Suggestion for new section of the Forum

[nycindie]

Sent my husband a link to start researching poly and light BDSM.

This just reminded me... I've often thought that a separate forum here for "BDSM and Poly" would be a good idea. There are lots of people newly discovering both polyamory and this site who might find all the BDSM talk that gets intertwined here in poly topics a bit off-putting. It is a subset, I think, not an automatic part of being poly.

I don't wish to offend anyone into BDSM, but I personally find it frustrating when someone posts a question about poly relationships that looks interesting or like something I can relate to, from seeing the subject, and then I read it and it's about a Master/Slave dynamic or some BDSM flavor that I cannot wrap my head around nor contribute to. Not to say that my input is needed in every thread -- I don't mean to come off as that arrogant. And I know it's a personal prejudice of mine, possibly coming from IDing as a feminist, that makes me bristle when I read a woman calling someone Master, people talk about humiliating their partner, or capitalizing the words "He" and "Him" when referring to their mate, even though I know it's all consensual -- and so my bias is certainly something I am willing to look at, as well as learning more about BDSM. I'm fairly open-minded and yet admit to having my own inhibitions.

But I still think it could be a good idea to have a distinct area for BDSM, simply in order to make the General Discussion and New to Polyamory sections more appealing to a wider group of newbies. Plus I am sure there are plenty of experienced poly people not interested in any aspect of BDSM, who don't want to read about it, and plenty of people into BDSM who might appreciate a dedicated space for discussing it. Just a thought. Anyone else think this is a good idea?

[FlameKat]

thumbs up for this one... same reasons too

[River]

Yup, Same reasons too.

[Charlie]

Yep.

[Melnkof]

Have to agree.

[River]

I'm no longer a moderator or administrator here, so I'm not privy to any "official" talk regarding the above recommendation. It would be nice to know if the suggestion is being considered.

[Rarechild]

Does it really happen that often? Hmm, I know I see it, but have not felt as if the site was flooded with it. There's plenty of stuff I could care less about that I start reading and then stop because I can't relate/ don't give a rat's ass, what have you, so I just stop reading.

Also, would creating an index topic for BDSM on the boards attract more hits and more attention to our website as BDSM?

Consider it being considered, but consider that a minute.

[nycindie]

Well, there's a separate section for Spirituality, which I rarely visit myself, but I notice it only has 30 threads. However, I am sure the people who participate in that section are grateful to have a dedicated space for discussions of that type. I think people well-versed in BDSM might appreciate a dedicated area, too.

Yes, BDSM comes up a lot here, in waves sometimes, but a lot, I think. There are people who are in that lifestyle who come here looking for answers on making poly & BDSM work together and it seems that the info they need is very specific to the BDSM dynamic with which they engage. I have found myself contributing to threads like that, just replying on the basis of what I know about regular relationships -- and then other members who are familiar with or actively involved with BDSM contribute, but their responses are completely different from what I would expect, because they are usually addressing dominance and submission or humiliation dynamics, which are definitely not what someone in a "non-BDSM" partnership would need or want to hear. It's a little frustrating to think that I understand what someone is going through, only to learn that it's about a role they've taken on in a dynamic I know nothing about. I would think that with my experience in relationships and dating, and the numerous relationship workshops I've participated in since the 80s, I could contribute or relate to it -- but I can't because it's so specific.

Although I have come to be more accepting about it, I must admit that in the beginning of my coming here, all the BDSM talk here really turned me off and almost made me want to stop visiting. I absolutely hated reading a thread with the expectation that someone wanted to know about how to handle a relationship, and so on, to find out that it was all about "power exchanges" and some aspect of BDSM that the poster had going on, which completely made it impossible for me to understand or relate to. It's a different world, so to speak. And though there are some kinky things that appeal to me in the bedroom, BDSM does seem to require a certain accumulation of specific knowledge. Personally, I tried and will continue to learn more about it, but I doubt very much I will ever get into that kind of play or be able to offer any insight to anyone about that kind of relationship. I don't want a new section just for my satisfaction, though. I know there are other members not into BDSM at all, who may perhaps feel comfortable contributing if they knew BDSM was contained, so to speak, and they could investigate it when they wanted to read about it, rather than having it pop up all over the place.

Fortunately, I found so much here that is valuable, so I stayed. But I think there are people out there who want to learn about polyamory who may not be able to get past the BDSM talk that pops up so often in the General Discussion and New to Poly areas. For some people it's really kinky to have sex with the lights on, so imagine them investigating poly -- which would be a total turn-around in and of itself -- and seeing someone say they are "researching poly for their Master" (as an example) could be too far out there for them, and they might not come back here and get answers out there that could help them with polyamory.

I have seen other poly-focused boards with a section for BDSM. I just think it would make this site have broader appeal to new people. I'll be fine if a new section for it doesn't happen, but would like it to be given serious consideration. Thanks!

[MrFarFromRight]

I've got involved / contributed to a thread or two that I found interesting and which I later realised were about relationships based on BDSM. I wonder if the comments I made were seen by more clued-in members as being very naive.

Like nycindie, I'd say that it's a personal thing with me: that, considering myself (among other definitions) a feminist, I find it hard to imagine a master/slave dynamic as having much to do with love and mutual respect. I KNOW that everybody's got a perfect right to make their own life decisions... but I don't necessarily have to agree that those life decisions are emotionally / psychologically healthy. I once knew a guy who used to burn his arms with lit cigarettes. Sure he had a right to do that, but I doubt that he was very happy with himself.
I'm going to draw down scorn on my head for this, but I worry about people who NEED to dominate/humiliate others - or who NEED to be dominated/humiliated. And I'd be willing to repeat that sentence substituting "get their kicks when they" for "NEED to". (Even if it is "only a role game with strictly observed rules".) Sorry (not actually sorry:rolleyes:), but that's not my idea of love.

I would definitely be against setting up a BDSM ghetto on here. But a ghetto is where you're confined. If there was a BDSM section - as nycindie suggests - that doesn't prevent them from wandering over the rest of the site. It just means that topics with a heavy BDSM slant were where those interested could easily find them... and others who don't want to read those topics could stay away.

[Ariakas]

I will counter the request...

Not a fan of splitting it out. Most come here because their problems or challenges are poly. They have already likely been on a site like fetlife. While poly is accepted in the fetish community it has its own twists and turns. Most believe in the M/s dynamic strictly. I have found... most of the time, when fetish people are coming here its because they realize how complex the poly/bdsm dynamic is going to be, especially in a 24/7 life. They are almost... contradictory. But they can be intertwined. Not to mention a lot of poly people play with some and have sex with others. At what point is that poly and not bdsm. In BDSM where the rules are relatively simple... poly throws in a huge giant wrench.

This is an Example (I so don't want to be a master) - If I ever take a slave but my problem is overall related to poly. Lets say my slave doesn't like my wife. Where does the problem lie. BDSM or Poly? What happens if my slave wants to take a partner, but I want to "allow" that to happen but am having poly problems.

Other poly boards do have an area for kink and bdsm but thats usually to discuss the fun stuff like floggers and rope bondage. The relationship struggles of a bdsm/poly dynamic are still a poly thing... not a "how badly do I want to leave marks on your body" thing. At least on the 3 boards I have visited.

As for if its a bad vs good thing... well I will leave that to people who care more. Its like playing basketball except its a sexual fun instead of an athletic one. If you don't get it.. *shrugs* its really not my problem. I find it a pot calling kettle black kind of thing coming from poly people...

[nycindie]

I didn't say that BDSM is necessarily a bad thing. I did admit to some discomfort with certain aspects of BDSM that I have seen mentioned here, in the interest of full disclosure (although, as I have also said, some of it does appeal to me). I just can't relate to most of it, especially to people who live it 24/7, and I think that it is so unique in terms of the relationship aspect that it is difficult for non-BDSM people to help without some knowledge of it. Perhaps it is really the D/s part that seems to me to need special consideration, I don't know. So that's why I thought it would be nice for the people who get into it to have their own space here where they wouldn't have to explain what the concepts are and others would automatically understand. For those of you are are well-versed you might not realize that those "power exchange" dynamics make absolutely no sense to people outside of that world. It's not about pointing fingers or segregating anyone for me. I have seen posts from people asking what is that and why do you like it, instead of answering questions.

I find it a pot calling kettle black kind of thing coming from poly people...

But why, Ari? Do you equate polyamory with a fetish? I do not.


I just wonder... why a section for Spirituality and not BDSM?

[Ariakas]

I don't think BDSM is necessarily a bad thing. I just can't relate to most of it (although, as I have said some of it does appeal to me), and I think that it is so unique in terms of the relationship aspect, especially for people who are 24/7, that it is difficult for non-BDSM people to help without some knowledge of it. So that's why I thought it would be nice for the people who get into it to have their own space here where they wouldn't have to explain what the concepts are. It's not about pointing fingers or segregating anyone for me. I have seen posts from people asking what is that and why do you like it instead of answering questions.

:)... I understand that, but they are probably having poly problems. Not BDSM problems. Its a very confusing place to be in. They are stuck in between two worlds. One with some very strict rules and one the seemingly has none ;)

I understand it may be hard, but all you can do is impart your poly experience on people. I don't understand a lot of poly people but I can still impart what I know. There are poly factions the blow my mind (I am thinking the cultlike aspects of poly)... my experience may still help them in their relationships :)...


But why, Ari? Do you equate polyamory with a fetish? Many people do not.

Aspects of it definitely can be. Group sex? Group cuddles?... anything that would make a truly monogamous person cringe. And how many people use poly to fullfill their group sex desires with a cute tag of love on it. For the record I am not saying this is a bad thing. Just looking at it from people coming in.

Hell there are bdsm practitioners who look at poly as fetish... group sex as a different fetish. For example. There are some very strictly monogamous kinky couples.


I just wonder... why a section for Spirituality and not BDSM?

Religion is more separated than poly and bdsm. Same reason it should be left out of the school system. The idealology of being spiritual is a very different beast than loving more than one person, or getting your rocks off beating more than one person.

And honestly... how often do we see pagan magick lubbers coming in and asking their questions too. I can't fathom understanding many aspects of their lives, but I still try to answer their questions. They don't always end up in the spiritual section of the poly site. :)

[nycindie]

Group cuddles?

I do NOT consider group cuddles an aspect of poly at all! Mono people have participated in group cuddles and puppy piles since the 60s and 70s, myself included, it's just that some wanker decided to capitalize on the idea and sell it to poly peeps who bought it hook, line, and sinker and now think it's unique to poly. Gag!

... ahem, excuse the rant. :o

[Ariakas]

I do NOT consider group cuddles an aspect of poly at all! Mono people have participated in group cuddles and puppy piles since the 60s and 70s, myself included, it's just that some wanker decided to capitalize on the idea and sell it to poly peeps who bought it hook, line, and sinker and now think it's unique to poly. Gag!

... ahem, excuse the rant. :o

Its ok, it was more a sarcastic HA HA.. then anything... kind of like I caught a fish thissssssssss big... ;)

[nycindie]

:D


Well, hey, it's just an idea I had awhile back and I thought I'd throw it out there to see what others thought of it.

[Magdlyn]

Like nycindie, I'd say that it's a personal thing with me: that, considering myself (among other definitions) a feminist, I find it hard to imagine a master/slave dynamic as having much to do with love and mutual respect.

You're making the assumption that all Doms are male and all subs are female?

There are female Dommes with male slaves or subs, and gay males and ardent feminist lesbians of both proclivities, Dom or sub, for example. (Google "On Our Backs" magazine.)

I KNOW that everybody's got a perfect right to make their own life decisions... but I don't necessarily have to agree that those life decisions are emotionally / psychologically healthy. I once knew a guy who used to burn his arms with lit cigarettes. Sure he had a right to do that, but I doubt that he was very happy with himself.
I'm going to draw down scorn on my head for this, but I worry about people who NEED to dominate/humiliate others - or who NEED to be dominated/humiliated. And I'd be willing to repeat that sentence substituting "get their kicks when they" for "NEED to". (Even if it is "only a role game with strictly observed rules".) Sorry (not actually sorry:rolleyes:), but that's not my idea of love.

Well-considered D/s can be quite healthy for both parties. "Good" Masters/Mistresses are concerned foremost for the (physical and emotional) health of their sub, believe it or not.

I do understand the shock factor tho. Now, I am into several kinks on the BDSM spectrum, but 11 years ago when I read the Ethical Slut, I recall being shocked by a lesbian group sex/play party/fisting scene graphically described therein. I thought that bit had nothing to do with being polyamorous and almost put the book down at the time because of that.

[nycindie]

Hey Mags, I know you're a kinky gal, but you didn't mention your take on the idea of having a separate BDSM section here. I am less attached to it than I was when I first thought of it, but still think it could be very helpful. Do you?

[Magdlyn]

I think it's an interesting idea, Cindie. Let's face it, poly people are sex-positive. A strong interest in sex can often lead to great imagination and creativity in the sex area... which can lead to exploring kinks including power exchange, and other aspects of BDSM like impact play, etc.

Some of the most frequent posters here are into BDSM, while some newbies are ignorant and sort of scared of the subject, being turned off by the perceived anti-feminism and violence of BDSM play.

[MsWoodland]

I can see both sides to this. I'm not offended by bondage folks anymore than I'd be with cross-dressers or furries for that matter. It's all personal choice. As long as the talk is appropriate for the age group it's presented to. But at the same time, there are some folks who were harmed in a way, or raised to think a certain way that make it very difficult to understand why someone would want to do such things. It's always good to have a delicate topics section to keep such things in, that might offend others.

[NeonKaos]

The moderators discussed this and we agree that if there were BDSM or furries or what-have-you ASKING for a section of the forum where they could discuss their special issues as pertains to polyamory, that would be a stronger argument than creating a separate section to corral those types of threads just because some people are sick of seeing it come up in situations every so often.

However, we are long overdue for a conference with Olivier (the owner, who doesn't really participate in the discussion threads) and we plan to ask him if he would like to create a sub-forum (no pun intended) for any type of alternative lifestyle + poly, should people of like-mind choose to use that to mingle with each other. This is not something we are empowered to do without explicit permission from him.

Also, we do not expect this to happen before the forum software upgrade, which went into "testing" almost a year ago IIRC, and is supposed to have a section where people can be in more control over their own blogs.

[MsWoodland]

How about just setting up a fetish section for all such things?

[NeonKaos]

How about just setting up a fetish section for all such things?

Because there are already entire forums dedicated to different fetishes.

[MrFarFromRight]

Well, NeonKaos has pretty much answered the original question:The moderators discussed this and we agree that if there were BDSM or furries or what-have-you ASKING for a section of the forum where they could discuss their special issues as pertains to polyamory, that would be a stronger argument than creating a separate section to corral those types of threads just because some people are sick of seeing it come up in situations every so often.

However, we are long overdue for a conference with Olivier (the owner, who doesn't really participate in the discussion threads) and we plan to ask him if he would like to create a sub-forum (no pun intended) for any type of alternative lifestyle + poly, should people of like-mind choose to use that to mingle with each other. This is not something we are empowered to do without explicit permission from him.

Also, we do not expect this to happen before the forum software upgrade, which went into "testing" almost a year ago IIRC, and is supposed to have a section where people can be in more control over their own blogs.(i.e. It's an idea worth considering but the change can't be made yet, for reasons outside the moderators' control.)

It only remains for me to clarify my stand:

a) If I gave the idea that I'm "sick of seeing it come up in situations every so often", then I apologise. Different strokes for different folks. I may not understand, but I'm not sickened.

b) A problem I do have (and I may be pretty much an exceptional case here) is that because I'm new to this whole topic (as a topic), because I live very much back-water and don't get to Internet often, a LOT of the terminology is confusing (this means that I don't know the hell what people are talking about). Some of the terms have other meanings outside the poly and/or BDSM scene: unicorns, furries, power exchange, primary/secondary... and I've found myself (as I wrote in my first comment on this thread) naively commenting on BDSM relationships without knowing that that was what was being discussed - and perhaps coming across as a total berk.

c) To answer Magdlyn re: my statement, "considering myself (among other definitions) a feminist, I find it hard to imagine a master/slave dynamic as having much to do with love and mutual respect."You're making the assumption that all Doms are male and all subs are female?

There are female Dommes with male slaves or subs, and gay males and ardent feminist lesbians of both proclivities, Dom or sub, for example. (Google "On Our Backs" magazine.)I make no such assumption.

1) Please notice those parentheses: "(among other definitions)".

2) Having said that, I would point out that there are many different flavours of feminism, most of which can be divided into 2 main groups:
i) "Feminist" means we want women to be allowed to have the same rights as / act like / earn as much as / belong to the same clubs as / etc. etc.... men.
ii) "Feminist" means we aspire to a new kind of interpersonal relationships without inequalities and malaises rife in standard patriarchal society: powerful/powerless, master/servant, boss/worker, owner/owned, buyer/seller...
I belong to the 2nd group of feminist thinking. The group that would never demonstrate for women's rights in the military, because we'd like to demilitarise the World. The group that believes, for example, that - far from being a feminist icon - Margaret Thatcher (first woman Prime Minister of the UK) was about the most macho, anti-feminist PM in recent history.

3) If you want to play at soldiers / capitalist (Monopoly is a great favourite) / master-slave and it's only a pasttime, that's your business (though personally - and I know that I'm being an extremist and very subjective here - I wish we could find more positive ways of enjoying ourselves). But my gut feeling tells me that the games we play affect our everyday personalities. And I suspect that for some in the BDSM scene, it's more than just a game.

[Magdlyn]

ii) "Feminist" means we aspire to a new kind of interpersonal relationships without inequalities and malaises rife in standard patriarchal society: powerful/powerless, master/servant, boss/worker, owner/owned, buyer/seller...


Emotional healing thru an inequal power exchange is quite common. "Good" Masters are interested in their sub's healing and emotional growth. (I personally know several couples who have experienced this, and in fact in my own relationship w my gf, even tho I am not fully her Domme, I am more assertive and sometimes she does just ask me to make decisions for her. Also she has said she feels "safe" when bound by a trusted partner.) Take this article as a case in point. I found it by googling "emotional healing thru bdsm."

Is the BDSM Lifestyle a Healing Experience for Submissives or Dominants Recovering from Trauma?

http://www.associatedcontent.com/article/998304/is_the_bdsm_lifestyle_a_healing_experience.html?ca t=72

The best book I have read on this topic is Radical Ecstasy. (The authors wrote the poly classic, The Ethical Slut.)

Amazon review of Rad Ecstasy

If you're looking for a how-to book of tying up your partner, techniques for using tools, what parts of the body are safe to strike, etc., you'll have to look elsewhere in other books that cover these subjects. If, on the other hand, you want to know why on Earth would anybody want to do this in the first place, you've hit the jackpot in "Radical Ecstasy."

If you think BDSM is all about cruelty, Dossie and Janet will convince you otherwise. They are incredibly articulate about psychological processes that are nearly impossible to describe. Come along with players on their journeys to the darkest, scariest parts of their minds and watch them emerge cleansed, whole, free, and (most importantly of all) LOVED by their play partners. Their role-plays may well be more effective than hypnosis or years of therapy on a shrink's couch. The authors feel their words do not do the experiences justice, but truly they are too modest.

I had the good fortune to meet Dossie and Janet at a Polyamory convention, having already read their classic "The Ethical Slut" which is far-and-away the best and most practical book about the dynamics of Polyamory. They are cool ladies who would be mistaken for ordinary vanilla if you didn't know otherwise. "Radical Ecstasy" is every bit as revelatory as "The Ethical Slut," opening up a whole new world for me.

At one point in reading it, I collapsed in cathartic laughter that made tears stream down my face, when I suddenly realized that I had always been fascinated with bondage games, even as early as age 8. My obsession with "Perils of Pauline" scenes became a source of enormous ridicule from my schoolmates, so embarrasing I never dared breathe a word of it to anyone for more than 30 years. At long last, Dossie and Janet proved that there was nothing wrong with me after all! I was merely trying to act out a logical resolution to the school-bully problem. My first-ever night at a BDSM club saw me tied to a St. Andrew's Cross while wearing the most demure, innocent, Victorian-vintage lace dress imaginable. Eventually, I might finally get to act out a resistance/takedown/rescue scene where I get chased all over the dungeon . . .

THANK YOU, Dossie and Janet, for sharing your amazing love with the world.

[NeonKaos]

a) If I gave the idea that I'm "sick of seeing it come up in situations every so often", then I apologise. Different strokes for different folks. I may not understand, but I'm not sickened.

Alright alright GEEZUS -

How about "tired". Is that better than "sick"? "tired of seeing it come up in situations every so often". Ever heard of two little things called metaphor and hyperbole?

For crying out loud.... **I** apologize OK? for IMPLYING or ASSUMING :eek: that you or anyone else was "sickened".

No one can relax around here for a goddamned millisecond....

[Magdlyn]

Temper, temper! I think you need a spanking.;)

[MrFarFromRight]

Alright alright GEEZUS -

How about "tired". Is that better than "sick"? "tired of seeing it come up in situations every so often". Ever heard of two little things called metaphor and hyperbole?

For crying out loud.... **I** apologize OK? for IMPLYING or ASSUMING :eek: that you or anyone else was "sickened".

No one can relax around here for a goddamned millisecond....Hey! Keep your shirt on, OK?

I joked on another thread that I'm seriously considering changing my user name to ResidentPedant. Just a joke, but this is an international site and as a fluent speaker of several languages, I know how subtle nuances can get so easily misinterpreted - even by native speakers of the same language. have[/U] witnessed a lot of pain, and it'd be nice if those of us with more experience in polyamory - and in talking about our emotions - showed a bit more patience with people who are struggling with it.]

However, that's by-the-bye. I didn't attack you, I wanted to clarify myself (and was willing to apologise to anybody who'd misunderstood my first comment)... and I ended up not doing a very good job. Because I'm NOT sick or tired of "[I]seeing it come up in situations every so often". I personally haven't seen it all that often. I've only been contributing to this site since the 9th of February this year, and only a few days each week at that.

HOWEVER, nycindie made a suggestion that I felt deserved serious consideration and I threw in my tuppence [two cents] worth. I have been slightly affected by the situation, and I can imagine others (who've been on here longer) to have come across it more often. And if some people are bothered by the issue, I vote for the creation of the BDSM section.

[River]

Temper, temper! I think you need a spanking.;)

Can I be next in line for a spanking?:p

[Magdlyn]

Get over my lap! :cool:

[Tonberry]

I like that it's not segregated. I probably wouldn't go much in a specific BDSM forum, and I'd miss a bunch of things. I like hearing about different lifestyles and I don't think I should have to go look for them, I much prefer seeing them among the "regular" populace. Otherwise, it kind of gives a "you're freaks, stay away from us" vibe, I feel.

@ MrFarFromRight, I understand why you wouldn't like D/s if you're against any power and any one being hierarchically higher than anyone else, period. I mean, that basically means being against the concept of a president or prime minister, a boss in a company, a manager... I personally don't get it. It's wonderful having other people's input or help. If I'm someone's subordinate, I can just accomplish the needed tasks without having to figure out what tasks are needed. If I'm someone's manager, I can direct everyone to reach the needed goal and keeping my energy for other things that needs to be worked on so I don't have to do all the work.
They're all about cooperation. Just because one person is called the boss and the other the employee doesn't mean one is worth more than the other.

But BDSM is about more than D/s. You also have BD and SM. And these aren't necessarily about power. You could think that being blindfolded is about power, but it could be about not being able to see so you can focus on your other senses and have a more intense experience. As for pain, it leads to endorphines, so it's easy to understand how it's linked to pleasure, I feel. And the Sadist part of a SM pair could very well be the sub of a D/s pair.

I guess I really don't understand your objections to D/s. I mean, we all spend our lives hoping for others to make decisions for us. Decide what we're eating, decide what to buy... there are programs all over the net that you can have tell you to do your chores so you don't have to remember. Is it so hard to imagine someone could want the same things in a sexual context?

[MrFarFromRight]

@ MrFarFromRight, I understand why you wouldn't like D/s if you're against any power and any one being hierarchically higher than anyone else, period. I mean, that basically means being against the concept of a president or prime minister, a boss in a company, a manager... I personally don't get it.Exactly. What I didn't mention under "among other things" is that I'm an Anarchist. (This word seems to conjure up for most US citizens - those who have even heard of it - a guy dressed in black with a bomb hidden under his cloak. And then there are those [mainly young] people who call themselves Anarchists, believing that it means "Destroy the System: We're against everything! No rules! Everybody can go fuck themselves!") I don't believe in presidents or prime ministers. They tell pretty lies to get people's votes and then they take the country into wars that nobody wants. (GWBush and Tony Blair are today both being lucratively bankrolled by Big Oil - "Thanks for the huge profits, guys!") Etc. etc. etc. And on a work level, I'd much rather work in a cooperative than in a company with a boss or a manager.

I don't really want to take this debate too far. As I said before, different strokes for different folks. It's just that I feel that we've been indoctrinated into either wanting power over others or wanting to run from responsibility. [See Erich Fromm's "The Fear of Freedom"] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Fear_of_Freedom) And this is what real Anarchism is: the refusal to allow anyone power over you but at the same time the refusal to wield power over others. To take full responsibility for your own life.

It'll never catch on.

So in answer toEmotional healing thru an inequal power exchange is quite common. "Good" Masters are interested in their sub's healing and emotional growth.I'd say that healing is possible in all kinds of circumstances, but a hierarchical healer/"sick patient" situation often leads more to patching over symptoms than true healing. If a doctor tells me what to do, what medicine to take, instead of talking over my case with me so that we reach a better understanding, I have my doubts. (So I prefer going to holistic healers, "alternative" medicine.)

BTW, Magdlyn, I loved your:Temper, temper! I think you need a spanking.;)Had me laughing quite a while.

To get back to the healer/"sick patient" thing: there's a famous writer (highly recommended) called Alice Miller (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alice_Miller_(psychologist)). [By googling that, I've just discovered that she died last year. What a loss to Child Psychology!] She used to be a psychotherapist... until she realised that psychotherapy actually maintains the status quo: it keeps people from healing and spirals into codependency. So she resigned her membership in the Swiss and the International Associations for Psychotherapy.But BDSM is about more than D/s. You also have BD and SM. And these aren't necessarily about power. You could think that being blindfolded is about power, but it could be about not being able to see so you can focus on your other senses and have a more intense experience. I'm hardly an expert on BDSM terminology or techniques. But personally I would not consider being blindfolded to constitute bondage. I agree with you 100% about helping to focus on your other senses. I once went to The Tate Gallery (a famous London art museum) when they had an exhibition "Art For The Blind". Because touching, feeling the pieces of art was encouraged, everybody had to wash their hands at the entrance. [One patron insisted that he wouldn't be touching anything, so there was no need for him to wash his hands. When the curator insisted, the patron walked off in a huff.] Although the museum didn't suggest it, my friend and I wanted to get into the whole idea of "Art For The Blind" and took turns closing our eyes and being led to the next piece, feeling without seeing. If I'd had a blindfold, I certainly would have put it on.

This next bit might seem very far-fetched. But I remember that almost every time that my father spanked me, he told me: "Now I'm doing this because I love you." And then there's that Bible verse (Proverbs 13:24): Whoever spares the rod hates their children, but the one who loves their children is careful to discipline them. I honestly wonder how many people from religious homes came to equate love with pain.

Finally:I mean, we all spend our lives hoping for others to make decisions for us.I know that the vast majority are/were brought up to hope for this. And I'm no exception. But I'm trying to move as far away from that as possible.

[Tonberry]

Discussion on anarchy

Well, you seem consistent in your beliefs. For the record, I mostly dislike people in high place of political power, but I feel humans aren't able to work cooperatively on a big scale, and that these people are a necessary evil.
I also believe that right now my power is to vote for people I agree with. Baring a revolution, that's the most I can do. Therefore, not voting is leaving my destiny in the hands of other people even more. Just adding that in because I've heard of people not voting due to being anarchists. I don't know if you'd consider them "real" anarchists or not (or whether you do vote) but it seems to me if the point is to take power and responsibility, not voting is a bit paradoxical.

About cooperation, I agree with you, but to me, cooperation simply means taking turns in making decisions, which to me means taking turns as leader and follower. Decisions are made in common, but everyone takes turns between suggesting and considering suggestions. To me, there is still power exchanges, simply at a much faster pace.

If a doctor tells me what to do, what medicine to take, instead of talking over my case with me so that we reach a better understanding, I have my doubts. (So I prefer going to holistic healers, "alternative" medicine.)

I totally understand that. I feel a doctor's job is to give patients facts and options, but let the patient make choices. It's especially true for instance with gynecologists. Sadly, I have seen many who just prescribe a pill without going through all available birth control options (not even sharing a booklet or something). Or even going against a patient's will (for instance, not all of them agree to give you a copper IUD if you research things on your own). It annoys me. However, "modern" medicine still works best for me. I don't believe doctors are my superiors, simply people I go to for their knowledge on things not everybody can expect to spend a decade learning. Same thing with a lawyer, for instance.

I'm hardly an expert on BDSM terminology or techniques. But personally I would not consider being blindfolded to constitute bondage. I agree with you 100% about helping to focus on your other senses.

There is a broad range to BDSM. Blindfolding is usually considered to be on the lighter end of the scale. You're "bonded", even if it's your vision that is restrained, not your motion.
Other forms of bondage can come from the same basis, though. For instance, being tied so you can watch but not touch (the opposite of the blindfold). Feeling something because you touch it or because it touches you can create different sensations. Restrains+blindfold can help you focus on sound, etc.
Then it's a matter of scale, people probably all have a different comfort level. I believe though that a lot of people call BDSM what's "too much" for them, while they don't consider what's okay to be BDSM.

I mentioned it for BD (bondage and discipline), but it can be true for SM as well: a lot of people will enjoy light biting of their earlobes or nipples, or being scratched during sex, or grabbed tightly. All of these create small amounts of pain, but can be pleasurable. Some people find that more intensity in pain stop the pleasure, but for some others, the pleasure raises along with the pain.
And again, the examples I mentioned (biting, as light as it may be, scratches, even when they don't leave a mark, and tight grips) are all considered soft SM.

I honestly wonder how many people from religious homes came to equate love with pain.

I'm not from a religious household or even country, so I couldn't tell you. However it is true that some of very religious people are also very kinky, but the opposite is true as well (some very secular and liberal people are very kinky).
However, I believe the Judeo-Christian message isn't of associating love and pain, but more of turning hardships and punishments into good things to yearn for. It probably started as a way to make bearing them easier, but it did have the effect of making people pursue it, and pleasure to become something bad. I think that's a shame.

[LovingRadiance]

I happen to be involved in BDSM and I would find it helpful if there were a page dedicated to that. I enjoy being able to pop into the spiritual page when I'm looking for poly-spiritual info.

I like being able to pop into the blogs section when I'm looking for info on that.

I'd like being able to pop into the BDSM & Poly section (if it existed) when I was looking for info (or wanting to share info) that pertained to that.

It would make it easier for me to address topics that relate to both the poly and the BDSM topics in my life without feeling so socially awkward. I'm not prone to wanting to get too far into the BDSM discussion in the "general" section because I feel like it's a little "off-topic".
It DOES impact my polydynamic, but it's just a little "off".

Furthermore, it does get a little frustrating to ask a question aimed at other BDSM knowledgable and Poly knowledgable people and have the whole thread derailed into re-explaining what BDSM is.

If there were a BDSM section, I'd HAPPILY create a "dictionary" thread in it like I did in the poly stuff when I found a great "poly dictionary" and kept repeating the same answers all day to newbies....

[Magdlyn]

Furthermore, it does get a little frustrating to ask a question aimed at other BDSM knowledgable and Poly knowledgable people and have the whole thread derailed into re-explaining what BDSM is.




This.

Some people do get into poly just because they love their partner, but one is kinky and one is vanilla and the kinky person really needs that aspect. Right now, even tho we are kinky together, my gf needs *more,* so with my blessing, she has a Master as well.