SlutWalk

[Isaac]

Anybody following the SlutWalk discourse(/controversy)? Thoughts?

[Eloise]

Awesome. The statement of that officer that women wouldn't be assaulted if they didn't dress like sluts is a terrible stereotype and it puts the onus on the woman for the other person's reactions.
I think to myself "how terrible is that? That a police officer would say outright other people can't or won't help their reactions or actions because someone has a sexy top on? Are you kidding me?"

[Ivy]

The reaction at my university is revealing.

On the one hand, a very large segment of the student body (mostly grad students) see it as a means of speaking out against patently unjust blame-the-victim mentality. It's an exercise in empowerment, and an expression of dissatisfaction with the attitudes held by many (though clearly not all) law enforcement and judicial authorities. No one asks to get raped.

On the other hand, a smaller segment, mostly younger undergrads, is seeing it as an exercise in blind sexual promiscuity. I think this, if anywhere, is where the movement's gone wrong: the title "SlutWalk," at least at my alma mater, has been taken, by some, as a license to engage in drunken, irresponsible, destructive sexual behavior--the kind that spreads disease and encourages college girls to gauge their self-worth based on the number of frat boys they sleep with compared with other women. That interpretation is an exercise in disempowerment, in women being redefined solely by their physical value to men. It's also dangerous as hell, on so many levels.

But then, there are people who will misconstrue any movement, regardless of the title. But the title "SlutWalk" is really begging for abuse.

[MonoVCPHG]

That a police officer would say outright other people can't or won't help their reactions or actions because someone has a sexy top on? Are you kidding me?"

This is a hot issue for sure! We just recently had this talk again.

My perspective is pretty black and white especially in the issue of people being told they are making themselves a target.

Here is my thinking on this as unpopular as it is;

The people who perpetrate crimes against people are not normal, healthy or bound by social laws and respect for the rights of others. Therefore, if a known perpetrator targets a certain look or style of dress and that is clearly their MO, then it is the responsibility of police or any other knowledgeable source to inform people of that. It then becomes the individuals choice as to how to apply that information. If they choose to ignore the warning within the message delivered by police or a knowledgeable source, then they are assuming a greater risk then a person who choses to modify patterns or behavior that could potentially make them a target.

I don't like helmets but I know that it is safer to wear one. If the law did not make me wear one I would assume responsibility for my choice not to wear one fully knowing the risk involved. I can't hold the concrete responsible for smashing my head because it simply doesn't play by my rules. People who commit crimes are like concrete...hard and uncaring for the rights of their victims.

I'm not saying anyone should be able to tell a person how to dress. What I am saying is that people should be smart enough to make decisions based on the reality around them. The way a person dresses does not make a person a rapist...but if a person is triggered to rape by a specific stimulus I think it behooves us to avoid that stimulus.

[Isaac]

I'm not saying anyone should be able to tell a person how to dress. What I am saying is that people should be smart enough to make decisions based on the reality around them. The way a person dresses does not make a person a rapist...but if a person is triggered to rape by a specific stimulus I think it behooves us to avoid that stimulus.

Although it's too late, and I'm too drunk to respond to this whole thread in the length it deserves (maybe I will tomorrow), you miss a crucial and all too frequently missed point. The "us" you are speaking of doesn't actually include you and I. The "us" is women. That is what makes your line of argument support an inherently unjust system, the system we currently have in place. The "people" who should be able to make decisions based on the "reality" around them are women. We don't have to worry about this in this case. That is the difference between helmets and short skirts (although there are many others as well). Sexual assault and victim blaming are (almost completely) a gendered issue. The "reality" is that men (NOT all men, and NOT even most men.. but the huge majority of rapists are men) rape women (NOT only women, but mostly), and that rather than examining the culture that supports/condones this, and rather than telling men to stop raping women, we tell women to "make decisions based on the reality around them," to understand that it's not safe for them in certain situations and that they should 'protect' themselves. Personally, I don't enjoy living in a world where I can dress however I want, drink whatever and however much I want, walk wherever I want when I want, and talk to whomever I want whenever I want without the fear that I may be raped while women cannot. This, to me, is unjust, and telling women that "it behooves" them to "avoid the stimulus" perpetuates this injustice. (Statistics show that what a women wears, her age, her body type, etc, bares no relevance to whether or not she will be raped. There is no identifiable "stimulus" for them to avoid, besides being born a woman in a world where men are taught that they are entitled to the bodies of women.)

I hope this doesn't come across as a personal attack. I don't know you at all, and I don't want this to be a comment on your character in the least (simply for being on this board I imagine that you are mightily more respectable than many of the men I meet). I believe that men, all men, have a duty to really question our role in issues around sexualized violence, and to speak up whenever we see/hear things that contribute to a culture that condones this violence, and that blames women for bringing it on themselves. This is why I went on this drunken rant.

Love.

[nycindie]

Isaac, your drunken rants are so much more coherent and sensible than mine! Carry on!

[Erin]

The "us" is women. That is what makes your line of argument support an inherently unjust system. The "reality" is that men (NOT all men, and NOT even most men.. but the huge majority of rapists are men) rape women (NOT only women, but mostly), and that rather than examining the culture that supports/condones this, and rather than telling men to stop raping women, we tell women to "make decisions based on the reality around them," to understand that it's not safe for them in certain situations and that they should 'protect' themselves. This, to me, is unjust, and telling women that "it behooves" them to "avoid the stimulus" perpetuates this injustice. (Statistics show that what a women wears, her age, her body type, etc, bares no relevance to whether or not she will be raped. There is no identifiable "stimulus" for them to avoid, besides being born a woman in a world where men are taught that they are entitled to the bodies of women.)

You brought up a great point - women will be assulted or raped regardless of what they wear or do. Women don't walk around asking to get assulted or raped - it comes to them in the strangest of locations - and without warning.

This may be hard to read, but I was molested twice as a child by two different male family members on two separate occasions in my life. We went to court for one of them. Both are dead now, and someday I'll take the journey to GA and AZ to 'piss' on their graves. Forever mark them as pedophyles for all to see. Then as a teenager after telling my teenage boyfriend to stop, he continued on for quite a long time until he was satisfied. This I consider non-consentual, too, because I feared he'd beat me if I pushed him off.

My point is that I don't think it matters what girls or women wear or do - if the man wants to push himself onto her, he will.

It is society who needs to focus on training the boys in school to become respectful men in society. And speaking first hand, I don't see that happening in schools in the near future at all. Adminstrators avoid it like the plague. They don't address the issues until after it has happened. Therefore, the responsibility is left to the parent(s), but unfortunately the parent(s) who aren't teaching their sons to respect women are the ones who weren't trained by their parents... and thus the nasty cycle continues...

The man might spend some time in jail, lose his job, his family, or face public embarassment, but it is the females who pay the lifelong price... depression, self-doubt, lack of self-worth, confusion, shyness, meeting the wrong partners, and participating in potentially unsafe lifestyles...

Only a strong, consistent support team with some sort of therapy provides immediate relief for the female - but it can never truly be erased from her mind - the man/men already did the damage...

[MonoVCPHG]

(Statistics show that what a women wears, her age, her body type, etc, bares no relevance to whether or not she will be raped. There is no identifiable "stimulus" for them to avoid, besides being born a woman in a world where men are taught that they are entitled to the bodies of women.)



Love.

RP , Derby and I talked about this just after I posted and I agree. When I look at this topic I do usually create a very specific rapist as an example..one that preys on a certain look and may not reflect statistical evidence. If the statistical information supports the idea that how women dress is not a stimulus then that should be just as wide spread as any other information. I don't see any personal attack at all :)


I think we do need to teach boys and young men to treat women with respect..and shit like popular music videos and a lot of objectifying porn are not helping the matter. I also think girls should be taught to be smart about understanding that not all boys/men are taught effectively. I think girls and young women do need to take some responsibility for ignoring this fact. I'll put it out there..dress like a slut, expect to be treated like a slut. That's the current reality...there are bad boys/men out there.

[GroundedSpirit]

I can see valid points on both sides of what seems to be a 'debate' - which really isn't. Or shouldn't be.

A little common sense goes a long way in discussions like this and it's usually the first to get lost.

I agree that the manner of dress has only minimal impact on rape statistics. But oddly enough, the effect it can have doesn't end up necessarily being reflected directly on the wearer. The actual victim will likely be someone where the situation will afford the right opportunity. You can safely walk through the center of the mall with your ass hanging out and until/unless you step out the back door it won't matter. But some other poor, conservatively dressed gal that does step out back is just as likely to end up the victim.
All you can say is that you ( the sexy dressed person) potentially play some small role in that happening. It is what it is. You are neither solely responsible or completely innocent by adding to the tension that eventually "tips" that unbalanced person over.
The world is full of stimuli for that type of person. Eventually the tipping point will be reached.

Following, as Mon was attempting to point out, you can't toss a red marble in the center of a group of white ones and not expect it to get noticed. And 'noticed' with a potential rapist in the crowd is NOT what you want. So a little common sense can go a long way in protecting yourself. Do we LIKE it - to have to bend our personal preferences to the reality of the environment? Of course we don't ! But we have to also accept some personal responsibility for choices we make. If we want to walk the edge we have to acknowledge the risks.

I would be the last to look down on any gal because of her choice of clothing. But I DO question the logic behind it (as to appropriateness of environment). It IS a form of communication. What we wear IS a statement.
What statement are you trying to make - and why are you making it - here and now? It's back to the responsibility issue.
We DO have to take responsibility for the statements we make. It's just the nature of things.

GS

[redpepper]

What was wrong with "take back the night?" Here we had it at a time of year where we had to wear coats, hats, gloves in order to stay warm! We would walk along and chant "women unite, take back the night." It worked for us, it made sense.

I don't get the "slutwalk" thing. It seems to be an excuse to walk around dressed like a slut, the message is lost on me. Women dress how they want and as a result attract what they want from that.... rape is about control, not how one dresses I think.

[stille]

hi all,

its called slutwalk because (quote from their website, http://www.slutwalktoronto.com/):

On January 24th, 2011, a representative of the Toronto Police gave shocking insight into the Force’s view of sexual assault by stating: “women should avoid dressing like sluts in order not to be victimized”.

We are tired of being oppressed by slut-shaming; of being judged by our sexuality and feeling unsafe as a result. Being in charge of our sexual lives should not mean that we are opening ourselves to an expectation of violence, regardless if we participate in sex for pleasure or work. No one should equate enjoying sex with attracting sexual assault. "


I think thats quiet a good thing to ask for.

[opalescent]

I also think girls should be taught to be smart about understanding that not all boys/men are taught effectively. I think girls and young women do need to take some responsibility for ignoring this fact. I'll put it out there..dress like a slut, expect to be treated like a slut. That's the current reality...there are bad boys/men out there.

I don't know the specifics of the rape that resulted in the slutwalk movement. It may have been a stranger rape. But most rapists know their victims. A women's rapist is often someone they know, sometimes well, sometimes someone they love. A friend, boyfriend, acquaintance, co-worker.

I've bolded the sentence above because this reads to me like sluts are to be raped. If one acts like a slut, then one is available to be raped. I've been reading this board for a while and given your other postings, I seriously doubt this is what you meant.

The brutal truth is that women can't stop rape. It doesn't matter what women wear, where we live, etc. Women can and do take precautions and while that helps on an individual level, it's still a crap shoot. One can do everything 'right' and get raped or take insane risks and come through unhurt.

Most men don't rape but I bet those good guys know someone who has. I do not statistics to back this up. But have you (not you specifically Mono but all the guys on the board) heard someone talking about a sexual encounter and wondered, was that really what happened? Thought it sounded a little off?

Until other men make men feel shame for rape, then rape will continue at the epidemic level it is now.

[MonoVCPHG]

I definitely did not mean to imply that women who dress like "sluts" are to be raped. I do believe that they can be expected to be judged and viewed a certain way...the judgement will most likey from other women.
I've seen a lot of stuff in a lot of places and I admit that I've looked at some situations that skirted sexual assault and thought "she was asking for it". Women and men both need to assume responsibility for stetting the stage for problems in some cases.

[Ivy]

Women and men both need to assume responsibility for stetting the stage for problems in some cases.

Please don't flame me for this analogy.

I'm having a barbecue. I invite over 25 friends, we head out to the apartment pool, have a few drinks. I leave the door unlocked so my guests can get inside to pee and whatnot. Occasionally, one of them will leave the door ajar.

This is not an invitation to come in and steal my computer. In fact, under American law, it's still breaking and entering, whether you pushed the door open or broke the window. You're still a thief, either way. I invited my friends into my house, left it unlocked for them--this in no way constitutes "permission" to steal my stuff.

Now, on the other hand, if I want to absolutely avoid having my computer stolen (let's pretend I have a semester's worth of notes on it, and no backup or something), I should probably lock my door and ask my friends to keep it locked.

This does NOT change the fact that anyone who steals my computer is a dirty rotten thief who's entirely to blame for my lack of computer, and, indirectly, for my failed classes!

Now, this begs questions about the commodification of sex, sex workers' rights, etc., but I'll stop now. :)

[MonoVCPHG]

Now, on the other hand, if I want to absolutely avoid having my computer stolen (let's pretend I have a semester's worth of notes on it, and no backup or something), I should probably lock my door and ask my friends to keep it locked.

:)

I think this is a great analogy actually. The problem is; how cautious do we become at the expense of freedom? And yes...their are terrible people out there who don't give two cents about your rights as a human and would just as soon hurt you as they would tie their shoes. Not just men, but women too. That is reality. I can chose to ignore that or chose to balance my actions based on that. Men get assaulted as well, we all have to be cautious at times. There are lots of ego driven guys who are just looking for a reason to kick the shit out of someone...again it becomes a matter of knowing what can trigger some one to target us and avoid it.

Total-Awareness-Womans-Safety-Book (http://www.amazon.com/Total-Awareness-Womans-Safety-Book/dp/1550390988)


This is a great book that deals with safety for women. I trained with the author for four years and him and his wife are committed to educating women about how to not become victims or targets. I'm just adding this in case anyone is interested..it's not a plug.

[Ivy]

Self defense classes are always wise, regardless of your gender or clothing choices. If you're gonna dress like a slut, you should probably know how to stab a man's eyes out with those stilleto heels.

[redpepper]

I heard the whole police officer comment before, and think it could be heard two ways. The police are theoretically there to defend us, keep us safe, inform us. So when we hear information from them it could be seen as for our own interest and protection. The voice of authority on what the news on the street is.

The thing is that some people have not been treated well (or have heard others who have been treated well) by the police and have no confidence in the information passed on. They will see information as negative and to be untrusted no matter what the intention is coming from the police. That is real and valid for them.

So what to do? I think that it is important to pass on messages to the public in different ways and with a certain attitude. Saying, "if you dress like that, you are going to get raped you stupid slut," is different than giving information like "hey, there is a rapist around right now that targets women dressed _this_ way," or "it is thought by some men that women who dress _this_ way are sexually available regardless of verbal consent." All in the delivery of the message no?

It was unfortunate that the officer in question became emotional about the situation and was frustrated that some women don't seem to get it. There are some people that would love to tie it all up in a nice little bow just how they would like in order to make the world *perfect.* That is a human trait no? I think the officer in question needs some stress leave and a course in approaching the public or something. I don't everything about it perhaps there is more to it... but from my outside perspective this is my thought at the moment.

If nothing else the whole thing has caused people to talk, talk is good, debate is good, questioning is good; even titties on the streets of Toronto is good... I'm sure a lot of men/people enjoyed the display and all "walks" that occured after, but not necessarily because of the confusing message it sent, but because there were titties on the street! :D:p;)

[nycindie]

This whole issue is about much more far-reaching than how slutty a woman dresses. Rape is usually never about sex, or sexual gratification of the rapist. Though it may be fueled by sex, rape is always about power, dominance, and control.

As long as society continues to devalue women's contributions, autonomy, and sexual freedom, while it continually encourages men to feel entitled to be in positions of power, certain men will try to knock down women and put them "in their place." Rape.

As long as a woman is looked at askance for expressing her truth, such as wanting to be sexual, or perhaps not wanting children; as long as she does not have control over her body; cannot choose abortion or birth control without someone saying she is doing something wrong or immoral; or as long as a woman is prevented from moving up in the workplace and when she does still makes less than what a man would make in the same position; as long as the churches still promote the Madonna/whore image of women; as long as we still have fucking beauty pageants; as long as women are objectified; as long as girls and women are taught to be catty and compete with each other for the affections of males; as long as mothers are considered non-sexual beings; as long as menopausal women are told their sex drive is dried up; as long as people still believe there is such a thing as frigidity; as long as the media sexualizes little girls; as long as advertisers use sex to sell products; as long as sex is not spoken about in "proper" social situations; as long as children are kept in the dark about what sex and sexuality is; as long as women are taught to think they are freaks for wanting sex; for wanting independence; for wanting to be in powerful positions; for wanting the same rights, autonomy, consideration, salaries, and sexual expression as men; as long as men and boys continue to see women and girls as in second place behind them; as long as prostitution is illegal and considered a criminal act; as long as society still feels shame over bodily functions and sex; then things like rape and sex trafficking will continue to take place.

It has nothing to do with wearing heels, a short skirt, and a low-fucking-cut top!

The way to stop rape is not to teach women self-defense (I don't mean they shouldn't learn it, but that this is backward thinking); the way to stop rape is to teach our boys and men, and society as a whole (because there are plenty of women who need to learn it too) to fucking cherish and respect women for all of who they are: vibrant, sexual, sensual, intelligent, capable beings who are equal to men and have a right to wear whatever the fuck they want and walk down whatever the fuck street they want at whatever time they fucking want without being in danger.

[Isaac]

This whole issue is about much more far-reaching than how slutty a woman dresses. Rape is usually never about sex, or sexual gratification of the rapist. Though it may be fueled by sex, rape is always about power, dominance, and control.

As long as society continues to devalue women's contributions, autonomy, and sexual freedom, while it continually encourages men to feel entitled to be in positions of power, certain men will try to knock down women and put them "in their place." Rape.

As long as a woman is looked at askance for expressing her truth, such as wanting to be sexual, or perhaps not wanting children; as long as she does not have control over her body; cannot choose abortion or birth control without someone saying she is doing something wrong or immoral; or as long as a woman is prevented from moving up in the workplace and when she does still makes less than what a man would make in the same position; as long as the churches still promote the Madonna/whore image of women; as long as we still have fucking beauty pageants; as long as women are objectified; as long as girls and women are taught to be catty and compete with each other for the affections of males; as long as mothers are considered non-sexual beings; as long as menopausal women are told their sex drive is dried up; as long as people still believe there is such a thing as frigidity; as long as the media sexualizes little girls; as long as advertisers use sex to sell products; as long as sex is not spoken about in "proper" social situations; as long as children are kept in the dark about what sex and sexuality is; as long as women are taught to think they are freaks for wanting sex; for wanting independence; for wanting to be in powerful positions; for wanting the same rights, autonomy, consideration, salaries, and sexual expression as men; as long as men and boys continue to see women and girls as in second place behind them; as long as prostitution is illegal and considered a criminal act; as long as society still feels shame over bodily functions and sex; then things like rape and sex trafficking will continue to take place.

It has nothing to do with wearing heels, a short skirt, and a low-fucking-cut top!

The way to stop rape is not to teach women self-defense (I don't mean they shouldn't learn it, but that this is backward thinking); the way to stop rape is to teach our boys and men, and society as a whole (because there are plenty of women who need to learn it too) to fucking cherish and respect women for all of who they are: vibrant, sexual, sensual, intelligent, capable beings who are equal to men and have a right to wear whatever the fuck they want and walk down whatever the fuck street they want at whatever time they fucking want without being in danger.


Thank you

[Derbylicious]

I had started a response to this thread and then kicked the power button on my computer by mistake (it must be Monday) so here we go again.

The flip side of the issue of police telling women that they are basically asking for rape by dressing like "sluts" is that it gives the impression that if a woman dresses conservatively that she is not at risk of sexual assault. This can lead to a false sense of security and a lack of vigilance to her surroundings.

Women shouldn't HAVE to worry about how they dress and shouldn't HAVE to be concerned about walking alone at night (or hell, even during the day). Unfortunately that's not the world we live in. Sexual assault is a reality in our world. As such the police have a duty to warn women of the potential danger. But rather than victim blaming the better approach might be to reinforce staying as a group when out, not leaving your drinks unattended and letting someone know where you'll be and what time to expect you back.

[MonoVCPHG]

Women shouldn't HAVE to worry about how they dress and shouldn't HAVE to be concerned about walking alone at night (or hell, even during the day). Unfortunately that's not the world we live in. Sexual assault is a reality in our world. As such the police have a duty to warn women of the potential danger.

Well said Derby. Teaching people appropriate behaviour is a very important part of our early development but it isn't going to have an affect on people who are not bound by social norms or respect for other people. There are sick people out there...they are not bound by what "we should" be able to do. That is why it is up to us to be our own first line of defence.

[Eloise]

http://www.jacksonkatz.com/

http://www.jacksonkatz.com/wmcd.html

I like this guy. Of course not agreeing with every single little point, but good stuff.

[Erin]

The flip side of the issue of police telling women that they are basically asking for rape by dressing like "sluts" is that it gives the impression that if a woman dresses conservatively that she is not at risk of sexual assault. This can lead to a false sense of security and a lack of vigilance to her surroundings.

Interesting you mentioned 'police.'

Here's a very recent article pertaining to two on-duty Chicago cops having consentual sex with an intoxicated woman, but then it got out of hand at her apartment - which led to a sexual assault case. There's no denying they offered her a ride home because she was walking alone at night near Cubs Wrigley Stadium. There's no denying she slept with each of them, and there's no denying a neighbor saw one of them running out half naked but forgot to take his cell phone with him.

Does that make her a slut? Some of the media says yes (based on how they word their stories.)

Does she have a sexual assault case? The neighbor reported she was running from her apartment, screaming. Plus, the cops have been stripped of their powers for having participated in sexual acts on-duty...

Just a few posing questions - just a continuance of this interesting topic...

Chicago SunTimes Newspaper:
http://www.suntimes.com/5330762-417/two-chicago-police-officers-charged-with-sexually-assaulting-woman.html

[Aisling]

What a woman wears is not the central issue in this instance, it is more the greater communities view of rape, guilt, and provocation.

If a woman is out drinking with friends, wearing close fitting or revealing clothing and gets raped she first asks herself. Am I going to get blamed for this? I was a. drinking and b. wearing revealing clothing therefore as stated in an earlier post will people assume I was asking for it? (feel free to replace any of the above with such situations as walking home alone, enjoying myself, being a woman etc)

It is this thought pattern that is the dangerous one as all rape victims are firstly judged on who they are rather than what happened to them. It means that rapes are under reported as many women who drink and/or have had casual sexual encounters in the past are likely to persue the matter knowing that alot of people will think 'she was asking for it'.

A woman may attempt to attract the attention of the other sex, but this in no way means that her rights should be taken away. It is not ok to say a woman in this situation is any less brutalised or degraded by what happened than if she was wearing conservative clothing.

Slutwalk is attempting to say that it doesn't matter what a woman wears, if her choice is taken away it is crime and the punishment should not be lessened or her pain be less important on the basis of what she is wearing.

Personally, this happened to me, I enjoyed sex and on a night out with friends met a friend of a friend and I went home with him. It was consentual in the begining but when he started hurting me and wouldn't let me leave it was not. I struggled, i asked him to stop but I was hurting and scared so I didn't fight as much as I should of. Instead I retreated hoping he would finish quickly and leave.

I never reported it because I had been drinking and it had started out consentual, I knew my history would come into and I didn't want to put myself on trial to prove his guilt. The few friends I told didn't understand, I got told but he was 'hot' so it couldn't be that bad and he had been in a bad place at the time. If my friends couldn't understand why would anyone else?

For months I was scared to be around male friends, jumping or crying if they tried to touch me. I hid from everyone went on antidepressants and anti anxiety meds and could not leave the house by myself. Over the last 5 years things slowly got better, I got of medication, can leave the house by myself and I have rediscovered some of my previous self worth.

But I still find it difficult to meet strange men and to this day I do not drink to excess and only if I have a 'guardian' to stay with at all times. And for the longest time I fought with myself because 'I must have deserved it'.

For all those who consider what a woman wears dictates the severity of the crime. What would someone think if a poly woman with multiple male partners is raped by a stranger (or a friend), is she tarred with the same brush as someone in tight clothing? She too is advertising that she is sexually available and capable of servicing a mans needs.

This is why rape is a horrible crime, it severly affects the victim, who for the most part is judged before the attackers guilt is assertained. It is the mind set of the community that needs to change, there will always be predators who will attack regardless of social status, clothing, appearance, sexual orientation etc. But it is how their crime is judged and how the victim is treated that can be changed.

Sorry - end rant

[nycindie]

There are sick people out there...And those sick people are the ones that need to be educated, and rehabilitated, moreso than teaching women to defend themselves against them. Society needs to focus on healing those that would do harm, and changing attitudes that perpetuate the thinking that allows for it. No matter what a woman wears, or how she conducts herself, no man should think he has a right to overpower her and take what he wants. It is the same as any kind of violence. Just because someone says things that make me mad does not mean I should hit them.

[Derbylicious]

And those sick people are the ones that need to be educated, and rehabilitated, moreso than teaching women to defend themselves against them. Society needs to focus on healing those that would do harm, and changing attitudes that perpetuate the thinking that allows for it. No matter what a woman wears, or how she conducts herself, no man should think he has a right to overpower her and take what he wants. It is the same as any kind of violence. Just because someone says things that make me mad does not mean I should hit them.

Do you have any concrete answers on how to go about finding these men before they offend and how to educate and rehabilitate them? Of couse prevention by taking away the risk is the best possible answer I'm just having a really hard time seeing how it's at all possible.

[nycindie]

Do you have any concrete answers on how to go about finding these men before they offend and how to educate and rehabilitate them? Of couse prevention by taking away the risk is the best possible answer I'm just having a really hard time seeing how it's at all possible.

Oh geez, I am not talking about finding specific people and rehabbing them. I am talking about fixing societal attitudes that create such twisted thinking. We need to instill a reverence for women and humanity in people from a young age, so that no male person ever thinks they can rape, so that sex and sexuality is not mixed up with ideas of good and bad, so that equality among men and women is such a way of life across the board that no one feels the need to forcibly exert power over another, and to stop shaming, medicating, and warehousing those who would have mental imbalances and who would potentially do harm. The problem is endemic in society and it requires a total global shift in attitude and perspective. Some ways to change that is to stand up against what has been allowed to go on thus far.

Also, I never said women should not learn self-defense. It's just that that does nothing to solve the kernel of the problem.

[MonoVCPHG]

Just because someone says things that make me mad does not mean I should hit them.

I'm ok with that ;)

[dingedheart]

I saw the heading and being the forever student had to learn more. I find it wildly funny that the organizers thought this would solve their problem. 1) I would be surprised if all police personnel believe slutty attire fuel rape attacks. My guess alcohol plays a much larger role. Most likely a couple of out of touch opinionated old timer treated someone poorly which started this snowball rolling. 2) the people who would perpetrate such a horrible crime are not going to respond to a protest march.... in fact they may go to spot their next victim. 3) do the women who participated in the walk really want to be known or called sluts ..... I could see young college guys going to see who's easy at 2am. Its like the bra burning in the 60's or 70's .....all they got out of it where saggy ugly boobs....no one else cared....it was regarded as a joke. Now I can't turn on the tv with out see some miracle bra or ah bra infomercial. That could be there target market aging women's lib-ers.

I agree with mono in heeding the warnings of law enforcement. I'm sure the cops would tell a car load of rich white kid in a new BMW that going to Harlem to drink with the brothers is also a huge mistake. Or a biker bar... they can be tricky sometimes as well. An old cop friend of mind told me many years ago nothing really good happens after midnight...especially around bars.

I wonder if New Orleans has a much higher number of rapes during mardi gras?.....outside of the increase in population for the event. The sicko's might see boob flashing as slutty behavior and a invitation.

[Isaac]

Sorry - end rant
You do not need to apologize for telling your story... You deserve no shame for what was done to you, and it is important that those of us who have not and cannot experience this to hear from those who have. I appreciate hearing a first hand perspective on the matter, and I can only (attempt to) imagine how victim blaming (even of the sort that is taking place in this thread) impacts you more than those of us who never have (and never can) experience what you have gone through.

For all those who consider what a woman wears dictates the severity of the crime. What would someone think if a poly woman with multiple male partners is raped by a stranger (or a friend), is she tarred with the same brush as someone in tight clothing? She too is advertising that she is sexually available and capable of servicing a mans needs.

This is a fantastic point. Being poly is yet another marginalized position in society (being a woman is the other one we are discussing here). People in these positions are easily (and arbitrarily) stripped of their rights, rights that they are entitled to by virtue of being human.

Honestly, I have been quite surprised reading the responses here.... I had thought (hoped?) that more of those on a message board about polyamoury (something I see as progressive and inclusive) would have critically examined the myths and biases we are fed every day by mainstream culture/corporate media/etc... I am disappointed to hear so many of these common and damaging beliefs reiterated here, by people I can tell (from the little I have read on this board) are well intentioned and intelligent.


That is why it is up to us to be our own first line of defence.
again it becomes a matter of knowing what can trigger some one to target us and avoid it.
but if a person is triggered to rape by a specific stimulus I think it behooves us to avoid that stimulus.
These are just three instances among many, in which you repeatedly de-gender the conversation. There is no "us" who is targeted by "one," and there is no "we" avoiding the "stimulus." You and I are not included in the folks who are told what to wear and how to behave. Again, the difference between things like helmets, and other things that include everybody equally, and this discussion we are having, is that sexual assault and victim blaming is largely an issue for women and not men. Women are the "us" and the "we," and the "one" you speak of is men (I'll say it again so we don't digress into the 'men get raped too' debate: not all survivors are women and not all perpetrators are men... but a huge majority are).

When I look at this topic I do usually create a very specific rapist as an example..one that preys on a certain look and may not reflect statistical evidence. If the statistical information supports the idea that how women dress is not a stimulus then that should be just as wide spread as any other information. I don't see any personal attack at all :)

I think we do need to teach boys and young men to treat women with respect..and shit like popular music videos and a lot of objectifying porn are not helping the matter. I also think girls should be taught to be smart about understanding that not all boys/men are taught effectively. I think girls and young women do need to take some responsibility for ignoring this fact.

THERE IS NO STIMULUS. You acknowledge that there is NO evidence to support that how a woman dresses has an effect on whether or not she is raped (nor does behavior, age, whether she's had sex before, etc), and then in the same breath perpetuate the myth that if women are "smart" and understand that if they take certain precautions they are less likely to get raped. The later belief is completely refuted by the former fact. There is no fact that women and girls are allegedly ignoring. They can be and are raped regardless of what they do/wear/etc. It makes NO SENSE, understanding this fact, to put any responsibility on them to be "smart" about the way they are in the world... in fact, well worse than not making sense, the placement of this (however small bit of) responsibility on victims shifts responsibility from perpetrators, reinforcing their belief that they can get away with mistreating other people, thereby allowing them to remain comfortable in a society that condones their behavior , at best complicity, and at worst actively.

...dress like a slut, expect to be treated like a slut.

My immediate response to this is absolute disgust. However well intentioned you may be, the cultural context in which you say this renders the statement extremely violent. Do you know how this very statement and ones like it are used against rape victims?

Beyond that response, I wonder: what is a 'slut,' anyway? Can you define it for me? And then, what in that definition renders a 'slut' an acceptable target of violence? If a woman dresses like she 'wants sex,' does she not still get to choose with whom, where, when, and how? Shouldn't we all ALWAYS be granted this right? Nothing any women (or anybody else, for that matter) can do or wear - potentially baring some extreme exceptions, if you're of the opinion that people should get what they deserve... for example in the case of mass murderers or something.... fyi, I'm not - gives any of us the right to deny her of this choice.

[Ivy]

I don't think anyone here has implied that the way a woman dresses affects her level of culpability. There is no culpability on her end--rape is entirely the rapist's fault.

I think the disconnect is that there are two levels of logic going on here.

The first is personal, practical, and preventative. I am female. I live in a somewhat violent, extremely gun-centric, more than slightly misogynistic southwestern US culture. I do NOT want to be raped. How can I keep that from happening? Well, if I'm going to dress like a slut (and I will), I'll go out with friends, keep them apprised of where I am at all times, befriend bouncers and security guards, stay in well-lit places, and have my pepper spray at the ready.

The second level is broad and theoretical, a cultural critique. It's horrible that women have to live in fear. It fucking sucks. It's a product of decades of disempowerment, of a cultural paradigm that represents women as objects to be obtained, conquered, and controlled, of media outlets that portray women as deceptive and manipulative and unable to say "yes" or "no" in clear terms. It's a culture that pits women against each other in competition for men's attention, and then films them as they claw each other's eyes out over a lazy, self-absorbed man who treats them like crap. This is the cultural paradigm that leads people to blame the victim. It needs to change, very badly, whether through education, legal reform, Slutwalk marches, Take Back the Night, or just some good ol' mandatory Gender Studies general education courses.

But forgive me this: if I think I'm about to be raped, I'm not going to rely on a feminist theory textbook to save me.

[dingedheart]

Just had breakfast with a cop friend and ask him some general questions about this topic. He said that in the US rapes have been going down the past few years. The reasons are DNA evidence, higher conviction rates which keeps repeat offenders off the street, smarter or more well informed juries. He also said the law enforcement as a institution does Not believe clothing Slutty or not causes rape. The blame the victim concept is/was a tactic put in to practice by defense attorneys. And if you know any attorney it is just a tactic to win.....its a game and they want and like to win and will do almost anything.

so back to the slutwalk and it purpose ....take back the term slut ....take back the night ....to dress and act and be a slut with out the fear of some creep(s) see that as a whole bunch of easy (no pun intended ) targets. Good luck.
Did it change the community mind set .....potential jury pool? Is there an actual problem in the community in which the slutwalk took place? The FBI tracks all those numbers.

[Derbylicious]

The incident in question happened in Canada, is there an equivalent to the FBI that tracks things here?

[JuicyLish]

Hey, yeah, I remember take back the night: 'Whatever we wear, where-ever we go, yes means yes and no means no'.

Brilliant! But also cold, if memory serves (we had ours in November).

[redpepper]

found this article (http://rabble.ca/news/2011/05/slutwalk-march-or-not-march) maybe it will be of interest... its called "slutwalk: to march or not to march."

[MonoVCPHG]

These are just three instances among many, in which you repeatedly de-gender the conversation.


.

Sorry to confuse you by not bolding the genders in every line. My apologies.
I naturally assume people know what I am talking about but I too underestimate people from time to time..err men....errr women. Whatever.

Bullshit men aren't told what to wear...I can't walk around naked without expecting to get ridiculed or treated differently. I also can't wear my Daisy Dukes with my balls hanging out and expect people not to treat me differently.

Admittedly, feminism is not something that is a part of my cultural background so I am uninformed of the struggles being discussed. I'll bow out. But still, if I, as a man, dress like a street walker I expect someone to try to pick me up ;)

[nycindie]

But still, if I, as a man, dress like a street walker I expect someone to try to pick me up

Trying to pick someone up is not the same as forcibly raping someone.

[dingedheart]

Derby, yes ....maybe 2 ....RCMP and the Canadian security intelligence service. Also there is another source...Canadian Centre for justice statistics.
This sounds like a government agency but you should check that out as well.

[dingedheart]

mono....I thought that was the point of you wearing your daisy dukes. :) By the way when was the last time you had them on?

[Derbylicious]

mono....I thought that was the point of you wearing your daisy dukes. :) By the way when was the last time you had them on?

And why aren't those pictures in your album on here? ;):D

[Tonberry]

I understand mono's point to some extent.
If I was told "There is a serial killer right now who targets female with brown hair tied in a ponytail and blue clothes, in your area", I would make sure not to tie my hair in a ponytail and not to wear blue. And I assume women who don't have brown hair would avoid dying it.

The problem is when people assume all rapist are triggered by the same thing, and that this thing is sex-appeal. Rapists are attracted to people they feel vulnerable enough to assault, which is why a lot of victims are elderly, handicapped or young. They're not targeted for their looks (although I'm sure some of them might be drop-dead gorgeous) but because they're seen as easy targets.
Rape is, after all, a crime of power, with sex used as the weapon, not the end goal. The end goal is telling the person "I control you".

It's sad when people say "she shouldn't have dressed that way", because they wouldn't say that a guy wearing a suit is calling to get mugged ("he's wearing expensive clothes! Surely he should wear rags if he doesn't want people to steal his money!"). I think it's offensive to the women but also to men, because it's sending a message that normal men will become rapists if women around them are dressed a certain way, which is ridiculous. Rapist are rapist and not influenced by the way their victims dress any more than other criminals. And the reasons they target people (their vulnerability) is not something that's as easy to work on, short of hiring a bodyguard, which not everyone can do.