sifting through the ashes [Archive]

FlameKat

11-06-2010, 01:39 AM

So those who read my intro post know I have recently had a court case over parenting and relocation... that is now done and we are waiting on the judgement to be handed down (hopefully sometime before December).

My partner and I didn't really get too deep into the poly conversation as he was hurting deeply from the convo we had had previous to him flying down, and plus all the court stuff, and then we had a minor discussion where he did most of the talking. Essentially from what I can remember, he is ok as long as I am able to say that I do love him, and that i don't love him less, and that I won't leave him.
These are things that I can do quite easily, but to me miss out and fall far short of the discussion we need to have. I am still unable to answer his question of whether I am IN love with his friend, mainly because there is a huge wad of pain in the way he (our friend) reacted to all this and cut us off.

After our talk my partner felt compfortable enough to ask me to marry him, which I accepted (It was very romantic and wonderful - I just have a pragmatic way of writing). I am still unsure of what we are heading into though, and feel as though I should take the engagement off the table until we are really certain of what the other is expecting. Don't mistake me - I love my sweetie so very much, I just don't want to hurt him by not being able to move away from this lifestyle or rather from my love for his friend. I am not interested in pursuing someone else to round me out, i just love two wonderful men and need to incorporate a lifestyle to accomodate that.

I have become very subdued from the person I usually am, and have retreated a lot emotionally from my partner as well. I feel quite shell shocked. I am back in Canada with my partner in about 10 days and am planning a nice cosy mental breakdown followed by deep soulsearching (I leave Xmas Eve so hopefully will be all good by the time I get back to my gorgeous kiddies) and figuring myself out.

The whole time our friend has been in his no contact state he has been changing his facebook and msn pictures in time with my status updates, and i feel he has been trying to communicate. his facebook has disappeared now though. I have been deleted :( his msn is still there though and I am hanging on to that at the moment.
I am in agonies of needing to talk to our friend, it eats me up inside, but I am hanging on tightly to his need to have no contact, though I did break that yesterday to send a very short note to send best wishes to him on his birthday, to which he replied with a thank you. not sure what if anything that means.

To put it shortly - I am confused and needing some direction to steer towards...

FlameKat

11-06-2010, 02:10 PM

I forgot to mention a few things in my previous post. Mainly that there is also a very significant bond between all three of us. I would go as far as to say that all three of us are 'anam cara'.

The relationship between my partner and his friend had been steadily weakening (not the right word - but works) since before I had met either of them, however the bond between them was significant Enough that when I met my partner - his friend was a regular feature of his conversation, I even went far enough to describe them as an old married couple (minus any homosexuality :p).
To me it was a package deal - they came together, which is why it was so important to get to know my partner's friend (and for lack of anything better I will call my partner K and his friend T, and if they ever join this site they can give themselves names I will use in future).
I have a deep emotional and spiritual connection with K, and we have from nearly the very start of our friendship, before we became partners. With T it was something that happened over time. We had a deep spiritual connection long before the emotional connection came into play. We were friends first and are now something more... well actually we are now something more just with no communication. The connection is still there and is something that I know in myself will not go away, for me anyway.
Being who I am, I can not ignore it, for me it is like I am no longer able to breathe fully, I am still getting on with life - but not as deeply or happily as I could. I don't know whether to push the issue while I am in Canada this time round (it will be a year before I am able to come back again - hopefully for good). I have a nasty feeling that if I push it will make things worse... but then its the pushing that made T open up to me in the first place. It's my refusal to let him sulk and be moody that took us to the depths we got to, and it was my genuineness and bluntness that he respected so much.

I don't understand at all the reaction he had to K telling him that it was alright if he (T) loved me - after all he fell in love with me too and knows better than anyone how wonderful I am (paraphrasing). From what K tells me - T's reaction was incredulous that K was ok with it - that he should be angry, etc. That as we couldn't do what was right - he would and he would not contact us again. I was extremely hurt he did not say any of this to me - just stopped talking and removed his fb account, removed me from his msn (though i can still see them so i haven't been blocked).

I am struggling to find an answer inside me to the questions that K asked as well. though I did find one of them very unfair - Namely the good old cliff rescue scene... I got very short with him for that one and told him quite bluntly that it was a question that was designed to make him feel better, not one to help the situation.
Then the one I have mentioned before - whether I am IN love with T or 'just love him', not sure entirely what the difference is to him... to me it is a relationship phase, not a defining characteristic of whether it is romantic or not.

Aaaargh - sorry another long post and no specific questions again.

Comments are definitely welcome though, my head is spinning trying to figure this all out, and it definitely doesn't help that K is midflight back to Canada right now, T is incommunicado indefinitely... and no-one else (aside from this forum) know about any of this, and with the legal issues right now - definitely not something I can let out in my small town, even with my closest friends.

vodkafan

11-07-2010, 02:00 AM

sounds a bit weak I know but all I can think of to say is good luck and hope your situation gets resolved...let you know somebody is reading.

FlameKat

11-07-2010, 02:03 AM

Thanks Vodkafan (I love vodka :p)... lol

and thanks for the thought :D

Any idea of how to explain that i can't just walk away from my feelings? that they will always be there regardless of whether his friend is there or not?

redpepper

11-07-2010, 06:20 PM

It seems to me that some priorities might help. You have a lot going on and the weight of it all sounds to me is to heavy. Why not break it down a bit... you've got a court case, a engagement, a man that you love that is ignoring you and you are falling apart (missed anything?)... what comes first.

Well, the court case won't go away but is done for now, so that can be put aside, the man isn't talking to you, so that can be put aside,,, he isn't going anywhere and obviously needs some time to get a hold of himself emotionally, as do you, so allow that time. You just got engaged... happy times no? Flowers, romance, chocolates, dates, love notes.... rake it in girl! I would be! That only comes around once.

If you are not feeling the love in an engagement and only pain, then that would be a red flag to me... not because of the other guy, but because of your fiancée? If you separate your feelings out into your fiancée and the other man... do you love and want to be with him for the rest of your life? Does it feel sustainable, is it rationally sustainable, do you think that you and he can progress into the future? What can you do to make sure that happens? What have you not laid out on the table in order to have a happy marriage? What has he not laid out?

Lastly, but not the least... is you. You need to take a break (you are, but REALLY allow that) and use this time this other man has given you to re-group and look into yourself I think. Be introspective; what do you want for your future, regardless of those you love? What is it you want to create out of your relationships? Do you want a large chosen family? Do you want more kids? Do you want to be a lone traveler of the globe? Only you know the answers and you are your own primary.

Derby said once and I think she is right, "everyone in your life can leave, but you can't leave yourself" you are number one. That to me, would be where to start first... taking care of myself in whatever way works.

ImaginaryIllusion

11-08-2010, 02:41 AM

Derby said once and I think she is right, "everyone in your life can leave, but you can't leave yourself" you are number one. That to me, would be where to start first... taking care of myself in whatever way works.
Sounds like you got a real smart girl there RP.

And I'd have to agree with her...it's something I see far too often in lovely self-less people...that they go too far taking care of others that they forget to take care of themselves. The rub of course is that eventually they wear down and have nothing left for others because of it. Vicious little catch-22.

FlameKat

11-08-2010, 03:01 AM

If you are not feeling the love in an engagement and only pain, then that would be a red flag to me... not because of the other guy, but because of your fiancée? If you separate your feelings out into your fiancée and the other man... do you love and want to be with him for the rest of your life? Does it feel sustainable, is it rationally sustainable, do you think that you and he can progress into the future? What can you do to make sure that happens? What have you not laid out on the table in order to have a happy marriage? What has he not laid out?

Lastly, but not the least... is you. You need to take a break (you are, but REALLY allow that) and use this time this other man has given you to re-group and look into yourself I think. Be introspective; what do you want for your future, regardless of those you love? What is it you want to create out of your relationships? Do you want a large chosen family? Do you want more kids? Do you want to be a lone traveler of the globe? Only you know the answers and you are your own primary.

Derby said once and I think she is right, "everyone in your life can leave, but you can't leave yourself" you are number one. That to me, would be where to start first... taking care of myself in whatever way works.

Reading your posts I have often thought you are a very ... organised lady :p and this proves it to me... lol I knew all of it but just couldn't separate it Thanks btw.

With regards to the engagement - I love my partner deeply and truly, together forever soulmates, what I am having difficulty with is the idea that maybe somehow by not being able to answer his questions, by not knowing exactly what I want I am somehow deceiving him into accepting who I am when I don't know who I am (this even though he knows of my struggles right now).
That if it turns out that this is not just a phase (which I don't think it is), or maybe some over abundance of love welling out of me after being out of my very abusive and restrictive marriage (a possibility but I don't think it is ever gonna stop :p), he is going to be crushed. I don't want to do that to him, add to that how badly I feel that I feel like I have been the nail in the coffin on his relationship with T. It is a struggle to deal with.

Taking care of myself... still figuring that one out. Still learning that I am worth my own effort.... Not much really that I can delve into on that one for the simple reason that I need a hell of a lot of verbal diahhorrea and crying to happen, and I need to do that in a safe place away from my children... they have enough to deal with themselves.
I am working on that one though... and hopefully will accomplish a lot of this while up in Canadia this time round.

I will work on answering those questions you have asked, they are very good... go ahead throw some more at me :p

redpepper

11-08-2010, 07:59 AM

Sounds like you got a real smart girl there RP.

And I'd have to agree with her...it's something I see far too often in lovely self-less people...that they go too far taking care of others that they forget to take care of themselves. The rub of course is that eventually they wear down and have nothing left for others because of it. Vicious little catch-22.
She's smart and lovely for sure... we still need to take care of one another though as much as ourselves though. Sometimes that comes from taking care of others first sometimes... it's a strange thing and hard to explain, but by doing things for others, sometimes that takes care of what we need, that feeling of having given. That is also a catch 22.

In the case of your fiancee FlameKat, I think perhaps it might be an idea to let him know you can't answer who you are right now and can't give him the answers he needs... I think you can tell him you will do your best to at a later date (even set a date!) and then when that time comes see if you are ready. You don't have to commit to telling him how you are going to be for the rest of your life, as you don't know that, but you can ask for those questions to be shelved for a time when you are able to cope with answering them.

This is a way of taking care of yourself and giving to yourself at the same time. It kills two birds with one stone as it hopefully will make him feel like there is a time when he can check in with you on where you are at and can feel comfortable in that... you can ask that he give you some extra attention and romance until then as you are just engaged and feeling extra loving (or whatever you need to feel more safe, comfortable and loved).

FlameKat

11-12-2010, 01:47 AM

redpepper

11-12-2010, 04:52 AM

All very sensible, except for the driving need inside me to know myself. I want the answers to those questions myself. I want to know where I stand with myself, and what sort of future I am looking at.
Well, in my experience it takes a lot of reading, writing, bouncing it all off people, asking questions, banging my head against a wall, patience, time and allowing it all to manifest... just like any other issue that I struggle with really.

At least you have some resources at your disposal. You aren't alone in this and there are many that have gone before... keep at it... you'll get somewhere for sure.

FlameKat

11-12-2010, 12:05 PM

Thanks RP :D

Not too fond of the good old brick wall scenario - but am very familiar with it :p

On the upside (to me) T's facebook profile picture has resumed its ever changing appearance. K doesn't see it as a good thing - says that T is living by proxy essentially. I see it as keeping the channel open?? I suppose - while T figures out what he wants from all this.
Though I have to admit his latest pic has me confused - the cover art to the song "November Rain" by Guns N Roses. Not a happy song - which is to be expected but the lyrics send the most confusing messages - back and forth all over the place... add to that that the video is based on a short story in which the bride committs suicide...
V.Confusing especially as he chooses these things very carefully, so now I am curious about which message in the lyrics he is sending... and hoping that the following song doesn't appear (November Rain was no 2 in a trilogy - the third had Axl (as the main character) committing suicide himself...) very dark and dreary and likely is simply telling me he needs space still *sigh* just wish he would write to us, talk to us would be even better.

And to update on my own thoughts, I have decided to write a letter to both K and T setting out the answers to all the questions - both by K and RP, as they stand in my heart and mind at the moment, and make clear that that is my wish not what has to be... and go from there...also making clear to T that while a response would be appreciated that I don't expect one until he is ready to give one, and that I understand that may be never...

It is this decision which has restored my spirits lately (I am having some bad days medically speaking, pain tablets are only taking the edge off and it looks like I'll have to take sleeping tablets tonight), being able to promise myself honesty to myself, as well as my loved ones has brought me a great deal of peace. Decisions are such freeing things...

Now to figure out the answers :p

unusuality

11-18-2010, 03:44 AM

FlameKat

11-22-2010, 08:50 PM

LOL - arrived in Canada last week and have been having a terrible time with jetlag.
That whole looking after myself concept just doesn't sit solidly in my head - I have to look after others in order for me to feel good. That said - I am not a doormat or anything like that - just that in order for me to feel loved I need to be free to love the way I do. And right now that need is not being met, both because of the communication cut off with T and also with me trying to figure out just what I want.

Which I have figured out. But now have to work up the guts to tell K. I am very nervous about doing this -what I wish for is close but not the same at all as his dreams for us - mine include someone else as well as us...
And I have really and truly had enough of the silent treatment from T - I know he is watching my fb, I know he is communicating via his picture changes... so just talk to us already aaargh...

And knowing what I want - doesn't answer the questions of how to achieve what I want, nor does it answer the questions I know K will have... and it sure as hell doesn't make him feel good...

I am also stewing over T's latest picture - it is of a front door with christmas decorations etc all around it - all very welcoming ... my problem is I think it's an invitation for us to contact him ... when he's the one who walked away in the first damn place ...sounds petty I know, but to be frank - I am rather tired of him always getting to play from the safe side of things... and us always being the ones to stick our necks out...

Aaargh, I don't know what to do and if I did I wouldn't know how to go about it :P

FlameKat

11-22-2010, 09:01 PM

Derby said once and I think she is right, "everyone in your life can leave, but you can't leave yourself" you are number one. That to me, would be where to start first... taking care of myself in whatever way works.

Reading this again it hit me... I am very very empathic... and the whole way I work is based on others being around... If everyone around me left... I would be lost, I would have no-one to help... (and while I would appreciate the reprieve from feeling others around me... I would retreat into myself and at the same time out into the wonder of nature.... a lovely lovely dream... but not very practical :P) I NEED to have others around me for me to focus and be who I am...

not very coherent but I think I got my point across...

FlameKat

11-25-2010, 10:09 PM

So I have gotten my letter written out and ready to send.. after a number of rewrites and hack jobs it ended up at 5 pages long - typed... *sigh* I talk way too much....

Everything in it was important to me to say... so hopefully it comes across the right way... K called me from work just as I was finishing it up... and noticed the stress in my voice, so we are sitting down to talk about it tonight - which will be me showing him the letter... following which I will be sending it to T as well... GULP..

Being authentic and vulnerable sure as hell aint easy... this has to be one of the hardest things I can remember doing... I am absolutely terrified of how this will go. Yeah they both already know how I feel... but this is kinda for me my last straw.. if K can't deal with the reality of it... I really don't know what I'll do... if T doesn't respond but K is okay I'll survive... but if they both go down the gurgler... Its going to be one hell of a rocky road *NOTE: major understatement*

Think happy thoughts for me tonight guys.. I am absolutely petrified

redpepper

11-26-2010, 03:11 PM

Good luck flamekat. :)

FlameKat

11-26-2010, 07:39 PM

Good luck flamekat. :)

I ditched.. :( couldn't do it last night... building myself up to it... I have attached the letter to an email and am going to hit send any second now - the email has instructions to NOT READ AT WORK...

maybe I shouldn't send it it til he is on his way home...

I am such a coward.

MonoVCPHG

11-27-2010, 02:40 AM

I ditched.. :( couldn't do it last night... building myself up to it... I have attached the letter to an email and am going to hit send any second now - the email has instructions to NOT READ AT WORK...

maybe I shouldn't send it it til he is on his way home...

I am such a coward.
Well? Did you send it?...inquiring minds need to know:o

FlameKat

11-29-2010, 03:29 PM

Yes indeed i did hit the send button...

I forgot that I have his blackberry while I am in Canada though - so he didn't receive it until we were sitting down watching a movie, and he got a phone call from his brother...

I just couldn't bring it up myself...

So cowardly way of him getting the letter - he got it in the end... We had a good long chat, and cleared up some misconceptions and some mishandled communications on my part...
We have slightly different ways of speaking - he is very precise with the words he chooses whereas I am more descriptive and also suffer from Speech Dysphasia - which essentially means there is no direct link from my brain to my mouth...
So... the upshot is... he is feeling angry... I think... we need to talk some more, a lot more. But, he is at a place where he is feeling very angry with his friend, as well as me... also at a place where he doesn't want to mend his relationship with T, and wants me to focus on us and the kids right now...
which is of course very logical and what I need to do...but I still have the question of T in my mind... I need to at least be able to talk to T, and if that is going to hurt K then I am in a quandary... I really don't want to push the issue... but for my own sanity, just the sheer amount of shit I have to get through in the next year let alone all the crap from my past... I need T's support as well as K's... and this is all moot - cos T isn't bloody talking to us.
Anger aside, K is the most amazing man for accepting this (lol - I know there are plenty of other men out there who accept this, just saying K is to me the most amazing :D)... for being able to love me through this - I don't know that right now I could extend the same consideration to him... (Okay I could - but it would bring up so much baggage it would be like moving through superglue)

We hit a spot last night that has really bothered me... it was such a little thing... K turned the light off before I had even noticed he was getting ready for bed... then asked me if I was coming to bed (I was on my laptop)...

This triggered me off... made me feel like I was doing something wrong for sitting on the laptop, made me feel pressured to go to bed, and also triggered off some very bad memories from my marriage... *sigh* opposite sides of the bed... we talked about it a little... got to the point where I was explaining what was wrong (we had been talking back and forth for a little bit trying to figure it out) and I said, and had developed a tone, to not assume I am F*cking around on the laptop... at which point he got up and left the room telling me if I wanted to talk to P (my ex), I could do that...

I shut down due to the fact he had walked out while I was dealing with this stuff... I hate dealing with trigger points...we ended up finishing our talk... but there has been damage done... I am not sure yet how much or exactly what the damage is yet. I think it's possible that he has unresolved stuff from our poly talk (which hasnt been continued yet) that is coming out with this other stuff - just he doesn't want to bring it up or maybe doesn't realise himself...
Turning the light out without checking if I was packing up was so out of character for him... stupid thing to get upset about too...

*confusion is reigning supreme right now*

FlameKat

11-29-2010, 03:47 PM

It also has me really steaming that K feels and thinks that a large part of my attraction to T is simply that they are so similar... yes they are but they are also very different...
T has an uncanny knack of being able to find the trigger point I need to deal with next, trigger it and then push through it with me - very painful, but very very good...
K seems to see that as me having a sick need to be hurt... something I picked up in my marriage maybe...

I see it as me needing to heal and someone who doesn't walk away after triggering me off...

aaaaargh... except of course for this last doozy where T isn't talking to either of us *big gosh-darned growlies*

FlameKat

11-30-2010, 03:29 PM

Somewhere along the way I miscommunicated again (and have not yet fixed the misinterpretation)... Had a talk with K last night... he's under the impression that I am not going to send the letter to T...
I said that I may not need to... it's like I keep hoping that the more K proves how much he loves me, i think my feelings for T will resolve and go away... I have got to get it through my head that the truth in my heart is the damn truth and to stop fighting it...
It's not that I don't want this - I do, I want it so much I could burst with it... but it would be so much simpler if I didn't feel the way I do for T.

Essentially, K seems to be under the impression, that while I have been honest with him, that I will ignore it, how I feel. He doesn't understand that by acknowledging it all, by revealing it to him.. I have ended up with even more drive to get this to work... That the only way I will be able to put this away from me is if T will have nothing to do with it... and even then I will grieve for this wonderful thing lost - that I never had to begin with...

Am i confusing enough yet?

Short end of it is - that I need to have another talk, that we need to keep talking, I need to stop fart-arsing about and send the letter on to T... I also need to make clear that my relationship with T, is mine - he doesn't get to say whether we can be friends or not - yes they have let their friendship explode... but... I can't fix that, and I didn't damage it - contribute maybe, but, they are the ones who let it die - not me. Boundaries are another matter - sexual side of things is off the table by MY choice for now anyway - I have too much going on - not to mention I will be in another country again soon... As for how deep the friendship goes... regardless of whethr we are talking or not - it is one of the deepest friendships I have known... and to take that away from me... to pander to his insecurities is just damn rude...

Yes, I agreed that if he were to get involved with another woman - I would feel threatened... I'm sorry but he doesn't get the concept of poly so how exactly does he think I would feel secure? Am I supposed to answer honestly to a direct question or am I supposed to put a whole pile of conjecture in there... growlies. I also didn't get the opportunity to point out that that would be my baggage and that I would work through it...

aaaaargh... help please... I don't know where to direct the discussion we have next and how to start it off...

SNeacail

11-30-2010, 05:38 PM

I see a number of problems here:

K doesn't understand poly and you are pushing for a poly relationship

K & T are FORMER friends. K will see this as a competition (T might also). Basically you have instigated a pissing match where no one can win.

You may have to approach this from the mono standpoint (since K doesn't get poly). T is your friend. If you plan to keep your relationship with K, it can't move beyond that until he can accept being in a poly relationship.

You have a lot of stuff going on - take a step back and slow down. Not everything will be solved at once. Take one step at a time and expect to slip down a few and have to climb back up the same steps again.

FlameKat

11-30-2010, 07:05 PM

T is your friend. If you plan to keep your relationship with K, it can't move beyond that until he can accept being in a poly relationship.

You have a lot of stuff going on - take a step back and slow down. Not everything will be solved at once. Take one step at a time and expect to slip down a few and have to climb back up the same steps again.

The problem is that right now K wants to put his head in the sand, not even have me communicate with T...

I NEED to try and fix the FRIENDSHIP I had with T... everything else can wait... but, the problem is K is now insecure and struggling with the mere concept of T being involved anywhere in our lives...
I RESENT that - I stuffed up, I did not acknowledge the true depth of my feelings while they were developing - even when K pointed out concerns... even when T pointed out concerns... I am headstrong, wilful and prideful and damn do I make a mess of things... but... it's MY friendship and I WANT to fix it - if he doesn't want to fix his relationship with T that's up to him... disappointing but thats his concern...

I don't know how to explain that I NEED to try and fix this, if I can't then thats fine... but I NEED to TRY...

I have no problem with stepping up and slipping back and doing it all again - what I have a problem with is doing absolutely NOTHING...

redpepper

11-30-2010, 07:52 PM

Maybe it just needs time? Have you asked them? Maybe their idea of time is your idea of "NOTHING"

FlameKat

11-30-2010, 08:05 PM

K and I currently have a tacit understanding that I do not communicate with T without his go-ahead, since I sent the bday message without his prior knowledge...

So I can't ask T what he thinks as K doesn't want anything to do with him, and doesn't know if he EVER will...

This is simply not acceptable to me - if it was a definitive time, maybe...

I feel as though I am being not genuine... um.... not behaving with integrity as K has read my letter - which was written to BOTH of them, while T has not... I sent the letter to K first as I wanted to deal with his reaction and help him feel more secure, BEFORE I went ahead and sent it on to T... however I did not foresee K shutting down completely... I will not send the letter without his ok but at the same time I am not happy with not sending it... I need for both K and T to be aware of my core feelings... regardless of what the reaction or fallout is, regardless of where we all move towards from there - I NEED the integrity of having been honest to both of them.

Does that make sense?

redpepper

11-30-2010, 08:15 PM

yup :) keep at it... it is a lot of work, but results always come.

FlameKat

11-30-2010, 08:21 PM

LOL thanks RP... you and Mono are absolutely AWESOME on here you know - other s too but you two I personally have found the most helpful and inspirational... to me personally... just reading your posts and your story have helped me to evolve my own ideas and thoughts in a slightly less sledgehammerish way :P

I will definitely keep at it, I just hope that K will be able to stretch a little soon... treading water just doesn't suit my nature.

SNeacail

11-30-2010, 09:44 PM

just reading your posts and your story have helped me to evolve my own ideas and thoughts in a slightly less sledgehammerish way :P

There is a reason that sledgehammers are reserved for demolition:p. Ever try to bend a piece of wood? It is a sloooow process that can take days and it may require extra encouragement, such as steam, water, clamps, etc. making minor adjustments as you go. Bend it too fast and it will break and splinter.

whatamIdoing

12-02-2010, 11:36 PM

There is a reason that sledgehammers are reserved for demolition:p. Ever try to bend a piece of wood? It is a sloooow process that can take days and it may require extra encouragement, such as steam, water, clamps, etc. making minor adjustments as you go. Bend it too fast and it will break and splinter.

you are so wise... your posts help me so...

Flamekat.. all I gots for you darling are hugs... I think if B told me to cut all contact with J I would be very very angry... and sad.... and Yet I would get it... on so many levels...

right now I hurt for both of us struggling to make the men we love understand that we have enough love to go around....

FlameKat

12-09-2010, 09:32 PM

We had another chat yesterday, didn't move forward on anything I have been whinging about in my last few posts... didn't mention anything along those lines at all.

K brought the subject up and I just let him get it out, I had him read a little of the stuff on xeromag, he wasn't much impressed.

i am hoping to have the guts tonight to sit down and really go through the xeromag stuff, and also this forum (thats where the guts come in - letting him read these posts... sigh... i am finding it very difficult to let him simply because of baggage from my ex - when I separated from him - he hacked all my email/facebook/msn accounts and posed as me, threatened my friends etc - now I have no fears of that with K but I am finding it hard to let him into my internalisations as a result...being this open shouldn't be this big of a deal to me, I know we are committed to working through this together so what the hell am I afraid of???)

anyway, hopefully he will sign up and start talking on here to get help with the things he is feeling... those of you who are mono and willing to chat to him if he does sign up please welcome him if/when he does - or maybe let me know who you are so I can nudge him in your direction?

redpepper

12-10-2010, 05:08 AM

Hi Flamecat- hope that he decides to start looking at some of the issues that are coming up... denial is rather painful for those who are trying to be aware and make changes...

Mono is a great source of support for a lot of mono folks. I can't speak for him, but I would certainly be willing to talk to him as I have some grasp on what goes on in a mono/poly relationship having talked about it for the last two years almost daily... :cool:

Anyway, if I can help, I will give it a shot. It would be best if he did a bit of a search on here first though.

MonoVCPHG

12-10-2010, 05:14 AM

those of you who are mono and willing to chat to him if he does sign up please welcome him if/when he does - or maybe let me know who you are so I can nudge him in your direction?

I'm always available on here or in PM. I'll offer whatever support I can from my perspective if it is relevant to what he is feeling....which would be for him to decide :)

FlameKat

12-10-2010, 05:42 PM

Thanks guys, I will be sure to let him know...

I am having the letter sending talk with him (*shamed head - va text...) we have too much stuff to do in the evenings to really chat about this stuff, I only have a few weeks left before I am gone for another year and I hate using up our precious time together with hurt...

sigh... discussing the possibility of T starting to communicate again... he wants there to be no contact between T and myself unless he is involved... not sure exactly what he is meaning by that... and feeling rather untrusted and controlled by that idea...

what a mess...

whatamIdoing

12-12-2010, 08:06 PM

FlameKat

12-14-2010, 05:40 PM

Just sent the letter to T

Sorted out the contact thingy - he wants me to be able to talk to him about anything we (me and T) discuss... this was an issue before as T was disclosing some personal issues that he was having to me, but not to K, and I felt a need to respect his personal boundaries - however that became a problem when I had difficulty remembering which issues were ok to talk about and which weren't (I also suffer short term memory loss) and resolved my dilemna by making any personal topics offlimits.

because of that - I would have made that a clear consideration anyway - that i be able to talk to either of them about whatever I want...whether personal to themselves or not... if I am needing to talk about it then I should be able to do so with the people closest to me that I trust...

This is now a comfort level thing for me - as I mentioned before - I have a real need for my private communication to be private... I shouldn't have to discuss it... however I see the sense in being this open... it is just hard for me to actally be that open in my communications... whereas I am fine in person (LOL sometimes too fine with way too much info :D) is a new lesson for me to learn...

FlameKat

12-20-2010, 03:41 PM

T finally responded to the letter...

"Unfortunately I know that I cannot have the type of relationship you dream of nor even a friendship with boundaries as we are well past that..."

I am gutted.

The pain I have caused everyone that I love overwhelms me. The loss of such a deep friendship... I am not even feeling the true depth of that pain yet.

K said that he believes we might be coming to an end, he is starting to think he was meant to be the 'conduit' for me to meet T, that I am meant to be with T, not him.

The sheer pain of those words... I have felt like a deer in the headlights ever since he uttered them, despite that he reassured me he would be sticking by me through anything.

I am completely lost right now... words of advice are really really welcome right now...

redpepper

12-20-2010, 04:01 PM

Oh flamekat, I'm so sorry *hugs*

Maybe a little bit of time and patience and keeping things light will help him process and find it in his heart to be friends...?

FlameKat

12-20-2010, 04:05 PM

Oh flamekat, I'm so sorry *hugs*

Maybe a little bit of time and patience and keeping things light will help him process and find it in his heart to be friends...?

I so very much hope so...

It's the way he worded it that hurts me so... "as we are well past that", I cannot help but be severely hurt that it is easier for him to walk away from our connection, from the love we share... than to try and keep trying to find a balance we can all live with.

redpepper

12-20-2010, 04:13 PM

That does hurt... but perhaps because you are past all that he will decide to make an effort after regrouping...

Maybe giving it all a break until after the holiday season will help. I don't know about you but I find it hard to deal with stuff at this time of year. It's a hard time yet a wonderful time for so many... is it possible to ask if you can just enjoy being friends until then? and talk about it if he wants then?

FlameKat

12-20-2010, 04:24 PM

I am in the last week of my stay here in Canada (I leave on Friday). It would hurt K so much for me to be dwelling on the loss of T. He is somewhat relieved by T's response - and knows and has admitted how very selfish that is of him... I don't think it's selfish, at least - not if he stops me from communicating or tries to make me feel guilty for being upset...

He (K) has said that he feels the matter is at an end, that T has been quite clear, and that if I push further he (K) would be incredibly hurt.

For me it is still unclear, I want to know does T mean never, ever or maybe after some time has passed we can look things over and see how we stand?

K thinks I will keep pushing until I get the answer I want - that T will be willing to try.

And I can't say that he is wrong... I don't think so - but maybe he is right about me... I am so very stubborn when things feel right. And a relationship with T feels SO right. at least the idea of it does...

How do I answer my questions? without causing more hurt to everyone? is it even possible or am I being incredibly selfish?

MonoVCPHG

12-20-2010, 04:25 PM

Sorry to hear this Flamekat :(

FlameKat

12-20-2010, 04:51 PM

Thanks Mono.

whatamIdoing

12-20-2010, 06:51 PM

I've got no advice. but I have a lot of hugs and sympathy.

FlameKat

12-20-2010, 06:58 PM

Thanks WhatamIdoing...

Its all hurting pretty bad right now... hugs truly appreciated

FlameKat

12-20-2010, 08:07 PM

There was something else K said that has been niggling away at me - and I would like to ask for opinions or thoughts on how to view this...

Basically he said that my continuing to push at getting a response that will satisfy me would be, in his opinion, me pushing for the relationship... that he sees it as me fighting for the relationship with T more than I would for my relationship with him...

I see it this way... In my opening up and talking through everything with him, by letting myself be vulnerable and be in this much pain I AM fighting right now for my relationship with him... I sometimes feel it is unfair of me to subject him to the pain I am going through, that it would be better off all around if I lock it all away inside me and walk away from both him and T...

The comparison he sees, to me, is flawed - he doesn't see the dedication to him I am showing every single day, he sees me hurting over the loss of T...

I am not wallowing in my grief, I am still being loving, and considerate, when inside my heart is screaming its head off - at the same time as it is feeling loving towards him... I AM bloody fighting for what we have... any outward movement I make towards T is to alleviate the worst of my pain, not to fight for the relationship, although in effect it does do that as well.

I am just not sure how to move forward right now, and think it unfair that I should have all the answers immediately...

TheBlackSwede

12-20-2010, 09:56 PM

Hey Kat, I just read through all this... So sorry to hear that things have spiraled into such an unfortunate situation.

I think sometimes men cannot help but compare, it's sortof in our nature. This can especially be the case with very very good friends who are similar in many ways. Competition can be intrinsic. Perhaps from K's perspective, he's wondering what your reaction would have been had things gone the opposite way. If he had left you, and you were still with T. Maybe he can't help but wonder.

Also, surely he's going though some shit too, having lost one of his best friends of many years. Maybe discussing it is painful for him, for this, or maybe even both reasons. Perhaps he thinks you haven't noticed that this is hard for him too.

You may want to give it time and just see what happens, as tough as that may be to do. If T experiences a change of heart, maybe he'll reach out to you and K. If not, then time heals all wounds - don't let losing one lover cost you the other.

Good luck.

FlameKat

12-20-2010, 10:11 PM

Thanks SS

That is very much likely what K is feeling/thinking. we have discussed it to a certain extent - and I know he can't feel what i feel and so can't have the same 'knowing' that I do of how I would respond... but to me I know he trusts me - but at the same time - he doesn't.

The other part of what bothers me in myself about all of this is the 'ownership' aspect of this... I don't have a better word to describe it so excuse me if I offend anyone with it...

I don't ask either of them to share themselves with anyone else (though they would of course be free to) - I ask that I be able to share myself as I see fit, as I am happy with...

Surely that should be my choice? I don't understand how it diminishes what I give? I think my biggest problem is I simply do not understand their point of view - I have never been in this position, so have never confronted this issue before...

TruckerPete

12-21-2010, 06:23 PM

Hi Kat,

Just finished reading ... Here's my crack at advice. It seems like you could be in danger of losing your K because you can't stop worrying about T. T has made it abudantly clear that he needs space, quite possibly forever.

So, when you push at the wall he has erected, you are damaging yourself and in doing so, are less useful in your discussions with K. This statement of yours spoke to me ...

I ask that I be able to share myself as I see fit, as I am happy with...

I used to subscribe to this belief, and in a perfect world, I think it would be a glorious things. Your interactions with others would only enrich you, which would then enrich the lives of others you spend your time with.

However, we are far from a perfect world. The one-sided interactions you have with T are affecting K. You are emotionally drained and who has to deal with that? K. Not T, but K.

I feel for you, as I am someone with the potential to worry over an issue constantly until I've driven others mad, or contented myself with a resolution. It's not pretty. So I recommend (and it will be hard) deleting T from MSN and removing your access to his FB page. Block him if you need to. Because trust me, trying to interpret the meaning (if there is one) behind his picture/status updates is only going to cause you harm. And if it harms you, it harms K.

FlameKat

12-21-2010, 06:38 PM

Hey TP - Thanks.

I hear you loud and clear, I don't know if I have the strength to do that... I will certainly be thinking long and hard about it.

T has removed his Facebook and MSN Pictures again anyway. I was clear in the letter they were having an effect on me...

I have a lot of thinking to do and my world is about to get mondo busy again :p

Wishing for a fairy godmother to make it all work right somehow :D

FlameKat

12-21-2010, 07:17 PM

I should also say that that particular issue is a huge one for me personally...

In my previous marriage... my ex wanted me to be the perfect everything - kinda like a trophy wife type thing. If I failed... I would be punished... and I always failed at something... I was always pushed 'back into my box'... forced to be his idea of wife (whatever that happened to be at the time - it would change regularly)....

To say I am struggling with my identity would be putting it mildly... all of this, has actually helped me to shape what Mono termed 'footings'... my personal wording for this post would be the bones in my spine - everytime I learn something new about myself my back gets a little stronger... my body a little more defined from the amorphous blob it currently is (pleasant image huh :p)

A lot is going on for me... but it is simply my life, resolution may never come - but there is something here I need to learn - otherwise it wouldn't be happening... now... to figure out the right question so I can see the answer :p

FlameKat

12-27-2010, 12:28 PM

Hmm, so feeling confused all over again...

T sent me a very short and perfunctory safe travels and merry xmas email... after his very to the point email about not being friends...

I responded to it with a thanks for the thought, merry xmas etc...a shorter than normal, to the point response...

Have spoken with K about it, and have come to an understanding on certain things, the most important of which is that we will stop talking about it for a time (not decided how long yet - but a couple of months or thereabouts) as he feels sick to his tummy whenever the subject is raised. However, he still wants me to tell him if T emails again and discuss it before I respond.

Now we had a huge long conversation because of that very short email... hours long... which is good, but if he is not comfortable with me raising the subject by telling him about an email, how can i tell him about an email if we are going to end up having long discussions which would break the agreement?

And what does it mean that T contacted me? I sure as hell wasn't expecting it and it has thrown me for a loop as I was struggling hard with setting all this aside for a bit...

TruckerPete

12-27-2010, 03:34 PM

... but if he is not comfortable with me raising the subject by telling him about an email, how can i tell him about an email if we are going to end up having long discussions which would break the agreement?

Have you said just this to him? If not, do so. :)

FlameKat

12-27-2010, 07:33 PM

yes I did - just not as bluntly...

he said that what triggered the long discussion was when I had said to him that the only thing stopping him from writing T for new years (in response to a 'maybe I would like to respond too' when we were discussing our different views on why or why not either of us should discuss our response with each other first before sending) was himself.

And yet, at the same time, he is stating he doesn't want to talk about or think about it for a couple of months... so obviously not going to respond.... or initiate contact...

and the conversation wouldnt have been had if I didnt have to tell him about the email and my response...

I know he is confused, and hurting, and angry and feeling threatened, but he is also being unclear. I need to sort this out very soon, and set a time limit, and just be clear, because this confusion is making me batty, and straining us...

The best thing about the conversation was I was able to say something that made K feel better (at least for now), and I was able to get across the fact of how I feel that this is making us stronger, that because we know each other so much deeper and honestly, our love is that much deeper and stronger too...

Just really not sure how to proceed ( lol as usual )

Edit: by straining I mean; making us awkward and uncomfortable... not the actual depth of our relationship, we are stronger than ever, just maybe treating each other with kid gloves... hard to explain

FlameKat

12-30-2010, 04:20 PM

So K has a nasty habit of starting a D&M just before he has to head off for work.

Today he brought up the subject of T again. He came up with various theories about how it was his fault that T took off. I can't believe he is trying to lay the blame for T leaving at his own feet. And even with that idea - he still doesn't want to contact him and attempt to straighten it all out.

He seems to be coming to the conclusion that T had deep, deep feelings for me, and that T thought that wasn't cool as K was having problems with it. So K is now extremely angry that (in this current scenario) T decided on his own to sacrifice their friendship to save our (mine and K's) relationship.

I hurt so much for all of this... K had a thing when I met him, that he had the opposite of a Midas touch (daft bugger sometimes) ... I definitely surpass him in that field at the moment.

It's going to be a sleepless night for me (it's the middle of the night for me here). Utterly miserable right now.

FlameKat

12-31-2010, 06:04 PM

So K read my thread last night... we had a long and very deep conversation. Things are still pretty confused and we are reaching new levels of understanding.

He has signed up to the forum. Not sure if he will settle in here or continue to feel uncomfortable.

I would love to introduce you all to him... however I will let him do that as he feels comfortable.

TruckerPete

12-31-2010, 06:06 PM

WaterWolf

12-31-2010, 07:56 PM

Thanks

FlameKat

01-14-2011, 07:07 AM

So this last week, along with all the other drama, T popped his head up on MSN said one word (my name) and disappeared again...

This ripped the scabs from my barely starting to heal heart and left me raw and bleeding again (in my already stressed situation - I am not quite as thick-skinned as normal and this is so close to my heart).

Today I got an email from him - telling me I am missed deeply, that he is searching for excuses to talk to me and apologising for the contact, saying it was unfair.

The response I want to send runs like this:

T,

You are missed deeply, by both of us. Knowing that you are hurting weighs on my mind a great deal.

You need no excuse to speak with me, I am here, I miss you and I want you back in our lives. As far as I am concerned, all you need to do is add me back everywhere you removed me from and we can take it step by step from there. There is no need for apology for wanting to speak with me. It costs me a great deal to respect your wish for no communication.

There is nothing unfair about talking to me. What is unfair is the choice you made to unilaterally cut us both out of your life. What is unfair is continuing to make that choice every single day. I do not understand what it is you think you do by making that choice.

Surely it would be fairer to allow both (WaterWolf) and myself to have a voice in whether or not you are a part of our life? Surely it would be fairer to do us the courtesy, and show us the respect, of having open, and honest, communication. Hard work, discomfort and awkwardness do not deter me from working towards something beautiful, whether it be nothing more than friendship or something deeper.

(FlameKat).

..............

WaterWolf, quite understandably holds a great deal of anger and resentment, both about the way T has hurt me in this situation, abandoned their friendship and run like a coward from his feelings (general gist of a very long tirade) and intends to respond to his email quite bluntly about the above issues, including a statement to the effect that if T wants back in he (WaterWolf) expects to see the same effort deployed towards their friendship... (I have no problem with this... I do feel the need to send my own response though (after all the email WAS to me, and I have a relationship with T as well)

Should I just let WaterWolf send his response only? Should I send my response separately to WaterWolf's or together? This is really bugging me a lot...
Communication is a key issue for me... I feel I need to send my response separately and let the boys work on their stuff separately - but then I don't want to be out of the loop either...and WaterWolf isn't ready to have T back in his life yet, or at least that is what he is saying... but I am sitting here hurting from his absence.
I want to find a middle ground where I can talk with T, just talk and maybe game, and WaterWolf be okay with that... and they work things out as they are ready.

(Quick reminder: both these relationships are for me, LDR's - WaterWolf and T live in the same city)

WaterWolf is also dealing with the death of a friend (funeral tomorrow).

What is fair here? Am I wanting too much from WaterWolf at this point (in general - obviously not pushing the issue while he is dealing with the funeral etc), or am I right to expect a little movement?

nycindie

01-14-2011, 08:08 AM

I think the response you wrote is beautiful.

I also think that, for now, since the email was sent to YOU, that only you respond first. However, you could add to what you've already written something about WaterWolf also wishing to communicate to him. Maybe mention that WaterWolf is dealing with a lot right now but also feels the need to express something to T. -- and possibly even ask for permission for WW to do so??? I don't know if permission is needed, only you two know that - but at least if you mention it to T. that WW wants communication, he will be prepared to hear from him as well.

In dealing with WW, you can tell him to just deal with his grief and sadness right now, but that you are paving the way for him to communicate with T.

FlameKat

01-14-2011, 09:33 AM

Hey nycindie

It's not that WW wants communication - it's the opposite. WW is not ready to have T back yet. I am.

WW wants to speak his mind and get the anger out (that he didn't get out 3-4 months ago when all this blew up)... I do fear that T would react by leaving for good. Hpwever - it also may be the catalyst they need to really start talking again. I don't know. and, having made the mistake of sticking my nose in before am not going to get involved - I have great concerns on how it is going to affect my relationship with T though.

I know I will resent WW for pushing T away when he reached out (if that is what happens), but I also would resent not being able to speak my mind in the same situation, so am not going to interfere with that at all. WW needs to say what he needs to say and that is what will happen.

I guess I am just looking for advice on how to handle my side of things and what I can rightfully ask for in sending my own response... and what expectations I should have about being able to maintain a friendship with T if T and WW do not repair their friendship...

Am I asking WW to deal with too much if I remain friends with his oldest friend, when they are (possibly - depending on what happens) no longer friends??

SNeacail

01-14-2011, 05:09 PM

At this point, I would only respond with the following:

T,

You are missed deeply, by both of us. Knowing that you are hurting weighs on my mind a great deal.

You need no excuse to speak with me, I am here, I miss you and I want you back in our lives. As far as I am concerned, all you need to do is add me back everywhere you removed me from and we can take it step by step from there. There is no need for apology for wanting to speak with me. It costs me a great deal to respect your wish for no communication.

(FlameKat).

Leave the rest for another day, when communication has actually been re-established.

LovingRadiance

01-14-2011, 10:37 PM

Maca and I have instituted an unspoken "rule" between us that we bcc each other anything that may have pertinence to us.

It sounds like your communication in this situation would be one of those things.
We don't "intermix" our messages usually-it's confusing for the reader, we write separately from our own email accounts, but we cc or bcc each other, which means neither of us feels left out of the loop.

I do this with GG as well when it's important, but hte truth is that far fewer things are important to him than to Maca-so I don't fill his box with stuff he doesn't give a shit about.

In regards to how far to communicate-how does wolf feel about YOU re-establishing communication? It seems as though maybe that is a factor to how a response is worded?

As long as you're on the same page that it's ok for you to re-establish contact it should be ok that he doesn't wish to at this point...

I don't know the layout of your dynamic-sorry.

FlameKat

01-15-2011, 02:14 AM

Hey LR - Sorry I am still figuring out how to put our intro threads into our signatures so people can go back and have a quick read.

My thread is "Not sure where to go from here" and WW's is "Loving and Understanding..."

WW is VERY hurt by the fact that T is putting effort into communicating with me... but not saying a word to him AT ALL.

We have put forward the theory that this is perhaps because I have communicated with T about my feelings, but WW hasn't - the only time they spoke on the subject was the phone call when T walked away from both of us.

The dynamic runs something like this

WW & T = 20+ yr close friendship (sacrificed by T to protect Me & WW relationship*)
Me & WW = 2+ yr ldr + engagement
Me & T = approx 18mth ld friendship (sacrificed by T to protect Me & WW relationship*)

*also I think an attempt to protect himself from the risk of letting people in that close...

LovingRadiance

01-15-2011, 03:39 AM

I can see why WW would be hurt. They have a long history. It seems to me that there is some healing to do between them if anything functional is going to work out for you and T.....

:confused:

Jodi

01-15-2011, 05:07 AM

i'm sorry that you have been hurt.

when people leave unexpectedly, it like a sucker-punch coming out of nowhere, it totally leave you reeling.

maybe he, T, doesn't even know why he did it.

i bet when you find some peace with the situaion, Waterwolf's anger will subside.

i think you should send the note seperately, for your own peace of mind.

i hope it works out for all of you and that your heart feels less heavy real soon.

FlameKat

01-15-2011, 06:38 AM

I have come to the conclusion that yes I should send my letter, and seperately, however, I thinkit would be best if our letters are sent close together so I am going to wait to respond until WW has written his.

That said, I am antsy about leaving it for more than a few days. I also need to reclarify how WW feels about me and T communicating... for a little while there he was going to be ok with it... now that T has actually reached out... quite a bit of anger there.

I need to be able to communicate with T... it would be nice to be able to game... but i NEED to know I can talk to whomever I choose... that is a personal boundary that is non-negotiable for me... and this situation is dragging on that boundary like nails down a chalkboard.

I understand that WW is hurt, and that he holds me to blame for it, but I cannot take responsibility for his continued refusal to sort things out. And I find it unfair that my friendship with T has to be held back by his friendship (or lack thereof)... they are two seperate (though intertwined) relationships... one should not be dependent on the other's existence. Affected by - yes... but not dependent.

I don't subscribe to the view that couples should have the same friends (though it is nice when it happens), nor do I believe that one part of a couple should stop being friends with a third person because of difficulties that third person is having with the other half of the couple.

Something that hit home for me today... WW had come back from his friend's funeral, and he is naturally being more outwardly loving, sending us hugs, love kisses, telling me how much I mean to him and how much he misses us...
how much he needs me to pass those messages on to the kids... throughout the week its been like this, extra love, extra missing, extra hurt... and the theme running through it all has been the concept of the loss he would feel if something were to happen to any of us...
My problem with this is that this is exactly what I am going through every day with the loss of T. except T isn't dead - he is just there at the other end of an email, or phone call... and the ONLY things stopping me from reaching out and figuring this all out... are my respect for T's wish to have no communication (which has now been removed) and my respect for WW's feelings...
I am starting to feel like a doormat in this situation... this is not good. ever since this all exploded, I have sat on my hands, figuring myself out. The only moves I have made are to

a) join this forum and read read read and ask questions and vent here.
b) send a bday message to T
c) send a letter detailing how I feel and what I want to both WW and T (two weeks apart - WW first)
d) respond to a xmas message from T
e) respond to a msn message from T

this is in a time period of 3 1/2 months... the rest of the time I have been holding myself in, letting WW deal with what I told him in that letter (and before that)...

To add to the fingernails on the chalkboard feeling is the fact that today I got a note from another good mate (also a guy), telling me he had specifically take a holiday from work to escort me around town for the day I get in to Brissy in a few weeks.... WW responds to this news with a 'good'... this mate and I have exactly the kind of relationship that T and I were building to - not physical - but a hell of a lot of emotion and security and support, plenty of flirting and dirty talk too... the ONLY difference is that I can see more with T and would be willing to let that develop... but because of that small difference - I can't even speak to T????

And there is the other part of me that is railing at the whole thing of how WW is scared of the What If's... and how I reassure him - that's not enough, and it will never be enough... he has to know it inside himself that he isn't going to lose me... but I wish that he would just bloody trust me.

Sorry peoples... bigtime rant but I think I got it all out... sorry if it's all over the place... please feel free to take a swing at me if I am being incredibly insensitive here and if I'm not then say so too... this is all so damn confusing...

redpepper

01-15-2011, 07:05 AM

I don't think you are being insensitive flamekat... just frustrated.

FlameKat

01-15-2011, 07:36 AM

Thanks RP - definitely frustrated

any advice on how to work through this one? especially right now - I really don't want to add to WW's burdens right now... I know damn well he would see this as insensitive right now... and he'd be right... but I am really climbing walls here...

redpepper

01-15-2011, 07:48 AM

I bet you are... I think that there is nothing really you can do but wait... so go entertain your self and wait. I see know reason why you can't tell him how you feel and let him think you are insensitive as long as you add to that that you know that and are waiting patiently as a result...

FlameKat

01-15-2011, 08:04 AM

Mmmm

I would be telling him anyway - we have a thing about me holding stuff in now... it's a really bad habit I got into while married and I am learning to let things out as they crop up...

Doesn't make it any less insensitive though :P

My problem is that I am really stewing over the communication barrier... I think I would probably be respectful and not go overboard with communicating with T (if of course he doesn't go into hiding again :P) but it's the thing about not being able to do so freely... I should not have to discuss it first.. I feel like I have to ask for permission and in a way I do... it makes me feel like I am 5 years old... it makes me feel like I am doing something wrong... and to be honest I think it actually feeds WW's insecurities...

because I feel like I am doing something wrong because I have to have my communication 'approved' prior to sending or responding, not to mention the feeling I have of not being trusted because of having to discuss and come to a consensus on my response - (its my bloody response)... it makes him feel justified in feeling insecure? does that make sense? If it weren't for all this - my response would have been sent yesterday as it was written in the OP...

I feel like I should put my foot down and insist he work on his friendship with T and not worry about my friendship... that I will keep him updated and hopefully as he and T work things out it will become a little circle and there will be no need for 'updating' as such...

wishful thinking huh

*note... thinking out loud there - feel free to bash that one*

redpepper

01-15-2011, 08:12 AM

I know what you mean about feeling like you are five, but its just because it is foreign to your relationship I think. Maybe you could phrase it in terms of information rather than seeking permission. Tell him your plan and then ask what he thinks and feels about your plan instead. You could ask what he requires in order to feel secure for example. That way he will see you care and see taking his needs into consideration.

FlameKat

01-17-2011, 04:38 PM

So...

WW sent his email.

T responded very quickly (within a few hours)... essentially agreeing that he had been behaving like an ass and for us to "go in peace and I will not hurt you and yours anymore"

WW's email was not overly angry... it was to the point about hurts that had been done, and anger from those... but it was also quite plainly stated that we both want T back, and for him to stop playing mind games.

I have now sent my email. I doubt he will respond - given his response to WW.

T,

I have included below the original response I had to your email. WW has shared your response to his email with me.

I am really quite gob-smacked that you choose to keep us out your life, when it is hurting us all so deeply. There is no way around causing hurt – you tell us to go in peace, that you will cause us no further hurt – sorry but that hurts... knowing that our friendships are less important to you than the walls you attempt to erect against us... the very people who love you.

Fair or unfair, I ask that you speak to me. I ask you to give me that courtesy. I am not prepared at this point to walk away, you know how I feel on that particular topic. Frankly (yes him again) – you owe me that little piece of courtesy...

FlameKat.

T,

You are missed deeply, by both of us.

Knowing that you are hurting weighs on my mind a great deal. Yes, your actions hurt me greatly, and still do. I do not hold them against you, I would like to understand better the why’s, as I really do not at the moment, and I think that contributes quite significantly to my pain.

You need no excuse to speak with me, I am here, I miss you and I want you back in our lives. As far as I am concerned, all you need to do is add me back everywhere you removed me from and we can take it step by step from there. There is no need for apology for wanting to speak with me. It costs me a great deal to respect your wish for no communication.

There is nothing unfair about talking to me. What is unfair is the choice you made to unilaterally cut us both out of your life. What is unfair is continuing to make that choice every single day. I do not understand what it is you think you do by making that choice.

Surely it would be fairer to allow both WW and myself to have a voice in whether or not you are a part of our life? Surely it would be fairer to do us the courtesy, and show us the respect, of having open, and honest, communication. Hard work, discomfort and awkwardness do not deter me from working towards something beautiful, whether it be nothing more than friendship or something deeper.

I would like to move forward and enjoy our friendship again, but I also need to have the same openness from you, that I give to you. I also need you to give that same consideration to WW (and vice versa). I want to fix this, I can’t do that alone.

Kat.

Anyway...

There are a lot of things going on becase of this last slap in the face. Not least of which is WW's conclusion that I may never be able to let this go. And he may be right... one thing about me is when I fall - I fall deep...

I need to figure out how to let this go.... it's killing me right now - literally feeling as though my insides are being shredded and churned through some giant and slow meat grinder....

I feel abandoned. I shared so much of myself with T, he asked, he cared, he consoled... and then he just left - without a word... and well, - most have read my story now...

how do I move through this? I haven't slept properly (it's 2.30 am here) since he sent that email to me, eating isn't great... I don't know how to set it aside again...

Poor WW said he could see maybe one day going and trying himself to get T to come back for me.... and that just hurt even more... that he can see a time when he would voluntarily do that - because of the sheer pain I am in right now...

any ideas on how to push through this? any advice at all?

FlameKat

01-18-2011, 06:31 AM

We are going to have a talk !!!!

T responded and the boys have sorted out that we will talk in about two weeks!!!

(I am going away for a few days and if the talk goes badly WW doesn't want me stewing by myself in the middle of the outback with no communication to anyone and T is going back to work and won't be back for 2 weeks)

WW made 2 requests... the first being that the talk not happen until after my trip. The second being that if T and I come to a decision to try and make things work - the first conversation about that be between the three of us...

I know I shouldn't let myself hope that everything will be okay - but I need the relief from the pain... and just knowing that we WILL talk about it in a couple of weeks is... I can only describe it as 'I can breathe again'...

redpepper

01-18-2011, 06:32 AM

breathing is good...
;)

WaterWolf

01-23-2011, 09:10 AM

redpepper

01-23-2011, 07:02 PM

and now I can't breath...
:(uhoh, what happened?:confused:

FlameKat

01-24-2011, 09:46 AM

it's okay... WW hadn't read that post... and responded to it before he spoke to me...

It's all hitting home a little hard right now... a lot of what if's popping up and wanting to put the brakes on and run the other way. We have talked and are on an even keel again - for now.

WW is still uncomfortable posting on here... but we do talk things through and he assures me he is reading a lot of the things on here.
At the moment he is unwilling to discuss any particulars of what he is reading... so I am not sure really how much or what he is taking from here - but we are good and strong and communicating and that is the most important thing right now.

*unwilling may be the wrong word - it could be he simply isn't ready/able to discuss what he has read in an objective manner... there's no rush though :D

FlameKat

01-30-2011, 02:13 AM

So T and I spoke...

The result is not what i have wished for and T is exiting our lives. somewhat.

T (in a backhanded way) admitted he had fallen in love with me, but that what I wanted was, simply, not right. After some more discussion he said it wouldn't be right in WW's world but more importantly wasn't right in his... that he would likely go insane...

That was an answer I could live with... not the part about WW - he is trying to understand and accept this side of me. The part about T likely going insane - if that is how he feels about it (and he assured me he had given it a LOT of thought) then I wouldn't want him to try...

Even with that, neither of us was able to say goodbye once again, so we have settled with a maybe one day in the future we can be friends again, just not now.
WW is not pleased with the way the conversation ended (in fact he said it scared him immensely)... as I wear a ring that matches one I was going to give to T (T knows about this, at the time the rings were purchased they were to be friendship rings), he told me to keep it and maybe if our paths cross I can give it to him then... I hold such attachment to his ring that I need to give it to him,

so I said I would give it to him or mail it...

he said his only condition still applies (that I give it in person), and that if he takes a trip down to my island I could give it then,

and I said I would likely be there first and he had guaranteed himself a visit then.

which he replied would not be a good idea and that he had gotten sidetracked, and we went back to figuring out how to say goodbye without leaving a raw wound...

we settled with saying goodnight.

(this was to me - a good way for us to leave it... the whole rip it off like a bandaid approach really wasn't working for me - I had huge balls of pain from it - well my description is above in this thread somewhere - this is a much gentler approach which is final _ no more communication now_ but the possibility is there for communication to reopen at some point in the future) that said I am not skipping along for joy - I am still grieving... but there are no huge wads of pain, I am not overly choked up and I can breathe :D I can live with this.

WW says we are now set up for an affair to happen. I disagree - I have slightly more faith in my own strength, as well as in T's. Having an affair would also imply that I stopped talking to WW and being honest - which hurt me quite a lot. WW says the power of the passion evident between T and I means that as good intentions as we have... we would likely give in to how we feel.
That is a statement I find difficult to argue with as my feelings are very strong, and as I haven't seen T since those feelings developed I do not know how being close to him in person will enhance those feelings. I do still find it unlikely though.
That said, latent and repressed feelings do have a way of rearing up and biting people in the arse.

Comment on the thoughts shared above are more than welcome... I personally would like some insight from other perspectives...

FlameKat

02-17-2011, 11:28 AM

So at some point after Yasi hit, T put a picture on facebook again (this is after specifically telling me that he has no friends on facebook, and that he would be giving us this space)... he then allowed me to see him change his picture (on msn) and add his sister to his MSN friends - (I was the only other contact on his profile...) and then deleted and blocked me.

Sometime in the last couple of days he has changed his facebook picture to the one he had on MSN... and I just saw him sign in and out of MSN - which means he has added me back to his contacts and unblocked me.

WW noticed his facebook picture change and has changed his picture to match, saying that he is going to play picture tag essentially. (Which I find a wee bit petty and somewhat...territorial? - either way it makes me uncomfortable)

I'm not sure what the fuck is going on... I am glad that T is back (wish he would just bloody talk), but upset that WW is upset and hurting again. I don't think T knows what he wants - I have been quite clear with both of them how I feel and what I want... I also was very clear that I would not be leaving WW. (WW feels it likely that T may flip flop around for some time before deciding at some point to try and make me choose).

Oh and just to be clear some of it may be my fault - I sent two emails... one a warning message about a new spider (which may or may not be a hoax)... and another an awesome fail from a news channel... I massmailed them... and forgot (didn't even occur to me) that T was still in one of the groups I massmailed them to, along with WW... so now WW is saying that just receiving those emails would have been a reminder for T and might be triggering his actions...

Aaaaaargh... so confused, so hurt again.. and yet hopeful too... I really hope that T figures out he needs to talk to WW... before he talks to me... I have my doubts though - he knows he will get a much friendlier reception from me... talking to WW will be hard. especially because he said he would be giving us our space... and he would be going back on his word by talking to either of us.

I also think T will talk to me first - because I made it clear that I want him to just talk when he needs to... no picture changing... just talk. made him hear me on that one... I think that the current change of pictures is meant to be a warning that he is planning to talk... but hey - what do I know?? I'm the one that really got this mess started...

nycindie

02-17-2011, 09:22 PM

I really don't understand how much, nor why, people let Facebook be such a huge factor in handling relationships. People change their pictures all the time. Why would that mean anything at all?

And the MSN thing. Could have been a temporary glitch. Why is someone logging in there any indication of... anything? Might as well send up smoke signals.

I don't know. I'm very selective about whom I connect with on FB, the pics I put up, the updates I post. I make it so none of my friends can even see who else I'm friends with, and no one can post to my Wall. I don't think I would friend anyone there with whom I'm involved romantically. I read about people saying personal things on FB and getting into fights over it. WTF? It just shouldn't be so important. Relating and communicating directly to the people you're with is more important.

I hate the fact that I've even begun to say important things to people in email. To me, that's a cop-out. In person or on the phone is always better. Those two need to talk? Why doesn't someone make a call? It's perplexing to me.

redpepper

02-17-2011, 10:08 PM

Someone told me today that its possible to edit out peoples status updates. I didn't know that! Could be handy no?

FlameKat

02-18-2011, 02:16 AM

the significance of the picture changing? and the use of msn? T is very similar to you NYCyndie - very very selective and careful about what he does in such a public forum... everything he does on facebook or MSN has a purpose or reason behind it - even if he is unsure exactly what that is.

Also - this is a ldr for us all WW & T live in the same city in Canada - I live in Australia... facebook/msn/email/skype are how we communicate - T and I did not use skype.

he blocked me from his msn... and now suddenly I can see him sign in and out again - especially as the ONLY reason he even has MSN was me - I was his only contact on there - not even WW was on his MSN.

The picture changing - is tantamount to him standing in a public room shouting I am over here look at what I am saying... again he specifically said to me that he would be leaving facebook (he had previously been discussing that he was uncomfortable with the medium and would be deleting his account - this was prior to any of the relationship issues came into play) and giving us back that space... My job requires me to use facebook daily, as I run the facebook page for the website I admin and also run the facebook page for a hotel... he knows that whether I look for him or not he will be visible to me.

more importantly - WW agrees with this view of what T is doing. T would not ever say he is going to do something and then NOT do it... he feels this shows the immense personal struggle T is having by trying to stay away from us...

@RP I can't see his status updates as he removed us from his friends lists...

The significance is also that he DID delete me from MSN... he also deleted his fb account... then suddenly after I am in a lifethreatening situation (global news so he would have heard) his picture pops back into facebook... then a week or so later his picture changes and suddenly I can see him in MSN again... it is significant... the why is what I'm venting about... I have no way of knowing, and I was in an ok place...

I am still in a mostly ok place... but I don't like that this has stirred up WW, or brought the poly question back into the forefront of our thoughts... I want what I want and I can't change that... I guess what I am looking for here right now - is some empathy that this is all still so unsure.

and how to help WW deal with the uncertainty...

redpepper

02-18-2011, 04:14 AM

good for you asking us for what you need; empathy. I can see how this would be very difficult and hurtful. Games, all games. I suppose you could ask him if he wants to talk. Maybe he just doesn't know how to approach you again. Or you could decide to roll your eyes, smile a little and ignore him until you have solid proof he is trying to send a message.

As for supporting WW through the uncertainty? I think it might be best to take a breath and let it go. You really don't have any choice and why waste energy on guessing?

SNeacail

02-18-2011, 05:05 AM

I agree with RP, just roll your eyes, smile and let it go. Changing pictures and turning on and off fb/msn accounts is a lousy way to communicate. Like I tell my kids, "Don't grunt and point and expect me to know what you were trying to tell me much less expect me to respond to it."

Look at it this way, if he is changing his pictures, he is more than likely alive and well.

FlameKat

02-27-2011, 08:26 AM

wishing that this side of me was something i could set aside... wishing that the repressing of it didn't hurt just as much as repressing how i feel for T...

all the while hoping/knowing that there will be something that gives at some point in the future... just wish i knew when (and whether it will be my sanity that goes first :P)

still WW is right - there hasn't been a single month since this has been brought up that something hasn't happened...

Valentines day T popped back into fb and changed his pics, this week he opened it up so i can see his wall (with everything deleted except for a comment he had left on my status the year before... "receptive" ) - and yes i can see the dates on his damn pics now... stupid me for being curious about the change, he deleted a huge number of prof pics he had used over the last few months and now there are only four - all of which are significant... one was mentioned in my letter, one reminds me of a comment he made about how he would love someone in my situation from afar, before everything blew up. the other two were both put up on Valentines day, one is a lonely/thoughtful character... and the other is a close up of himself...

if i could just let go then i bloody would... i hate hurting WW, and I hate feeling like this... whatever this feeling is... the thing is though... WW and I aren't talking about it anymore... he is so right about him not getting to have a break from thinking about it.... but at the same time if I notice something and it bothers me - he wants me to talk to him about it... I can't bloody win... he seems to be using the lack of settle time as an excuse to not progress/even think at all about it, in any way... and I am starting to feel resentful... and I hate that.

It's not his fault that I am like this... It's not his fault that I didn't discover this about myself until we were already in love, and until I was already in love with someone else. BUT - It's not my fault either... If I had known I would have been walking around with flashing neon signs - arrows pointing to my head saying "guaranteed to drive you crazy" (okay maybe a small exaggeration there :P but i wouldn't have been hiding it - i would have been upfront about it)...

I'm not asking him to change who he is, I am asking him to accept this about me... I think I have done pretty well in respecting how he feels, I have given him as much space about it - within the limits of still maintaining open and honest communication - as I can, and I haven't been pursuing the other relationship... I HAVE maintained my position of loving them both.

I am at a loss of what to do... and letting it go? as i said - I would if i could... and to me if I COULD just let it go... it wouldn't say much for the quality and strength of my love... If it were absolutely clear that T had moved on, didn't want anything to do with me... that would hurt but it would give me no choice but to move on... as it is, with him popping on and off msn... and the changes on fb (particularly as they are so out of character and ARE essentially his version of screaming to the world)... leave me torn... I WANT to sort it out, I WANT to have this work, I WANT us to work it out together...

It is also as frustrating as all get-out that WW has essentially made it a condition of me talking to T (or vice versa), that T talk to WW. I get it - but it is not a helpful thing, I think.

I believe that T allowed himself to start falling in love with me because he thought he was safe... that I obviously loved WW so much, there was no chance of me returning his feelings... and then when it became apparent that I did...and worse what I wanted... he panicked, and also allowed guilt to consume him about betraying his friendship with WW (which I don't think would be the case if I didn't return the feelings... interesting concept there), but he had fallen too far himself and now cannot himself walk away. because of all that - I don't think he has the first clue about how to talk to WW... and WW has no interest in talking to T. and I am eating my just desserts...

sorry for the long rant - if anyone has the magic code of how to switch my heart off ... let me know huh?? please feel free to discuss my thoughts... i am feeling down and need some empathy... but really need some new ideas to help work through this - cos mine obviously arent working.

and RP (and anyone else with awesome tag recalling skills) - if you read this one - i would be most pleased with some tag search ideas... i am up to speed with most of the recent threads - if there are some older ones (12mths +) on similar topics I have probably missed them (and apart from the more active members I haven't delved into too many blogs).

specifically... how do i help WW take another step or two - or at least allow me to communicate with T (yes - if T is willing, but the key for me at the moment is having WW okay with the idea and actuality of that)?

or conversely, help me find ways to let go AND find peace inside myself (which also needs for me to feel accepted by WW)??

*tootling off now to occupy myself in something thoroughly random... in a blatant attempt to stop focusing on this particular white elephant*

redpepper

02-27-2011, 08:58 PM

Oh Flamecat. This is driving you nuts. I wish there would be some change for you on this. I don't think that anyone can change it but you and cut your ties with him. Delete him from FB for starters. He is tearing you apart and the only way forward I see is to not look so that you can move forward. I fear you are missing out on other things while going through this. He will know how to find you if you let him go. You could even send a message to say that you need a break from him for a certain length of time and that it's hard for you to see his movements on line... then stick to the time frame.

I can't think of any tagged threads that relate. My friend is the only person I have seen go through this. She had a friend that became a lover over time but in a fit of self hatred she dumped my friend and told her that lesbians were disgusting, couldn't believe she thought it was a good idea to be together and that she should be ashamed of herself for being into women. My friend was obviously upset and began following her on fb as a way to stay connected... the woman set privacy settings for a while so she couldn't see. Then would take them off. Then would put them back on for some purpose... she followed her for years! This woman moved to another city, got married, divorced, and then the last glimpse when the settings were lifted was she started dating a woman and wanted my friend to talk to about it... That didn't work out and she dumped her again on FB!!!!

My friend told me this and we talked long and hard about her dumping her on FB, when she did there was a visible lift off of her. She didn't struggle as much as she thought she would in the end. It was a huge release and she wished she had done it well before... this woman had manipulated her feelings for years. There came a lot of anger, shame along with the relief..

FlameKat

02-28-2011, 12:05 AM

*rueful smile*

I really shouldn't post when I am in a whirlpool of despair :p

I am not missing out on things, and yes it drives me crazy inside... but one thing I got out my marriage was the ability to continue my everyday life even while my insides are churning, I laugh, am happy, i still game and work, WW and I are GOOD... I just have moments when it all goes to hell inside me - this is the first time I can remember of having somewhere to speak freely and in complete safety about how I feel in those moments...

I do find it worrisome how deeply I react/feel in those times... but overall I am good :D

I know what my options are... I need to get communication happening between all three of us, or I need to stop loving T.

And that is just the way I am... I can't let go if I still love him... um... how to explain...

It's the connection, as long as I love someone I want to know they are okay... I want to be able to call them up out of the blue and say "hey - how are you doing?" I am not demanding that this relationship be pursued... I am requesting I be given that little bit...

I would like to be able to just let things develop by themselves... just because I love T doesn't mean that in the end we would have the relationship I would like to have... but to prevent ANY relationship, and in particular, to be prevented by someone outside that relationship itself... is driving me nuts. This is the important thing for me - despite whatever T does - if he closed up his profile again and never opened it again... that would be ok...if he comes back and opens communication lines... that would be ok. It is the fact the restriction on my communication* with T was put in place by WW... and his condition to it reopening is something I have no control over... it is something that is not dependant on my actions/intentions/thoughts/or anything to do with our relationship and trust between us... it is bound to something external to us... it is bound to T's actions/thoughts/place in life it is bound to THEIR relationship and whether either of them gets off their arses and does something about it... I mean if the condition to doing something I need to do, is bound upon factors that are bound to WW and T achieving some semblance of communication - do I not have a right to expect WW (as it is his condition) to make an effort towards attaining that goal - or is he within his right to set that boundary and then refuse to work on the condition to removing it??

I left home at 16 because of people trying to control me (and got myself into a situation where i spent 15 years being controlled down to what i wore and said/who i was friends with and when and what i could speak to them about)

This situation is triggering those issues in a major way. I have given up the control of this to WW... and am finding out that I am really not okay with it... I am... but I am also SO NOT.

*adding here that this restriction was agreed to while very emotional... while feeling guilty about the pain WW was going through - at the time. because he has not had his 'at least one month without it ('it' being polamory or T) being mentioned' I do not feel I can ask him to revisit this yet.

And WW would be utterly devestated to realise this is how I am feeling. Specifically, that I am feeling controlled. The last thing he would ever want to do is behave in a way that revisits those feelings for me... I acknowledge to a large degree these feelings are mine to own.. and to deal with... I need an outside perspective though - are my feelings utterly irrational here - or is it visible to others why I might be feeling in such a way? and how do I go about reducing the feeling of control? I don't want to push WW (well I do - but not until he is ready)... I DO want to figure myself out and get over this hurdle.

FlameKat

03-03-2011, 11:48 PM

Since my last post I have spent alot of time feeling 'grey'... and well... like a zombie. Today I have come to the realisation that I have been doing what I did in my marriage - I have been allowing myself to feel like the victim here, I have given over my power to be myself to someone else...

NOT good at all.

I have realised that who I am doesn't hurt WW... I do not hurt him... my actions don't hurt him... It's him... It's his expectations for me to be just like him that hurt him... It's his desire to have me love the same way he does that hurts him...

Thanks to Tonberry's post on another thread :D she said the same things I have been saying for weeks - just in another way that made it recognisable to me... and in a way that made it recognisable that what I have been doing is trying to deny who/how I am even as I fight for it (talk about muddled up huh).

I am not at fault, I am not disgusting or greedy or flighty or a cheat or less loving or any of the other multitude of things that run through my mind when I try to justify the way WW reacts... I am ME... and I am beautiful the way I am...

and I am angry, I am very very angry, that I have let myself feel like this again... what is wrong with me that I would let myself hurt so badly? that I would take on someone elses pain and claim it as my own? Now those two things ARE my issues...

And I have every right in the world to not only talk to him about how I am feeling, but expect him to hear me. I don't have the right to expect him to be okay with what he hears, and I don't have the right to expect him to hang around... but I do have the right to expect him to deal with it honestly and openly if he does hang around, and I do have the right to not feel like I need to constantly squash down who I am to ease his pain - what about my pain? Why do I constantly sacrifice myself?

Now to see if my inner bitch can be sustained :p

redpepper

03-03-2011, 11:59 PM

I don't have the right to expect him to be okay with what he hears, and I don't have the right to expect him to hang around... but I do have the right to expect him to deal with it honestly and openly if he does hang around, and I do have the right to not feel like I need to constantly squash down who I am to ease his pain - what about my pain? Why do I constantly sacrifice myself?Thanks for your whole post Flamecat! Very strong and empowered... awesome! you are so right on all fronts. Good for you!

this quote is so helpful to me as a reminder. I appreciate it... I'm going on my first date with Leo tonight since our.... "incident." I will be thinking on this tonight as I assess where I am at in my body and mind. thanks.:)

nycindie

03-03-2011, 11:59 PM

Woo-hoo! You go girl!

Now, don't waste time and energy directing your anger at yourself. Use it constructively, as a motivating factor in pursuing what would maximize your happiness. You just discovered something about how you were operating and that revelation is valuable. So what if you've done it before? You're seeing it now, as a pattern you tend to fall into, and this is good because now you know what to look for.

Think of life like a mountain, with a road winding around and around it, which we must take to reach the top. At some point during our travels, we find ourselves on the same hillside we were before, just at a higher level.

Inner bitch - haha, I love it! That can be the fuel to get up the mountain road!

FlameKat

03-04-2011, 05:40 AM

Thanks for your whole post Flamecat! Very strong and empowered... awesome! you are so right on all fronts. Good for you!

this quote is so helpful to me as a reminder. I appreciate it... I'm going on my first date with Leo tonight since our.... "incident." I will be thinking on this tonight as I assess where I am at in my body and mind. thanks.:)

Glad it helped you RP :D your posts have helped me so much its about time i said something helpful :p

LOL - we talked, and talked - well I typed, he listened and talked and i typed some more (bloody speech dysphasia... we tried a period where i refused to type when i was emotional in an attempt to force my self to speak... didn't work :p) we are back to being on an even keel now... not moving forward yet but we have talked and that is key, and now we have a FlameKat MUST talk policy :D no more squishing down and sacrificing myself... that is enough for me for now :D I have too many issues to work through to contemplate any more than that at the moment anyway

FlameKat

03-13-2011, 07:39 PM

*sigh*

I suck at the whole not squishing myself down thing... I utterly loathe the thought of hurting WW consciously... as in - I know what I have to say will hurt him... so I don't say it.

So he doesn't know that I am struggling daily with the need to talk to T still... well he probably does realise it - just not the extent of the struggle, nor the degree of pain...

I decided last week that this need to communicate is like an addiction... (I quit smoking cold-turkey 2 years ago (after 16 years of smoking)... this theory doesn't seem to be helping... going by the last actual communication* (end of January) it would be 6? weeks... (before that Boxing Day... and before that mid November...) and the 'craving' is just as intense as it was then... and getting stronger... quitting smoking was so much easier.

*I am viewing the picture changing etc as similar to walking into a counter shop and seeing cigarettes over the counter... silently calling you to buy the pack and have another smoke...*

I get the feeling this approach isn't going to work for me either... and I have no faith in it anyway... If it were just an addiction surely the craving would be going away - or at least my attention would have switched to someone else... something somewhere would be different... but it isn't...

I don't remember exactly what I said to WW when he asked me, but the pain now is not much different than when T first left... I think it is a combination of getting used to the pain, and having some of the pain eased by T hanging around and his semi-admission that he loves me too.

AND I am fairly certain that WW is no longer even looking around in here as he hasn't commented on a single one of these posts since his last post. Not even in passing.

My inner bitch appears to be sulking... and I am not entirely sure of whether I should slap her in the face to get her roaring again or whether I should persevere a little longer with my addiction theory...

FlameKat

03-14-2011, 06:36 AM

So now I am at yet another stage of bitchiness in this ongoing quest to wrap my head around this thing that is but isn't....

I have decided that right now I am somewhat offended by the change in WW's attitude... 6 months ago he was very much... I can understand how he would fall in love with you, you are an amazing woman etc and so forth...

The picture now is that he is angry about it... very much a 'how he dare he' kind of attitude... a 'how could he do this to me' kind of thing...

I am rather offended that I am no longer thought of as being wonderful enough for someone other than him to fall in love with... it confuses me a fair bit actually... if I am not special enough for anyone else to fall in love with then what does that say about his love?? (Just to clarify - I KNOW WW loves me to beyond the nth degree... I am just saying I don't understand the thought process here, and am offended by the implication - even though it isn't the case)...

I am truly a headcase right now :P glad I have this spot to vent :D

*note - mods I am thinking it might be an idea to combine my two main threads into a blog with a new name... :P if thats okay let me know and I will come up with a new name for them :D

nycindie

03-14-2011, 06:46 AM

Flamekat, just a note that I think is important. Feeling hurt or offended is a choice one makes. Think about it this way: someone could actually even try to hurt or offend you but it might not faze you, you could laugh it off if you look at something a certain way.

So when someone does something we view as offensive, we have a choice: feel offended or look at the behavior for what it is. If we try to see it from their point of view and cannot understand it, perhaps we never will. Or perhaps a conversation is called for.

However...

The important thing is to ask yourself:

What's the pay-off in feeling offended? What does going to that response buy you? We always have reasons for the choices we make, even if they're irrational and don't make sense to the conscious mind. So why feel offended? It would be very productive to explore that.

There's an exercise I was taught a long time ago: for one full day, every time you hear yourself complain or grumble about something, whether silently to yourself or aloud to others, add the words "and this is what I want" to the end of your complaint. Do that for a day and see what insights it brings you - you might be surprised!

FlameKat

03-14-2011, 07:14 AM

Thanks NYC - I'll give it a whirl... I guess I wasn't clear enough in my post - I am not truly offended by the change in WW's thinking pattern... I know he is working through his own stuff, and what he is perceiving as betrayal? by T is where his thoughts are coming from... I wish he didn't see it that way but he does..

I was more offended by the concept behind that change and am well aware that that was coming from myself and the way I am/was thinking... I am learning I have incredibly derogatory self talk and a second guessing suspicious little mind... of which I can guarantee nearly 99.99% comes from my abusive marriage... The problem as I see it at the moment - apart from the conclusions I have drawn in the last few posts - is letting go of that self-talk... not easy as it is an almost 2 decade habit... thinking about myself in a positive manner - again not easy... my self talk includes lines like 'rat-faced, flat-chested whore'.. a direct quote from my ex btw... so I know where the talk is coming from... I just don't know how to stop it... I don't know how to get that scum out of my head. He's gone from my heart - dead/isolated... but his words are still in my damn head...

nycindie

03-14-2011, 07:43 AM

my self talk includes lines like 'rat-faced, flat-chested whore'.. a direct quote from my ex btw... so I know where the talk is coming from... I just don't know how to stop it... I don't know how to get that scum out of my head. He's gone from my heart - dead/isolated... but his words are still in my damn head...

Aww, my heart goes out to you. I wish I could just tell you, "Stop that!" and it would work. Perhaps somehow, deep down, a part of you believes it. You could try substituting positives for every negative. Don't let yourself entertain those thoughts. Each time you start to call yourself that, short-circuit it with things like "beautiful, sensual goddess."

((((HUGS))))

FlameKat

03-14-2011, 07:51 AM

Aww, my heart goes out to you. I wish I could just tell you, "Stop that!" and it would work. Perhaps somehow, deep down, a part of you believes it. You could try substituting positives for every negative. Don't let yourself entertain those thoughts. Each time you start to call yourself that, short-circuit it with things like "beautiful, sensual goddess."

((((HUGS))))

LOL... Thanks, hugs much appreciated...

I did snigger at the beautiful sensual goddess comment... :(

Normally I just try to remove any description of myself from my self talk... I have one photo taken in the last 4 years in which I can look at myself and say I can see the real me in it... look into my own eyes and see myself... and I find that sad. I rarely look in a mirror and while I do take care of my appearance I could do a much better job of it :p

Having said that... I do on the odd occassion catch myself being attractive (intellectually speaking)... and try to do that more often :D It's a strange thing to realise that people don't see me the way I see me... I become self-conscious in moments like that... I love it... but its weird :p

One day I will get there... (spoken like a true fan of "The Little Engine That Could")

FlameKat

03-14-2011, 01:11 PM

*mods* the two threads I want to combine are "Not sure of where to go from here..." and this one...

New name: Sifting through the ashes...

relocting to Life stories and Blogs please... thanking whoever does it :D

FlameKat

03-20-2011, 06:28 AM

Soooo.... my suckiness at not squashing myself down has reached new levels...

not really... I just am so used to putting everybody elses needs/wants before my own I appear to be somewhat incapable of even putting mine out near the radar detector...

my big wad of pain is back... triggered off by my eldest daughter... apparently I am not a good enough mum, i don't say what she wants me to say and nor do I do what she wants me to do... said she has a countdown for the day I move overseas... we are back on speaking terms after that (she's my daughter and needs me - what else can i do but take it) but the pain from that attack is welling up the pain from my marriage - not good enough/pretty enough/kinky enough/naughty enough/anything enough really... and the pain from discovering my poly-ness...

my fb status (made while inner bitch in force :p):
has had a gutful of people expecting her to act and be a certain way - sorry... i am ME. and as heartbreaking as it is, its okay if you aren't okay with who I am... because I know the truth about who I am and what I feel... one day you will see that too.

refers to my daughter and WW and T and anyone else who makes me feel there are expectations on my behaviour... why is it not good enough for anyone that I just be me?

It is such a huge struggle to feel 'good enough' or deserving, or any of the 'good about myself' things... I don't know what the result of this journey is going to be... I don't know anything at all... and it is so bloody scary delving into these dark places alone... WW isn't here with me - and I can't figure out whether that is because he doesn't want to be or because I can't ask for help... well I already know I can't/don't/won't ask for help... so I guess this is on me... I don't ask him because I don't want to deal with his hurt too, i accept the responsibility for all of it - even though just a few posts ago i said it wasn't mine... i still believe it is. and I would do anything to not hurt him, but i can't not be me... I think a huge part of the pain is hiding how I feel about T... just not being open about it - it so goes against my grain.. its not who I am to be careful about what i say to people, and before this blew up i was easy about saying that i love him (T) to people - even the kids... they didn't understand in what way (neither did I really) but i could still say it... now he's gone and we don't talk and the kids would figure it out and if I say it I will break down and create a scene... the kids have noticed I am different since I came back from my trip over there... more grumpy. distant. unavailable. are their words... it's not fair to them for me to be holding myself in, its not fair to me, its not fair to WW - so why am I doing it? because I am afraid. I am afraid of losing WW. I am afraid of losing the dreams and life we have built together... I am afraid of hurting my children and losing their trust (they are SO fragile) - I am afraid they will see me as disgusting/a cheat/despicable etc for hurting WW. I am afraid I will send my eldest into a meltdown... but I am quickly reaching my own meltdown point again... I just don't know how to deal with this.

and thats just the fear of being open about how I feel... let alone the fears that come along with the idea of trying to pursue a relationship with T (especially as he has made it abundantly clear that he feels it would not work and would be wrong)... would I be poly if it weren't for T - yes - would I actively look - no - would i get this screwed up about someone else - i really friggin hope not.

I simply do not understand this side of me.. I am usually a happy-go-lucky fun type, (not bubbly and ditzy - but fun)... easy come easy go kind of thing... I don't understand why I can't let go... I don't understand why I hurt SO much... (what's the attraction for me in banging my head against a brick wall...)

my own pain is almost a palpable thing to me now... how is it that i am so capable a soothing other people's pains and fears and helping them remove it from themselves - but can't do that for myself? what am i supposed to learn from this - other than it completely fucking hurts?

*RP - don't freak - it's just another meltdown moment for me - i will be good again in an hour or so... I just have to get it out...and I am going to direct WW to come here and read tonight... I checked his profile and it's been a month since he's been in here... and this seems to be where I do my processing so, as I can't easily talk about it... he's just going to have to read about it*

*WW - when you read this honey... its not because I can't talk to you that I write here... it's because I can't hurt you... I don't know if you will understand that but we can talk about it... I find it difficult to process my own tangents too when I am answering questions or explaining - it is easier for me to simply write it out and worry about explanations/questions etc afterward... and why here?
because there are (completely unbiased) people here that I trust to tell me if I am being a complete berk with my head up my arse... or to give me advice on how to handle some of this stuff...or give another perspective... plus I am here a lot reading the threads and trying to accept this... I know you feel that maybe this isn't who I am if I am having so much trouble with it - I look at it as I have seen myself - and what I saw doesn't fit in with the traditional stereotype - much as gay men/women experience when they realise their sexuality about themselves as already grown men/women - the difference being gay people now have a measure of tolerance and acceptance in the community... this is different from that. And part of it is also that I am thinking that maybe P sensed this about me, sensed the threat in it to him and that is why he treated me the way he did (yes I know - taking responsibility for more stuff that isn't mine to own - but that is what is running through my head - and making things so difficult for me on top of causing you pain... which is the chief thing that stops me from talking to you... i see the daily stuff you are dealing with and don't want to burden you... and I know that isn't fair... to either of us...)

I really am damaged goods.

*sorry for the length people...

FlameKat

03-21-2011, 07:12 AM

well... WW read the thread, he is now up to date with where I am. and seems to have drawn his own conclusions as to what is going on here for me.

He has been processing, just not in here... and not to the extent I would appreciate. His focus has been on the disasters and trauma going on around us on an almost daily basis at the moment. The emergencies are certainly stressful but they are a normal part of life here, so for me are dealt with as part of day to day routine (or seasonal routine), they do leave me with a heightened need for communication with my loved ones (ALL of them) though - much as anyone would feel. For me it puts my focus on those I am NOT in contact with on a daily basis as opposed to those I see everyday and know are okay.

So anyway, we still are in a bit of a holding pattern and he wants me to talk to my family about how I am feeling first... as he thinks the secrecy thing is a huge issue for me... I'm not too sure on this - I am planning to have some chats to two very close friends while I am down in Brisbane and hopefully catch up with Sage for a chat :D

Likely the talking to my mum and to the kids (just the elder girls) will help with alleviating the holding in part of what is going on for me. Just not being able to talk is a huge deal for me... and having it all out in the open will be painful and difficult but will I think be healing for us all. and I think it will help me in processing further how I am feeling with all the secrecy gone.

Not too sure how much detail to go with though... I will go with the flow when I do, of course, but not sure how much to start with and where to draw the line.

FlameKat

03-28-2011, 07:29 AM

Have just been reading the 'coming out' thread pretty thoroughly... I have definite worries about the effect my telling the kids will have on them... but more to the point if I'm going to be out then I might as well be out fully. And that WILL cause problems.

Now I am not saying that I would want to come out to everyone in a big show or anything like that... but I do work on an honesty is best policy and I also do try to not hide things* (as mentioned previously in this thread) as it takes an enormous toll on me. Being open to some and not others would be confusing to me, particularly with the short term memory loss.

*not hiding things as differentiated from from not being ready/able to speak up about them*

Either way... If I am going to be out to my family I would appreciate being able to be out on my fb (as the girls are on there and would likely mention it on my wall (they have already outed me as gay and bi anyway... :P I may possibly be bi-curious with very much hetero leanings but definitely not gay ~ my teenage years were ... interesting times :D )

this will cause problems as I am pretty sure the kids dad uses my son's facebook to look at my page... I am also fb friends with some of WW's family... and a proportion of his friends/co-workers as well... I tend to be rather ouspoken and would likely become a bit of an advocate for poly via my page...

I think this would cause a great deal of distress for WW, and if I were not 'out' on fb it would cause in me some of the same feelings I am dealing with now - about not being able to communicate - only this time with anyone... about something important to me - right now it is my choice... if I were to come out to the kids... i would come out on fb as well... it is simply the way I am.

*just had another whatsamecallit (lightbulb over head moment)... forgotten the word... anyhoo... part of the reason I am unable to consider not being out on fb or in WW's world... is that in a sense... I have already lived a double life... as an abused wife.. I hid it for 15 years... and I am not comfortable with hiding any part of myself, if it is something I am hiding for another person to be ok? I'm not sure how exactly to express this thought... I hid the abuse because that made things ok for the ex - not for me, to hide the poly for WW, to make it ok for WW, not for me... would be a similar feeling to me... and something we need to discuss big time BEFORE I get on the coming out bandwagon - because that bandwagon is already building inside me. *please do comment on this one - need help with sorting this out in my head :p*

Will have another chat about this with WW tonight... there is no major rush on this one :D at the moment anyway... being able to see the various triggers and needs behind my feelings gives me that much distance for objectivity (at least for now :D )

bella123456

03-28-2011, 11:56 AM

I'll comment, as you have specifically asked for comments. FK - I don't know your story too well...I think I've glimpsed it on occasion, so I could well be not quite on target with my comments.

I will start by saying I also left an abusive marriage, verbally and emotionally with pretty much only the odd touch of physical abuse thrown in for good measure. But, I think in terms of abuse, the question of physical vs emotional is really just two sides of the same coin.
I look back and about 5 years before I left I started looking for validation from my loved ones. The odd chat with a friend, the odd chat with my mum, trying to slyly work out if this shit went on in other people's lives. I slowly tried to expose what was going on in my life - A cry for help, yes - But a faint cry that was definitely tainted by my fears of repercussions.

I understand that abuse works best with no witnesses - It is dependant on closed doors, or on other people closing their eyes.

In my opinion coming out is very different. I understand not wanting to live a double life, and I can see why that pulls some triggers for you. But it could be more a case of your perception (in terms of double life) instantly linking (or triggering) "Danger, Danger" sirens in your mind, based on your past experiences ?

Potentially "hiding truth" links you, via your past experiences, to a position of vulnerability, hurt, pain and deep sorrow.

I think wanting to come out is commendable, and indicates you want to live openly and true to yourself. But I believe, in terms of hiding truth, it is actually a very different situation to that which abused wives (or husbands, or boyfriends or girlfriends) have in terms of hiding the abuse.

It's not only on a different page, it's in a different book in a different library. I would like to stress I think I understand where the parellels are coming from though.

The thing with FB is you can't really just talk to your mates. I have perhaps 60 friends on FB. How many would I choose to share intimate details of my life with ? Maybe 5.

It's not a medium that lends itself to you maintaining any control over your personal life. Do I trust the other 55 people with my personal journey in this world ?
No, I don't - They can look at my holidays snaps, but I won't share my personal philosophies or thoughts.
And I wouldn't want my ex husband knowing a single thing about my life. I don't like him, don't trust him. He's a scoundrel, in honesty. I'm fairly sure he would still hurt me if he could - he does take that opportunity if he sees it - can't say no to a bit of power...tedious really

I'd probably also explore FB settings to see if you can work out a way that your ex can't view your page through your son's account. Unless you're really concerned about your son and want to keep an eye on his FB activity...de-friend him.

Only two cents worth, hope I've not offended.
You sound fairly stressed about it all though - That's tough..

PS - I accidentally added a frown face and don't know how to get rid of it - Oops...

PPS - I'm not a fan of facebook other than for sharing general stuff. I don't mean to rant about it though.

LovingRadiance

03-28-2011, 11:37 PM

There is a way to lock out all sorts of details from people seeing-not only "ALL" people, but any single fb user as well.
I know-because I used it.

Furthermore-you could probably have one of your kids show you how to do precisely that-before anything is on there at all. :) Then you can play with the settings and get a feel for it before you make a decision.

I understand your "waffle".

I opted for being completely upfront and open on my facebook. The large majority of people I talk to on fb are my poly-peeps, so I didnt want to pretend to be something else. ;)

At the same time, my husbands' nieces and nephews and cousins, aunts/uncles etc are all on there-and I don't feel like it's right for me to be the "educator" of other people's children.....

Ultimately-I decided that if their parents weren't monitoring their internet use-that was their problem. I don't add them as friends-but beyond that, they have parents, I have my own kids to keep track of.

In your case-you have the battle of custody-that's a nasty place for alternative lifestyles to get drug into. :(

FlameKat

03-29-2011, 03:12 AM

Thanks guys -

Bella - I did not mean coming out as in making a large announcement and displaying it prominently, I simply meant that I would be open about it - i.e as in I read an interesting article that mentions or is about poly living I may want to link it (currently I do not)... and would expect to be able to make vague status updates that may lead into a discussion about it if people asked.. certainly not being 'in your face' or anything like that.

LR - yes absolutely - except I don't want to have to lock out various people from bits and pieces of my life, they either accept me or they don't... meh it's a question that can wait for a little it's not overwhelming at this point as I have decided to wait for a bit.. any openness with the kids will happen naturally and of its own accord... and that will progress as WW and I are able to be natural with it... (don't need the kids to show me :p I do work on facebook and regularly update them to new features :p)

It's more an issue of: at this point it is my choice to stay "in the closet" as it were... when I choose to be open I will be open to everyone... my memory difficulties contribute to my need for a 'blanket' openness... until I/we make that choice consciously, WW and I will work on where we are with everything and how we each feel with being open to everyone... for me it will likely still need to be a blanket thing, but we will see how that works as we progress.

FlameKat

03-31-2011, 04:03 PM

Soooo.....

WW has outed me to a work colleague/friend of his... he has been talking to this friend of his about the situation for a little while now, getting support and talking things through... but yesterday... he used the word 'poly'...

His friend essentially flew off the handle, said he had two friends that 'claimed' to be poly but it was all a cover for people who can't or who refuse to control themselves, who refuse to choose to love only one person, because anyone can be poly, but normal people choose not to hurt their partners... *paraphrasing from memory

Poor WW was left fumbling for a defense he is still trying to figure out and believe himself, and I am infuriated beyond belief that this person who barely knows me (been to his house once for a get together two years ago) would imply that I am choosing to hurt WW, simply because, in his opinion, I can't control myself, and simply because I choose to be honest about how I feel, simply because I cannot deny who I am as a person...

...At least I am NOT a lying, cheating, coward who goes behind my fiance's back... this path is rough and leaves us fucking raw to the bones... but is honest, and real and we aren't hiding from each other and pretending everything is ok... BECAUSE everything IS ok... and its ok because we are honest...

having said that... i am not enjoying the (beginning) trend of him losing friends because of me (not saying he's lost this one yet - but it doesn't look encouraging at this point)... and yeah I know, its not my responsibility how other people react - but if I hadn't found this out about me, we wouldn't be in this mess and we wouldn't be having all the pain and we wouldn't be facing the prospect of losing friends...

i'm just in a weak point where i want a fairy godmother to wave her magic wand and put WW and me in each others arms... at this point I would accept restrictions of an hour... this is so gruelling for us, and we are doing it with a 15? hour time difference... and no set date for when we are in the same place again...

sorry for the thought shifts... please do contribute - advice/thoughts/commiserations :p on this one would definitely be appreciated...

WaterWolf

03-31-2011, 04:56 PM

*Long Distance Hug*
We'll be alright baby and we will figure everything out the world throws at us.
Your WaterWolf
Forever & Always

Carma

04-01-2011, 04:23 AM

I'm sorry for you that someone reacted so negatively and judgementally. We haven't had much success with the family members we've been outed to, so I know the feeling. I don't like to be defensive and I feel really bad for Sundance (my husband) when he feels backed into a corner too. We're trying to keep things private for now. That is hard for me, because I like to love out loud, and I want to be as authentic as I possibly can. But until we are more rock solid in our poly lifestyle, ourselves, I think it is better to keep it to ourselves as much as we can for awhile. We are still easily shaken by the opinions of others, because this is so new to us. But it has really strengthened our bond, supporting each other in it, and educating ourselves as we journey on. And -- at least we have this forum, where we can always find the love and encouragement we need!

FlameKat

04-01-2011, 03:06 PM

Thanks Carma :D I've been reading your journey with interest ... everything we each experience in this process is so useful to everyone else :) at the very least so we know we aren't alone...

FlameKat

04-01-2011, 03:56 PM

Was just about to turn in for the night when I realised I hadn't shared something that is important to the whole acceptance process... during our very long talk today/yesterday... it came out that WW is in 'One Penis Policy' mode... he stated unequivocally that he would be okay with me having a relationship with a women because it would be blatantly obvious she was providing me with something he could not (blatant being - biologically speaking) and vice versa.

So he is not actually against polyamory itself... he has an OPP in his head/gut... now I know I said I may possibly be bi-curious - but again it would be with a very special woman who just clicked... and frankly I had my 'lesbian experience' in high school and wasn't overly captivated by it - still friends with her btw. The point being that I am essentially hetero with no urge to deviate from that, so the OPP is a problem.

Gonna leave the thought there (It's 2am here) and head to bed... any thoughts/advice welcome...

SNeacail

04-01-2011, 05:03 PM

What I have been noticing, even in myself, is that women tend to have more issues with emotional connections and men with the sexual connections. My suggestion: Take the whole sex issue off the table for now. It appears that you need to be free to establish the emotional connections, is the sex absolutely necessary (at least right now)?

Over the years (after I got married), I found that I would sensor myself based on how I was "supposed" to act and feel. If anyone got too close, I backed away. As soon as I realized someone might think I'm flirting, even a little bit, I would shut down. What would my husband think, what would their wife think, etc? So nothing got beyond a casual acquaintance stage and this hurt me my more than I realized. As soon as I allowed myself the freedom to just be myself and feel freely, it was like a huge burden had been lifted. This also translated into being able to freely allow my husband whatever emotional connection he needed or had, which I had been fighting for years.

I haven't even broached the issue of sex with others yet, but I'm no longer afraid to bring up issues like, "your spending too much time with her (or even an activity) and I'm feeling neglected", etc. WW needs to be comfortable in saying "TIME OUT! I'm just getting the tired, cranky FlameCat, while this other person is getting happy, giggly FlameCat". I don't think many of us are comfortable doing this without feeling like we are being insensitive or demanding.

FlameKat

04-03-2011, 09:05 AM

That’s the thing... the whole sex issue IS off the table for now... the problem for WW appears to be the real likelihood that it would come up. I am a physical touch person... being physically intimate with someone is the deepest level of how I can express myself to someone... and if I fell in love with someone he is absolutely right that I would very likely NEED that form of expression to be available to me, without it hurting him. Of course, any relationship would evolve naturally - but for me knowing that I was restricted in my ability to show my feelings it would taint any relationship... um

for example: my relationship with A - I have mentioned him before on this thread... from the descriptions of others on the forum he could be described as a non-sexual boyfriend... (not completely accurate but good enough for the purpose of this explanation) back when we first met, A was recovering from his divorce and I was just starting to realise the abuse I was suffering wasn't normal and that I didn't have to put up with it. We 'clicked' right away... but because of where we were in our lives at the time... got straight between each other exactly where we stood with each other and what those boundaries were. Because of that, we share the absolute deepest of friendships, love each other to the nth degree and can tell each other anything (he is the only friend I discuss poly with - despite him being a staunch mono and extremely possessive of everything in his life, he is supportive of me (at the same time that he thinks I am nuts :p)) without fear of worrying if the other will be offended or turn tail and run away... we both know the other will always be there :D (and just for timeline purposes I met A and was firm friends with him a couple of months or so prior to meeting WW)

WW is happy I have A in my life, and comfortable with our friendship... though he sometimes is concerned about the absolute trust I have in A.

To me if the boundaries had been put in place by someone other than myself and A... I would likely struggle against them, the fact of them being there would feel to me like the relationship was not being explored to its full potential because of someone outside that relationship, and to me that is anathema... and I would resent feeling inhibited in my expression, and I would be because I would be being very careful not to give off signals that could be misinterpreted, so as not to cause discomfort to the person I am trying to develop a friendship with, and also to not cause discomfort to WW.. this is just too complex for me... I tend to work on the policy of I am who I am and if you don't like what I say then bugger off... (noting I am not blunt or over the top, I just am not interested in pussy-footing around). It is more likely that with the restriction there – I would inhibit myself from forming friendships simply to avoid any complications and misunderstandings that may or may not develop. Or, I would be constantly second-guessing myself and my expressions/behaviour… none of which would be healthy.

Whereas, without the restriction I would feel free to develop friendships to their own natural depth, I would feel free to express myself naturally and would likely have within myself the natural resistance to developing those friendships further than WW would be comfortable with, simply due to my love and respect for him, and the level of discomfort I know he has regarding anything deeper. Any friendship that developed to the point I would want/need to cross those boundaries with… would have been developing with the full knowledge and active involvement of WW… at least that is how I would hope/expect things to be (I don’t expect to have completely separate friends from WW…)

I think a large part of his concern is that he might be thinking that if he decides to try to be okay with it, then I am going to want to try to contact T. I haven’t discussed that with him so it may not be a factor, but I think it is there.

Anyway, the point of this post was to say that sex is not on the table now or in the near future and I am pretty sure I stated that way back in October or November… that we are working through this now because it's needed as I am a touchy feely person and because I NEED to be able to express myself physically - whether that includes sex or not at the moment, at some point it is likely to become a factor, if there is someone else I fall in love with.