Life is funny

[bitterborn]

If you haven't figured it out by now this may be a shock to you.... We are all products of our enviroment, we bring with us ill conceived values and our personal warped sense of right and wrong. These were "taught" or showed or we experienced life in such a way that we came to expect what normal is. M (my wife) and I both had what could be called a difficult childhood. As a result our normal was that love and sex were absolutely two different things, both could be good but when mixed could be disasterous. Neither of us expected monogamy from the other or wanted it for ourselves. In the 12 years we have been together we have had an open relationship.

All relationships have ups and downs and we have managed to take that to the extreme both up and down, our relationship is very good and has grown way beyond what either of us could have imagined in the beginning. When we got married we had only 3 vows. 1. Be open and honest, even if it hurts the other's feelings. 2. Never run out of coffee. 3. (we cant remember the 3rd :)

Recently she fell in love, fell hard. "R" was just to be a quickie, a one or two time thing, get her rocks off and move on. Not her usual type at all. But something clicked, something fell into place and she and he were hooked. It's been good for her, it's been better for us. Remember vow 1 of open and honest, that has changed from complete transparency to discussing emotions and fear, from knowing everything to complete trust and acceptance.

We have changed in the last couple of months, amazingly another love (not another fuck) has brought us closer, has taught us both that love and sex can be together, and that love is not just reserved for two. We are learning more about each other and letting go of assumptions about each other that we have held for over a decade.

That is enough for now... and for those that are wondering.... We NEVER run out of coffee.

[Erin]

Takes a brave man to set jealousy aside... kudos!

[Masquerade78]

Reading that made me well up, because it renews my faith that it can work. I'm at the outset of something right now and there are several paths that we can take but what I want is what you describe and I just hope hope hope it could work. Thank you x

[bitterborn]

Takes a brave man to set jealousy aside... kudos!

Wow, I probably don't deserve the title of brave. There have been things that I, us and US have had to work through, jealousy is definitely one of those. I initially was jealous/envious and dealing with lots of emotions, she had her own troubles trying to juggle things to be "equal" to both of us and trying not to hurt anyone, he was blown away that I aware of the relationship from day one and was not screaming at him.

This is a beautiful path with scenic overlooks and grand landscapes. But that path is a long hike, with steep hills, muddy crossings, mosquitoes and a hot sun. Trust me the destination is worth it and when you arrive you realize the experience of the journey made it that much better.

Sorry got distracted with a metaphor. Back to jealousy. This is what I have learned.

-She isn't mine. She has never been my possession, I don't own her. She has chosen to spend the last 12 years with me and she chooses to spend the rest of our lives together. The feeling of "it's my turn now", watching the clock, and sense of ownership is akin to a child refusing to share toys and either crying or lashing out at others when another child is playing with them.

-She is an individual, she is not half of me. We absolutely make a great team. But she is my equal not my alter ego. We have always had differences and will continue to do so. A long time ago we learned to accept that. R is not someone I would have picked for her or for us. She didn't choose to fall in love with him. The cliche of love is blind is so true. By the same token love opens your eyes. I have become friends with R and realize what an amazing man he is. I have also seen M with new eyes. After 12 years we take for granted our partners, we have firm assumptions about how they are, some of the little things that they do you find that they have always done because they thought you liked it, you settle into patterns of behaviour and communication. Now, thanks to being part of a relationship that includes her, I am seeing her through new eyes and again marveling at what a beautiful, amazing and loving person she is. Yes she is different with him, but you know what, she's different with me too.

-Open and honest... We have always been open and honest. Everything has been transparent since we met.... Sort of. Our emails and texts were always available to the other, passwords are known, nothing hidden. We shied away from discussing painful emotions, our learned defensive mechanisms helped there, I tend to hold them inside until they grow to the point where I can't deal with them and either explode or go into a depressive funk, she tends to ignore or run from them. This relationship has forced both of us to sit and talk. There have been tearful times, there has been anger, there has been pain. They have been needed, they have fortified the vow of "open and honest, even if it hurts the other's feelings" They have brought us closer together which is something I didn't think was possible.

-Open and honest PART 2. Redefining with trust and confidentiality. Oops complete transparency ain't gonna work. R is her partner not mine. You know this was actually the hardest thing for me, it took accepting that their love for each other, their relationship was as authentic and as genuine as mine and M's was. Forget the term equal, I know I have her till death, I know theirs is brilliant in it's newness and the excitement is intense. But both of the relationships are genuine. In my relationship with M I expect a level of confidentiality, I expect she won't share with others things that would embarass or humiliate me, I trust that she will delicately handle all of my fears, shortcomings, secrets and failures. Their relationship deserves the same trust and confidentiality as ours. I don't have the right to read all thier texts, she shouldn't have to tell me everything, what happens in their bed is their business. I would be furious at her if she shared all about me with someone else. How can I ask her to do to them what I wouldn't tolerate? Their love deserves the same things, the same privacy, the same trust, the same confidentiality, if I don't give that to them I can't ask for it in return.

I could go on.... and probably will. But I am really missing spell and grammar check.

[Magdalena]

Bah forget spell check and grammar, I really like what you have to say, and the way you say it! :)

[bitterborn]

Very well Mag....

Let's own up to reality. People in general are kinda disgusting, they leak from all the strangest places in the worst possible way, they shed in the bed and when they aren't doing that their hair clogs up the shower drain, their breath in the morning makes small animals run from the room, sometimes their bodies make the weirdest noises during sex or when they first get up in the morning. They have moles, scars, and hair growing where there should be none. They say things they shouldn't in public and are generally not fit to be seen out with others. They hate the way they look, pictures of themselves and the way their voice sounds. They aren't satisfied with themselves, refuse to believe anyone else should be and as a result are particularly insecure. They get sick, they cry for no reason, they are growing old and afraid of dying.

Well except my wife of course, she is perfect :). But that paragraph above fits me pretty well. She has dealt with all of that and more and somehow still loves me, somehow still finds me sexy and attractive

Does this mean love is blind, or does this mean that love can overcome reality? Or does this mean that love is more than attraction, more than a physical response to hormones and excitement? Can one really love me or you even though we are human, even though we are less than perfect?

I have yet to come across a good definition for love, at one time I thought it was a willingless to sacrifice for another, if that is the best definition, then being a part of a poly relationship would definitely fit. But love or at least the love I am part of refuses to be defined. There are parts that are fairy tale, there are parts that are dirty, there are parts that are unmentionable, the largest part is acceptance. The accepting me for who I am, accepting her for who she is, and now R for who he is and loving whoever even though they aren't perfect or even who we want them to be is what makes it work.

Acceptance, like love isn't easy. Accept me, accept us. Accept without trying to force change, accept that we all will grow, accept that we will all change on our own, accept the dissapointment, accept the surprises, occasionally accept the tender little things that take your breath away and make you have to decide if you want to cry with joy or laugh till you cry.

Accept that your significant other feels that way about their significant other..... That will redefine your own love.

[Magdalena]

Wow Bitter! I believe you are the first to put into words what my heart already knows, but not able to reach the keyboard as eloquently as you. I am on my own journey of figuring out what love is and how to handle this relationship with my husband and the others that have come into our life.

Thank you, thank you Sir! Please write more!!!

M

[bitterborn]

Mag,

This is starting to become a conversation between us with lots of voyeurs. :) No problem though, writing has always been a way for me to work through my feelings and emotions and the thought of others watching does add some zing.

For now let's stay with love, I can't speak for others but it is definitely possible for me to love more than one person. It's been proven to me time and time again. It took a long time for it to blow me away, sweep me off my feet and show me that my heart was capable of way more than should be possible.

September 20th, 1990 at about one in the morning, I was standing in a sterile hallway looking through a window. On the other side of the glass was a newborn, wisps of red hair, god I was in love, I was smitten. I actually stood and stared, silent tears of love and joy, losing all feeling in my legs, thoughts of his mother were nowhere in sight. Love, complete, painful, overwhelming, incapable of coping love. I actually loved his mother more at that point, for bringing him into our lives. So proud of him, wanting to scream at the top of my lungs, to show him off.

Then the little shit opened his left eye and for the second time in my life I rediscovered true blue. All of the emotions I felt looking at that sleeping baby just minutes before were multiplied. I didn't just have silent tears of joy, I sobbed uncontrollably as my life turned upside down and every thing I thought I knew about love and committment was shown to be absolute lies. I stood in that hall unaware of time, unaware of hunger, unaware of anything but him for hours. Hoping just hoping that he would open that eye again so I could see the inner him, hoping he would see me too.

Life changing. That new love. Learning that love can be truly unconditional. Learning that love can be whole and complete, even before the other is aware, even if the other is never aware. It deepened my love for others. It made his mother and I more in love for a while.

That was half my life ago. A lot of water has passed under that bridge in the time that has passed. His and my love has been the longest healthy relationship I have had. His mother and I are no longer together, that was painful, and that was neccesary. But our love was separate from my love for his mother, and that is a lesson that I needed to learn as well.

That was half my life ago. Even today as I write this those same emotions are overwhelming, there are tears in my eyes, and I am falling all over again as I relive that experience. Even today I love that person (now a grown man), I love him unconditionally, regardless if he makes decisions I don't agree with, regardless if he doesn't call me for months at a time. I am intensely proud of him, I am grateful he keeps me in his life.

I didn't feel that same level of emotions again until I realized I was already in love with M. And then I was again shaken and learning that everything I thought I knew was again rendered obsolete. M and I were not supposed to work, we were both married to other people at the time, we both had children, neither of our spouses would understand. I was her boss's boss. What a recipe for disaster. Somehow we made it...

And... I love her unconditionally, I love her when she makes decisions I don't agree with, I love her when she overdraws the checking account, I love her even when she frustrates me so much I get angry. Damn I love her ! And you know what, she had children when I fell for her, little people that she loves with all that she is, at least as much as I love my son. Those people, those children, those humans she will love all of her life, who she will love even when they are less than perfect. Those people are part of her, those people are part of what makes her, her.

TO LOVE HER! TO ACCEPT HER! I must accept, I must love those that she loves. Those children, those people, this other man that she loves, they are part of her. Even when I don't like what they have done or can agree with their decisions, even when they hurt or throw barbs or say things they can never take back. I love them for who they are, I love them for being part of my greatest love ever.

And that love for her I have, I rediscover it when I see the joy in her eyes when a child finally sends her a message, I rediscover it when I hear laughter mixed with tears because her heart can't decide if it should fly or break, I rediscover it when I hear her tell her other significant other that she loves him and means it with all her being. I rediscover it partly because when she says it to him she holds my hand and squeezes it, her soul bared to me in her own blue eyes, that soul screaming her love for me and for the third in my life I rediscover true blue. And I realize that once again everything I thought I knew about love and committment was an absolute lie and that I am capable of more love than a single person can contain and once again the love for another person strengthens the love I already experience.

But.... that's just me... I can't speak for others....

[Masquerade78]

Once again, thank you - yes I'm a voyeur in your conversation, welcoming both the male perspective, but also the intensity of your feelings.

This is all so positive, but also the fact that you openly acknowledge that there are peaks and troughs that just form the make-up of the whole situation.

It's all very encouraging x

[bitterborn]

Mag, Masq and M my wife....

There seems to be a lot of M's. M read the last post yesterday and commented something to the effect that I left out a lot about the other people in my life I love, I left out a lot pain, I really only talked about loving others through people I already love.

I was talking about those scenic overlooks and ignoring the muddy crossing with mosquitoes. I was focusing on the positive, wrapped up in my current beauty it is easy to ignore the negatives.

"Beauty is in the eye of the beholder". <-some poet
"Love is a willingness to sacrifice for another. <- Bitterborn

Those two quotes, actually the feelings behind them can be dangerous when combined. These emotions we play with and casually praise here are very powerful, they are easy to abuse, they can hurt.

I am so very me, as messed up as any of you reading this. I have done absolutely stupid things because I thought someone loved me. I have lowered my sense of right and wrong. I have accepted complete humiliation in the name of love. I have changed myself into something that even I can't tolerate. I have been so desperate for love that I was capable of doing anything, absolutely anything to keep that love. While I was doing it, it was beautiful.... it was my eye's beholding it after all and obviously I was willing to sacrifice for it. Yeah, I've been there, so have most of you. Love may be beautiful but it isn't always pretty, love may heal but it can hurt.

Love for me at this point in my life must include acceptance both ways. No change required. Our current relationship with R has that. I doubt that I could be involved with it or enjoy it without it.

Back to M's observation of yesterday's post. I have loved others. A very big one was another M but we will go by her middle initial of V since there are a lot of M's around here. M and I were at a very low part in our relationship a few years ago, we were lacking in communication, professionally we had goals that fought each other, our schedules conflicted. We were headed to the room mate status. Two people that just happened to live at the same address. Looking back there were tons of reaching out from both sides, but neither one of could see it then.

As wonderful as our relationship is now, it was as terrible then. I felt very alone then, and I spent a lot of time alone. V and I found a common basis in Ayn Rand, writing and words, we fell in love, it wasn't a perfect love, strangely we never physically met, but it was real love, we spent a lot of time on the phone, online, we explored each other. I Loved her, it was a beautiful love.

Beauty is in the eye of the beholder, M found that what V and I had was beautiful too, she looked and saw that V was giving me what she wasn't at that time. M truly loves me, M was willing to sacrifice for another because she loves me. M began to push me away, to make our relationship more painful, more unbearable. M knew that I would be happier with V, that my life would be better with this witty, beautiful, younger woman who I connected so well with. M loved me enough even at that point that she wanted to give me what would make me happy even at the cost of her own sanity.

Pain, agony, tears, screams, fights, yells, loss of trust, intentional wounding.... all love too............

One afternoon, screaming through her tears, so emotionally and physically exhausted she could barely stand, she kicked me out, told me to go live with V, she was freeing me. She was making herself the bad guy so that I could leave and go find my happiness.

That was a long afternoon. I was very angry at her for belittling M's and my love, I could not live without her, a choice was forced on me, M or V. Life with or without M, losing the part of me that I can't breathe without, losing the part of me that was currently fufilling me and providing me with beauty.

I don't think either of was rational at that point. Love ain't always pretty. I put a gun in her hand, placed her finger on the trigger and pointed it at my chest. "Till death do us part" that's another beautifully ugly quote. But that was the only way I was willing to leave M.

Obviously I didn't go to V and M didn't shoot. V and I went painfully separate ways. It was a ugly moment and beautiful in it's own way. It was a turning point that headed us back to healing and making our relationship what it is today. It was most definitely not a healthy Poly relationship and part of that was that our relationship wasn't healthy when a third entered the picture.

Today I still deeply love V, I am not "in love" with her, we don't interact, I still find her beautiful. Today M and I are deeply "in love", I find her more beautiful and thankfully we interact at a much greater level.

Today M has lots of regret for that time in our lives, and now that R is part of us, she realizes what V could have been. It's another thing that we have now been able to sit down and discuss, those painful emotions we used to avoid were brought back out.

Yeah... it's not an easy journey, be careful to hold the other's hand, you don't want them falling off the cliff or getting lost on the way...

[KatTails]

This is a beautiful path with scenic overlooks and grand landscapes. But that path is a long hike, with steep hills, muddy crossings, mosquitoes and a hot sun. Trust me the destination is worth it and when you arrive you realize the experience of the journey made it that much better.

Wow - so beautiful and so true!!

Below I have bolded the parts of your quote that really touched me - either because I can relate it to my marriage or because it's something I need to work on understanding and accepting.



-She isn't mine. She has never been my possession, I don't own her. She has chosen to spend the last 12 years with me and she chooses to spend the rest of our lives together. The feeling of "it's my turn now", watching the clock, and sense of ownership is akin to a child refusing to share toys and either crying or lashing out at others when another child is playing with them.

-She is an individual, she is not half of me. We absolutely make a great team. But she is my equal not my alter ego. We have always had differences and will continue to do so. A long time ago we learned to accept that. R is not someone I would have picked for her or for us. She didn't choose to fall in love with him. The cliche of love is blind is so true. By the same token love opens your eyes. I have become friends with R and realize what an amazing man he is. I have also seen M with new eyes. After 12 years we take for granted our partners, we have firm assumptions about how they are, some of the little things that they do you find that they have always done because they thought you liked it, you settle into patterns of behaviour and communication. Now, thanks to being part of a relationship that includes her, I am seeing her through new eyes and again marveling at what a beautiful, amazing and loving person she is. Yes she is different with him, but you know what, she's different with me too.

-Open and honest... We have always been open and honest. Everything has been transparent since we met.... Sort of. Our emails and texts were always available to the other, passwords are known, nothing hidden. We shied away from discussing painful emotions, our learned defensive mechanisms helped there, I tend to hold them inside until they grow to the point where I can't deal with them and either explode or go into a depressive funk, she tends to ignore or run from them. This relationship has forced both of us to sit and talk. There have been tearful times, there has been anger, there has been pain. They have been needed, they have fortified the vow of "open and honest, even if it hurts the other's feelings." They have brought us closer together which is something I didn't think was possible.

-Open and honest PART 2. Redefining with trust and confidentiality. Oops complete transparency ain't gonna work. R is her partner not mine. You know this was actually the hardest thing for me, it took accepting that their love for each other, their relationship was as authentic and as genuine as mine and M's was. Forget the term equal, I know I have her till death, I know theirs is brilliant in it's newness and the excitement is intense. But both of the relationships are genuine. In my relationship with M I expect a level of confidentiality, I expect she won't share with others things that would embarass or humiliate me, I trust that she will delicately handle all of my fears, shortcomings, secrets and failures. Their relationship deserves the same trust and confidentiality as ours. I don't have the right to read all thier texts, she shouldn't have to tell me everything, what happens in their bed is their business. I would be furious at her if she shared all about me with someone else. How can I ask her to do to them what I wouldn't tolerate? Their love deserves the same things, the same privacy, the same trust, the same confidentiality, if I don't give that to them I can't ask for it in return.


Again - wow!! My eyes are welling with tears! You have realized and accepted something so beautiful, so loving, so deep in such a short time. I'm in your place (my husband is poly) and still, after 2 years - my brain understands this - but my heart is fighting it. Do you mind if I quote you in my blog? I need to read and reread your quote until it's ingrained in my heart. It's these thoughts and feelings that I believe will set me free and turn our marriage around.

You are an amazing writer! Thank you for inspiring me with your words and imagery. You have really touched a part deep inside of me. I look forward to reading more from you.

Thank you, thank you, thank you! :)

[Magdalena]

Wow and wow again. Thank you for sharing your thoughts, I literally had to stop reading when I broke down in tears. I fully understand and have had moments of all the moments you describe. Bitter you have a real gift for writing. If you would like to move it to private please do, however I think that your story is so uplifting and full of wisdom and hope, I feel a little guilty hording all to myself ;) When the student is ready, the teacher will appear. Thank you Sensei :)

[Magdalena]

Kat, I am in the same place you are. Intellectually I understand this, but sometimes the heart refuses. I met my husband 4.5 years ago and really thought about what this relationship might entail before moving on. Ohhh how I underestimated.

However, I have also been on a journey to raise my conscious living to more love and what better way to dig yourself out of the dirt of this carnal world than to push the boundaries of love.

[bitterborn]

Kat,

Of course you can quote to your heart's content. If my experiences resonate with yours and let's you see things from a different perspective, than the simple act of putting my journey in words is worth more than just my selfish self exploration.

Mag,

Your mileage may vary, I drive a dodge truck after all. I can't be your teacher, if you can learn from my mistakes you may save yourself a lot of heartache. But trust me I left a lot of debris in my path, I broke more hearts than my own. I am not an expert. I will share where I am and the way I got there but I am not qualified to show you how to get there. If you too can see reflections of yourself in me, then I am grateful. I think the two of us can be good friends, I treasure what you shared in your message to me.

[bitterborn]

This was something I wrote years ago, titled "Compersion"
as I stated before I write to explore my feelings and emotions... Maybe you can see the pain mixed with love


Idly twirling her hair without realizing it she smiled as she watched the movie. There was no plot, there was no acting and it didn’t matter because she wasn’t really watching it. She wasn’t lost in though either, she was simply there and she was simply happy. She was happy because he was happy, happy because it was cool enough in the house to use blankets and happy because they were happy.

Later she would worry about whether or not he would be coming home tonight. Later she would worry if this would change the way he felt about her. But for now she was content, for now she could be happy for him, she could be happy for them.

An annoying commercial interrupted her train of non thoughts and she lit a smoke to compensate. She looked to make sure the phone was on, but nothing more, she wouldn’t will him to call, for now it was her turn and he would call on his way back. Till then she would hold the ratty stuffed dog he had bought her one day because it reminded him of her. Today it reminded her that he was sometimes reminded of her and that would have to be enough.

Half a pack later she turned off the television and considered writing in her journal. Instead she turned off the light, held the stuffed dog closer and with her eyes open cried as she smiled. Sometime later she cleared her throat when the phone rang and answered with a sincere “I love you”. She was happy, happy for all of them. She was happy now for herself.

[bitterborn]

There's a room in our house we now refer to as "R's Room", before I called it the "teenager's room" because clothes were always strewn about and it appeared that a shoe factory had exploded. It is the room that contains the biggest closet and therefore her room.

Truly though, it is her room. Look around and you will see her. There is a rusty rail road spike laying on a ledge. She picked it up on a long motorcycle ride that was part of a good day. There is a rock from Howard, Colorado where she watched llamas in the morning while sipping coffee. There are things in there that predate me, a faded picture of her daughter in a hand drawn flower and raggedy ann dolls. More recent items such as a bottle of water that R drank from, waiting his return should he be thirsty again. There is the nightstand that we put there so he had a place to lay his phone and glasses.

There is no clock in that room. She doesn't want one there.

There are parts of me present in that room, I am after all part of her. There are parts of R there as well, he is after all part of her. But those dolls which are definitely a part of her are no part of any man in her life. There are other little mementos of precious memories and precious failures that came before either of us. Those mementos carefully placed and arranged represent memories, feelings and emotions that are as much a part of her as R or I.

I am but a subtle flavoring in her identity, R is also but a subtle flavor. Neither of us are her source of who she is. She is the woman I fell in love with, she has changed, she has grown, I still fall in love with her, I love the woman she is today.

That is her room really no matter what I call it.

She is M regardless of what label we apply, yes she is a mother, she is a wife, she is a lover, she is a girlfriend, she is even an employee. But no matter what label we use to show her relationship to us she remains M. She remains who she is, regardless of who she is to us. I think that I do her a disservice when I think of her by one of those labels and forget that she is more herself than an extension of me.

There is a huge difference between "M my wife" and "my wife M"

She is M, I love her.

[Magdalena]

I encourage you to take these writings and collect them together in a book and simply entitle it Love. I am sure you would easily be able to write a series on all the emotions. I would read them all night long.

[bitterborn]

I was asked how I deal with jealousy. To answer that, I would have to define the word and I don't feel capable of doing that. English (the only language I can do more than count and swear in) doesn't have enough words to describe all the feelings that I associate with jealousy. The quick and dirty answer is that her happiness truly makes me happy. The slow and clean answer follows:

I learned from M during our relationship that feelings are real, they belong to the person that has them, they are not wrong, they are not misguided, you can't take them away, you can't change them. The word is a plural noun. It exists. Telling a person that their feelings are wrong are telling that person they are wrong. Their feelings are part of them.

Change the word "feelings" to feet in any sentence and say it to your self to see if what you are about to say makes sense. You can dislike their feet, you can wish their feet didn't hurt.... You can't tell them they need to get rid of their feet or the relationship will never work.

When R walks into the room he becomes the center of M's world. Everything else is just background. Her eyes never leave him, she hangs on his every word, she hangs on his arm, she drapes herself on him. Damn skippy I wish I was R at that point, I want to be the center of her world, I want to know why she wasn't that way with me five minutes earlier, I wonder where my wife went. R gets uncomfortable for a bit and looks at me to make sure I am Ok, he will say something to me. M gets annoyed that R is talking to me, get real after all he came all this way to see her.

R really wishes he had her like I have her. R would give a testicle to have the opportunity to have a casual conversation about constipation with her or wake up to her snoring.

I will be sitting on the couch with her, both of us comfortable in each others presence, her watching tv, me reading or playing on the puter. Not talking but together. Her phone dings with a text from R and I get suddenly annoyed that she is paying attention to him instead of me.

They have sex, wild, loud, obviously enjoyable sex. I get turned on and left hanging. I wonder why it's not my turn.

She is different with R, it's because he is not just a lover, he is loved.

M is not a romantic, yet she romances him.

She wants to look good for R and is happy hanging out with me most of Saturday before she finds her toothbrush.

They refrain (as much as they can) from expressing their love in front of me, we all are uncomfortable.

Jeez.... we are all complicated, we can really screw up happiness trying to avoid all of that, and we have. I don't think all of the feelings from what I wrote are jealousy. Most of those feelings hurt, but that doesn't mean they are bad. R would trade me in a heartbeat. I see him as the center of her world, he sees me as the center of her universe and the center of her heart. When they talk of me, she tells him I am her breath, her best friend, and that she will be with me forever. I am sure she has hurt him with that, I am sure he wants that, I am sure he is envious.

I find her beautiful when she holds her breath painting, absolutely still and unaware of the passing hours. R doesn't know that facet of her, poor guy.

R makes her happy, I love her being happy.

If I had enough money for either a coke icey or something I wanted, I would give up what I wanted so that she could have her icey.

I have feelings, I have jealousy. They are real, they are mine. I take them out and look at them from time to time, if I wanted to and I could convince R or M to compare them they would gladly exchange them for theirs.

Instead I talk with M, we find better words to describe them, we look at the motives I assigned to the actions and words that generated the feelings. Sometimes what I thought wasn't what was meant. Sometimes I realize I am holding the wrong feeling. Sometimes I accept the pain.

[bitterborn]

The previous post is so uncomplete, I don't like how it reads and M doesn't either.

M said "I left out, Everyone has a right to their feelings, you can't tell someone that their feelings are wrong or take them away. Their feelings are their feelings, not your feelings. Each person owns their own feelings. You can disagree with what they are feeling but that doesn't make them wrong. There is no right or wrong when it comes to feelings. The thing is to accept that they are feeling the way they are, and let them know that you accept the way they are feeling, that you may not agree with their feelings, but you acknowledge their feelings. Then you need to discuss what each other is feeling and get to the heart of why they are feeling that way and not leave it at a half conversation."

I was happy when we were finally all comfortable that she would lean over and kiss him during a conversation. I was happy when he finally told her he loved her in front of me. I am happy that now R and I can discuss her as "the woman we love"

One more M quote "after all my feelings aren't wrong, they are just different from yours"

I feel better now, I feel this is more complete.

[KatTails]

bitterborn - you are an amazing, beautiful soul. The love and understanding you have for M and her relationship with R is spellbounding to me. I wish I had 1/10 of your empathy, compersion and acceptance. It's a beautiful gift you are giving both of them - but especially your wife. She is an incredibly lucky woman.

Thank you for helping to open my eyes and my heart with your breathtaking words!

:) Kat :)

[bitterborn]

arggh... still not satisfied with it...

M is absolutely confident that I am not leaving her, absolutely confident that I truly love her. It is a mutual feeling. I know this in our relationship. I know this when R is here.

M is comfortable in my presence, sitting on a barstool only in panties, grumpy and hating the bags under her eyes as she plucks hair from her chin.

M is uncomfortable being naked with R in dim light.

She loves R and wants to be as confident and comfortable with their love as she is with ours. She is scared shitless that she will screw it up.

Really I am supposed to envy where we were twelve years ago?

[bitterborn]

Yesterdays ramble about dealing with jealously frustrates me. I don't think I have answered the question at all. I find what we have wonderful and I want it. I will let it have to steep and see what words come to me. I will probably have to answer it with fiction, sometimes I work better that way expressing myself.

For example I was once asked what I would and wouldn't do for love. I ended up writing a story titled "a cup of coffee" Here you go....
.................................................. .................................................

It had rained harder than this several times during his life but Charlie had no compunction to remember those times at this moment. At this moment it was more than enough to be on different sides of a glass from the rain. The times when he still could get inside at all were worth more than all the money in his pockets, even if that amount was a bit less than two dollars.

He could see Rosie visibly cringe when he sat down; he knew she was soft enough to let him stay just as he knew that if her boss stopped by she would be in a bit of trouble over his presence. Even her pain was worth the brief stop in the diner, the brief pause of being outside. Even as she cringed he dropped his handful of change and asked for coffee and ice water. Rosie half smiled and half frowned and whispered for him not to stay too long this time.

Charlie poured in as much cream and sugar as the cup would hold without spilling, he knew he needed as much calcium and as many calories as he could possibly stretch out of his change, this was the only way to get it when he was surviving on the generosity of strangers. After stirring the concoction till it was an even color he used the spoon to fish an ice cube out of the glass of water and let if float on top of the light brown mixture.

He hated cool coffee but the last few years had been murder on his teeth and the shock of hot coffee against exposed nerves would cause too much pain to stay conscious. He and pain had come to an agreement but it was a compromise and he was aware of the price of not holding up his end of that agreement. Watching the ice rapidly melt a memory of his own grandfather came to his mind, doing much the same as he smoked cigarette after cigarette and talked forever in a diner much like this one. He had been very young then and bored and restless as he waited for his grandfather to bring the talking to end. Now at somewhere near sixty five he treasured every moment in a diner and silently apologized to his long dead ancestor and wished that there was someone there to talk to.

Most of all he wished that his wife was there, she had always had something to say. She could even say things without ever speaking, her smile and her eyes and her hand holding his had always been better at talking to his soul then her words. But she would never say anything again. It had been just a month after he had retired that they both sat down at the doctor’s office and heard the diagnosis. It was cancer but it was treatable and she had many more years to live they were told. He had been hopeful but later that night as she held his hand and smiled as she looked into his eyes she said “Please kill me now” that hope had died. But he had never been able to grant her wish, it was his last failure to the woman he had disappointed many times in the past.

The doctor had been right, she did have several more years, but those years weren’t really living. There had been drugs and chemicals and radiation to try to keep the cancer at bay. It weakened her, it starved her, and it robbed her of her hair. She withered, her bones showed and she finally lost all of her teeth. She looked like she had been lifted from an old sepia picture of a concentration camp. Still she would smile and look into his eyes as she held his hand.

They started removing parts of her, at first it was reproductive organs, those weren’t really necessary anymore anyway, and then it was a part of her stomach and her diet changed to liquids then changed to I.V.’s. A simple mosquito bite on an exposed ankle took advantage of her reduced immunity and they had to remove the left leg from the knee down. By the time they did that she was no longer in a private room, before she could recover and heal she was no longer in a private hospital and he was in the guest room of their only child.

His insurance had been a good plan but lifetime limits are lifetime limits he was told by a young man in a nice suit. He found then that everything that was important in his life lay dying in a bed and that everything else might just be enough to save her if even for a bit. He sold everything that he could, he borrowed against his own life insurance the day the insurance company refused to renew her policy. He emptied his retirement accounts and stole the money had they had set aside for their grandchildren’s education. In the end he even stole his daughter in law’s jewelry and hawked it for a partial payment on the huge bill the hospital presented him. That day his son asked him to not come back behind his own tears and he began spending days with his wife and nights with the homeless.

Eventually the routine ended, as he entered her room at the start of visiting hours and found it empty; as empty as the cup in his hands. He held the cup out to Rosie who glanced at the clock and shook her head, he knew he would have to leave soon before the manager came in; he gave her a smile of thanks and headed to the back. He figured he had enough time to clean up a bit with soggy paper towels and dry his socks under the blower. Then before he headed back to the rain he would pause and look into his own eyes in the mirror, pretending that they were her eyes; that she was still talking to him with her heart, he would once again apologize to her for not granting her the wish of death of her choosing at the time she desired. He would apologize, but he knew that every thing else that he had lost, even the contact of his son was worth the eight extra months of seeing her eyes look at him, he hated himself for the pain and agony it had cost her but he knew that she knew how much her love was worth to him, and she would forgive him the pain it cost to give it.

Charlie stood and prepared to go back to the rain.

[Carma]

bitterborn,
I read your first few posts on this thread and all I can say is W.O.W... :)

[Magdalena]

So what you are saying is that your love of seeing her happy overrides the pain felt by seeing her love all over another guy? That is some powerful love. I suppose I have the same to a different degree, however he has yet to meet someone that has knocked his socks off yet. Even so, I have watched him be enamored with someone, and the glint in his eye for someone else sends a rush of mixed emotions.

I am not sure at this point that I could stand watching him fall deeply in love. Then again I never thought I would be able to stand what I have up to this point.

Mags

[nycindie]

I recommend reading all of Vodkafan's posts. He and his wife have reached an amazing place in their poly journey.

He has said:The fact is that I did this because my wife is worth sharing. I would not do it for anyone else.

[bitterborn]

So what you are saying is that your love of seeing her happy overrides the pain felt by seeing her love all over another guy? That is some powerful love. I suppose I have the same to a different degree, however he has yet to meet someone that has knocked his socks off yet. Even so, I have watched him be enamored with someone, and the glint in his eye for someone else sends a rush of mixed emotions.


I really never managed to say anything, I did list a lot of things that could be negative and made me sound petty. That is not what I wanted to leave you or anyone else with.

I have let is steep all day and I think I have found a way to explain it. (I hope so anyway, and I am sorry M if you took any of that negatively I really didn't mean it that way)

Let's look at some couples.

Couple one is elderly shopping at the store, they walk slowly always holding hands, He keeps nodding whenever she says something. They both pretend he hears her.

Couple two is at the park, he is on one knee holding a ring. She is jumping up and down nodding her head yes because she can't force words out of her mouth.

Couple three is sitting on the porch, watching grandchildren play, she reaches over and touches him, he smiles. They have a conversation without saying anything.

Couple four is a woman running, bursting with love to the arms of the man she hasn't seen in a week.

They are all visions of love, all mushy ( M uses that word to describe me a lot) all beautiful. It warms my heart to think of them, I can totally envision myself and M in any of those scenarios. I can do that because I am in love with her. I am fairly sure that you can see yourself and your SO in the same scenarios.

The problem comes when you see your SO and another person in that scene. Suddenly what is beautiful between two unknown people and what is beautiful between you and your SO, is now ugly, now unjust, not right, not beautiful.

But the action didn't change, the motives didn't change, the feelings between those two people didn't change. The only thing that changed was that I (or you) were not a participant with our SO. Really the only thing that changed was our perception of rightness or fairness.

I am confident in my relationship with M. She has promised to wipe my ass when I can no longer do so and I believe her. I know that what she feels for R does not change her love for me or that promise.

If she grabs my ass and whispers something raunchy in my ear while we are in a checkout line. I will be thrilled and it will be perfectly alright because she is doing it to the man she loves.

To be fair, to allow that her and R's love is authentic and genuine. I need to change my vocabulary from "the man she loves" to "ONE OF THE MEN she loves" It's perfectly alright, and thrilling for her to grab the ass of the man she loves, regardless of which one of us it is.

Love, those visions, those actions, those motions, no matter which scenario you envision; they don't hurt until you are not on the receiving end. It's kind of selfish really. Yes I get annoyed, yes I get hurt, all three of us do. For me, usually it is because I am putting meaning behind actions, I am making myself a victim, all because two people I care deeply for are expressing their love for each other. They aren't trying to send me any message other than that they know I accept them, and they trust me with their love.

These negative feelings are real, but they are usually born from my own selfish view. To deal with them I look for and usually find an alternative viewpoint.

[Magdalena]

I really never managed to say anything, I did list a lot of things that could be negative and made me sound petty. That is not what I wanted to leave you or anyone else with.

Trust me, I do not think you sound petty at all. This is what makes your writings so amazing, I am just trying to understand how to do what you do.

Thank you for your time explaining things, and your deep insight. Everything you say makes sense, I would love to see you debate Dr. Phil. :)

[bitterborn]

, I would love to see you debate Dr. Phil. :)

Not me, I am not a fan of the man. I am at my worst when I jump to conclusions based on a single statement, I am as bad as him when I assign a single negative reason to an action.

I find I do much better when I have time to look at myself and the situations I find myself in, sort out my feelings and then calmly discuss them. The good Dr passes judgement based on what society feels, assigns labels and gives a path back to normality.

Society and normality left me behind a long time, I am simply and uniquely me. The labels and disorders he would apply to me, my loves and my friends (probably a lot of people on this forum) would no more help or heal then self flagellation would.

To be fair to him, he has helped people, he is intelligent and well educated. He obviously likes himself and is widely popular. There is a large part of his audience who watch to see the misery and watch him beat up on the miserable. It helps them feel better about them self.

I like who I am, I love where I am, it took me a lifetime to get here. I don't think the good Dr. would like me, my relationship or my life.

That's ok, the feelings mutual.

[Carma]

...two people I care deeply for are expressing their love for each other. They aren't trying to send me any message other than that they know I accept them, and they trust me with their love.



I love this! To claim it for myself: Butch Cassidy and I know that Sundance accepts us, and we trust him with our love. Oooh, nice way of putting that. It really is a trusting thing, this poly honesty. We've been a V since last October, so it is still pretty new, and Sundance still struggles mightily at times. Butch and I are very respectful of his feelings; we don't flaunt our relationship and actually we don't even say the words "I love you." Butch and Sundance go out for drinks every few weeks, just to keep things real between them. I know there are so many men out there who could not even begin to fathom what they (and you) are doing. I feel so special that they both think I am worth it :). I'm sure your M feels the same way. Vodkafan does seem to express similar feelings for his wife, here on the forum. You are both such an inspiration. Truly helps me when the world seems to be saying, "You are crazy to think that this can work." Loving both of them is the only thing that makes any sense. I couldn't imagine quitting either of them. I am so happy and grateful to my men that I don't have to. Sundance has made sacrifices for me in this marriage in order to spare me from making a painful sacrifice. I think THAT is "true love" :rolleyes:

[bitterborn]

I love this! To claim it for myself: Butch Cassidy and I know that Sundance accepts us, and we trust him with our love. Oooh, nice way of putting that. It really is a trusting thing, this poly honesty. We've been a V since last October, so it is still pretty new, and Sundance still struggles mightily at times. Butch and I are very respectful of his feelings; we don't flaunt our relationship and actually we don't even say the words "I love you." Butch and Sundance go out for drinks every few weeks, just to keep things real between them. I know there are so many men out there who could not even begin to fathom what they (and you) are doing. I feel so special that they both think I am worth it :). I'm sure your M feels the same way. Vodkafan does seem to express similar feelings for his wife, here on the forum. You are both such an inspiration. Truly helps me when the world seems to be saying, "You are crazy to think that this can work." Loving both of them is the only thing that makes any sense. I couldn't imagine quitting either of them. I am so happy and grateful to my men that I don't have to. Sundance has made sacrifices for me in this marriage in order to spare me from making a painful sacrifice. I think THAT is "true love" :rolleyes:


You have a beautiful life Carma. That paragraph almost sounds religious :)

Someone else sacrificing so that another does not have too. It's a two way street, or in the world you and I share at least a three way street. It's not just Vodkafan, Sundance, and I that sacrifice.

It's also Butch, and R, and Ms Vodkafan's OSO. They also have to leave when they don't want to, they have to fall asleep thinking of the one they love sharing a bed with another man. They watch their words, show what they believe to be the proper respect, refrain from saying things that may upset the one you have the longer history with. They even put the toilet seat down when it's not their habit.

It's also you, and M and Ms Vodkafan that sacrifice. I know intimately how hard it can be to love one person, I know how hard it can be to love two. The utter emotional exhaustion, the making time, trying to be equal, the guilt when you are spending time with one as your mind is obsessing on the other.

Doing this... Loving two, or loving one who loves two.... It takes faith in their love, it takes faith in their love's love, for you and M and Ms Vodkafan it takes faith in both loves. It takes faith... that the love is true enough to sacrifice for.

[Magdalena]

Sometimes its so frustrating, not being able to convey my feelings clearly. Tonight I am feeling irritated about it all, I want to be selfish, I want to be "normal" and I want the fairytale. I am feeling sentimental for the childish dreams I once held. I suppose its no different than wanting world peace or utopia. Uhhg, dealing with reality sometimes is difficult, at least for me.

[bitterborn]

Sometimes its so frustrating, not being able to convey my feelings clearly. Tonight I am feeling irritated about it all, I want to be selfish, I want to be "normal" and I want the fairytale. I am feeling sentimental for the childish dreams I once held. I suppose its no different than wanting world peace or utopia. Uhhg, dealing with reality sometimes is difficult, at least for me.

Me too Mags, me too. I am frustrated that I don't convey my feelings clearly. I want to be selfish and sometimes I am. Reality can be difficult.

You and I are different people in different situations. I can't speak for where you find yourself. I wish I could give you the magic pill that would make everything perfect for you.

I wrote a one paragraph fairy tale called "The Land of Cidence" during a difficult time......

The Land of Cidence, it is a place that everyone will end up at one point in their dreams and even more often in their lives. A place of questionable beauty that seems overly familiar and even though uncomfortable seems right. The porridge of the little bear is the food Cidence and LA Smog is the air Cidence. Tears falling from a woman’s cheek are the water Cidence. There is no money in Cidence but when tears on a stubbly cheek match those falling as water Cidence, well then that is a coin Cidence.

People look at fairy tales as beautiful loving things, almost everyone I shared Land of Cidence loved it and said nice wonderful things about it. That one paragraph is one of my favorites.

The truth is that most fairy tales are about ugly or violent things where the victim ends up the hero or the princess only after great suffering, great tragedy or overcoming difficult obstacles.

Your life, your relationship, may still be a fairy tale. Maybe you are only in the first part of the story.

As far as the Land of Cidence goes.... It is one of the most beautifully written things I have been able to put on paper. But it is a most ugly emotion carefully hidden in the trappings of imagery, it was at a terrible point in my relationship, full of pain and misery. It amazes me that no one that has read it can't see that without it being pointed out to them.

We do it the other way too, focus on the bad and let it belittle the good. We focus on what we are feeling upset by and ignore the beauty. Trust me I understand how you feel and why you feel that way.

It's too bad no one ever wrote a fairy tale about a woman who thought she was losing a husband, but after some magic, a dead dragon and a journey through the evil woods being chased by an evil wizard, ends up with another spouse and a life filled with twice the love of normal mortals. Or maybe, someone will write it about your life.

[Magdalena]

I don't think you have a bit of trouble conveying your feelings bitter!!! You get straight to my heart every time! Yes you are right, all fairy tales do tell the tale of hardship before the wonderful ending. Thank you for reminding me of this, I do live a fairy tale, sometimes I forget this.

When I look back from where I used to be, compared to what I am right now, I realize I have made huge changes and progression. But there are those moments, late at night when I feel alone and my mind wanders. Thanks for being here Bitter!!

Mags

[bitterborn]

For those that didn't get Cidence, here it is again, first original then translated to reality.

The Land of Cidence, it is a place that everyone will end up at one point in their dreams and even more often in their lives. A place of questionable beauty that seems overly familiar and even though uncomfortable seems right. The porridge of the little bear is the food Cidence and LASmog is the air Cidence. Tears falling from a woman’s cheek are the water Cidence. There is no money in Cidence but when tears on a stubbly cheek match those falling as water Cidence, well then that is a coin Cidence.

The reality version.. (now changed to past tense)
Life was ugly and had become our normal and I doubted it would ever change. It seemed that she cried all the time. When we were both crying it WAS only a "coinCidence". We were not crying over the same thing.

That was a bad time in our lives. It was one of the obstacles we had to overcome to head towards the happy ending.

[Magdalena]

It is beautiful. I cant imagine my life without him, and I knew from the start this ride wouldn't be easy. He is exactly what I need to inspire my soul to reach unattainable heights that would never be realized by living a "normal" life.

Sometimes it isn't pretty at all, its ugly and dirty, and I wonder how I found myself wallowing in the dirt again. I mean I am the one that chose this path, I knew from the beginning and had time to bail if I wanted to. The truth is I didnt want to, I saw magic in him, I saw a person that could teach me so many things that I may never get to experience other wise. I am getting exactly what I asked for.

I like to take moments when I am feeling strong and happy, to reflect on the life I live, and would never trade it for the world, I love him so deeply and honestly, I have no fear that he will leave, he accepts me like no other person ever has, I find a lot of comfort to be myself, and that is something that is irreplaceable.

[Morningglory629]

For those that didn't get Cidence, here it is again, first original then translated to reality.

The Land of Cidence, it is a place that everyone will end up at one point in their dreams and even more often in their lives. A place of questionable beauty that seems overly familiar and even though uncomfortable seems right. The porridge of the little bear is the food Cidence and LASmog is the air Cidence. Tears falling from a woman’s cheek are the water Cidence. There is no money in Cidence but when tears on a stubbly cheek match those falling as water Cidence, well then that is a coin Cidence.

The reality version.. (now changed to past tense)
Life was ugly and had become our normal and I doubted it would ever change. It seemed that she cried all the time. When we were both crying it WAS only a "coinCidence". We were not crying over the same thing.

That was a bad time in our lives. It was one of the obstacles we had to overcome to head towards the happy ending.

bitterborn this is my first run through your blog. You are an eloquent writer, a good communicator and synthesizer. I will be rereading often I am sure.

I seem to be stuck in this cycle of coincidence with both Hubs and 2Rings. I so often feel like I am in a mine-field. My dreams really seem so far out of reach with obstacles (hidden and glaringly noticeable). It seems we (Me and Hubs) (Me and 2Rings) are never on the same page for very long. So I know it must be within me, my communication problems, my expectations, my mannerisms. I just am at a loss as to how to get to the happy ending.

I would love to be somewhere that sustainably feels right.

[bitterborn]

I only talk about R in vague terms and how he impacts my relationship with M. That's mainly because he is not an internet/computer person and I don't feel that I should discuss a person who doesn't have a chance to see it and interject their own view or counterpoint into the conversation.

Enter B and C into this diatribe. B and C are a lesbian couple that with much love and affection we refer to as our sister wives. Truly part of our family, platonic, loving, accepting, more than friends. We have discussed on more than one occasion having a compound with goats, chickens and a huge garden; we are that close. I will write more of them in the future, you deserve to know what wonderful people they are. (they have looked at this blog and graciously allowed me to discuss them)

Anyway, we met them at a lake yesterday to set up their camp, and fish. Since we never made it down to the water, drank a few beers, and utilized half a dozen screwdrivers, a set of jumper cables, christmas lights and ground beef.... It is one of my favorite fishing trips ever.

R actually met us! M and I were surprised and happy! The first time he has interacted with our friends, we expected awkwardness, we expected that he would change his behaviour in front of others, we were wrong. Everyone took it all in stride, the simple explanation of "her boyfriend" was all that needed, he was treated as family. What a great afternoon.

Sometime during the day, C and I made an ice run. During the run, C asked, " Are you ok with this?" ... yes "Uhmm I didn't think she was attracted to guys like that" .... I was surprised too, but she loves him... Not someone I thought she would be attracted, not someone I would be attracted too.... (yes dear reader, I am not exactly straight).. "She loves him????".... yes, she does... "and you are ok with that?"... yes, if she didn't I don't know if I would be... "Ok, then I am ok too...."

The conversation later degraded into the sexual habits of mallards, western gulls, penguins and swans. (fascinating in it's own respects) M and R wandered off for some alone time, a good time had by all.

It's nice spending time with people you love.

[bitterborn]

Labels suck. M and I were discussing us (M,R,ME) last night, exploring the relationship, our feelings and emotions and how to describe the relationship. Thanx forum for the words to describe this. So we are in a V, she's the hinge, R is secondary and I am primary... I think..

My problem with that is I don't want to hang the word secondary on anyone. I especially don't want to hang it on a relationship. "Secondary Partner" is almost an oxymoron and devalues it to, well second place.

I have issues with the V as well, I know the points are us and the lines between us are supposed to represent our relationships to each other. But shouldn't there be a dotted line between R and I then, or maybe a squiggly, to indicate a non sexual, non romantic link of friendship and shared interest. If we got down to it, since there is another person in R's life that is not in ours, should it be a N or a Z. The best we could come up with in a rather surreal conversation involving letters to describe our relationship ended up being an H.

H, with the lines being us and the points where they intersect used to represent intimate attachment. M is the cross member that connects the two parallel loves in her life.

So here we go... I am a usually hetero, bi, (maybe pan?) non monogamous, undecided between agnostic and atheist, male in a committed hetero Poly H relationship with a bisexual, spiritual, woman and a old fashioned, probably died in the wool republican, definitely hetero male.

I don't know if I am on the left or the right of the H. Probably her left since that is where the ring is.

[bitterborn]

Probably her left since that is where the ring is.

M pointed out that Booger (the cat she once had just to annoy me) probably ate the ring years ago so it doesn't matter what side I am on.:D

[bitterborn]

Ever want to shake some sense into your partner and their partner?

Last couple of days the two of them have been working through some issues. I have to be careful not to let my bias towards M flavor my thoughts, actions or words.

We also have a guideline that we don't bitch about one partner to another. We can talk about them, explain how they upset us, etc... but don't let it turn into a bitch section. This stems back to the period of our marriage where we had an "open relationship". (Funny how that now we are poly I know longer consider it open) Where bitching about your spouse was a technique way too many people were using to get a pity fuck.

I have a personal guideline that their relationship is their's to fix and fuck up. I can't make it perfect, I won't manipulate it. I wouldn't tolerate it from anyone else.

But.........
Man there are those occasions where I really want to tell M, quit expecting the worse, quit tearing yourself up over things that you think he meant or things he never said. Btw, I am a guy, I may have some perspective into that male personality of his.

And there are times I want to tell R, you know she has a lifetime you don't know about, she will react in ways you never expected, love and pain has taught her hard lessons. If you would only ask when you are bewildered by her I could share some insight and save you a lot of grief you bring on yourself. But you gotta ask before you go all quiet and pissy.

[bitterborn]

I see people.

I see them say they love their country. They say it even though history shows that truly they have been poor neighbors. Even when someone says the most idiotic things when they are speaking for the country. Even if they can admit their country has done things to people that never ever should have been done. Even when their country abhors their lifestyle. Even when their country fails them. Even when their country takes money from them. Even when they are jailed, have liberties removed, lied to, have privacy invaded, have land taken away, manipulated, forced to change habits, have standard of living lowered, and treated different than others. I see them even after all of that say that they love their country. It doesn't matter which country you are from you have seen it too.

I see people and I am disappointed that they come closer to acceptance and unconditional love for their nation than they do with their partner(s)

[scramcity]

WOW. Sounds like the political differences just reared their heads.
I can't understand it either when one affiliates with a group who would happily shoot them on sight. I also see your points about the bf. I am the new third in the triad of a long term married couple who were never poly but had occasional romantic friends join their bed over the years. I don't know if I am projecting- probably- but I don't get the equal standing ideA the dh promises I feel it's insulting a bit to the dw.

[Lily]

Bitterborn,

I've just started reading the blogs and life stories and naturally went to yours since you were the first (only one so far) to welcome me here with some encouraging words.

Wow...... to add my praise to others'.... you are a wonderful writer... your words moved me to tears a couple of times. And as for the way you handle your situation and all the thoughts and emotions involved...... wow. Sorry, I'm not as eloquent as you are.

I dream of finding the acceptance you have for M and R. I've fantasised about broaching the subject of a poly relationship with my partner and in my mind (although this is not something I'd say out loud), I think, "how much do you love me? Do you truly love me enough to accept my needs and feelings?"

I wonder if I could be so accepting if the shoe was on the other foot and he was the one plucking up the courage to tell me that he had anOther. I hope so.

[Mattressmate]

I am the M that Bitterborn refers to in his thread..... Life is Funny.
Tho I am not as eloquent with my words as he is, I feel that the other side of this story must be told.

We have always had an open relationship, but this whole poly thing is a bit new and different for us as a whole.

I never expected, nor did I want, to fall in "love" with anyone other than my husband. Not that I have ever believed in monogamy but "love" is a whole other story for me.

Falling in "love" with R was not what I wanted. It has been a strugle just on that point. Much less telling my Beloved (Bitterborn) that I was in love with another man.

Talk about fear. lol

Good thing that Bitterborn is more preceptive than me. After all he was the one that brought it to my attention that it was OK if I felt all these emotions for R.

I was (and am) confused as to how this is supposed to go.

Does anyone really know how it's "supposed" to go?

But what I do know is that since we have always promised to be open and honest with each other our relationship with has become a much closer and stronger one.

R and I are going through a difficult time in our relationship right now. Growing pains if you will. And bitterborn is my rock that is helping me not go totally crazy and open my eyes.

I will write more later.

I just thought that those of you who read the words of my Beloved should also hear from the one who goes crazy with the doubts that pour threw any relationship.
Regardless of whether or not you want to call it "normal".

[bitterborn]

Sorry it's been a while, reality and weather with it's associated power outages have kept me fairly occupied. I did a post a story --> http://www.polyamory.com/forum/showthread.php?t=10222
If you want to read it.

A lot of people have commented that I have found some amazing elusive acceptance for M and R. Putting aside jealousy and appreciating their love without it affecting mine and M's. For the most part that's true but not because we planned it that way. This kinda of just happened, none of us three were looking to establish it so we ended up here without any preconceived fantasy of what it should be like.

R comes over once or twice a week, him and M usually get to see each other for a little bit every day and there is lots of texting and calls. I pretty much get the lion's share of time with her. She is happier, she is fufilled, it has made our relationship better because of that.

R and I text some and the three of us have meaningful conversation when we are together, we are all friends, we all have our own time together and alone.

If we were to all live together I don't know how I would feel, I don't know how she would choose which bed to sleep in or whose hand to hold. At this point it's not something I have to worry about so I don't let it bother me. I will cross that bridge if we ever get to it.

Currently though, I want what she has. I am envious of her situation.... I am looking at people with a different set of eyes, I know it's possible now and I see how good it can be for the one in the middle.

[Morningglory629]

R comes over once or twice a week, him and M usually get to see each other for a little bit every day and there is lots of texting and calls. I pretty much get the lion's share of time with her. She is happier, she is fufilled, it has made our relationship better because of that.

R and I text some and the three of us have meaningful conversation when we are together, we are all friends, we all have our own time together and alone.

If we were to all live together I don't know how I would feel, I don't know how she would choose which bed to sleep in or whose hand to hold. At this point it's not something I have to worry about so I don't let it bother me. I will cross that bridge if we ever get to it.

Currently though, I want what she has. I am envious of her situation.... I am looking at people with a different set of eyes, I know it's possible now and I see how good it can be for the one in the middle.

These are all awesome things Bitterborn. You are in a really good place emotionally it seems, and very accepting. I am a bit envious. How long have you been in a poly situation?

The bolded sentence I get. I have similar worries. And I am the poly one!;)

Mattressmate- I never expected, nor did I want, to fall in "love" with anyone other than my husband. Not that I have ever believed in monogamy but "love" is a whole other story for me.

Falling in "love" with R was not what I wanted. It has been a strugle just on that point. Much less telling my Beloved (Bitterborn) that I was in love with another man.

Talk about fear. lol

I so get this!!!! Thanks for sharing your perspective.