Reinventing Ivy

[Ivy]

So, this is my blog.

Yup.

I'm starting it this evening because something pretty horrific and scary is happening to someone in my family tonight and I'm staring at walls worrying myself sick and I need a distraction. Anything. And I don't have TV.

So, I guess we'll start with a prologue, so some of the effed-upness of my current circumstances makes more sense.

Prologue: The Pity Party

So, I was the fat kid. Like, the smart fat kid who everyone was mind-bogglingly mean to. Respected fat kids knew their place, didn't win too many awards, certainly didn't strive for undue attention, and pretty much put their skinny friends' glory first. I didn't do that. I won spelling bees and crap.

The favorite joke in junior high was to send a cute guy--preferably one I'd recently been nice to--over to me, and have him tell me I'm pretty and ask if I wanted to "go out" with him (i.e. conduct the twelve-year-old equivalent of a relationship). If the joke went well, I'd blush, get flustered, say yes, and then he'd launch into a hysterical explanation of why someone as popular as him would never, ever even look twice at a girl as fat and ugly as me.

Fun fun. Lots of laughs.

In high school, I started to do the "fat friend" thing a little--that is, keep my feelings and attractions entirely to myself, and smile and be supportive while my best friends dated the boys I wanted. If I was lucky, they'd give me a play-by-play of their blooming sex lives. Or, they'd figure out who I liked, and gently break it to me that "he doesn't like fat chicks." It was especially exciting when I was *also* attracted to the girl in question. Double rejection, plus a dose of feeling creepy and gross for having a crush on a female friend.

I kind of got sick of it. Eventually, I dated a fairly popular guy, who constantly reminded me that he could have any girl he wanted, so I was lucky to have him. I made a lot of enemies simply by initiating that relationship. I also took to winning debate team competitions and getting irritatingly high SAT scores. I was not well-liked. Dating was something I very badly wanted to do, but it just wasn't an option.

In college, I met my husband (whom I shall henceforth call Vino). Specifically, we got very drunk together after he and my roommate broke up, and we...erm...hit it off, so to speak. But we clicked amazingly well. Vino was (and is) extremely good-looking, and liked (and still likes) strong, sturdy, successful, powerful women. I didn't intimidate him, and my weight didn't gross him out.

So we got married. Our relationship was never very traditional, but it was very monogamous, in large part because we were both raised with the inflexible belief that non-monogamy is a one-way street to divorce and dying alone and forgotten in a filthy nursing home somewhere.

Eventually, we got knocked up. I was still quite heavy--I remember the OB writing "OBESE" in capital letters across the top of my intake sheet.

Our son was born with a severe disability, spina bifida. Within his first few weeks of life, he had a half-dozen surgeries.

I found out a short while later that obese women are far more likely to have children with that particular birth defect. Naturally, I slipped into a puddle of overwhelming self-blame.

But I'm also a control freak. I LOST THE FREAKING WEIGHT. No excuses. I stopped eating crap and feeling sorry for myself and I just effing lost it all. It was difficult as hell, but it happened, and it allowed me to let go of some of that self-loathing.

As a nice bonus, I was suddenly very easy on the eyes. People (of any gender or sexual preference) were much, much kinder to me. Men held doors. Women asked about my fitness routine. For the first time ever at all in my entire life, I felt attractive.

And then I felt empowered, so I applied to law school. And that's where the Prologue ends, and Part I will have to begin....

[Ivy]

Part I: Ben

Shortly after I started grad school, I met this guy who creeped me out--we'll call him Ben. Ben wore a wedding band, but kept hitting on all the women in the class. He wasn't particularly good-looking, but his girlfriend was amazingly attractive (and, incidentally, was not the source of the wedding band). Weird, I thought. And...erm...creepy.

But also fascinating. We had many classes together, so we ended up talking a lot. We had SO MUCH in common, personally, politically--pretty much all around. He purported to be "polyamorous," a word I'd heard before, but only from serial cheaters as a justification for their behavior. He apparently meant it.

Unfortunately, his incredibly sexy girlfriend broke up with him to pursue a more traditional lifestyle. We became close friends and occasional drinking buddies, and spent a fair amount of time together.

So, of course, I ended up crushing on him. Vino and I were monogamous, though, so it was one of those neat little crushes I internalized as an utter impossibility. I also assumed there was no way he was attracted to me--I was still in "fat and ugly" mode.

Around that time, he started dating E (we'll call her Ella, since "E" isn't much of a name). Ella was sexy in that curvy, coy, adorable way. She was also intensely shy, except when she was espousing her very unique political beliefs. She barely talked to anyone, but nonetheless had an endless stream of (male) sexual partners.

So Ben and Ella weren't much of a surprise, on that level. Both of them wanted open relationships, and even if they were very different personalities, they complemented each other quite well.

About six months after they started dating, Ben and I went out for drinks together. I ended up spilling the fact that I was attracted to him--along with a lot of guilt-induced tears. He confessed that he was extremely attracted to me, as well--enough that he was worried about its effect on his budding relationship with Ella. We agreed, though, that for the time being at least, there wouldn't be anything physical.

Ella didn't handle it well, though. At that point, I didn't get much of an explanation, but Ben abruptly cut off contact with me more or less entirely (I got an occasional "hey" if we passed in the halls). I spent a long time wondering what I did wrong, or how I could have handled the situation better. I was heartbroken, but more importantly, I'd lost a very close friend.

Meanwhile, Ella and I were increasingly in the same classes and activities, and while she didn't seem hostile toward me, she definitely avoided speaking to me.

And that was pretty much it, for a long time....

[Ivy]

Part II: Ella, the Beginning

A couple of years went by, and that pattern held. Then, I found myself on a long trip with Ella and a couple other students. There were six of us and one professor, but Ella and I didn't speak a word to each other--not a peep. I assumed she must hate me, that the fact that I'd admitted my attraction to Ben had hurt her, the same way it had hurt Vino to know that I was attracted to another guy, when I told him about it. After all, Ben himself had suggested that his feelings for me might hurt his relationship.

Then, the final night of our trip, we all got very, very drunk. Astoundingly so. When I feel guilty and I'm drunk I confess, confess, confess. So I pulled Ella aside and apologized to her--with lots of tears--for any damage I had done to their relationship. She invited me back to her room to talk more. She was very sweet about it, but I could have sworn she was giving me "come hither" eyes. I assumed it was the drunkenness--I mean, she wasn't even speaking to me a few hours before, and she had only shown an interest in men.

We went back to silence the next day, as if the whole conversation had never happened.

After that, Ben warmed up to me a little. I figured my fumbling apology to Ella had done some good, at least. We went out to lunch a few times. One of those times, lunch evolved into drinks, drinks evolved into a hell of a lot of drinks. Ben started telling me that Ella was interested in me. I told him I doubted it--she dated a LOT of people, and none were female. He insisted, but he was pretty much blacking out by that point, so I just laughed at him.

The next day, he didn't remember saying that. To make matters worse, Ella was extremely angry with him, apparently for staying out that late. I wondered, of course, if it was because he'd been out with me, and what that meant. Ben mostly stopped talking to me again.

In the meanwhile, I was intrigued. Ella was extremely attractive, though outwardly unquestionably heterosexual. On the one hand, I figured it could be a scheme to attract men with pseudo-bi-girl action. Ick. On the other hand, she had a hot little body, and it could be a exciting fling, even it was meaningless.

I brought the idea up with Vino. He was incredibly supportive of my potential sexual involvement with other attractive, intelligent women. Go figure.

But I still wasn't sure if Ben had been telling the truth, or had just been delusionally intoxicated.

Then, about a year ago, Ben and Ella showed up at a party together. I kept catching Ella looking at me, but I couldn't tell if it was a glare or a coy glance. I finally looked straight at her and gestured toward the door. She smiled and followed, leaving Ben looking very, very surprised.

And that's how things started. In retrospect, it was all rather careless--I certainly wasn't considering the complexity of my own feelings at that point, nor was I thinking of all the potential repercussions. It was pure, raw sexual attraction, something I hadn't given into since I met Vino years before. But it felt amazing, and for a while, it only got better....

[MrFarFromRight]

Ivy, I'm so glad that I found this in "New Posts". This is a fascinating story and I'm looking forward to reading more.
I thought that I had a tough time as a child: my father comparing me disparagingly with my 8-year-elder brother, my eldest sister telling me that I broke everything I touched, my religion telling me that I was a heap of shit and it was only because God was infinitely loving that he was able to love such an evil, dirty pile of dreck.

But you must have had it a lot harder. People can be so cruel. At least I didn't have to put up with much of that "hate the smart kid" stuff, because I went to a British-system school where each year was graded into classes according to academic achievement, so my classmates were all "brainees". And I wasn't the ONLY "four-eyed git" around.

You obviously have a lot of strength, if you were able to lose all that weight once you set your mind to it.But I'm also a control freak. I LOST THE FREAKING WEIGHT. No excuses. I stopped eating crap and feeling sorry for myself and I just effing lost it all. It was difficult as hell but it happened [...]Control freak or master of self-control? The only sad part about this is that [I'm putting 2 and 2 together (and maybe coming up with 6)] it seems that you did this for the sake of possible future children and not for YOURSELF. But at least you get the benefits.[...] it allowed me to let go of some of that self-loathing.

As a nice bonus, I was suddenly very easy on the eyes. People (of any gender or sexual preference) were much, much kinder to me. Men held doors. Women asked about my fitness routine. For the first time ever at all in my entire life, I felt attractive.I hope that you're well into the loving-yourself times.I'm starting it this evening because something pretty horrific and scary is happening to someone in my family tonight and I'm staring at walls worrying myself sick and I need a distraction.I wonder, (2+2=8?) is this some kind of further surgery for your child? Whatever it was, I hope that it all came out OK and the crisis (and worrying) are part of the past.

I'll comment on your present polyamory situation later. I've got to finish my breakfast and head off to work (and a dentist appointment: getting one major filling, several minor ones, and the stump of a molar pulled:(:eek: >>:):):))

This evening I perform a clown number for an anti-nuclear-energy vigil.:D:D:):)

[Ivy]

At least I didn't have to put up with much of that "hate the smart kid" stuff, because I went to a British-system school

I WISH they did that here. I got so adept at "hiding" my intelligence to survive that I started to see it as a social liability (I still do, on rare occasions). Vino was a bio-nerd as a kid, and got the same treatment, and I've heard the same thing from lots of other people. On the flipside, my son needs lots of special needs tutoring, and doesn't get it because he's lumped in with everyone else.

it seems that you did this for the sake of possible future children and not for YOURSELF.

Sad, but true, in a way. I definitely didn't think enough of myself, independently, to put out that much effort, though I did also do it so I could let go of some of that self-blame. I couldn't fix my son's birth defect, but I could fix the problem that (may or may not have) caused it.

Incidentally, we had another baby, a little girl, between Parts I and II. She's healthy as a horse. :D

I hope that you're well into the loving-yourself times.

Heh. Getting there. Just getting to the point now where it doesn't surprise the heck out of me when people tell me I'm attractive, but still not to the point where I can act on it without an overwhelming sense of inevitable rejection. But...more on that to come, if I keep up this blog.

I wonder...is this some kind of further surgery for your child?

Sort of. His caregiver gave him the wrong med dose and it sent him into seizures. We had a day of "sit and wait" to see if he was okay. He is. They're sending him home this evening.

getting one major filling, several minor ones, and the stump of a molar pulled

Ouch!! Not fun...

This evening I perform a clown number for an anti-nuclear-energy vigil.:D:D:):)

...but at least this sounds AWESOME. Hope you survive the first part, and have tons of fun at the second. :cool:

[LovingRadiance]

But I'm also a control freak. I LOST THE FREAKING WEIGHT. No excuses. I stopped eating crap and feeling sorry for myself and I just effing lost it all. It was difficult as hell, but it happened, and it allowed me to let go of some of that self-loathing.

Congratulations on using those negative feelings to do something positive for yourself.

[Ivy]

Part III: Ella, the Middle

Ella and I started seeing a lot of each other. We went to Vegas for a couple days (Vino's graduation gift to me), and then we settled into a once-a-week date pattern. It was lovely. I hadn't had that much fun in a long time.

A couple problems became apparent, though.

First, Ella's ability to garner male attention was astounding. Much of the time, she expressed no attraction toward these men, or even a bit of disgust, but would still cultivate their interest. The problem was, she seemed utterly unaware of others' feelings, and treated sex as something entirely meaningless.

Case in point: we went out for drinks at a bar. Within a couple hours, three men had bought her drinks. One of them stopped paying attention to a woman who was clearly interested in him (not sure if it was his date), in order to gain Ella's attention. She started idly stroking his arm, and the other woman left, visibly upset. Another man bought her a second round. She told me she found him extremely unappealing, but by the end of the evening was asking how I'd feel if she went home with him, instead of me--she felt obligated, since he'd bought her two drinks.

I had a massive emotional conflict that night. First, I was envious. I had never had even one man, save Vino, buy me a drink without disclaiming it as "just friends." Second, I was worried as hell--is this why she had been sexually involved with that many men? Because of a sense of obligation? If so, why was she involved with me? Finally, I was pissed--she almost left our date to go home with a man she didn't even like!

Perhaps more significantly, I was realizing that I wasn't over my feelings for Ben. Ella and I would have drinks at their house, and she'd gently shoo him back to his bedroom. Occasionally, he'd have a drink with us before leaving, and I realized I missed him very much, and that I was still attracted to him.

I told Ella this, of course. She became profoundly upset over it. She asked what my ideal outcome to the situation would be, and I told her, quite simply, that I wanted to be involved with both of them. She replied "Yeah, that's definitely not going to work."

She was right on some level. I hadn't broached the subject of being involved with a man with Vino yet. He knew I had feelings for Ben, but I had left it at that. Given the depth of Ella's anger, I figured I would just force myself to get over it somehow.

And most of my contact with Ben stopped after that. He sent me one final email, to let me know that our attraction to each other was hurting Ella, so we would need to back off from each other. Even when I went to their house, he would carefully disappear before my arrival. My relationship with Ella continued, and we had fun. Ben all but disappeared from the picture, physically and emotionally.

Then, a few months later, Ella became increasingly distraught over a woman Ben was interested in. For added intrigue, this woman (Keri) was dating a man (Jason) that Ella had slept with. Keri had given Jason permission to go home with Ella. Now Ella seemed to feel like she was obligated to let Ben and Keri get involved. She clearly wanted my emotional support.

And I couldn't give it. First, because I agreed, she needed to let Ben pursue the relationship with Keri. He had been extremely open and honest about his interest, and seemed to be taking it very slowly for Ella's sake. Ella had been involved with many, many men, and Ben had supported her fully. This was the first time in their relationship that he had actively tried to pursue anything else.

Second, it was simply killing me to hear about it. I was feeling an intense level of jealousy, and had no one to turn to for support. I still had feelings for him, I missed him terribly, and I was starting to feel envious resentful toward Ella. She still reveled in men's attention everywhere we went, but apart from Vino's continued affection, the only man who had shown any interest in me in well over a decade was Ben, and he had cut off contact with me to make her happy.

One night, Ella was going into explicit detail about the depth of Ben and Keri's involvement, and the intensity of feelings he had expressed for her, and I just wanted to leave. I couldn't listen any more. Finally, she was ending an explanation of the situation, and said "anyway, she really, really likes him, so I guess that's that." I snapped, "I really, really liked him too, you know." She just stared at me like I didn't get it, and said, "Well...sorry."

I went home a few minutes later, angry and hurt and very much confused. I spent several days formulating how I would make it clear to Ella that I still had feelings for Ben, and that I wanted to be able to rebuild, at a minimum, my friendship with him, and, if it felt right and we took things very slowly, to be involved with both of them.

I spoke with Vino about it first. He was uncomfortable with the idea of me being involved with a man, but agreed that it was imperative to rebuild my friendship with Ben, and if it evolved into more, that he could work through his feelings, if it went slowly enough.

I didn't talk to Ben about it, of course. I didn't feel comfortable even emailing him, let alone bringing up such a subject, without Ella's knowledge.

So I made a coffee date with Ella to explain things....

[Ivy]

Congratulations on using those negative feelings to do something positive for yourself.

Thanks! I'm currently working on erasing the "shadow" of those feelings--that is, how they've negatively affected my behavior and my relationships--and that's proving much more difficult.

[MrFarFromRight]

Originally Posted by MrFarFromRight
I wonder...is this some kind of further surgery for your child?Sort of. His caregiver gave him the wrong med dose and it sent him into seizures. We had a day of "sit and wait" to see if he was okay. He is. They're sending him home this evening.:):):) Glad it's turned out well!Originally Posted by MrFarFromRight
getting one major filling, several minor ones, and the stump of a molar pulledOuch!! Not fun...Originally Posted by MrFarFromRight
This evening I perform a clown number for an anti-nuclear-energy vigil....but at least this sounds AWESOME. Hope you survive the first part, and have tons of fun at the second. :cool:The first part wasn't bad at all: I have a REALLY good dentist:) (who's also a homoeopath) who EXPLAINS what she's about to do:), and (because I'm sub sub poverty level and don't have medical insurance) treats me in exchange for jobs of work:). [I've been dismantling a fence for her and her husband.]

The second part was MUCH better. Among my clown routines, I have one that I realised last week could be easily adapted to an anti-nuclear-energy theme. I didn't realise until a few hours before the vigil that I'd need my offer to be OKed by the organiser. (But that was no problem.) And I didn't find my "straight man" (actually a woman that I'd never met before) until about 15 minutes before we took the stage, but it all went really well:):):)... and it was being filmed, so I'm looking forward to seeing the recording.

Apologies for off-topic reply, but I'll get back on-topic now...

[MrFarFromRight]

I'd be jumping the gun if I replied here, because I've read another of your blogs and know where this is heading... so I'm going to reply on that other blog and let you tell the whole story here at your own pace.

[Ivy]

I'd be jumping the gun if I replied here, because I've read another of your blogs and know where this is heading... so I'm going to reply on that other blog and let you tell the whole story here at your own pace.

Thanks. I think laying it out here is sort of a therapeutic thing (I tried an actual therapist, but it didn't work out. Plus, she charged a lot.)

I do absolutely welcome comments though, so please, bring 'em on! I hope to keep this blog going after I've finished my little story. When things get complicated, writing it out and getting input from others really helps me cope and figure out where I should have done things differently.

Maybe my life will be interesting enough to merit it, maybe not. And if it's not, maybe I'll just keep it going so everyone can read it and realize how exciting their life is by comparison. :D

[MrFarFromRight]

Thanks. I think laying it out here is sort of a therapeutic thing (I tried an actual therapist, but it didn't work out. Plus, she charged a lot.)

I do absolutely welcome comments though, so please, bring 'em on! I hope to keep this blog going after I've finished my little story. When things get complicated, writing it out and getting input from others really helps me cope and figure out where I should have done things differently.

Maybe my life will be interesting enough to merit it, maybe not. And if it's not, maybe I'll just keep it going so everyone can read it and realize how exciting their life is by comparison. :DIvy, Ivy! Being able to laugh at yourself is positive and therapeutic. Don't I know it: I'm - among other things - a clown.

But sometimes you seem to be overdoing the putting-yourself-down bit.

I had a MASSIVE inferiority complex when I was a child and adolescent. I'm going to give you my self-therapy tip and ask you to try it out:

Look at yourself in a good-sized mirror. Look into your eyes and tell yourself:
a) I'm an attractive woman.
b) (More important) I'm a good person.
c) I have friends who do really care for me.
d) I have a supportive husband who loves me (and loved me when I was "OBESE") and a son who thinks the world of me.
e) I'm an excellent ---. [In my case it was ... babysitter and the maker of the best pizzas I know. (I have now graduated to "the best babysitter I know", as well.)]
f) I'm intelligent and caring.
g) If anybody else has problems accepting me as I am and/or seeing my worth... well that's their problem - not mine - because my worth is plain to see to anyone who (as the Little Prince' Fox said) "sees with the heart".

My therapy is free, it works (even if you can't help laughing at yourself during the first few sessions)... and it'll drive your husband crazy, wondering what you're doing for so long locked in the bathroom.:D;):rolleyes:

[BlackUnicorn]

Hullo Ivy! I find your story filled with suspense (what is going to happen with Ella and Ben?), so I can't help but to comment now because all of my assumptions might turn out wrong.

But yeah, this:


First, Ella's ability to garner male attention was astounding. Much of the time, she expressed no attraction toward these men, or even a bit of disgust, but would still cultivate their interest. The problem was, she seemed utterly unaware of others' feelings, and treated sex as something entirely meaningless.

Case in point: we went out for drinks at a bar. Within a couple hours, three men had bought her drinks. One of them stopped paying attention to a woman who was clearly interested in him (not sure if it was his date), in order to gain Ella's attention. She started idly stroking his arm, and the other woman left, visibly upset. Another man bought her a second round. She told me she found him extremely unappealing, but by the end of the evening was asking how I'd feel if she went home with him, instead of me--she felt obligated, since he'd bought her two drinks.

I had a massive emotional conflict that night. First, I was envious. I had never had even one man, save Vino, buy me a drink without disclaiming it as "just friends." Second, I was worried as hell--is this why she had been sexually involved with that many men? Because of a sense of obligation? If so, why was she involved with me? Finally, I was pissed--she almost left our date to go home with a man she didn't even like!

To me, the way you describe Ella seems like a classic case of a woman who has been sexually abused. She feels like she has absolutely no control over her own sexuality, and feels that it is her fault if she is abused/pressed into doing things she doesn't want to. Because she so clearly is unable to stand up for herself, she involuntarily sends out all the wrong signals to all the wrong men.

Her weirdness over Ben having any other relationships might be just that Ben is the only man in a long line who has respected her as a human being, and she is afraid of losing that. Since it appears you also treat her as something more than a fuck-doll, she might simply have experienced a double-whammy of insecurity with the thought of you two becoming involved and inevitably tossing her in the process.

Another point that struck me was that your interactions with Ben and Ella all seem to revolve around heavy drinking.

Anyway, really excited to read what happened next!

[Ivy]

(even if you can't help laughing at yourself during the first few sessions)...

Okay, I tried it. But...yeah. I felt very silly.

BUT, I think the positive thoughts helped. I felt pretty good about myself for a few hours afterward. I'm realizing that I start actually believing I'm attractive before I'm going to come across that way to anyone else (regardless of how well I've objectively taken care of myself). So you're right in that it's an internal retraining thing.

Vino also thinks I need to dress more provocatively. He feels it's as important as body language in sending "available" signals. I think his advice is somewhat self-serving, but perhaps he's right.

So I have two interrelated goals, then: think nice thoughts about myself, and buy shiny new slutwear.

[Ivy]

Hullo Ivy! I find your story filled with suspense...

Hi there! Thanks for reading and taking the time to give some input. It is indeed suspenseful, even for me, apparently--I passed Ella in some slow-moving city traffic today. I think she saw me, because she cut someone off to make a quick turn off the main street. We live in the same area of town, so it was really a non-event, but my heart kinda skipped a beat anyway. :(

To me, the way you describe Ella seems like a classic case of a woman who has been sexually abused. She feels like she has absolutely no control over her own sexuality, and feels that it is her fault if she is abused/pressed into doing things she doesn't want to. Because she so clearly is unable to stand up for herself, she involuntarily sends out all the wrong signals to all the wrong men.

She definitely had problems when she was younger, but I doubt she would have told me (or anyone) if something like that had happened. She definitely does act, at times, like it's out of her control--especially when faced with a assertive or aggressive men. At the same time, she's very defensive of her behavior--she feels that her sexual choices are her own and not open for public critique.

It made it very difficult to comment, express concern, or even discuss my own insecurities without it being interpreted as personal criticism. This became a big stress point in our relationship. We pretty much stopped talking about (and later, having) sex because of it.

Her weirdness over Ben having any other relationships might be just that Ben is the only man in a long line who has respected her as a human being, and she is afraid of losing that...she might simply have experienced a double-whammy of insecurity....

Absolutely, and I don't think I fully understood this until the relationship had ended. She responds to hurt with intense anger; I respond to hurt with weepiness, and I reserve anger for when I'm truly, overwhelmingly, directly pissed.

More on this in the next part, though.

Another point that struck me was that your interactions with Ben and Ella all seem to revolve around heavy drinking.

Yup, and this actually became a bit of an issue for Vino (not that he would begrudge anyone a drink or two--there's a reason I'm calling him that). Unintended upshot of the breakup is that I've cut back way back, and Vino's happy.

Part of the drinking was the social atmosphere of law school, where we all met--you get so few breaks that, when you do find a few hours, you have to pack in a couple weeks' worth of fun, so everyone drinks WAY too much (lawyers have astoundingly high rates of alcoholism). Part of it is that Ella is very, very shy, especially around women, and doesn't really open up at all until she's had a couple drinks. It was several months before I convinced her that sober sex is actually better sex.

I'll be adding the next part in a bit. Getting this all out has been really cathartic, and the advice and comments are tremendously helpful (keep 'em coming), but I'm eager to move on--both in this blog and in real life.

[TheBlackSwede]

I'm breaking out the popcorn... this is an incredible story!

I cannot fathom why Ella wouldn't want you and Ben to be involved! What could be better than two people you love loving each other too??? The notion that she's afraid you two would forget all about her is about the only plausible explanation I've heard.

[TruckerPete]

Also looking forward to hearing more. You write well and I am kinda fond of your sense of humor! ;)

[MrFarFromRight]

Originally Posted by MrFarFromRight
(even if you can't help laughing at yourself during the first few sessions)...Okay, I tried it. But...yeah. I felt very silly.

BUT, I think the positive thoughts helped. I felt pretty good about myself for a few hours afterward. I'm realizing that I start actually believing I'm attractive before I'm going to come across that way to anyone else (regardless of how well I've objectively taken care of myself). So you're right in that it's an internal retraining thing.Notice that "first few sessions"! You have to keep at it. It gets less silly as time goes by. It feels silly at the beginning because you're actually embarrassed by complementing yourself... because part of you still doesn't believe that you are wonderful.:eek::eek::eek:

p.s. I originally wroteLook at yourself in a good-sized mirror. Look into your eyes and tell yourself:
a) I'm an attractive woman. [...]The looking into your eyes is to convince yourself that you're sincere. I forgot to add that - at least for a) - you're also supposed to look at any other part of you reflected in the mirror - and any part of you at all without need of the mirror reflection - but when you say it, look into your eyes. [Arguably the most attractive part of anybody, the "windows to the soul".] You might laugh now, but...

[MrFarFromRight]

look into your eyes. [Arguably the most attractive part of anybody, the "windows to the soul".] You might laugh now, but...(No, that isn't my own eye that I use as an icon: it's a photo-composition that I asked a:):):)niece:):):) - in her 1st year of studying photography - to make for me for my birthday.)

[Ivy]

(No, that isn't my own eye that I use as an icon: it's a photo-composition that I asked a:):):)niece:):):) - in her 1st year of studying photography - to make for me for my birthday.)

I thought you just had bitchin' contacts.

[Ivy]

Part IV: Ella, the End

I tried to write this part out last night. I kept going off on tangents about how I felt, what I could have done differently, etc. It was a serious navel-gazing lamefest.

I'm not sure how much I can condense it, though, or how much I can tame my reactions. Plus, this part is recent, so it's still pretty fresh. Like a car accident, it all kind of happened in slow-motion, and bits of me were pretty badly broken.

The Talk

I sent Ella an email, asking her to come to coffee with me after work so we could talk about things. I sort of went about it poorly--I think it scared her, first because I didn't give her much detail (I didn't want to end up discussing about it over email, where there was no give-and-take, no body language, etc.), and second, because it was outside of our normal once-a-week date schedule. She was on the defensive the minute I walked in the door.

I didn't get much out. I told her that I missed Ben, but didn't define my feelings beyond that. I told her that I wasn't able to support her as much as I wanted to as she came to terms with his relationship with Keri. I told her I just couldn't at that point.

She became very, very angry, and that kinda halted the discussion. Like I said, she was on the defensive already--I think I could have read the phonebook to her and she still would have lost it. I didn't get much else out, though.

We also didn't discuss what to do about it, though I expressed a commitment to working through it. I knew Ella needed a longer "cooling down" period than most people--usually a couple days. So we made our usual weekend date plans, and that was it.

The Email

Things changed, but only a little. Ben started having a couple drinks with us, and Ella didn't shoo him away as quickly. I felt more comfortable at their house, but in a way it made it worse, because I realized how much I loved being around both of them together. They're both philosophy nerds, and they think themselves in circles, and I'm more practical. It was fun to watch them spiral into esoteric clouds of reasoning, and then playfully throw them off balance with an unexpectedly down-to-earth question or comment.

I had a mad couple crush.

Ella stopped asking for support in the Ben and Keri thing, but she didn't stop talking about it (Ben never discussed it around me at all). She was making a sincere effort to come to terms with it--really trying to see understand what they saw in each other, and why Ben was interested in both of them. She wasn't having an easy time, but she was trying.

Maybe I got selfish. I couldn't understand why she was putting out the effort to be okay with Keri, but had never done the same for me--not when Ben and I were first attracted to each other two and a half years before, and not now. I started to think that maybe she respected Keri more, or related to her more (Keri also has a lot of male partners, though they tend to be less frequent, and more selective). Again, I thought, there was something wrong with me.

So I thought it would be a good idea to just ask Ella why things had played out that way. I drafted a very careful, non-accusatory email.

She responded well, and with equal care. She explained that, the way she understood it, Ben's feelings for Keri were more "friends with benefits"--they had a lot in common, and they wanted to hook up. Also, Ben had been very honest about his feelings for Keri the entire time. With me, he had apparently been squirrelly about it early on, not directly answering Ella's questions about whether he liked me or not, and had only become more avoidant since Ella and I got involved. Ella said she was afraid he had deeper feelings for me, some kind of "passion," and that he might see her as "vanilla." She explained that, in part because she wasn't attracted to Keri, she didn't feel like Keri was the type that someone would lose themselves over.

I was flattered, of course, and for a while that made me feel better.

Then I got it into my head that the problem was that I fell for people too easily, or that I hadn't had enough casual partners. If I was more emotionally detached, or if I had had many no-strings-attached sexual relationships (I've had exactly none, for the record), Ella might have been more okay with the situation. So there was a problem with me--I was too emotional, too invested, too naive. I hated myself even more for being the type that gets passed over--if I'd been more attractive, if I'd taken better care of myself, if I hadn't been such a fat, ugly loser for most of my life, this wouldn't have happened. I felt like Ella and Keri were doing things the right way, and I--with years of monogamy and lousy self-image--was just a complete failure.

--------------------------------------------

Okay. Writing this out is much more painful than I thought it would be. I'm going to break here and finish tomorrow, once I've had a chance to wallow, eat too much chocolate, and bounce back.

[MrFarFromRight]

Dear Ivy,
I don't want to belittle the pain you're going through or the effort you took to open up to us about this. Nor give you the idea that I don't take all this seriously. (I hope that you know me - even at a distance - better than that.) This thread is the first one that I looked at this morning. But my need to get things done today, the wish to let you tell this at your own speed, and the thought that you might appreciate a small smile amidst all this, all cause me to limit my comment just now to:[B]It was a serious navel-gazing lamefest.How refreshing to find someone who doesn't spell this as "naval"!:p;):rolleyes:

[Ivy]

Oh, I love naval-gazing. Nothing better than a load of hot seamen.

[TruckerPete]

Oh, I love naval-gazing. Nothing better than a load of hot seamen.

:D

[Ivy]

I've had a decent day or two and haven't really wanted to follow up on this. Vino and I have been spending more quality time--that is, more wine on his part, less broken-hearted weeping on mine. And...I have a shiny new mini-crush! I've been letting myself enjoy it, but I've also been distancing myself so it doesn't grow into full-on infatuation. I'm definitely not even remotely her type (trust me on that), and I don't think rejection would do wonders for my self-esteem at this point.

Vino is pushing the new crush anyway. I suspect he's damn tired of hearing about Ella. I owe him many dinners, back rubs, and more, I think.

Anyway...

The Trip

Ella and I had planned a short vacation together--one night at a nice historic hotel. The drive was a couple hours, though, so I picked her up and we set off.

The first hour or so went well. We talked a lot, and there was no tension or weirdness. Then, after a few minutes of peaceful silence, she mentioned she was really worried. Keri was in town, and staying at a hotel a few minutes from their house. She was concerned that Ben might have Keri over, and that they might hook up. She was visibly quite shaken by the thought.

I had no idea what to say. One the one hand, so what if he did? She was about to spend the night with me, and, ideally, there would be lots and lots of sex. Was hooking up with me somehow less significant or less meaningful? Was I just another casual, disposable sex partner? She was extremely uncomfortable discussing deeper feelings like love or devotion, so I had no idea.

On the other hand, why would she tell me about it? She knew I had trouble hearing about Ben and Keri. I wanted to reassure her that Ben would tell her if he was planning to invite Keri over--but there had been other occasions where Ben had crossed boundaries with Keri while Ella was out with me. My reassurance would be meaningless, and, in any event, I wasn't handling the idea well, either.

We didn't really talk for the rest of the drive.

We checked in, went out to dinner, ordered drinks. Somewhere along the way, she started talking about Ben and Keri again. I didn't want to listen to it. I tried to offer a comparison. I pointed out that when she had gone home with Jason--Keri's boyfriend--Ben had been fine with it. Keri had been okay with it, too. She and Jason had been pretty intoxicated that night, and they had crossed a number of very specific boundaries together. But, the next day, Ben picked her up and fixed her breakfast, and Keri was still very friendly and understanding toward her.

My intended point was that Keri and Ben both had plenty of reason to be hurt, upset, angry, or jealous, but they dealt with it with minimal drama, and she should try to extend the same courtesy to them. My unintended subtext, I think, was that I felt like my feelings were irrelevant background noise--like I was the fat friend, supporting Ella through her personal sexual soap opera with no right to any feelings of my own.

In any event, I don't think I got my point across. The alcohol didn't help.

She didn't understand why I was bringing it up. She thought I was jealous--she asked if I was attracted to Jason or something (I wasn't). Finally, she asked what I wanted, and I told her, maybe too bluntly, the same thing I had before--that I wanted to be involved with both her and Ben, and that I felt, at this point, like I was nothing at all to Ben and just a "fat friend" to her.

She got angry, then upset. She left to go to the restroom, and disappeared. I texted her like mad and got a few responses, mostly telling me she did care about me, but that she couldn't talk to me anymore that night. It was cold and raining, and I had no idea where she'd gone, but finally she stopped returning my texts, and I stopped trying to reach her at about 3:00 am.

I drove home the next day determined to break things off.

I found out later she had called Ben at 2:00 am, and that he'd immediately gotten out of bed and driven two hours to pick her up.

The Meeting

Ella didn't talk to me for a week. I finally emailed her and told her we needed to talk about things.

We met after work, and I told her, right away, that I didn't think things were working out.

She looked hurt, and asked whether I wanted to hear her side first.

We talked, and ultimately decided we both needed to be more honest about our needs and expectations. We agreed to meet again in a week to talk more.

And, we didn't break up. Not yet.

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Hrrm. Maybe it's because it's late and I got a bit of a sunburn today, but writing this is making me less upset and more cranky. Cranky can be a good thing, I think. Kind of like when a wound starts to heal, it doesn't hurt anymore, it just itches...right?

More to come, unfortunately. It's almost over though. Promise.

[Ivy]

I'm feeling profoundly cynical about polyamory today, especially about opening up a monogamous relationship.

So, I was attracted to, and even fell for, other people. It happens. I think the majority of "monogamous" folk (in the relationship arrangement sense, not the psychological sense) experience that from time to time. But you let it go, to avoid hurting someone you love.

And even if you're deeply in love with someone else, letting it go is absolutely possible. People do it all the time, when relationships end, or when the feeling isn't returned. They let go of that feeling in order to heal themselves, or to protect themselves from heartbreak. Humans are adaptive, and can exert a tremendous amount of willpower, when they actually try.

So if people can exert that kind of willpower to protect themselves, isn't it incredibly selfish to not put out the same effort to protect someone you love?

Sure, loving someone else is a warm fluffy feeling, for the person experiencing it. For others who didn't ask for it, who have passed up similar experiences for the sake of their primary love, it's an cruel, unfair feeling.

At least in some circumstances, the joy derived from falling for someone else comes at the cost of someone else's happiness and security. If I love someone, what on earth could possibly drive me to hurt them simply to make myself happier?

I'd love to hear anyone's input on this. I'm seeing more and more of my acquaintances in poly and open relationships spout lovey-dovey, peace and happiness crap when they're the ones carrying on an outside relationship, but when their partner shows interest in someone else, it's the end of the effing universe, they collapse into depression and alcoholism, and sometimes break things off entirely. :mad:

[OshunsDaughter]

If I love someone, what on earth could possibly drive me to hurt them simply to make myself happier?

I'd love to hear anyone's input on this. I'm seeing more and more of my acquaintances in poly and open relationships spout lovey-dovey, peace and happiness crap when they're the ones carrying on an outside relationship, but when their partner shows interest in someone else, it's the end of the effing universe, they collapse into depression and alcoholism, and sometimes break things off entirely. :mad:

<sigh>
I feel close to this kind of situation.

The first part; making or getting yourself happy is sometimes not 'simple'. Expressing your essential self is mandatory for your 'self' to be happy.

And here is where the sigh comes from, though I am not going to "collapse into depression and alcoholism" over this, my boyfriend asked me the 'what if I WAS interesting in someone' question. Initial reaction <barf>, see, far from alcoholism or depression...that was supposed to be funny ;) And then I asked myself 'why such a visceral reaction to a simple question'. Firstly, that is no 'simple' question. Why...and here is why in all honesty why is struck me; I DON'T FEEL LIKE I GET TO SPEND ENOUGH TIME WITH HIM! Ha! I did it, I said it...ok, I typed it. <celebration over> I digress. Secondly, we have a long distance relationship so another relationship taking time away from 'us'...hmm, how shall I say this nicely, (oh whatever, I will just continue with the honestly) HELL TO THE NAH! And while yes, I want him to be happy and all, I also need him to know how I feel about it at this particular juncture. Additionally, I also said, it is not really possible to tell him how I would feel about it in the future but RIGHT NOW, that is how I feel.

So it is both, I feel all lovey-dovey yes. And, I have never been someone to tell a friend the 'real' part of how things work. Especially when all they see is it working. So, sister, from one woman to another; I don't feel like it is the end of the universe by a looooooong shot. I don't even feel like I need to 'worry' about it now. It's abstract, ya know?

[Ivy]

Additionally, I also said, it is not really possible to tell him how I would feel about it in the future but RIGHT NOW, that is how I feel...

...So, sister, from one woman to another; I don't feel like it is the end of the universe by a looooooong shot. I don't even feel like I need to 'worry' about it now. It's abstract, ya know?

Maybe it's a time thing for some people--they need to get used to the idea. I see Vino react that way, but then I also see him visibly hoping I never meet a man I'm attracted to, so he'll never have to face that, and that makes me want to drop the whole discussion entirely.

He's fine with me dating women because he does gets benefits, like hot three-way fantasies and the luxury of telling other men his wife is actively bisexual.

There are many, many people in the world who would give anything to have a marriage like mine. I feel guilty pushing for more openness, like I'm trying to destroy something beautiful.

What's my motive? I don't have anyone I'm particularly interested in at the moment. Freedom, maybe? A chance to explore my sexuality more thoroughly? To not have to suppress attraction the next time I feel it? To experience another round of giddy NRE? All of these are motivated by selfishness.... :(

[OshunsDaughter]

All of these are motivated by selfishness.... :(

Well, yes, and...so what? You are the only one that can make you happy. ;)

[MrFarFromRight]

oh, i love naval-gazing. Nothing better than a load of hot seamen.:D:D:D:D:D:D
For some reason, this computer is not allowing grinning smileys:rolleyes:Will edit later...

[MrFarFromRight]

Hrrm. Maybe it's because it's late and I got a bit of a sunburn today, but writing this is making me less upset and more cranky. Cranky can be a good thing, I think. Kind of like when a wound starts to heal, it doesn't hurt anymore, it just itches...right?I think you're right here: you're using milder terms (upset/cranky) for feelings that - if they were stronger - might be expressed as depression and anger.
Depression would mean that you're blaming yourself, that you feel that you are doing something wrong. Anger is when you feel that the situation is unfair. So - in a non-exaggerated way - I think that you're on the right path.:)Sure, loving someone else is a warm fluffy feeling, for the person experiencing it. For others who didn't ask for it, who have passed up similar experiences for the sake of their primary love, it's an cruel, unfair feeling.

At least in some circumstances, the joy derived from falling for someone else comes at the cost of someone else's happiness and security. If I love someone, what on earth could possibly drive me to hurt them simply to make myself happier?

I'd love to hear anyone's input on this. I'm seeing more and more of my acquaintances in poly and open relationships spout lovey-dovey, peace and happiness crap when they're the ones carrying on an outside relationship, but when their partner shows interest in someone else, it's the end of the effing universe, they collapse into depression and alcoholism, and sometimes break things off entirely. :mad:Again, don't blame yourself for the fact that other people have problems dealing with your wish for more freedom. Love (as opposed to a demand: "Hey! I NEED to have sex with you!") is a gift. If they can't accept that gift - or don't wish to - that's something for them to deal with.

As for that last paragraph: that has to do with hypocrisy and double standards. And those aren't limited to polyamory (oh how I wish they were! As much of a pain-in-the-arse as they are here, if they were ONLY to be found here, I'd be a relatively happy man. [Actually, I'm relatively happy anyway.;):):rolleyes:]) I've been contributing lately to blogs about the summary killing of bin Laden. Because the USA did it, it's just wonderful. When I point out that if an Iranian commando unit killed Salman Rushdie on USA soil, these bloggers wouldn't find that justifiable at all, it just doesn't sink into their warped world view that they're being completely biased and hypocritical. And when I point out that this arrogant bias on the part of the USA (and other western countries) is what generates anti-western feeling and leads (and WILL lead) to more terrorist attacks, their attitude is: "We're stronger, we're better, we'll wupp their asses!":(:(:(

[MrFarFromRight]

I also see [Vino] visibly hoping I never meet a man I'm attracted to, so he'll never have to face that, and that makes me want to drop the whole discussion entirely.

He's fine with me dating women because he does gets benefits, like hot three-way fantasies and the luxury of telling other men his wife is actively bisexual.

There are many, many people in the world who would give anything to have a marriage like mine. I feel guilty pushing for more openness, like I'm trying to destroy something beautiful.

What's my motive? I don't have anyone I'm particularly interested in at the moment. Freedom, maybe? A chance to explore my sexuality more thoroughly? To not have to suppress attraction the next time I feel it? To experience another round of giddy NRE? All of these are motivated by selfishness.... :(Yeah, Vino doesn't feel threatened by your relationship with another woman [some husbands would be] because he's still the only MAN you're bonking. Added to which - as you've pointed out - he gets the freebie sexual fantasies and street-credible status that go with that.:cool::rolleyes:

Is Freedom such a selfish thing to strive for??? Is doing away with any kind of suppression? (Well... yes!:p But using a much more positive definition of "selfishness" that you imply here.)

[Ivy]

(Well... yes!:p But using a much more positive definition of "selfishness" that you imply here.)

Is there such a thing as "compassionate selfishness?"

Maybe "self-actualization" or "self-determination" are better words for it. They don't carry the nasty connotation of "selfishness."

[Ivy]

As for that last paragraph: that has to do with hypocrisy and double standards. And those aren't limited to polyamory...

So very very true. There's just more frustration and anger and jealousy when it's in an emotional context. Calling something "hypocritical" implies that it involves some degree of rationalization, and it doesn't seem like people try (or are able) to rationalize emotionally volatile situations. They just react.

[Ivy]

Okay, finishing this off already, now that I'm feeling less misanthropic...

Another Email

After the failed trip and awkward talk, Ella pretty much withdrew. We stopped having sex. She had never been open with affection, but what little there had been evaporated. I started wondering again why she was seeing me--if it had just become habit.

In the meanwhile, she was still making efforts to come to terms with Ben and Keri. She and Keri frequently exchanged witty banter on FB (the source of all relationship evil), and inevitably these popped up on my FB news feed.

I was worried about my relationship with Ella, and I was still attracted to Ben, and I was very, very aware that Ella would never come to terms with a triad relationship. But I started to worry--what if she and Ben and Keri and Jason ended up in a happy little quad? Where would I fit in? The answer seemed obvious: I wouldn't.

Ella and I had made plans for a Saturday evening. Earlier in the day, Vino and I went out. I emailed texted Ella that morning about when we were leaving, so I could plan my day. She texted back that she might have to cancel. Her reason: she had a hangover. I was bummed (and a little annoyed), but mostly okay with it. Vino and I had a good time.

Then, when I got home, I logged onto FB, and Ella and Keri had been exchanging comments again. It hit me pretty hard; I felt really excluded.

I sank into a puddle of hopelessness. I really felt like no one liked me, like I was sexually and personally repulsive, and nothing more than an obstacle to everyone else's happiness.

And in that mindset, I thought it would be a brilliant idea to send Ella an email explaining how I felt. Yeah, bad call.

The focus of the email was this: love may not be a zero-sum game, but risk is. There's only so much risk that human mind can handle. If it feels too threatened, it draws a line. Ella always insisted love wasn't a zero-sum game, but still got intensely jealous when Ben was interested in other women. She's a low-risk person. Ben didn't get openly jealous when Ella went home with other men; he's capable of handling greater risk. I pointed out that, on Ella's side, there was no risk being with me. I was with Vino and her and no one else. On my side, though, the risk was endless--I never knew who she'd be with next. I explained that I was being asked to accept her sexual choices, but she didn't seem capable to accept any parallel risk from me (e.g., my interest in Ben).

My tone was not intended to be accusatory, but I didn't draft it as attentively as I usually would. She took the letter as a personal affront, and told me I needed therapy. She did tell me she would support me as much as she could while I worked on developing some self-esteem, but the gist was that she thought there was something wrong with me.

She also withdrew into her "cooling off" period, but a couple weeks went by, and I didn't hear from her.

The Last Meeting

I talked with Vino about it, and about how I felt. It came down to this: I loved her very much, but I had never understood or accepted why she was so averse to Ben and I being involved--she wasn't even okay with us being friends, without her in the room. This was making me resentful toward her, even while I had strong feelings for her. I was afraid to tell her that directly, because her she had had such a powerful reaction to other conversations.

Vino felt I should tell her this.

So, I formulated what I was going to ask for: to redevelop my friendship with Ben, and, if there was still attraction between us, to pursue it--very slowly, of course. Vino was okay with the plan, provided it went slowly, and he helped me rehearse how to ask Ella for this.

I sent Ella an email asking her out for coffee, to talk. Her response was cold, but she agreed.

I explained everything to her as carefully and delicately as possible. My hands were shaking. But...she stayed calm the whole time. I was thrilled! At the end, she said that was fine, that she didn't know how she'd react later, but she'd do her best to come to terms with it. She also pointed out that she wasn't sure if Ben was still attracted to me--he avoided conversations about me, apparently--and I told her that was fine, that I still wanted to know for sure one way or the other, and I definitely still wanted to be friends with him. In the end, she said that sounded like a fair plan. Incredible, I thought! I didn't screw it up!!

So, I asked her if she and I were going to make plans sometime soon, or if she needed more time.

And she said she didn't think she wanted to see me anymore. She said she needed a couple more weeks to decide for sure.

She explained that she wasn't comfortable seeing someone who didn't approve of her sexual choices. She said I had incredibly low self-esteem, and that I was taking it out on people who care about me. She pointed out that she could find lots of other relationships with people who would have no problem with her sexuality.

I didn't know what to say. I had thought out the worst-case scenarios, of course, but they involved her getting very angry. This was sudden, and she was icy cold about it.

She apologized and left.

Things Fall Apart

I panicked. I cried all over Vino. I emailed Ben--now, that seems like such a random thing to do, but I had helped him years before when he and Ella had gotten in fights. I asked him what I should say, and if there was anything I could do, and if he could help me at all.

Ben emailed me back, and asked me to come to coffee the next day to talk.

We spent three hours talking about me and Ella. It helped. He told me she felt pushed, and that she was pushing back. He said that, if she still wanted to be with me in a couple weeks, that meant her feelings for me were very strong, and I could feel more secure talking to her about stuff.

We didn't talk about him and me. He asked, at one point, what I had said that had upset her, but I told him I wasn't comfortable talking about it. It just felt stupid and irrelevant.

He did give me plenty of context for her feelings, and I felt better having talked to him about it.

I waited two weeks, and still hadn't heard from Ella. A few days later, Ben sent me an email, asking if I wanted to have lunch the next day. I agreed.

I showed up the next day, at noon, as agreed. At 12:15, he still hadn't shown, and I realized I'd forgotten my wallet. I live a couple blocks from the restaurant, so I drove home to get it. I was gone eight minutes. I waited until 12:45, when I texted him to ask what was up. He said he'd shown up and I wasn't there, so he'd left.

I got the sense that he didn't want to have lunch with me, but I was confused--after all, he had asked me. So, I asked him, point blank, if he actually wanted to have lunch with me.

He sent back a very roundabout, vague email explaining that maybe it would be better if we didn't see each other in person for a while. He said emails, etc., would be fine, but under the circumstances, we should put a hold on face-to-face interactions.

It was weird, and sudden. He had invited me out, less than 24 hours before.

He also said I had a habit of "creating drama" in relationships. In explaining this, he used a couple phrases that were identical to the email Ella had sent me telling me I needed therapy. It was obvious they had talked about it, and had come to the mutual conclusion that there was something wrong with me.

So, I sent Ella an email asking if she'd decided yet. She responded that she'd been thinking about it, but didn't offer a conclusion. So, I called it off. I told her that I'd like to be friends eventually. Her reply was vague: "the relationship wasn't working" but she "wouldn't be against repairing things later on."

Finally, she told me she was going to try to stay out of things between me and Ben. She said she may not always be successful, but that was trying.

I wanted to believe she was sincere about that, but with things over between me and her, there was really no way anything would work between me and Ben--even an email-only friendship would be awkward.

So that was that. The End, except that I still think about it far too often, I still miss both of them, and I frequently wonder if there is indeed something very wrong with me. :(

[BlackUnicorn]

...I still miss both of them, and I frequently wonder if there is indeed something very wrong with me. :(

Poor, poor Ivy.

Yes, there is something wrong with you - you have a low self-esteem and an internal tape that keeps on playing the same stupid old message over and over again. The tape leads you to interpret other people's actions and words in a manner that is consistent with the tape, regardless of what was actually said and done. The biggest thing that is wrong with you is that you always think there is something wrong with you. Like with Ella - to the degree she is not in control of her sexuality the reason is not her wild sex appeal (which you think you lack) or you being a prude or she having a non-committal attitude to lovers (you) but her quite likely having experienced severe denial of control of her sexuality at some point in her life. This is not on you, cannot be cured by you, and should never have anything to do with your own self-image.

What made it possible for you to overcome your insecurity and self-blame with Vino? Are these experiences you could transfer to other relationships? Have you had therapy in the past? Self-help and meditation can work wonders too (for me it has) if you can't afford or are not comfortable with therapy.

I am rooting for you, Ella and Ben! And Vino too!

[Ivy]

Poor, poor Ivy.

Ack, it all sounds so whiny, doesn't it? I start writing it out, and then I start to wallow in it. :(

Yes, there is something wrong with you - you have a low self-esteem and an internal tape that keeps on playing the same stupid old message over and over again....The biggest thing that is wrong with you is that you always think there is something wrong with you.

It is self-reinforcing. I've had very few relationships, so when something goes wrong in one, I end up trying to figure out how I could have prevented it. Instead of just admitting that sometimes things don't work out, I end up blaming myself--I was too needy, too emotionally invested, or just too undesirable. Objectively, I can see this, but when I'm feeling everything crumble around me, it's difficult to keep that perspective.

I start searching for a problem I can "fix," and the only problem I can easily find (or potentially fix) is me.

What made it possible for you to overcome your insecurity and self-blame with Vino?

Vino was easy, at least while we were monogamous. We just hit it off, and we were both (at the time) willing to commit to monogamy. He's always been fine with the idea of me dating women, though--I told him very frankly I was bisexual when we first met, I just never had the opportunity to act on it before Ella.

He claims he could come to terms with me dating men, but at this point, that's only theoretical--I've been cut off from most of my former social circle, I've been feeling too withdrawn to meet anyone new, and the men at my work are very monogamously married (I don't think I'd want to date a coworker, anyway). So he hasn't been put in that position yet. We haven't had to navigate it.

This has really been a bit of a trainwreck for my self-esteem, and since the breakup, my sex life with Vino has kind of faded. I feel gross even getting nekkid with him...and then I feel guilty, too. Blecch. I've never felt like that around him before, but we're working on it. Definitely not a solved problem yet, though.

Have you had therapy in the past? Self-help and meditation can work wonders too (for me it has) if you can't afford or are not comfortable with therapy.

I have had therapy in the past, for stress (I was making myself physically ill worrying about my grades and career. Gradschoolfail.) I did try therapy again, but the "poly-friendly" therapist was steering me back toward monogamy--suggesting nonexistent problems between me and Vino to explain why I wanted to date other people.

Right now I'm trying self-help, but it's becoming an obsession--I'm reading Opening Up, and a book on how to flirt, a couple other books, and a half-dozen web sites, blogs, and forums. I know myself, and I'll keep reading for the next decade, because then, ten years from now, I might actually be prepared to successfully interact with real live human beings!

I am rooting for you, Ella and Ben! And Vino too!

Thanks. Kind words really help. :)

[OshunsDaughter]

Wow, you all couldn't have a 'sit down' to talk. Everyone go out to dinner, a neutral spot, maybe in the back room of a restaurant? Just saying ;)

[SNeacail]

Too many e-mails and not enough face to face discussions and too many assumptions based on non-communication. A lot of this sounds very familiar to what my husband and I are struggling with and 90% of it is how we communicate or don't communicate with each other and each of us making assumptions based on stuff NOT said.

I guess I don't understand why in the day of cell phones, why you wouldn't have texted or called Ben if he was running late, and even more so when you realized you had to leave to get your wallet? On the same note, why didn't he didn't call/text you when he got there and you weren't there? To me this would be common courtesy.

[Ivy]

Wow, you all couldn't have a 'sit down' to talk. Everyone go out to dinner, a neutral spot, maybe in the back room of a restaurant? Just saying ;)

Believe me, I wish we could have. It would have been uncomfortable, but I think it would have calmed a lot of fears. But by the time I got the guts to directly discuss what I was hoping for--even with Ella alone--it was over. And frankly, I'm not sure Ella would have consented to a discussion like that even on a good day, and there's no way Ben would have gone along with it if he sensed Ella was at all unhappy with the idea.

At this point, I think it's just too late--I couldn't do the wait-and-see sorta-breakup, so I finally just called it. That was a month ago, and I haven't spoken to either of them since. And even if we did speak, in our last email conversation, Ella expressed a desire not to discuss what went wrong (she didn't feel it would help anything), which puts a pretty solid end to the conversation.

[Ivy]

Too many e-mails and not enough face to face discussions and too many assumptions based on non-communication. A lot of this sounds very familiar to what my husband and I are struggling with and 90% of it is how we communicate or don't communicate with each other and each of us making assumptions based on stuff NOT said.

Very true. I've noticed that when something isn't communicated, I start to get very afraid of the reasons why nothing's been communicated--and, of course, I assume those reasons must be very very bad. If someone is avoiding giving you bad news, you don't want to call them up and ask what the bad news is, because it's just going to hurt like hell.

So, for instance, the lunch thing. When he was fifteen minutes late, I started thinking he was going to stand me up entirely because, naturally, Ella wouldn't want him around me. (Another friend in this circle--one who was occasionally sexually involved with Ella--had stood me up for lunch a couple weeks before, after he found out there was tension between Ella and me, and that still stung).

So, when I realized I had forgotten my wallet, I figured I'd go get it, and if he wasn't there when I got back, I'd text him. The quick trip home and back would give me a moment to think out what I would say, without sounding scared or snarky.

When I got back and it had only been eight minutes, I looked around for him a little, then took a seat. I drafted a text, then decided it sounded bitter, and deleted it. Then I started to think I was overreacting, that he might still show up, so I let myself wait until 12:45, at which point I texted him.

He did say he thought *I* had stood *him* up, but at that point I was hurt that he had only stayed for five minutes before giving up on me, and I was waiting for the inevitable rejection because of the state of things with Ella.

To me this would be common courtesy.

...And, in light of the effed-up, bizarre psychology that surrounds breakups, metamours, hurt feelings, and unspoken fears, common courtesy pretty much goes out the window. :(

[Ivy]

Oh, and a disclaimer to all this:

I'm focusing on the worst here, because I'm trying to figure out where it went wrong, and if there's anything I could do differently.

Ella and I had an amazing amount of fun, most of the time. We had an incredible time in Vegas. I think I got her to relax quite a bit (she's typically very type-A), and I know I got her to feel a little more open with compassion and emotion. At one point, after Ben's divorce was finalized (see first entry re: creepy guy with wedding ring), they were both talking (separately) about how much they wanted to get married, but didn't think the other loved them that much, so I gently nudged Ella to propose to Ben, and helped her make the arrangements for it (he said yes; they're getting married in a couple months). And, just being around either or both of them made me very happy. Most of the time. I miss them, but thinking about that too much does make it much, much worse.

Being angry feels better.

[Ivy]

Goddamn freaking bloody hell on toast.

I have this friend who's amazing. The type who dances until dawn, drinks fluffy fruity cocktails with umbrellas, smiles at absolutely everyone all the time, and is just all-around great to be around. She does know about my sexuality, but it really doesn't come up in conversation. She's looking for Mr. Right to settle down and have kiddos, so, in the past, I've mostly just helped her scope out husband material, and we have lots of fun doing it.

So, we've been talking about going out, since we'd almost lost touch and we've both been feeling a little cut off from everyone since graduation. We decided to make plans.

Who does she invite out of effing NOWHERE?

Ella.

Because she knows that Ella and I are good friends, and the more the merrier!! :D :D :D

In the two hours it took me to come up with a response, Ella emailed, apologizing for the awkwardness.

Bugger, FML, etc.

[BlackUnicorn]

Hmm, I see amazing potential in here.

[MrFarFromRight]

Originally Posted by MrFarFromRight
(Well... yes!:p But using a much more positive definition of "selfishness" that you imply here.)Is there such a thing as "compassionate selfishness?"

Maybe "self-actualization" or "self-determination" are better words for it. They don't carry the nasty connotation of "selfishness."I meant "looking out for yourself" (without damaging others). So the 2 terms you mention are valid, but I would add self-caring, self-loving, self-respecting.

I'm certainly NOT a proponent of "selfless" love or "sacrificing for love".
I heartily (yet again, but on another thread [this makes the 3rd time on polyamory threads]) recommend reading “The Princess Who Stood On Her Own Two Feet” by Jeanne Desy (http://www.tallwomen.org/contents/princess.htm). But there's a typo in the story, so read my warning about that here (http://www.polyamory.com/forum/showthread.php?p=67846&highlight=Desy#post67846).

[MrFarFromRight]

Due to bungling ineptitude:o:rolleyes:, I edited, then saved the edited version separately. See below.

[MrFarFromRight]

Ivy, as I've written to you before, I don't want to hand down a sentence without reading the other parties' point of view, but - judging by what you have written - I'll make certain comments.

OK, to start with: If Ben and Ella (who both have got close to / loved you) have BOTH said that you have a problem with low self-esteem, then I would certainly recommend that you consider that as a potential major factor in all this.

[B]HOWEVER [Is there any other way that I can highlight that word even further, without using coloured letters - after I've virtually promised other members that I won't do so?:o]: You're my friend on here, Ivy, you write with intelligence and what seems like a sincere wish to reach an understanding of all this. Unless I'm very much mistaken, you're not lying to us, you're trying to be honest with yourself (and - I assume - with Ben and Ella), and you're [you were] trying to communicate with them.

On the other hand - although I don't want to attribute any malicious intent to deceive to either of them - I can only too well imagine why Ben and Ella (each for their own, different, reason) weren't putting that much energy into being totally open with you. [Remember that this is my imagination at work here, but here goes:] Ella because of past hurt, present hurt pride, fear of future hurt. Ben because of unadmitted [to himself] shame at having been willing to give up his friendship with you in order to keep the peace (and - dare I suggest? - keep the piece) with Ella.

[Coincidentally, there's a story written by a friend of mine which contains the following 4 elements: a character named Ella, a growth away from a lack of self-esteem, a character willing to hide a friendship in order to maintain certain other benefits, an honest attempt to be honest - even when painful: "Ella Of The Cinders (http://jimmsfairytales.com/ella.pdf)" by Jimmy Hollis i Dickson. It contains the following quote:
“I'm not willing to wait around for [I]anybody to notice me. I’m not willing to wait until I’m acceptable. I’ve learned that I’m too important for that. Oh, I’m important to you, I’m important to Maeve; but that’s not what I’m talking about. Maeve helped me find this out, and you’ve helped as well. But if I lost the both of you, I'd still have learned my lesson: I'm important to myself. Too important to hide in any corners until the respectable people are out of the way, like I’ve been doing with Ernestine, Gladys, and Primrose. I want to be proud of all my friends. And I want them to be proud of me... I can’t offer you an easier choice than your father has. I’m sorry..."
It now occurs to me that there's another point in common with your story: the importance of appearances in making an impression on shallow people.]

As I suggested on your other thread, if you talk to Ben and this turns out to be true... walk away with your held held high. "Friends" like that you do NOT need. If his friendship means enough to you, I would recommend talking openly with him at least one more time before you give his friendship up for lost.

Ariakis uses a signature that includes a wonderful quote from George Bernard Shaw: “The single biggest problem in communication is the illusion that it has taken place.”

Further comment from me?And she said she didn't think she wanted to see me anymore. She said she needed a couple more weeks to decide for sure.

She explained that she wasn't comfortable seeing someone who didn't approve of her sexual choices. She said I had incredibly low self-esteem, and that I was taking it out on people who care about me. She pointed out that she could find lots of other relationships with people who would have no problem with her sexuality.

I didn't know what to say. I had thought out the worst-case scenarios, of course, but they involved her getting very angry. This was sudden, and she was icy cold about it.Very often, when we don't want to deal with our own shit, we put the blame for things not working out on others. The "icy cold" is - forgive my stating the obvious - chilling. Let's zoom in here:She said I had incredibly low self-esteem, and that I was taking it out on people who care about me.I've been looking for one of the polyamory.com smileys with its eyebrows about 36cm above the top of the head, but they don't offer this option, so I've got to make do with::eek:!!!:eek:Talk about pots, kettles, and the colour black! (And what the therapists call "projection".)

[Ivy]

If his friendship means enough to you, I would recommend talking openly with him at least one more time before you give his friendship up for lost.

I've been thinking about this a lot.

In my last (email) conversations with Ella, we agreed that maybe we could be friends. Eventually. Depending on how we felt. My interpretation of that was either (1) she was trying to be polite and not burn bridges, especially since we work in the same industry in the same city, or (2) she actually might want to be friends eventually, but isn't really ready to go down that road yet. I'm definitely at (2), so that agreement is fine with me. Maybe eventually we will be friends...but not yet. And if not, I'm okay with that too.

(On that note, I backed out of going out with my crazy-happy-husband-hunting friend. I didn't want to put her in the middle of an awkward situation like that--she doesn't know that Ella and I were involved.)

With Ben, though, I've been feeling lately like it's a lost cause. I feel really awful admitting this, but I felt more of a "bond" with him, when we were on good terms anyway--probably because we had more in common, but also because we started as nothing more than friends, and then feelings developed later. With Ella, it was attraction and amazing sex, and then feelings developed from that. So letting go of my friendship with Ben hurts more, and there's much more regret--if only I had suppressed my attraction to him early on, we might still be good friends.

But I also know that's not realistic. It still would have hurt to try not to feel something that strong. Ella still would have been jealous of him spending time with me, even if we had never been attracted to each other at all. If she found herself in the same situation, she would have become sexually involved, as she does with most of her male friends. So she would have attributed that background motive to even the most innocuous friendship between Ben and me.

And now, Ella and I have a messy, painful history. Being friends with me would mean facing Ella's potentially intense jealousy on two levels. If I've realized anything about Ben, it's that he's very loyal to Ella, and willing to sacrifice a lot to make her happy.

I may be building a worst-case scenario here (I tend to do that), but if I sought a friendship with him, I think he'd be vague and dodgy about it. He wouldn't want to hurt me, but he also wouldn't want to upset Ella, so he wouldn't do either.

The last email he sent me, he commented that your friends care about you, even when they take a few steps back. I think he intended for me to understand that as an explanation of his feelings. It hurts--people who take a few steps back seldom return--but it might be time to accept it. :(

[MrFarFromRight]

I've been thinking about this a lot.Yeah, you do think a lot, don't you? That isn't a criticism! Better you should think than act stupidly. But - as the Spanish say - "No te comas el coco." [Don't eat your own head.]I may be building a worst-case scenario here (I tend to do that), but if I sought a friendship with him, I think he'd be vague and dodgy about it. He wouldn't want to hurt me, but he also wouldn't want to upset Ella, so he wouldn't do either.

The last email he sent me, he commented that your friends care about you, even when they take a few steps back. I think he intended for me to understand that as an explanation of his feelings. It hurts--people who take a few steps back seldom return--but it might be time to accept it. :(At least the present situation means that YOU don't have to decide to maintain distance from Ben in order to maintain your relationship with Ella. This should feel alleviating (but I bet it doesn't, does it?:() If Ella insinuates that your closeness to Ben is going to make it unlikely that there'll be a resumption of her friendship towards you, then that's the definitive proof. People who use emotional blackmail of that kind are NOT worth having as friends!

My advice (worth about one butter bean, but I'll let you have it completely free of charge):
1) Read both stories linked in my last comments.
2) Send the links to Ben and ask him to read the stories, too.
3) Use the stories and the conversation at the end of the 2nd one as a springboard in a talk to Ben about what true friendship is all about. Tell him that his friendship means a lot to you... but not enough to swallow a pile of SHIT.
4) Find some [other] friends who treat you and your friendship as the treasures that you are.
5) Don't allow others' emotional inadequacies undermine your sense of worth!
6) Keep looking in that mirror... and SMILE at yourself, goddammit!
7) If all else fails, plan a visit to Spain.:):):):rolleyes::o:o

[nycindie]

Ivy, I am amazed that you put so much effort in trying to make something work with those two. To me, it seems, neither one ever really made the same effort nor had much consideration for you. I also question whether it was ever really love you felt for Ella, or was it just a love of solving problems? Or a need to be wanted? Or... I'm not sure.

I think it is time you move on and be open to wonderfulness with other people who don't play games and then try to convince you there's something wrong with you. You deserve to be treated well and respected.

[Ivy]

"No te comas el coco." [Don't eat your own head.]

I think I need that tattooed on my wrist.

If Ella insinuates that your closeness to Ben is going to make it unlikely that there'll be a resumption of her friendship towards you, then that's the definitive proof. People who use emotional blackmail of that kind are NOT worth having as friends!

I don't think there will be a resumption of friendship with either of them, regardless of the circumstances. Ben isn't comfortable being around me if Ella and I aren't on good terms, and the idea of me being involved with Ben, even on a platonic level, is to upsetting for Ella to cope with. Unfortunately, I don't think that's something that will improve with time and honesty, either.

I did read both stories--very enlightening!--but I don't think I'm going to start any conversations, with either of them. It can't go anywhere good, at least not for me.

I'm still struggling to climb out of this pit of low self-esteem, and being told that my low self-esteem is the cause of everyone's collective problems only makes me feel worse about myself. I can't figure out how to heal that without removing myself entirely from the situation.

6) Keep looking in that mirror... and SMILE at yourself, goddammit!

This I will do, however. At least until I fall over giggling.

7) If all else fails, plan a visit to Spain.:):):):rolleyes::o:o

I wish. My college degrees are in Art History and Medieval Studies. I wouldn't want to leave.

[Ivy]

Ivy, I am amazed that you put so much effort in trying to make something work with those two. To me, it seems, neither one ever really made the same effort nor had much consideration for you.

There were bright spots that are probably overshadowed in my retelling. I do put a premium on maintaining relationships, though. On the one hand, it means my healthy relationships survive rough patches and endure for the long term. On the other hand, it usually takes me a long time to admit that a relationship was fundamentally flawed, for reasons that I had no control over. Control freak fail.

I also question whether it was ever really love you felt for Ella, or was it just a love of solving problems? Or a need to be wanted? Or... I'm not sure.

There was definite, powerful sexual attraction, and I cared (and still care) about her very much. Yes, even "loved" her, though I wonder now how much of it was actually romantic love and how much was simply platonic love coupled with a desire to "nurture" (this is probably what you mean by solving problems).

I've never done the FWB thing before, so I'm not sure I was prepared to differentiate between those feelings. She has a whole lot of FWBs, and she seemed to consider our relationship as something more significant...and, in retrospect, it felt really good to stand out from the crowd.

I think it is time you move on and be open to wonderfulness with other people who don't play games and then try to convince you there's something wrong with you. You deserve to be treated well and respected.

:D

I'm trying. I feel really socially isolated right now, but that will improve with time.

I tried out for a banked-track roller derby league right after the breakup and made it (I'd only skated flat before), so I'm meeting lots of interesting people who yell at me to SKATE FASTER DAMMIT and GET MY ASS BACK ON THE TRACK.

At least my new friends prefer physical pain over psychological.

[Ivy]

Also (and this sucks to admit), Ben and Ella are the only people, apart from Vino, who've openly shown any attraction to me in more than a decade. I have friends who've told me I'm objectively attractive, or who do the friendly-flirt thing, but they're also quick to disclaim any actual interest.

So, it really feels like that was as good as it's ever going to get, and it'll be at least another decade before anyone shows interest. I KNOW that's my low self-esteem and nasty past experiences talking, so please don't rip into me for it! But it's still incredibly difficult to move past that feeling, real or imagined.

[nycindie]

I'm still struggling to climb out of this pit of low self-esteem, and being told that my low self-esteem is the cause of everyone's collective problems only makes me feel worse about myself.

Okay, people harping at you to fix your low self esteem aren't helping much. the more you hear that, the more you make it your mantra ("I have low self-esteem and need to fix it"), the more you believe it. Fuck that! Toss that old tape out.

Both Ella and Ben sound extremely immature and into drama. How dare they put you down for any reason!


Also (and this sucks to admit), Ben and Ella are the only people, apart from Vino, who've openly shown any attraction to me in more than a decade. I have friends who've told me I'm objectively attractive, or who do the friendly-flirt thing, but they're also quick to disclaim any actual interest.I would safely hazard a guess that there were others interested but you just didn't see it through your Nobody's-ever-attracted-to-me blinders.

So, it really feels like that was as good as it's ever going to get, and it'll be at least another decade before anyone shows interest. I KNOW that's my low self-esteem and nasty past experiences talking, so please don't rip into me for it! But it's still incredibly difficult to move past that feeling, real or imagined.

We live in the atmosphere of our beliefs. If you don't like the atmosphere, change your beliefs. Really and truly, you can stop identifying yourself as someone with low self-esteem, who never attracts anyone. You have to be vigilant to nip those thoughts in the bud when they pop up and tell yourself to stop making up such bad shit about you. Replace that with "I am a confident, attractive woman with a lot to offer." If you tend to shlump around, work on your posture. If there are things you do that make you feel confident, hang around a crowd where that is appreciated.

And remember this, and this is important: We human beings always pick up the unconscious messages of others, like radio waves. If there are people you hang out with who portray an uber-cool and confident vibe and you feel insecure and like your esteem is in the toilet when you're around them, know that you are actually detecting how they really feel about themselves underneath their fake, manufactured bravado. Truly confident, secure people who really have their shit together inspire those around them to feel the same. Honestly, that is the truth. We feel good about ourselves when we hang with others who feel good about themselves. If we feel shitty around people who appear to have it together, then you know they are faking it and what you are sensing is their insecurities.

[Ivy]

Odd conversation with Vino last night.

I brought up the topic of whether it would help or hurt to try dating right now. It made him shifty, so I asked why. The gist is that he's watched how upset this has made me, and doesn't really understand why I would want to bother starting another relationship with anyone else. He says it's exhausting.

To be fair, he's pretty worn out from this, too. I've been improving, but I was pretty mopey for a while. He's sick to death of hearing about it, and it's been affecting our sex life, too (since I feel icky and undesirable and have been eating too much chocolate).

I clarified things, of course. He's not at all jealous of me dating women, though he does seem to think they're all emotional basketcases at the moment. He is jealous of men, but he's determined that it's a very deep, basic hostility toward other men's fertility (to be fair, I get pregnant if a guy sneezes on me, so it's not a baseless fear), rather than an emotional fear of losing me. In short, he's cool with me dating eunuchs.

But he just doesn't understand why I'd want to bother, with either. It really sounds overwhelming to him. He's very laid back and not particularly ambitious about anything, so it's not surprising. Unfortunately, I'm not happy unless I have an endlessly evolving array of hobbies and interests...so maybe it's not surprising that I'm not feeling quite "right" without additional social and sexual connections.

He says he understands this about me. But I'm still worried what damage it might do to our marriage if I starting actively trying to date again--even if I limited myself to women.

Me: Ya know, even with the problems, I did really enjoy having a "secondary" relationship.
Vino: So...you liked having someone who sort of liked you, and was sort of there for you some of the time?
Me: Um...yeah. I guess.

[nycindie]

Ha. Ivy, my guess is that you liked the idea of going against societal norms. But hey you can do that by re-investing in your marriage and finding ways to make that more exciting and fulfilling (so few couples do that, it would be going against the grain!). Why not spend time working on YOU, and satisfy that need for hobbies with things you like to do but which are not relationships? Why not take time out for peace and tranquility, go to some meditation retreat or something? Come back from self-exploration stronger and more comfy with YOU, and you will attract more mature, kind, loving people for additional relationships. I dare say the idiocy of those two, and the drama they created, could have something to do with, perhaps, a dissatisfaction on your part with living on an even keel. I have a friend like you, and I often kid him by saying "You can't hit a moving target, right?" Slow down, feel the hurt, confusion, sadness that is there as well as the joy, sense of accomplishments, and so on. That is where your confidence will come, by the way.

[SNeacail]

Unfortunately, I'm not happy unless I have an endlessly evolving array of hobbies and interests...

LOL, this describes my whole family :). I'm joining a historical re-enactment group, where I can put ot use some of things I already love to do, but find that I am really excited about learning some new stuff :p. I need another hobby like I need a hole in my head :eek:

[Ivy]

Why not take time out for peace and tranquility, go to some meditation retreat or something?

My first thought was, "nope, there's no way I can fit that in my schedule!" :D

[Ivy]

I'm joining a historical re-enactment group, where I can put ot use some of things I already love to do....

SCA, by any chance? I've been struggling not to join that for years--just too much of a time commitment. But I really really wanna!

[SNeacail]

SCA, by any chance? I've been struggling not to join that for years--just too much of a time commitment. But I really really wanna!

Not really, but I think quite a few members participate in both. It's a Scottish highland group, that has a big presence at the local Ren Faire and other events. I'm still a bit clueless about all the logistics still.

[Ivy]

Today is bad. There's nothing particularly wrong, and I'm not in a bad mood or having a bad hair day or anything. I'm not feeling objectively unattractive, but I am feeling unappealing.

I was raised to find a man, marry him, and settle down as soon as humanly possible, lest I become old and unwanted and abandoned. Attracting male attention beyond that was considered greedy and extremely poor form in my family--specifically, you got labeled a slut, with all the worst, homewreckiest connotations of the word.

I hate what this has done to my sexual confidence. I wanted to date, to meet lots of people, and to have lots of amazing sex. I do make friends easily and I do meet lots of people, but when it comes to being desired, I fully expect to be excluded from that dynamic.

An obscenely attractive man smiled at me in the elevator at work yesterday, and I freaked out. I went through a series of emotions:

- Disbelief (Is he smiling? Or does he just have something stuck in his teeth?)
- Panic/Defensiveness (Look at the floor! Quick! Before he sees you looking at him!!)
- Self-Doubt (There are two other women in the elevator. He must have smiled at them.)
- Self-Loathing (Of course he was smiling at one of them; why would he smile at you?)
- Humiliation (Fuck. He already noticed you looking at him. Fuck fuck fuck. He must be disgusted. I hope he's not someone important.)
- Resignation (Well, that sucked.)
- Prolonged Navel-Gazing (What the hell is wrong with me??)

This is miserable and depressing and bums me out beyond words. I don't want to be like this. I want to feel attractive, I want to explore my sexuality and embrace sexual attraction when it's there and it's a healthy option. I have a husband who supports this, for crying out loud!

But in the actual situation, it doesn't work. Fail. :(

[nycindie]

Ivy, Ivy, Ivy. Do not think of yourself as having failed. You now have insight into something a lot of people struggle for: knowing how your mind works. Now you can recognize these thought patterns as they come up and realize that they are only "tapes" (or patterns in your thinking) that play in certain situations and you can choose to either listen to, or ignore. It's like a radio playing really bad music in the background. You can let it bother you until you're ready to scream, or you can just focus on what is in front of you, the present moment, and that bad music will fade. Pay it no credence other than knowing this is a response that comes up in the "machine" your brain is. Also know that some of those thoughts you "heard" very likely could have belonged to those other women, and you just sensed them and thought they were your own thoughts because they seemed to match your old familiar opinions of yourself. This is an opportunity for more self-knowledge. Not a fail.

[Ivy]

Vino and I had fancy cocktails this evening. It was lovely. Later, feeling nice and mellow, I popped on here to read updated threads. I commented on a couple. Then I thought, wow, who the hell am I to be giving advice, especially about polyamory? I'm absolutely, undeniably clueless.

It's strange how other people's circumstances seem so clear, the solutions so completely obvious. It would be nice to have the same emotional distance from my own relationships.

Just a casual thought.

[TruckerPete]

It's strange how other people's circumstances seem so clear, the solutions so completely obvious. It would be nice to have the same emotional distance from my own relationships.

Just a casual thought.

Ain't that the truth!

[TheBlackSwede]

Ivy, Ivy, Ivy. Do not think of yourself as having failed. You now have insight into something a lot of people struggle for: knowing how your mind works. Now you can recognize these thought patterns as they come up and realize that they are only "tapes" (or patterns in your thinking) that play in certain situations and you can choose to either listen to, or ignore. It's like a radio playing really bad music in the background. You can let it bother you until you're ready to scream, or you can just focus on what is in front of you, the present moment, and that bad music will fade. Pay it no credence other than knowing this is a response that comes up in the "machine" your brain is. Also know that some of those thoughts you "heard" very likely could have belonged to those other women, and you just sensed them and thought they were your own thoughts because they seemed to match your old familiar opinions of yourself. This is an opportunity for more self-knowledge. Not a fail.

X2 on this! Ignore those thoughts as a scientist would ignore their own real-time subjective interpretations of data during a study. Experience the moment. See what it becomes. Let what's actually happening inform your opinion, instead of your preconceptions.

I know I know, duh, right? It seems so easy from way over here, I'm sure it must seem impossible from your shoes. I've had self-esteem issues in the past too, and it still surprises me sometimes when attractive women flirt with me, let alone date me. But I allow myself the surprise.

[BlackUnicorn]

I often stumble at the 'keep on communicating' point in my own polyships. Like, yeah, I totally understand the point of it, but it's so HARD applied to real life!

[Ivy]

Thanks for the understanding. :)

I haven't been posting much because I don't want to spread the downer vibes, and because I'm beginning to feel like it's rather silly to define myself as "poly" just because I'd really like to have multiple relationships. At the same time, I'm still really struggling to get over my feelings for Ella and Ben, I've lost touch with my entire old circle of friends, and despite meeting plenty of new people recently and spending tons of quality time with Vino and the kiddos, I still feel isolated, and, well, really freaking lonely.

And even though I've met literally dozens of new people, there's never even been a glimmer of interest, and that's profoundly discouraging. I'm really not unattractive (at least I don't think I am), so I'm feeling very lost and hopeless. I'm beginning to think that I should just do my best to be happy with monogamy--one of those "accept the things you can't change" situations. Blah.

Like I said, bad mojo. Sorry. :(

[sage]

Hi Ivy

I don't think polyamory should be used to filled voids. Just as with anyone seeking a relationship you have to be happy with yourself first and then adding someone into that is fantastic.

You said you're feeling lonely and yet you sound as if you have heaps of people in your life. Your sadness may just be a natural grieving process for the relationship you lost.

I think the most dangerous thing about polyamory is that there is the option of filling your life up with new relationships so that you never have to confront yourself or your existing partner(s) at a deep level.

And if all else fails remember 'this too will pass'.

Smiles

[Ivy]

Your sadness may just be a natural grieving process for the relationship you lost.

It definitely is. A lot of people I cared very much about just kind of vanished from my life after the breakup, so I'm mourning a lot more than just that relationship.

I think the most dangerous thing about polyamory is that there is the option of filling your life up with new relationships so that you never have to confront yourself or your existing partner(s) at a deep level.

I'm definitely trying to replace the friends I've lost, because I know I don't do well without social connections. My new friendships are in the early stages, though, so they still feel fake and distant. I'm really quite confident about my career and ability to make friendly social and professional connections. It's when sex or attraction enters the picture that I lose it.

For the record, I'm not trying to replace the relationship with Ella (in fact, there are a lot of things about that relationship that I never want to repeat). I do want very badly to feel "wanted," though. It's not a feeling I've had very many times in my life, and it's one I enjoy.

I do tend to slip into introversion very easily and then I get depressed, so I'm trying to avoid overanalyzing myself too much. My relationship with Vino is really genuinely healthy. I would be a trembling, tear-sodden lump of coagulated misery if he hadn't been so supportive through this whole mess.

For what it's worth, he and I talked about this many, many times, and he feels my upbringing and the way I was treated when I was younger have made me "sex-negative"--sex, or even just unwanted attraction, necessarily damages relationships, alienates people, etc. So, when I do approach people, I take a very defensive position. He feels strongly that I present an attitude and nonverbal cues that shout, "Oh, no, don't worry! I won't hit on you or flirt with you or do anything like that! I'm safe! We're just friends/professional acquaintances/whatever!"

This, in his opinion, is tantamount to having "UNAVAILABLE" tattooed on my forehead.

But see? Overanalyzing. Fixing is never as easy as thinking.

And if all else fails remember 'this too will pass'.

Christ on toast, I hope it does. The sooner the better. :D

[TheBlackSwede]

...when I do approach people, I take a very defensive position. He feels strongly that I present an attitude and nonverbal cues that shout, "Oh, no, don't worry! I won't hit on you or flirt with you or do anything like that! I'm safe! We're just friends/professional acquaintances/whatever!"

This, in his opinion, is the tantamount to having "UNAVAILABLE" tattooed on my forehead.


...and he would be right. I'm not going to continue to flirt with a woman who sends me signals like that, because I'd feel like I was being creepy and inappropriate.

I don't think this is overanalysis - I think this is something important to watch for in your own habitual behavior. Maybe you need to turn on the flirt a bit more? I dunno, I'm a dude, take that one with a grain of salt. :p

[Ivy]

I dunno, I'm a dude, take that one with a grain of salt. :p

I just had an odd thought.

I've always felt like I've had an easier time connecting with women as far as attraction goes, and I've sensed more often when women were "flirting" with me. I still doubt whether I'm reading it right, but it just seems like the chemistry's there more often with women.

But, this anti-flirt thing I do, I do it mostly to make the other person comfortable. I developed it, I think, to save the other person the effort of rejecting me. Now, though, I feel like it's intended to take the pressure off the situation--if there's no risk of attraction or sex, we can act like reasonable adults and move on with our friendship or professional relationship.

Maybe women appreciate that more, and don't see it as a sexual deterrent? Like they're a little more free to be themselves and flirt on their own terms.

I know, as a woman, if a drunk guy comes up and starts flirting aggressively, it feels scary, and I try very hard to remove myself from the situation. For a guy, though, if a drunk girl comes up flirting, it's not intimidating. Sure, it's awkward and you don't act on it, but you don't feel at risk or threatened, right?

And really, if a femme woman started aggressively flirting with me, I'd start looking around to see which guy she's trying to impress with hot bi-girl action.

So maybe, for women, the anti-flirt thing really does take the pressure off and feel more comfortable, but for men, it comes off as frigid.

(Caveat: I know some people are really averse to gender generalizations, but culture really shapes how people think and act. Social and sexual power dynamics often differ between men and women, unfortunately.)

I dunno. Just thinking out loud (er...in text, anyway).

[nycindie]

I've shared this here before on these forums, but when I was dating back before I got married, I used to imagine a neon sign above my head that flashed the word "Available." I'd be getting ready to go out, and imagine myself turning that sign on, and whenever it seemed like I was getting the attention I wanted, I imagined checking to make sure it was "on." It does help sometimes to give yourself visuals. I shared that with a friend of mine, and she says it helps her when she's out networking and trying to meet people. For you, it would just be a sort of re-framing. If you focus on just projecting availability, it might help your insecurities.

[Ivy]

I used to imagine a neon sign above my head that flashed the word "Available."

You know, I used to have severe panic disorder--as in, calling 911 and running in front of semi trucks and stuff because I was so uncontrollably terrified that I literally had no idea what I was doing. That kind of thing would happen every single day. I did some serious cognitive behavioral therapy and got it under control, and while I still occasionally have the beginnings of that intense anxiety, it only happens once or twice a year and never progresses into a full attack.

But with the panic attacks, even at the worst, I knew it was internal--something I was doing to myself, even if it felt out of control. With attraction, I've always framed it as something someone else either feels or doesn't feel toward me. Even if I'm intensely attracted to someone, that fact is utterly irrelevant, because it's meaningless if they don't return the feeling.

Possibly this approach needs some reworking. I like the neon sign idea. With my issues, I'm really going to have to focus on imagining a classy nightclub-style logo, and not a dive-bar Bud Light sign. ;)

[nycindie]

I like the neon sign idea. With my issues, I'm really going to have to focus on imagining a classy nightclub-style logo, and not a dive-bar Bud Light sign. ;)

I likey!!!

[Ivy]

Went out hiking with my crush today--we'll call her Ruby. She's been assigned to help me train for derby and is pretty much pure sexy tattooed badass awesome. Le sigh.

I know she's dated women, and I think she might be into some BDSM, but I haven't asked--I don't want to seem pushy. I'm pretty much in a constant state of awe and marginal inferiority around her. The upshot is that I train harder, if only so she doesn't think I'm an incompetent slacker. :D

Unfortunately, since she's working so closely with me, I'm thinking it's a bad idea to flirt or anything. I'm not up for being that vulnerable right now, and rejection would make me really uncomfortable around her and would make it difficult for us to skate together (especially with the amount of contact that goes on). So I'm holding my tongue, so to speak. ;)

My de-crushing process is really unhealthy, though. I feel like I need to get over it, so I tell myself there's no way she would like me anyway. I construct rejection. Nasty psychological scars from being the fat girl, I guess. I've convinced myself she thinks I'm a boring, vanilla lawyer type with a neat little hetero nuclear family, and that precludes any attraction. But then that sticks with me, and makes me disappointed and frustrated that I come off that way. I'm not boring or vanilla, dammit, and I'm definitely not hetero!

Grrr.

[nycindie]

Here's another approach: enjoy your crush and just know that you don't have to act on it. She sounds awesome, why not revel in how she makes you feel? We don't always have to follow our crushes to a liaison; it can just be a nice admiration and hot fantasy. Don't think you have to put yourself down in your mind in order to "pull back." Be there with her, doing the skating thing, become a friend, develop camaraderie, and then go home and get yourself off thinking about her. What's wrong with that?

[Ivy]

Here's another approach: enjoy your crush and just know that you don't have to act on it.

You mean...stay in emotional limbo and just kind of enjoy it? And not accomplish anything or evolve as a person or analyze myself or my feelings or try to determine someone else's mindset or motives? Eeeeeek! :eek:

You're right, I think. Maybe.

[TheBlackSwede]

I'd agree with NYCindie on this one - don't de-crush, enjoy it! If at some point something happens, then it does, in the meantime, you can just enjoy feeling sexy!

One thing you said earlier really struck me - when you mentioned that you've always thought of attraction as starting with other people. It starts with you. The sexier you feel, the sexier others will perceive you. The more comfortable and confident you are, the more attractive you become! My advice? More sex. More self-pleasure, all by your lonesome. Put a big mirror in your bedroom. OWN it. LOVE it. Love YOU.

I know, not so simple. ...but in my experience, things like that help you feel sexier, and it all just grows from there.

[Ivy]

One thing you said earlier really struck me - when you mentioned that you've always thought of attraction as starting with other people. It starts with you. The sexier you feel, the sexier others will perceive you.

You know, I was looking at a some pics from a few years back, when I was freshly skinny, feeling pretty good, and meeting lots of new people. I was also monogamous and not really questioning it. I felt really sexy (and I wore some truly shameless clothing), but I also felt really in control--I was thinking, "sure, look at it all you want, but no matter what, you're not good enough to touch it!" Kind of the wrong reasons, but the right idea. And also, being touched would be kinda awesome (depending on the person, of course).

More sex.

Vino thinks you're brilliant.

More self-pleasure, all by your lonesome. Put a big mirror in your bedroom. OWN it. LOVE it. Love YOU.

I agree, this needs to happen. I'm working on giving myself permission to get what I want, without feeling unworthy or apologetic or scared.

[Ivy]

Oh, good news: I had this friend (I'll call her Heather) during law school who I knew was poly, but we sort of lost touch after graduation last year. I had considered talking to her about all this, but decided not to since I knew she'd been involved with Ben for a short while, before he started dating Ella.

Through a serious of extremely awkward and rather humiliating coincidences, she found out that Vino and I are opening up our relationship. She also found out about my relationship with Ella. Oy.

BUT...Heather shared with me the impression she got of Ben and Ella based on her experiences with them, individually and as a couple. It wasn't positive, but more importantly, it was practically identical to my experiences and impressions.

My God, I felt so much better (even if our conversation did border on vicious smacktalk). I mean, everyone has their faults, believe me, but I didn't realize how much I had been blaming myself for absolutely all of it. Talking to Heather made me realize that much of it was simply the way Ben and Ella are, and I can't change that, and I was miserable trying to emotionally survive while squashed in the middle of it.

Such an amazing relief. I may be effed up, but they're just as effed up, too! :cool:

[TheBlackSwede]

You know, I was looking at a some pics from a few years back, when I was freshly skinny, feeling pretty good, and meeting lots of new people. I was also monogamous and not really questioning it. I felt really sexy (and I wore some truly shameless clothing), but I also felt really in control--I was thinking, "sure, look at it all you want, but no matter what, you're not good enough to touch it!" Kind of the wrong reasons, but the right idea. And also, being touched would be kinda awesome (depending on the person, of course).

This thread is now useless without pics. ;)


Vino thinks you're brilliant.

I'm beginning to like this guy!

I agree, this needs to happen. I'm working on giving myself permission to get what I want, without feeling unworthy or apologetic or scared.

You'll get there, I know it! We're all rooting for you. ...and I'm rooting EXTRA hard (hehe, double-entendre) because we were just talking about masturbation. :D

On your recent good news (the convo with Heather) - it can be so incredibly refreshing to hear from another person that you're not crazy, and it's not all your fault. It's absolutely impossible to have that kind of perspective by yourself. We are all of us messed up in one way or another, and sometimes emotions can blind us from the faults of others. We think it's OUR fault, and beat ourselves up, this just makes it all worse, or so I've found. So glad this happened for you, I know the feeling of "wait, you're right, it's NOT all my fault!" - like a hundred pounds lifted of your shoulders.

[Ivy]

Couple of things happened this week.

First, went to Crush's birthday party. (She really needs a better name...but I haven't figured one out that feels right). Crush had quite a few friends over, and all of them were really outgoing, interesting, and fun. This has cemented my belief that Crush is the most amazing person I currently know.

That said, I'm starting to read subtext into everything she says or does. Not good. We went out for drinks a few days back, and I drove her home. We were sitting in her driveway and she mentioned that she's only dated straight men and gay women, except for once when she maybe possibly accidentally "converted" a previously straight woman. It seemed like an odd comment to make at the time (we were talking about the boys her daughter dates). So, now I'm thinking, was she trying to make it obvious that she's interested in women? Or was she suggesting that she's not interested in bisexual women? Or was it just a random, unplanned comment?? Ack!!

All this is rather silly anyway, since I don't know how open her marriage is.

Second, Vino and I took our smaller spawn to a pool party. Vino was pleased to discover (1) that he was the best-looking guy there, and (2) that carrying around a cute toddler is a great way to hit on women. He seemed especially interested in a curvy redhead who kept suggestively sunning herself. I've met her and she's very sweet; I don't know if there's any potential there (she's got a boyfriend, and we still feel weird casually mentioning non-monogamy). If anything, it did make me a little insecure that he was clearly interested in someone sporting a very juicy D-cup, but my unexpected lack of boobage has been a source of self-doubt since I lost weight. I know firsthand how much Vino likes the titties, and it was a bummer to watch mine disappear.

Le sigh. Implants, perhaps?

[Ivy]

This thread is now useless without pics. ;)

I assure you, I'm no match for your SoCal cuties. :p

[TheBlackSwede]

was she trying to make it obvious that she's interested in women? Or was she suggesting that she's not interested in bisexual women? Or was it just a random, unplanned comment?? Ack!!

Uh, seems pretty obvious to me. Then again, I wasn't there. Still, seems an odd "random unplanned comment" for a bi-woman to make under the influence, in the car with another beautiful woman... Just sayin'. DEFINITELY wouldn't say she's not interested in bi women.

All this is rather silly anyway, since I don't know how open her marriage is.

If she's got a history of dating women, and pretty-much turned on the flirt with you, it sounds like a fair subject to bring up...

Second, Vino and I took our smaller spawn to a pool party. Vino was pleased to discover (1) that he was the best-looking guy there, and (2) that carrying around a cute toddler is a great way to hit on women. He seemed especially interested in a curvy redhead who kept suggestively sunning herself. I've met her and she's very sweet; I don't know if there's any potential there (she's got a boyfriend, and we still feel weird casually mentioning non-monogamy). If anything, it did make me a little insecure that he was clearly interested in someone sporting a very juicy D-cup, but my unexpected lack of boobage has been a source of self-doubt since I lost weight. I know firsthand how much Vino likes the titties, and it was a bummer to watch mine disappear.

Le sigh. Implants, perhaps?

Good boobage is a wonderful thing. Yours may be smaller now, but don't knock yer knockers... shape is more important than size - bar none, and most of us prefer natural to implants. Have you mentioned it to him? Maybe he wouldn't even want you to do it!

I assure you, I'm no match for your SoCal cuties. :p

Oh you'd be surprised... haha, shoot me an email, let me be the judge of that... :D 'sides, you show me yours and I'll show you mine... :p

[nycindie]

haha, shoot me an email, let me be the judge of that... :D 'sides, you show me yours and I'll show you mine... :p

Down, boy! ;)

[TheBlackSwede]

Down, boy! ;)

Wow, cockblocked on the INTERNET! :eek:

;)

[Ivy]

'sides, you show me yours and I'll show you mine... :p

Nice kilt.

[nycindie]

Wow, cockblocked on the INTERNET! :eek:

;)

I never heard of that expression until I first visited this forum late last year. Now I just figured out what it means, LOL.

[TheBlackSwede]

Nice kilt.

Thank you! Nice.... everything. :cool:

I never heard of that expression until I first visited this forum late last year. Now I just figured out what it means, LOL.

LOL! Quod Erat Demonstrandum, I suppose...

[Ivy]

I'm really angry with Vino this morning. Not a relationship issue per se; I ordered an awesome pair of shoes and I was superexcited about the package arriving today, so I showed him a pic of them. He looked disgusted and made a comment suggesting that they'll make my feet look big. I might have been okay if he'd just said he didn't like them, but it was a half-assed insinuation. Plus, I was pretty freaking excited about them, and that just crushed it.

When this kind of thing happens, it really kills my desire to communicate with him at all. I went skating with Crush last night, and afterward she invited me to a late dinner-meeting-thing with a group of her non-derby friends. It was fun! I was superexcited!! And now I feel absolutely no desire to talk to Vino about it, lest he be a killjoy about that as well.

I know this kind of thing happens even in the best relationships. But...grrr. I'm cranky now.

[Ivy]

Well, it looks like Crush doesn't return the sentiment, and is even a little irritated with me.

I'm not surprised, but I am surprised by how hard it's hitting me. I'm torn about whether to keep trying to interact with people or just withdraw entirely. I feel disgusting.

How is this dating thing so effortless for some people?

[TheBlackSwede]

Well, it looks like Crush doesn't return the sentiment, and is even a little irritated with me.

I'm not surprised, but I am surprised by how hard it's hitting me. I'm torn about whether to keep trying to interact with people or just withdraw entirely. I feel disgusting.

How is this dating thing so effortless for some people?

Ivy, I'm sorry to hear that, and kinda surprised. You're a beautiful woman, and the interaction you mentioned really seemed like she was into you in some way. Maybe she's in denial, and worries that what she's feeling is threatening her marriage.

I'm just as curious about how dating is so easy for some people... I have a hard enough time finding dates, and usually when I DO manage to get a date, it winds up being a non-starter. :(

[nycindie]

Well, it looks like Crush doesn't return the sentiment, and is even a little irritated with me.

I'm not surprised, but I am surprised by how hard it's hitting me. I'm torn about whether to keep trying to interact with people or just withdraw entirely. I feel disgusting.

How is this dating thing so effortless for some people?

I don't think anyone here would say dating is effortless, but it does help grow a thick skin to keep at it despite all the many disappointments (we all have 'em!). And you often have to turn over a lot of rocks in order to find that gem that's for you.

Also want to say that just because someone doesn't have the same feelings for you that you have for them, DOES NOT mean that they don't find you attractive. It could be that she has a commitment to someone that you don't know about, and she's mono OR that she's just not into any kind of relationship right now. Maybe she has a policy of not dating people she's teaching derby to. Maybe she flirts with everybody and it doesn't mean anything to her. It could be any number of reasons, none of which have to do with you or your attractiveness. What might have to do with you is possibly that It could also be that you have come across as very insecure and fragile and she is steering clear to avoid hurting you.

What makes you say she's irritated with you???

You're a beautiful woman . . .Yes, you are, and I haven't even seen any pics of you to know this!

[TruckerPete]

Also want to say that just because someone doesn't have the same feelings for you that you have for them, DOES NOT mean that they don't find you attractive.

It also doesn't mean she doesn't like you as a person. :)

[Ivy]

Thanks for the kind words.

Basically, on Sunday evening we were at an event together, and I was flirting enough that my feelings were obvious, and she seemed to suddenly realize what was going on. She withdrew very abruptly, and we didn't talk for the rest of the night. I did stress about it at the time, but mostly because I felt like a loser for being so obvious about the flirtation. She was really busy that night, so I didn't think much about not seeing her. Today, though, she expressed a desire for distance, and her texts are unusually icy (admittedly, you lose some tone when texting, but still).

Not a great way to start the week.

I'm still stuck in the moment, and I've been obsessing over the text conversation and all that fun stuff. I need to process, and I need a box of those lovely tissues with aloe and such. Self-pity is rough on the skin.

[nycindie]

Oh, Ivy, honey - this is just someone you have a crush on, someone you don't know that well. Don't take it so hard!!! Don't make her more important to you in your mind than she really is. It's no reflection on you at all. Not everyone we zero in on is going to want the same thing. And no one ever died of embarrassment. There were so many times I made a complete fool of myself... but in the end, it doesn't matter. Hold your head high - you did nothing wrong. So you flirted, big whoop! Keep going. You can apologize... or not. Put on your big girl panties and move on! There's someone else who's right for you out there, but you're not going to find them by sobbing on your couch!

[TruckerPete]

Yeah, if you apologize keep it simple. "Hey, guess I misread your signals. I'm sorry for any weirdness, and I like hanging out with you, so water under the bridge!"

Maybe something light, like a rift between the two of you would hamper the team, so you can say, "Think of the team!!"

When I was rejected once by a guy, I said, "Well, I'm glad THAT'S over. I hate asking people out!" He laughed, and we shared our mutual dislike of that kind of situation.

Act normally around her; don't be ashamed of what you've done, and it will all blow over. The distance she's creating now is most likely to ensure you understand she's not interested. It probably won't stay.

[Ivy]

I do feel better about it today. Still embarrassed as hell, but a little less hurt. Deleting the text convo helped immensely.

I won't see her until Saturday at the earliest, and on some level, it'll probably be good. Usually we talk and goof around a bit, but I suspect we'll both be too uncomfortable to talk about anything but skating. I'll be much more focused on improving my skills (and avoiding eye contact). So it works out. Sort of.

I don't plan to apologize--I wish I could say it's because I'm not sorry, but mostly it's because I desperately want to pretend it never happened.

I'm really going to try not to let this get the better of me emotionally. I've been keeping in touch with Heather about ethics and poly relationships, I've read just about every book out there, and I feel like once my life is less busy, I'd like to try actively dating again. I just feel like I'm stuck in the planning stages. Stepping beyond that feels so incredibly risky on so many levels, especially now. I worry that it just won't happen without thoroughly effing up one relationship or another.

Ack. Just...ack. I'm a polywannabe, I think.

[Ivy]

I haven't posted here in a while, but I thought I'd post now, to follow up on stuff and to tone down some of the negativity (my god, I was bummed over that breakup with Ella).

Good news: I apparently suck at interpreting signals, almost as much as I suck at giving them.

Crush was distancing herself because of stress, personal life problems, and balancing skate commitments with personal life. She totally had not realized I had been flirting with her, and had turned icy because someone else in the immediate area was being a bitch and it had gotten to her (I hadn't even been paying attention to anyone else in the area at that moment. Fail.) Together, these factors looked like clear rejection (and when I think about it, it still seems like it), but apparently they were unrelated and had nothing to do with me personally. It's really highlighted how much I anticipate and expect rejection.

Anyway, a couple weeks ago, I was disappointed with my performance at a skate practice, and she invited me over for drinks. We both got pretty drunk (for my part, because I was still feeling very awkward around her after what I thought was solid rejection). We ended up watching movies together, and then for reasons that make absolutely no sense to me now, I ended up stroking her hair.

And then suddenly we were making out.

She stopped me and arranged to get me home intact. I thought I was going to die of humiliation and regret, but she texted me the next morning to ask how much of my behavior was "real" and how much was alcohol. I told her it was absolutely real, though the alcohol was the only thing that made me crazy enough to try anything.

We texted on and off for the rest of the day, and the next, and so on. Her husband's fine with it and so's Vino, so we've gone out on several dates now and had some truly unfuckingbelievable sex. The strange part is she genuinely had no idea I was interested in her, and I sincerely didn't think it could get any more obvious.

So basically... :D

Anyway, don't know where it will go in the long run, and I really do NOT want to jinx it. But in the meanwhile...epic win. :cool:

[TruckerPete]

:D

[Minxxa]

Win!

[nycindie]

Happy for you! Yay!!!