Liberated Christian Polyamory

[JessicaSideways]

I would first like to point out that I am not a Christian, I am a proud atheist and I plan to remain that way for the rest of my natural life until I start seeing some evidence that there is a god. Seriously.

But this website looks very sane, so if you have family members who wonder whether or not you are being true to your Christian morals, I would like to recommend a website called Liberated Christian Polyamoury, which is a website which helps people reconcile their Christian faith with their polyamorous desires.

http://www.libchrist.com/

Peace,
Jessica

[Damek]

I'm athiest too, but that's pretty cool! I'm always a fan of people feeling better about themselves whatever they believe.

And interestingly, I just came across this NPR story on these people selling Christian sex toys (http://www.npr.org/blogs/bryantpark/2008/02/the_joy_of_christian_sex_1.html), which I liked for the same reason.

[duane]

I am a christian living in the Bible belt of Ky. up until about 6 months ago my life was very normal, than my wife came home with a girlfriend. I didn't know I could love two people but I have fallen in love with her and my wife loves her very much also. My question is: Spiritually are we out of the will of God, 6 months ago I would say yes, but I have been doing a study on the subject and God and Jesus says, we are far better off with one mate but does not say we can't have more than one . Any help out there.

Duane

[rickrock]

Duane,

Do you complete both women emotionally and sexually? If yes, love is at the heart of Christianity.

[duane]

rickrock
Thank you and I agree, most of my family and the community in which I live do not. Our relationship is almost a year old now and we still have our daysb but for the mosy part we are growing closer everyday. Again thanks

[Druidess]

Duane:

I am a Christian as well. And I agree with what you have found in your research. As most of the people on here say, this life style isn't for everyone. I wish I could say I was able to be in a polyagmist relationship, but my feelings aren't open enough for it. My husband and I are happy. Though I did fall in love with someone else, it made my husband more intuned with me to fill the hole I had previously that helped to find someone else to fill it. Istill love the other person but couldn't have a family like those I hear described here, for my own personal preferences and my husbands. I wish your family all the best!!!!

[alphafour]

I would first like to point out that I am not a Christian, I am a proud atheist and I plan to remain that way for the rest of my natural life until I start seeing some evidence that there is a god. Seriously.

Thank you Jessica. Christian roots declare polyamory. Jesus even went so far to promote "brotherly love" and was witnessed to have held some of disciples closely.

I don't how they reconcile the current "religion" of many "Christian" denominations with the life of Jesus; however the canonized scriptures leave some clues. The statement against the Corinthians made by Paul (who wasn't Jesus), and against the Nicolaitians by John (who wasn't Jesus) show prejudice against sexual license of many kinds. Perhaps it might be better to look at the Bible as the field of wheat which contains both food and chaff, instead of a feast of unleavened bread.

Why don't they just pray in the streets and show their piety while they murder children in the darkess? Such Pharissees!

The website you posted appears to step in the right direction instead of going down the path which leads to destruction.

[billadam]

Recent media attention has been paid to fundamentalist Mormon sects and families which continue to practice polygamy and also to certain groups which describe themselves as non-Mormon "Christian polygamists."

In light of these developments, we feel it is important to make a statement which summarizes our beliefs and distinguishes them from the beliefs of these recently publicized groups.

This statement does not contain biblical quotes to document or describe our beliefs. Various materials on this web site deal in a more detailed fashion with these beliefs and the relevant biblical material.

[lost2darkness]

I like to go with the tenet, that Jesus wouldn't care who you love or how many you love, so long as you DO love.

Again, not a Christian.. but I think thats how it should be.

[berserker239]

I am a christian living in the Bible belt of Ky. up until about 6 months ago my life was very normal, than my wife came home with a girlfriend. I didn't know I could love two people but I have fallen in love with her and my wife loves her very much also. My question is: Spiritually are we out of the will of God, 6 months ago I would say yes, but I have been doing a study on the subject and God and Jesus says, we are far better off with one mate but does not say we can't have more than one . Any help out there.

Duane

Do you really want to follow a god that forces you to be unhappy? If god loves all of you so much. Hes poly

[vandalin]

If god loves all of you so much. Hes poly

I like that!

[berserker239]

I like that!

:D Im glad!

[Quath]

I have chatted with Christians on another web board long ago. I asked a few about polyamory. Most said that God wanted us to be monogamous. However, the Old Testament is full of laws supporting polygyny. There was a diversity of opinion about this.

Some people thought that this was one valid model of marriage that God approved of, but no lesbian action nor polyandry.

Some thought that God tolerated it like he tolerates divorce. However, there are passages where God helps a man marry more than one wife. Some people rebutted by saying that God wanted man and women to be "one flesh." However, this didn;t work because there is a passage in the Bible where a man is "one flesh" with a prostitute.

Some thought that God allowed for this bad for of marriage in the Old Testament, but Jesus died to remove old rules like this. The problem with this was that the Old Laws were called perfect and eternal.

So I think going with the Old Testament didn't resolve anything for the people who take the whole Bible literally. The more liberal Christians tended to go with more of a New Testament view of loving your neighbor as yourself. So if you focus on the love side of it, polyamory should fit in nicely.

[berserker239]

I have chatted with Christians on another web board long ago. I asked a few about polyamory. Most said that God wanted us to be monogamous. However, the Old Testament is full of laws supporting polygyny. There was a diversity of opinion about this.

Some people thought that this was one valid model of marriage that God approved of, but no lesbian action nor polyandry.

Some thought that God tolerated it like he tolerates divorce. However, there are passages where God helps a man marry more than one wife. Some people rebutted by saying that God wanted man and women to be "one flesh." However, this didn;t work because there is a passage in the Bible where a man is "one flesh" with a prostitute.

Some thought that God allowed for this bad for of marriage in the Old Testament, but Jesus died to remove old rules like this. The problem with this was that the Old Laws were called perfect and eternal.

So I think going with the Old Testament didn't resolve anything for the people who take the whole Bible literally. The more liberal Christians tended to go with more of a New Testament view of loving your neighbor as yourself. So if you focus on the love side of it, polyamory should fit in nicely.

They wont focus on that thought, most christians are too god fearing to think against anything their preists tell them. Its a shame cause alot of them are good people

[XYZ123]

They wont focus on that thought, most christians are too god fearing to think against anything their preists tell them. Its a shame cause alot of them are good people

I have a born again cousin whom I grew up with and I love her and her family deeply. They are some of my closest family members. But, even if I came fully out to everyone else, I could never tell her. She's so brainwashed that I know she'd immediately disown me, regardless of our wonderful relationship.

I am neither Christian nor religious, though I do believe in a god in some form. "God is love." If what you're doing is between consenting adults, not hurting anyone, and focused on love with all its unifying and healing power, I don't see why it should go against your faith. It may possibly negate some of the "beliefs" you've been TAUGHT, but do you want to believe something is right that holds you and others back from happiness in this life? Instead of searching in an ancient book or in the supposed wisdom of people who want to dictate your life, search your own heart and soul. You'll know.

[berserker239]

I have a born again cousin whom I grew up with and I love her and her family deeply. They are some of my closest family members. But, even if I came fully out to everyone else, I could never tell her. She's so brainwashed that I know she'd immediately disown me, regardless of our wonderful relationship.

I am neither Christian nor religious, though I do believe in a god in some form. "God is love." If what you're doing is between consenting adults, not hurting anyone, and focused on love with all its unifying and healing power, I don't see why it should go against your faith. It may possibly negate some of the "beliefs" you've been TAUGHT, but do you want to believe something is right that holds you and others back from happiness in this life? Instead of searching in an ancient book or in the supposed wisdom of people who want to dictate your life, search your own heart and soul. You'll know.

People just dont wanna put the time and effort into it these days

[Quath]

They wont focus on that thought, most christians are too god fearing to think against anything their preists tell them. Its a shame cause alot of them are good people
True. It takes a lot before someone feels comfortable or empowered enough to disagree with their priest. My mother, who is Christian, confessed to me that she disagreed with her priest about two things.

The first was that it was a greater sin for a wife to disobey her husband than to follow her own conscious. For example, if her husband told her to murder, it would be a bigger sin to disobey him than to murder.

The other was that Jesus was the only way to heaven. She hated the implications that children (or even adults) who never heard of God would roast in hell forever. She just figured that that part of the Bible must be wrong.

It may possibly negate some of the "beliefs" you've been TAUGHT, but do you want to believe something is right that holds you and others back from happiness in this life? Instead of searching in an ancient book or in the supposed wisdom of people who want to dictate your life, search your own heart and soul. You'll know.
Yeah, I agree. I was arguing with a Christian once about gay marriage. I was presenting Bible verses that support homosexuality while also admitting that there were Bible verses that were against it as well. So I asked, "The choice comes down to how ytou wish to interpret the Bible. And that choice comes down to whether you will stand on the side of love or the side of intolerance." I thought it was a good argument, however, it did not sway him.

[Barry]

I am a christian living in the Bible belt of Ky. up until about 6 months ago my life was very normal, than my wife came home with a girlfriend. I didn't know I could love two people but I have fallen in love with her and my wife loves her very much also. My question is: Spiritually are we out of the will of God, 6 months ago I would say yes, but I have been doing a study on the subject and God and Jesus says, we are far better off with one mate but does not say we can't have more than one . Any help out there.

Duane

I think most people would agree that mankind is comprised of mind, body, and spirit. True, we could debate almost endlessly the definition of spirit, but I think most people recognize that our very essence is linked to a common source of energy, an energy that we have recognized and defined in scientific principels that can be measured and quantified, and that share a commonality throughout the known universe. I am a Christian and have been for most of my life, but to present an argument for, or against, polyamory from my Christian perspective would only place me in one camp as opposed to the other. So I will approach this question from a different perspective. It does not seem to follow logical thinking that we, being a single entity, would be biologically set against ourselves. By that I mean, mind in opposition of body, body in opposition of spirit, and spirit in opposition of one or both of the others. That sounds more like insanity to me. That design, whether by creation, or evolution would be incredibly flawed. We are capable of loving more than one person, and capable of loving more than one gender. I think the restrictions lie within the mores of society. If you look back over history you will see that these very issues have always existed in humanity. Some cultures were open to their natures and embraced and celebrated those natures, others rejected and punished those natures and the resultant behaviors. Some pretty vile things have been done, and are still being done, in the name of spirituality and morality. We are capable of making the choice to embrace and accept loving both emotionally and physically more than one person, and more than one gender. When it comes down to it, either way, we as individuals make that choice. If you are looking for the support of society, well.... how long has mankind been on this earth? That part hasn't been resolved yet. If that is the battle you have been cut out for then good luck. If it's love that you are seeking, follow your heart, it's a significant part of your mind, body, spirit.

Barry

[BexyandBen]

We have done extensive research into poly lifestyles in the Bible. It all depends on whether you believe what the Bible teaches, or if you believe what the church teaches. There are also variations of how closely you believe the Bible to be God's Word.

Bottom line, for us, is that the Law outlines all the "rules" for having polygynous relationships. None of those were changed in the New Testament--in fact, the only admonitions against it are specifically given to church leaders, just as the Law specifically mandated that Levites not practice it.

We would be happy to share what we have discovered with any Christian who is interested. We're not here to proselytize. We'll share what we have learned with anyone--but our experience with certain groups of people have tended to be very negative when discussing our faith. So, if you want to know, drop us line. But don't drop us a line if you just want to argue and attack our faith.

[Ceoli]

I really would love to join a spiritualist church, does anyone know if there is one in or near aldershot Hampshire.
I tried looking on the Internet but it turn out blank.
And do you have to be a Christian to be one, Im not religious

thanks brad

You might want to check out the Unitarian church. They are not specifically Christian and welcome a variety of religious traditions. I know some poly people in the Unitarian churches too, though there are also quite a few more old fashioned folk. If you don't mind trekking up to Richmond, there's a nice church there with some cool progressive members.

And if you ever felt like trekking all the way into London, I used to help plan a specialized alternative service called Resonance, that happens once a month up in Islington. It's pretty cool as the topics tend to be a bit more relative to people's lives.

You might be able to find some info at http://www.ukspirituality.org

You can also check out http://www.unitarian.org.uk for more info.


Maybe when I get back to London I can spot you at one of the events!

[lovetouchPhx]

the Law outlines all the "rules" for having polygynous relationships. None of those were changed in the New Testament--in fact, the only admonitions against it are specifically given to church leaders, just as the Law specifically mandated that Levites not practice it.

I realize this is an old post but wanted to add:

1) In NT not to "Church leaders" but only to the elders of two Churches - Timothy and Titus. Some speculate it was because these were more Gentile Church's not use to the Hebrew way of many wives and concubines. Although this practice had somewhat died out by NT times, probably more a financial issue - wives are expensive - not any religious or moral issue.

2) Of course Christians are not under "the Law" In the sermon on the mount Jesus clearly changed some OT laws (after saying he came not to change but fulfill) he did change them to only the law of love.

[Fidelia]

Hi, Dave.

Welcome to the forums! Glad you're here! :)

[jasminegld]

I am a christian living in the Bible belt of Ky.

Duane, have you found www.kentuckypolyamory.org?

How are things going with your family and your religious questions?

[GroundedSpirit]

I am a christian living in the Bible belt of Ky. up until about 6 months ago my life was very normal, than my wife came home with a girlfriend. I didn't know I could love two people but I have fallen in love with her and my wife loves her very much also. My question is: Spiritually are we out of the will of God, 6 months ago I would say yes, but I have been doing a study on the subject and God and Jesus says, we are far better off with one mate but does not say we can't have more than one . Any help out there. Duane

Hi Duane,

I think it might be useful to point out the fact that any religious organization (i.e. christianity etc) is first and foremost a political organization and only secondly a spiritual one. Many of the "rules & regulations" presented as such are private interpretations of particular humans with their own agenda to pursue. These rules etc have only been painted over with what appears to be a spiritual coating to make them easier to swallow and therefor further the existing agenda.

Trust your heart - it's has "higher" connections......

GS

[Quath]

Heh. That reminded me of a Simpson's quote:

Bart: Reverend Lovejoy, we need you to help us find a rabbi.
Rev.L: [flustered] Well, um, before you make any rash decisions, let me
just remind you that the church is changing to meet the needs
of today's young Christians!
-- Church Chat, ``Like Father, Like Clown''

[jasminegld]

Hi Duane,
I think it might be useful to point out the fact that any religious organization (i.e. christianity etc) is first and foremost a political organization and only secondly a spiritual one. Many of the "rules & regulations" presented as such are private interpretations of particular humans with their own agenda to pursue.

Grounded Spirit, when I first began to wrestle with reconciling the will of God with my interest in polyamory, the last thing I needed was someone disparaging my church ("first and foremost a political organization"; "their own agenda to pursue"). And there's a reason for that.

It's one thing to respectfully examine in depth the teachings of my church, find some of them lacking, and modify or abandon those teachings because of their inherent failures.

It's something else entirely to glibly abandon the teachings of my church because I found them inconvenient, because I wanted to do something the teachings prohibit.

When I first began this process, I HAD to wrestle with Scripture, with church teachings, and with my own soul. It was absolutely necessary for me that I understand polyamory within the context of my Christianity and the church teachings that I knew. I felt that anything less would be dishonest and hypocritical.

I don't know Duane. I don't know how far Duane has progressed in his examination process.

I do know that criticizing someone's church and/or religion is rarely productive. It can trigger defensiveness, a need to protect one's self, one's church, and one's connection with that church.

Far better to point out the emphasis Christianity places on truth, love, and authenticity. All of which are completely consistely with polyamory.

[CielDuMatin]

I think that when personal lifestyle choices, or needs, or preferences, or genetic imperatives conflict with the faith that you have taken on board (whether it be christianity, buddhism, taoism, paganism, agnosticism or atheism) it needs to be faced in some way. If not, then I think it becomes one of those things that can eat at the soul and the sense of self.

Some people can find a place in their religion for how they choose to, or feel compelled to live their lives, and some can not. Some feel that while they can still follow the teachings of that religion, they do not fit within their local congregation, and that, in and of itself, can be a huge challenge. I would suggest that resolving this latter issue is easier in larger cities, where there tends to be a wider variety of implementations of each faith, while still considered within the faith. I think that in smaller communities this often means keeping your faith, while not being able to participate in local congregations, which is a shame, because often they are a source of support and comfort to them.

So I guess I am suggesting that this issue is not a uniquely christian one.

I am certain that this becomes even more of an issue in countries with a less liberal attitude towards freedom of religious choice.

jasminegld, thank you for sharing this part of your story with us.

[Ravenesque]

Hi Duane,

I think it might be useful to point out the fact that any religious organization (i.e. christianity etc) is first and foremost a political organization and only secondly a spiritual one. Many of the "rules & regulations" presented as such are private interpretations of particular humans with their own agenda to pursue. These rules etc have only been painted over with what appears to be a spiritual coating to make them easier to swallow and therefor further the existing agenda.

Trust your heart - it's has "higher" connections......

GS

I see your point. There is a broadness to your statement which does not seem directed at any one organization.

I think that it can apply to any organization or group, religious, community based or otherwise. Often enough it is true that though one outward appearance is presented, there is an agenda behind the scenes that is at cross-purposes with the facade shown to entice the public.

The best advice for those interested is to thoroughly investigate what these organizations have to offer them. Do your core values match those of the organization you wish to join, even the hidden agenda? If the answer is yes than there is no problem in joining. If no, do not join.

Either way you would be trusting your heart.

~Raven~

[lovefromgirl]

The best advice for those interested is to thoroughly investigate what these organizations have to offer them. Do your core values match those of the organization you wish to join, even the hidden agenda? If the answer is yes than there is no problem in joining. If no, do not join.

Either way you would be trusting your heart.

I took your advice with this Liberated Christian thing -- though I'm mostly a "hey, whatever's up there is up there, I dunno" sort of girl, I did like the notion that Christianity might accommodate polyamory.

I was almost sold on it, too, in the sense that yes, it made enough sense that I'd be willing to endorse it. So what made me change my mind?

The site has a very problematic section on adult/child sexuality; at one point, it is testified that a thirteen-year-old enjoyed his abuse.

DO NOT WANT. Thus, cannot endorse. Will happily look for the theology elsewhere, but for personal reasons, am unable to share that person's values on severely underage sex with adults.

[Ravenesque]

I took your advice with this Liberated Christian thing -- though I'm mostly a "hey, whatever's up there is up there, I dunno" sort of girl, I did like the notion that Christianity might accommodate polyamory.

I was almost sold on it, too, in the sense that yes, it made enough sense that I'd be willing to endorse it. So what made me change my mind?

The site has a very problematic section on adult/child sexuality; at one point, it is testified that a thirteen-year-old enjoyed his abuse.

DO NOT WANT. Thus, cannot endorse. Will happily look for the theology elsewhere, but for personal reasons, am unable to share that person's values on severely underage sex with adults.

It is definitely advice to be used across a broad scope. Religion is one aspect. I find it rather helpful when dealing with alternative communities as well. As I said in another thread, being any one identity doesn't guarantee a progressive attitude, something I find preferable. It is usually needed for social change to occur.

There is a great deal of prejudice and moral relativity hidden under the guise of openness and forward thinking. An agenda to replicate normative social structures which benefit some and negatively affect others. All within the same alternative community such as the polyamorous one. I've managed to steer clear though not without some mistakes. That's a deceptive crowd and the agenda is not always easy to spot beneath the "spiritual coating" as GroundedSpirit put it.

~Raven~

[GroundedSpirit]

Grounded Spirit, when I first began to wrestle with reconciling the will of God with my interest in polyamory, the last thing I needed was someone disparaging my church ("first and foremost a political organization"; "their own agenda to pursue"). And there's a reason for that.


Hi Jasmine,

Well, I'm sorry if that hit a tender spot with you. All I can offer - and this is something I constantly remind myself of and try to stay connected to - is this.
Whenever I find myself in/leaning towards a defensive posture over anything short of a physical threat, I immediately try to identify what belief it is I hold that seems threatened and try to analyze what it would mean if that belief turned out to be a false - or maybe incomplete - one. (we have lots of them) This way I find I learn more and the communication becomes clearer with the assumed threaten-er.
I would chose not to debate any of your beliefs with you but acknowledge that you have the freedom to believe as you feel best as long as it harms none.
That's really all I have to offer.

GS

[GroundedSpirit]

The site has a very problematic section on adult/child sexuality; at one point, it is testified that a thirteen-year-old enjoyed his abuse.

This has always been a really difficult topic for us in general. Having raised 5 children ourselves, the necessity of being on guard for predators or others of bad intent was a prevailing reality.
But we also acknowledge the other side of reality - because we've been there too. We know when "we" became aware of our own sexuality (and yes it was prior to age 13 !) and began experimenting with it. We also know numerous others personally and have had these in-depth conversations on the topic.
I haven't read the article you speak of but have read hundreds of others - or books etc - dealing with the topic and can only say that we've come to the conclusion there's considerable damage currently being done to innocent people by the "moralists" in positions of power & influence and if allowed to go unchecked it will simply add to the distorted views too many people have about our natural sexuality in general.
It's not a small problem.
There's currently hundreds (maybe thousands?) of young men & women that have been charged with "crimes" based on an arbitrary age limit for sexual exploration and will now be faced with being labeled "predators" - dangers to society for the rest of their lives !
In a maybe slightly more extreme example I recall reading about not long ago, a young woman of 16 who was involved in a little orgy that included others of a variety of ages (up to mid 40s). Somehow the cat got out of the bag as it often does and her parents got wind of it and filed charges against all involved.
When it came court time the young lady stormed into the courtroom and declared to all that there was no coercion of ANY manner involved - that if anything it was largely HER idea and how can you DARE prosecute these friends !
Never-the-less, the prosecution did proceed and the supposed perpetrators convicted, sentenced and labeled.
This was especially poignant for us as we had certainly both been involved in very similar activities at similar ages and have nothing but fond memories. We also know numerous others who will testify to the same.
So unfortunately, at least to us, this like so many other things is one of those grey areas that needs to be looked at on a case by case basis. Blind morality leads to blind justice.

GS

[jasminegld]

Hi Jasmine,
Well, I'm sorry if that hit a tender spot with you.

I was concerned about Duane, and still am. I haven't seen Duane post again. Duane asked about polyamory being "out of the will of God." Your reply was about the validity of religious organizations. I am concerned about Duane's reaction, based on what I remember of my own experience.


Whenever I find myself in/leaning towards a defensive posture over anything short of a physical threat, I immediately try to identify what belief it is I hold that seems threatened and try to analyze what it would mean if that belief turned out to be a false - or maybe incomplete - one.

It takes practice to get to that place, and very few of us can start there right off the bat. The more conservative the starting place, the more difficult it is allow one's beliefs to be challenged. We have to take them in small steps, one carefully chosen bit at a time, as we are ready for them. Duane had already chosen the area he wanted to work on -- the will of God. It's not up to us to challenge him with other areas that he hasn't indicated he is ready for.

[GroundedSpirit]

[COLOR="RoyalBlue"][FONT="Comic Sans MS"][B]

I see your point. There is a broadness to your statement which does not seem directed at any one organization.



Hi Raven,

Well yes, a statement like that (as you mentioned) has to be broad because it's so fundamental to humans and especially "groups" of them.
This I think kind of takes you down a path of understanding the difference between "spirituality" and "religion".
There's something in all of us that "knows" we're all connected, all part of something bigger than us. Sensing this, we reach out to try to find, to understand,what that all is. It's in our nature. We need to understand our world around us. The disadvantages of a big brain.
Although at the root of all the worlds great "religions" there are some simple, basic truths espoused by some enlightened individuals that attempt to lead people to discover that connectedness, those simple truths are often twisted by the too-big brains attached to beings with an equal desire for power & control. And that's when things go awry and "religions" surface under the guise of "bringing people together for better understanding". It seems that the true "understanding" necessary is a very personal and individual thing that can only come through states of high awareness and much exposure to all the variations that such simple truths can allude to.
Love and compassion seem to fall into that category :)

GS

[nihonjindesu]

Wow, I am so glad for this link.

That's an awesome website with lots of good ideas about things I haven't even considered before. I come from a Christian background so it's very interesting to see where I was mis-taught the Bible, etc.
(I no longer identify as Christian though.)

[bassman]

Thanks for the link.
Though I'm atheist and dont find credibilty at all in the bible, for me it is myth and legend, - I am going to send this link to my conservative other, in the hope that something will resonate with her. :cool::cool: