Nice little trainwreck so far

[sohuman]

So being poly - for just a few weeks - has been incredibly time consuming and stressful because I go into things with good intentions (well, the intention to love and be honest about it) and then these situations I create come back to bite everyone involved.

I am female, married over 10 years to a wonderful guy (who is about to sign up for an identity here and read everything in the forums... he'll say he's my partner). I'm mostly straight but a bit bi-curious. The crack that let the light in was me having an intense emotional affair involving largely unrequited love and severe limerence a few months ago and being a mess (I told this dude I wanted to have a baby with him, wtf was I thinking?), thinking there must be something wrong with my marriage, thinking I must need to get a divorce - leanings of serial monogamy, trying to do the right thing, even though divorce would have been a horrible decision because my husband and I get along really well, have a great sex life, pretty good conflict resolution skills, and tons of positive affect... After realizing that divorce was one the stupidest ideas I've ever had, I realized that I have always been poly my whole life, that none of what I had done or felt had detracted from how I feel about my husband, in fact if anything it had all made me love him more.

I then came out to my husband as poly and my heart opened in a way almost similar to when I was first a mom. A couple days later I came clean about cheating for years. I refused to rationalize it anymore. He wants to stay with me but he doesn't want to let me do what I want to do which is be in a mfm romantic vee and have my husband feel free to pursue relationships, casual sex, or mff dalliances, help him fulfill his fantasies or control my jealousy if I'm not present (or am present). In short, find out who/what he is if not mono, but he's kind of obsessed with revenge or fairness and I keep telling him that no matter how many women he has sex with, he will still feel jealousy for me, but go ahead and see for yourself, I tell him. There is no "evening the score". I still feel like I have a right to set my own boundaries but there are very few things I feel really uncomfortable with as long as everyone is being respectful of each other and safe - a tall order in and of itself.

I hate hurting other people, but the way I pursue my emotional needs seems reckless. I am an NRE crackhead and it's not funny even though I joke about it. But to continue the metaphor, I feel like I'm hitting old ladies in the park and taking their purses, unwrapping the sweet sweet hard candy of NRE inside with delight while the actual human beings lay on the sidewalk suffering traumatic brain injury. I feel like the vampires in Interview with a Vampire - when I can't get humans to drain of thick heady NRE I'll desperately slay poodles and then feel bad about myself for being such a loser of a vampire, reduced to poodles.

I know what NRE is - it is when you have a few scraps of information about someone's good qualities while they're putting their best foot forward, and you enthusiastically fill in all the gaps with cupcakes and rainbows. I know not to make any decisions during NRE, I know for a fact that it changes nothing about how I feel about my cherished husband and our awesome ORE, and yet I am still vulnerable to NRE... vulnerable - hell I am seeking it out. I'm hunting it down and then squealing with ecstasy while it smites me and everyone around me. Then I get up, look around at what I've done, and tsk tsk tsk.

Recently we answered an ad for a couple to be friends with a couple and what do you think happened. I got all involved emotionally with the guy and it was super intense sexually, chatting, exchanging photos, videos, compliments, sweet nasty sex talk, even though we never met in person, and my husband was there every step of the way. Well it turns out that this guy and his wife are swingers and he said he developed feelings for me, and that's what I wanted him to do, I helped make it happen, actively. Well his wife was not happy about it but he said they'll be ok. My husband got on chat and apologized for the role he played in letting me make the emotional connection happen. The two of them had a really good discussion where my husband laid out his boundaries. I am leaving the swinger guy alone now so he and his wife can work it out but I miss him like crazy today and I didn't even know him, all I knew is that he is a good, sweet, and incredibly kind person (those are real attributes of him, it's just that I don't know what his flaws are). At least I am not contacting him to let him know how much I miss him and am thinking of him.

In brief, I am at this moment a ridiculous and terrifying poly creature of the darkness. It's lame to even talk about my pain when I've caused others so much, but I truly feel like parts of me have been lost in each of these relationships behind me now, even though I have healed and resolved my feelings beyond a shadow of doubt. I learned from each one, and it was all worth it, bla bla bla, personal growth, but right now I feel like it's not the greatest thing in the world to be a poly person. The wreckage and the damage... oh the humanity. My husband is kind of a saint for going through it all with me.

Sorry for the novel. Taking a breath and stepping back, it's really not as dramatic as all that, everyone's going to be fine, it's just kind of a pain in the ass to deal with it all and I hope it helps you to know my silly stories. If you made it through, good on ya. Thank you all for sharing your stories, this forum has helped us so much and will continue to.

[Catfish]

A most sincere congratulations to you, my dear. By the sound of things, you are discovering the realities of this delicious path and keeping your wits about you.

Know thyself? Check.
Know thy husband? Check.
Communicate? Check.
Communicate some more? Check.
Proceed with caution and empathy? Double check.

For people who survive trainwrecks, everyday is a blessing.

Compassion is essential medicine and it seems as though you have it in spades. Cultivate more and more. For yourself. For your husband. For everyone around you. It's the only way.

I look forward to virtually meeting your husband. I have a feeling he and I have a lot in common.

And thanks for sharing your story.

[sohuman]

Thank you Catfish, your words of encouragement came at just the right moment. My husband has been harboring major resentment and finally expressed all his pain to me last night, really expressed it. I am exhausted and we have both been crying nonstop. MAJOR progress though. He was asking me for the very thing you honed in on: more compassion.

Compassion is my goal but I am still making mistakes, committing acts lacking in compassion - he has agreed to let me know when I do that, or when the only thing lacking in compassion is the pace at which I am going. He has also agreed not to agree to things just to make me happy, because that will lead to resentment later. My knee-jerk initial reaction to his intense pain and anger was to agree to give him monogamy for as long as he wants it (I didn't say that, I was just listening and thinking), but then I realized that the order of things needs to be: 1) person 1 asks for what they want/need, 2) person 2 processes it and thinks about it wrt what they want/need/are capable of, and 3) more discussion and potential compromise. In agreeing at step 1, you might get awarded a shiny "what a generous person you are" lapel pin but that will come back to stick you in the form of resentment if you're truly not all right with/capable of giving or allowing the thing in question.

Fully internalizing compassion and then making behavior choices consistent with it is a process, and I think it requires layers of paint and bears more repetition and discussion than either of us expected...

It's like the gates of communication are finally open after years of using only sex, humor, and built-up positive affect to heal distance between us. Amazing how long those things worked, but +communication is more, better. Harder and more exhausting, but better.

Thanks again. I reckon he'll appear here shortly. :)

I love these two quotes from the 1975 film Love and Death:

Sonja: He kissed me.
Boris: Any place I should know about?
Sonja: He warmed the cockles of my heart.
Boris: That's just great. Nothing like hot cockles.


Sonja: To love is to suffer. To avoid suffering one must not love. But then one suffers from not loving. Therefore, to love is to suffer; not to love is to suffer; to suffer is to suffer. To be happy is to love. To be happy, then, is to suffer, but suffering makes one unhappy. Therefore, to be unhappy, one must love or love to suffer or suffer from too much happiness. I hope you're getting this down.

[Magdlyn]

I want to post more on this thread later but in the meantime I wish it said something about being addicted to NRE in the subject title, because I think that is so common in poly people. Actually addicted, or just totally swept away by it from time to time.

[sohuman]

Sorry - you're right, it wasn't a very informative title. I couldn't go in and edit it though because the 12 hours have passed - I will add some tags and put NRE in the tags.

[conchordian]

Hi! I am the husband of sohuman.
I have attitude (bad attitude even) just about everything so far. Anyway... I'm here, let's see where this goes.

[sohuman]

[edited to get rid of me flaming him back for his initial flame of the entire poly lifestyle]

Hi Baby, I'm glad you're here and I love you.

[redpepper]

Might I suggest doing a tag search on here for "foundations" and "lessons" there are some great threads that indicate ideas on how to approach poly in a healthy way. Compassion is important for sure, as is honest open communication, respect for others and your self, and compassions cousin if you will, consideration. All can be found in great details if you look around a bit.

If you intend to debate I suggest reading around a bit too. You have said in your post, before editing that you "have some major disagreements on key aspects of what "polyamory" really is. I will probably at some point criticize and debate every argument used to justify it as somehow more evolved, or healthier a lifestyle choice." ...Most off us have debated it all pretty much and while a good debate is awesome, I am not big on repeating myself when there are threads already that address the issues. Please feel free to add questions or comments where ever you see fit on the threads you find. Thanks. :)

I hear that this is all painful and difficult. Your whole worlds have been turned up side down it seems. I would suggest slowing down, taking a breath and keep commuinicating. You seem to be on the right track though... With some boundary negotiation and setting, things will settle with time and patience I should think.

[Catfish]

Hello Conchordian. Welcome to the forum. Let me start, as my good friend Charlie is fond of, by saying that at anytime I could be full of shit. That said, I'm sure you and I are facing some very similar challenges. If you need an ear, feel free to PM me.

This was me in '09. (http://www.polyamory.com/forum/showthread.php?t=544)

This was me last November. (http://www.polyamory.com/forum/showthread.php?t=4189)

This is me today. (http://www.polyamory.com/forum/showthread.php?t=5243)

This journey is a tough one, but just by virtue of the fact that you are here, your heart is in the right place. Best of luck to you.

[conchordian]

Catfish: Thank you! I'm glad to be here, and I will for sure read the links you sent me. I also love your friend's saying, and will start using it as soon as humanly possible.

[nycindie]

Hi! I am the husband of sohuman.
I have attitude (bad attitude even) just about everything so far. I am really argumentative, and have some major disagreements on key aspects of what "polyamory" really is. I will probably at some point criticize and debate every argument used to justify it as somehow more evolved, or healthier a lifestyle choice. Anyway... I'm here, let's see where this goes.

I doubt most people here would get all holier-than-thou and say that poly is more evolved or healthy than anything else. You both have to figure out what's healthy for you. You might hear that it's more challenging, though. Keep reading and asking questions. It's okay that you're angry, your feelings are your feelings.

Welcome!

[Hannahfluke]

redpepper:
You ruined my introduction. Are you really trying to stifle me before I've even done anything reprehensible? Or assuming I will for sure, at some point do something reprehensible? The assumption that I wouldn't read other debates or use the forum appropriately also does not make me feel all warm and fuzzy inside. Apologize immediately!

Are you serious about this? You come on here, saying that you disagree with everything that has anything to do with polyamory and then get offended that someone said that maybe you should read around a little before starting a debate? How is that in the least bit offensive? Really, coming on here and saying that you are planning on criticizing every point we use to "justify" our choices is much more offensive then a gentle suggestion to read around and see if your points have been covered before.

edited to add: the reason I put justify in quotes is that it reads very much, to me, that you feel that this is a bad lifestyle choice for anyone and that anything we say in support of it is just an excuse used to refuse to take responsibility for our own bad actions. While I would totally agree with the idea that not everyone who claims to practice polyamory does so in an open, ethical way, there are plenty of people who do, balancing our lives so that none of our loved ones get hurt. To say that all of us are wrong and "bad" for practicing it is extremely offensive, at the very least to me.

[Ariakas]

Hi! I am the husband of sohuman.
I have attitude (bad attitude even) just about everything so far. I am really argumentative, and have some major disagreements on key aspects of what "polyamory" really is. I will probably at some point criticize and debate every argument used to justify it as somehow more evolved, or healthier a lifestyle choice. Anyway... I'm here, let's see where this goes.

I have to admit, I love a lil debate. I am always curious to see how fresh eyes see the poly world ... I would suggest putting it into the lifestyles section, then the integrity of your posts/blog may be left to their own devices.

I think you will find there are those of us in poly who look at poly with critical eyes. There is a whole range of "polyness"...

So weclome

[nycindie]

. . . a gentle suggestion to read around and see if your points have been covered before.

A gentle suggestion? I know that RP didn't mean it this way, but it did come off somewhat like, "I'm tired of debating shit, so shut up and read!" And just because someone comes here and says they want to debate and challenge stuff (which happens every day here without necessarily announcing it first), no one is obligated to participate. Not every thread needs everyone's input. If you don't want a debate, don't post. I personally found Conchordian's post rather moving, since he was being honest with where he's at. I don't see how scolding him helps.

Sorry for the tangent. Now back to the topic...

[SNeacail]

A gentle suggestion? I know that RP didn't mean it this way, but it did come off somewhat like, "I'm tired of debating shit, so shut up and read!"

RP was just offering advice on where to look with specific tags to use when searching. There is a lot of info out there and she was trying to give him topic specific places to look. Conchordian is being extremely defensive and a bit antagonistic, but he did warn everyone this would be the case.

@Conchordian: RP creates some of the tags and is extremely knowledgable about where to find specific information. There are a lot of new people who come to this board and refuse to read what others have posted.

[redpepper]

redpepper:
You ruined my introduction. Are you really trying to stifle me before I've even done anything reprehensible? Or assuming I will for sure, at some point do something reprehensible? The assumption that I wouldn't read other debates or use the forum appropriately also does not make me feel all warm and fuzzy inside. Apologize immediately!I am in no way apologetic for my suggestion, the thought is rather confusing actually.

What do I need to apologize about? I was trying to help. We often have peope arrive on this door step who don't know to look around and read first. If you have already read or are, then great, you're ahead of the game and I would think have lots of comments and thoughts already.

I am wondering if you are angry? Frustrated? Ready to lash out on anyone that is poly because they are to blame? Is this so? If so, that's fine, I will seperate myself from that as it is not mine to own. Please, go ahead and tell us how you feel. It might mean you can move forward with th issues at hand.

[redpepper]

Just for the record NYCindie, I am tired. I get sick of listening to myself. No reflection on the writer. Just the cut and paste I say so often.

The "shut up and read" part? meh, not so much. I have no investment in people reading or not. If they repeat stuff over and over sometimes new stuff comes up and I give everything a similar tag to indicate where to find it. I do like a good debate though... As I said.

I reckon my "I" statement indicated an attitude that didn't exsist for me. Welllll, that happens. Text is different than reality.

This is all irrelevant though. This is about the OP and her man... Please, continue.

[redpepper]

I am in no way apologetic for my suggestion, the thought is rather confusing actually.

What do I need to apologize about? I was trying to help. We often have peope arrive on this door step who don't know to look around and read first. If you have already read or are, then great, you're ahead of the game and I would think have lots of comments and thoughts already.

I am wondering if you are angry? Frustrated? Ready to lash out on anyone that is poly because they are to blame? Is this so? If so, that's fine, I will seperate myself from that as it is not mine to own. Please, go ahead and tell us how you feel. It might mean you can move forward with th issues at hand.
Now I sound fucking condescending. Grrreeeeeeat. I assure you I am not intending to. This is not meant to be passive aggressive. I'm seriously wondering what is going on for you. So far we haven't heard much.

[sohuman]

Guys: I am so sorry. He was not being serious and redpepper you are absolutely right that his sarcasm had nothing to do with you and I didn't think your reply was condescending. He will probably be amazed that you didn't see it was completely sarcastic - but so many cues are absent to know that. Both he and I have had horrible experiences on unmoderated internet forums before - no joke, his consists of arguing about religion with other youtube users, and having people give him death threats. Mine consists of even more outrageous insanity (yes, more than death threats, I shit you not), but I can't even go into it. Suffice it to say that moderation makes a HUGE difference. This space is like no other. I am in awe of the care that the moderators put into making the forum a good space.

I started out the same way he did, by not opening up about myself and starting a debate about something I hadn't read about (converting non-polys to get dates) - but by reading and reading, and seeing how active the mods are, I realized this is a totally different group of people and space. I decided to do something I never thought or intended I would do, which was open up. At most I'd thought I'd lurk and learn.

It seemed like a good idea to have my husband make an identity here but the timing was off and he had not yet read anything on here. I told him not to be inflammatory, I told him to read the introduction instructions (which I hadn't before making my first post)... but he's really angry and hurt right now and that shows - we both use humor as a defense mechanism. He does have a negative perception of poly because of having such a hurtful introduction to it. I so wish I could go back in time and have known this about myself and been able to verbalize it years ago - or read book 1 about it. He may move the discussion elsewhere, because the ideas are quite new to him as he is processing them in the context of me being an unethical slut.

In this case I think it has derailed me getting some feedback/thoughts I might have gotten beyond Catfish's post. Anything people have to share or advise after reading our story laid out in sincerity (from only my perspective, of course) will be like gold to me. You can even criticize me, I am ready to hear it and process it.

I had a great advisor who said "you can always make a bad situation worse" - we seem to have a talent for that, but trying to change.

Thank you guys for being so accepting and THANK YOU moderators for what you are doing here. You are human, of course, but you are heroically taking on the complex task of helping others through your decision making and good judgment, and that care and effort is really valuable for the people here. Before finding this forum I was a "poor unfortunate soul".

I told him that when he is ready to open up, you guys are top drawer and will treat him with respect and kindness. He will see that the more he reads and probably open up eventually, if not today.

[redpepper]

Sohuman, I can understand the approach if this has been your experience. That sucks! Ya, we make every attempt to be helpful here, rather than inflametory. We are dealing with peoples heart felt, gut wrenching experiences and while sometimes its hard to talk about, its hoped that everyone does their best to empathize and remember our own journey. Not always possible as people get triggered. It happens and usually we are able to move on. Here's hoping that we get to some support for you both now! :D :p

[nycindie]

Okay, now I've been misunderstood, haha. Sometimes communicating online is tough, sorry I didn't express myself well. RP, I didn't mean to imply that you were saying that, sorry for sounding like that. I just thought I could see how someone might take it that way. But now it's been revealed that Conchordian was using sarcasm and I am the idiot here! Whoops! :o

Anyway, Sohuman, I think anyone here can identify with the confusion and not wanting to hurt someone. Many can also identify with your hubs' anger. I think you both would benefit from deconstructing the jealousy and looking at what's beneath it. I am sure more folks will weigh in, too.

[sohuman]

Honesty is sexy

Ah if only trainwrecks were anywhere near as sexy... :)

[conchordian]

I didn't mean to derail the thread. I can see what you meant about debate. People are ready to jump on just about anything that smells even remotely like one. (Y'all should be ashamed! Yeah, you know who you are...)

Either way... I deleted anything that was inflamatory, trying to clean up the thread. Probably too late, but there you have it, I'm trying my best.

My initial introduction was just meant to warn people that I might lash out. My problem with polyamory is not a problem with polyamory per se, but a problem with my wife using it as an excuse for her lack of control over the past few years (6 to be exact, but who's counting, it's not a contest). I really think she's mistaken if she thinks you "are" poly the same way you "are" gay (In fact I resent the idea that there's anything magical about this "ability" she has to "love" more than one person (more on that later)). I think she's a hypocrit for trying to use this bullshit to justify her lack of control and willingness to give up on the commitment we made simply because she wanted to go fuck other people (and did).

It is not a "special, magical ability to love more than one person" that made her cheat and lie, all the while refusing me the same freedom (of having extra marital encounters/relationships). It is her immature need for external validation, and seemingly uncontrollable craving for NRE. So correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think that's what makes someone "polyamorous".

So yes, there's anger, resentment, extreme intolerance for bullshit, accompanied by hope that she can REALLY be honest instead of insulting me by pussyfooting around the truth. I've never been very tolerant of BS to start with, but the woman has a much higher than average IQ, she knows better. It is insulting to me that she thinks she's going to pull one over on me by using half baked cop-out arguments to justify her past shortcomings, or to try to get what she wants in the future.

I think we're ready, and about to make progress, but I can see how that conversation is going to be really laborious, and tinged with more empty arguments. I'm ready for it though.

[FlameKat]

Just a quick thought for now Choncordian - when using sarcasm/humor it can help to use the smilies to the right of the text typing box... or to simply "put in quotes" or other punctuation marks ~sarcasm~ :p for us poor fools out here on trigger points :D

Just something i Have found very very helpful myself... I will add to the conversation itself later...

[sohuman]

(In fact I resent the idea that there's anything magical about this "ability" she has to "love" more than one person (more on that later)).

I don't believe that it is a magical ability, I think it's everyone who has the ability, but poly people take the perspective that actually pursuing and exploring other connections does not necessarily mean there is something wrong with an existing relationship.

...using half baked cop-out arguments to justify her past shortcomings, or to try to get what she wants in the future.


BS-ing is what I have only very recently stopped doing. It has only been a few weeks that I haven't sought to rationalize past or current bad behavior.

Part of my seeking NRE comes from a good place, from a belief that romance (both new and old) and sex with emotional connection can be happy, even divinely fulfilling experiences that our bodies, minds, and very souls are designed to enjoy. The dark side of my seeking NRE is a significant insecurity about my worth, and desire for constant enthusiastic validation. I have consistently chosen to have affairs with men who were far less empirically attractive than me or quite overweight or older, who I was not attracted to physically at all, in order to create a dynamic where they are in constant disbelief and drooling babbling admiration of me clothed or not. Blown-away verbal confirmation of my physical attractiveness equaled worth as an individual in my mind. Sometimes you just don't get that intensity from someone who's just as attractive as you are.... Looking at and understanding this dynamic as it relates to my marriage is a recent thing for me too. I liked the part of Ethical Slut where they're talking about the fact that people don't actually love each other for their perfect tits or whatever, anything pleasing is a happy icing on the cake & what they love you for is who you are.

Knowing myself a little better - specifically that I will need to create an emotional connection with anyone I am sexually involved with - would have helped me with that swinger situation. However, I looked back at my first message to them and I stated all of that, seriously, it is all laid out in one paragraph of my message... either he skimmed it or did not read it at all, and I don't think she ever read it. Also their original ad didn't say what they were within nonmonogamy. There were mistakes on their end that could have happened even if my husband and I had been poly from the start. Not all of our difficulties encountered with others in these early few weeks of honesty are 100% to do with us, but I see the value in holding off a bit.

I have two quotes from Flight of the Conchords that are relevant (fyi both my husband and I openly identify as bi-conchordians in that we like Bret and Jemaine equally):

Jemaine: I can see why you broke up with her. She was hard work.
Bret: Oh no, she broke up with me.
Jemaine: Yeah, she broke up with me too. That's what I mean, it was hard work staying together with her wanting to break up all the time.


Jemaine: It's just that I think she might be the one.
Bret: Sally?
Jemaine: Yeah.
Bret: What makes you think that?
Jemaine: You just know. When it happens to you, you'll know.
Bret: You said Michelle was the one.
Jemaine: Yeah, she's the one.
Bret: You said Claire was the one.
Jemaine: Yeah, she's another one.
Bret: So you get more than one one?
Jemaine: Some people are lucky. I've had a few ones.
Bret: So how many ones can you have?
Jemaine: Five.
Bret: How many have you had?
Jemaine: Three. How many have you had?
Bret: Just one. Just one.

[nycindie]

When a relationship is in trouble (cheating and lying being an obvious symptom of that), the answer is not to "add people." Pursuing polyamory won't fix the hurt and disillusionment caused by betrayal and dishonesty. You two probably need to work on your marriage, get into therapy, and maybe even consider not being together, before you try to wave the flag of being polyamorous as a reason for having multiple lovers. Sohuman, yes, look at building your self-esteem, not using low self-esteem as an excuse for reckless behavior, while you also take responsibility for what you did.

BTW, polyamory isn't really a lifestyle. All sorts of people in all sorts of lifestyles can be polyamorous.

[MonoVCPHG]

I have two quotes from Flight of the Conchords that are relevant [/B]

Nice !

[sohuman]

When a relationship is in trouble (cheating and lying being an obvious symptom of that), the answer is not to "add people." Pursuing polyamory won't fix the hurt and disillusionment caused by betrayal and dishonesty. You two probably need to work on your marriage, get into therapy, and maybe even consider not being together, before you try to wave the flag of being polyamorous as a reason for having multiple lovers. Sohuman, yes, look at building your self-esteem, not using low self-esteem as an excuse for reckless behavior, while you also take responsibility for what you did.

BTW, polyamory isn't really a lifestyle. All sorts of people in all sorts of lifestyles can be polyamorous.

Yep - but we are having some really productive conversations on our own now; if we reach a point where we aren't communicating as well we will find a poly-friendly professional.

We are both really good for each other and are not going to consider not being together, it would disrupt our progress and our toddler's living situation unnecessarily. We help alleviate each other's stress by cooperating on taking care of things, and by always taking care of each other and our child when any of us gets sick - which is all the time because her daycare is a germ incubation center. Also I want our child to see us expressing our regard for each other through affection, laughter, and calm respectful communication about issues that we are actively working through together, important ones, not just who left the seat up. We save the conversations that are likely to be less calm for after her bedtime so as not to scare her. I have already taught her to say what she is feeling when she is feeling it, and told her that she is capable, to a point, of choosing how she reacts to her emotions - especially anger and frustration. She has a book called "When I Feel Angry" that teaches about the dangers of hurting others in reaction to your anger and that you have a choice. Lastly, there is a surprising amount of boundary negotiation experience to be gained with a toddler, and maybe in helping each other with that we will get skills to do it with each other.

Point taken on the low self-esteem. Also I don't mean to try to speak for all poly people when I talk about my own beliefs about it.

You don't think he should pursue anything now, even if I'm ok with it? Will his resentment and anger toward me lead him to treat me or others badly? Cause I could see that, actually...

[redpepper]

I don't think anyone should be pursuing anyone right now personally. It sounds like you have a whole whack of stuff to sort out. Your desire to fuck men you aren't attracted to would be a start... You seem to know why, so why not find better ways to gain self esteem and self worth rather than turning your family life upside down. Do you not owe that to your commitment and to your baby girl, who will eventually follow your lead in how to relate to men?

I get where you are coming from with the kind of poly you have been having. I too have been known to do stuff to raise my self worth in an unhealthy manner. Only to find it was more depleted. To me that wasn't poly because self love is the first thing to me in poly. Be your own primary... not look to others for that...

It doesn't take long on this forum to find threads where I have struggled with casual sex since then. Do a tag search on the topic and you will see in about two seconds my fight with it... I damaged myself by believing that the sex was just fun and meaningless when really I subconsciously took it very seriously. My body took it seriously. You can see in photos from now and then the difference in my confidence and self love... my over all happiness has completely changed.

It was Mono that brought this change about when we first met (my now live in boyfriend). I did the work, and continue to, but he pointed something out to me in myself that I had not known for a long time. This was something that PN (husband) was not aware of and had not noticed or was not telling me... that is that I am worth more to others when I am me first and not a body to fuck.

I gave myself away to men that did not respect me. They used my body as a place to stick their cock and didn't even know the beauty I am inside as a person... they got off and took a bit of my soul every time... until I gave myself away freely and didn't really care that much as long as I got attention and felt falsely beautiful until they orgasmed.

I saw a documentary a couple of weeks ago of a brothel in Nevada. In it the house Madame said at one point that when the girls give a piece of there soul away every time they are with a John they need time to get that back. It's important to know that you give yourself away and that you have to concentrate on getting that back... this is what I feel I have done.

Don't get me wrong, people can and do have sex without all this that I talk about. They are able to be pleased with the experience for themselves and don't do it for self worth. They do it for pleasure...

I take my relationships very slowly now and have sex for the right reasons... When there becomes an obvious reason that it will not work FOR ME in healing my soul, expanding my love for myself and therefore others, I just don't do it. If you read my blog you will see some of this journey. I have found men and women that LOVE me... really LOVE me,,, not just want to get off. I am very fortunate, for sure, but I have worked my ass off to get here. It is possible.

It sounds like your man loves you... he is asking that you stop and look at yourself and your life. Your life with him and in your family... I think you would be wise to do that... Maybe you don't think that you need relationship therapy, but I do think you could use some of your own therapy... to get to the bottom of this trend you seem to be having. it has been going on for a long time... that path is possibly deeply routed by now and a new one needs forging. That could mean some help will be needed.

I wouldn't suggest either of you go out and date/fuck other people for a good while until you both have sorted some stuff out. I would wonder what conchordian hopes to gain by going out and finding women... to get even? To show you what it feels like? To find some comfort from someone else? To prove his manliness? I don't know, but it sounds like he is willing to hold off moving forward in that department until things are better balanced and some deep issues addressed and sorted out... After all that, maybe look at negotiating boundaries and think about trying again... who knows, you might find a lack of interest by then.

Last thing, I had a toddler once. Actually I went through the same shit you are now when my boy was a toddler. It is partly hormonal and a life stage for some women. You are not alone in this. There are others that feel that they have had a kid at their tit (if you breast fed... for me it was 3 years!) for way too long and all anyone sees them as is a mum... no independence or time to be free to come and go like it once was. That really widdles away on self worth. Keeping that in mind and making some plans for your future might help focus you in a different direction so that you can find other ways to gain self worth in your body and mind. Worth a shot I think.

This seems to have gone on longer, so I don't know if this is valid. I would wonder what happened 6 years ago that started this path. Might be worth looking at too.

@conchordian- Note on sarcasm. It really doesn't work in text very well I find. Unless you know people really well that is... (tested and found to be true...the hard way). As you are all new here, perhaps waiting a bit and using other threads like the "how are you" thread in the fireplace forum, to be sarcastic on, might help us get to know you better in this way... right now it just comes off that you are an asshole and something tells me you aren't. thanks :)

[nycindie]

You don't think he should pursue anything now, even if I'm ok with it?

Interesting how you left yourself out of the comment I made. No, no, no, you funny girl. ;) I meant that neither of you should be pursuing anyone else until you fix the broken relationship you have -- unless, of course, you're just addicted to drama and would get a thrill out of bringing a world of hurt down on you both. Your title is accurate -- it would be a train wreck.

Here's a few questions to ask yourself:

Do you honestly think that the smart thing to do is run around and find couples and people to fuck and suck (and possibly fall in love with) while your marriage is broken, with your husband hurt and angry at your betrayal?

Do you think that confessing should just be enough? You've got a lot of work to do to fix the damage left over from lies and cheating.

Do you honestly think your husband's just got to get over it while you go and do whatever you want?

Why do you care more about some swinger who's lusting after you while your husband needs you? While you need to focus on looking inward? You make it all seem kind of amusing, but you're living in a fantasy world.

Marriage is work, relationship are work, and if you don't have a strong, stable foundation in a mutually respectful and loving marriage where you make taking care of each other your first priority, how do you think it's even possible for either of you to start moving outside of the marriage to have multiple relationships?

Where is the respect, not only for your husband and child, but for yourself?

Sure, you might think you can just admit what you did, talk a lot about it, "oh yes, I've done all that personal growth stuff already, la-dee-da," announce that you're now poly and come up with some hypothetical "boundaries" because you've read that that's what poly people do, and then go have lots of extramarital sex -- but what is that all about, really? You've said you want poly, and not swinging. From what you've posted here, you don't really seem ready for everything that poly demands for it to work to everyone's benefit, at least it doesn't seem that way to me. And I'm someone who is fine with casual sex, but I don't see how it will benefit you or your marriage right now.

All of the above said with "tough love," compassion, and the kind of cranky wagging of my finger at you that a 50-year old woman can get away with. :) People lie and cheat all the time. It doesn't make you a bad person, but it means you've got a lot of self-examining and repairing to do.

You want self-esteem, do esteemable things.

[sohuman]

x

[Catfish]

Interesting how you left yourself out of the comment I made. No, no, no, you funny girl. ;) I meant that neither of you should be pursuing anyone else until you fix the broken relationship you have -- unless, of course, you're just addicted to drama and would get a thrill out of bringing a world of hurt down on you both. Your title is accurate -- it would be a train wreck.

Here's a few questions to ask yourself:

Do you honestly think that the smart thing to do is run around and find couples and people to fuck and suck (and possibly fall in love with) while your marriage is broken, with your husband hurt and angry at your betrayal?

Do you think that confessing should just be enough? You've got a lot of work to do to fix the damage left over from lies and cheating.

Do you honestly think your husband's just got to get over it while you go and do whatever you want?

Why do you care more about some swinger who's lusting after you while your husband needs you? While you need to focus on looking inward? You make it all seem kind of amusing, but you're living in a fantasy world.

Marriage is work, relationship are work, and if you don't have a strong, stable foundation in a mutually respectful and loving marriage where you make taking care of each other your first priority, how do you think it's even possible for either of you to start moving outside of the marriage to have multiple relationships?

Where is the respect, not only for your husband and child, but for yourself?

Sure, you might think you can just admit what you did, talk a lot about it, "oh yes, I've done all that personal growth stuff already, la-dee-da," announce that you're now poly and come up with some hypothetical "boundaries" because you've read that that's what poly people do, and then go have lots of extramarital sex -- but what is that all about, really? You've said you want poly, and not swinging. From what you've posted here, you don't really seem ready all that poly demands for it to work to everyone's benefit, at least it doesn't seem that way to me. And I'm someone who is fine with casual sex, but I don't see how it will benefit you or your marriage right now.

All of the above said with "tough love," compassion, and the kind of cranky wagging of my finger at you that a 50-year old woman can get away with. :) People lie and cheat all the time. It doesn't make you a bad person, but it means you've got a lot of self-examining and repairing to do.

You want self-esteem, do esteemable things.

I just thought this should be in this thread twice.

[LovingRadiance]

I don't think anyone should be pursuing anyone right now personally.

Interesting how you left yourself out of the comment I made. No, no, no, you funny girl. ;) I meant that neither of you should be pursuing anyone else until you fix the broken relationship you have -- unless, of course, you're just addicted to drama and would get a thrill out of bringing a world of hurt down on you both. Your title is accurate -- it would be a train wreck.


These two thoughts are critical.

I'm poly.
I cheated.
I'm still married to my husband.
I'm still dating the man who I cheated with.

BUT-I've had to run myself through hell and back looking into myself and finding the parts of me that are fucked up-and then forcing myself to fix them.
I've had to run through hell to prove that I'm worthy of being trusted, I had to EARN that trust, trust I still don't have in full.

I haven't lied (about anything) to Maca since September 2009. I've been upfront and honest even when it took me to tears from the terror. I've accepted his anger, his distrust, his lack of faith for my failure to be honest before-every time he's dished it out. Even though it hurts like hell.

If you want to recreate your life-you need to focus on what it is that you need to correct about and in yourself. Not focus on anyone else-including your husband. This is about you.

to husband-if you want to recreate your life-you need to focus on what it is that you need to correct about and in yourself. Not focus on anyone else-including your wife. This is about you.

It's impossible to get it all back on track if you are busy listing the ways the other person is wrong. The only way to fix a trainwreck, is to get yourself OUT OF THE WRECKAGE. That means focusing on how YOU got yourself into it-not focusing on how the train got into you.

[sohuman]

X

[nycindie]

Sohuman, my list of questions were not based on Conchordian's posts, but on your original post where you wrote that you cheated and then described some drama that was going down with some swingers. I was responding to YOU, and everything you wrote in your posts, not to Conchordian. I re-read YOUR posts several times, and wrote back to YOU. If I were responding to him, I would have addressed it to him. I said in my post that what you did does NOT mean you're a bad person (didja skip over that part, too?), and I wasn't trying to put you down or "in your place." I have no interest in that. Believe it or not I was trying to be helpful. And at least one other person thought what I said could be valuable to you.

As for how my questions were worded, I think this is a situation where the words written on a message board sounds different and comes across a certain way, when the person who wrote it (me) didn't mean it to sound the way you took it. Picture those questions read to you as if a grandmother was reading a bedtime story to a toddler. That was the tone I wrote them in. In my head I was saying, "Do you honestly believe..." very gently as if I was speaking to my sister who was crying. Honestly. Sorry I wasn't as clear as I could have been, though I did say I was offering my opinion in a "tough love" sort of way. I don't take back any of it, though, and they weren't rhetorical questions AT ALL. I was genuinely asking those questions FOR REAL.

It does no good to get defensive, when you come to a forum and ask how to handle things you've mangled. People are gonna tell you straight. You make a mess, you gotta clean it up. I'm not on a high horse, I'm someone who has mangled some shit in my life miserably, and I know about esteem issues and fucking around. I am not judging, just telling you what I see, from what you wrote. I never said anything about your wanting to be found attractive, that I understand. There are lots of other things you wrote about which indicate self-esteem is an issue. And I never told you you should split up, but I did say that considering being apart could be part of your work on your marriage: "You two probably need to work on your marriage, get into therapy, and maybe even consider not being together, before you try to wave the flag of being polyamorous as a reason for having multiple lovers." Read what was written. I never suggested breaking up permanently - how could I tell someone they should do that?! That's ridiculoous. Considering something is different from doing it. You interpreted almost everything I wrote incorrectly.

Now we have a bigger picture about you and your hubs, and it's very obvious the two of you both have lots of work to do (though it was already obvious before), but everyone's been saying all along neither of you are in a place to "go poly." Especially if you're both so hurtful, mean, disrespectful, and vindictive to each other. What are you teaching your child by relating to each other the ways that you do? I wonder why you don't think therapy is needed. It would be a lot more productive in a professional's office than duking it out here where no one really knows you and we only get slivers of info at a time.

[sohuman]

it's very obvious the two of you both have lots of work to do (though it was already obvious before), but everyone's been saying all along neither of you are in a place to "go poly." Especially if you're both so hurtful, mean, disrespectful, and vindictive to each other. What are you teaching your child by relating to each other the ways that you do? I wonder why you don't think therapy is needed. It would be a lot more productive in a professional's office than duking it out here where no one really knows you and we only get slivers of info at a time.

So you really cannot stop doing that, can you? I wrote exactly what we are teaching our child. Just keep talking about her, and what we're ready for or not ready for, and how awful we are, and our broken marriage, since you know so much. Seriously, whatever floats your boat. Can I give you our home address so you can call CPS?

It SUCKS to be on the receiving end of your unrelenting condescension. I truly regret trying to join this community and would delete everything if I could.

[nycindie]

So you really cannot stop doing that, can you? I wrote exactly what we are teaching our child. Just keep talking about her, and what we're ready for or not ready for, and how awful we are, and our broken marriage, since you know so much. Seriously, whatever floats your boat. Can I give you our home address so you can call CPS?

You are not awful. You are in pain. You are reading stuff into what I wrote that isn't there. No attacks coming from me, nor condescension, really -- just direct communication. If only you knew the struggles I have gone through with my self-esteem, you would know I am not being condescending toward you. But I'll stop posting since you're taking everything I write in the wrong way. Sorry about that! I wish you all the best in your journeys and hope everything all works out for you both to be happy, healed, and satisfied, whatever you decide to do.

[sohuman]

You are not awful. You are in pain. You are reading stuff into what I wrote that isn't there.

Take care, y'all.

[MrFarFromRight]

I didn't mean to derail the thread. I can see what you meant about debate. People are ready to jump on just about anything that smells even remotely like one. (Y'all should be ashamed! Yeah, you know who you are...)

Either way... I deleted anything that was inflamatory, trying to clean up the thread. Probably too late, but there you have it, I'm trying my best.

My initial introduction was just meant to warn people that I might lash out. My problem with polyamory is not a problem with polyamory per se, but a problem with my wife using it as an excuse for her lack of control over the past few years (6 to be exact, but who's counting, it's not a contest). I really think she's mistaken if she thinks you "are" poly the same way you "are" gay (In fact I resent the idea that there's anything magical about this "ability" she has to "love" more than one person (more on that later)). I think she's a hypocrit for trying to use this bullshit to justify her lack of control and willingness to give up on the commitment we made simply because she wanted to go fuck other people (and did).

It is not a "special, magical ability to love more than one person" that made her cheat and lie, all the while refusing me the same freedom (of having extra marital encounters/relationships). It is her immature need for external validation, and seemingly uncontrollable craving for NRE. So correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think that's what makes someone "polyamorous".

So yes, there's anger, resentment, extreme intolerance for bullshit, accompanied by hope that she can REALLY be honest instead of insulting me by pussyfooting around the truth. I've never been very tolerant of BS to start with, but the woman has a much higher than average IQ, she knows better. It is insulting to me that she thinks she's going to pull one over on me by using half baked cop-out arguments to justify her past shortcomings, or to try to get what she wants in the future.

I think we're ready, and about to make progress, but I can see how that conversation is going to be really laborious, and tinged with more empty arguments. I'm ready for it though.I'm using a quote from conchordian to jump into this thread, but I have points to make to each. I would like you both to know that I'm not a know-it-all arsehole: I'm a trying-to-figure-it-all-out arsehole:rolleyes::p. I want to throw into the ring some considerations that many of us are struggling with.

@ conchordian 1st, thanks for joining in! I think it's brave of you - someone who's going through so much pain and the (imagined or not) victim of deception and hypocrisy - not to shut your eyes and stick your fingers in your ears while chanting "I can't hear you!"

2nd, as a big fan of sarcasm who often finds that sarcasm misunderstood - especially on-line, where I can't use body language - I heartily back up someone's earlier advice to use the sarcasm smiley at the right of the page when you're typing a post. It's a shame when a friendly (even timid) attempt to make a joke and break the ice with strangers is understood as a personal attack and things escalate. And they have on this thread.

3rd, Love Hurts - or rather we often hurt ourselves when trying to deal with the complexities of love.

4th - and this is presumptuous of me, since you know her much better and I've just read this thread - but I dont get the impression that sohuman's "a hypocrit for trying to use this bullshit to justify her lack of control and willingness to give up on the commitment we made". It seems to me that she's willing to admit that she cheated / was a hypocrite in the past, but has come out to you precisely because she wanted to stop cheating. You talk about the last 6 years +/-. People grow. Give her credit for wanting to be honest with you now... and wanting to have an honest relationship. Keep the "hope that she can REALLY be honest instead of insulting me by pussyfooting around the truth", and give her the benefit of the doubt: that she's trying!

5th, you love her the way she is. Admit that. You might not agree with or love ALL her aspects, but the whole crazy pile is someone that you love. I once wrote a poem (dedicated to my then-girlfriend - who fell in love with me, but then immediately wanted to change me) with the opening lines (and this is the genesis of my user name): "If you're looking for Mr. Perfect / What the hell are you doing with me???"

6th, it's been at least 20 - maybe 30 - years since I read this book, so I'm bound to misquote it, but it left a deep impression on me, and the gist is:
A husband thanks a psychiatrist for curing his wife of her depressions. [I think that the present-day diagnosis would be bipolar: very high highs, very low lows.] The psychiatrist - also a long-term family friend - responds:
"Your wife was like a pool of water connected by an underground tunnel to the ocean. The mighty ocean's ebbs and tides affected her. What I have done is to block that tunnel, so now she is a shallow pool, calm but shallow.
"Some success story! Some cure!"from "God Bless You, Mr. Rosewater" by Kurt Vonnegut, Jr.Would you like to "cure" your wife of her polyamory?

@ sohuman: PLEASE don't lash out at people who are trying to help! I suppose that I've been polyamorous for decades... but I only heard the term for the 1st time a few weeks ago. I have been treated like a strange fish by many people, and I find this site so refreshing.

The term "polytamory" is fairly young, and - though there are certain groundrules (which I think that you would have no problem subscribing to... such as "cheating is NOT polyamory") - it hasn't been homogenised. (And I hope that it never will be! "For variety's the very spice of polyamory" [or something like that].) "Senior members" and moderators might have more experience, but they're not dictators - and I haven't (yet) come across one on here who wanted to be.

We're on here for debate, for mutual support (in a society that's largely hostile to the concept), for interchange of opinions and life-stories.

Please don't give up on us just because someone gives you advice you don't agree with and have no intention of following. If we preceded all our comments with "now this is just my personal opinion, and I hope that you won't take it the wrong way..." each post would be much longer.

@ both of you, as my grandfather used to say: "Well, get you a chair!" (Welcome!)

[sohuman]

@ sohuman: PLEASE don't lash out at people who are trying to help! I suppose that I've been polyamorous for decades... but I only heard the term for the 1st time a few weeks ago. I have been treated like a strange fish by many people, and I find this site so refreshing.

The term "polytamory" is fairly young, and - though there are certain groundrules (which I think that you would have no problem subscribing to... such as "cheating is NOT polyamory") - it hasn't been homogenised. (And I hope that it never will be! "For variety's the very spice of polyamory" [or something like that].) "Senior members" and moderators might have more experience, but they're not dictators - and I haven't (yet) come across one on here who wanted to be.

We're on here for debate, for mutual support (in a society that's largely hostile to the concept), for interchange of opinions and life-stories.

Please don't give up on us just because someone gives you advice you don't agree with and have no intention of following. If we preceded all our comments with "now this is just my personal opinion, and I hope that you won't take it the wrong way..." each post would be much longer.

@ both of you, as my grandfather used to say: "Well, get you a chair!" (Welcome!)

Thank you for your message. I like the quotes too. This goes to show that it is entirely possible to welcome someone without judging and lecturing them. I'm sorry, but right after I had just found the courage to open up, she told me she knew better than me, and then called us hurtful, mean, disrespectful, and vindictive, and bad role models for our child. Not fucking cool. Don't care if you're "just trying to help", it would have been far more helpful to SHARE whatever of her stories of self-esteem she thought were relevant than to lecture me. And I didn't appreciate Catfish copying and pasting that lecture as if I couldn't read or something.

I shared a bunch more and was met with even more judgment and condescension by NYCIndie.

I then deleted what more I had shared and had every intention of leaving the forum (I can choose to be part of the community here or not based on who's in it and how they treat me), but maybe I should just put her on ignore since you have most been top drawer.

It's not that I don't appreciate advice or don't have any intention of following it, it's how it's phrased. If I stay here, I plan to share my stories with people rather than tell them what I think of them.

I can tell you upfront that I am intelligent, not because I think I know better than other people, but because of my capacity to think things through and to understand them based on logic, for example, I have been reading about poly for only a short time but here is a reflection:

I would actually not endorse the statement that cheating is not polyamory. I contend that polyamory is the rejection of the belief that sexual and/or romantic exclusivity is either necessary or sufficient for all healthy romantic relationships. I contend also that this view (in this case the rejection of a belief) dictates neither a specific relationship structure nor specific behaviors. I'd contend that the wikipedia page needs to be changed even.

Like it or not, there are going to be people who hold the same view but act either ethically or unethically, and there are going to be people who act ethically or unethically, or both, in all relationship structures. This is because the view (rejection of that specific belief) does not dictate whether people are in monogamous or non-monogamous relationships, whether or how they hurt each other, whether or how they handle any hurt that they cause each other, or whether and how they go forward together. A logical parallel to "cheating is not poly" would be "atheists don't kill people". And atheism is a good parallel because it too is not a belief, but rather a view based on rejection of a belief. Being a Humanist and atheist in my views, of course it bugs me that Stalin was also an atheist, but I have to accept the fact that he, like me, rejected the idea that God exists and that for whatever reason related to that or his other views, acted unethically (hmm, maybe he wasn't a Humanist). To witness what happened and then make conclusions based on erroneous logic, like:

- "Atheism is immoral as evidenced by these atrocities", or similarly wrong:
- "People who kill must not be true atheists, because I am a true atheist and I don't kill"

...well, judgments about others' morality that are based on faulty logic, just like judgments based on partial information, are problematic. Because of the prevalence of faulty logic and/or incomplete information, expressing opinions of each other's morality is in itself often problematic (just my belief). If I stayed, I would not pass judgment on or lecture any of you, because I assume I have only partial information and I know how hard it is to share personal stuff like this.

The way-too-long-story-short of what I deleted is that I am not using poly to justify cheating, and Conchordian's belief that I was doing that was based on an innocent communication faux pas that will be corrected in the future (us idiotically trying to have long important conversations after I've taken my sleeping pill for the night!).

I'll need some time away in either case because this is time-consuming and not necessarily good for me meeting my life goals right now.

[FlameKat]

If I may, jump in quickly again.... (Smilies people...)

Sohuman, it seems to me that at this point you are looking for support, as well as direction (in the giving of advice - :pyour choice of course to take it)...

The section called Life stories and blogs may have been more appropriate for you to share your story and open up:) - that section is a 'protected area'... This section, and the general discussions section tend to be a little more blunt and direct...:eek:

Please do continue to read here, if you are not comfortable sharing more of your story, please get involved in the discussions on other threads, being careful not to take personal offense at comments (I found it hard in my initial stages on here not to feel personally attacked... with one memorable thread ending up transferring into the forum sociology thread :eek::o:P)

and just for the record... NyCindie is a good person - sometimes a little more direct than is easily appreciated... there are a few others on here like that...:eek:

myself I find their bluntness (now) to be refreshing and helpful and, in particular, if something they have said set me off... I need to ask why...:confused: (yes it may have been rudely said or whatever :rolleyes:- but why did it REALLY upset me) - to a large degree I have found that their response has triggered something I was feeling deep down that I need to work on:(, or clarified something I didn't want to admit:o (and on occasion has simply come out of left field and left me stunned going "what the...") however, this is just me...

I do hope you will stay and take advantage of what really is an amazing community of people...

[nycindie]

and just for the record... NyCindie is a good person - sometimes a little more direct than is easily appreciated... there are a few others on here like that...:eek:

Thanks for the vote of confidence. Sometimes being a New Yorker is both a curse and a blessing, in terms of being blunt. Some people love it, some people hate it. I really meant no ill will toward either of them, and hope that they both come back and get what they need from this awesome community. I will butt out unless asked. Promise!

[LovingRadiance]

And at least one other person thought what I said could be valuable to you.

More than one.

It SUCKS to be on the receiving end of your unrelenting condescension. I truly regret trying to join this community and would delete everything if I could.

I find that often if we don't know someone, especially if they are from a different life environment than we are (town, country, school, age group etc) it's EASY to interpret what they say incorrectly-because we're filtering it through OUR experience, but they don't have OUR experience.

This happens a lot between my 19 year old and I. She's an amazingly loving person, and not 10 minutes ago we were talking and I said, "sometimes when you talk the tone of voice you use sounds to me like you are being a condescending bitch, but I know that's now your intent." She nodded and said, "thanks, you're right, that's not at all what I meant".

But, for HER group of friends, that tone ISN'T condescending bitch, with mine, it is. ;)

I happen to have been on this board for over a year, and I've read MANY of NYCindie's posts. When I read the ones on your thread, I didn't see her being condescending at all. In fact, I read them as very concerned and caring.

What that tells me is that there is a huge disparity of life experience between you and she (and you and me too). THAT is a GOOD thing.

Seriously-It means that we all stand to be able to learn new things from each other.

BUT ONLY if we assume from the outset that we all have hte best of INTENTIONS and don't get all riled up by each other.

If you did go back and re-read what she said, and instead of looking for how she was attacking you, just look for what in her post might be helpful.... what do you find?

Mr. Right-You rock. ;) I am so glad you joined the board. I've enjoyed every post I've seen thus far this week. :)

[conchordian]

The question:"Do you honestly believe" is not only a condescending turn of phrase, it's also antagonistic. It means: "Are you really, honestly so stupid that you can't understand the following point that everybody else can see plain as day, or are you just the biggest hypocrite?", usually followed by the simplest to grasp version of said point.

In that spirit of "tough love" informed by wisdom accumulated over years of life experience, here are some questions to everybody who can't see it:
1- Do you honestly believe that berating people over what they' ve already admitted to be bad behavior is productive?
2- Do you honestly believe that tearing people who are just opening up a new one is conducive to them opening up further, and remaining open to constructive criticism?
3- Do you honestly believe that further insulting them over their parenting (which you are making outrageous assumptions about) should be part of a proper apology?

So let's see what's been accomplished so far: Actual damage. This is a shame because good points were made, several others finally well articulated, but in the end, because you have no clue as to how to phrase your opinion in a constructive way, sohuman is really, truly pissed, and has no more interest in using this forum again. And believe me, this forum has a lot to gain from someone like her being involved. She may have thinner than ideal skin, but is an exceptional thinker/writer.

And those of you who came to NYCindie's defense: you realize what you're doing is gang up on this new person who's trying to be honest, do the right thing, and just opened up, right? Being cluelessly blunt can have bad consequences.

Either way, I'm still here. I'm just not sure I'm interested in keeping up with the many unproductive tangents...

I'll have another post soon adressing actual issues.

[FlameKat]

For myself - I was not coming to Nycindies defense so much as trying to get across that she meant no harm... and was not attacking...

"Do you honestly believe" can be said without a condescending tone? We are new to both of you... how are we to know what you honestly and deeply believe without asking? From the perspective I read it - i felt it was asking for a response that clarified further how one felt/thought - not an implied criticism at all... maybe it was written in a way that lacked a way of showing tone... but it was also read in a way that was not how it was intended AND took the worst possible meaning from it:eek:...

it has all been miscommunication.

Anyway, sohuman is obviously hurting very badly and feeling very poorly misunderstood - if I have contributed to that - I apologise for adding to that.

@choncordian... This is a shame because good points were made, several others finally well articulated, but in the end, because you have no clue as to how to phrase your opinion in a constructive way, sohuman is really, truly pissed, and has no more interest in using this forum again.
like any other place in life - you get out what you put in.

this forum is responsible for assisting many many people deal with issues that are very very emotional... as a group - we are not perfect either... as individuals.. we also are not perfect... we are human too and struggling just as much as each of you... why are you attacking us because sohuman has issues that were triggered by something that was said on here?:confused:
as you yourself said - you are new here - how are we to know what her trigger points are and what will set her off.... no-one on here sets out to deliberately antagonise or hurt another member - and in any case where it is suspected or confirmed the mods take care of it quite decisively (you will notice in some of threads that some names may have the word "banned" where others have their member level)

Right now...

to me the issue would be to surely find out why she is so very upset? surely the opinion of a complete stranger would not have that much effect? the fact that no-one else has called nycindie out on what she said... to me implies that there was some validity to her concerns - however badly expressed, that there was genuine question in there that others were curious about as well.
That sohuman flipped out? to me would imply a sensitivity to that issue... perhaps she feels that that particular issue (or something related) is a concern.... for whatever reason... (maybe it is as simple as perceptions... similar to the coming out thing for gay/bi/trans people... maybe she has concerns deep down about how she will be perceived (or even how she perceives herself - particularly as you have been pretty blunt on how you disbelieve that polyamory is truly her thing)... that she herself is unaware of at this point??)
Or maybe it is as simple as she didn't get the support that she was looking for to keep charging ahead... that she was bluntly told that she wasn't yet in a place where she was ready for poly either...:eek:

I know i found that hard to hear myself... in fact i saw red:mad: and lashed out. I had just come to a place (here - this forum) and everything i read 'fitted' like a glove - i was all "oh this is me - this is who i am":D... then my fiance is all "I don't think you can do it... you didnt know how you felt about T, you were ignoring me, you were sleeping during my time so you could be awake during his time" (not true though there were occasions)... I did not take that well at all. "it's different now - i know how i feel, we know what to look for..." but the simple fact is I was not ready, and I am still learning... I wait and wait and wait for WW to be ready... but I have so much work to do on myself:o before I can even start (and we don't have the cheating issue to deal with) thinking about moving forward... it would be really nice to take a step or two diagonally forward tho :p

hopefully sohuman will come back to us when she is ready. and i do hope i didn't come off as offensive in this post - simply giving my perspective.

[redpepper]

woah, this train wreck just keeps on going doesn't it! ;) :D (yes that is meant to be funny folks.....). It's ashame you didn't keep that post S (mods can still see posts after deletion), it was a good one and very informative... I certainly was able to understand a bit more what is going on for you....

NYCindie... the fact that you are from NY is not the thing here.... I thought sarcasm reined here due to C's posts and that a kind of "atmosphere" was created early on... I understand that you were following suit. It seems that what you said was blown out of proportion (that from someone that has known you for a long time!).... no biggy, what you said (sarcasm and directness aside) was valid....

Ah well, that's it from me... good luck to both of you. Hope you get some of this worked out.

[nycindie]

NYCindie... the fact that you are from NY is not the thing here.... I thought sarcasm reined here due to C's posts and that a kind of "atmosphere" was created early on... I understand that you were following suit. It seems that what you said was blown out of proportion (that from someone that has known you for a long time!).... no biggy, what you said (sarcasm and directness aside) was valid....

RP, I wasn't going to post here again, but since you did address me, I will say I wasn't being sarcastic at all. Everything I said I would say to someone near and dear to me, in a gentle loving tone, so it is a shame that I have been misunderstood as condescending. It seems every word I wrote was blown out of proportion. In my head, when I say, "Do you honestly believe...," it only means just that, an inquiry - "Is this something you truly believe or invest in?" The questions were not meant to direct judgment but to provoke some self-inquiry. "Here's a few things to consider." That's all. It is also a shame, and rather unproductive, for so much focus to have been placed on a few of my words rather than the content, which was echoed by many here. But I also understand the need to avoid looking deeper when fighting and resisting being challenged is a prime directive, so all I can do is wish everyone well. I must say I admire Sohuman's intelligence, which is obvious in her writing.

I really don't think it's necessary to keep rehashing what I said, maybe someone else can do some reframing or add other perspectives (if they really want to hear it) and continue the discussion so the OP and her hubs can get some healing and insight from being here. But please, everyone, leave me out of it.

[LovingRadiance]

The question:"Do you honestly believe" is not only a condescending turn of phrase, it's also antagonistic. It means: "Are you really, honestly so stupid that you can't understand the following point that everybody else can see plain as day, or are you just the biggest hypocrite?", usually followed by the simplest to grasp version of said point.
It absolutely can mean that, you are write, depending upon tone of voice. Unfortunately on a message board, we don't have tone of voice to guage.
In my life, it's often used (by many people) to ask a sincere question when trying to get advice. Such as "do you honestly believe that I should do that? I would expect it to have a negative result, not a positive one..." Which isn't condescending or antagonistic.
It's really a matter of perspective.

1- Do you honestly believe that berating people over what they' ve already admitted to be bad behavior is productive?No, certainly not. But, as someone whose committed some heiniously bad relationship behavior, I do find it productive to honestly address which behaviors are likely to result in which unproductive consequences in order to help each other avoid those consequences.

2- Do you honestly believe that tearing people who are just opening up a new one is conducive to them opening up further, and remaining open to constructive criticism?No. Unfortunately, sometimes, when a person is already hurting and defensive, even the kindest intention can be taken wrong. Much like an injured animal-when you reach out to help them, they bite. Because through their pain and defensiveness they are unable to see the INTENTION. There are people on the board who speak languages besides English as their primary language, and there are many who live in different countries than the US with completely different "norm's" for terminology, different understandings of appropriate, hell we've encountered confusion because the definition of 'friend with benefits' and the definition of 'fuck buddy' are different for different places!
In order to productively communicate and seek help on a message board (especially one with such a HUGE variety of nationalities and lifestyles as this) each person has to be willing to first ask "did you MEAN xyz, because that was what I thought you meant?" before getting offended. Because there is a HIGH probability that what was intended to be conveyed, was not what was ACTUALLY conveyed.
Hell-that happens between my husband and I when we write on here and we freaking KNOW each other and live in the same house, speak the same language etc. But, writing just limits the ability to convey precise thought. So much of communication is visual-and that is lost on a message board.
Add to that the limitations of not knowing for sure the terms that describe the picture you are trying to convey, and not having the same understanding of the meaning of any given term OR phrase...
Whew-it's a wonder any of us ever make sense of each other! ;)

3- Do you honestly believe that further insulting them over their parenting (which you are making outrageous assumptions about) should be part of a proper apology?Nope. But, I do think that showing an interest and concern and then pointing it out to the other person is helpful. Should it all have been in separate posts, probably so. But, we all are at fault of trying to simplify things and waste less time. Sometimes-that's not really the best route to take.

sohuman is really, truly pissed, and has no more interest in using this forum again.
That's unfortunate. Because the truth is, that she (like each of us as individuals) has every right to ask for opinions, read (or not read) the responses and then decide for herself what she'd like to do with those opinions if anything. There's no need to allow the opinions or communication skills of a complete stranger upset one so much.
I often read things on here that I think are a crock of shit. I just skim right over and keep on going, looking for the little gems that make my life a little brighter.
Maybe, if she would take a deep breath, and consider why she really personally cares about a total strangers opinion, she'll find, that she doesn't and she could still move on and enjoy participating on the board?

And those of you who came to NYCindie's defense: you realize what you're doing is gang up on this new person who's trying to be honest, do the right thing, and just opened up, right? Being cluelessly blunt can have bad consequences.Are you saying that we're all being cluelessly blunt or that we're wrong for accepting that some people are cluelessly blunt? I'm not sure.
Also, defending someone is not necesarrily attacking another. I can stand in front of and defend my child-without ever lashing out. Example-original Karate Kid movie taught this concept.

I do look forward to getting to know you both in future posts. I have to run, I have a meeting. I'll read more when I return.

LR

[redpepper]

RP, I wasn't going to post here again, but since you did address me, I will say I wasn't being sarcastic at all. Everything I said I would say to someone near and dear to me, in a gentle loving tone, so it is a shame that I have been misunderstood as condescending. It seems every word I wrote was blown out of proportion. In my head, when I say, "Do you honestly believe...," it only means just that, an inquiry - "Is this something you truly believe or invest in?" The questions were not meant to direct judgment but to provoke some self-inquiry. "Here's a few things to consider." That's all. It is also a shame, and rather unproductive, for so much focus to have been placed on a few of my words rather than the content, which was echoed by many here. But I also understand the need to avoid looking deeper when fighting and resisting being challenged is a prime directive, so all I can do is wish everyone well. I must say I admire Sohuman's intelligence, which is obvious in her writing.

I really don't think it's necessary to keep rehashing what I said, maybe someone else can do some reframing or add other perspectives (if they really want to hear it) and continue the discussion so the OP and her hubs can get some healing and insight from being here. But please, everyone, leave me out of it.
Ah, okay. Not sarcastic, just a way of saying something. Got it :) thanks for clarifying

[nycindie]

Oh, I just want to add that I regret not expressing myself in a way that delivered my intention of being supportive and helpful. And I am very sorry for causing any hurt.

[LovingRadiance]

I have 5 minutes til the car is warmed up, so I wanted to say something real quick before I run off.


If you are interested in getting more information on dealing with "she cheated, now she says she's poly, where the hell do we go from here" topic,
please, feel free to read my blog (listed in my signature). There's a ton of information in there.

Also, you can do a search in the search section for what was written here by specific posters, you might search mine and my husbands (LovingRadiance & Maca). There's a good amount of history about the struggles we've been through in this mess.

[sohuman]

IndieNYC, thank you for your apology.

Best, -SH

[ladyintricate]

Hello and welcome sohuman and cochordian!

I am very new to polyamory myself. One thing I can tell you is that there are a lot of people here with amazing success stories and very helpful advice.

The main thing I have found here so far is understanding. Not complete understanding, but a much better idea of what it is like for my husband (he's the poly one) and ways that others have made a poly relationship work.

I have been helped a lot by reading the posts under the tags: "boundaries," "cheating," and "compromise."

You may also want to check out the thread:
Poly Lessons We've Learned

Feel free to read my story and all the helpful advice I have gotten so far too! http://www.polyamory.com/forum/showthread.php?t=7110&highlight=ladyintricate

[redpepper]

You may also want to check out the thread:
Poly Lessons We've Learned found by doing a tag search for "lessons" :D

good call! :)