A Mono walking the POLY journey

[CaptainKIDD23]

Where to begin.. I am 39 and my wife is 36. We have been married for 14 years and together for 18. It has been a closed-monogamous for all that time. We have 3 children, 1 girl and 2 boys (8,10,13). Our marriage has been very happy and successful. It still is. We've always had date nights, as much as we love and adore our kids we've made it a point to prioritize our marriage (for the sake of the kids) over our role as parents. This has meant date nights every week, weekend getaways without the kids every few months and the occasional vacation without the kids. Even thouigh our relationship and marriage has always been smooth sailing, we've always saw a marriage therapist. Not due to any serious problem, just the value we saw in it in terms of getting an objective 3rd party and as a way of maintaing the health of our relationship... You can always learn more!

As far as I am concerned, I am one of those rare people who have been able to maintain a feeling of newness in our relationship. Sure it is not as intense as it was earlier in our marriage/relationship, but it is still there. Of course it is coupled with a deep sense of security and bondedness as well.. My wife has some times struggled however, not due to the lack in our marriage, but because she has always felt that monogamy was too limited, she felt she needed more people in her life for emotional, relational and sexual reasons. She said that it wasn't because of what I failed to give her, it is what she feels she can give and cannot because of monogamy.

She has respected the fact that I am a MONO person. Partly because of the way I am wired, partly because of the experiences I have lived. I have never dated anyone other than my wife. I have always been very heavy, struggling with binge eating since I was in my early teens. Bullying throughout my childhood connected to weight issues has damaged my self worth. MY parents marriage (physical & emotional abuse) and the way it ended (divorce and infidelity) was a very traumatic event for me. I am terrified of it happening to me. I dread a divorce, and fear (at times) not being enough for my wife. I struggle with Jealousy and fear of abandonment and loss. The idea of any open marriage, sometimes even hearing that my wife desires another man on occassion triggers intense emotions of rage, jealousy, insecurity and fears of abandonment. I rarely act on it or discuss these feelings with her, because I do not want to become a burden to her. I want to be confident within myself to have full disclosure and honesty in my marriage.

In September 2010, my wife went back to school to pursue her dream of becoming a Nurse. I have encouraged her to do so for a while now, and it wasn't until now when the children are old enough to be a bit more independant that she allowed her self to pursue this dream. I've been more than willing to do more around the house and take on more hours at work in order to help her pursue this.. She has been such a wonderful wife and mother, and I would do anything to show her how much I love her and to demonstrate my gratitude for her being in my life. I am happy she is doing this for herself.

It started near the end of september that she began speaking of a fellow student that is in her class. I will call him OG (other guy). OG is 23. Naturally my wife and he have a common interest and goal in mind right now, in that they are both wanting to become nurses. Since September they have spent many of their lunch times together and gotten together to study etc. It was clear by October 2010 that she had developed strong feelings for him, and that is when her and I started seriously discussing POLY and opening our marriage.

At first I was hesitant, and started feeling some deep anger at OG, started crying more and feeling some jealousy and fearing my wife would leave me for this younger guy who she seems to have more in common with (right now at least). My wife has been patient and has re-assured me that her growing feelings and attraction to OG is because of OG, not because of any lack on my part. She loves me as she always does. She said that she would be willing end contact with OG if that would make me feel safe and secure again.

I wanted that to happen, but I could see how much pleasure and joy she was experiencing in this new friendship in her life. So I gave the go ahead, I said that if she wanted to see where this relationship with OG went, then she had my blessing... To say that, to open our marriage like that just gutted me. I almost felt like passing out.. I could hardly sleep for a week after I said that, I had dreams about my wife with OG.

The week after we had the discussion, she had her first date with OG. She assurred me that it was non-sexual. I trust her. Since then, her and OG have had one night a week (Friday) she calls "OG NIGHT", where they have their date night.

Their relationship turned sexual near the end of January.. This was also the same night my wife and I explored the possibility of her having a night at OG's place (Friday).. The pattern being that she goes to OG right from college, and she comes home late morning Saturday after they've had breakfast.. Staying the night and my wife's sexual relationship with OG has been the most recent development.. Since then, not much new has been added.

This is getting long, but I felt this was needed to explain the back ground of how things got to where they are now.. I'll post again shortly to talk about some of my experiences with this now, some of my emotions surrounding this situation and how we are working this out now since it has been ongoing and some kind of a regular pattern between my wife and OG have developed.. I have some strong feelings about it, both negative and positive and I just need a few minutes to collect my thoughts so I can post a more succint message next time.

[CaptainKIDD23]

For the last two months, since the end of January 2011, the relationship between OG and my wife have been sexual, and has been following a regular pattern which has not changed much. Obviously she would be seeing him everyday at college.. To be expected, at least for next 3 years anyway. The Friday date night has continued since it began in October 2010, and my wife's staying over at OG's place on Friday night has been ongoing since the end of January.... For some reason, OG and my wife have been comfortable with that, and niether have been expecting or wanting more time together

Now I'll explain some of my feelings and reactions about all of this:

POSITIVE:

I have met OG on several occassions, and he seems like a very nice man. Just meeting him has put many of my fears concerning him to rest. Sure he is younger than me (which bothers me), but he is no where near the image of perfection I was expecting. he is good looking, but far from some hollywood ideal. He is in good shape, but more in a natural sense. He is definitely not an athletic jock type (another fear). He seems to treat my wife with respect..

OG and I have talked on the phone several times, where we've talked about being the two men in my wife's life in a romantic and sexual way. He has assurred me that he respects my role as my wife's husband, primary and life partner. He says that even though he would prefer to have a more central role in my wife's life, meaning in a V with her and I, he understands that my relationship with my wife comes first so he has not broached the subject with my wife.

My wife has actually been a loving mother and a more mindful and engaged wife. Some how the NRE she has been experiencing with OG has a positive impact on us. She says the feelings she gets from being with OG energizes her to be a better mother and wife.. Our sex life has always been a central part of my wife and my relationship, however since OG it has picked up even more. Some of the best sex we've had is when she comes home after spending Friday night at OG's... She says she wants me to know that I have not been replaced, that her love and desire for me has not lessened. That she is still my wife and she is not going anywhere.


NEGATIVE:

I admit to feeling some negative emotions surrounding this as well...

I feel some intense resentment towards OG, even though I kind of like the guy. Friday use to my wife and my date night, however Friday works the best for OG and in order to have any real chance of growing a relationship with OG, my wife and my date night got moved to Saturday. Which is not a huge problem, but does feel unfair. It feels like it should be the other way around, that OG should FIT into our lives and not ther other way around.

I find it painful (emotionally) to make love to my wife. When I look into her eyes I almost cry at times. Since we were both virgins when we married, the only other man she could have been sexual with has been OG. Looking into her eyes and knowing that she has seen another man naked just guts me. What is she thinking about when she is with me? Does she think of me or him? Who does she recieve more pleaure from?

My wife and I have talked about this, and her truth and honesty (In keeping with full disclosure and having no secrets in our marriage) have been gut wrenching to hear. She admits to finding the sexual relationship with OG to be more intense and enjoyable than with me. She agree's that part of what atrracts her to OG is his age, and that does make a difference when they have sex. His penis is larger than mine and he can maintain sexual involvement for longer than I. She admits to thinking about OG often times when we are making love... Which has been ego shattering to hear. Knowing that sends me into an internal rage againgst OG. Instead of OG being a guy who my wife also loves, he starts to seem like a guy my wife prefers over me.. It hurts so much. But I would rather face my insecurities head on than live in fear of them... My wife assures me that there are many things I provide that OG cannot. She lists my sense of humour, me being well read in a variety of subjects, and my conversational ability.... I am also a wonderul father... Not great compensation for me, after hearing my wife prefers OG sexually.

My therapist has suggested (with my wife's agreement) that I explore the possibility of doing some dating on my own. That maybe having something on the side would help me... The problem is my weight, I feel I don't have the same opportunities to meet women as my wife does men. Part of my writing off the possibility of meeting and dating other women is because my self doubt and bad body image (I am obese), and a track record going back to my early teens of always being in unrequited love scenarios that has NEVER worked out for me (except for my wife of course).

Bottom line, I don't khow this is all going to play out. Sometimes I feel happy for my wife, some times I feel rage and extreme jealousy and resentment towards OG and am tempted to pull the plug on this whole POLY thing. Sometimes I feel closer to OG because we both love and are being loved by the same woman, at other times I resent the amount of time they spend together (5 days a week at school, Friday nights and Saturday mornings etc.)... That is where I am at right now. Sorry for being so long winded. I'll be glad to respond to questions that you have. Any input or advice would be appreciated.

P.S.: Next to my children, my wife and my career, my great passion in life is music (both listening and playing instruments). My favourite musical act is Great Big Sea, which is a Newfoundland folk/rock group. My screen name CaptainKIDD23 is the name of a traditional newfie folk song (Captain Kidd) that GBS does.. Just wanted to put that out there because GBS is something I am almost evangelistic about.. LOL.

[Charlie]

CaptainKidd,

I am often puzzled by descriptions of a "V" in which the two arms are not in close communication, or at least developing their own relationship. My relationship to Rarechild's husband Catfish grows stronger by the day, and the friendship we share is something unlike any other I have ever known. I was pleased to read that you and OG seemed to be getting to know one another better, and it would appear that by doing so, some of your anxieties about him have been relieved, even as new hard truths are told.

You strike me as a highly intelligent man, capable of examining your life without passing judgment on your own emotions. I will be so bold as to say that I believe that you have a heart capable of limitless love. I have no doubt that you are an amazing Father, or that your wife is a fantastic Mother.

With some fear of sounding like I think we know what we're talking about, it may help for you to read our blogs, Catfish's, Rarechild's, and mine. It's all true, I promise, and really encouraging, even as we live it ourselves.

[SNeacail]

My wife and I have talked about this, and her truth and honesty (In keeping with full disclosure and having no secrets in our marriage) have been gut wrenching to hear. She admits to finding the sexual relationship with OG to be more intense and enjoyable than with me. She agree's that part of what atrracts her to OG is his age, and that does make a difference when they have sex. His penis is larger than mine and he can maintain sexual involvement for longer than I. She admits to thinking about OG often times when we are making love... Which has been ego shattering to hear. Knowing that sends me into an internal rage againgst OG. Instead of OG being a guy who my wife also loves, he starts to seem like a guy my wife prefers over me.. It hurts so much. But I would rather face my insecurities head on than live in fear of them... My wife assures me that there are many things I provide that OG cannot. She lists my sense of humour, me being well read in a variety of subjects, and my conversational ability.... I am also a wonderul father... Not great compensation for me, after hearing my wife prefers OG sexually.

STOP, STOP, STOP insisting that your wife give you a detailed comparison. What you described here goes beyond "no secrets" and heads into the invation of OG's privacy. IMO their actual sex life is NON of your business, just as the sex life of your wife and yourself is non of OG's business. Leave it as the sex is different. If you and OG want to stand side by side and have a pissing match, and make comparisons fine, but don't ask your wife to be the go-between.

----

Oh WOW, that came out a little harsh. Sorry! Note to self, don't post before having my morning coffee.

[MonoVCPHG]

You are not alone in the area of maintaining that "newness" feeling when looking at your long term partner. There is research involving mapping brain activity of long term partners that actually shows people are different when it comes to this. I'm the same way :)

It sounds to me that you guys are doing things pretty damn well! You're level of honesty is unbelievable and admittedly more than I would want.

I can relate a little to the pain you feel at the idea of your wife thinking about another guy during sex. I think this is quite common in people but usually it is a fantasy person so it seems less impacting.

I have not traditionally recommended people who are struggling consistantly to explore their own outside relationships but my mind is changing on that. But if you are wired mono you run the risk of breaking your intimate connection with your wife. Is she open to you finding some one having one?

I think you are a strong and supportive husband and man. Welcome to the forum:)

Mono

[redpepper]

She told you all that?! Bah, that is so unfair and not for you to know I think... that is private stuff and the content more to do with NRE than anything else... of course it is all awesome with him, he is new... in time these things are more about difference in terms of the fact that the two of you are just DIFFERENT!

I know it is hard not to think of it, but you are just as hot, just as desirable and just as awesome as him, regardless of age and stage and anything else for that matter. You don't need to go out and find a girlfriend to find that out.

WHAT! a therapist told you that? That is such bullshit, sorry, therapists should tell clients anything like that I don't think (I am a therapist). What you need to find is inside of you and you have a TON of stuff to work on... your childhood alone is a good place to start. It's all inside you. You are your own primary and you should be looking within to get the confidence you need. She can't give you that, and no one else can either. Only you can do that...

I'm so sorry she said those things to you. That was WAY out of the realm of okay. That is really very damaging to even the most confident of people.

I think she shot herself in the foot by telling you those things... now she has a shit load of work to do to prove to you that you are worthy. She owes you a massive apology I think and a whole lot of sucking up!

[Penny]

Cock size really isn't a big deal. I should know, I was with a guy with an 11" cock for about a year. Thing was thick as my forearm. Once I got used to it, it was not a big deal.

Much of this is the NRE. Unless you have a micro-penis or your wife is loose and needs to do some Kegels, it's mostly in her head.

[redpepper]

Its all in the attitude and confidence. Again, this is why I think working on your own issues in the form of personal work is your best bet. Adding a girlfriend to the mix? Just a recipe for more drama and more hardship if your primary relationship doesn't have a strong and stable foundation... it sounds like there is some work to do on your foundation.

[CaptainKIDD23]

Thank you all so much for your feedback and encouragement. It is very much appreciated. So far I am loving the vibe on this message board and I am sure it will be a great resource and support as a continue to walk this new path... Let me respond to some of what has been written and clarify some things.

Redpepper: Thank you for the kind words.. But in all fairness to my wife, I do have to say that what she said was not due insensitivity on her part. Those things have been revealed to me over the previous 2 months and wasn't dumped on me all at once. Her honesty was also in keeping with the 18 year history of our relationship/marriage. Even when our marriage was an exclusive-closed-monogamous entity, we operated on the principle of radical honesty and fuill disclosure. It was common for both of us to discuss in great detail with each other our crushes, attractions and sexual fantasies that included other people, while still being monogamous.. The unexpected difference has been that this time, the radical honesty was actually describing a real person who was actually having sex with my wife and who my wife seems to have some deepening feelings for.. Radical honesty before was about accountability and maintaining monogamy, now it's about sharing what is actually happening, so my emotional reaction was somewhat unexpected and painful... My wife has been very patient and sensitive to my emotional state and my comfort level and sense of security in the relationship.

SNeacail: Thank you for the response and for your opinion... I guess I would simply say that my wife has been very clear to OG that in our marriage we operate on the principle of radical honesty, that nothing that her and I do needs to or should be hidden from each other. This includes sexual and romantic relationships with other men/women. He understood this and has pursued a relationship with my wife anyway. OG also understands that the principle of radical honesty only applies within my wife and my marriage, and he is not owed information about my wife and my relationship that both myself and my wife has agreed to share... This may seem unfair and unbalanced, but it is what has been working for us. Should there be a time when wisdom, my comfort level with poly and with OG prompt a re-negotiation, this is the way it will continue to be until that point.. Thank you again for your response.

[Indigomontoya]

My wife and I have talked about this, and her truth and honesty (In keeping with full disclosure and having no secrets in our marriage) have been gut wrenching to hear. She admits to finding the sexual relationship with OG to be more intense and enjoyable than with me. She agree's that part of what atrracts her to OG is his age, and that does make a difference when they have sex. His penis is larger than mine and he can maintain sexual involvement for longer than I. She admits to thinking about OG often times when we are making love... Which has been ego shattering to hear. Knowing that sends me into an internal rage againgst OG. Instead of OG being a guy who my wife also loves, he starts to seem like a guy my wife prefers over me.. It hurts so much. But I would rather face my insecurities head on than live in fear of them... My wife assures me that there are many things I provide that OG cannot. She lists my sense of humour, me being well read in a variety of subjects, and my conversational ability.... I am also a wonderul father... Not great compensation for me, after hearing my wife prefers OG sexually.

Um wow. Ok so number one stop her giving you comparisons. It's not healthy for either of you...it's just hurtful. I don't think this will end well if it keeps up because now you're in direct competition by HER doing and in her eyes. If she loved you and cared about your feelings she wouldn't have done the comparison, at least vocally to begin with...

[Derbylicious]

Um wow. Ok so number one stop her giving you comparisons. It's not healthy for either of you...it's just hurtful. I don't think this will end well if it keeps up because now you're in direct competition by HER doing and in her eyes. If she loved you and cared about your feelings she wouldn't have done the comparison, at least vocally to begin with...

^this. There's a difference between honesty and saying things that you know will be hurtful. There are always ways to say things that show comapssion. Even if she had said something about liking doing XY and Z with the OG it would have been less hurtful than to say to you that she enjoyed sex with him more. Sex with different people is just different, not better or worse, just newer and more comfortable.

[nycindie]

Hi Cap'n,
What I find interesting in your posts is that you say you are committed to completely being honest with each other... and yet:
I dread a divorce, and fear (at times) not being enough for my wife. I struggle with Jealousy and fear of abandonment and loss. The idea of any open marriage, sometimes even hearing that my wife desires another man on occassion triggers intense emotions of rage, jealousy, insecurity and fears of abandonment. I rarely act on it or discuss these feelings with her, because I do not want to become a burden to her.

Maybe she would have been a bit more careful in telling you how she felt if you had really expressed to her the depth of your fears, rage, and jealousy. Just sayin'.

[redpepper]

Just to echo a bit here. It's in the way things are said that is the key. Radical honesty is so important... I am a strong advocate for that, BUT, that doesn't mean that purpose and compassion go out the window. What was her purpose in sharing that your cock is smaller etc? If she has has known you for that long, would she not then know that it is probably not a good idea to give some details that could hurt your sense of worth and confidence?

Okay, don't get me wrong. I am not a saint in this department. I tell it like it is and have been told several times... well more than that, that details are not necessary in situations like yours. Mono for one has been very hurt by my telling him details of my sex life with the tersiary I have. He didn't want to know and I was so not catching that until he said so. Perhaps this is what happened here. We all have a learning curve on these things I think.

I hope that you will consider what else I said and get that therapist of yours to concentrate on YOUR issues rather than convincing you to get a girlfriend to even up the scare. It's a common idea, but really not advisable.

[CaptainKIDD23]

@Redpepper, Thanks for the response. I am seeing two therapists right now, one is connected to my DBT group (borderline). I discuss with him personal issues, and ways this poly thing is triggering my fears of abandonment and other apsects of my BPD. My wife and I also see a marriage therapist (who identifies as poly-friendly), and rarely if ever do I go too deep into my past or into my issues with marriage therapist. But obviously they come up, just not as much as in my DBT group... I think my marriage counselor suggested the girl friend angle, after I said that I am not sure if I am wired MONO or do I feel MONO because of insecurity, jealousy and abandonment issues. One is about what comes natural, the other is about what I am not considering due to fear... BUT I agree with 100% btw, one of the reasons I have not jumped into dating other women si because I am not fully aware of my motives. Am I merely trying to be an "even-handed-poly", meaning if she gets another relationship, so do I, and I won't feel good until the relationship balance is even? If thats the case, then cleary my motives are unhealthy.. Until I sort this out, I refuse to pursue another woman in a relationship... Thank you so much for your input.. You seem to offer a lot of wisdom and insight. Thank you!

[CaptainKIDD23]

UPDATE:

I just wanted to share an experience that happened this Saturday morning, that has moved us deeper into a poly relationship.

My 3 children were at my brothers place for the weekend, so my wife and I made plans to get out of town for the weekend.. Drive into the country, get a decent hotel room and order room service, go dancing etc. That type of thing.

I picked her up at OG's at around 9 AM Saturday morning. OG met me at the door and invited me in for breakfast.. At first it felt uncomfortable, but I decided to push through the discomfort. It wasn't long until I was completely at ease. While my wife was in the shower, OG prepared breakfast and we talked.. Mainly sports.. But OG also came across as an expert in my line of work (immigration law). Much of the conversaton, even after my wife joined us for breakfast was about my career. He seemed well informed. My wife latter told me that OG takes a real interest in people, and one time she mentioned to him what I did for a job, and next time she saw him he had been reading about it.. I admit, maybe this is self centred for me to say, but this helped me to warm up to him.

Near the end of breakfast, in a very natural way , the conversation turned to my wife and OG's relationship. It wasn't forced or insensitive, just natural feeling. It was the first time we all actually discussed it together. It felt comfortable.. OG repeated a few times, that he and my wife want to go at a pace that I am comfortable with.. This comforted me... They then explained to me about whrre they were at with everything.

According to them, about 3 weeks ago they had "fluid bonded" (I don''t really know what that means). They had fluid bonded both orally and in the traditional way (vaginal/penetratiive).. They said that this was a very intense experience for them both, and since this started my wife had been wanting to talk to me about adding OG into our life in a deeper way.

My wife and I already agreed that until my youngest child (8 years old) has moved out, we will not disrupt the living arrangements by moving out of our house or moving someone in. OG understands this, and seems fine with it. My wife says that since fluid bonding with OG, she is starting think of him as not just a boyfriend or a secondary, but as a life partner who she is every bit as committed to as she is with me. Because of this, she feels that if OG were connected to the family that it would aid in normalizing their relationshp, both in my mind, in the minds of our children and every one else in our lives.

We agreed that an initial first step would be to have OG over every other Wednesday during family night at our place. This Wednesday OG is coming over for the night, where we will be ordering in pizza, eating popcorn and watching Tangled together.. OG even suggested that he bring the Pizza, as if that might help the children to indentify with him as one of the group... The purpose of this night is NOT be another date for my wife and OG, but rather as a bonding experience for my family and OG... I feel comfortable with this.. I am not prepared to have him over EVERY family night, but every other family night would be infrequent enough for me to feel comfortable, but frequent enough to help my wife and OG's relationship become more normalized in the minds of my children... Does this make sense?

There is one more thing I wanted to discuss about Saturday morning. I think I had my first moment of compersion, but as I am at work and this post is getting long, I shall post about this latter today.. Thank you.

[TruckerPete]

Wait, back up ... they fluid-bonded without your consent??

[CaptainKIDD23]

@TruckerPete, Yes they did... But I'm not sure whether this is relevant or not. Mainly because from the start of this relationship with OG, I've wanted to take a comfortable middle ground between micro-managing their relationship on one hand, and throwing the door wide open with no discussion for boundaries. Our only "rule" when it came to sex was that OG be STD free (which he is) and that there should be a policy of full disclosure and radical honesty if asked for... We never discussed the specifics of sexual acts such as fluid bonding. To be honest it bothers me no more or no less than any random thought of my wife having sex with another man. By that I mean, I already knew they were having sex and that was enough to create some jealousy and discomfort me. Merely asserting that they fluid bonded does not add to my discomfort... The fact they she feels as committed to OG as she does to me does bother me very much however. It scares the shit out of me actually.

While the fluid bonding itself does not bother me, the fact that she fluid bonded orally does... Since our first child, my wife has refused to perform oral on me. The reason being is that some how anything beyond missionary and a few "vanilla" positions, seems to make her feel anxious and uncomfortable, as if blow jobs and kinky sex violate the "purity" of marriage and her being a mother. She can't be "slutty" for me (her words). She says it is easier for her to explore that with OG because sex with him doesn't bring up a tension between something "pure" and something "vulgar". That bothers me, that she is exploring a side of her sexuality that I am excluded from as her husband, because of her upbringing sex is thought of as bad, and marriage is good, so to mix them seems wrong.. More comfortable for her to live in sexual black&white thinking... Does ths make sense? This has been eating away at me all day..

[Penny]

My earlier cock-size comments were not terribly helpful, I recognize, but there's something about the dynamic between you and your wife which sets me on edge and makes me feel instinctively hostile toward her and defensive toward you.

My gut tells me you are being mistreated and taken advantage of, rather than cherished.

I hope that my voicing this opinion does not cause more harm than good, but her behavior has been neither respectful nor kind, and it strikes me that you are being used.

I should say more and be more specific, but, as a woman who has the honor of having both a husband and a boyfriend, seeing someone else abuse that position makes me unreasonably angry. I know you are trying to accept the situation, but I am not liking what I'm hearing here and it sounds like you are being walked all over. If someone treated my husband like that, I'd scratch their eyes out.

[Penny]

Never discussed the specifics of sex... except for when she tells you that you are inadequate, that she does things with this guy she's unwilling to do with you, that his dick is bigger and he's better in bed...

:mad:

I am not going to say any more at this point because I know it won't be helpful, and it will just make you feel the need to defend her.

[SNeacail]

While the fluid bonding itself does not bother me, the fact that she fluid bonded orally does... Since our first child, my wife has refused to perform oral on me. The reason being is that some how anything beyond missionary and a few "vanilla" positions, seems to make her feel anxious and uncomfortable, as if blow jobs and kinky sex violate the "purity" of marriage and her being a mother. She can't be "slutty" for me (her words). She says it is easier for her to explore that with OG because sex with him doesn't bring up a tension between something "pure" and something "vulgar". That bothers me, that she is exploring a side of her sexuality that I am excluded from as her husband, because of her upbringing sex is thought of as bad, and marriage is good, so to mix them seems wrong.. More comfortable for her to live in sexual black&white thinking... Does ths make sense? This has been eating away at me all day..

I think this is something that needs to be addressed and you should make a concerted effort to correct. The upbringing excuse is bullshit, if she was so tied to her upbringing, there wouldn't be a boyfriend in the picture. That there's a mental block of somekind I have no doubt. I too find it difficult to try and ask for new things with my husband, just because we have such a long history and if it's not something he has asked for I get self concious about what he will think of me or worry that he won't like it or be willing. On the other hand, I have no trouble doing anything new he asks for. There are a few things I know he likes, but I have only done it once or twice and am therefore not confident in my ability so I just don't do it and he doesn't ask for it (probably for the same reason):rolleyes:. Another reason why she shouldn't be sharing such detailed information of her sex life with OG.

[SNeacail]

My gut tells me you are being mistreated and taken advantage of, rather than cherished.

Yeah, I'm starting to get this impression too.

[Carma]

Whoa, girls! I wasn't getting that vibe at all.

KIDD, from what I've read I think you and your wife have a beautiful thing going! My husband, Sundance and I are more about the radical honesty too. (When my mother found out about our V arrangement, she said I was our of my mind to think he would be okay with that. I think she would have been more supportive of me having a secret affair.) She doesn't get it -- I can't keep a secret from my husband. It's hopeless! I LOVE sharing things with him, and even when the truth hurts -- Sundance is a lot more like you, in that, he'd rather have the painful truth, than some watered down version of my feelings. Remember that movie, A Few Good Men, when Nicholson says, "You can't handle the truth!" Well, he had a point there -- some people can't, I mean, be careful what you ask for! But it sounds like you ARE. I think you are a very strong man, and the love between you and your wife is strong, too.

The way you met with the new guy and the two of you got on, I think that is really great.

My husband is falling more in love with my BF every day (in a hetero, Catfish-like way :) ) and it is so cool to see two men growing close like that. I love that by-product of our V. That will help you feel a lot less threatened. The human nature of competion comes into play, but it doesn't have to take over and turn you into sparring animals -- I think the two of you are being the greatest of gentlemen.

The sex is new so naturally there will be some comparisons going on -- but there are so many dimensions to a physical relationship, I think you realize that and know that both relationships can be very, very good and fulfilling to your wife. She is exploring some very interesting things right now (I know, I've been doing a lot of that myself) -- the lessons she learned along the way about sex and love, good and bad, wow, I think it's really cool what she is doing, and I think it's awesome that you are there for the journey. You must really love her -- and she must really know it :)

Penis size and body size -- what really matters is the human touch, period. I think it can all be good, as long as you are open and loving, and I do think you both are.

[Penny]

Please don't call me "girl."

[Carma]

So sorry. I did not mean to offend :(

[Penny]

No, no, my bad. I shouldn't be petty about it. As I said, my gut reaction here is making me unreasonable and it's spilling over into all my responses.

My husband and I also practice radical honesty. I am just not getting the feeling that's what's going on here, at least not from her.

I will have to analyze my own reactions and post something more substantive and logical, but right now my instincts are screaming at me that there's something going on here that just isn't right.

I usually don't go on guts alone, but my reaction is so strongly negative in this case that it is actually difficult for me to analyze and articulate it at this time. I have numerous non-poly-related issues going on in my life atm, which does not help.

Still, I have found that my guts bear listening to, and while I don't want to undermine the OP's progress or potential happiness, I feel it would not be without merit for him to entertain the notion that maybe this situation really isn't okay.

[SNeacail]

I would say that some of the things she has said go beyond radical honesty and have a feeling of deliberate cruelty. It almost sounds like retaliation for long held resentments or such. What do I know?

[Derbylicious]

In the spirit of radical honesty why not talk about becoming fluid bonded BEFORE it happens! This kind of thing is a big deal that anyone sexually involved with any of the parties needs to be informed of so that they can make sexual health decisions for themselves. Just because an STI test came back negative doesn't mean that for sure everything is all good. There are window periods for a lot of STIs when they don't show up on tests. What you get, at best, is a picture of what someone's sexual health status was 6 weeks ago.

I'm not saying that in this case there is a risk of an STI but it is still something that as someone involved you need to know so that you can make your own choices around condom use ect.

[Carma]

Thanks Penny -- I didn't mean to jump on what you'd said as if you were "wrong" and I was "right." It may have come off that way, but it was not intentional. I get what you're saying -- that is one thing I like about the forum -- people will speak from the heart. It is good to consider the perspectives of others, for sure. I know in my own life there are times I can be walking around in some DEEP denial, until someone has said, "Hey! I'm seeing THIS....!"

So many facets, especially when you are grinding yourself into a diamond. It would be so much easier to just stay dull, than to explore the sparkly life of polyamory! Ha!

KIDD, I hope you will keep sharing. Maybe your wife could come on here, too? Sometimes that helps, to have both perspectives. I really like the shared blogs on here. Anyway, hang in there!

[Carma]

I would say that some of the things she has said go beyond radical honesty and have a feeling of deliberate cruelty. It almost sounds like retaliation for long held resentments or such. What do I know?

Hurt people hurt people. I hope this is part of their journey toward more awareness, and healing.

(What does any of us really know, for sure? We're all just speculating here, from the little we get to go on from someone's posts. I think your insights are usually pretty good, SN; I know I've appreciated a lot of things you've said. You too, Penny. In fact, I think anyone who is walking the poly walk themself has a pretty good take on these particular issues. Yay, us! We're all in this together, right? ;))

[SNeacail]

Just because an STI test came back negative doesn't mean that for sure everything is all good. There are window periods for a lot of STIs when they don't show up on tests. What you get, at best, is a picture of what someone's sexual health status was 6 weeks ago.

I believe that there are also some things that aren't normally tested for like HPV and Herpes, probably others.

[redpepper]

Oh man this is not sitting well with me either. It harks of control some how and NRE gone wild. I have the same gut feeling penny.

I appreciate that he is a "nice" guy and made you breakfast Cap'n, but this going WAY to fast to be inviting him over for kid time. How long have they been together?

Sorry, this just kinda creeps me some how. Some how I have it in my head that she is sex happy and he can do no wrong because of it. She has iussues, you have issues and yet this guy is right in there with fluid bonding and family time. It freaks me out.

Still, I'm not you, we don't know her side or his side and really, if she goes by her gut and so do you and this guy is all good in that respect then who am I to say. Really its the issues you've laid out that make me think that this guy is moving in too fast. That was just way too much to decide on over one breakfast.

Why the hell was HE telling you about the fluid bonding and why after three weeks?! Something is just not right to me. I can't help shaking that they are setting you up for her leaving you.

[CaptainKIDD23]

@Redpepper, My wife has known OG since the beginning of September 2010. They have been together since the end of October. They have been sleeping together since the end of January. In all, they have known eachother for 7 months now.

I guess the problem I am having is that I dis-trust my "gut". I am having a hard time deciding whether I am being hurt because my wife is being insensitive, and her relationship with OG is showing problematic red flags OR whether its my BPD and fears of abandonment acting up.... If I went by my "gut", I'd want my marriage to stay monogamous. If my goal was to avoid pain and insecurity I would have asked my wife to keep our traditional marital vows. The way to overcome specific phobias is to face them head on. It is by avoiding fear triggering stimuli that keeps phobias alive, its by ignoring your "gut" and facing your fear that phobias are cured (exposure therapy). I guess what I am trying to sort out, is whether that is a good model for turning a mono-relationship into a poly-relationship... OR am I ignoring insensitivities. By seeking to avoid my jealousy, insecurity and possessiveness, am I also overlooking inconsiderations? On these points I am very, very confused.

[nycindie]

I am alarmed that she and OG went ahead and fluid-bonded without discussing it with you beforehand. Seven months isn't really a long time to be involved before doing that. There are a number of tests that do not get performed unless requested, and many that require regular periodic testing to be (more) sure. Furthermore, she is not just fluid-bonded with him, she is fluid-bonded with the both of you - and that means you are at risk. Taking this drastic step without your knowledge, permission, and investigation of the "facts" (ie., have you seen his test results on paper? How recent were they both tested?) is flagrantly disrespectful to you, and just plain stupid and selfish. "Oh, by the way, we fluid-bonded a few weeks ago." What kind of crap is that??!!! And now you are in a position where, if they won't use protection, you should. Because they expect you to just go on his word, but since they didn't include you in the decision, his word is worthless, as I see it. That is screwed up.

If I were you, I would stand up for myself in the face of this dismissive and idiotic act, and NOT have him in your home interacting with your children until that breach of trust is healed. It is a serious thing they did!

But I think I will speak mostly to your last post.

Her communications to you have been quite unkind, and yes -- it seems there is an element of vengefulness or wanting to punish you somewhere in all this. You are trying to be a nice guy but you are in this poly situation when you really don't want to be. It does not seem like your feelings or need to perhaps move more slowly, were even taken into consideration. And now you are expected to just put up with whatever she wants, while your "seeking to avoid my jealousy, insecurity and possessiveness," as you say, isn't helping you one bit. Besides, avoidance doesn't really work -- ask anyone who drinks or uses drugs to avoid the pain of living. The pain is still there, just buried by addictions, and it never goes away.

You cannot avoid your feelings. The only way they can truly be "vanquished," that is, no longer rule you, is to feel those feelings as they come up, look at them, let your self be with what is, and not try to avoid it all. So, if you're jealous, fuck, that is what you are! It doesn't mean you need to lash out at anyone because of them, but avoiding them only keeps them around. "Whatever you resist, persists, and grows stronger." Once you allow yourself to be just as you are, those rages, insecurities, etc., will complete themselves and you will see things more clearly. Sure, they'll come up again, but the more you practice being okay with your emotional responses, the less power they have over you.

In Journey of the Heart by John Welwood (a book on relationships which I highly recommend), he writes:
"Depending on how we relate to love's pain, it can lead in one of two very different directions. If we regard it as a threat, something to avoid at all cost, we will try to patch it over, keep it out of sight. After a while, however, accumulating patches only deadens our sensitivity and our capacity to love freely. Resenting the pain involved in becoming vulnerable to another person causes us to lose heart or harden our heart, and this cuts off the energetic flow between us.

Yet if we can learn to make use of our pain, it can be an invaluable helper and guide on the path. For it exposes and directs our attention to places inside us where we are shut down, contracted, and half-asleep. If I can move with my pain more fluidly, my rigid defenses start to dissolve and I become more permeable to love's awakening influence. And when I can let my partner see my hurt, instead of hiding it away, where it may fester and poison the relationship, this creates greater intimacy between us.

Of course, nobody wants to feel pain. Yet to become a warrior of the heart--one who is willing to risk being wounded in the service of love--we must be able to use the pain that relationship inevitably brings our way."

Letting someone see your pain is not about whining or making demands, but about being truthful and present. Welwood also says, "Awareness holds no grudge . . . it simply allows us to see what is," and that "trying to find the right way to be" (instead of just being) keeps us from being genuinely present. It's okay not to know what to do or to be uncomfortable. It will pass, eventually. And if your wife can't be present in the face of your pain, then what is she avoiding? Perhaps her whole involvement with OG is an avoidance of something! I found it interesting that you started off this thread by saying "Our marriage has been very happy and successful. It still is." Yet, the more you reveal, the more it seems like there are undercurrents of resentment and festering anger.

You mentioned that both you and your wife are in marriage counseling -- is that in group sessions together, or separately? I think it would behoove you to talk together in therapy about every microtruth of what's going on for you. AND ask her to register here and post her side of the story. We won't bite.

[detritus]

Kidd, have you tried meditation? My husband and I are still new to poly and him dating another woman has triggered a lot of the same fears of abandonment and insecurity that it sounds like you are experiencing. Lately I often feel overwhelmed and like my emotions and intellect are all out of whack--that I can't trust my gut. One thing that's helped me is mindfulness meditation, where I let myself fully experience the fear I'm feeling, without trying to push it away or tell myself a story about it. Sometimes I end up in tears, but usually in the end the fear dies away a little and it all feels a little less overwhelming so I can more easily identify what's an irrational fear and what's a more legitimate problem.

I find it's also helpful to follow my fears to their (usually illogical) end. For example, if he gets ready to leave on a date and I feel abandoned, I fear he likes her more, that he doesn't love me, that I'll never find someone else who does, that I'm irreparably flawed, etc, etc. Even if following my fears that way feels scary, eventually I reach a point where I realize my fears are absurd, that of course I'm loved and loveable and that I just need to find something to do to keep my mind off of it for a few hours. Usually a big hug and kiss when he returns quiets those demons up pretty quick. On the other hand, if you follow your fears and they don't seem so irrational, that's something that you need to discuss more. For example, if I feel insecure about my husband being intimate with someone else and the fears center around her being a better lover or him not loving me as much as he used to--totally my hangups. But if he stopped using protection without informing me first, went out of his way to compare me unfavorably to his new girlfriend, or tried to use his upbringing as a bullshit excuse to perform certain sexual acts with her but not me--doing those things are physically dangerous and/or emotionally cruel. It seems like she's disregarding your safety and emotional well-being because she knows she can get away with it right now because you'll file it under "personal baggage" and continue to put up with it.

[TruckerPete]

It seems like she's disregarding your safety and emotional well-being because she knows she can get away with it right now because you'll file it under "personal baggage" and continue to put up with it.

This, especially.

[Penny]

This, especially.

Yup.

People keep beating me to agreeing with other people. I decided this time to just double agree.

Also, you may not feel confident in trusting your gut, but the guts of numerous people who are pro-polyamory are saying the same thing. I'm married and have a boyfriend, so I have every reason to be on your wife's side, but I don't like what I'm seeing here.

[redpepper]

Also the female hinge of a vee. That's two guts of women in a similar situation. At the very least, is it not worth asking for them to slow down, get tested, and hold off on family time of any sort for another 6 months? Usually NRE is over by then. And ya, use a condom. Keep yourself safe.

[TruckerPete]

Three for female hinge of a vee.

[FlameKat]

my 'vee' may be in spirit only, but I'd like to add my fourth here... especially as mine is in spirit because of the sheer respect i am showing my partner and the other I love.

[Carma]

Another female hinge of a MFM V here. Still seeing things a little less harshly (maybe it's my own baggage?!) Hell, I'm rather new here, too, so I hardly have room to question. I feel a little nervous -- am I being too naive? Maybe KIDD "SHOULD" be more upset about some things, but I don't know, maybe he has a remarkable capacity for forgiveness or compassion? Is his wife abusive, or is she just immature? Is the new guy being a creep or is he genuinely interested in building a friendship? How soon is too soon, to jump into love and/or friendship? I'm asking these things because I admit, I have not always been the most healthy person when it comes to relationships. I sometimes get very confused as to what is healthy and what is not. Sometimes I want a friend so badly, I will overlook some pretty rotten behavior, in the hopes that we can grow together. I have had a lot of trouble in the boundary-setting department, in my life -- but sometimes the way people treat me is the way I TAUGHT them to treat me, so I know much of the work is mine to do. Anyway...

I see your wife making mistakes but I know I made some too. In our V, the three of us are learning as we go -- and some great lessons have been learned, a lot of personal growth and growth in our marriage and our friendships has ensued. We have been called to explore our deepest emotions. There have been tremendous opportunities for truth and forgiveness. And lots of self-examination.

KIDD, please encourage your wife to post. Considering the gut reactions of the others on the forum who have been living polyamorously for much longer, I think she could really use the awareness. There is wisdom here -- maybe she could learn from some of our mistakes, and spare you both a lot of pain.

[Penny]

Another female hinge of a MFM V here.

Wow, there's a lot of us. I mean, I was aware of you guys, but I'd never seen a roll call before. LOL.

Carma, you can be our voice of hope and optimism. :)

[SNeacail]

KIDD, please correct me if I'm wrong, but you seem to be the type that will put up with alot and never say anything until everything becomes completely unbearable. You take peoples crap and write it off as part of your own baggage and insecurities instead of their bad behavior. Trust me this is not helping. Step up and address the problems immediately and early. Stand up for your self before the bad behavior becomes a habit and resentments fester and build. If you address the problem early, you can determine TOGETHER if you are over reacting or she is being insensitive, more than likely it will be a little of both, but it's so much easier to correct at this point.

[Penny]

KIDD, please correct me if I'm wrong, but you seem to be the type that will put up with alot and never say anything until everything becomes completely unbearable. You take peoples crap and write it off as part of your own baggage and insecurities instead of their bad behavior.

This. Plus everything else in that post, but especially this.

[Rarechild]

My husband is falling more in love with my BF every day (in a hetero, Catfish-like way :) ) and it is so cool to see two men growing close like that. I love that by-product of our V.

Oh, snap. You just made my day, Carma. :)
-R

[redpepper]

yay, metamour love... it is the back bone of successful poly relationships I think. :)

[MonoVCPHG]

yay, metamour love... it is the back bone of successful poly relationships I think. :)

Agreed :)

[Vexxed]

I'm replying a bit late to this thread, but CaptainKidd I'd like to express my opinion.

First, I like the level of radical honesty about sex that has occurred between you and your wife. I prefer to be told those same things that she told you. Now, part of my sexuality is that I'm submissive in some ways, and I'm into Hot Wife / Cuckold fantasies. Yes, I'm a bit jaded, but I'm not alone. There are many other guys that feel compersion (actually get off on) their partner having great sex with a well endowed guy. One of the online places such guys can be found at is http://ourhotwives.org/forum/

I agree with the others that she should consider you a bit more. I also agree that not discussing "fluid bonding" before hand seems selfish on their part. Although, she may have known that you are not all that concerned about bare penetration. I know that it was a smaller issue for some of the married people that I had threesomes with in the past.

From my perspective, it seems like you have the perfect "hot wife" arrangement going. Guys with this fantasy would be buzzing with erotic thrills after being told that the OG was better in bed. It would be great if you could take on this perspective and develop this fetish, but I realize that such an attempt may not be realistic.

The popular poly saying that sex with someone else is "just different" doesn't satisfy me. I'd prefer that my partner dish out the radical stuff on me.

[Seattleite]

Bump! How did this develop, Kidd?

[SoCalDoc]

This thread seems crazy to me...the only thing that could justify Kidd putting up w his wife's cruelty and utter selfishness would be if he thoroughly enjoyed the cuckold lifestyle. Otherwise I would question the legitimacy of the thread. Sorry, don't want to break any forum rules, but...dang!

[dingedheart]

There lots of threads like this. It didn't sound like he enjoyed any of it so I don't think he was into the cuckold thing.

A couple of things I found interesting was the stuff about radical honesty and how time (absence of NRE) can change peoples prospective. She actually told him....yup sex is better with him. Yup I do visualize him when I with you ...different is a cop out......it could be much better and on many levels. Do it with a gymnast and then come talk:).

I wonder if some of the people who posted would like to amend or change there comments. But hindsight is 20/20.