Freedom and commitment in Poly-fi relationships.

[redpepper]

I used to enjoy a life where I had complete freedom to have many partners, now I have a committed Poly-fi relationship.

I was talking with my husband the other day about how at some point, hypothetically, I may find it a challenge to be committed to not having more men in my life. What do I do then?

He said that I can have it one way or another, and that Poly tends to be one way or the other....

Either I could have total freedom (experience anyone I want)
or
total commitment (with a select few in a family manner).

While I agree largely, I wonder if people can balance this? How can a balance be achieved under such circumstances? I just wonder if there is a possibility to continue to be comfortable with the freedom I have in my commitments for the long haul?

[greenearthal]

In all relationships, the people in the relationships have the right to set and modify their own boundaries. If a person says I am comfortable with you dividing your attention between me and n other people, but I could never be comfortable with you dividing your attention between me and n+1 other people, then you can respect that boundary, look for any room to negotiate around that boundary, or, if you have a boundary that is completely incompatible with there being any set number then you can dig in your heals and see whether or not the relationship in question survives n+1.

[Ceoli]

I guess I see freedom and commitment as something that can happily coexist. For me, commitment is not about how much time I spend with my partner, but about how much I devote to meeting my my partner's needs. I think that can happen while still being open to the possibility of new partners. Of course, the decisions I make about involving a new partner would be balanced against whether or not I can meet the commitments I've already made and the potential commitment I make to my prospective partner. But I believe that freedom is about being trusted to make those decisions for myself without having to set an outside limit.

I see commitment as so much more than just deciding to be exclusive. I know many partners that have those limits and yet the level of commitment they have to each other is arguably low. I would hope that when I commit to a partner, they would trust me enough to know that I can have that freedom to be open to possibilities yet will be able to make all those decisions based on honoring the commitments that I already have. If I feel poly-saturated- that any new relationship would mean having to devote less to my current relationships- then I would probably not want to include anyone new. But I also recognize that those things can change. My commitment is about my devotion to that relationship, not in about promising not to have more relationships.

[MonoVCPHG]

Fortunately Redpepper and me got to spend much of the weekend together with her son. We had lots of talks as per normal and the topic of this thread came up. I thought it was an important point to put out there to our friends and the community.

I was approaching it not so much as how you (the person seeking freedom as we are using the term here) are able to commit to all these people, but what type of dedication/commitment do you expect to get in return from each person or certain ones.

Again it all seems to come down to what your goals are. Do you want multiple people to not only be romantically involved with but also to be an integrated part of your family, sharing chores, family functions, contributing to child care etc? Or do you simply want to have a very fluid, completely open relationship?

Having multiple free flowing and fluid relationships is very possible, as we have seen with people at our poly meetings. These people do not seem to not have committed people with which they are building homes, raising children, planning a future or sharing the mundane responsibilities of life with. They tend to be single, young, or newly divorced from traditional marriages.

Having committed family integrated relationships are also possible as we ourselves are experiencing.

Having total "freedom" (as defined earlier in this thread) and total "commitment" (as defined earlier in this post) is not something we have seen working in person however.

I myself, although completely devoted to Redpepper within our dynamic and boundaries, know that I would inevitably succumb to the stresses of a 100% free flowing relationship. I am blessed to, without effort, look at her and her husband as one entity and therefore can honestly say I have experienced a zero jealousy poly situation. I do however have my boundaries with the introduction of new men.

So in affect, she knows I am hers as an integrated, dedicated family member. We have pushed this belief to near the breaking point in coming out to her family. She also knows I ask for certain boundaries for me to be healthy.

The Spectrum

I represent one end of the spectrum…total, lifelong, family integrated, goal and future orientated commitment in a poly dynamic with her husband, her tertiary and future women to love (not to share with me, I’m so not into two women LOL)

I could not co-exist with the other end of the spectrum…total freedom to explore any love interest that arises whether male or female. (The difference in why one is possible and the other not is another thread that I may someday tackle as it is very private to me and I have yet to be able to fully explain it to even Redpepper.)

Redpepper’s responsibility is in evaluating, and re-evaluating if the relationships she has and the contribution from each is worth the resultant “cost” of our boundaries.

I have to do this too. For me, although monogamous in nature, any “cost” I experience currently is outweighed by the “gifts” I receive which is sharing in her love and family.

While we spend a lot of time talking about mythical unicorns on here I sometimes feel that the idea of a utopian community of completely dedicated and completely free lovers is the true unicorn of poly. IMO getting everything is not a realistic or achievable goal in any area of life. I simply have to ask myself what I have right now, in this moment, as I am, to see the truth in that for me. That doesn’t make life any less amazing or rewarding.....for me it just makes it real.

Again, though…everything comes down to goals :)

Peace and Love
Mono

[LovingRadiance]

What a very interesting question RP. I'm not even sure that I know that there is an answer. Very thought provoking.

Obviously as you all know Maca and I are in the process of defining our poly-relationship having been in what should have been a mono relationship -but I f'd that up very well.

In defining that-we haven't really addressed the "terms" for the future as of yet-though I'm sure we both have thoughts in mind.

For me-I do not want another man in the picture-(thankfully neither of them are bi) and would be rather offended at the suggestion.
As for women-I reserve the thought that someday I may be interested in pursuing a woman again-but at this time in my life I am not even remotely interested in touching on that aspect of my nature. Too much baggage.

BUT I don't care if either of the guys has a girlfriend, even two.. I think that there is a significant limit to how well they can do their jobs in our family if they were to get into serious relationships with more then two women beyond me because time is already a strain with 3 kids left to raise. However-if they found a way to do it-whatever.

As for living in our home-I think I would have to set a limit on how many extra women were moving into our home as "partners" to our family for a variety of reasons some selfish-some not so much. Unselfishly-there is a space issue. But selfishly-all of the kids in our home are mine-and I flat refuse to defer to ANY other woman but my sister on raising them. I WILL be the final decision maker in regards to their well-being and that is not optional, so a woman moving in would need to be comfortable with that.... limitation on her role in our family...

.....

I'm not interested in just having a flat open relationship. I don't feel I need it nor do I feel it would benefit me. I am not sure how I would feel if one of the guys wanted to be able to "partner hop" at will either... Honestly-I haven't much considered it beyond them having a girlfriend.....

Again-interesting topic RP!!!

[redpepper]

There is freedom in commitment as Rarechild has mentioned in another thread untitled "ORE." I'm hoping she will write about that here :) *entice entice*

[Rarechild]

Well, RP, you sure do know the shortcut to my heart-ask my advice, or better yet, ask me to write about something I care about.

First I have a couple of ?'s about your OP-

He said that I can have it one way or another, and that Poly tends to be one way or the other....

Either I could have total freedom (experience anyone I want)
or
total commitment (with a select few in a family manner).

While I agree largely, I wonder if people can balance this? How can a balance be achieved under such circumstances? I just wonder if there is a possibility to continue to be comfortable with the freedom I have in my commitments for the long haul?

1.Your husband was saying you can have it this way (with me) or that way (without me)? Or just stating the possibilities?

2.Would you say that you current poly-fi relationship has been defined as it has (with the "-fi") absolutely mutually or largely according to the needs of your 4 men(or one of them)?

3.What made you start pondering on this?

4. What do you mean when you say "freedom in commitment"?

What I meant on the ORE thread was mainly about being trusted. I have never been trusted before, or never could be, anyway. I fought dirty on and off the playground by hiding my true motives and thoughts behind "independence" or "toughness" or even "strength".

I am a huge journal writer. I used it for a long time to collect all the things I nerve had the guts to say to anyone, least of all those closest to me. Despite this I am a pretty cool chick and do emote quite a bit so people have always felt they could trust me, but I have only just begun now to reciprocate and trust others.

This leaves me in a vulnerable place that I have always avoided because if you are depending on someone, and they are depending on you, it gives you the perfect opportunity to fuck it up and show your most personal weaknesses.

I admit I've gotten though the hardest times in my life repeating "I can survive anything" over and over in my head.

A long preamble to say- I am getting a taste of what 5 years of relentlessly probing (yes, probing!) another person can accomplish, and thankfully, instead of a divorce, for me, it's trust.

So, for me, my freedom is the understanding coming about between D and I that we trust each other so much that I haven't written anxiety-ridden, rage-filled, sexually frustrated journal entries about how I could never tell him A or B, or he'd do C-- in about 4 months. Not a long time, but it's been building and I love it. I trust that we will be loving when we speak our minds, and if we aren't or we don't we'll try again directly.

That frees me. I am above the suspicion that I always felt I've lived under,because I'm a woman, because I'm whatever, insert label here.

I have this one relationship that is in this place, and I want to have more.

From what you write, RP, it seems you have some good people on your side too, who will listen to you thoughts and feelings if a time came that the dynamic could shift. Being committed is being committed to someone's happiness, not to their self-sacrifice. That is one of the things that always tuned me off about The Marriage Concept - that things that could be labeled "self-sacrifice" were somehow an ideal, and you were supposed to laugh about it over drinks once a year. I digress. (it is 2 in the morning)

I must say you are voracious for life like I am and I'm interested to know your answers.

Must go to bed now. :)

[MonoVCPHG]

2.Would you say that you current poly-fi relationship has been defined as it has (with the "-fi") absolutely mutually or largely according to the needs of your 4 men(or one of them)?



Three men Jeesh!!! (HAHA!) And let's be sure that I am a much more limiting factor in Redpepper's life when it comes to new relationships. I'll take responsibility for that. It's already come up recently....ok ...now over to her. :)

[redpepper]

1.Your husband was saying you can have it this way (with me) or that way (without me)? Or just stating the possibilities?

Stating the possibilities... we were just talking about what we have noticed in the community is all.

2.Would you say that you current poly-fi relationship has been defined as it has (with the "-fi") absolutely mutually or largely according to the needs of your 4 men(or one of them)?

I'm not sure I understand the question, but if you are asking if we mutually decided or if I act out of others needs then I would have to say a bit of both. I needed containing when Mono came along, I had several things on the go and was battling some stuff that had happened in the last year that I needed to look at.

I think it was good to go out into the world, but, believe it or not I am very sensitive and have a really hard time with being rejected or used (mother issues, surprise surprise!:o).... for example I friended someone on FB from here who dropped me as a friend and I still am hurt about it and think about it often...it was over two months ago. I knew her from only a few days worth of posts and a couple of emails and yet I am mortally wounded by this.

Needless to say I needed containing and when Mono asked for this boundary I was ready to give it. I dropped one of the men as he and my husband pointed out that he was damaging to me... one of those danger people that we all have. It turned out he was right and I am now deeply wounded by how that ended too. The three men I have in my life are committed to me for the long haul and very protective. I feel contained and loved.

My husband was glad I chose this path as he was exhausted trying to keep up with my activities and his emotions. I also think about my son in this and the stability of our family as a whole... my cruising days with men were over. So it all works for me.

3.What made you start pondering on this?

I have thought about it all along, just didn't know how to articulate it. I'm still not sure I have fully... it's scary for Mono and for me, but we work at it slowly. I think the fear for Mono is that I will want to go and search for other men to sleep with and love like I do him. My fear is that I will hurt him in some way without even knowing just by being me.

4. What do you mean when you say "freedom in commitment"?

You were saying on the ORE thread that there is a sense of freedom in being committed to someone in a marriage. I agree whole heartedly! I feel free in some ways in the relationships I have now. I feel as if I am loved enough to start taking care of myself and my needs. I can rest on the love in in my life and let it support me.... my problem is not letting it make me feel as if it is conditional love... as it is with my mother and how I was raised. I want to feel as if I can be completely myself and be lovable in that. I think it will just take time and working on it with all of us.


I have this one relationship that is in this place, and I want to have more.

Wow, what a great insight into who you are... thanks for sharing that! I'm so glad that you are at the place you are at right now. So healthy and so full of hope for the future! Good for you!


From what you write, RP, it seems you have some good people on your side too, who will listen to you thoughts and feelings if a time came that the dynamic could shift. Being committed is being committed to someone's happiness, not to their self-sacrifice.

Do you mean that I should not self-sacrifice? No one should really. I am committed to happiness on all sides I think, and I believe we are all happy right now. Who knows what the future will bring... I predict that Mono and I will have plenty of chances to push each other and plenty of chances to grow from that. We both have healing to do in our lives and baggage to deal with and I really think that in dealing with some of that we will be more free in our relationship in the form of committing more to our happiness. It's hard to explain on here without going into details that only we know. Actually I thought of something from writing that just now that makes me understand "us" a bit better. I will have to talk to him again... it goes around and around! :)

What I originally wrote:

"I may find it a challenge to be committed to not having more men in my life. What do I do then?"

I think I will have avoided the real issues if I were to break this commitment. I really have a lot of work to do on myself still. I only just recently could be alone by myself thanks to Mono's help on my stuff... we really do support each other as I know I help him too. I am only just realizing that in being able to be alone I have opened a flood gate to other issues I have... ahhhhh!!! so much to do to get to a place of balance. I'm so fortunate to have such great supporters in that journey!

More of what I originally wrote:

"Either I could have total freedom (experience anyone I want) or total commitment (with a select few in a family manner). While I agree largely, I wonder if people can balance this? How can a balance be achieved under such circumstances? I just wonder if there is a possibility to continue to be comfortable with the freedom I have in my commitments for the long haul?"

I think there is not so much a balance but a continuum that one falls on... complete freedom on one side and total commitment monogamy style on the other. I fall somewhere in the middle to committed end of it and recently realized that if I were to add anyone else it would take away from the others... to me commitment is about spending time... so in fact I would be less committed to my men and my family. I think rather than adding more people I need to start thinking of adding MYSELF on that continuum... something I have not done in a long time! I need to seek a relationship with myself before even THINKING it's possible to add another love in my life! My job now is to not feel as if I am take away the time I spend with my loves because I am pursuing a deeper relationship with myself. If I figure that out that is where my freedom will lie I think...

Oh I hope I am making sense!!!:eek:

[MonoVCPHG]

I know my reply is a bit of a tangent but I am sure all these questions will go through people's minds so why not tackle them.

One of the beauties of this forum is the honesty that people express themselves. Through this honesty others get to learn and without a doubt Redpepper and I are honest.



I think the fear for Mono is that I will want to go and search for other men to sleep with and love like I do him. My fear is that I will hurt him in some way without even knowing just by being me.

Totally agreed Lilo! The reasons for my fear are bang on. I have a good grasp of your fear I believe as well. Redpepper comes from a much more sex positive, sexually open background. Sexually open refers to talking about personal details and excitement in discussing/exploring sexuality in general. I often marvel at how much she shares about me and our relationship with other people without my awareness. We just talked about this and I am comfortable with this now.

It doesn't take much to affect my energy, so we try to cover our bases in great detail like before we attended a BDSM event. There is also a good chance I will sit our next poly meeting out because the topic is an energy land mine for me - SEX! Through in depth talks about things we avoid inadvertently crossing lines that would be hard to come back from.


my problem is not letting it make me feel as if it is conditional love...

Anyone who reads my posts will probably say that I am "conditional" in my love. I would certainly comment about that! I am in fact conditional but it is conditional in how I will express my to love you, not in that I will love you. Loving you is not an option, I simply do and that won't change :)


I think I will have avoided the real issues if I were to break this commitment.
:

There is nothing to avoid, I am black and white in this. This isn't a negative in my eyes, this is complete clarity. I know I will take a little heat for sure from a lot of people in this but in cases of definitive boundaries there should be radical honesty.

I fully expect people to question the resilience of our relationship after reading this thread. We do not live in a fairy tale world, we are very realistic. Just this weekend Redpepper and I had a serious and sad discussion about sustainability of our love as it is. I have my concerns about it; I am not so sure our different natures and social backgrounds/circles can come to terms in a long term healthy way in the "forever" sense. I do know we will be connected and always share love however. The key is that I am not letting doubts prevent me from moving forward towards a goal of family acceptance, family integration and a lifelong fulfilling commitment in which all of us are happy and healthy.

What more can any relationship hope for?


Peace and love
Mono

[Rarechild]

Three men Jeesh!!! ]

Mono, I was counting you, husband, "tertiary", and son. :)

[MonoVCPHG]

Mono, I was counting you, husband, "tertiary", and son. :)

I thought you might be..but when this journey began there was four...err five including her son :)

Busy, busy!!

[MonoVCPHG]

Redpepper and I were discussing how this thread would be a good look at aspects of mono/poly relationships as well. We wish someone would be able to figure out how to add tags after a thread has been posted...grrrr:mad:

Anyone have any ideas?

[NeonKaos]

Um, look where the tags are, then look over to the right and there is a little thing that says "Edit tags".

[MonoVCPHG]

Um, look where the tags are, then look over to the right and there is a little thing that says "Edit tags".


I can build these fucking machines and yet I can't figure out how to do this at all..maybe you need original tags to be able to modify them....I surrender.

[NeonKaos]

Mono, it's right here; you want me to do it for you? Tell me what tags you want added and I'll add them for you.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------|
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------V

UNDER where it says "Edit" and Quote". There's a little blue bar with the word "Tags" on the left side of the screen and the words "Edit Tags" on the right hand side of the screen.

I don't have time to come over there and SHOW you with my finger.

Now see that I added a tag called "Add Edit Tags".

[MonoVCPHG]

Mono, it's right here;

Now see that I added a tag called "Add Edit Tags".

I found it!! Thanks...:o

[NeonKaos]

It looks like it will only let me add 2 tags, so I deleted the fake one I just added. Maybe if you started the thread it will let you add as many tags as you want. If you need to add more tags and it won't let you, you can use mine.

It looks like anyone can fuck with anyone else's tags.

[Rarechild]

WOW, RP and Mono, I thought you all were lucky in love before, but I've gained a much deeper appreciation for the treasure you have. Thank you for sharing all of that- I'm sure there was much more to it in the real world.


I'm not sure I understand the question, but if you are asking if we mutually decided or if I act out of others needs then I would have to say a bit of both. I needed containing when Mono came along, I had several things on the go and was battling some stuff that had happened in the last year that I needed to look at. .......
Needless to say I needed containing and when Mono asked for this boundary I was ready to give it. I dropped one of the men as he and my husband pointed out that he was damaging to me... one of those danger people that we all have. It turned out he was right and I am now deeply wounded by how that ended too. The three men I have in my life are committed to me for the long haul and very protective. I feel contained and loved.


I feel as if I am loved enough to start taking care of myself and my needs. I can rest on the love in in my life and let it support me.... my problem is not letting it make me feel as if it is conditional love... as it is with my mother and how I was raised.

It seems you've identified some huge factors concerning your motives. I know what you're talking about with the upbringing. I have railed against the confines of traditional relationships and all of the preconceived crap that ends up having to be rummaged through piece by piece and sorted every time.

You mentioned before about people finding the balance- it seems to me that your loved ones are very actively supporting a balance for all of you and what a precious thing! This is the freedom I as talking about. You can be yourself , with all your love and seeking and changing, and you won't be penalized! The freedom in knowing you're supported, even if you're confused or at odds for a minute, and that trust that you won't walk away without a fight.


Do you mean that I should not self-sacrifice? No one should really. I am committed to happiness on all sides I think, and I believe we are all happy right now

I believe in selfishness, yes- only way to love someone else. Selfishness in regards to making sure that commitment doesn't turn into obligation.


I think I will have avoided the real issues if I were to break this commitment. I really have a lot of work to do on myself still. I only just recently could be alone by myself thanks to Mono's help on my stuff... we really do support each other as I know I help him too. I am only just realizing that in being able to be alone I have opened a flood gate to other issues I have... ahhhhh!!! so much to do to get to a place of balance. I'm so fortunate to have such great supporters in that journey!......
I think rather than adding more people I need to start thinking of adding MYSELF on that continuum... something I have not done in a long time! I need to seek a relationship with myself before even THINKING it's possible to add another love in my life! My job now is to not feel as if I am take away the time I spend with my loves because I am pursuing a deeper relationship with myself. If I figure that out that is where my freedom will lie I think...

Oh I hope I am making sense!!!:eek:

You're making all kinds of sense. It is so wonderful to witness a little of the symbiosis that you and your family have. I want to say it seems like all the components of balance are there for you, RP, but of course, I'm disembodied observer to the situation as it is for you.

I really like what you said about things coming up when you spend time alone, and that you place enough value on that to allow yourself the time to work through it.

I love to watch people bloom. Thanks. :)

[redpepper]

Originally Posted by redpepper:
"I think I will have avoided the real issues if I were to break this commitment."

There is nothing to avoid, I am black and white in this. This isn't a negative in my eyes, this is complete clarity. I know I will take a little heat for sure from a lot of people in this but in cases of definitive boundaries there should be radical honesty.

I'm not sure you understood that the issues I would be avoiding were MY OWN (being alone, loving myself, spending time with myself more), not "ours." It is black and white, either I chose to avoid the issues "I" have (by seeking others to be in my life as a way to avoid) and break my commitment or face up to what I need to work on.

It's all within me and now that I am aware of it of course I will chose to work on it... what else is there? I love you deeply and in a way that I have never loved before. We are bonded in a way that is rare and beautiful. I know that and respect it as something that is out side of my baggage and issues that need to be dealt with..... it's not in my nature to be lazy about working on my stuff. I will do the work as you will do yours and years from now we will look back and laugh... ahhhhahahahahhhhaaa :p

[MonoVCPHG]

I will do the work as you will do yours and years from now we will look back and laugh... ahhhhahahahahhhhaaa :p

:o I seriously don't know why you want me in your life in this way...but I am loving it abby...I mean Baby!! :D

You amaze me. XOXOXOX

[redpepper]

I fully expect people to question the resilience of our relationship after reading this thread. We do not live in a fairy tale world, we are very realistic. Just this weekend Redpepper and I had a serious and sad discussion about sustainability of our love as it is. I have my concerns about it; I am not so sure our different natures and social backgrounds/circles can come to terms in a long term healthy way in the "forever" sense. I do know we will be connected and always share love however. The key is that I am not letting doubts prevent me from moving forward towards a goal of family acceptance, family integration and a lifelong fulfilling commitment in which all of us are happy and healthy.

What more can any relationship hope for?

:( to come to some clarity and grounding in this.... BAAaaaah, Mono/Poly relationships are f-ing hard work!!! It will take time but whatever is meant to be will be. I know one thing is for sure, I am learning, growing, and very dedicated to our future, whatever that holds.

[redpepper]

Thanks Rarechild for asking hard questions and for helping us figure this shit out! Lots of love to you (hope you are feeling better today)

[MonoVCPHG]

[QUOTE=redpepper;9324] I know one thing is for sure, I am learning, growing, and very dedicated to our future, whatever that holds.[/QUOTE

Me too Sunshine..thanks Rarechild.

[Rarechild]

I don't have time to come over there and SHOW you with my finger.



Burn!

[MonoVCPHG]

Burn!

No one is spared the harsh forwardness of Ygirl ;)

[Rarechild]

Me too Sunshine..thanks Rarechild.

Dood, I so wish D and I could make it to your party. I hope you and the family have a great night- you have lots to celebrate!

[NeonKaos]

No one is spared the harsh forwardness of Ygirl ;)

I wasn't trying to be harsh, but you couldn't see me pointing at it, so I TOLD you!

I was about to give up if you couldn't find it after I said that.

[MonoVCPHG]

I wasn't trying to be harsh, but you couldn't see me pointing at it, so I TOLD you!

I was about to give up if you couldn't find it after I said that.

I was ready to give up on myself too LOL!

[HappiestManAlive]

Awesome thread, as this subject has constituted some background noise in our triad for a while.

Me + Violet = a relationship between two people who were open to their partners taking other partners, but we didnt' consider ourselves "swingers" or in an "open" relationship- though by general concensous definition, I suppose an "open relationship" is what we had. I wasn't thrilled about her taking other men, seriously or just flings, but couldn't care ess about her with women. Not only did she not care if I had other women (men not an optio, straight as an arrow), she encouraged it, lol. We wanted to find a unicorn, bu weren't actively looking anymore. Then Anne came along.

Anne knew what we had coming in. Anne has been repressing her bisexuality - indeed, most of her sexuality in general, lol - for her whole life. Monogamy is what she knows, for better or for worse. So it was a leap for her, but she approached US about joining us, not the other way around. And she said it was strange how she didn't care that Violet and I were together, it didn't make her jealous - BUT - other women would be a problem. For me. She would prefer than Violet not have lots of other girls, but would deal - but she said from teh get-go that she would have serious issues if I did.

I was okay with this. Totally worth it - I wasn't exactly taking Violet up on it regularly Okay, barely at all, lol (apparently the way to guarantee monogamy from me is to try and get me to fuck all your friends), and having Anne in our lives was worth the trade.

And now, twomonths and all kinds of other drama later, Anne has started to tease me about sleeping with another woman. In fact, she's starting to see where Violet was coming from (I still don't completely, lol) and agree with her - she thinks the idea of me having an occasional fling is hot.

Total change in mindset for her. And I don't want to do it becuase I'm afraid the reality will hit her and she won't like it the way she thinks she will.

And that's just sex. What if I fell for another woman that wasnt into either or both of them? I've heard a rumor that completely striaight and completely mono women exist, lol. Violet wouldn't care one bit - I don't think Anne would be in real good shape over it despite what she says.

Anyway - I got long again. Interesting thread at an interesting time as it's been in my head for a while now. :(

[Ceoli]

I was approaching it not so much as how you (the person seeking freedom as we are using the term here) are able to commit to all these people, but what type of dedication/commitment do you expect to get in return from each person or certain ones.

I'm not sure I'm understanding this definition of commitment. This sounds more like expectations than commitment to me.

Again it all seems to come down to what your goals are. Do you want multiple people to not only be romantically involved with but also to be an integrated part of your family, sharing chores, family functions, contributing to child care etc? Or do you simply want to have a very fluid, completely open relationship?

Putting it that way seems to negate all of the relationship possibilities that exist between both of those. There are so many ways partners can have an integrated family unit with multiple partners while still remaining open to possibilities of other people or partners.

multiple free flowing and fluid relationships is very possible, as we have seen with people at our poly meetings. These people do not seem to not have committed people with which they are building homes, raising children, planning a future or sharing the mundane responsibilities of life with. They tend to be single, young, or newly divorced from traditional marriages.

Having committed family integrated relationships are also possible as we ourselves are experiencing.

Having total "freedom" (as defined earlier in this thread) and total "commitment" (as defined earlier in this post) is not something we have seen working in person however.

I still feel like there's an artificial binary in this equation. Having freedom in your relationships to be open to additional partners doesn't have to mean that there's a revolving door of relationships. Having the freedom to have additional partners doesn't necessitate continually adding partners or not being able to form deep life building commitments in the process. And for some, not all partnerships have to be about raising a family together. That's the beauty of it, there is room for connections to exist on the level that's right for them to exist on. When they can just live in their natural levels, one connection doesn't have to take away or limit another connection.

For me, the freedom lies in who's choice it is. I've known people who have built multiple long term life building partnerships while still being open to additional partnerships. They do so knowing how to make their choices in ways that allow their other partnerships to remain balanced. They do so with intentionality and responsibility to the commitments they already have. But they still have the freedom to make those choices for themselves.

For me, being poly is about the freedom to make spaces for the people in my life, not to find people for the spaces in my life.

[MonoVCPHG]

For me, the freedom lies in who's choice it is. I've known people who have built multiple long term life building partnerships while still being open to additional partnerships. They do so knowing how to make their choices in ways that allow their other partnerships to remain balanced. They do so with intentionality and responsibility to the commitments they already have. But they still have the freedom to make those choices for themselves.

For me, being poly is about the freedom to make spaces for the people in my life, not to find people for the spaces in my life.

I understand what you are saying, Ceoli, and respect your opinion and ideal of what you see as possible for yourself......I'm just a person who wants to see a working example, not just hear ot theorize about it. I just don't see it working around me and am fully aware that it is not for me.

I'm not poly...I've merely found something that against all odds works for me. I'm not asking anyone to change, but I am not wanting to change either. As long as people are happy and healthy I will be fullfilled. I would never say you can't do anything, I'm just saying I won't do it with you.

[Ceoli]

I'm just a person who wants to see a working example, not just hear ot theorize about it. I just don't see it working around me and am fully aware that it is not for me.

I'm not poly...I've merely found something that against all odds works for me. I'm not asking anyone to change, but I am not wanting to change either. As long as people are happy and healthy I will be fullfilled. I would never say you can't do anything, I'm just saying I won't do it with you.

Fair enough, but you also seem to be saying that models that do exist and work well for many people out there don't work because they don't fit your view of how relationships should be or because you haven't seen it. It's fine that they don't work for you, but many times (and please correct me if I'm wrong) I'm reading a subtext of value judgments on varied relationships styles.

While I'm sure you're very attractive, what you choose to do with me isn't in question. ;)

[maca]

I know I will take a little heat for sure from a lot of people in this but in cases of definitive boundaries there should be radical honesty.

I fully expect people to question the resilience of our relationship after reading this thread. We do not live in a fairy tale world, we are very realistic. Just this weekend Redpepper and I had a serious and sad discussion about sustainability of our love as it is. I have my concerns about it; I am not so sure our different natures and social backgrounds/circles can come to terms in a long term healthy way in the "forever" sense. I do know we will be connected and always share love however.


Peace and love
Mono


Although I have only been with another woman ,while commited to one allready, once before( 3 some with LR and another woman).I can feel the love in conversing with LR about what /when/who I think I would be interested in. Hell I may discover that there just isnt anyone out there for me besides LR and I could and would be happy with just that.

Little off subject

I would dare say Mono that the only thing you are mono in is SEX cause you understand live and love what it truly means to be poly. Honesty, communication, compassion, being true to yourself, and loving others. I think your poly BI :) or mono BI which ever sounds better :P

[MonoVCPHG]

I'm reading a subtext of value judgments on varied relationships styles.

While I'm sure you're very attractive, what you choose to do with me isn't in question. ;)

No subtext intended Ceoli, seriously. I am just very aware of what I can be in and maintain sanity lol! Sorry if that came across though.

You are very funny....as long as you don't question what I choose to do with you we'll be fine ;)

[redpepper]

I'm not sure how what we were talking about relates HMA? These women of yours are half your age! Of course Anne jokes about you having other women! She's only just started on her love path and really may be mature but not wise yet. She has a whole life time of lovers awaiting her, as does violet. You and I babes are on the down turn. We've lived some shit, become jaded, and baggage ladden. With that is a richness that someone who is 21 doesn't have. A richness that I personally find far more attractive in women my age than young women. In men too for that matter.

I am happy for you that you are having some good times and have some young lovin, but I wonder what kind of future that will have when you are 60 and they 40? I know what its like to be 40 (well almost), I don't want no wrinkly ass old guy. Ewww!

Yup I would be fearful about anyone at 2 monthes joking about other women for you to play with. It just doesn't hark of the comittment this thread talks about. The freedom part, yes! Perhaps she is hoping for a little extra herself. And why not! At her age, what you three have was what I called dating, not poly.

As a general question to the world... Why has that changed??!!! Please tell me you young ones who read. Why bog oneself down with those terms when you are supposed to be fucking everyone! Falling in love at the drop of a hat and getting your heart broken just as much.

HMA, thanks for giving me the inspiration for another thread starter! You rock! Sorry I rocked your boat again but I ain't no Ceoli. Lovely as you are Ceoli. I just can't get my words out as nicely as you apparently. I seem to be closer to the ygirl end.

[MonoVCPHG]

Little off subject

I would dare say Mono that the only thing you are mono in is SEX cause you understand live and love what it truly means to be poly. :P

It merely means I only love one person romantically including sexual expression at a time. All the other stuff is not poly specific.

In summary - I am comfortable living and loving the current poly "fI" dynamic I have and can handle the inclusion of other women. I will not be able to commit the same way to a more open form of poly. I have dedicated my love and family support to Redpepper but I would never pursue another poly relationship as a mono person and I do not recommend them to others for the health of both the mono and the poly person.

[MonoVCPHG]

ummmm...my last post..a little emotionally charged...sorry for that.

[redpepper]

For me, being poly is about the freedom to make spaces for the people in my life, not to find people for the spaces in my life.

I totally agree Ceoli, well put... my spaces are filled quite nicely thank you very much. Because I made them first, tried some people on and found who I needed...

[HappiestManAlive]

It relates because age aside, you are having concerns about your poly nature and it's "limits" as they apply to your existing relationship(s), and so am I. :shrug:

As for the age thing - I'm realistic about it. Both girls insist that they are going to be around for the long haul; Violet has had almost a year to convince me, Anne only a couple of months to make up her mind. I absolutely get it that they have their 20's ahead of them - how would it be again, lol - in fact, there have been many conversations about me feeling that by participating in this relationship I am "robbing them of this time in their lives". Both of them are auite pointedly stating that plenty of girls marry very successfully at their age, and that if they meet that guy and he's a few years older, so be it. And for the record, the age gap is ~13 years, not 20, so when they're 40 I'll be a respectable 53 give or take. Not TOO bad, lol.

In any event, i am grateful for the time we are having, one day at a time. Every morning I wake up amazed that Violet is next to me. When we meet up with Anne, I am speechless looking at the two of them sitting next to each other smiling and saying they love me. If and when one or both of them "outgrow" it, I will have had this time and will be gratefull for it. Until then, I choose to let them make their own decisions so long as they aren't destructive, and right now they both continually choose to stay with this, and are in fact quite annoyed that I question them about it!

[Ceoli]

No subtext intended Ceoli, seriously. I am just very aware of what I can be in and maintain sanity lol! Sorry if that came across though.

I guess what I'm trying to figure out here is whether or not you're looking down upon relationships that remain open as not possibly being able to be as committed, responsible or meaningful as relationships that close into some fidelitous model. This is what I mean by value judgement. Everybody has different models that work best for them, I think most of us understand that. But there's a difference between saying that something works much better for me and saying that my relationships are superior or more committed than others because of how I structure them.

[MonoVCPHG]

No I'm certainly not looking down on any love style. I am mearly stating what I am comfortable in. I sometimes get caught up in other peoples dynamics that wouldn't work for me and respond out of emotion not rational thought. Sorry, RP kicked my ass over this and reminded me that I often do this. I'm retreating from the forums for now as it's my birthday tomorrow and RP is here, (naked:D) until 4 pm tomorrow!!!! wee heeeeee....

[redpepper]

It relates because age aside, you are having concerns about your poly nature and it's "limits" as they apply to your existing relationship(s), and so am I. :shrug:

As for the age thing - I'm realistic about it. Both girls insist that they are going to be around for the long haul; Violet has had almost a year to convince me, Anne only a couple of months to make up her mind. I absolutely get it that they have their 20's ahead of them - how would it be again, lol - in fact, there have been many conversations about me feeling that by participating in this relationship I am "robbing them of this time in their lives". Both of them are auite pointedly stating that plenty of girls marry very successfully at their age, and that if they meet that guy and he's a few years older, so be it. And for the record, the age gap is ~13 years, not 20, so when they're 40 I'll be a respectable 53 give or take. Not TOO bad, lol.

In any event, i am grateful for the time we are having, one day at a time. Every morning I wake up amazed that Violet is next to me. When we meet up with Anne, I am speechless looking at the two of them sitting next to each other smiling and saying they love me. If and when one or both of them "outgrow" it, I will have had this time and will be gratefull for it. Until then, I choose to let them make their own decisions so long as they aren't destructive, and right now they both continually choose to stay with this, and are in fact quite annoyed that I question them about it!


wow! I felt like I totally slammed you and you responded with a well thought out and rational response that makes sense! I'm impressed...

[maca]

It merely means I only love one person romantically including sexual expression at a time. All the other stuff is not poly specific.

In summary - I am comfortable living and loving the current poly "fI" dynamic I have and can handle the inclusion of other women. I will not be able to commit the same way to a more open form of poly. I have dedicated my love and family support to Redpepper but I would never pursue another poly relationship as a mono person and I do not recommend them to others for the health of both the mono and the poly person.


Allthough I agree that" All the other stuff is not poly specific" I have seen that living a poly friendly lifestyle promotes all that other stuff.Its a given that ALL relationships SHOULD be loving ,honest, open, compassionate but thats not allways the case. What I have seen from the poly population is a dedication beyond that of normal relationships. Hence my comment that you are only mono in the physical and romantic sense. Hopefully you can see that in no way am I belittling you or your stand for what is healthy for you. I respect you.

[MonoVCPHG]

Allthough I agree that" All the other stuff is not poly specific" I have seen that living a poly friendly lifestyle promotes all that other stuff.Its a given that ALL relationships SHOULD be loving ,honest, open, compassionate but thats not allways the case. What I have seen from the poly population is a dedication beyond that of normal relationships. Hence my comment that you are only mono in the physical and romantic sense. Hopefully you can see that in no way am I belittling you or your stand for what is healthy for you. I respect you.

I owe you a bit of an apology my friend. I have been going through some stuff outside of my relationship as well as within it. The culmination of pressures has been weighing me down and making me repeat a pattern I think I will talk about on another thread. In short, I was out of line with my reply. I was coming from a place of frustration and hurt. I pushed at the people around me to see if they would turn away. Yet again they held on.

Sorry Maca.
Take care
Mono

[LovingRadiance]

I owe you a bit of an apology my friend. I have been going through some stuff outside of my relationship as well as within it. The culmination of pressures has been weighing me down and making me repeat a pattern I think I will talk about on another thread. In short, I was out of line with my reply. I was coming from a place of frustration and hurt. I pushed at the people around me to see if they would turn away. Yet again they held on.

Sorry Maca.
Take care
Mono

Wow Mono-you truly are a real man. I wish we were somewhere we could meet (all of us). You and RP are just totally inspiring to me.
C is truly and honestly mono and so much like you seem to be. I can completely respect where you are and how odd it is to find yourself there being a mono.

I hope that all those outside stressors settle soon and you can relax in your life and your love.

You won our hearts. We won't disappear either if you don't!

LR

[maca]

You deserve the thanks Mono.For not following the path to destruction you are strong and we are solid.You are safe with RP and you are safe with us on this board brother. I send my support and love bro.

Peace and love

[Ceoli]

I totally agree Ceoli, well put... my spaces are filled quite nicely thank you very much. Because I made them first, tried some people on and found who I needed...

Actually, for me, it's kind of the opposite. I've always found it hard to find people to fit pre-made spaces in my life. It would be very limiting for me. What I meant by finding spaces for the people in my life is more about not pre-assigning how people will fit into my life, but more finding ways to wrap my life around the people I meet.

For instance, right now, I've been caught up in exploring a new relationship. But the trouble is he lives on the west coast and I'm bound for London eventually. Now, normally, there wouldn't be room for him because I know I want a love that I can live with and form a family with, etc...I want to be able to have loves that can keep me company. But at the same time, the feelings are very real between us and it doesn't make sense for me to just discard them. So we're just relaxing and letting this go in the direction that's right for both of us with the limitations placed on it. It could be that we just remain long distance friends who connect deeply. We could make concerted efforts to travel to see each other often. Or I could decide that he's worth moving to the west coast for. But I can't pre-plan how this guy is going to fit in my life. I'll just have to see.

Making spaces for the people who come into my life allows me to do that.

[MonoVCPHG]

I hope that all those outside stressors settle soon and you can relax in your life and your love.

LR

The first thing Redpepper said to me after we got back to my place last night was whether I was happy in what we have and did I want to stay in this relationship. This is not the first time she has asked this. My answer is always the same..I am happy in what we have right now and I do want to be in this relationship.

I have a tendency to take a discussion or hypothetical situation and create reality around it. This is a danger of forum discussions for me. I love to share but have to be careful not to take things on. I've gotten better at avoiding this but being raw because of so many things lately I let this happen again yesterday.

There is also the issue I have with facing difficulty. It is not that I avoid it; it is that I think I need to shield everyone around me from it. I essentially feel best in a fight if it is just me. Whether I win or lose will be determined by my own actions and damage to myself is insignificant as long as the greater good is achieved. Therefore I pull away or push at people trying to help me. I don't want people around me getting hurt regardless if they want to help.

Redpepper has made it clear that she is here for me and wants to share in not just the fun with me, but the hardships. She is the fiercest and most dedicated friend you could imagine...she'd be pretty damn good in a fight and I know she would always watch my back. I am surrendering to that. I need her so I don’t sacrifice myself in trying to achieve the best for others.

I truly am happy in what we have and in my love for her and commitment to the family we have. We were lying in bed this morning and she put the question out there of "I wonder where we will be on you next birthday?" She doesn't feel the insecurities I do sometimes. I am afraid to read too much into her confidence but I do take strength in that.
I don’t care where we are..I just want her lying next to me :)

[redpepper]

yes I see what you mean Ceoli.
I guess it can be a bit of both really. I was certainly in place where I was inviting people into my life at this time last year. I was making space for sure! When the space was made (very small ones) there were men to fill it, that's for sure! After they had tried out the seat for a bit, sometimes one date, I decided if they were worth making larger spaces for and eventually becoming bigger parts of my life. I guess that is how I saw it at that time, now I see it as you do... if people come into my life I will see how my life shapes around them, but really I would do that with anyone, not necessarily another partner or intimate friend.

[MonoVCPHG]

You deserve the thanks Mono.For not following the path to destruction you are strong and we are solid.You are safe with RP and you are safe with us on this board brother. I send my support and love bro.

Peace and love

Thanks my friend :)

[redpepper]

I don’t care where we are..I just want her lying next to me :)

We are seeing to that baby... one step at a time :)

[LovingRadiance]

The first thing Redpepper said to me after we got back to my place last night was whether I was happy in what we have and did I want to stay in this relationship. This is not the first time she has asked this. My answer is always the same..I am happy in what we have right now and I do want to be in this relationship.

I have a tendency to take a discussion or hypothetical situation and create reality around it. This is a danger of forum discussions for me. I love to share but have to be careful not to take things on. I've gotten better at avoiding this but being raw because of so many things lately I let this happen again yesterday.

There is also the issue I have with facing difficulty. It is not that I avoid it; it is that I think I need to shield everyone around me from it. I essentially feel best in a fight if it is just me. Whether I win or lose will be determined by my own actions and damage to myself is insignificant as long as the greater good is achieved. Therefore I pull away or push at people trying to help me. I don't want people around me getting hurt regardless if they want to help.

Redpepper has made it clear that she is here for me and wants to share in not just the fun with me, but the hardships. She is the fiercest and most dedicated friend you could imagine...she'd be pretty damn good in a fight and I know she would always watch my back. I am surrendering to that. I need her so I don’t sacrifice myself in trying to achieve the best for others.

I truly am happy in what we have and in my love for her and commitment to the family we have. We were lying in bed this morning and she put the question out there of "I wonder where we will be on you next birthday?" She doesn't feel the insecurities I do sometimes. I am afraid to read too much into her confidence but I do take strength in that.
I don’t care where we are..I just want her lying next to me :)

I too tend to push people away in a battle for their own protection. I have the attitude that it's ok if I die for the cause-but when I go down I'm leaving a mark and no one else is going down. It can be hard to control that natural impulse. I've always equated it to being a single mom since I was 16. I was in ROTC training to go to Westpoint (got a full scholarship) when I got pregnant. I had spent 2 years training to become an officer in the military (didn't want to-wanted to be a sniper but whatever) and all of a sudden I was going to be a mom. Big mental shift in some capacities (especially since I was told I could never get pregnant due to health issues) but in other capacities-I simply rotated that training to parenting my daughter.
It became "law" that she would NOT suffer for any cause even if it killed me.

I did manage to let her suffer her own consequences so she could learn from them. But bigger things-no way.

Then when I got married I just carried that over to our marriage-and that became a nightmare. Maca needs to be able to fight his own battles. He's ok with me being back up-but it's not good for him if I take the fight from him.

On the other hand-he's MUCH more insecure then I ever have been. I just don't worry. Like with C-I know he loves me and he's never leaving and that's it. THere is no "what if"-I just KNOW.
I also KNOW I love Maca and I'm not leaving. I just know. It doesn't matter. If I regaled you all with ALL the b.s. from our past you would wonder why on earth we stuck it out-but sitting on this side of that crap-I know we benefit so much from having stuck it out and I have no regrets-but he thinks I should. So he projects his feelings onto me thinking that if he were me he would leave-so I must want to. :rolleyes: But that's NOT how I feel, not at all.

Hard work this whole relationship, love and maturing thing!

I'm glad to have met you and RP. I'm glad to have been able to read your stories. I feel a tenderness for both of you that I've never felt for people I hadn't really met except characters in books! You have both touched my heart. ;)
It's nice to have found this board and met so many people I can identify with. Keep reminding yourself that sometimes it's ok to let go!

[MonoVCPHG]

I'm glad to have met you and RP. I'm glad to have been able to read your stories. I feel a tenderness for both of you that I've never felt for people I hadn't really met except characters in books! You have both touched my heart. ;)
It's nice to have found this board and met so many people I can identify with. Keep reminding yourself that sometimes it's ok to let go!


I'll just smile...that'll say it all. :D

[LovingRadiance]

;)

[maca]

Your the best my love. Such a loving soul.

So I got on the Ok cupid thingy if anyone wants to be friends.. Macaman is the name