and heartbreak. Sometimes there's just no solution, but that's a very difficult thing to admit.

And sometimes people just need sympathy and a kind word.

[redpepper]

I think that far too often people think they are unique and special. Why? Because we are taught that. Some cultures don't teach that. Some cultures teach their kids that the betterment of the whole community is what is unique and special, not individuals.

We are set up I think. As kids we are told that we are something special and then somewhere down the line we learn we are not. Its a lie and we lose our trust from that moment on.

Usually this happens in school, like when we are told to line up with all the others to go outside for recess or something. We are made into people that follow along; there is no uniqueness in that, so we clammer for it because we were told once that we are unique and still want to believe that.

We are all the same, we are emotional, all go through events similarly, we all need love, companionship, stable family lives; as much as we need food, water and shelter...

I sometimes think that if people started seeing things in terms of "we are all the same" then a lot of issues would not exist. There would be a lot more compassion for others, a lot more speaking from a heart connection rather than our minds and our ego. I think that there would be a lot more abundance in our lives than scarcity as we as a culture covet what we think is ours...

We are not special. What is special is our ability to give and love without coveting love for ourselves. To be compassionate even if it seems it is at our own cost, makes us ordinary... I don't think it ever is at our own cost. It works and can be practiced... It's what I do here.

[NeonKaos]

Pretty much.

Of course, I realize we are each unique to a certain extent, but there are certain things that we all go through, such as denial, which are not unique. I am quick to "out" perceived denial in others because it helps me examine myself for the same.

[AutumnalTone]

I suspect it's due to the single largest obstacle we encounter when attempting to build fulfilling relationships is ourselves. It is our struggle with ourselves that determines how well we are able to treat others well and assist them in building relationships that are fulfilling to everybody involved.

[nycindie]

I have been thinking about this thread in the last week or so. I read the posts here, and keep coming away with the sense that everyone is really over-complicating things. Well, not everyone, but lots of people get all twisted and confused about choices to make, how to say this or that, how to ask for what they need, how to handle old self-limiting beliefs, devising complex boundaries and negotiations down to the minutiae of their loved ones' interactions, and things like what does it all mean????

Poly is so simple -- love more than one. Why do we get so bent out of shape?

[Ilove2men]

Honestly we really are all unique. Things that are simple to one are scary and confusing to the other and vice versa. Our experiences shape us and as numerical combinations show us... We can go through similar things, yet throw in a different variable and the whole equation is morphed into something comepletely different. Point blank EVERYONE has hang ups. Hang ups it self is the common denominator. Combining hang ups between one person and another (and another and another) Things get complicated. To me complication is simple. No pun intended. Breaking through one's own self constraints is mind blowing and takes alot of balls. Getting over one's own views to see how another's views came to be is equally so. When people can see thiers and other's at the same time... That's when complications go smoother and people can find balance/simplicity amongst each other.

[NeonKaos]

Yes, yes, the sum of everyone's individual experiences is "unique" but PEOPLE are not unique. If everyone's so "unique" then why do they bother coming to this forum seeking like-minded people and asking "has anyone ever been through this before"? INVARIABLY there is ALWAYS someone who has been through SOMETHING similar, or we wouldn't have anything to talk about.

i challenge you to find me a thread or a question on this forum that NO ONE has had something similar or identical to it happen to them.

[Ilove2men]

I don't deny that people have been through similar and sometimes I identical situations. Situations don't make the outcome or experience. The individuals with their contraints make and experience what it is. So because of this the same situation can and does lead people to different emotions and outcomes. In effect to me this is another spectrum. Point A to point B and all the gray in between. I think people come on here asking that question to find similar experiences and how other's have dealt with it to compare and find their own place in that spectrum. I think it's natural to seek guidance from those with experience and when people form questions as " has anyone been through this before" the majority of the time its voicing a fear of "what if I'm the first. What if I have to go through this without guidance."

[nycindie]

What does what you're saying have to do with keeping things simple?

[Xared]

The simple answer? People are stupid. Without exception. And yes, I'm including myself in this. Everyone is stupid at one point or another. In my experience, the more intelligent someone is, the greater the stupidity that person is capable of.

People delude themselves into thinking they aren't stupid. One can strive to be less stupid, but breaking free from stupidity is impossible. It's a condition of being human.

[NeonKaos]

The simple answer? People are stupid. Without exception. And yes, I'm including myself in this. Everyone is stupid at one point or another. In my experience, the more intelligent someone is, the greater the stupidity that person is capable of.

People delude themselves into thinking they aren't stupid. One can strive to be less stupid, but breaking free from stupidity is impossible. It's a condition of being human.


Humans ARE very stupid. We keep making the same stupid mistakes over and over and expect OTHERS to change because of OUR mistakes. I make mistakes all the time, but I try to make NEW mistakes, not the same stupid fucking ones again and again.

[Ilove2men]

nycindie, I think that was directed towards me.

It has nothing to do with keeping this simple really. It's my opinion on where complexities come about. I'm not the best at explaining myself sometimes. I'm taking an economics course and to me I see the same laws apply to different people coming together to find a happiest balance for all. Economics teach that this balance is everchanging.

I'm not speaking specifically about people coming on here thinking they are the only one who has been through a specific something in the previous paragragh. My opions on that is 1) it's fearbased. When it's something bad that's happened to them they are afraid they are alone in the world. 2) If it's something bad they have done then they say no ones been through it as an excuse of " you can't possibly fault my bad behavior because you've never been in my shoes or felt how I feel." This is not complex this is typical out of some. (not all)

[Ariakas]

Because emotion immediately adds a layer of complexity.

Poly on paper is as easy as a regular relationship. Once you throw in emotional responses logic for most people gets tossed out the window.

This idea of everyones relationship being unique.. In the end that's peoples need to want to feel like they are part of a group, but being left to justify any failures to it's uniqueness. It's a simple copout. Its better than blaming a tough relationship on the people involved.

[Ariakas]

The simple answer? People are stupid. Without exception. And yes, I'm including myself in this. Everyone is stupid at one point or another. In my experience, the more intelligent someone is, the greater the stupidity that person is capable of.

People delude themselves into thinking they aren't stupid. One can strive to be less stupid, but breaking free from stupidity is impossible. It's a condition of being human.

Nah, I don't except that. Emotional response trumps logic and intelligence.

I am intelligent, it's just unfortunate my heart tends to beat my brain up. Haha

[AutumnalTone]

Poly on paper is as easy as a regular relationship. Once you throw in emotional responses logic for most people gets tossed out the window.


All relationships, on paper, look to be easy. There will always be some conflict due to being humans with different understandings of expectations, and so forth, even among folks who have well-developed relationship skillz.

It's the instances of gross dysfunction that always puzzle me. A question that pops into my head on reading some of the scenarios is "Have you had *any* functional relationships in your life?"


This idea of everyones relationship being unique.. In the end that's peoples need to want to feel like they are part of a group, but being left to justify any failures to it's uniqueness. It's a simple copout. Its better than blaming a tough relationship on the people involved.

Yup. It would be so much easier to have some reason other than a lack of compatibility (that could have been noticed much earlier) or having weak relationship skills. Saying "My Love Fu was not strong enough" is a humbling experience (he says from experience).

[Xared]

Nah, I don't except that. Emotional response trumps logic and intelligence.

I am intelligent, it's just unfortunate my heart tends to beat my brain up. Haha
I agree. However, emotions can be handled stupidly, or in ways that are less stupid. Doing whatever one's emotions demand without a second thought; pretty stupid. Trying to understand one's emotions and attempting to balance them with reason, less stupid.

[Ariakas]

All relationships, on paper, look to be easy. There will always be some conflict due to being humans with different understandings of expectations, and so forth, even among folks who have well-developed relationship skillz.


That's true.


It's the instances of gross dysfunction that always puzzle me. A question that pops into my head on reading some of the scenarios is "Have you had *any* functional relationships in your life?"

People who suck at relationships are still going to suck at poly ones. People sometimes expect poly to fix their poor relationship habits. Maybe some people event believe it is like the magic cure.

The "I have been a cheating lying serial monogamist, I must be poly" mentality usually just creates a "I am a lying cheat serial polyamorist" ... Unfortunately the root relationship problems are never fixed.

Disclaimer - that obviously doesn't apply to all cheaters.. I am just using an example

[Ariakas]

I agree. However, emotions can be handled stupidly, or in ways that are less stupid. Doing whatever one's emotions demand without a second thought; pretty stupid. Trying to understand one's emotions and attempting to balance them with reason, less stupid.

Easier said that done in some cases.

[Xared]

Easier said that done in some cases.

"Nothing in the world is worth having or worth doing unless it means effort, pain, difficulty... I have never in my life envied a human being who led an easy life. I have envied a great many people who led difficult lives and led them well." --Theodore Roosevelt

[Ariakas]

"Nothing in the world is worth having or worth doing unless it means effort, pain, difficulty... I have never in my life envied a human being who led an easy life. I have envied a great many people who led difficult lives and led them well." --Theodore Roosevelt

I wouldn't be in relationships if I didn't have an understanding of that statement personally and had to live it personally since I was a child.. I have enjoyed every brutal stage of my life as much as the brilliant ones.

[sage]

About the whole pain and difficulty thing. In the past I would have agreed with you, now I tend to think that if it's too hard it isn't meant to be. Everything that has ever been really painful and difficult for me was either wrong for me or I was making it harder than it had to be.

[NeonKaos]

About the whole pain and difficulty thing. In the past I would have agreed with you, now I tend to think that if it's too hard it isn't meant to be. Everything that has ever been really painful and difficult for me was either wrong for me or I was making it harder than it had to be.

"Doctor, it hurts when I do this."

"Then don't do "this"."

[River]

Poly is so simple -- love more than one. Why do we get so bent out of shape?

I think the primary cause of difficulty with love and relationships is insufficient self-love, which results in insufficient other-love, along with a great deal of fear of loss, frustration, hurt, anger, resentment, jealousy, etc.

It's obvious to me that the beginning of the chain is insufficient self-love. Most of us aren't much good at that. And that's where it all begins!

[Ariakas]

I think the primary cause of difficulty with love and relationships is insufficient self-love, which results in insufficient other-love, along with a great deal of fear of loss, frustration, hurt, anger, resentment, jealousy, etc.

It's obvious to me that the beginning of the chain is insufficient self-love. Most of us aren't much good at that. And that's where it all begins!

I am awesome at self loving :D... haha.. ok I couldn't resist sorry.. :eek:..

I would agree with your post for the record. :)

[MonoVCPHG]

now I tend to think that if it's too hard it isn't meant to be. .

I'm with you Sage. I even go farther I think. I don't believe life should be a struggle.

[Magdlyn]

I'm with you Sage. I even go farther I think. I don't believe life should be a struggle.

What the? Life is fraught with difficulty and pain and lost connections.

I guess I am with Hemingway here. "Life isn't about getting what you want. Life is about doing what needs to be done joyfully and gracefully."

Also, from a commercial, "Life is dirty. Clean it up."

[NeonKaos]

Captain Obvious told me to tell you's that the vast majority of life on THIS planet, both human and otherwise, have no choice as to whether or not life is a "struggle". In fact, I don't think the word "should" exists for most folks.

What planet do YOU live on?

Indeed, when I say things "should" be kept simple, at the beginning of this thread, what i meant was that there is ENOUGH struggle in life with things we don't really have a choice about, that it is silly to make it harder on ourselves by struggling with things we bring upon ourselves. We all have a CHOICE about whether or not to stay in bad relationships; why choose to?

It's funny, because on the secret FB group, someone just crawled up my butt with a "glass half empty" answer to something i said. as if pessimism is a NEGATIVE thing. I just love it when pathological optimists get irked by this sort of thing. it's so easy to do and so fun to watch.

[MonoVCPHG]

I keep things simple..keeps me young and pretty damn happy. Just my philosophy :D I've had my share of struggle; most of it could have been avoided and would not have been missed.

[Minxxa]

I think it depends on where you start, too. Some of us start with a lot of disadvantages in one way or another and it takes a bit o' work to get through them.

But in general, yes. Why make things harder than they are? We have to deal with the things that are out of our control, why beat ourselves over the head with the things that are?

[AutumnalTone]

It's funny, because on the secret FB group, someone just crawled up my butt with a "glass half empty" answer to something i said. as if pessimism is a NEGATIVE thing. I just love it when pathological optimists get irked by this sort of thing. it's so easy to do and so fun to watch.

That was only because you lowered your standards.

[River]

I am awesome at self loving :D... haha.. ok I couldn't resist sorry.. :eek:..


Heh! I laughed hard when I realized you were talking about something which may or may not involve lubricant.:p

[NeonKaos]

That was only because you lowered your standards.



I almost got into it over there but.. meh. I'm not trying to convert people to my way of thinking.

But FTR - my standards are higher across the board than ever, if i have them at all.

[sage]

Agreed a lot of the world do have serious, seemingly unavoidable struggles but in the developed, supposedly peaceful nations a lot of pain is brought about by resistance to what is. Going with the flow and gratitude can go a long way to alleviating struggle. Remember the the serenity prayer'... accept the things I cannot change, the courage to change the things I can and the wisdom to know the difference.'

[Xared]

There's a difference between "difficult and worth it" and "impossible." Relationship-wise, a lot of times... actually, I'd go so far as to say most of the time, people try to "make it work" when they're just not compatible. The belief that "love conquers all" and all that. The truth is, love isn't enough most of the time. While romance is a synonym for love, it is also a synonym for fiction.

[idealist]

I like this thread. A lot of people are saying a lot of valid things here!!!

I agree with Sage. My healthy relationships are not difficult. The painful and difficult relationships I’ve been in did not last. For me, a lot of emotional pain in a relationship tends to be an indicator that something is amiss.

And River, it seems to me that along with self-love it’s important to have a basic sense of self-awareness. A foundation of self-awareness seems to go a long way when it comes to relating to others.

Very well said Minxxa!! There are real difficulties that we must deal with in life. Life can be difficult and we can’t always avoid pain and suffering. However, there is a lot of pain and suffering that is unnecessary……that people bring on themselves. Not really sure why, unless it just becomes a habit.

Sage- I love the serenity prayer!! I agree that surrendering is the key for me. Letting go and going with the flow!!

Hahaha……yes Xared. “making it work no matter what” doesn’t work in the long run. “in the name of love” let’s beat ourselves up….for some reason which I don’t get......

The key for me is knowing when to push forward and when to let go. When it comes to relationships, pleasure and pain can be good indicators. If I am experiencing more pleasure in a relationship, then it’s working for me. If I am experiencing more pain, then it isn’t really working for me.

[River]

And River, it seems to me that along with self-love it’s important to have a basic sense of self-awareness. A foundation of self-awareness seems to go a long way when it comes to relating to others.

True, indeed. And it helps a lot of this self-awarenss is not imploded, stuffed all up inside itself and overly self-involved. It helps if the self is both open to the wider world and properly self-contained. Self love does make other love more possible, proportionately. The more genuine self-love we have the more we can happily share love with others. And genuine self love does allow the self to open and lighten so that it is not "imploded," as described above.

[nycindie]

I have been thinking of this thread lately because I'm beginning to reach my saturation point again with the same problems cropping up here all the time, the same questions, the amount of people who start off their posts saying their situation is unique yet we've seen their story here a gazillion times. I can't help it - I used to answer so many threads here, but lately I have no patience for most of them. I think I am becoming impatient in my own life, too. I don't like the way things are and need to make changes but feel frustrated at the enormity of the radical turn-around that is needed.

Just about anything I have seen asked or can imagine being asked on this forum can be answered with, "Treat others the way you would want to be treated, and don't settle for anything less than that for yourself."

Why do folks seem to think we and our situations are so "unique" that this does not apply, or that there could possibly be any more to it?

Treating ourselves and everyone around us with the same respect and loving kindness does seem to be the answer to most problems and issues. Now, how to implement that strategy...

[idealist]

How about this......Treat others the way they want to be treated and notice who is interested in understanding how you want to be treated and engaged in following through with it.

[redpepper]

I have been thinking of this thread lately because I'm beginning to reach my saturation point again with the same problems cropping up here all the time, the same questions, the amount of people who start off their posts saying their situation is unique yet we've seen their story here a gazillion times. I can't help it - I used to answer so many threads here, but lately I have no patience for most of them. I think I am becoming impatient in my own life, too. I don't like the way things are and need to make changes but feel frustrated at the enormity of the radical turn-around that is needed.I hear ya sister. I am losing my mind behind the scenes most days. Doesn't anyone read?! Look at other threads?!! At the very least stop and think that maybe they are not the only ones on the planet that have these issues??! AHHHHH! Drives me crazy. Still, we carry on right? Patience and persistence. We will change the world... :p;) one poly newbie at a time. :D

I need to think of a tags that encompasses every single thing that comes up so that I can direct people to the same threads as their own. That is a struggle.... I have been thinking on that for years now. :rolleyes:

You know what bugs me sometimes is I have seen what we repeat here over and over again in other peoples writings, on other groups and out of other peoples mouths and I remember the day when none of it existed. I can't tell you how many phrased I have seen come out of this site and become mainstream poly, yet I have never seen anyone refer to us in their writing or references. Some of them get money for the ads they post on their sites yet we don't get even a link! The amount of support and shared resources we produce for others for free, yet we don't get anything in return is mind boggling. Its very frustrating and makes me feel like this place is very under valued and under appreciated. Its hard to go on some days, yet I do and have done for years now... and likely will for more.

Again, I feel ya nycindie. I really do.

[NovemberRain]

I have been thinking of this thread lately because I'm beginning to reach my saturation point again with the same problems cropping up here all the time, the same questions, the amount of people who start off their posts saying their situation is unique yet we've seen their story here a gazillion times. I can't help it - I used to answer so many threads here, but lately I have no patience for most of them. I think I am becoming impatient in my own life, too. I don't like the way things are and need to make changes but feel frustrated at the enormity of the radical turn-around that is needed.

This is an eloquent description of how my life feels, too often of late. Not in relation to this forum, but just in general. I work with some of the most unthoughtful doofuses ever. Guy threatened escalation several levels above my boss, to get something fixed, wanting to know if we had a repair contract for it. You know what? HE was the contract manager on the damn thing! I've blamed my stupid cold for being unable to function at home this week; but I have an on-going frustration with feeling ineffective at the enormity of what is needed for my life to turn around.

Treating ourselves and everyone around us with the same respect and loving kindness does seem to be the answer to most problems and issues. Now, how to implement that strategy...

There's some of my problem. I think I do that, and mostly, all it gets me is taken advantage of. (which I know is poor English, I still blame the snot in my head) ;) I am respectful and kind and patient. Everyone at work tells me at least once a week how patient I am. I find out when I got back to work today that my staff spent much of last week bitching about me. (I don't take it personally, but it's ...disappointing)(before I was manager, I had a lot more faith)

Sorry, not being entirely helpful, this just rang a bazillion chords of sympathy in me.

[rory]

How about this......Treat others the way they want to be treated and notice who is interested in understanding how you want to be treated and engaged in following through with it.
Oh yes, and then communicate them what it is you'd like.

Be massively compassionate, understanding, and kind with yourself as well as others. Doesn't mean you accept things you shouldn't (far from it!), just that guilt and anger aren't constructive to change.

I actually think that the better my own boundaries, i.e. the better I know and implement what I need for myself, the more I can show understanding and kindness.

For example, it was a long time ago that I decided not to have my (social) mother in my life anymore. From that point started healing. Not complete, but I feel less hate and more compassion. I can understand how she has become the way she is, the pain she feels that drives her to be abusive. I can do that but I will never again subject myself to her abuse. There is a very hard and strict boundary.

I hope that illustrates what a world of difference there is between understanding something and accepting it in your life. I think where people get the most horribly difficult and painful relationships of their lives is when they try to do both feeding into a really unhealthy dynamic. I have had that as a kid, when I had no choice. Now I have a choice, and that is not how I will lead my life. I will do my best to always understand, but I will accept in my life only things I can live with, things that do not compromise my personal boundaries. Other things, things I want in relationships, those are up for negotiation. But my personal boundaries are not.

[NovemberRain]

How about this......Treat others the way they want to be treated and notice who is interested in understanding how you want to be treated and engaged in following through with it.

THAT is news I can use. Thank you. That noticing thing is a big challenge. I am friends with someone at work, mostly because she has made an effort to be friendly with me. She's not who I would choose, necessarily. She's brilliant, no question. But also broken, and demanding (work-wise) and whiny. She takes sarcasm too far, and is the first to act hurt when the rest of us toss it back. But she's made a consistent effort to go to coffee with me, ask how I'm feeling, thank me for my efforts on her behalf, etc. The people I'd like to play with don't notice. So I'm friends with her. But she is not popular, and I am now suspect for my friendship. oh, i work with nutballs.

Thank you idealist. :D

[NovemberRain]

I hear ya sister. I am losing my mind behind the scenes most days. Doesn't anyone read?! Look at other threads?!! At the very least stop and think that maybe they are not the only ones on the planet that have these issues??! AHHHHH! Drives me crazy. Still, we carry on right? Patience and persistence. We will change the world... :p;) one poly newbie at a time. :D

I need to think of a tags that encompasses every single thing that comes up so that I can direct people to the same threads as their own. That is a struggle.... I have been thinking on that for years now. :rolleyes:

You know what bugs me sometimes is I have seen what we repeat here over and over again in other peoples writings, on other groups and out of other peoples mouths and I remember the day when none of it existed. I can't tell you how many phrased I have seen come out of this site and become mainstream poly, yet I have never seen anyone refer to us in their writing or references. Some of them get money for the ads they post on their sites yet we don't get even a link! The amount of support and shared resources we produce for others for free, yet we don't get anything in return is mind boggling. Its very frustrating and makes me feel like this place is very under valued and under appreciated. Its hard to go on some days, yet I do and have done for years now... and likely will for more.

Again, I feel ya nycindie. I really do.

Gotta tell ya, redpepper, this actually made me feel better. :) When I got here, i really wanted to have a problem to post, to get help, ya-da-blah. But I just didn't. And what puny questions I had, I got answered by reading. :) I keep thinking, is it just this easy? I know, I haven't been in it long enough to really have something meaty to get help with. But considering my situation, it's appearing awfully easy for the moment. I feel extremely lucky. and helped by this forum. My boyfriends don't know it, but they're helped too! (because you all help me keep the crazy in check, so they don't have to feel it from me) :)

My guess is a lot of folks get helped by reading, but don't mention it.

Keep on!

[XtremeMix]

I don't know if I can make any contribution in this thread other than my usual rant about an "intolerant civilisation". So this is my POV.

The world that was built, that we built, was obviously not designed to be one where we humans could thrive in our emotional lives. Instead this worlds focus is aimed at competition.. greed.. power.. "production of stuff" (which might become kind of obsolete in a future!) and last but not least.. who was right in the end? Because that honestly seems to be SO important for a bunch of people.. obsessed with a hardcore belief that their way was the only way. It's really a near "sandbox mentality" or even worse when it is pushed down your throat and I for one is fed up with it. We know very well that there are a myriad of different ways to live this life according to what your preferences are.. but the obstacle many times seem to be.. this world.. which keeps us "stuck" in the same "patterns".

A very close relative said to me once that he envied another relative.. I asked him why. He said "he has always seen life in a more positive light than I have and not used the same serious mind I did". I then told him if I were to meet a person, anybody really, who's personal traits were favourable/logic I would ADAPT and actually apply/"borrow" those positive things (which I very often do actually!). He said to me "and that is sadly the capacity I lack in this life". And I found it very sad because his INTENTIONS were good but he somehow lacked the capacity to make it real. Many people go through this life and seriously need other peoples help and... POSITIVE influence. I can proudly say that I have influenced people to the better via the insights I gained through a lot of tough work with myself. And that insight was "free or charge".. despite some saying it to me sometimes that I could make some cash from it.. I am not very keen to step out as some "guru" on stuff, LOL.. and make people PAY for MY insights. It does not work like that in my life.. I am not that greedy.. if someone honestly and with genuine intentions asks me something which is of great value to me.. if that person is in need of hearing that.. that person will hear it. It is that simple.. because I love to give WHEN it is right and justified and needed.

So in conclusion.. the last years in my life I have actually seen signs in my own life that "building bridges" between different "aspects" of humanity.. might be a key to success for us all. To unite for a moment and share insights and then go separate ways and not fear to.. lol.. get a "knife in the back". Yea.. I am a really diplomatic person! :)

Dismantle complexity via enhancing it to absurdity so that it shows its true self (ie.. being pointless).. that is how I often accomplish to get back to a... simple life! Almost magic.. almost (as it is easier said than done)! LOL :)

Hope I made SOME sense! :eek: haha

[bassman]

because on the secret FB group,

??? I'm intrigued now, what is this please?

[freyamarie]

I have to open my big mouth and say I agree with November Rain. I never even bothered to type an intro but went to reading immediately. Following the experiences and questions of others has allowed me to learn so much and save myself from repeating the same mistakes.
I think it is often the nature of forums to see the same issues and questions come up repeatedly. Is it sometimes annoying?-Yes. I just figure it is the nature of the beast.
I just want to thank those of you who have stuck it out here and patiently answered, re-answered and educated others. This place has been such a huge blessing for me personally and has allowed me to learn and grow as a person and in my relationships and empathy with others.

[Katrpillar]

This is a great thread for me to say hello and THANK YOU ALL being here!!! This forum, and others like it, have literally helped me put the pieces of myself and my life back together- from broken. I've never posted but I read, read, and read. I follow many of these stories closely and gather what I can from the wisdom of multiple minds sharing from their experiences.

I have peace and abundance in my life right now. Many thanks for the journey that I've taken with your help (unbeknownst to you :).

Your generosity is appreciated!

Katrpillar

[redpepper]

Bassman, the group that Neon is talking about is one that I admin. Many of the regulars (and others) here are on it. Its a private group that anyone can ask me to join provided they are willing to give me their names.

I guess for me, having slept on it ;) AGAIN (this all cycles for me), I try and remember that while a lot of what I and others have said here is repeated and made legendary in some cases, I don't have my name attached to it, so it all can be discussed anywhere and is "for the people." I have had a chance to really push my theory on certain aspects of poly and relationship dynamics because of that. I have developed a formula for poly relationships in my head that I repeat constantly, get challenged on constantly and re-work constantly. That's a good thing!

I find that when people put stuff to written word, taken from others, stick it on a website and put ads on it and make themselves a guru out of their thoughts that they then become followed. People are always looking for someone to follow. The discussion ends and one persons word becomes "thee word." Personally I value discussion and morphing concepts. Its what I value. I need appreciation for participating in that (thanks for that) but do not want to be a leader of the people. We are all leaders and we all are followers. Perhaps that is a utopian view, I dunno.

Thanks to everyone that posts here! Especially those that repeat stuff over and over without knowing. How would we know how common issues are without the issues being reposted ad nauseum. ;) :D

[nycindie]

I guess the thing that bugs me is how often we complicate things because we're avoiding the real issues. Much easier to struggle and fret with how to say something or what choice to make, rather than to just fucking say it or choose what we want and deal with the consequences. Truth is, most anything can be handled well if we act with compassion and have strong self-esteem. And if those aren't there - well, then, that's the place to start. Develop ways to find and feel compassion for yourself and others, and cultivate your self-esteem. I do believe we don't have anything in our lives that we are not capable of handling. So why create so much bullshit to deal with instead of the real thing at hand?

All too often, I think, people take responsibility for how others will react and what they will do with the input/energies/communication we give them, rather than just taking responsibility for ourselves. So we start twisting ourselves emotionally or try to fit into some idea of who we think we should be, to try and get a "better" outcome than what we expect.

And I'm using the plural instead of just talking about myself because I feel like I see it everywhere I go.

Ugh. Exhausting.

[redpepper]

I guess the thing that bugs me is how often we complicate things because we're avoiding the real issues. Much easier to struggle and fret with how to say something or what choice to make, rather than to just fucking say it or choose what we want and deal with the consequences.I agree with your whole statement and wanted to add to this part that I find that most of the time people are lazy and don't bother dealing with things in the moment. Sure, I know that sometimes we don't know how we feel or what we should do, but I have found that most of the time its because people don't know themselves, aren't able to be empathetic and therefore have an personal agenda wrapped up in the whole thing... that leads to drama.

To me one of the suggestions I have to most people is to do some hard work on getting to know yourself; hence the term "I am my own primary" was born.

[idealist]

Nycindie, Redpepper and all.....when are we going to appear on a talk show to talk about Polyamory????? ;) I think I'm ready!!

[redpepper]

Nycindie, Redpepper and all.....when are we going to appear on a talk show to talk about Polyamory????? ;) I think I'm ready!!No doubt! I am so ready to break out into the real world with this stuff (on line is fine, but being live and visual would be awesome) ... I do as much as I can by organizing workshops and such. I get so passionate about this stuff. It doesn't feel like enough. I'm not very confident in person talking about all this. The workshops are helping me feel more confident... maybe one day :) I will count you in if it comes up idealist!

[nycindie]

Nycindie, Redpepper and all.....when are we going to appear on a talk show to talk about Polyamory????? ;) I think I'm ready!!

You know, I could produce one for public access and/or the web and have you all as guests!


[lightbulb moment]
http://www.cool-smileys.com/images/58.gif

[redpepper]

You know, I could produce one for public access and/or the web and have you all as guests!


[lightbulb moment]
http://www.cool-smileys.com/images/58.gifOh yes please! We talked about something like that before I think.

[Pretzels]

You know, I'm probably guilty of what you two are talking about. However, people don't reach enlightenment at the same time and definitely not by the same path. And answers that anyone had for anyone else have come from experiences, some of which cannot be directly injected into someone else's biography.

Also? Maybe I haven't looked around enough yet, but these "letter" situations are confusing. I think I'm just going to declare being in an umlaut relationship and let that be that. ;)

[nycindie]

Maybe I haven't looked around enough yet, but these "letter" situations are confusing. I think I'm just going to declare being in an umlaut relationship and let that be that. ;)

Hi, what do you mean? The Vees and Ns, triads and what-have-you? Have you looked at the Glossary? Might help you with all that: http://www.polyamory.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1720

[Pretzels]

Hi, what do you mean? The Vees and Ns, triads and what-have-you? Have you looked at the Glossary? Might help you with all that: http://www.polyamory.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1720

Yep, that's exactly what I was looking for. Thanks!

[tigrrrlily]

I'm not sure i followed the original point correctly. However it seems to me that problem number one is that my personal emotional responses are no less intense and possibly confusing just because everyone else in the world has been through the same thing. It's still my own personal response, even if there is not a single original thing about it. (Talking it through with others who've been through the same thing might help).

As for 'treat others the way you would like to be treated and don't settle for anything less' - again, perfect advice as long as you keep it abstract. Concretely, it assumes that you know what you want and that everyone wants the same things in the same way, or that we don't sometimes face very difficult choices where none of the options is really what we want but what we really want is not an option (for example - do i want to endure another 6 sexless months or will I take a chance on a short term opportunity with someone in a Don't Ask Don't Tell set up).

[nycindie]

As for 'treat others the way you would like to be treated and don't settle for anything less' - again, perfect advice as long as you keep it abstract. Concretely, it assumes that you know what you want and that everyone wants the same things in the same way...

No, that is not what "treat others the way you want to be treated" (the golden rule) is about. It doesn't even remotely mean that everyone wants the same things nor that you should automatically know what everyone wants. Living life by the "golden rule" is a general guideline and a way to simplify things and not muck everything up with complicated questions, I think.

We've discussed this in another thread:

No of course it doesn't mean treating everyone exactly the same. I don't want to be treated the same BY everyone, so why would i treat everyone else exactly the same. You treat them the way you'd want to be treated in the relationship you have with that individual.

I think my IQ just dropped ten points while writing this.

...it means, if I want to feel respected and heard, and for my wishes to be considered, I respect and listen to others and consider their wishes. It doesn't mean I treat everyone the same because everyone is different but if I tune into them and listen to them, treating them the way I want to be treated, then I relate accordingly.

It is adjustable to the people I'm relating to. It doesn't necessarily have to do with specific tasks... I would consider their wishes just as I would want my wishes considered... I would communicate honestly with that person, just as I would want honest communication. THAT is treating someone the way I want to be treated.

Act in good faith, with good intentions, honesty, respect and love, in order to receive same back.

Here is a nice little description of how the The Golden Rule works in life, written by a Humanist and relating it to empathy:

"Sometimes people argue that the Golden Rule is imperfect because it makes the assumption that everyone has the same tastes and opinions and wants to be treated the same in every situation. But the Golden Rule is a general moral principle, not a hard and fast rule to be applied to every detail of life. Treating other people as we would wish to be treated ourselves does not mean making the assumption that others feel exactly as we do about everything. The treatment we all want is recognition that we are individuals, each with our own opinions and feelings and for these opinions and feelings to be afforded respect and consideration. The Golden Rule is not an injunction to impose one’s will on someone else!

Trying to live according to the Golden Rule means trying to empathise with other people, including those who may be very different from us. Empathy is at the root of kindness, compassion, understanding and respect – qualities that we all appreciate being shown, whoever we are, whatever we think and wherever we come from. And although it isn’t possible to know what it really feels like to be a different person or live in different circumstances and have different life experiences, it isn’t difficult for most of us to imagine what would cause us suffering and to try to avoid causing suffering to others. For this reason many people find the Golden Rule’s corollary – “do not treat people in a way you would not wish to be treated yourself” – more pragmatic.

The above is from http://www.thinkhumanism.com/the-golden-rule.html

[tigrrrlily]

"Trying to live according to the Golden Rule means trying to empathise with other people, including those who may be very different from us. Empathy is at the root of kindness, compassion, understanding and respect..."

Yeah fair enough, as a very good guide for ethical and compassionate interactions, but if this is the key to making things *uncomplicated*, doesn't it assume a) that we know exactly what we want and how we tick AND can communicate it clearly and that b) the things we want are never contradictory?

Similarly better self-knowledge, speaking up in the moment, saying exactly what we want - all of these are good practice for honest communication but not neccessarily uncomplicated.

[AutumnalTone]

I have been thinking of this thread lately because I'm beginning to reach my saturation point again with the same problems cropping up here all the time, the same questions, the amount of people who start off their posts saying their situation is unique yet we've seen their story here a gazillion times. I can't help it - I used to answer so many threads here, but lately I have no patience for most of them.


I don't lose patience so much as I just get worn out. Each tale of woe brings a bit of sadness with it and I can only absorb so much sadness before I feel overwhelmed. Between the empathetic pain, looking for wayward spam, and skimming for tone and snark, I find myself responding much less than I want.