I'm Afraid My Fiance Is Thinking Of Leaving Me

[koifish]

We had been in a triad and our girlfriend broke up with us a couple weeks ago. She was not happy in the relationship. She needed really to have a primary partner rather than dating a couple. I knew she was unhappy for a long time, and it really ruined the relationship for me. I could never tell when the next upset was coming and I lost trust and was worn out from all the reassurance that I gave that she could, in fact be happy, in this relationship. I stayed in the relationship partly out of not wanting to rock the boat and partly out of wanted my fiance to be happy and have what he wanted and partly hoping that because the thing works in theory that it would work for us. I am bi, by the way.

My fiance really loves her, and really enjoyed his relationship with her. While that was going on, I was so uncomfortable and unhappy and we spent so much time together the three of us, that I was significantly less affectionate and more withdrawn, not from him, but withdrawn from the situation. Unable to interact with them in an openly loving way, therefore spending a lot less time actingly lovingly towards him, since we didn't get a lot of time just the two of us.

Add to this the pressure of planning a wedding, and the fact that GF was deeply uncomfortable with the wedding.

My fiance always that when times get tough, it's going to be him and me. Him and me.

He was extremely sad when we broke up, naturally. I was sad, but also terribly relieved and looking forward to more time and attention from him, an opportunity for us to build our lives together.

He met with GF to have closure, and she brought up the idea of him seeing her separately but they both dismissed the idea he said, thinking we would just have the same problems as before.

Then a couple days ago, I had gotten insecure because his sadness and withdrawnness had gone on so long, but he told me he had told GF that he was with me not by default, but because he loved me so much. That was good enough for me.

Yesterday, he was withdrawn, listless, uncommunicative. I tried to take care of him the best way I could. It was almost like he was mad at me though, but wasn't saying it. He assured me he was just really tired.

This morning I wake up to find him angry and resentful. He told me he doesn't believe I will ever be able to meet his needs the way GF did. His evidence was the few months prior to dating GF, where we had moved in together and I had trouble being instantly intimate in this way and would tend to create emotional distance in place of the physical space I used to have. That got resolved just fine. And then he adds the evidence of how I've acted while we've dated GF, while I was desperately unhappy most of the time. He has an idea that I was in fact very unhappy, even as he was happy.

He is extremely resentful right now. He was mean when I brought him lunch, and has basically asked that I leave him alone at least for today, and I don't know how long.

He's been drinking more, and also hates his job. I know he dreams of just running away. GF also dreams of just running away. Because of various things, I can't just run away right now.

I feel like it's deeply unfair to think our relationship is unworkable now when he has loved me a whole lot in the past. I know in his mind he is comparing this 8 month relationship with GF, which was largely fun and enjoyable times for him, a honeymoon period after all, with our relationship. He showered affection and baby talk on GF, and saved the nitty gritty, all of his serious issues for me. Because we had a deeper relationship than he and GF did, he said.

Nobody matches up completely, nobody thinks about things in the same way. Long term relationships always involve conflict in the way that shorter term relationships don't.

What is he doing here? Is this a stage of grief? Or something worse?

This man is the love of my life, and honest to god, I can't imagine my life without him.

[MindfulAgony]

I'm really sorry that things have gone in this direction.

If you apply the seven stages of grief, it sounds like your fiance is stuck in what we used to call "the pit of despair." It's the middle stages of 3. Anger and Bargainning and 4. Depression, reflection and loneliness. My view is that you can't presume any particular outcome while someone is in that state. You just need to understand that he's grieving and do your best to be helpful while he is. There's no easy guideline as to how long this will take.

This is one of those moments where you simply have to realize that you can only control what you do and say - your choices. Your fiance will make his own choices in due time. The only advice I can give is to not shy away from seeing his pain (even if it manifests as anger and blaming you) and respond lovingly to that pain and not the particular manifestation (assuming it's not harmful to you).

While he's grieving, I'm not sure there's anything else to be done.

Once he starts making clear choices, then you can choose your own reactions to deal with that...

I feel for you though, it's a sucky place to be. Exercise some patience plus a high dose of loving behavior until things become more clear.

[Magdlyn]

Good luck, Koi, as you and your fiancee reassess this situation. Sounds like you and the gf were both unhappy for most of the relationship, while your guy just reveled in having 2 women, while leaving you both emotionally unsatisfied!

The heck with that! And I agree, he enjoyed the NRE mooshy gooshy stuff while you were left with mundane day to day shit. Seems to be such a big problem in poly relationships, and it's just not right.

[MindfulAgony]

Good luck, Koi, as you and your fiancee reassess this situation. Sounds like you and the gf were both unhappy for most of the relationship, while your guy just reveled in having 2 women, while leaving you both emotionally unsatisfied!

The heck with that! And I agree, he enjoyed the NRE mooshy gooshy stuff while you were left with mundane day to day shit. Seems to be such a big problem in poly relationships, and it's just not right.

Such a great point! Seems that his feelings were certainly out of synch with the folks around him. That's an interesting point of self-reflection right there, if he's open to it.

[koifish]

He likes giving affection, he loves loving, he loves taking care of people, and he's great at commitment. In retrospect it becomes a little more obvious that he was enjoying this situation, whereas the GF and I were just trying to make it work. And not that often being successful at it.

If we try this again, it will have to be different.

I am recovering well, and GF is recovering well from the breakup. We are going to be good friends, I think. That's sort of what we mostly were anyways.

I have found a lot of peace in thinking about the stages of grief (I think he is in stage III - anger) and that some people experience the anger stage so intensely that they lash out and damage or permanently destroy relationships. They resent and blame those who are closest to them regardless of actual fault.

So. I'm taking a deep breath. This is the man I have committed my life to. I will let him know that it's okay for him to feel angry and to want space, and that I love him and will be there for him. I will honor his grieving process. It's out of my hands anyways. I also think it's interesting how I'm probably seeing him at close to his worst even before we get married. It's weirdly freeing.

[koifish]

Anyone have any ideas about how to facilitate the grieving process when someone is in this state?

[MindfulAgony]

Ultimately, the goal is to help someone work out their feelings. Work out doesn't mean expedite. Rather it means giving them space to feel (and not suppress) their emotions and a non-judgmental ear that allows them to work through those feelings.

This can be hard to do if you are very close to the person. This is why therapy or other type of counseling is so useful when someone is grieving.

I always fall back on something that a professor told me a long time ago. The first duty of a friend when someone they love is grieving is to be there. Not to talk. Not to fix it. Nor expedite it. Just the willingness to be present.

People often struggle with this advice as they can feel so helpless. Like they "should be doing something." What the willingness (or maybe stubborness) to be present means to me is that I:

Don't let my discomfort in seeing them in pain make me shut down
hold them when the want to be held
Leave when they want me to go (but be close by)
Listen when they want to talk
Wait when I don't know what to do next


I abandoned the idea of becoming a therapist because I couldn't separate others pain from my own. And, so I'd be useless doing this on a daily basis. But, the above is how I approach being a friend to someone in pain.

[koifish]

All of this is really challenging:

Don't let my discomfort in seeing them in pain make me shut down
hold them when the want to be held
Leave when they want me to go (but be close by)
Listen when they want to talk
Wait when I don't know what to do next

I'll add one more: Don't take the grieving person's actions personally.

You are totally right, though. That's what I need to do. I did some more reading about grief, and those things are what's needed. I'm settling in for the long haul.

My wedding is quickly approaching and I'm trying to keep my heart out of my throat. I think he has moved away to some degree from the caustic anger.

[MindfulAgony]

I'll add one more: Don't take the grieving person's actions personally.



Yes, absolutely that too! Hang in there and try to find some time for some self-care.

[BlackUnicorn]

If we try this again, it will have to be different.

Both having partners of your own or a gf who has a primary of her own?

[koifish]

Probably a GF who has a primary of her own. The entire time we were together, I felt like it was on my shoulders to make her happy. She felt comfortable and loving with my fiance from the beginning,and he with her, and it was early on decided that it was mainly my problems with "being close to people" that prevented me from being acting in unison with my fiance as a primary to her. And this (it as decided) was why she was unhappy.

I felt incredibly inadequate, stressed and unhappy. Each time there was sort of an explosion of unhappiness in her, when she would try to break up with us, and my fiance would convince her to stay, that things would be different, I would feel huge amounts of pressure heaped upon me to "be close". At the same instant, I felt such pressure to make her happy and such a lack of trust that she could be happy and that she wanted to be in this relationship, that I couldn't be close. It was decided that it was the lack of development in GF's and my relationship that made her unhappy.

So GF and fiance became closer and closer. And I let them, because I knew he wanted it and I felt like the defective one, and I felt my unhappiness signified that I was the defective one among the three of us. The level of care and affection and emotional intimacy he used to have for me transferred in a big way to her, caring for her, keeping her happy by bits and pieces in this relationship she never really wanted, never really believed would work for her. I guess that he thought I knew I had him and should feel secure in that, and therefore did not require as much care (or possibly deserve it, since I was the one doing something wrong)

I'm beginning to see all these things in retrospect more clearly, and it's starting to make me angry. He was concerned if I would be good to him for the rest of our lives, as he has been grieving. As in, would I be as good to him as GF has been in the several months we have been dating her, the several months during which he has showered an enormous amount of care and affection on her, had a lack of the mundane conflicts that long term relationships bring, and basically aligned himself with her in finding problems with how I performed in this relationship.

I think he has been selfish, honestly.

He is not the only wondering if someone will be good to someone over the course of a marriage.

I'm going to have to find something else to do with my anger other than talk to him about it right now. He is too fragile with the grief.

[BlackUnicorn]

Poor you! Please note you just received a virtual hug.

As in, would I be as good to him as GF has been in the several months we have been dating her, the several months during which he has showered an enormous amount of care and affection on her, had a lack of the mundane conflicts that long term relationships bring, and basically aligned himself with her in finding problems with how I performed in this relationship.

This actually produced a giant 'YIKES' reaction in me. Performance is a word that should not be coupled with sex, love or relationships. The fact that you felt it was your performance that was somehow under evaluation sounds just really wrong and unfair.

I am being super-cautious with my tree right now. I have decided it's her who needs the girlfriend and I will be her gf first and their gf second, in part to avoid some of the problems you mentioned your ex was having.

How does all this impact your wedding I wonder?

[koifish]

I hope the wedding is still going forward. I'm continuing with it as if it is. Two things need to happen before then:

My fiance needs to be through his grieving process enough so that he can love me openly and be happy on our wedding day. I need to have been able to talk about him about my anger and resentment about this relationship and have it resolved. We're talking a month way. Yikes.

[koifish]

Thank you for the hug!

[NeonKaos]

Would you be "as good to him"?!?!?!?!?!

You are TOO GOOD FOR HIM.

Don't marry this man.

[koifish]

I've got my faults, too.:-) Honest to god. But working on them.

For example, we had a lot of conflict over the wedding planning during all this with me not listening enough to what he wanted (I am not a bridezilla, btw :-) - i just wanted a celebration of sorts, where he wanted extremely small and private) and him being pretty untrustworthy about getting stuff done in response. At many times I was a shitty non-listener.

I think a lot of us carry a lot of weird stuff from childhood, things that were done to us, ways we were taught to behave. I see this non-listening behavior in both my parents.

One thing I don't regret about this relationship with GF is all the learning that went on. It's sort of a pressure cooker that brings to light insights about problems you weren't really aware of before and then it's sink or swim in figuring them out. So I swam with a lot of things. Learned a lot.

[MrFarFromRight]

How do I write this tactfully? I think that you have to work out your feelings before you get married. ("You" plural [you and your fiancé], but also "you" singular [koifish].) I'm reading between the lines here and am admittedly rather confused. I contributed 2 comments on your other thread: ":( I was just outed involuntarily 5 weeks before my wedding" (http://www.polyamory.com/forum/showthread.php?t=8317) which you asked the moderators to close before resolving your problem.

(Or do you now consider it resolved because the GF has left the relationship, making the being outed "irrelevant"?)

A few quotes from that thread:
"My fiance and I have known each other for 15 years. Last fall we became involved with a woman.
They all [your parents and your step-mother] say they are sad and disappointed and question why we are getting are getting married, even. They say the idea of our marriage has really been tarnished in their eyes and that when we have people come to our wedding who don't know about our third, that we are lying to them and betraying them. One of them said she specifically does not want our third at the wedding."

"My fiance now feels compelled to out us to his parents. This is horrible. I'm scared. [...] I don't know if his parents will want their financial contribution back. This will leave us with very little money for any kind of reception."

"I hope we decide we can wait to tell my fiance's parents so we can avoid that much more turmoil. [...] Right now I do not want to have to tell his parents. They are lovely and sweet and very religious and right now I love his dad more than my dad and they love me."

"I have to admit that I feel ashamed. Ashamed that other people know we've been doing this. My fiance is good at holding his head high. He'll even tell his parents, he says, before the wedding, and he doesn't worry about the consequences.
Me, I'm hanging my head right now. I am afraid for his family to know. They're important to me and their disapproval would bother me a whole lot. I like them more than most of my family.
I'm afraid of the unknown of telling them weeks before our wedding. I just have a hard time believing everything will be okay. It feels more like stepping off a cliff."

"Is this worth risking my relationships to my family over?"

And about your triad:
"She wants to be on completely equal standing with us right now, and always has, so the wedding sort of constantly upsets her. We were engaged 9 months before we met her.
When it's good with us, it's good. But that has been well under half the time."

"I care very much for our third and so does my fiance."

"I don't know if I am cut out for this. You may have read my other posts about being sick and polyamorous."

One of the pieces of advice I gave you on that thread was:
"[Don't] make your in-laws feel that you were being sneaky and dishonest by keeping quiet until after they'd paid for the show. The way things are now, they will find out someday. Wouldn't it be better to be honest and trust to their affection? Otherwise they will resent. [...] I think that if I were one of your fiancé's parents, financed the wedding, and then found out that you had kept us in the dark, partly out of fear that we would not pay for it if you'd been honest with us, I would feel manipulated and well pissed off!"

So... I have a few questions:
1) You've known your fiancé for 15 years, and you've been engaged what? 15 months? For how long were you a couple before you became engaged?
I bring this up because (you know this) there's this thing called NRE which would mean that your fiancé would be - for a while - more excited with a new relationship (about 6 months old at the time she called it quits?) than with someone that he's been loving for years. But - reading between the lines - you seem quite young to me, and I doubt that all those 15 years of "knowing each other" were as a couple.

2) Have you really changed your feelings towards the GF that much? (On the other thread, you had your doubts, but "When it's good with us, it's good. [...] I care very much for our third and so does my fiance." whereas on this thread you haven't got one good thing to say about her inclusion in the relationship.) Or is it that you were "putting on a brave face" before, whereas now you're being more honest with yourself about your pain and your dissatisfaction with the triad?

3) Are you poly... or were you just going along with your fiancé's wishes? (This isn't meant to be judgemental, believe me: There's no shame in declaring that polyamory isn't for you. And I think that both you and your fiancé need to be clear about this before you take the big step of getting married.)

4) Just how much of your present negative feelings about the GF's role in the triad are really due to this sense of shame (in the face of family and friends) about admitting that you're poly?

5) There's a common feeling re: budding poly relationships: "Am I not enough for him/her? Why does (s)he need another love?" Your parents (and stepmother) obviously ask themselves this question about your relationship with your fiancé. My question: Do you ask it? Even subconsciously?

+++

I have had a LOT of experience of listening to others' emotional crises. In the beginning, I would listen to A crying about how B was treating A really badly, and I'd agree that B was a real shit. Then I'd hear B's side of the story, and I'd see that B wasn't really such a shit. B had their reasons...

This happened often enough so that nowadays, my attitude is: "Wow, A! I feel for you. That sounds rough!... But what's B's take on this?" And even if I never hear A's side of the story, I'm aware that A has one.

I'd really like to read your fiancé's and the GF's feelings about all this.

I come back to the following point because it might save a lot of future heartache - and expensive dealings with lawyers:
Please, please! Do not go through with this wedding until you've got some basis issues well worked out and understood by both of you!

I apologise if I come across as the heavy guy. I wish you the best. Believe me. (I wouldn't have spent the last hour composing this comment if I didn't.:D)

[NeonKaos]

I thought I was the one who was being the "heavy guy".

I think I said in the other thread (maybe not) that it would be grooovy to hear the other side(s) of this story.

However, what you need to do is make decisions that are RIGHT for YOURSELF, and don't get married or decide not to get married because of other people's opinions or your families' expectations. So far, it sounds like your crises stem from "what will everyone THINK if I do this or that?"

You have to decide what's right for YOU, and start putting yourself first in your life.

[Penny]

MrFFR, dude, please use darker colors if you're gonna do the fancy formatting. My eyes are still recovering from the acid green.

ETA by Neon: I changed the "acid" green to a darker green and moved the hijacky posts to another thread.

Koifish, the closer it gets to the wedding date, the more disastrous and havoc-wrecking cancelling it will be. The pooch is already screwed here. Now does not seem a good time to get married.

At this point, the wedding seems more about the event than the relationship, which ain't good.

Why do you want to get married now? I think this is a really important question.

[nycindie]

I think he has been selfish, honestly.

He is not the only wondering if someone will be good to someone over the course of a marriage.

I'm going to have to find something else to do with my anger other than talk to him about it right now. He is too fragile with the grief.

Oh, puh-leez! You need to talk to him about it. NOW. Before you say your vows. Why defer to his grief for her, when he has been incredibly selfish and outright mean to you? If I were you, I would consider postponing the wedding until you work out these very very important issues in your relationship. He doesn't seem to know how to be kind and loving to you, much less able to handle polyamory.

Ecch! I'm so sorry you felt you had to put up with his shitty treatment of you!

He should come here and post his side, too.

[koifish]

MrFarFromRight,
Kinda harsh, but I can see how you would be confused and concerned by my posts, nearly all of which of occurred during intense periods of unhappiness.

My fiance and I dated for several years in high school, broke up and then got back together a number of years later. We've been together for 3 years. We are young, but not that young. We were together a year beofre becoming engaged.

If our relationship had been rock solid with GF, I would likely have stood up to family and taken the consequences. But it wasn't. Far from it. I was looking at trading a huge number of relationships with different people for this one, which barely worked, if you can even call it that. I wanted it to work, I resisted the advice of friends who nay sayed and it just didin't work.

I loved and still love GF. Yet this relationship, especially in retrospect, was bad. I actually made a very valiant effort in the face of much doubt and misery and it was still bad. I could not successfully make her part of my fiance's and I's relationship.

I don't know that I'm poly, I'm okay with my romantic life being slightly blurry around the edges, same for my fiance. I'm bi. But I would never do this like this again.

I was going to avoid talking to him about my feelings, because he is sad, but now I'm think I should anyways.

As for me and my stuff with the wedding. I have a tendency to run away slightly with fantasy. Maybe because I've spent so much time ill and dreaming vividly of nicer things. The stuff with the wedding was exacerbated by the triad, though.

I felt alienated by the relationship and unhappy and would withdraw into the distraction of planning. He would be playng with GF and keeping her happy, without keeping promises to me about getting stuff done. I would get upset at his being a flake. He would withdraw because I was upset that he wasn't helping and that I was in my own head planning and not listening to him enough. With GF, there was something to escape to, things need not have been dealt with with the wedding for him.

[nycindie]

Well, koifish, you know you weren't happy and were using fantasy as a retreat from your unhappiness, the unworkableness of the relationship, and his shitty, inconsiderate treatment of you.

So, what are you going to do? Get married anyway? The fantasies you may have of that fixing everything or turning the crap into something wonderful will almost certainly never come true, hate to break it to ya.

[ray]

I think I see what you mean with how you loved the GF but it just wasn't working. I know I had a hard time letting go even though there were all these problems because I just wanted so badly to make it work. It's amazing what humans will put themselves through in order to try and 'make it work.'

I agree with those that have remarked that some of these issues would be best worked out before the wedding. I've never been married so I have no personal experience to base this on. I bet it would be terrifying but it seems like there might be some things to consider.

[MrFarFromRight]

MrFarFromRight,
Kinda harshI didn't mean to be harsh... and there are others saying (without my long-windedness) what I'm saying.I was going to avoid talking to him about my feelings, because he is sad, but now I'm thinking I should anyways.I'm glad to see that you've changed your mind on this! May I suggest you search the term "non-violent communication" (also under "NVC")? Please don't think that I'm accusing you of violent communication! I just want your talks to have the best chance of success. And if he's sad (or angry) now, a little extra care about wording on your part could make a lot of difference.As for me and my stuff with the wedding. I have a tendency to run away slightly with fantasy. Maybe because I've spent so much time ill and dreaming vividly of nicer things. The stuff with the wedding was exacerbated by the triad, though.

I felt alienated by the relationship and unhappy and would withdraw into the distraction of planning. He would be playng with GF and keeping her happy, without keeping promises to me about getting stuff done. I would get upset at his being a flake. He and that I was in my own head planning and not listening to him enough. With GF, there was something to escape to, things need not have been dealt with with the wedding for him.You're confirming some of my earlier fears here: You write that he "would withdraw because I was upset that he wasn't helping" [with the planning for the wedding] and that you "have a tendency to run away slightly with fantasy [...] I felt alienated by the relationship and unhappy and would withdraw into the distraction of planning."

It seems that both are forms of escaping. Consider the possibility that you were escaping from dealing with the problems of your relationship (some of which - but perhaps not all? - had to do with the GF) into the fantasy world of weddings, being a bride [you wrote that he preferred a much simpler wedding with just a few friends], and "happily ever after", while he was escaping from the idea of the wedding - and perhaps(?) even of marriage - into the fantasy world of his NRE with her.

If he has doubts about getting married - or about getting married according to your conditions ("But I would never do this like this again." - What if that's what he wants?) then you really are better off postponing the wedding until you clear this all up.

You mentioned several times on that other thread your concerns about finance: that you couldn't afford to do this without his parents financial support, that friends who had already bought plane tickets might decide to back out if they knew that you were poly...

Do you know how much a divorce can cost?

Getting married as a way of saving a relationship is about as crazy as having a child to save a relationship (though not as disastrous... because there's not a child to suffer as well). If he's reluctant about getting married, you need to decide if the dream is heading towards nightmare.

[MrFarFromRight]

The following got moved by Neonkaos to a new thread about formatting. I've removed the "highjacking" portion and repost here, as what's left has to do with this thread (and possibly influenced koifish in her response to me [now a few comments back]) In it, I'm only agreeing with 2 other comments... but agreement is part of a conversation:However, what you need to do is make decisions that are RIGHT for YOURSELF, and don't get married or decide not to get married because of other people's opinions or your families' expectations. So far, it sounds like your crises stem from "what will everyone THINK if I do this or that?"

You have to decide what's right for YOU, and start putting yourself first in your life.Too true!Koifish, the closer it gets to the wedding date, the more disastrous and havoc-wrecking cancelling it will be. The pooch is already screwed here. Now does not seem a good time to get married.

At this point, the wedding seems more about the event than the relationship, which ain't good.

Why do you want to get married now? I think this is a really important question.100% in agreement. koifish: Pay special attention to the middle paragraph!

[koifish]

Thanks for the sage words, everyone.

We had actually gotten to a point prior to the breakup where we were both okay with how the wedding was. At least I think. We made it much smaller and pretty inexpensive. He has a tendency to not say what's bothering him, and rather to expect that I guess. When he finally admitted what was bothering him and why, and I made a concerted effort to put his feelings ahead of any plans, we started to make progress.

He is still acting angry. He won't say anything except he's having a hard time, but he glares at me at work whenever we pass by. I'm wondering if he generally feels like he must bottle things up right now, because he's feeling ambivalent to say the least about the wedding. I'm thinking I should tell him that if he is not comfortable with the wedding and the marriage right now that we can put him off. I know I've been guilty of putting the process of marriage, and the process of various projects ahead of his feelings.

(Don't throw things at me! :-/ ) That's how I was raised. Stuff ahead of people. Appearance ahead of people. I'm learning rapidly about how not to do this. And it's a very good thing.

I would give up the whole wedding shebang in a heart beat just to be close to him and happy with him again.

I'm going to look up the NVC, MrFarFromRight. I was joshing you a little about being harsh. I know you are trying to help.

[koifish]

Well, koifish, you know you weren't happy and were using fantasy as a retreat from your unhappiness, the unworkableness of the relationship, and his shitty, inconsiderate treatment of you.

So, what are you going to do? Get married anyway? The fantasies you may have of that fixing everything or turning the crap into something wonderful will almost certainly never come true, hate to break it to ya.

Thanks for the wake up call, NYCindie and everyone else on this board. I appreciate it so much. It actually has mad a big difference to me.

[NeonKaos]

On the other hand, keep in mind we are strangers and we can't make decisions for you. You have to be able to trust yourself, only you know what is true and relevant.

[koifish]

Well, we talked. More talking, less glaring, which is good. I offered up the wedding postponement and he didn't snap it up, so maybe a desire to get married as planned is still rolling around in his noggin.

We talked about a lot of things that he was specifically angry about, which is lot better than unverbalized undifferentiated anger.

I think it was good.

[MrFarFromRight]

Good for you!

[nycindie]

I offered up the wedding postponement and he didn't snap it up, so maybe a desire to get married as planned is still rolling around in his noggin.

Is that enough for you? Was your goal in talking to him to make sure the wedding takes place, or to make sure he gives you the respect you deserve?

[MindfulAgony]

Well, we talked. More talking, less glaring, which is good. I offered up the wedding postponement and he didn't snap it up, so maybe a desire to get married as planned is still rolling around in his noggin.

We talked about a lot of things that he was specifically angry about, which is lot better than unverbalized undifferentiated anger.

I think it was good.

I hope you can find more time to talk and that you feel comfortable expressing your needs and feelings in a direct but loving way.

[LovingRadiance]

hmmmm,

imho a wedding should be symbolic of a strong commitment already existing. A strong commitment shouldn't be created based on the existence of a wedding.......

[koifish]

I guess that didn't come across quite right. What I meant is that I have sincerely disinvested from the wedding. I want to let the wedding go for right now if it means building a stronger bond with him. I wanted to take pressure off him about the wedding and also show him that I was definitely no longer putting the process of getting married ahead of him.

I was really surprised because despite all his anger, he seemed more unwilling to call off the wedding than I was.

[koifish]

We're not getting married unless and until its happy and wholehearted.

[koifish]

He is persistently angry and it is directed at me. There is stuff that has troubled our relationship in the past and he won't believe when I say I've learned or changed (I have), and won't have enough faith to test out whether I have learned of changed. He traps me with verbal tricks. When he thinks I should know piece of information and don't, he refuses to share with me. Asks if I remember a vague something earlier in the conversation. When I don't know what he's talking about, he accuses me of not listening "like always". He says that I subconsciously forget things in order to gain advantage in an argument. (Absurd).

His anger towards me seems to surround the idea that I supposedlyhold him entirely responsible for my unhappiness in our threesome. I told him that I should have defended my own happiness better, but that he allowed a distance where he did not see the degree of my unhappiness very clearly. This angers him. He will admit to a small and defiantly unspecified responsibility in the matter, but any attempt on my part to assign him any responsibility for my negative experience gets conflated with "blaming him for everything."

He says my shortcomings with our relationship were the same before and during the threesome. My insistence that my behavior that helped create distance between us during the threesome was actually directly related to the circumstances of the threesome only elicits anger and disbelief. I keep insisting that I had trouble being close to him and them in large part because I was stressed and unhappy and we spent a great deal of time with our third. This is met with scorn and disbelief.

Broken plate flung against the wall. Slammed door. By him. What you think?

He reconfirmed tonight that he loves me and wants to be with me.

I made an appointment with a therapist next week. I'm going. I hope he'll come with me.

[BlackUnicorn]

Have you thought about a temporary split to give you both some breathing room? Dealing with getting married, breaking up and coming out all at the same time just really isn't bringing the best in your fiance to the fore.

[koifish]

How does a temporary split differ from a permanent one? Is it really possible to split temporarily?

[BlackUnicorn]

I was thinking more in terms of physically splitting into two separate apartments than terminating the relationship.

[AutumnalTone]

Broken plate flung against the wall. Slammed door. By him. What you think?



I think adding a third person to the mix of a troubled relationship isn't going to be good for anything.

I think getting married when the relationship is obviously not solid isn't going to be good for anything other than a quickie divorce.

Until each of you has a better grasp on your own shit to where you can figure out how to play nicely with each other, there's not much good to come of anything.

[koifish]

Well, folks, I am actually now at peace with telling everyone the wedding has been postponed. It is some of the only peace I have know in the last month.

As we barreled towards our wedding date, my fiance persisted in drinking to the point of drunkenness every day. He was emotionally unavailable and totally unaffectionate. He's depressed. He knew it was exacerbating the depression and he kept on with it, even after we had talked about it.

Day before yesterday, I got upset about it again, and said that it was not fair to me or to our relationship or to our impending marriage for him to keep on drinking and not be present with me and not resolve anything. He was pissed but when he woke up the next day he apologized for being a mess, and for drinking and vowed to stop drinking and accept help for his depression from me.

Then last night, former GF called him up and asked him to go out for a drink and he didn't think to ask me along until I said it bugged me. (In all fairness, I actually don't drink, but often just go along for the ride). So I said I really couldn't go because I had so much stuff that needed to be done for the wedding. (I have been carrying nearly all the burden of prepairing for the wedding due to his depression and also lingering guilt about having been not that great to him in the earlier planning process)

I didn't expect this response in myself, but when he got home, it bugged me significantly that he was out with our ex-GF while things were not kosher at home. Not that I think that they would get up to anything. I just wanted him home, emotionally present with me on the first night he promised to stop drinking. I don't really feel okay with them seeing each other one on one until things are good between me and him.

The thing with my fiance is that he is very very very sensitive to feeling pushed around or required to do something, due to issues with family and others during his childhood and adolescence.

So, I want a verbalized commitment that he won't see her one on one until things are square between he and I. Instead he wants me to be satisfied with him saying that it will solve the problem when he and I are happy again. Unwilling to make the verbal commitment because it is "coerced", he wanted to have me accept something more general.

I don't think I coerced him or did anything unusual. I said it would hurt my feelings for him to see ex-GF under these circumstances, and that I just needed to hear him say he wouldn't.

He became hurt and angry. He wanted empathy for me, but I had little to give, because inside my head, I was going "this is ridiculous". Why should I have to tiptoe around this sensitivity like this? It's not reasonable. Why should his exagerated need to feel completely uncoerced outweigh what I feel is a really legitimate desire on my part for him to specifically say that because it matters to me, because it would hurt my feelings for him to do so, that he will take a break from seeing ex-GF.

It seems so easy. It was so hard.

In retrospect, I might not have pushed so hard on this point in light of the fact that he was already working on his depression, but I felt our wedding day looming. Already a lot of alarming things have surfaced about his behavior under stress and grief situations. And when he started doing this, I was like fuck it, add this to the stuff you are working on.

This is why I reached the point of being at peace with postponing the wedding. Too little time to fix stuff like this. Too Much Pressure.

Now he is super mad, refusing to do things that might help his depression, barely speaking to me. Basically back to wallowing, although so far minus the alchohol.

Are my behavior or thoughts crazy? Help give me some perspective. Please.

Ps. ex-GF is not a cowgirl, and fiance doesn't intend to leave me for her.

[Magdlyn]

He vowed to stop drinking and work on his issues, and yet he decided to go out that very night for a drink with his "ex" gf?

Man, that is so not good. There's all kinds of disconnect there. Thank goodness you decided not to go ahead with getting married. This is the worst case of cold feet I've ever heard of!

[vodkafan]

He doesn't seem grown up enough to get married. It seems like you can verbalise your concerns and construct your arguments very well. Whereas he cannot, and resorts to sulking and getting angry.
But the drinking is the very worse thing he is doing. Don't marry a drunk. Don't even waste any breath arguing with an angry drunk. Don't waste your life. He may be a great bloke without the drink, but first you need him free of the drink. He has to do that.

[nycindie]

If I were you, I would walk away from the relationship altogether until he's sober and has his depression handled, whether through meds or therapy or whatever. He could use some tough love!!! You can't do it for him.

From what you've told us, this seems like a very toxic situation for you. And you are enabling him by being so understanding and putting up with his crazy bullshit. I suggest you go and check out Al-Anon meetings (http://www.al-anon.alateen.org/for-spouses-and-partners) and connect with other people who live with loved ones who have addictions or out-of-control behavior. Sad how you see yourself as having been pushing him too hard. You're too close to the situation to see it clearly enough. It doesn't look like that from here!

http://www.al-anon.alateen.org/for-spouses-and-partners

[MrFarFromRight]

He is persistently angry and it is directed at me. There is stuff that has troubled our relationship in the past and he won't believe when I say I've learned or changed (I have), and won't have enough faith to test out whether I have learned of changed. He traps me with verbal tricks. When he thinks I should know piece of information and don't, he refuses to share with me. Asks if I remember a vague something earlier in the conversation. When I don't know what he's talking about, he accuses me of not listening "like always". He says that I subconsciously forget things in order to gain advantage in an argument. (Absurd). [...] He says my shortcomings with our relationship were the same before and during the threesome. My insistence that my behavior that helped create distance between us during the threesome was actually directly related to the circumstances of the threesome only elicits anger and disbelief. I keep insisting that I had trouble being close to him and them in large part because I was stressed and unhappy and we spent a great deal of time with our third. This is met with scorn and disbelief.

Broken plate flung against the wall. Slammed door. By him. What you think?

He reconfirmed tonight that he loves me and wants to be with me.

I made an appointment with a therapist next week. I'm going. I hope he'll come with me.Well, folks, I am actually now at peace with telling everyone the wedding has been postponed. It is some of the only peace I have know in the last month.

As we barreled towards our wedding date, my fiance persisted in drinking to the point of drunkenness every day. He was emotionally unavailable and totally unaffectionate. He's depressed. He knew it was exacerbating the depression and he kept on with it [later] he apologized for being a mess, and for drinking and vowed to stop drinking and accept help for his depression from me.

Then last night, former GF called him up and asked him to go out for a drink
[...] Why should I have to tiptoe around this sensitivity like this? [...] This is why I reached the point of being at peace with postponing the wedding. Too little time to fix stuff like this. Too Much Pressure.

Now he is super mad, refusing to do things that might help his depression, barely speaking to me. Basically back to wallowing, although so far minus the alchohol.

Are my behavior or thoughts crazy? Help give me some perspective. Please.I've pulled out quite a big chunk in quotes, but really, my following comments are based on the WHOLE of those 2 comments - including the bits that (for reason of space) I erased from the quotes.

First: CONGRATULATIONS on making an appointment with a therapist and postponing the wedding! I mean that really sincerely. Having followed this thread and the one about being outed, I know how much you were looking forward to the wedding, and I think that it took real courage for you to postpone it. The making of the appointment with the therapist proves that you recognise that there's a real problem here that needs resolving. Is it an appointment for you whether he comes or not? Or is it a relationship-counselling session that you made hoping that he would be there with you?

koifish, I really, really don't want you to take this the wrong way, but I think you should consider the possibility that you are more responsible for things going sour than you've admitted to yourself.

THIS IS NOT MY OPINION!!! I honestly have no opinion. But I happen to know that no therapy has a chance of success if the client (patient) isn't willing to consider accepting responsibilties not admitted before.

I can't - none of us on this board can - form a balanced, fair opinion if we don't hear your fiancé's side of the story. And even then it wouldn't be balanced without knowing both of you (and seeing how you are together).

From PERSONAL experience I can tell you that your [my] failure to "remember a vague something earlier in the conversation" might be a subconscious wish on your [my] part not to look a certain truth right in the eye... a truth that is important to him [was important to my partner].

Having said all that, I'm going to swap sides now and say that - from what you write - it really seems to me that he has to work on his shit.

It looks like he is even more concerned than you about "what will our friends say?!" (and that is NO reason to go ahead with the wedding until you're 100% sure). As Magdlyn wrote:He vowed to stop drinking and work on his issues, and yet he decided to go out that very night for a drink with his "ex" gf?VERY iffy!!! Even if we remove the gf, thusly:He vowed to stop drinking, and yet he decided to go out that very night for a drink?[my added bolface], it still seems iffy to me!

Throwing plates against walls then slamming doors, shoving all the blame on you, leaving all the wedding preparations to you and then getting angry because you want to postpone the wedding until you work together on the problems that you're going through...

Believe me koifish, and I write this with all the kindness at my disposal:
a) If it all works out well between the 2 of you, if you clear up these outstanding issues and grow together through this, you will never regret having postponed the wedding in order to do so.
b) If - on the other hand - you don't clear up these issues and you break off your engagement - or even your relationship - (while crying your eyes out), you will look back on all this one day and THANK YOUR LUCKY STARS that you didn't go ahead with a wedding that would have brought disaster to BOTH of you.

[NeonKaos]

I have a question for you Koifish:

Are you ONLY "at peace" with postponing the wedding, or have you ACTUALLY postponed the wedding?

[koifish]

Thanks for the replies, everyone.

I only became sure I wanted to postpone the wedding today. I brought it up to my fiance this evening. He was non-committal as far as what he wanted to do.

He didn't actually say he would stop drinking, he said he would stop abusing alcohol and scale it back to 1-2 drinks per night.

As far as who is to blame for the current mess. The truth is we both played roles in it coming to this point. I allowed us to be in a triad when it wasn't right for me. I felt alienated from the triad I went along with a did not want, and became distant from my fiance. And he became close to GF, so that when we parted, the pain was extremely intense for him.

I was a shit sometimes with the wedding planning. Not all the time, but enough. I didn't listen to him enough and would escape into it because I was unhappy with the triad, but kept with the triad without seeing a clear way to be happier in it. I didn't want to deny him what he wanted, but I should have stood up for what I wanted better.

He would be profoundly unreliable and uncommunicative with the wedding planning ostensibly because he felt alienated from it due to my behavior. He would make repeated commitments and let them pass without saying or doing anything. My keyed-upness about the wedding was exacerbated by his behavior.


The thing is that I have made numerous heartfelt apologies for my part in this. There were things I carried from childhood that were dysfunctional. I have made large and permanent changes in my behavior. I consider myself lucky to have learned these things about myself and to have had some success in fixing them.

He was cruel to me after the breakup with GF. Angry and mean. He drank himself silly even though he knows it can make him argumentative and angry. Even after the anger passed, he drank to the point where we couldn't relate enough to have a relationship. He drank when he knew it was making his depression worse.

He did this with the knowledge that our wedding was only weeks away. Now he is barely speaking to me. Angry.

He view that his inability to give a simple verbal commitment that he won't hang out with ex-GF until things are good between us, because doing so (on pain of my feelings being super-hurt) constitutes me forcing him, concerns me. I see it as his dysfunction recast as my insensitivity.

I would feel much better if he would cop to it being kinda dysfunctional, if difficult for him to deal with currently.

"From PERSONAL experience I can tell you that your [my] failure to "remember a vague something earlier in the conversation" might be a subconscious wish on your [my] part not to look a certain truth right in the eye... a truth that is important to him [was important to my partner]."


Mrfarfromright, the thing is that he only made vague allusions to the bit of information he wanted me to recall. I wasn't sure what he was talking about and he "trapped" me and claimed that I wasn't listening, like I "never listen." It seemed sort of game, the kind that makes sense when you are drunk and angry.

[koifish]

Ps, to anyone wondering how I persisted in being a jerk about the wedding to my fiance as late in the game as I did: I actually didn't know what he wanted or needed exactly because he would either care-take me into feeling okay, even if he did not himself feel okay, or otherwise remain mum on the subject. Or just do really mysterious behavior like avoiding talking about or doing things he had committed to for the wedding. He avoided any really frank or complete discussion of this behavior, though I would demand answers when it upset me enough. Late in the game, but prior to the breakup with ex-GF, he got really really mad at me finally. And I listened up, and took everything to heart and started working on big changes in myself. And I am an improved person for it.

[nycindie]

If only you could see how much you beat yourself up and blame yourself for things that were not really your fault. Yes, we all have responsibility for the parts we play in relationships, but you are really not seeing clearly just how manipulative and disrespectful your fiance has been toward you. I hope you do look into Al-Anon, as I suggested earlier. It may help you to stop thinking so little of yourself.

[MrFarFromRight]

I only became sure I wanted to postpone the wedding today. I brought it up to my fiance this evening. He was non-committal as far as what he wanted to do.You are now sure that you want to postpone the wedding?
He doesn't know what he wants?
Is your attitude: "Hey, Babes, we have to decide this thing!"?

I'm ALL for joint decisions. But the time is going to come (maybe has already come) when you'll have to say to him: "OK, this is the score: The way things are now, it would be insane to get married. You want to get married to me before we resolve all this? Go ahead and do it, I'm not stopping you... but I AM NOT getting married to you. That's MY decision!"

Sorry, koifish, I honestly don't want to spoil your relationship with him, but this is YOUR future LIFE we're talking about here. Decide what YOU want and what YOU need. Don't accept default settings!

[koifish]

Yup, the time will very soon come for me to say that no matter what he is thinking or wants to commit to, I cannot marry him on that day. I wanted it to be mutual for the sake of future possibilities in our relationship. I wanted to wait until after the therapy session that I hope he will join me in. I'm going to the therapist whether he is or not.

I'll check out Al-Anon. I will go today if I can.

[MrFarFromRight]

koifish, I think that you should be proud of yourself for the giant steps you're willing to take. I wish you all the best.
hug!!!