Couple-hunting in Unicornia [Archive]

BlackUnicorn

02-23-2011, 10:09 AM

So far, all the people I've talked to about my situation have responded with either 'Is this poly or are you just having some R&R?' or with 'Wow, so you really want to have the complications of a monogamous relationship multiplied?'.

The particular friend who came up with the latter comment shared some of her own pain of having once been the unwitting mono participant in a vee. She also wonders about another friend in a similar situation, whom she thinks really could do with someone who can give their full attention to him. We agreed that it's easy to pass judgment on what you think other people need, but you never can know just how any particular relationship or life-situation fits the needs of a particular person at a particular time.

So far it seems the only person who has a problem with me coming out as poly is me. Mental note to self: Never underestimate the awesomeness of people around you. Those who know you best love you for what and who you are, just like you do them.

nycindie

02-23-2011, 10:27 AM

Never underestimate the awesomeness of people around you.

This!

I think I'll print that sentence out and hang it on my door - love it!

LovingRadiance

02-24-2011, 01:38 AM

Congratulations. That's wonderful! Now, on to accepting yourself! ;)

BlackUnicorn

02-27-2011, 02:15 PM

So what I'm really looking for? Trying to keep an open mind, sure, but secretly, of course I have an idea of what qualities my one and only couple would ideally have.

1) People who don't play cheap with their heart.

2) I'm primarily looking for a man-woman couple where at least the woman identifies as bi. Not that I would say 'no way' to any nice same-sex couples, either, but I find inside me a longing to have a partner of both genders.

3) Sexually compatible people. I find that compatibility is something you don't believe exists until you experience it. I wonder why sexual orientation is still described in terms of societally assigned gender identifications, instead of how people orient themselves in sexual encounters. I find that a much more apt and possibly fruitful description of my sexual orientation, instead of bisexual or even Kinsey 4, is lazy. Yep, I don't care if you're a girl, a guy or a pie, as long as you do all the work. My favorite position? Prone. Or as the okcupid test so frighteningly accurately put it, I'm a confident dominant who likes to receive.

4) I'm not looking for a primarily sexual connection either. I've nursed my heart after my last break-up a year ago back into a fighting mode again. I have love to give.

5) Jealousy isn't a problem. Unwillingness to deal with jealousy is.

6) The prime attraction dating a couple holds for me is seeing the love the two people I love have for each other. The stronger the primary couple, the stronger the triad?

7) People who like to talk. A LOT. About their feelings, relationships, ideas, hopes, fears, fantasies, themselves. And who enjoy listening to others talk about the same stuff.

Of course, part of the beauty of poly is that you can't alway get what you want, but just sometimes, you get what you really need.

BlackUnicorn

03-03-2011, 09:37 AM

Okay, so this doesn't have a direct bearing to polyamory, but relates to healing and becoming a whole person, so I'll share.

This morning I got my very first tattoo ever. It is located on my solar plexus and has the following text; 2. Cor. 12:9.

The Bible verse it refers to is, following the New International Translation, this one;

But he said to me, “My grace is sufficient for you, for my power is made perfect in weakness.” Therefore I will boast all the more gladly about my weaknesses, so that Christ’s power may rest on me.

I have struggled with panic disorder, and I chose the solar plexus because that part of my body is where I first feel an attack coming. For all of you fellow polys, monos and intererested who have 'a thorn in your flesh', be you of whatever religious persuasion or none, I wish the most glorious day!

DayStar

03-05-2011, 07:50 AM

I like this!

BlackUnicorn

03-05-2011, 09:58 PM

So yeah. I was a big girl today. I was brave.

I sent an e-mail. It wasn't long, but it was terrifying. The brunt of it; If your wife isn't okay with this, neither am I.

I want to meet my metamour before taking things any further than they have already gone. I want to talk to her. I'll bring conversation cards if I must. But I don't want to hurt another human being by continuing an emotional affair with their partner and not knowing whether they a) know b) are okay with it.

I was looking for couples, remember? Triads. This thing hit me in the head and caught me unawares. I didn't plan this. I want to date poly people, goddammit! I want to have threesomes! I'm pretty sure there will be too many limbs for my taste but I still want it! I don't want to be the person who has to ask them to tell their wife.

Yup, me, Miss 'Responsible Polyamory is My Middle-Name', and I'm scared shitless of my new metamour. She will probably read every single guilty thought I've ever had about their partner right on my face.

Why couldn't I stop things from escalating? I'm no idiot, I saw where this was going. Deep down I knew it wasn't just friendship.

Shit, I'm officially the Other Woman now.

ImaginaryIllusion

03-05-2011, 10:15 PM

They say the road to hell is paved with good intentions...

Similarly, near as I can tell, the road to & through poly is rarely smooth...there's lots of speed bumps, potholes and detours...
So yeah. I was a big girl today. I was brave.

I sent an e-mail. It wasn't long, but it was terrifying. The brunt of it; If your wife isn't okay with this, neither am I.

I want to meet my metamour before taking things any further than they have already gone. I want to talk to her. I'll bring conversation cards if I must. But I don't want to hurt another human being by continuing an emotional affair with their partner and not knowing whether they a) know b) are okay with it.

Good on you for putting your foot down and spelling it out. You are right to insist.

nycindie

03-06-2011, 12:14 AM

Why couldn't I stop things from escalating? I'm no idiot, I saw where this was going. Deep down I knew it wasn't just friendship.

Shit, I'm officially the Other Woman now.

I didn't even know you were seeing someone. Did I miss that somehow? I knew you are looking for a couple with whom to be in a triad, but I thought you were currently single. Is this a new thing?

BlackUnicorn

03-06-2011, 01:06 PM

Indie, so did I think I was single. I'm not sure what to call myself now.

The thing is, coming from a small-ish country, I try to keep details of my personal dating live to an absolute minimum in what comes to genders, home towns etc. on this forum, and try not to post about people I haven't asked beforehand if it's okay for them to appear in my rants.

However, this didn't start out as dating. We met entirely accidentally, hit it off, became friends and now it appears have graduated into the muddy waters of romantic friendship.

Situation update: wife knows. She is feeling very insecure. I don't blame her. Personally, I think NRE is like a bus-load of shit that hits you in the face unawares, transforming you from a perfectly nice and sane individual into something way darker. The last thing I want is to foist my bus-load onto someone else.

I see three options where it can go from here.
1) She tells me to get the hell away.
2) She says it's me or her.
3) She wants to talk, vents some of her anger, tells me I'm an absolute shit-head and then wants to go get a beer together.
(4) She is super-excited, wants a secondary of her very own and we all collapse into a happy poly bundle. This is the fantasy la-la-land option, but I wanted to put it here anyway to make me feel better.)

I'm letting my contact info out there so she can communicate if and when she wants, don't want to butt myself in.

Magdlyn

03-06-2011, 04:17 PM

Unicorn, your issues with the partner of the guy you are interested in is what make (potential) triads so scary to me.

I've had so many female platonic friends whose husbands were douches (more conservative than their wives, or less respectful, or arrogant, or bad communicators, etc etc). I've had a few male friends whose wives I could barely stand, or who just bored me.

So, in a potential romantic situation, I feel that there is a minefield there. Sure, the couple might get along great, and viewing their love might give you warm fuzzy feelings. But it seems so rare that you will love both of the couple equally and that they will both also care about and desire you more or less equally. Sounds like the proverbial needle in a haystack rarity to me. If that is what you feel you need, I wish you luck on what will possibly be a long hard quest.

BlackUnicorn

03-06-2011, 04:25 PM

Thanks for input, Magdlyn!

Just for the sake of clarity, what I have in my hands is a potential for a vee, not a triad. The couple I met online are separate individuals. One of the first advice I ever got on poly was not to get fixated on a particular relationship formation and let things happen naturally. I did expect having to date, get myself really into the poly circles, go over a few heart-aches and then maybe find a nice little triad or a vee situation for myself, with additional lovers and a steady primary.

What I did not expect is to get hit in the face with a couple transitioning (?) and with a metamour who probably hates my guts right now, having to ask her to find it in herself to share, and accepting that since I have made a royal mess of things, she has every right to refuse.

Magdlyn

03-06-2011, 04:29 PM

Yeah, I had that happen more than once to me too. I was/am looking for poly guys. A couple times I got involved with married poly guys who were either less than truthful with me about their wives' feelings about poly, or fooling themselves about her enthusiasm for it, and having wishful thinking.

BlackUnicorn

03-06-2011, 04:36 PM

I'm somewhat disappointed with myself for starting to slip from friend mode to a flirt mode with someone I knew full well wasn't in the life. Feeling slightly better to know all self-styled married polys might not be so poly after all, even if that is a bit of a hollow comfort.

BlackUnicorn

03-06-2011, 04:38 PM

A couple times I got involved with married poly guys who were either less than truthful with me about their wives' feelings about poly, or fooling themselves about her enthusiasm for it, and having wishful thinking.

Yup, that's why I want multiple real good talks with her before going further with this. People see and hear what they want to, and in NRE people tend to have a 'love conquers all' mentality.

Did I mention I really hate NRE?

ImaginaryIllusion

03-06-2011, 07:19 PM

What I did not expect is to get hit in the face with a couple transitioning (?)
Oops. Careful you don't get any in the eyes. :p

A couple times I got involved with married poly guys who were either less than truthful with me about their wives' feelings about poly, or fooling themselves about her enthusiasm for it, and having wishful thinking.
I hate that...makes it much harder for the rest of us to be trusted on dating sites and the like.

People see and hear what they want to, and in NRE people tend to have a 'love conquers all' mentality.

This makes me wonder for a moment who the real unicorns might be...the HBB's? Or is it actually just couple who is genuinely ready and able to form a triad with one?

Did I mention I really hate NRE?
You're not the only one...

ladyintricate

03-07-2011, 12:44 AM

Yup, that's why I want multiple real good talks with her before going further with this. People see and hear what they want to, and in NRE people tend to have a 'love conquers all' mentality.

Did I mention I really hate NRE?

Unicorn, coming from the perspective of the "wife" or "primary" I hope I can ease your anxiety a little bit. I know that in my own trainwreck situation if my husband's love had told me up front (or almost) that she didn't want things to progress any farther without me being onboard, that would have meant a LOT to me. Now my husband should have told me anyway, but we have our own situation that is different from yours.

NRE can really throw a wrench into just about any relationship, can't it? I am recognizing this big time.

Anyway, my point is really that you have done just what you should and I certainly hope for your sake that this ends with a big bed full of snuggly people. ;)

BlackUnicorn

03-10-2011, 08:13 PM

Thank you, Lady, and I feel you might have already answered my question, but I will put it out there still.

My metamour is in a really bad place now. My prospective partner says it's something they'll have to fix together. The wife is considerably less into polyamory - this has come up before, prior to me.

How do I keep from butting my big head in and micro-managing their relationship? I do love her, and hate to hear she is hurting. I would not take things back if I could, because this is something they would have had to deal with at some time - if it hadn't been me, it would have been someone else. But how to make her see it's not that she is loved any less, but the exact opposite is occurring?

bella123456

03-11-2011, 09:10 AM

My metamour is in a really bad place now. My prospective partner says it's something they'll have to fix together. The wife is considerably less into polyamory - this has come up before, prior to me.

How do I keep from butting my big head in and micro-managing their relationship? I do love her, and hate to hear she is hurting. I would not take things back if I could, because this is something they would have had to deal with at some time - if it hadn't been me, it would have been someone else. But how to make her see it's not that she is loved any less, but the exact opposite is occurring?

I hear you. I don't have time to offer much more at present....but, yes..I think I understand the position you may be in. I've been there too..

Can you step back for a second and get some perspective ? I'm not sure of the intricacies that may already be present..

Wish I could write a bit more...perhaps later..

ladyintricate

03-11-2011, 06:14 PM

My metamour is in a really bad place now. My prospective partner says it's something they'll have to fix together. The wife is considerably less into polyamory - this has come up before, prior to me.

But how to make her see it's not that she is loved any less, but the exact opposite is occurring?

It sounds to me like this may be something that she has to work through with her husband and there is probably not much you can do. One thing though is to just be EXTREMELY honest and open and just let her know that you will not do anything without her knowledge and that you are not there to interfere/come between her relationship with her husband. making that very clear and that you love both of them, may make her feel more secure and more able to move forward. I am betting that probably her biggest fear is that in loving you he will love her less, or even that with you in the picture he will stop loving her. These are fears I have struggled with, so that is my guess. ;)

I hope that helps!

Ariakas

03-11-2011, 08:06 PM

It sounds to me like this may be something that she has to work through with her husband and there is probably not much you can do.

Ditto. I try my best to stay out of metamour love problems. I will offer support to the person I am with... but I don't interfere. It isn't my place and it shouldn' t be

BlackUnicorn

03-17-2011, 11:42 AM

Haven't been able to post for a while due to health issues, but now I think I'm back in the game!

Great input, thank you. I will be there if I'm needed, but will not impose myself on anyone.

Recent things that have popped into my mind with a new physical relationship in the works;

1) BDSM. Does. Not. Excite. Me. Sexually. Will a mixed-orientation relationship with me and a BDSM enthusiast ever work, or shall we eventually grow frustrated/bored? I'm hoping it could be a shared hobby, I'm always open to learning new stuff, but can I really trivialize someone's sexual identity to the level of a hobby?

2) Time-management, or why do I keep receiving text messages? I know the answer for this; take a calendar and schedule. I hate giving the impression that I'm not as eager as I am, but I just require a lot of me time and am not interested in constant instant communication, powered by modern communication technologies. How to say stop blowing up my phone nicely? It's not that I don't like them; I just require a lot less constant in-touchness than I think most people do.

Magdlyn

03-17-2011, 12:50 PM

1) BDSM. Does. Not. Excite. Me. Sexually. Will a mixed-orientation relationship with me and a BDSM enthusiast ever work, or shall we eventually grow frustrated/bored? I'm hoping it could be a shared hobby, I'm always open to learning new stuff, but can I really trivialize someone's sexual identity to the level of a hobby?

Relationships between poly vanillas and kinksters can work. Lots of kinky people also enjoy straight up hot intense vanilla sex. As long as they are poly, they could get the good vanilla sex with you and look for the sprinkles and hot fudge sauce elsewhere.

BlackUnicorn

03-19-2011, 06:54 PM

Well, maybe not really, but let's say I'm out of touch.

What is the first ground rule for getting involved with ANYONE, on romantic or friendship basis? Anyone?

Yeah, you sir right there. You know the answer don't you. And the couple holding hands in front knows it too. That's why they're holding hands in the first place. Yep, how could I forget about it? It's not like I haven't had any friends or partners ever before.

Be yourself as you truly are, not trying to guess what your prospective partner wants you to be and then trying to act like it.

Yeah, I know, I have issues. I generally don't believe people want to hang out or have sex with me for any other than purely humanitarian concerns. I also tend to think people well in their twenties and beyond are way too young to avoid getting entangled with me and well in above their heads, so I'm trying to prepare their escape routes for them. I'm basically a walking 'Please don't date me, I'm way too clingy for you' sign. If I as much as find I like someone, I get immediately super concerned in thinking I might be smothering them with my love.

I'm a nice girl, really. I'd date me. For whatever reason, I do believe other's generally wouldn't. I blame it on having been constantly told I'm too this or that, too weird, too intense, too loud, too talkative, too off, too smart, too competent, too pushy, too passionate what-the-fuck-ever. Somewhere along the way, I convinced myself 'too' was a dirty word.

For now, I'm going to be just too much myself. That will either kick-start this relationship, or send it all to hell. But I am too tired to tiptoe around anyone right now.

AnnabelMore

03-19-2011, 10:55 PM

"For now, I'm going to be just too much myself. That will either kick-start this relationship, or send it all to hell. But I am too tired to tiptoe around anyone right now. "

Absolutely!!! Your partner(s) may be dear to you, but it'll save everyone a lot of pain if a fundamental lack of compatability is revealed at the start. Gottagottagotta be yourself.

AnnabelMore

03-19-2011, 10:57 PM

1) BDSM. Does. Not. Excite. Me. Sexually. Will a mixed-orientation relationship with me and a BDSM enthusiast ever work, or shall we eventually grow frustrated/bored? I'm hoping it could be a shared hobby, I'm always open to learning new stuff, but can I really trivialize someone's sexual identity to the level of a hobby?

I think it depends on how essential it is to the other person's sexuality. Like, me, I have serious submissive leanings (with certain people anyway) but I'm perfectly capable of craving and enjoying-to-pieces vanilla sex and vanilla love. Especially considering that your partner is living a poly lifestyle, there's no reason he can't have a slice of vanilla and a slice of chocolate... unless he ONLY likes chocolate, and then your vanilla self might have a problem.

ladyintricate

03-20-2011, 12:51 AM

1) BDSM. Does. Not. Excite. Me. Sexually.

I had to smile when I read this. I agree completely. I think I can see how BDSM could be great for someone else, but not so sure about myself. May I suggest, just go to your partner with the disclaimer ahead of time that it may not be for you and then experiement a little! Maybe some of it will excite you (I think I may be more excited by all the leather more than anything else, myself!)? If not, then jsut tell them. As long as you are honest, it is not reducing it to a hobby or being disrespectful. :p

2) Time-management, or why do I keep receiving text messages? I know the answer for this; take a calendar and schedule. I hate giving the impression that I'm not as eager as I am, but I just require a lot of me time and am not interested in constant instant communication, powered by modern communication technologies.

I like the occasional text message, but a continuous stream can be annoying for sure! When it gets to be annoying (you are discussing abstract concepts one sentence, or even word, at a time) just pick up the phone if you can and tell them to talk to you that way. OR if you are at work or otherwise unable to talk then text them one time that you are busy and then turn the phone to silent. Most chronic texters figure out pretty quick that you are not afflicted with the bug if they do not get a response for an hour. Don't feel guilty if you have told them one time that it is not a good time and then they keept texting, you have set a limit - they should respect that.

As far as time management in the stricktist sense: I am very bad at this and can barely juggle my husband, my 2 kids (12 and 2), my friendships, my job, and my school (in a master's program). I have no idea how we will find the time for everyone once we are ready to find a third....good luck! ;)

ladyintricate

03-20-2011, 01:04 AM

What is the first ground rule for getting involved with ANYONE, on romantic or friendship basis? Anyone?

Be yourself as you truly are, not trying to guess what your prospective partner wants you to be and then trying to act like it.

Ding! Ding! DING! You are absolutely right! I think that too often people try to be what their partner wants them to be (or what they think their partner wants them to be?) and being someone other than yourself cannot ever be sustained for long. More to the point, not being YOU is depriving that person of really loving you.

I definitely understand though. I have almost made an art form of doing this ("being" what my partners want). I am extremely good at anticipating other people's needs and wants and usually try to conform to them unconsciously. It is something about myself that I have been working on for a long time and still work on. When you do this for too long it becomes hard for even you to know what you want or who you are. Not good for obvious reasons. It makes me a great gift giver though (and I bet you are, too, BlackUnicorn)! ;)

For now, I'm going to be just too much myself. That will either kick-start this relationship, or send it all to hell. But I am too tired to tiptoe around anyone right now.

I don't think you can be "too" much yourself at all. From what I can see, you seem like a wonderful person who is perfect just the way you are. Be yourself and if they don't like it, forget them! :D

TeamD79

03-21-2011, 11:31 PM

I must say I (Heather, the wife in a couple looking to be a unicorn's one and only couple again) can relate very well to the issues she is having. When we first became involved with our beautiful girlie it was very scary. It was a first time adventure and we had no idea what we were looking for or what would or could happen.
I was afraid that feelings would arise between the two of them and that I would be left alone.

I suggest creating a bond with her. Spend as much time with her as you can, reassure her, make her feel safe. Be attentive to her. When she is afraid, stop to calm her fears.Take good care of her, and she will be very willing to in return give you the world. After all, how can anyone not fall in love with that, right? I sure did.

It takes a lot for a wife to give up so much, and that is what it feels like to her now. So it is your job to fill the spaces and the holes she opens in her heart to make room for you and it is important to keep them filled.

You have a lot of work ahead of you, but it is so so rewarding. Best of luck to all of you :)

-- Posted by Heather

TeamD79

03-21-2011, 11:43 PM

I (Kris) agree, just because it didn't start as an equal relationship, does not mean that it can not grow into one.

We started the same, as just looking for a sexual partner, but we found the relationship that developed was MUCH more rewarding & filled a part of us we didn't know was missing.

the main key is Talking & Honesty, tell it like it is & don't hide anything.
Everyone's feelings are important!

-- Posted by Kris

BlackUnicorn

03-31-2011, 12:50 PM

Seriously, thank you everyone! If this flu shall not be the death of me, I have received so much warm-hearted and totally valid advice I can keep on another decade of poly with this!

Not been posting for a while since wasn't sure exactly how to formulate. But yeah, my second polyship is now over. His call, not mine. And what did we learn?

1) Orgasms are just that - orgasms. They do not great sex make. What makes sex great again?
2) Enthusiasm. Without enthusiasm over your partner and that 'OMG we're having sex this is SOO exciting I can't wait for you to take your clothers off' feeling sex feels like assisted masturbation. And I hear they make toys for that.
3) What makes sex horrible, provided it's consensual and reasonably safe and sane? Feeling like you are an item to be ticked off on someone's 'To Do'-list.

And finally, I shall quote Ms. Germaine Greer;

'I'd rather be in no relationship than be in a bad relationship, and rather have no sex than have bad sex.'

Hear hear!

BlackUnicorn

04-06-2011, 12:14 PM

magikman79

04-06-2011, 09:58 PM

I've been wondering lately how much of my enthusiasm for poly is fueled by a general feeling of loneliness. Not to say that it's wrong to want multiple relationships as a response to loneliness, but just wondering at the timing. I've been heavily involved with caring until very recently and now that I'm not so sorely needed anymore I find I have more free time in my hands than ever before. And also, when I think on it hard, there aren't that many people close by I can just comfortably hang out with.

Speaking of time, Ive noticed Heather & I have an AMPLE amount of time since our triangle ended that were not sure what to do with.

We have started searching on OKcupid & actually got a couple of replies, but most want to move much faster than we are ready for yet.

I guess were looking for ppl to comfortably hang out with first too.

BlackUnicorn

04-11-2011, 10:38 AM

We have started searching on OKcupid & actually got a couple of replies, but most want to move much faster than we are ready for yet.

I can sympathize. I think part of it is the feeling of 'oh wow I never new people like this actually existed I'm so psyched right now let's all move out to the countryside and start a big poly family together'.

Unicorns are tough. We can be so giving it goes a bit over-board sometimes.

But, the issue of the day, or how to be a great guy and metamour-with-benefits (MwB) par excellance.

He suggested taking the kids out for a LONG walk to let me and lady wife spend some quality time together without her having to go constantly check on the baby.

Seriously, this guy is lovable. I love cuddling with him. I think we will definitely be great friends and after some adjusting, probably have fun sexy times together too. But things like these make me feel all ooshy-mooshy inside. There is nothing quite as endearing as a guy who treats his wife like a real person and who knows how to share.

Yeah, a serious case of metamour-crush developing.

magikman79

04-11-2011, 09:46 PM

You sound much happier, I'm glad you found what you were looking for :)

BlackUnicorn

04-12-2011, 11:13 AM

So yesterday night I came clean to Mum. About everything.

1) Sweetheart. She asked me if I am going to fall apart in the case he dies on duty. I said it's better to have loved and lost than not having loved at all. She disagrees.

2) Mr. and Mrs. Sweets. She fears that when I inevitably at some point want to find a partner to get married to and have children with, this will be a phase of my life I will have to hide in fear of it ever coming out. I think she feels I've swam so far against the mainstream that I risk drowning, that somehow I will be 'ruined goods' for 'normal' relationships from now on.

She expressed how surprised she was that she has not been successful in transmitting any of her values to me. She fears I will burn badly and is so sorry to know I have no self-respect. I told her that my self-respect isn't as intimately tied to the details of my sex life as she implies. She says she doesn't get it, that she comes from such a different culture and viewpoint that there's no point arguing over it.

She feels this is just me looking for self-validation and acceptance through sex. I disagree. Sex is the least part of this lifestyle but I don't know how to explain it to her. She asked me if I was cheating on my ex. She said she wonders if I am capable of sexual fidelity at all, or if I'm doomed to cheat on my partners and incapable of monogamy (for clarification, I've never cheated, and am more than capable of sexual fidelity).

I decided to come clean when after being caught in yet another lie, I told her that I fear she will not be able to handle the truth. She said so many people have lied to her in her life, all meaning well, all trying to protect her, that she was sick to her stomach with it. So I told her everything. She said it was I who was afraid of people abandoning me if they knew the truth about me, which is very true, I think. Here's to my mono Mum giving me a lesson in the dangers of projecting our feelings to our partners in intimate relationships :rolleyes:.

Tonight I am going to see a recital and then we have a tv night with Mum. I wanted to share this in case there are people on this forum who still live with their parents or are otherwise in daily contact with them and find it exceedingly impractical and taxing to hide the specifics of their love lives from their folks. In sort of 'this is what you might expect' kind of way.

BlackUnicorn

04-14-2011, 10:16 AM

There is a piece of paper on my desk that I constantly take a look at. On it I've written the names of the people in my spiritual group and linked everyone together in a circular pattern. Just a little outside of the circle there are two new names that I've been wanting invite to our group.

The problem? Our group would become unwieldy with the addition of TWO new members. Not only would we run out of meeting space and the chances of finding a date to suit everyone would decrease exponentially, there is the much bigger problem of the group no longer being the safe intimate place it is. There would be no longer psychological room for everyone to express themselves as freely as before. The group dynamics would change for good and not in a positive way.

The natural thing to do would be to split the group into two. But nobody really wants that. We have become so close and so comfy and everyone's having such a great time together, which means of course that very little progress is made. But comfort zones are called that for a reason - it would be really uncomfortable to venture far afield beyond them.

Something needs to be done but I console myself with that little note, which sort of serves to symbolize that I am thinking about it. I don't want anyone to lose interest if they are randomly assigned to a new group they are no longer having fun in. I think this calls for a group meeting - everyone should be allowed a say in how they want this to progress. If I am the only one wanting to change then we'll continue as before.

BlackUnicorn

04-18-2011, 03:14 PM

All the rules other people seem to be having weird me out. 'You can't have sex with so and so, not for the time being, you can't kiss, no alone time, just threesomes, both are allowed one additional partner, always let me know if you are meeting up with someone, if you want to add another partner we need to discuss that...'

Not all of the above are rules, of course, guidelines maybe. People have those in place because of real issues. But I think having iron-clad rules set in place from the get go can really stop the situation from progressing beyond anything than weird power-games over who is having how much time with whom.

Maybe in poly time is the only thing left of which you can be legitimately jealous of? I don't mind getting involved with people who have relationship-specific rules/guidelines, but would balk at somebody trying to include me in them. Like the whole 'we can't date separately - you have to like/do/date/love both of us equally forever more'.

ray

04-19-2011, 08:44 PM

A few posts up, you said something that sparked my interest. Wondering if polyamory was a way to get around loneliness. I've wondered the same thing. And also if it relates to my feelings regarding how I missed out w/ family growing up and wanting to make up for lost time.

The rules are hard. And when there's a ceiling. Like, only get this attached. If you can't handle the places a relationship could likely go, then maybe you shouldn't open the door in the first place. It's like people want to experiment but they don't think about the poor souls that they use who have real feelings and end up getting crushed. Or when a spouse isn't okay with something but has no intention of trying to work through the issues so it just becomes a standstill, rather than a slow place.

Ah, the pitfalls of being a Unicorn. I guess, technically, I wasn't a unicorn since I wasn't involved with A but I feel like I want to avoid the married folk for a good long time.

BlackUnicorn

04-19-2011, 09:28 PM

Yes, I do think it has something to do with a fierce desire to belong, esp. with the more 'family-minded' poly folks. I sort of resonate with what Deborah Anapol wrote about how single and newly-out polys feel they must first find their primary to start a family with before starting to add members. And how you can go around that with choosing a family/couple to join instead.

It is tempting, and yet oh so hard because the idea of chosen families is still so new and outside of the mainstream to many people. Like you said, there is this ceiling of 'this close is how you can get, this is what we are comfortable with right now' that seems to be in place for so many people.'

I sometimes think if it were better for single polys who are dating from that 'family/this is a lifestyle choice for me' place to find secure not-necessarily-romantic family arrangements first and then start reaching out romantically from a secure base/foundation of their own.

BlackUnicorn

04-25-2011, 09:59 AM

...are tough cookies to date, I tell you.

When is a coffee date a coffee date, and when is it really a DATE, or even better, a make-out date? The secret to successful lesbian dating, of course, is that you never know until it's too late! Wham, you are in a relationship and talking about moving in together before you have even made up your mind on if she likes you or not. The trick of course is never to tell each other what you think, and just let your expectations bloom out of nowhere and wreak havoc on your emotional status, without saying a word. In the world of dyke drama, nothing is easier than to start dating somebody who doesn't realize they are dating you, and vice versa.

Well, it's not all gloom and doom in Dykelandia, but when a girl says that the more she is pursued, especially by men, the less interested she becomes, does that mean a) pursue me hard, right now; b) don't show any interest in me whatsoever and I might come running to you; c) I'm not at all interested, so don't bother; d) I'm totally interested but just need my time? Option e) any combination of the above, is a very real possibility, too.

So as not to appear like a lesbian stalker, I have only responded to her messages, and it is definitely now her turn. I have no problem doing the pursuing, but don't want to make her feel like we went out on a date and now she needs to make up her mind either way.

And in the When does attraction start? -thread I've read how people might need a LONG time to make sure if they like someone that way or not. Not doing things my way (i.e. hopping in bed together and figuring it out from there) doesn't make them bad, dysfunctional people, just different.

So far my successes in the world of lesbian dating owe everything to meeting girls through guys I already know. Bona fide lesbians politely ignore me, so I'm left with the bisexual crowd. Not that I mind at all.

magikman79

04-25-2011, 02:44 PM

TruckerPete

04-25-2011, 05:18 PM

Well, it's not all gloom and doom in Dykelandia, but when a girl says that the more she is pursued, especially by men, the less interested she becomes, does that mean a) pursue me hard, right now; b) don't show any interest in me whatsoever and I might come running to you; c) I'm not at all interested, so don't bother; d) I'm totally interested but just need my time? Option e) any combination of the above, is a very real possibility, too.

Okay, this made me giggle. ;)

BlackUnicorn

04-28-2011, 09:30 AM

or If I was really blind & Infatuated, Id just assume it meant "A" & take my chances.

Heartened by your post, I actually text-ed her and turns out she's been really busy but would love to hang out after school craziness is over!

After coming out to a circle of friends I've gotten to witness a lot of reactions, teary-eyed and really angry ones included. Astonishment is probably the common denominator between them. Also, an acquaintance recently confessed to a mutual friend that she finds me really scary :eek:. ME?!? The Church-going bunny lady? Who works with ID folks and loves children and everything which includes fluff? Granted, she thought that Christian women would at least not flaunt it if they fall somewhat short of the one man-one woman-for life ideal. Good luck she didn't tell it to my face - spared her from hearing a lecture on how 'one man-many women-until the hubs finds someone hotter' is really the Biblical ideal of marriage, and I am carrying my weight to return as from our single-standard-monogamy ways, adopted from the Pagans, to our Biblical Hebrew roots.

Anyways - I actually started to wonder how, approaching our mid-twenties, our circle of friends is starting to split into two. There are folks who have found their One and Only and are getting hitched, and then there are those of us who either have fairly recently ended things with their One and Only Turned Not So and are playing the field with no serious intent, or have a full-time squeeze but who balk at the M word. I wonder how well the two factions end up being able to relate. The one thing I don't want is to alienate my non-poly friends, but I fear some of them might want to distance themselves from me - after all, I could be after their boyfriends/hubbies for all they know!

BlackUnicorn

05-01-2011, 08:11 PM

With poly, a lot of people seem to be a bit overworked by the whole definitions game. What to call myself. What to call our relationship. When is a relationship a relationship.

I'm all right with others getting in the game. What saddens me a little is the extra stress it causes my SOs when they try to figure whether to call me a girlfriend or whatnot. What if in a couple one wants to progress really fast and the other is just reeling with the idea of having A gf, not still quite processing having a SHARED gf?

I can be the girlfriend, the family friend, the significant other, what have you. It really makes no difference to me. But I do get that for some people, the language is the thinking. To be called a 'girlfriend' implies a whole different set of expectations and acknowledgements than a 'friend', no matter how dear, or a 'co-parent', and certainly a different set than a 'lover'.

Words have power, but only so much as we allow them. In NRE, some people want to tell the world about their new love, bring her to family functions and buy a massive house together. And others are more comfy with the 'keep it secret, keep it safe' policy - they delight in having something that is only meant for them, delight in having awesome secrets as it were. Like having discovered your own private beach, off the beaten path, which no one else seems to know about.

Which is all fine by me, but if the partners are not on the same page with this, stress and the definitions game ensues.

magikman79

05-01-2011, 09:03 PM

We have some issues with the definition game from time to time as well

BlackUnicorn

05-09-2011, 07:45 PM

A person very near and dear to me expressed their disappointment over my chosen way of life. They said how they had always thought I shared their family values and high moral standards, which include respect for monogamy. I asked if they truly thought monogamy is the cornerstone of both family values and morality, and they said, to a large degree, yes.

I asked them if it was better then to cheat on one's partner on the sly. They asked back if I thought it was better to kill somebody with a gun or with a knife. I didn't get the comparison. Cheating is wrong; polyamory is consensual non-monogamy, and if everyone wants it, moreover seeks it out, I can't really understand how that could be a priori unethical. If someone who could be poly cheats it is not a failure of polyamory, not even necessarily of monogamy as a very valid and for some people totally workable life choice; it is failure of visibility, education and support for people to come to terms with who they are and to learn that there are options other than misery and mayhem for them (and no, I don't want to convert anyone, or think it is our duty to convert others to poly - I just think everyone who is able to be out should be, just like I think GLBT and other members of alt sex cultures should be as out as possible).

So the conversation ended with them saying 'I don't want to hear anything that is related to this sickness of yours. I am only able to tolerate you in my vicinity if I pretend that it doesn't exist'. Well, gee, if that is not a sure way to invite an ongoing poly-monologue from me I don't know what is. The only way to normalize this 'sickness' of mine, to show that people who are happy and sane can and do enjoy this, is to keep on talking about it.

magikman79

05-09-2011, 09:24 PM

TruckerPete

05-10-2011, 01:24 AM

Sickness? Ouch. Sorry to hear that ... :mad:

rory

05-10-2011, 08:25 PM

That's awful. I hope you can knock some sense into them. :( Don't let it get to you too much!

Minxxa

05-11-2011, 03:41 PM

Sorry about your friend. I've lost a lot of friends over the years for many reasons-- but I finally at some point realized that they weren't really my friends. They were people that I was friendly with... until something silly came up and the "friendship" fell apart. Several years ago I was sick for a while and ended up being very hermity for a while. When I came back out of it, the lone surviving friends are the ones I've kept. And I only have a few of those. The rest I consider acquaintances whom I've shared some life experiences with. I appreciate them for that, but it's surface. And I've become okay with that because while I will sometimes share other parts of my life with people, I mostly don't bother unless they are one of my REAL friends-- the ones that know everything about me and still accept and support me and vice versa.

Then again, I'm old-er. :) And my personal life lesson was that it was better to have just a few GREAT, REAL friends, than a lot of "so called" friends who bring drama to your life.

But that's me. :) It is sad when people can't accept that their friends have different views of life. Especially the judgment that apparently you're no longer on the same "moral" standing. My guess is that you're a whole lot more honest with yourself and others than she is... interesting...

BlackUnicorn

05-12-2011, 10:19 AM

Thank you for your kind words of encouragement! I'm not really that thrown off course, just surprised more than anything else.

A funny thing just happened. I had thought of how to communicate in as nice a way as possible to an on/off-fuck buddy that the sex really wasn't doing anything for me lately. We were not connected, as the saying goes, and it felt like going through the motions. I decided to give it a shot nevertheless, wondering that maybe I could take responsibility of my own good times and put in a little more effort. Well, they cancelled, because sex with people they are not partnered to just isn't doing anything for them anymore :D!

So once again, we have more evidence indicating that people who gravitate towards poly are not in it just so that they have a permission to fuck everything that moves, at least not in the long run.

Minxxa

05-12-2011, 03:52 PM

Yeah... that's me too. The only people I end up attracted to are friends, or friends of friends and most often they are not available, so there you have it.

It used to bug me a bit, because hubs can meet someone and find something they have that attracts them and ignore all of the stuff that doesn't really and still have fun. But I think his fun comes more from being able to make someone really enjoy themselves-- not as much the other way around, you know? Not sure, but one thing I've learned is that he has his way of being and I have mine and they're both OK. I don't need to force him to be different and I don't need to be different. That part has taken a while to figure out, but it's kind of nice.

Frankly, If I'm not with someone I truly dig, I'd rather be reading a book or puttering around the house. :)

BlackUnicorn

05-13-2011, 02:45 PM

But I think his fun comes more from being able to make someone really enjoy themselves-- not as much the other way around, you know?

I have a clear gender preference in this, and have a theory as to why it is. With men, I have no problem with being a demanding sack of potatoes with her feet up in the air saying 'Come do me now'. A good friend once said that she really doesn't bother about male orgasms, because a) guys pretty much come anyway (not true, as I've later discovered, but I think I migh actually attract over-achiever males :D) and b) most of them seem to get their fun out of watching the girl have hers.

Whereas with girls, I'll bend over backwards and twice over to give them the best kicks they can have, and find myself sort of feeding from their good energies, so that I can be totally sexually satisfied with nobody having touched my genitals at all :eek:. This is probably part weird residual gender role programming and part testament to the fact that there are a lot fewer multiorgastic males than there are multiorgastic females, but anyways, there you have it.

Frankly, If I'm not with someone I truly dig, I'd rather be reading a book or puttering around the house. :)

I couldn't agree more! Good yoga/cleaning session totally beats bad sex every time. I recently bought scrubbing agent for the bathroom at the Sweets residence, and have been aching all over to get to vacuum at VanillaIce's place. A really good scrubbing session is a huge release for me, and now I won't write about this any more because I realize there are probably anonymous peer support groups for people like me and I should really seek one out :D.

Minxxa

05-13-2011, 02:49 PM

LOL, I do love the cleaning too! :)

I think I just have never had much luck with having decent sex with a random hookup. The only time a "one night stand" was mind blowing was with my now-husband! :D

ray

05-13-2011, 05:03 PM

Amen to that. I've never even had sex and have decided that I don't want to just do it with anyone, I want to wait until it feels right and the feelings are really there. Yoga is the best! Not so much on the cleaning. That tends to feel more like torture for me. ;)

BlackUnicorn

06-05-2011, 08:07 AM

Take a hypothetic world where you are involved with A and B. A and B are also a couple. Enter C. You and C are a couple. Now, A and C express interest in each other. Imagine that in this hypothetical world, A and C also become involved on a couplish basis. What do you call that, like honestly? A triad? A quad?

My objections to using a triad, in that there would be two parallel triads in this case, is that the participants in you-A-C don't view themselves as having one relationship you-A-C in addition to having three parallel relationships you-A, you-C and A-C. So the old adage of 'there is not one, nor three, but FOUR relationships in any triad' would not be applicable. So, whereas the relationship A-B-you is a triad, the new situation would just be you-C and A-C.

My objections to using a quad is that this is not really a case of two couples becoming involved with each other, but we have, from the point of view of A, a triad and a vee (A being the hinge of B and C); from the POV of C, two parallel, independent relationships with you and A; and from the POV of you in this hypothetical situation, a tangle.

I'm toying with the idea of calling it a diamond.

(And if you think that the 'hypothetical you' in this situation is actually me and this is a real-life situation I am actually having, then you just haven't played enough of 'what if' :D.)

Ariakas

06-05-2011, 01:42 PM

I have to admit you have confused me.

oh wait.. hang on.. you aren't A? you've removed yourself from the lettering?...

Wow.. ok now I get it..

Two parallel V's or two parallel triads.. hell maybe a W.. or M.. or soemthing. At some point there is no simple labelling..

*runs to get coffee* ok.. shouldn't be trying to figure out relationship quadratic equations without caffeine.

BlackUnicorn

06-05-2011, 01:59 PM

Woot, how did you figure out I was talking about myself while I tried to be very theoretical to avoid suspicions that this might be based on my life :eek:!

No, seriously, Mr. Sweets and VanillaIce are planning to go on a 'date' next week (by date we mean replenish their energies with food prior to a night of physically demanding horizontal mambo). Mr. Sweets, Windflower and I are a triad. I have a couple-relation with Vanilla. Thinking ahead of myself as I'm wont to do, if the thing between Mr. and Vanilla evolves into something more, will it mean I am now involved in two triads (an hourglass figure from my relationship)? Or do triads by definition require hanging out in and out of bed in threes?

I am trying to quit caffeine :(.

Ariakas

06-05-2011, 02:05 PM

Woot, how did you figure out I was talking about myself while I tried to be very theoretical to avoid suspicions that this might be based on my life :eek:!

I guess I always assume (a) is the person speaking, thats more where my confusion came from :p

No, seriously, Mr. Sweets and VanillaIce are planning to go on a 'date' next week (by date we mean replenish their energies with food prior to a night of physically demanding horizontal mambo). Mr. Sweets, Windflower and I are a triad. I have a couple-relation with Vanilla. Thinking ahead of myself as I'm wont to do, if the thing between Mr. and Vanilla evolves into something more, will it mean I am now involved in two triads (an hourglass figure from my relationship)? Or do triads by definition require hanging out in and out of bed in threes?

Depends on how you define a triad. Believing a sexual relationship finishes the romantic relationship, I would never call a triad anything but a sexual & romantic relationship between all 3. That would be a V.

Some people do have "loving triads" that don't include sex.

So I guess thats really your call. haha

I am trying to quit caffeine :(.

I tried once.. many moons ago. Its not worth the pain. I have quite so many other things, the addiction gods kind suck it in regards to caffeine.. hahaha

BlackUnicorn

06-05-2011, 02:19 PM

I just read 'The Monstrous Regiment' by Terry Pratchett. One character was a vampire who had decided to quit on blood and exchange it for a taste of coffee instead. Needless to say he got a bit...antsy when caffeine wasn't provided.

I'm with you on the 'need to cater to some addictions' thing. I'm trying to tell myself this isn't as bad as being addicted to food or nicotine or ethanol or other drugs while spewing out my breakfast on the bus stop on my way to work in the morning.

Ariakas

06-05-2011, 02:29 PM

Well thats quite a site haha.. but I can't disagree with the visualization. :D.. I enjoy coffee, the taste, smell and the effects haha.

Haven't heard the name terry pratchet in years. I can't remember what I have read of his. I googled his books and couldn't find anything in there that I recognized.. seems soo familiar. Driving me nuts haha

TruckerPete

06-05-2011, 03:23 PM

What do you call that, like honestly? A triad? A quad?

How about a cluster fuck? Not because it's a screw up, but because it's a cluster of people fucking? :p

Ariakas

06-05-2011, 03:25 PM

How about a cluster fuck? Not because it's a screw up, but because it's a cluster of people fucking? :p

HA!

nycindie

06-06-2011, 01:01 AM

. . . you are involved with A and B. A and B are also a couple. Enter C. You and C are a couple. Now, A and C express interest in each other. Imagine that . . . A and C also become involved on a couplish basis.

. . . you-A-C don't view themselves as having one relationship you-A-C in addition to having three parallel relationships you-A, you-C and A-C. So the old adage of 'there is not one, nor three, but FOUR relationships in any triad' would not be applicable. So, whereas the relationship A-B-you is a triad, the new situation would just be you-C and A-C.

. . . will it mean I am now involved in two triads (an hourglass figure from my relationship)? Or do triads by definition require hanging out in and out of bed in threes?

http://forum.volition.com/images/icon_smile_crazy.gifhttp://forum.volition.com/images/icon_smile_confused.gifhttp://forum.volition.com/images/icon_smile_chat2.gifhttp://forum.volition.com/images/icon_smile_spin.gifhttp://forum.volition.com/images/icon_smile_grouphug.gifhttp://forum.volition.com/images/icon_smile_chat1.gifhttp://forum.volition.com/images/icon_smile_cheers.gifhttp://forum.volition.com/images/icon_smile_confused.gif
Huh??? http://forum.volition.com/images/icon_smile_therethere.gif

ray

06-07-2011, 01:06 AM

Maybe it could be a figure eight?

BlackUnicorn

06-08-2011, 12:39 PM

Ooh, I like the figure eight idea! Especially since the number is very important for me, and signals eternity and what not.

Also, a cluster, or an intimate network, might be good. Ah, the date is tonight, we shall see how goes.

This is not the first time I'm frustrated that I can't actually draw up charts with these editing tools :(.

Off-topic now: Today at work, there was the, perhaps inevitable, Big Lesbian Discussion. More specifically, how horrible it is that just because a woman advertises on Facebook that she is in a relationship with a woman, people think that she could actually be SERIOUS?!? Come on, the whole idea is ludicrous. To think that even close friends might start suspecting you are a *lesbian* (the last word comes out in a hushed voice, followed by a lot of giggles).

Yeah, horrible indeed. I just wasn't in the mood to start lecturing them on how a woman being in a relationship with another woman does not by definition make her a lesbian, and how situational bisexuality is probably a lot more common than people assume. Let them have their giggles.

It's weird in a way. The more time you spend around weird people being weird and doing weird stuff, the weirder 'normal people' start to sound.

I mean, honestly. Is sexual orientation really that good of a joke to the majority of the population? When I told my first bf that my brother was gay, he insisted that it was funny. 'No it isn't'. 'Come on, it's a little funny'. :confused: After six years, still failing to see the funny.

Minxxa

06-08-2011, 02:39 PM

It's weird in a way. The more time you spend around weird people being weird and doing weird stuff, the weirder 'normal people' start to sound.

This times 10,000.

The funny part is that they don't realize they sound wierd-- because they think they are normal, or more honestly they think there is such a thing as normal.

I was reading something yesterday that said basically that the less people know or learn, the more they think they know a lot. People who learn a lot basically then realize how much is out there that they don't know. Which is why the first group of people tend to be arrogant and cocky and think they are smarter than they are, while the second group of people tend to be more humble or at least know they don't know all that much. It's called the Dunning-Kruger Effect.

TruckerPete

06-08-2011, 05:53 PM

It's weird in a way. The more time you spend around weird people being weird and doing weird stuff, the weirder 'normal people' start to sound.

Oh yes. THIS.

BlackUnicorn

06-15-2011, 12:23 PM

Two major life stressors are gone (one work, the other studies-related), and I'm starting my holiday on Fri! Yay!

It continues to amaze me how relationships develop at such different paces, even when you try your best to invest equal amounts of time and attention to them. But people are just different, even and sometimes especially so if they are married to each other. How you can be totally comfy with one and still all fluttery and crushed by insecurity with the other?

I've been wondering why it seems as if FMF triads so frequently break into FMF vees. I wonder if some of it has to do with remaining socialization of 'putting men and their needs first', and thus neglecting the FF relationships in the triad? Is there such a small pool of bi poly women interested in triads that the chances of finding two compatible women who would be interested in one another are miniscule? If it's a first FF relationship AND first polyship, maybe there is just too little direction and social support and too big of a freak-out factor involved? Maybe women more often than men are just indirect communicators who tend to tiptoe around the real issues and let resentment build and gradually create distance between the FF pair?

BlackUnicorn

06-19-2011, 08:41 PM

So, connexions in where I now find myself are BAD. Like really bad. But not as bad as in that Third World country Sweetheart wages war in. We haven't had a proper conversation in a LONG TIME. Whenever we catch each other on Skype, he drops off every so often. It is frustrating, to know he is out there and not able to communicate. He can read my e-mail but can't stay on long enough to write any of his own.

He regrets taking his new job, and for my own selfish reasons, I tend to silently agree. At least where he was stationed before, we were able to talk.

Also, I had a brief brush with jealousy the other day! I was scheduled to spend some time with Flattie but got off work early and went home earlier than we had agreed on. So Flattie was there with her OSO, which is cool - I had showed up earlier than I said I would, so I decided to take a nap and let them have some peace and quiet.

So the nap was longish. When I woke up, he was still there, and I heard them laughing in the other room and just generally having a good time. Combined with the nagging fear I've had recently of neglecting Flattie, I felt a tinge of it! Jealousy. Fear of losing someone I hold dear to another person, so that they would no longer like me as much as I like them.

So I took my time, arranged my room for a bit and waited till he was gone. And we talked about it with Flattie. She was sad that I had to feel that way and assured me that if ever the two of them want to be alone, they will go outside or into her room or whatever, and that I am always welcome to join them if they are just hanging out. Her therapist had asked her a while aback if we never get jealous of each other, her OSO and I, to which Flattie had proudly proclaimed that no, they don't do that :D.

I really don't want to impose on them. When they are together, she sits in his lap and entwines her fingers with his. Not the best 'come hang out with us' body language going on there, I might say. On the other hand, his wife said to Flattie once that me and Flattie are such a self-sustained unit that there really isn't room for anyone to come in between. So maybe this is a healthy phase in our relationship, where we both take a little space and time to make other connections also. I do look forward to moving back in with her, though.

Mum commented that if I want to work for the government at some point later, I might want to avoid being seen at Pride. 'Marching might win you justice but it sure as hell ain't gonna win you any jobs'. I might not be that interested in a job where I can't be seen at Pride.

She also asked if we lesbians have a sign by which we may know each other. A secret handshake or some such. I wish! Also, a secret poly codeword would come really handy sometimes.

ray

06-23-2011, 06:11 PM

I've never had a LDR and they sound pretty challenging, especially when your communication gets cut off. :( That sounds pretty rough. How long is he going to be stationed there?

I had some of the same anxieties when it came to "interrupting" my ex and his wife. I always felt super awkward initiating physical contact when they were doing anything. Especially when he would sit on the other end of the couch and she would be in the middle. I hated that! She and I were never physically close, so it was pretty much a guarantee that I wouldn't get to cuddle. Of course, I was too silly to ask for it to change, but you know. It sounds like you've got the lines of communication open to fix/tweak things. :)

BlackUnicorn

06-24-2011, 07:37 PM

How long is he going to be stationed there?

Till 2014 maybe :confused:? Honestly, he is a military man, been in the army since he was 17, already sort of retired and then re-enlisted because he missed the life. They'll be sending him off to Libya or who knows, Somalia next. Hey, at least I get to travel into far away places!

The hardest part is not knowing, if he doesn't answer, if he is just unable to connect, busy, hurt, dead or lost in action :(.

TruckerPete

06-24-2011, 07:49 PM

the hardest part is not knowing, if he doesn't answer, if he is just unable to connect, busy, hurt, dead or lost in action :(.

*hug*

BlackUnicorn

06-29-2011, 11:51 AM

Thank you for the hug.

I have decided to become fluid-bonded with Moonlight, and that scares me a bit. No, make that a lot.

Of course, this is all pretty much weeping over spilled milk, since I am already pretty fluidy with Windy and Vanilla. But they are girls (I know, I know, that doesn't necessarily change anything, but the risks are pretty low). And this will double-bond me with both. For Windy, that probably isn't such a great problem, since now she is content with two partners as it is. But Vanilla has a few FWBs and I know that at least with one of them, they are not always protected.

This bothers me a bit, since if Vanilla and Moonlight also bond, I, Windy and ML will all be exposed to much greater risk. The problem is that Vanilla trusts her friends while I don't. So how to insist on her either a) not bonding with ML or b) always having protected sex outside our circle without sending the message 'Hun, I love you but I don't trust your judgement when it comes to people'?

nycindie

06-30-2011, 12:17 AM

If you are fluid bonded with Vanilla and she has unprotected sex with someone else, then the bond has been broken. You are no longer fluid-bonded. :(

If any kind of agreement or situation has you feeling uncomfortable, don't go along with it. It doesn't matter if someone's feelings are hurt; they need to accept the consequences of their actions.

TruckerPete

06-30-2011, 12:50 AM

I am already pretty fluidy with Windy and Vanilla [...] But Vanilla has a few FWBs and I know that at least with one of them, they are not always protected.

If you are fluid bonded with Vanilla and she has unprotected sex with someone else, then the bond has been broken. You are no longer fluid-bonded. :(

I missed this the first time around! Yes, you are already having unsafe sex via Vanilla's FWBs.

If you really want to bond with ML, you insist that ML and Vanilla have safer sex, and you also start having safer sex with her.

Regardless, it sounds like you should be having safer sex with Vanilla, given her unprotected sex with at least one FWB. (Honestly, if you're "fluidy" with her, why don't you already know how many people she's having unprotected sex with?? :confused:)

BlackUnicorn

06-30-2011, 07:23 AM

If you are fluid bonded with Vanilla and she has unprotected sex with someone else, then the bond has been broken. You are no longer fluid-bonded. :(

Thanks for pointing that out.

(Honestly, if you're "fluidy" with her, why don't you already know how many people she's having unprotected sex with?? :confused:)

Possible reasons? Looming stupidity and massive ignorance, and the unspoken assumption that people always use condoms with their FWBs. Well, at least now I asked. And the number is two.

There's lots of information out there, but the overwhelming majority of it is geared to heterosexual monogamous couples.

So, condoms shall be the order of the day for the forseeable future with ML. And regular check-ups for me. And a talk with Windy. :(

TruckerPete

06-30-2011, 11:21 AM

Ah, I'm sorry, BU. But at least you know now, and hopefully before Something Awful happened.

BlackUnicorn

07-04-2011, 12:29 PM

Mum is worried about my logistics lately. Just the other day, she made A Serious Proposal;

"What if you stayed at home during week nights and only spent the weekend with those people of yours, one night with Vanilla and one night with the Sweets? I mean, even you can't need THAT much sex all the time."

:D:D:D Mum, you crack me up. :D:D:D

(I did note that sex was a very small slice of our time together, which otherwise is pretty consumed by kids and the telly.)

I had to help mum move during the Pride weekend :(, but Vanilla was sweet enough to bring back a badge for me. It is my favourite colour of all time (pink) with the words "Happily Poly" on it. I love it!

BlackUnicorn

07-07-2011, 08:28 AM

So we are getting ready to tuck ourselves in with Vanilla, and she's on her laptop, and suddenly goes, "Wow, come look at this". So I go, and she's on OKC, and viewing the profile of my unofficial online crush that has lasted for a full year. Lo and behold! my crush is looking for some female company, on a FWB/NSA basis.

"I know her!" I go, "I've been dying to get it on with her! How did you find her?". Vanilla explains that OKC alerts her when there are new high matches on her area, and is gritting her teeth because her profile isn't really up-to-date and was created mainly for stalking-purposes. "I'll message her!" I go, and so I do, and we have a date coming up next week.

So last night, Vanilla says, again as we are going to bed, how she sometimes gets upset and obsessed over the smallest little details and for no reason whatsoever. I ask what's bothering her. "Well, the thing is - I found her, I thought she was really interesting, and I wanted to get to know her. And all of a sudden you have a date coming up with her!".

I had unwittingly broken the number one rule of open relationship online dating; that of "Finders keepers!". Vanilla said it was stupid because she probably wouldn't have the energy to message her anyway, but I said I'll help her update her profile and send the New Girl a nice message. There is still the potential for jealousy if she is only interested in one of us, but I think that's a risk worth taking.

I wonder if part of it is that I seemingly click with tons of people and she is somewhat shy and needs prodding to get out there and meet new people. She said that she is worried if I start crushing massively on this New Girl, because five ongoing relationships for one person just sounds too much. I said that's unlikely to happen, if both agree to keep things casual and friendly. Vanilla however never has been able to control her emotions like that.

I assured her that she is my primary and I'd never do anything to endanger my relationship with her. I have exactly one night per week unspoken for and I am not going to bulge on the time I've committed to spend with the Sweets and Vanilla to make way for any new relationship. Although Moonlight already told me that he feels secure enough in our relationship that if I fall for this new girl he can totally see me less often, once in two weeks or so, in order for me to have time for both NRE with the new girl and reassuring couple's time with Vanilla, because he is sweet like that. It felt good to hear although I am not going to start seeing them less often and I don't even know if there is any chemistry between me and the new girl.

I hope I can one day be as good and giving in being a metamour as ML and Windy already are.

BlackUnicorn

07-13-2011, 01:14 PM

I was initially very hesitant about becoming involved with a couple with children. Now, I wouldn't change it for the world.

I've tried not to write so much about the kids, to respect their privacy and all. But right now I can't just help myself.

Cupcake, son to Moonlight and Windy, is almost four and a real darling. I was resting my back the other day in the bedroom and he came in, carrying my water bottle and mobile. "I brought you water if you're thirsty and also your phone. I'll put it here next to the bed so you can answer if somebody calls". Guess kids are good at picking up which things adults hold most precious, carrying them from room to room :). He also insists on having a water bottle of his own and wants to take pictures of his feet with my phone :confused:.

On the same day he suggested to Moonlight that they should go out "to give Mum and Blackie some peace and quiet" :D. The boy sure loves his outings.

While I was quoting something with the line "But I really do love you", he answered, not understanding the context, with a swift "I love you too. Cupcake is your friend too". I nearly cried :o. He has asked me when can he visit the place I share with Flattie. That is something I have really wanted to do for a while now, it's just that I would like to wait till he is old enough to spend a few hours apart from his parents - maybe next autumn?

He always asks me if I am going to be there in the morning when he wakes up. And the last time I told "No, I will go to stay at Vanilla's place", he went "I want you to live here with us". :( I tried to very carefully explain that I can't now, but maybe in a few years I will at least live close by. Another reminder of how children's hearts and lives are not something to be trifled with. I truly believe that if you involve yourself with them, you get involved for good.

In a way, I love the Sweets children even more intensely than their parents. There is none of the insecurity and second-guessing; kids simply pick up your heart and carry it around in their pockets, like they do with all their valuable things.

BlackUnicorn

07-26-2011, 08:26 AM

So I bet you can usually tell when a relationship is ending or at least taking a new shape by the smell of things getting stale. No spontaneous displays of affection, or it's all one-sided; little to no contact-seeking, either face-to-face or electronic; no sex to speak of; little to no evident interest in getting together one-on-one. So it's all there to see but you make yourself believe it's alright, just a phase, things are just progressing slowly blah blah. Fuck that shit. She's just not that into you.

And having my new and shiny triad turn into a vee in what - two months or less? - sucks royally. Somehow, no matter how much I believed I could make the exception to the rule of "the vast majority of new FMF triads turn into vees with the male as the hinge", I've become just another poly statistic. Fuck that shit.

Evidently, the population of bipoly women interested in triads is so small that the chances of finding someone to click with on a triad basis are miniscule. I wonder if there was so much expectation of things working out between me and Windy so we could all achieve the Perfect Poly Dream (TM) that she wanted to feel good about me, and that just didn't come naturally. And that's why things just increased in awkwardness. Note to self; when something feels weird, chances are it is.

It feels petty to bitch and moan about the loss of one relationship (or nonship, false starter, whattheever) when you have two healthy loving relationships already. But people are not interchangeable.

God strike me dead if I ever, however briefly, entertain the idea of dating another couple ever again. Better to get burned early and badly enough to stay the hell away. Fuckfuckfucketyfuck.

Okay, phew. A good rant. Now I want to get couple days off, spend some quality time with Vanilla during the weekend, have a nice date with the New Girl on Friday, talk to Flattie. Mum promised to give me some heart-ache therapy today, which will most likely involve television and massive amounts of chocolate.

Oh yes, almost forgot; Flattie's changing towns, and we are moving in together with Vanilla :D. Hooray!

rory

07-26-2011, 09:37 AM

Sorry to hear about the break-up. :( It's pretty obvious that the hurt is no less because you still have other partners, that's like assuming a friendship ending wouldn't hurt if you still have other friends.

Hopefully chocolate helps (it usually does). And good luck with living together with Vanilla, that's got to be exiting. :)

BlackUnicorn

07-26-2011, 12:11 PM

And good luck with living together with Vanilla, that's got to be exiting. :)

It is! The first time I've lived with a romantic partner ever.

The only potential problem right now is that I fear for our sex life. Or, I need to commit to making it happen even when we are living together and the opportunity is almost always there. Vanilla has started a new prescription of painkillers that are affecting her libido, making her not exactly sluggish but not her usual self either. They are definitely affecting her ability to orgasm :(.

She's having a date tonight with a girl she met at a bar. They made out quite heavily and I left for Vanilla's place alone, fully expecting to spend the night with her cat, just the two of us. This girl's friend was so heavily intoxicated that she had to be taken home and Vanilla followed me only an hour after, interrupting our blissful slumber with Cat.

So there was an opportunity and interest, but now she was wondering whether she should just focus on conserving her energy for me, Moonlight and a long-time FWB of hers. Of course I'll not be complaining if it means more good coming my way and if it feels right for her, but I wonder whether the meds are taking something away from who she essentially is. On the other hand, this is something she has been pondering for a long time. She's effectively dropped one FB already, and sees very little of her ex-Dom. There is a friend of hers she wishes to establish more regular play relations with, but fears she just doesn't have the energy it requires :(.

Minxxa

07-26-2011, 01:26 PM

Bummer on the relationship, doll. :-/ Of course it hurts and sometimes I think it can be so hard to make a relationship work with one person, how much more difficult when it's two?

Neat on the living arrangements.

As to the pain meds... I went through a period of time a few years ago where I was having health issues. Not pain, but my endocrine system had a crash, and I had no energy at all. It was all I could do to go to work and come home. :-( It did affect my sex drive, but I still enjoyed it-- as long as hubs initiated, cuz I was usually too tired!

It can be tough to deal with, but talking about it helped me. I needed him to know it wasn't him, and that I was working on getting better and that it was temporary. Also, for him to know that just because I wasn't initiating it, didn't mean I didn't mentally WANT it and enjoy it. At that point I was having trouble initiating a shower, let alone anything that took more energy!!

Has she spoken to her doctor about how the meds are affecting her sex drive? With all medications sometimes you need to juggle them to find the one that works with the least amount of side effects. There may be another one suitable that doesn't have the sexual side effects (although the pain itself can affect libido for sure, it's the difficulty with orgasming that maybe could be eliminated).

Just some thoughts...

BlackUnicorn

07-27-2011, 11:30 AM

...sometimes I think it can be so hard to make a relationship work with one person, how much more difficult when it's two?

My Mum's words exactly.

...It did affect my sex drive, but I still enjoyed it-- as long as hubs initiated, cuz I was usually too tired!

Also, for him to know that just because I wasn't initiating it, didn't mean I didn't mentally WANT it and enjoy it. At that point I was having trouble initiating a shower, let alone anything that took more energy!!

This is so important to hear, because I don't mind the initiating, it's the nagging fear that my initiatives might not be welcome that's holding me back right now, although I've been assured that if she's really not in the mood (i.e. so tired she is about to pass out/in considerable pain), she will say so.

...Has she spoken to her doctor about how the meds are affecting her sex drive?

No, that's a good idea, thanks!

Recently I've pondered what exactly constitutes a relationship for me. I have a relationship of some sort with every person I know, but exactly how can I tell if I'm IN a relationship with someone?

I've come up with the following three criteria:

1) I meet them at regular intervals
2) There are mutually acknowledged loving feelings
3) Sex happens regularly

A relationship can have 1 and 3, or just 2 or 1, but all three need to be there for me to consider it a relationship I am in, on a girlfriend/partner basis.

This has a vague bearing on something I've been thinking a lot in connection to polyamory; the dichotomy between organic and structured relationships.

In structured relationships, to oversimplify a complicated issue, form comes before content. Examples of people seeking structured relationships could be a couple looking for another couple to swing with, a couple looking for an unicorn of their own, a single person looking to join an existing couple or form a triad family with two other singles, married people looking for a secondary, subs looking for Dom/mes, Dom/mes for subs, would-be-polygynous folks looking for a second wife/husband, bisexual women in an OPP relationship looking for NSA sex with other women etc. The list goes on and on with every imaginable variation of non-monogamy. The point is that people decide beforehand what kind of non-monogamous relationship they are looking for before they actually are in a relationship with more than one person. I think the classic example and the ultimate poly fantasy many have in mind is a poly-fi live-in FMF triad.

An organic relationship places content before form. People who prefer organic non-monogamy tend to focus on allowing a new connection to become whatever it will be. They may actively dislike labels like "primary/secondary" or in fact shy away from labelling themselves as polyamorous alltogether. They place value on connections with people and want to keep the people they've connected with in their lives in whatever capacity possible - even if an originally romantic attachment turns into a more platonic one or an NSA becomes a full-blown romantic relationship.

There are pros and cons to each. Having a clear structure in mind makes it easier to attract only people who are interested in a similar arrangement. However, the downside is that human emotions defy structure, and it may be hard to keep to the agreed-upon boundaries when feelings deepen and change. An organic approach probably ensures higher success rates in attracting possible mates, but may lead into people hanging on to unworkable and draining relationships if they are too reluctant to let anyone go, even if their partners have wildly different desires and expectations of their relationship.

I started out with a structured approach but have grown increasingly wary of it. It would be great to be able to compartmentalize your love life and have specific need slots that will be neatly filled with particular type of people and relationships. Bisexuals could have boy and girls slots, switches sub and dom slots, there would be slots for tertiaries, secondaries and primaries, one slot for family-building, another for rough sex, a third one for romantic thrills...

Ultimately, I want most things because I want them, not because I need them. Relationships most certainly fall within the first category.

rory

07-27-2011, 12:42 PM

I would now make a point about oversimplifying, but you already did it yourself. :D

I don't think I really fit into either category. I guess the first one is further away for me, since I don't put much emphasis on structure, as long as the people involved are compatible (to the extent necessary, romantic relationships obviously require more aspects than metamours).

But I'm not sure I fit the organic approach very neatly, either. I wouldn't say that I want to force a relationship into something, but I'm definitely not unattached to the outcome, either. I don't know if I'm well suited for any kind of "lighter" romantic relationships. At least thus far it has tended to be my experience that when I'm in I'm all in. You know, planning for marriage and that stuff... :o I feel that I don't really wish to start a relationship unless I can be all in. But, never say never, might be that at some point somebody comes along who will change that tendency, and with whom a more casual relationship feels right.

BlackUnicorn

07-28-2011, 08:57 AM

I don't know if I'm well suited for any kind of "lighter" romantic relationships. At least thus far it has tended to be my experience that when I'm in I'm all in. You know, planning for marriage and that stuff... :o I feel that I don't really wish to start a relationship unless I can be all in. But, never say never, might be that at some point somebody comes along who will change that tendency, and with whom a more casual relationship feels right.

We actually had a discussion about that with Vanilla last night. Lately we've been talking a lot, since we watch less tv (I'm too tired) and have less sex (she's too tired) than we used to :D.

She pondered that she might not really be a very good poly at all - like when she is with me, she does not feel the need for any other romantic relationships. Not that she would be opposed to one coming along, but as long as she gets her semi-regular doses of penis (I can't believe I wrote that, but there) and gets to play occasionally at parties, she is fulfilled. So for her, the relationship is more open than poly atm.

Which is cool by me, as long as I'm not holding her back from anything she wants to do. On the other hand, maybe I should just let her be a grown-up and make her own decisions regarding which things/people to prioritize in her life :).

rory

07-28-2011, 12:49 PM

The last suggestion sounds good. :p It might be something temporary, though, since she's more tired than usual.

I'm sort of thinking that my husband finding a girlfriend might be nice, since I'd like for him to experience some of the great things that can come with that. But, he doesn't seem to be anywhere near ready for that; either he needs time to process poly, or he might not be poly at all. Time will tell. So I'm doing the 'letting him be a grown-up and make his own decisions' thing, too. :D

Minxxa

07-28-2011, 03:14 PM

She pondered that she might not really be a very good poly at all - like when she is with me, she does not feel the need for any other romantic relationships. Not that she would be opposed to one coming along, but as long as she gets her semi-regular doses of penis (I can't believe I wrote that, but there) and gets to play occasionally at parties, she is fulfilled. So for her, the relationship is more open than poly atm.

Which is cool by me, as long as I'm not holding her back from anything she wants to do. On the other hand, maybe I should just let her be a grown-up and make her own decisions regarding which things/people to prioritize in her life :).

I'm kind of the same way, though I don't consider it not being a very good poly. :-)

For me I really don't get that romantic attraction for people that often. I have to really get to know them, and there ends up being some spark of something that hits me right. Someone can be attractive and nice, and I just don't have any romantic/sexual feelings for them at all.

In the past 11 years hubs and I have been together, I've had that feeling for maybe... 3 or 4 people? But none of them have been in a place where they could be open to a relationship. Either they were married and weren't poly or had a DA/DT policy (which I won't do), or there was something else going on, but regardless it just wasn't a possibility. So in that sense, the odds are I may or may not end up with another partner. I am open to that, but am fine if I don't.

Also, I am the same way in that as long as I'm getting regular doses of hubs, I'm happy with that. I also have two kids, a full time job and am going to grad school, and have friends I visit from time to time, so I don't have a lot of spare time right now! If the right person came along, I'd make it work. But I'm not out searching.

The only issue this brings up with US is that hubs meets people EVERYWHERE, and also connects with people in one way or another very very easily. Sometimes it feels very imbalanced, but it's because we are just very different in that regard.

I've learned to stop thinking of it as unfair, or imbalanced. It's just the way it is. Eventually (I have hopes!) I will meet someone who will fit me and it will be lovely. But until then I am just working on my stuff, getting happier with who I am, and enjoying what I have.

BlackUnicorn

08-01-2011, 01:31 PM

No, we are not getting preggers with Vanilla. Yet.

But we talked about it and have decided to begin her Dom-hunt in earnest. Qualities we are looking for;

1) No lifestylers and no gf seekers. No time, no energy, no interest.
2) Proximity. No time, no patience, no money for LDRs right now.
3) Experience. In Real Life.
4) Dependability. Returns calls, sticks to dates, keeps promises.
5) Predictability. No moodiness, same behaviour leads to same outcomes every time.
6) Doesn't need to resort to punishments. Punishing your sub for honest mistakes is a sign of weakness and not a healthy basis to build trust on.
7) Humility. Doesn't need to be always right, even when clearly wrong.
8) Male. Vanilla would welcome a Domme, but with me in her life she feels she only has the energy for one additional, more casual relationship, and that would have to cater both to her submissive and bisexual side.

I know going out with a shopping list for a relationship isn't generally a good idea, but once the D/s starts, it's going to be a serious mindfuck and objectivity can easily be thrown out of the window. With one bad experience already, Vanilla doesn't need any more bullies in her life.

While talking about this I tried to imagine she hitting it off with someone whom I strongly dislike or someone who clearly has no understanding of polyamory and what me being Vanilla's girlfriend means for everyone, i.e. no infringing upon our time, certainly no attempts at domming me etc. I don't know if I'm being naive when I want her both to have this and it NOT affect our relationship. I worry that once in subspace, she will become overly dependent on him and his approval and lose interest in me :(.

We also talked about how she has no interest in anything beyond bedroom D/s, and how both of us think that polyamory as a concept doesn't really mesh with lifestyle D/s. For her, lifestyling involves orgasm control and the works, and thus entertaining multiple relationships just becomes impossible. Ours is an equal vanilla life partnership, and she doens't want anything messing up with that. I'm happy.

On me front; date number 3 with the New Girl coming up! I'm excited - maybe there will be some kissing involved (my most common euphenism for sex, really - but I always think it will only be kissing, at least in the beginning, and then I'm suddenly naked and wondering what just happened :D)? I just disclosed my herpes status with her in a text, she hasn't answered back. If that turns out to be a dealbreaker then it shall; no use crying over spillt milk.

I've been chatting with this guy over OKC for a while now. He's probably going to visit my town sometime soon-ish, and we'll see if there's off-screen chemistry there. Next weekend it's SlutWalk and the last Pride of the season! We'll be staying over at Vanilla's playmates'. Things might evolve into sex or then not. I'm not feeling pressure either way really. Additionally, made preliminary plans with a couple over OKC to meat either all the four of us or just me and them or a combination thereof. They live in the same city with Vanilla's steady FWB, whose been working out and stressing over his fitness level ever since Vanilla announced we might be coming over for a visit, poor sod :D. Male performance pressure is something I think I'll never fully get. Vanilla's bragging has just made him a bit insecure, I fear. So I'm thinking of combining two (three?) flies to one stroke down South, maybe meeting the couple on Sat and FWB on Sun, or the other way round. Looks like a busy month or two ahead :cool:.

nycindie

08-02-2011, 01:46 AM

BlackUnicorn

08-02-2011, 07:23 AM

BU, I thought I remembered you saying, some time ago (perhaps not long after you joined here?), that you're not into BDSM at all. I thought you were quite adamant about that -- am I thinking of someone else? Or did you cross over to the Dark Side? ;)

Haha, join the Dark Side, they have better cookies too :p!

VanillaIce is a kinkster. I love her, want to make her happy. Even if it means going out of my comfort zone at times. In the meanwhile, I'm trying to sort out if there is something in BDSM I could identify with, what is something I'm comfortable with and what I'm not okay with. Tender boundary-exploration in-process.

I'm very oriented towards my partner's pleasure in general, and Vanilla's slightly worried that I'm doing things I'm not comfy with to make her happy. I think I'm reasonably aware of my boundaries. I've wondered if I'm trying to "Domme-up" in some unconscious bid to keep her all to myself and prevent her from seeking out others who could prove to be competition.

The long and short of it, however, is that she wants a bedroom D/s relationship, we don't want it to be OUR relationship, so the options are pretty few. Hence, the Dom-hunt!

BlackUnicorn

08-04-2011, 02:45 PM

So having fumbled considerably with this topic, I want to share (despite there being a separate thread for this) what I've learned so far about safer sex in a poly environ.

1) STDs can and do pass on through fellatio. So despite the weird sensations, condoms are a must before everyone is tested.

2) Herpes is the only STD that can pass on through cunninlingulus. Both herpes 1 and 2 can pass on this way.

3) About half the population around these parts is a carrier of one of the HPV viruses. Around four-fifths carry either herpes 1 or 2 virus or both.

4) There is no known cure for either the HPV virus or herpes. No testing is available for either unless they present in changes around the mouth/genitalia. So even if you hadn't had an episode of either, it's impossible to know for certain that you are not a carrier. Episodes of herpes 1 in particular can be very mild and pass unnoticed. Also, both are infectious even while dormant.

5) Condoms/dental dams don't protect against herpes 100%. If you have sex with someone whose had an episode of genital herpes in the past, it's imperative that you inform any and all future partners of your exposure so they can make informed choices.

6) The efficiency of condoms on sex toys and latex gloves worn during fingering in preventing HPV transmission have not been studied. I imagine my future dates will be reasonably safe if we both maintain a rigorous programme of hand hygiene/use gloves on each other. Anyone know if HPV can transmit during oral? I've only read it can pass on via tribbing and fingering.

These are the two links I've found really useful;

San Franciso City Clinic's STD Risk Chart based on type of sexual activity:
http://www.sfcityclinic.org/stdbasics/stdchart.asp

LesbianSTD.com, an University of Washington maintained site that focuses exclusively on women who have sex with other women:
http://depts.washington.edu/wswstd/

opalescent

08-04-2011, 03:19 PM

Most helpful BlackUnicorn! Thank you.

Hannahfluke

08-04-2011, 05:34 PM

Actually, there is a test for Herpes, regardless of if you are presenting symptoms or not. Last time I got tested (in May) they did a test for antibodies for both HSV 1 and HSV 2. I didn't have a cold sore at the time and it still came back correctly for HSV 1. I was negative for HSV 2 (HSV 1 antibodies tend to help protect against being infected with HSV 2. It's not a 100% though so you shouldn't count on it). So they have developed a test that doesn't require an outbreak. It was $50 for that test through the government health clinic but I wanted a full work up this time so it was worth it.

TruckerPete

08-04-2011, 06:51 PM

This is one site that has helped me tremendously with figuring out herpes: http://www.herpes-coldsores.com/herpes_simplex_1_and_2.htm

I am one of those lucky people that contracted HSV 1 from oral sex. *sigh*

nycindie

08-04-2011, 06:53 PM

There already are some pretty long threads about STDs, with great information in them. Here are two of them:

HPV - Shouldn't we talk about it? (http://www.polyamory.com/forum/showthread.php?p=55244)

Safe Sex - Standards, Practices, Information & Resources (http://www.polyamory.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1190)

BlackUnicorn

08-05-2011, 08:19 AM

So they have developed a test that doesn't require an outbreak.

I know about the antibody test :(, but up here it is not available through general health care. I don't know about the private clinics. It seems the gov has pretty much given up on herpes and HPV, focusing instead on gonorrhea and chlamydia which can cause infertility and thus are vital in the fight to promote national interests and high natality :rolleyes:.

I am one of those lucky people that contracted HSV 1 from oral sex. *sigh*

Yep, Vanilla managed to score that too. Her partner's comments? "Well I did wonder why my tongue felt sore, but didn't think much of it".

HPV - Shouldn't we talk about it? (http://www.polyamory.com/forum/showthread.php?p=55244)

Thanks, will try to dive into that with some depth later. But it seems that there is too little definite information on how HPV contracts that it's pretty hard to protect against :(.

TruckerPete

08-05-2011, 11:31 AM

Yep, Vanilla managed to score that too. Her partner's comments? "Well I did wonder why my tongue felt sore, but didn't think much of it".

Ugh. That sounds familiar. I noticed a sore starting the next morning on this guy's mouth, and I asked if it was a cold sore. He said yes, and I asked why the hell he went down on me! His response? "Oh, it's fine."

Um, no. It wasn't then, before I knew I'd contracted it, and it sure wasn't after!

I've only had the initial outbreak and one since in three and a half years. It's not been that bad. I always say I'd rather have an outbreak than have to tell a new partner about my status. I hate the stigma. If it was on my face, no one would care!

Anyway. Enough hijacking your blog. ;)

nicothoe

08-05-2011, 07:32 PM

There is a lot of stigma attached to HSV-2, the common cause of genital herpes, especially when you take into account that:

Herpes Virus 1= Coldsores
Herpes Virus 3= Chickenpox/Shingles
Herpes Virus 4= Infectious mononucleosis/mono/glandular fever
Herpes Virus 5= Infectious mononucleosis-like syndrome
Herpes Virus 6= Roseola
Herpes Virus 7= Roseola
Herpes Virus 8= Kaposi's sarcoma

Most of us have come into contact with several of the viruses. These viruses are all latent, meaning once infected, you are infected for life. They like hang-out in nerve and white blood cells, causing recurring infections.

BrigidsDaughter

08-06-2011, 12:09 AM

I know about the antibody test :(, but up here it is not available through general health care. I don't know about the private clinics. It seems the gov has pretty much given up on herpes and HPV, focusing instead on gonorrhea and chlamydia which can cause infertility and thus are vital in the fight to promote national interests and high natality :rolleyes:.

Yep, Vanilla managed to score that too. Her partner's comments? "Well I did wonder why my tongue felt sore, but didn't think much of it".

Thanks, will try to dive into that with some depth later. But it seems that there is too little definite information on how HPV contracts that it's pretty hard to protect against :(.

You can get a shot of Guardasil here in the states that protects against HPV. It is now mandatory (at least in NY) for all girls at the onset of puberty and recommended for boys (who can carry and transmit it to girls). Much like the menengitis vaccine is now required for college entrance.

TruckerPete

08-06-2011, 12:11 AM

You can get a shot of Guardasil here in the states that protects against HPV. It is now mandatory (at least in NY) for all girls at the onset of puberty and recommended for boys (who can carry and transmit it to girls). Much like the menengitis vaccine is now required for college entrance.

It doesn't protect against all strains of HPV, just the ones most likely to cause cervical cancer.

BlackUnicorn

08-08-2011, 10:03 AM

Anyway. Enough hijacking your blog. ;)

Hijacks are always welcome!

Spent the weekend visiting Vanilla's friends in the Southwest. Had a great time, her friends are really cool. I am actually pretty relieved I liked them so much. Even my blend of humor seemed to go down pretty well :).

Attended Slutwalk! There were about 1 000 people marching. I wore fishnets and a T-shirt that didn't really cover much anything below the waist. I would have liked to walk with a sign but was late to come up with anything good. It's hard to describe how exhilarating it felt to be walking with so many people with a single purpose, with so many people watching and taking photos and trying to spell out the signs and figure what's going on. I totally get how people can be swept up with mass movements, even totalitarian ones.

Later in the evening I attended my first ever fetish party. Surprised to say but there was nothing really gruesome or disturbing going on. Even more surprised that I was not bothered in the least by Vanilla going in her friend's leash. I was pretty tired and didn't know too many people there, so it would have occasionally been cool to be able to talk to her, but I did get a hugsy at one point when I was left alone with Vanilla. It wasn't mind-numbingly cool and the music was too loud and mixed for my taste, but Vanilla wanted me to be there and I was happy she had a good time.

I was initially reluctant to go because I didn't want to kill her mojo with her friend at the other end of the leash. They see each other only a few times a year and I didn't want them having to worry about the newbie gf being dragged along. I guess I could have been more social but as said, it was late. I told Vanilla before we went down south that we need to agree on a non-obvious sign so I could excuse myself in the case they wanted to get it on without me :D. She said she trusted my social tact in figuring it out, should the situation arise. It didn't, but now I'm presented with a whole new poly problem; they are nice, and I'd love to hang out with them, but what if they want alone-time with Vanilla? I can't well just tag along to every trip Southwest. Maybe I stay behind and she can go alone, and if they want to visit us up here in our new apartment, we can hang all four of us :o.

I am once again so relieved and happy that we don't have a whole lot of rules with Vanilla as to who we can be and do what with. Other people's rules like no stay-overs, sex-only allowed outside of the primary relationship, sex only if the primary partner is present too, no new partners of specific gender etc. freak me out some. It feels too much like people trying to safeguard themselves against heartbreak.

BlackUnicorn

08-12-2011, 12:41 PM

Just wanted to rant about how awesome my girlfriend is.

So occasionally I get these identity anxiety freak-outs. I know, I know, how self-absorbed can you get, right :rolleyes:? They are most acute whenever I visit dating sites, really. There's always this one little box to check which fills me with dread and creates inner turmoil and mayhem: sexual orientation (I know of one site where you have the options "I don't know/something else" and "queer", but OKC doesn't support such orientation anarchy). I know my troubles are minor compared to people who have to regularly choose male/female boxes, but that one politically charged little question always sends me into a downward spiral of pointless introspection.

It's not that I don't want to be bisexual - I really do. And having a relationship with a man and a woman at the same time should imho guarantee me a lifetime card-carrying membership in the Bisexual Club. The trouble is that I don't feel bisexual. I feel gay. I 'm no longer sexually attracted to men. I don't desire romantic relationships with men. I love individual men as individuals, not as members of their gender, whereas I really do love women :D. My stomach doesn't do somersaults when I'm planning a date with a guy. I'm seriously considering whether to cancel my date tomorrow, because I just don't feel any sizzle or sparkle there. What's the point?

I'm angsting over this to Vanilla, and here's what she said;

"Sweetheart, stop defining yourself. You don't have to be just a dyke or just bi. You just like whom you like. I think sexuality is nothing fixed but rather changes throughout your life. If there's a time when you like being a red-head, nothing should stop you from wanting to go blonde some other time. Definitions are not that serious.

Think about it; what if one day you meet this perfect guy but can't be with him because you've decided on dykehood? That if anything would be sad. Or what if someday you'll end up mono and straight?

Take it easy with your identity anxiety and be what you are, without limiting yourself and angsting over which box you fit in. Why should you box yourself in just now?"

<3 her.

Mya

08-12-2011, 01:49 PM

Vanilla has a really good point there. :) I think I'm going to the same direction as you with my sexual orientation. Right now I would say I'm a Kinsey 4, so in general more attracted to women than men. A few years ago I would've said I'm a 1. I feel like this is changing all the time, not going back and forth though, but going towards total gayness. Now that I know it can change this much, I guess I should know it can go the other way too. One day I might feel totally straight again, who knows. I don't really believe that though. Anyway, just wanted to let you know you're not alone in this thought process. :) We should just let go of the definitions! Although defining yourself as bisexual might be quite convinient, because it's such a broad term and can mean many things. You still don't have to date guys right now if that's not what you want.

SNeacail

08-12-2011, 02:49 PM

Go Vanilla :D

BlackUnicorn

08-17-2011, 10:40 AM

Go Vanilla :D

Indeed.

Woa, so much's been happening lately that I need to make an inventory of all that I need to write about. Nothing major, just some personal revelations/anxieties finally sorted out.

1) Third date with TNG (the New Girl)
2) Why I never talk about myself much
3) Why Moonlightrunner is awesome

1) I've reached a new personal record in my interpersonal life. I've gone on a third date with someone I like and who appareantly likes me back and we plan to meet for a fourth time and there's been NO SEX SO FAR. Jeez. I put on some pretty underwear and all just in case, because I just didn't know.

She admitted that the herpes thing was a bit of a scare for her. Also, she's so far had one experience with another woman which wasn't hugely successful, and feels she needs to be very much infatuated with someone for sex to do anything at all for her. This weekend she is going to have a date with a girl who turned out to be poly after all, and I told her not to stress about us, to see if she hits off with this other girl and in the meanwhile, we agreed to look into possibilities of FtF STD protection. I was happy though that she said she would like to keep on seeing me as a friend in any case, and also with a delightfully easy schedule of once in every two weeks.

I have not heard of dental dams being sold over here, although I guess I need to check out the sex shops still. The options that have been brought up so far:

a) Take a regular male condom, cut off the head and along the side. Use as a dental dam, with gloves. I've tried this once and the rubber just exploded, so I remain sceptical.
b) Cling film (I needed to GoogleTranslate that word, so I hope you get it). Sounds more like an urban legend to me, plus I suspect the taste is less than optimal. Inpractical to use with lube AND makes a weird nose and sticks everywhere (hence the name). Definitely not my first choice.
3) Femdoms. My personal favourite. Hard to insert, but wouldn't require extra gloves. Also the whole arts-and-crafts element is removed. First lube, then the femdom, and more lube. Easy enough. Also readily available at pharmacist.

Suggestions?

TruckerPete

08-17-2011, 11:53 AM

BlackUnicorn

08-17-2011, 02:49 PM

It's call Saran wrap in North America, but cling wrap is the generic term. (Like Kleenex vs tissue, Q-tip vs cotton swab.)

I don't understand how the femdom would be effective? Unless there are different types of female condoms? The one I'm thinking of looks like an oversized male condom, with a hoop on the inside end (like a grappling hook!) and a bigger hoop on the outside end. It offers relatively little protection to the outside area compared to a dental dam.

Congrats on the no sex though. Hehehe. I can relate. :p

Thanks for the translation help! And yeah, it's super weird to progress slow-ly for a change. Actually anticipating the first kiss and stuff...weird :D.

To me, the femdom seemed workable; there's so much rubber hanging outside, you know? At least it felt workable when I did a quick manual inspection of myself while wearing one. For actual intercourse with a real-live penis and all, they are less than optimal, though.

And onwards, to topic 2, aka as why I'm uncomfortable with talking about myself to people I really care about.

I just realized on Monday why I tend not to talk about my own personal difficulties with people I love, those that have no bearing on our relationship - stress, medical problems, sadness etc. I just really don't want to make people worry.

Why? Well if I cause people worry, the sky will fall down! City streets will be covered in blood! The earth shall shatter and oceans will rise and take its place, killing billions on the way!

I don't know what would happen. Something very bad, in any case. So I mustn't, under any circumstances, cause people worry.

Must support others. Must be strong, punctual, have things under control. Must always be reachable. Must not never for no reason turn my phone off. Must talk to people online if they initiate. Must never discuss doctor's appointments or medical complaints. Must never change plans without informing everyone well beforehand. Must never stay too long on any errand.

Otherwise, people will be worried and that's no fun.

So if my head's about to cave in, I will make everything ready for a prolonged absence, get myself ready to go and then make a polite phone call to let them know I'm about to have myself committed to a phychiatric hospital for a few months, and could they please take care of my plants while I'm away?

Because that will surely not create any anxiety and paranoia as to how deeply I'm covering my feelings under a smile and a "I'm good, thanks, and you" in the hearts of my near and dears :rolleyes:.

My obsession with my phone, for example, goes back to my mother's approach to wireless communication. She will get absolutely ballistic if I don't respond to her calls. She can call me 29 times and send 18 messages during an hour and a half if I've forgotten my phone somewhere. I can't turn my phone off in a movie theatre without texting her beforehand that my phone will be off for x amount of time and I will call her immediately after the movie ends. And she will always call me if I send the text to make sure - I don't actually know what she's trying to make sure. That I'm alive and it's not somebody else texting from my phone, maybe?

So I fear that other people will answer with extreme anger if I cause them to worry, and will make whatever issue I'm having all about them, how bad they are feeling because I told them about this, how worried they are now for me, how they can't let me do anything now for the fear of the x thing I'm worried and insecure about happening, ending with me having to console them for causing them discomfort with opening up. This is a basic belief about other people I really need to test and work on.

Teiksma

08-17-2011, 07:12 PM

This!

I think I'll print that sentence out and hang it on my door - love it!

I love it too! :)

BlackUnicorn

08-19-2011, 02:21 PM

Topic three that needs to be addressed.

In case someone whose been reading hasn't noticed, I have fallen for Vanilla. Badly. Big time. To a point where I'm struggling to keep my head above the water of NRE.

I felt like an NRE monster. Here I was, neglecting existing partners to go romp away with the new one, if only in the emotional sense. Since I didn't feel this intense, all-consuming passion with Moonlight, I must be taking him on for a ride. He would just be getting the emotional sloppy seconds of me, not the full-on attention he deserves.

And then the horror, the mayhem! I was over their place one night and we didn't have sex with Moonlight :eek:! I was too tired after a ten-hour work shift. We made up for the lack in the morning, but I was still petrified. If you no longer are humping at every opportunity, it must be that things have staled down beyond repair, right :rolleyes:?

Due to past experiences, I freak out way too easily over any and all sex-related weirdness in a relationship. I was convinced my relationship with Vanilla was about to turn entirely platonic after a similar fall asleep without prior sexy times-experience a month ago, which I took to mean we were, after two months of dating, in the middle of the fabled Lesbian Bed Death(Over-reacting? Me? How can you say such a thing?!?!).

You can probably see why I value partners who are a bit less excitable and have a firm grasp of reality.

So I took a few days to mentally prepare for my "I understand if you want to break-up with me"-talk with Moonlight. It went something like this.

"So, you know, I'm really in love with Vanilla right now."
"I've noticed."
"Um...does it, like, make you feel bad, or sad?"
"As long as still you like me, too, I'm happy for the two of you."

All the anticipation! All the drama! For nothing? Talking about an anti-climax right there.

He also went on to talk about how he somehow, even after such a short time, feels very established with me. Like the love between us is born more out of shared attachment than intense infatuation. I truly feel like a satellite member of their family now.

And he's making me a skirt for my b-day. Totally non-poly related, but just wanted to gloat over having a man who can sew :p.

Also, Vanilla told me just recently she doesn't feel the need to look for any additional relationships right now. She feels so fulfilled with me, all her needs are being met, and her head is too full of my rose-tinted pictures right now. In her previous relationships, when she's been with a man, she's felt like maybe a woman would be more up her alley, and with women she has yearned for a man to come along. She said I'm the first one she's ever dated who doesn't make her feel like she's lacking something in her life. I know it's the NRE talking but I like what it's saying. And her need for male companionship is pretty much catered to by her FWBs. She said it feels funny that now when she finally has the opportunity to explore other relationships while with someone, she doesn't need to. Maybe it was just the freedom she needed before. And a few years along the line, when we're more established, there's time for others.

TruckerPete

08-19-2011, 03:59 PM

You can probably see why I value partners who are a bit less excitable and have a firm grasp of reality.

Have I mentioned before that you're freaking adorable?? Because you are! :D

ray

08-21-2011, 03:29 PM

I can relate to the thing about your mother and causing people worry. My mother used to expect that I call her and talk for about an hour each day. And if I didn't answer my phone she would freak out completely. I, too, worry a lot about people getting angry over stuff like that. Last fall I finally weaned her off the phone convos. Now we talk a few times a week. It was difficult. I got a lot of accusations of me not loving her, etc.

I am terrified of falling in love with a vanilla. I'm not sure that I could engage in sex without any kink. O, my previous partner was a vanilla and that did not go well. I suppose though if you have multiple partners it isn't such a big deal. That's awesome though that she feels really fulfilled. :) sounds like it's going well. I would imagine it just takes time to integrate all the relationships and gain a good collective rhythm.

rory

08-22-2011, 10:41 AM

Your realisations about not wanting to make people worry sound like important ones! I'm sure some of those are behaviours you can change now that you've noticed them. :) Just thinking about having to be by the phone all the time, or else drama, makes me so anxious! It does seem you need some firmer boundaries with your mother..

Go Moonlightrunner! :) It's such a good feeling when your expections of major drama are met with an anti-climax like that. And then you feel sort of silly for building the whole thing up because the anticipation has been so much worse than it had been if you'd just talked right away. Been there, with different issues.. :o

nycindie

08-22-2011, 11:45 PM

I am terrified of falling in love with a vanilla. I'm not sure that I could engage in sex without any kink.

Oh my! Terrified of loving! No, don't be terrified of that. Loving someone will make it beautiful, and a loving relationship is about lots more than sex. Besides, what kinksters call vanilla sex (what a put-down!) isn't really necessarily boring or unadventurous. AND, if you're poly, you can also have another lover to do kinky shit with. So, if love comes your way, don't fight it or be terrified, let it in!

ray

08-23-2011, 12:34 AM

I agree and disagree but I elaborated more in my blog. :) Youre right to say I shouldnt be closed off to that completely but I do have some valid concerns there.

nycindie

08-23-2011, 01:27 AM

VanillaIce is a kinkster. I love her, want to make her happy. Even if it means going out of my comfort zone at times. In the meanwhile, I'm trying to sort out if there is something in BDSM I could identify with, what is something I'm comfortable with and what I'm not okay with. Tender boundary-exploration in-process.BU, I thought I remembered you saying, some time ago (perhaps not long after you joined here?), that you're not into BDSM at all. Oh, I was wondering because you were sounding like an expert already.

ray

08-23-2011, 04:39 AM

ha, I totally misread your other post as being you fell for a vanilla instead of you fell for Vanilla. Sorry bout that! My post must have seemed super random. Good luck with managing all the NRE. Be sure to let yourself just enjoy it too. I remember not really getting to in my last relationship and really regretting that. I hope you get to have lots of fun with all your partners. :)

Magdlyn

08-23-2011, 12:22 PM

ha, I totally misread your other post as being you fell for a vanilla instead of you fell for Vanilla.

hehe

Yeah, the part about Vanilla being on one end or another of a leash should've been a dead giveaway.

Personally, I wouldnt want to date/have sex with a vanilla person either. And Cindie, I really don't think you're all that vanilla. I think there's some chocolate sprinkles in your cone, at least.

BlackUnicorn

08-23-2011, 01:13 PM

Have I mentioned before that you're freaking adorable?? Because you are! :D

:o

BlackUnicorn

08-23-2011, 01:15 PM

Last fall I finally weaned her off the phone convos. Now we talk a few times a week. It was difficult. I got a lot of accusations of me not loving her, etc.

Wow, how did you do it? What made you do it? Did you just one day say "Mum, I can't talk now" or what?

BlackUnicorn

08-23-2011, 01:18 PM

Oh, I was wondering because you were sounding like an expert already.

I try to READ READ READ! Even stuff that frankly squicks me a bit. And then talk about what I learned. It's such a huge part of who she is that I try to stay informed to be able to appreciate her for who she is. And ask a lot of stupid questions on the way.

BlackUnicorn

08-23-2011, 01:32 PM

My post must have seemed super random. Good luck with managing all the NRE.

Oh no, not at all! I just interpreted it as musing over how a seasoned kinkster like Vanilla might also have trepidations about dating an uninitiated vanilla ice cream like myself, like you were offering another POV. I really appreciate the input, hadn't even thought about it from her angle.

Oh, and dental dams are available via the net up here also! Moonlight checked them out for me even though I never mentioned it to him, just read it here on my blog, did a bit of research and posted me the links, because he's great like that!

I've decided to call the cluster I inhabit my clan from now on. Thanks to Mum who asked whether the New Girl will be incorporated to "my clan" also. I can't help but to think that a "tribe" is a bit inaccurate a term from an anthropological POV. If my notes from my Anthropology 101 class are in order, "clan" refers to a group of people who can trace common ancestry to a shared forefather/mother. A "tribe" is a group of people who believe they share common ancestry and often cite a mythological forefather/mother that started the tribe as the common link between all the tribe members, but cannot actually trace their lineage all the way back to them.

I think I will continue to refer to people who are either involved directly with me or with my partners (thus being my metamours) as my clan and if I ever am to gain paramours of metamours, they would form the limits of my polyamorous tribe, where my clan is one among many interconnected clans :).

TruckerPete

08-23-2011, 02:16 PM

I've decided to call the cluster I inhabit my clan from now on.

So what you're saying is that my suggestion of "clusterfuck" didn't even make the short list?? :p

BlackUnicorn

08-23-2011, 02:53 PM

So what you're saying is that my suggestion of "clusterfuck" didn't even make the short list?? :p

It was right there with the figure eight ray suggested :D. Now that Windy and I are no longer actually fucking, that particular formation is gone, and hence the need to name it :).

Apppears I'm flooding my own blog, but hey, it's my blog, so here goes:

1) The New Girl and her SO used to be poly from the get-go of their relationship. However, major unresolved jealousy ensued on both sides. Yes, there was boundary-breaking involved (she refers to them as rules). So they did the mono thing for a while. This time around, they are "open", with an OPP in place, and already running into difficulties (not with me, thank gawd).

Is this a giant red flag I'm just not seeing from all the red lust haze? Or normal growing pains a couple goes through? Should I just back the fuck off or let adults be adults and deal with their own relationships?

2) Flattie's going through a rough patch with the moving-out and all. I went with her to therapy last night, and her therapist said I function as her auxiliary ego in taking care of stuff she can't manage, such as cancelling her date last night.

This week I've dedicated to hanging out with her instead of my previous plans to hang out with Moonlight and Vanilla. So where I used to be undecided on the issue of whether polyships affect each other or not, the jury is now out on that one; sometimes you need to prioritize, on the basis of who needs you most at any given moment.

nycindie

08-23-2011, 08:57 PM

And Cindie, I really don't think you're all that vanilla. I think there's some chocolate sprinkles in your cone, at least.

Shhhh! ;)

AnnabelMore

08-23-2011, 09:13 PM

Yep, polyships affect each other. Like they say, love may be infinite but time sure ain't! Not to mention that when I've had a good time with one partner I find that I'm happier and more into things with the other, whereas if I'm feeling confused or down about things with one I'm mopey with the other.

Also, I'm not a fan of OPP (what if you suddenly sprout a penis, would she need to break up with you?) but I can see being lenient with them. As I recently described on my blog, my lovers have had a checkered past with poly. Mistakes are natural, it's all in whether you're willing/able to learn from them...

BlackUnicorn

08-25-2011, 08:57 AM

Also, I'm not a fan of OPP (what if you suddenly sprout a penis, would she need to break up with you?) but I can see being lenient with them. As I recently described on my blog, my lovers have had a checkered past with poly. Mistakes are natural, it's all in whether you're willing/able to learn from them...

Now you made me worried for sudden unbidden and unwelcome sprouts affecting my love life :D!

But yes, it's easy to look down on struggling people and go "Why don't they get a grip already? Why bother if it's so difficult?" instead of cultivating empathy.

Yesterday I had a big reminder about the need to cultivate empathy further within myself. Flattie's new potential was visiting us for "Meet the family" date. Accidentally, he and I used to attend the same year class in the same high school. We never talked during that time and now went over high school years, people we used to know, what kind of impressions we had of each other during high school etc.

During the evening, he went several times; "You make people wary. I mean, you are so blunt and highly analytical, and say the most outrageous things. You make me uncomfortable. I constantly try to monitor what I say and do, because I know you are mentally taking my stock and forming an opinion of me that you will give in another company soon enough".

Flattie tried to defend me by saying I'm just very honest and direct, and he countered with "There is a difference between direct and rude". She admitted her first impression of me was of someone who was very arrogant and prone to making snide remarks of people.

During the night, I made a comment upon a mutual friend of ours, calling her quite stupid. And I immediately realized what the two of them were going on about. I am rather horrible to other people. Quick to pass judgement and force my opinion on others. And it's not something I want to be :(.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

A quick text convo with Flattie produced the following insights;
1) I need to stop using words like 'stupid', 'whore/slut/tart', 'gay' etc. that are loaded with a whole lot of negative history, just like I don't use racial slurs to describe somebody belonging to a different ethnic group from mine.
2) I need to stop equating "not sharing my world view/interests" with "stupid".

BlackUnicorn

09-08-2011, 07:32 AM

Okay, a while since I posted. Recent updates;

Flattie has now moved out. Mum and I spent five and a half hours cleaning out the apartment. In some places, the rot had gotten so deep it had affected the paint, and we had to toss everything out of the fridge because it was just so vile, but I think we covered most of the damage well enough. Anyway, seeing the state the place was in made me a tad worried about her new life down south :(.

The results of my smear test came back - I scored both BV and benign changes in the cellular make-up of my cervix. So now I both have to deal with dis-gust-ing treatment plan and regular check-ups :mad:.

We had a lovely vacation with Vanilla. In the hostel I also got talking with an American fellow-traveller (well, Vanilla and I actually left the hostel every day, so we were technically not real travellers ;)), and just casually mentioned "my girlfriend". So we chatted away about our lives and crazy exes and so on, and later he asked me, at another mention of Vanilla, if the two of us were "together". "Yeah, we are together, as in a couple, dating, planning to get married together" I went, and even crossed my fingers in a gesture I hoped conveyed togetherness. "Yeah, that's what I originally thought, but then you started talking about your boyfriend, and I got confused." "EX-boyfriend." "Yeah, I figured, one way or another he had to be."

At that point I could have launched on an educative rant about bisexuality and poly, but decided it was not worthwile. I was happy though later, when a local guy asked us if we were a couple, as in lesbians, and we went yes to couple, not to lesbians - that we are both more bisexual. Yay for bi visibility!

Interestingly enough, a former Soviet country with a track record of homophobia wasn't a least bit hostile to our hand-holding and kissing in public. And only once were we served with separate bills in a restaurant. I'm impressed!

rory

09-08-2011, 04:42 PM

The medical stuff sounds less-than-fun :(

But glad you guys had such a lovely vacation!! :)

SNeacail

09-08-2011, 05:30 PM

And only once were we served with separate bills in a restaurant. I'm impressed!

Jeesh - It always takes an act of congress to get separate checks around here (unless you are at separate tables) and they are usually wrong. :eek:

BlackUnicorn

09-25-2011, 12:15 PM

Last night we talked a lot about sex in the spiritual group I'm now temporarily leading due to Flattie's move-out. It's all-girls, so we got pretty graphic. Major sex myths, like the "all women prefer stimulation orally or manually compared to intercourse", were busted. I was also asked, if forced to choose, whether I would only have sex with other women or with men for the rest of my life, and if there was a difference between the two to my mind.

I would choose girls, mainly because with men, sex tends to be more scripted, with a clear "story-arch" from beginning to the end. It doesn't have to be that way but often is. Also, with men, sex tends to revolve very much around penises and their functioning. Not that there is nothing wrong with that, but I tend to feel there isn't a lot I can do to bring pleasure to my partners - it's more laying back and having things done unto me, and if for whatever reason Mr. Downbelow isn't up for it, there is little to do.

With women, you can prolong things indefinitely, and everyone can pretty much come as often as they would like. With Vanilla, on average, we both come around six times. With women, sex is a lot more orgasmic and centered on coming in different ways for as long as possible, whereas with men, it's more about hanging out and passing the time in a pleasant way for me. The intensity levels are just different.

ray

09-26-2011, 01:04 AM

Hmm, that's very interesting. :) I'm still learning about sex so I always enjoy hearing explanations of things. The organic experience you're describing with women sounds like a lot of fun. Makes me wish I were interested in sex with women! Maybe someday I will be. :) I like your nickname for penises, tehe. Part of me does worry that I will feel sort of purposeless in sex with men. Just laying there... having things done to you. I'm sure I'll figure something out but it's definitely something I've wondered about. Feeling useless... Lol.

TruckerPete

09-26-2011, 01:59 AM

Part of me does worry that I will feel sort of purposeless in sex with men. Just laying there... having things done to you. I'm sure I'll figure something out but it's definitely something I've wondered about. Feeling useless... Lol.

It's not like that at all! Trust me, hips are magical things. ;)

AnnabelMore

09-26-2011, 02:35 AM

This is more directed at Ray than at you, BU, but frankly I'm puzzled by your description of sex with men. In my experience it can easily involve just as much play, biting, licking, sucking, touching, rubbing, tussling, nuzzling, etc as sex with women. And why all the emphasis on lying there when you can just as easily jump on top and ride off into the orgasmic sunset? Or take turns, try it doggie style, try it spooning, alternate penetrative sex with oral sex, etcetc.

It's true that a man will have the whole refractory period thing going on, but if he's willing to be patient and hold off on his own climax, there's no reason the pleasure can't be extended for both of you for a good long while. This, of course, assumes a man with enough knowledge of his sexual response to know when to tell you to stop stimulating him for a bit when he's getting close to orgasm and who also has enough self control to want to do so in the moment. Mmmmm. :) Generally even if they don't start out with sufficient amounts of those two qualities, they can be trained!

BrigidsDaughter

09-26-2011, 03:31 AM

I was a bit puzzled by that myself, Annabel. Maybe I'm just lucky, but both of my guys are very attentive to my needs and I usually have to beg them to let me take a breather because I'm getting too sensitive. One of the main reasons that Wendigo and I got together was because he loves giving oral and Pretty Lady isn't that into it. Even when she and I are together, there is very little oral stimulation below the belt.

ray

09-26-2011, 09:37 PM

In my defense, I'm a virgin. So I have yet to experience sex with either gender. I'm not denying that sex with men could be interesting. That has just been one of my fears. I certainly plan to make sex with my partners as interesting as possible. I just haven't had the chance yet. :)

AnnabelMore

09-26-2011, 10:33 PM

Hi Ray! In in case it was unclear, my intent was to address BU's statements but to direct the whole thing mainly to you since you said you weren't experienced and were looking to learn. :) So, no judgment of you! No judgment of BU either, for that matter, just a differing viewpoint/experience to offer and some surprise on my part.

TruckerPete

09-27-2011, 12:00 AM

nycindie

09-28-2011, 07:16 AM

. . . with men, sex tends to revolve very much around penises and their functioning. Not that there is nothing wrong with that, but I tend to feel there isn't a lot I can do to bring pleasure to my partners - it's more laying back and having things done unto me, and if for whatever reason Mr. Downbelow isn't up for it, there is little to do.

Wow, this has not been my experience. There is so much to do! And I've had a number of lovers who were focused on me more than their big moment. Maybe the guys you've been with were not very playful nor imaginative. I mean, so many positions, so much fun! My ex would be surprised what I've done to the couch he bought since he moved out! Plenty of stuff to do that's a little different each time. That's what I loved about Shorty, we never did the same thing twice. Ahhhh. With Lively, we're always switching things up, too -- it's never boring! Sometimes I feel like I'm hopping around all night -- turn around, get over here, on the couch, the floor, the bed, up against the wall. The first night I was with Lively we got into this position somehow, which had me hanging off the bed upside down while he fucked me. I had one hand on the floor and the other holding on to my headboard so I wouldn't land on my skull! It was hilarious. I don't think I've ever just laid back and let a guy do whatever, without any direction from me, unless I was drunk. Maybe a penis intimidates you in some way? If you find yourself just lying there again, wondering what to do, ask yourself what you'd want that would make it more fun and interesting, and then do it or ask for it! As far as not being sure of what to do to bring them pleasure, Google can help you find wonderful articles and tutorials on fellatio techniques, diagrams for interesting positions, fun toys, etc. As they say at Babeland, "Laugh and don't be afraid to make a mess."

BlackUnicorn

09-28-2011, 11:09 AM

Thanks for all the feedback. This is definitely a personal issue for me, not a condemnation of all straight sex always forever :D. I seem to have a selection bias towards men who have issues with orgasms, mainly, the lack of them. At least with me :(. Which puts me down something fierce.

I know that coming isn't the be all and end all of sex even for men :), but I find there is an ingredient missing nevertheless. So far I've had fully mutual and satisfactory sexual relations with one guy of the four I've been with, so I tend to get a bit pessimistic.

I'm a very vaginal person (is there a proper word for that? guess not :o), so intercourse feels wonderful, and I have zero trouble with penises, Indie - I love giving head ;). It's more of a trouble with going through every trick in my books, asking for tips, trying to be imaginative and ending up frustrated.

I feel like I'm using men to masturbate on, in a way, and they don't get the same benefits that I do.

TruckerPete

09-28-2011, 11:56 AM

BlackUnicorn

09-28-2011, 04:15 PM

Post away! The more explicit sex technique advice in one blog, the better!

BlackUnicorn

09-28-2011, 05:32 PM

While waiting for the porn to hit my blog (yay!), I have to share a Recent Relationship Revelation I had.

Developing connections really takes time and work!

Whooa, I know. BIG surprise. Who knew that if you are going out with a full-time working, almost constantly sleep-deprived father of two, that you would actually sometimes need to take time just to, I dunno, do relationshippy-stuff?

Vanilla, always the one for practical solutions, suggested I spend time during the weekend with Moonlight one-on-one in our apt, just the two of us, and sleep through the night together if it's okay with Windy. I'm excited!

AnnabelMore

09-28-2011, 06:13 PM

I've never been with a man who was anorgasmic, so I can't say what that would be like, but I did once find myself in bed with a guy friend making out while we were both fairly intoxicated. I know, I know, I shoulda waited until we were both sober, but I knew he was into me and I was into him, so I stuck my hand down his pants.

He was hard, and a few minutes later I asked if he had a condom. He said yes, but said regretfully "I'm too drunk, though, it's not going to work." Me, "?? But you're hard." Him, "I can't come when I've been drinking." Me, "But... won't it feel good anyway? I mean, I don't always come during sex." He looked surprised, as if the idea to just do it for the pleasure of the act rather than the climax hadn't occurred to him. Then we went for it, it was awesome, and he wanted to see me again at the next available opportunity. :D

Now maybe not all men would be that flexible or would feel the same if it was like that every time. But don't feel like you're necessarily just using a guy if he doesn't come... it doesn't mean that it doesn't feel great for him! Again, after all, I wouldn't want my partner to feel bad about sex with me if I couldn't come just because it felt unfair.

I feel like, as bisexuals, we are privileged to get to use our experience with one gender to inform our experiences with the other. For instance, when the topic of penis size comes up, I say -- "I sleep with women and they don't even *have* penises! So clearly it's not an issue." Even a tiny guy can still lick me and work a toy. :D Similarly, orgasm is often not the end-all be-all goal with women, and it shouldn't have to be with men either.

nycindie

09-28-2011, 07:58 PM

Yeah, certainly not all my hot sex with guys has resulted in their cumming every time. Au contraire! Shorty, one of my best-ever lovers, didn't always. Because he had trained himself so well to hold back, sometimes he couldn't cum at all. He would tell me, "It's not going to happen, I held back three times." Lively sometimes seems to get overstimulated and doesn't cum. For him, I find that prolonging the actual penetration does help, and slowing him down to focus on the pleasure and sensations of our bodies together. I've had awesome sex where I didn't cum, either (but I do prefer cumming over not cumming, to be sure). And sometimes I have an orgasm that's like a little blip on the landscape, no big deal at all. Also, remember that, for a guy, there can be ejaculation without orgasm and orgasm without ejaculation. The tricky part is not to let ourselves be disappointed, because we're all waiting for that money shot. I know sometimes I've felt like I didn't do a good enough job if the guy didn't cum, but hey, we're all responsible for our own orgasms. If I don't cum, it's not his fault, and if he doesn't, it's not mine.

Sorry to ramble...

Minxxa

09-28-2011, 08:37 PM

I agree that there are so many ways to enjoy sex and it's a shame there's such a stressor on "end results". :(

Maybe it's our job as sexual explorers to pass the word around: orgasms are not required, creativity is!

BlackUnicorn

09-29-2011, 12:35 PM

Tiredness, excessive training, condoms, newness are at least some of the things amounting to this current situation, so I'm not throwing in the towel quite yet.

The thing is, I come VERY easily and often. It's a huge part of my sexual experiences, so I tend to think others should, too, instead of being just able to relax and let others enjoy the ride the way they see fit.

Magdlyn

09-29-2011, 01:00 PM

Is this trouble cumming an ongoing thing with him, or just with you?

If it's just with you, ask him why? Is he intimidated by your being bi? Is he on anti-depressants? If the answer to both is no, then...

Can he cum, after fucking for a while, by getting out of your vag and having a hj/bj? Sometimes men (or penis-having transwomen) need or prefer the more intense direct stimulation of fingers (with lots of spit, or even better, a good lube). Do you know men have a "clit?" That frenulum just below the head on the underside is the sweet spot. Stroking up and down on the whole shaft and head like a piston can create numbness. Sensitive stroking of the frenulum only is usually a winner for me (with my gf, who has a penis :) ). She has described to me, and shown me, just where and how to stroke her. If he can cum from masturbation, ask him to show you just what he does when he masturbates. He could even get himself off while you watch, taking notes. ;)

Also, some men (and transwomen) get extra excited by some prostate stim. A finger or toy in the ass while stroking the penis can be very productive.

If he's fine with not cumming, and happy to give you lots of Os, on the one hand I'd say, you get to have your big moment(s), so all is good. OTOH, I do like the "money shot" myself, so if a partner never came, I'd be concerned.

Minxxa

09-29-2011, 02:34 PM

The thing is, I come VERY easily and often. It's a huge part of my sexual experiences, so I tend to think others should, too, instead of being just able to relax and let others enjoy the ride the way they see fit.

I get you on that one. :)

I think Mad's right in that asking him what he likes will help a lot. It definitely helps to get a handle on what your partner likes and what they feel about coming, etc.

It still amazes me sometimes how completely different our likes, turnons, and even physical experiences of sex can be!

BlackUnicorn

09-29-2011, 03:53 PM

Thanks, all! You have such practical advice always, Mags. I had noticed that point, but didn't realize it had a name. And yeah, Minxxa, that's one of the hardest thing about sex - what I like does not equal what everyone else likes!

Vanilla and I chatted about current & prospective secondaries. We agreed that what we find difficult with poly is not so much the aspect of multiple loves, or the existence of loving feelings for numerous people at a time. The devil is in the details of time and energy management.

What is intimidating is the thought that a new partner would enter the picture and consume all the time, energy, interest and sexuality of either one of us. Skyping several hours with an OSO a few times a week is okay - Skyping several hours a day every day is not, especially if the SO is excluded from any company or affection. Staying over at the OSO's place for a few nights per week is okay - moving the OSO in to our place is not. We both need the 'primary'-designation; meaning that if I am to marry, I am to marry her - if I will have children, I will have children with her.

I think my biggest difficulty (besides dealing with my own baggage sexuality-wise) in relationships is that I sincerely believe that if it's true love, there are no real issues - everything will just be perfect because that's how true love is, you know? And if there are issues, it's a sign that things are not working out, i.e. no true love detected -> toss it aside and move on.

My relationships have been bit of a mess lately. Sweetheart, presumed dead and gone, resurfaced after three months of radio silence. I don't know what to think.

AnnabelMore

09-29-2011, 04:17 PM

I think my biggest difficulty (besides dealing with my own baggage sexuality-wise) in relationships is that I sincerely believe that if it's true love, there are no real issues - everything will just be perfect because that's how true love is, you know? And if there are issues, it's a sign that things are not working out, i.e. no true love detected -> toss it aside and move on.

Tell me that you do realize that real life is nothing like that though, right? I mean, if "true love" were really like that it would mean that none of us on this board has ever exerienced it, or else we wouldn't have "real issues" to come here and chat about, which we clearly all do to varying degrees. Hell, even romance novels and movies, with their tenuous grasp on reality, show lovers having to overcome their issues in order to be together

Minxxa

09-29-2011, 04:47 PM

Vanilla and I chatted about current & prospective secondaries. We agreed that what we find difficult with poly is not so much the aspect of multiple loves, or the existence of loving feelings for numerous people at a time. The devil is in the details of time and energy management.

What is intimidating is the thought that a new partner would enter the picture and consume all the time, energy, interest and sexuality of either one of us.

I just had to deal with this issue very recently. Energy and focus-- when someone is in constant contact with another person, their energy and focus is sapped and they are never really THERE with you. We had to do a bit more scheduling and dedicate some focused time for US to connect, because for a while I felt like I was living by myself, but with another body wandering through the house at times. :-/

AnnabelMore

09-29-2011, 05:02 PM

Btw, having spent time on this board defending the idea that primary/secondary distinctions can be necessary/useful, it's nice to see another non-newbie talking about how it can be important.

TruckerPete

09-30-2011, 02:23 PM

Okay, sorry for the delay. Here's my experience with guys that have difficulty cumming during sex.

One cause can be their masturbation technique. Some guys maintain a death grip on their cocks while getting off. Now, unless you've been lifting weights with your vag, I doubt you can match this sensation. Solution would be to stop masturbating or change it drastically, have only sex or lighter stimulation. Basically, retrain the body to cum for sensations other than the death grip.

For guys that have issues with condoms, try masturbating with a condom on, and also putting the condom on a good amount of time before penetration when having sex. This will allow the body to adjust to the decrease in sensation from a condom.

Another guy I dated, said that orgasm was an intensely private thing for him. As a kid/teenager, his parents were very demanding of him, judgemental, and so he had some shame issues to deal with. For those who are "embarrassed" or self conscious about cumming, Dan Savage offers great advice, which I'll do my best to sum up. Basically, he starts by blindfolding you, giving you headphones and music to drown out his fapping, and even duct taping your mouth closed as needed. :p He also wears a blindfold, whatever is needed to feel most private to him. As he gets comfy getting off like this, gradually the sensory-depriving items are removed, until he's able to cum with you watching, or participating with, etc. And you just build from there. The key is to go slowly, and not be afraid to back up a step or two when you need to.

This particular gent I was with also had a death grip, so there was plenty to work on! It was about ... 4 or 5 months into our relationship before he came during sex. He had had previous girlfriends who were not very understanding at all; he described it as feeling like he had to cum to save the relationship. Or, they would get off and not care about getting him off. We just took it really easy, I did my very best to never pressure him; as long as sex had been enjoyable and he felt satisfied, that was enough for me. If he couldn't cum after sex, it was no big deal, we moved on. It also helped him that I had difficulty cumming (meds and my own anxiety), so often neither of us came!

I think in general, society takes the male orgasm for granted. Sorting this kind of thing out is about separating your own issues (i.e. insecurity if he doesn't cum) from his (embarrassment, death grip, etc.). He also needs to want to "fix" the issue. If it's not a problem for him, then that's just something you need to accept.

Phew! That's my spiel. :p Hope it's helpful!

BlackUnicorn

09-30-2011, 09:46 PM

Tell me that you do realize that real life is nothing like that though, right?

On some level, yeah - on others, I remain sceptical :D.

...it's nice to see another non-newbie talking about how it can be important.

Haha, I feel like a newbie still, but yes, I could never put this amount of energy and time to yet another person (with the possible exception of our kid someday) that I am putting now into Vanilla, because I am a finite person with finite resources in that respect. She has the first pick of my free time. If she needs me, I drop everything to be there for her. I think it's only fair, because my secondaries have primaries of their own to turn to. And that's why I don't feel it would be ethical of me to start dating a single person right now.

I think in general, society takes the male orgasm for granted. Sorting this kind of thing out is about separating your own issues (i.e. insecurity if he doesn't cum) from his (embarrassment, death grip, etc.). He also needs to want to "fix" the issue. If it's not a problem for him, then that's just something you need to accept.

Thanks for this! We are going to talk this out this weekend.

ray

10-01-2011, 06:24 AM

I know a guy that has a tough time cumming... I suspect it may be due to the death grip. ;)

@Bu I can see what you're saying about single people and primaries. I think it's hard as a single person to be a secondary. I'm sure there are some who feel good in that role and enjoy having less of a time commitment. But, I think that I've seen secondaries work better when all parties involved have some sort of primary. I think it's understandable that you'd seek to be with others who have lots going on in their lives and will be less likely to feel neglected.

BlackUnicorn

10-02-2011, 09:23 AM

My mother greatly enjoys the Brideshead novels. She has also on many times said to me that while you can have all things in life, it is a rare instance to be able to have every single one of them at the same time.

I've discovered that I can't do open right now. No one else turns me on sexually but Vanilla. People I used to feel titillated by, enjoyed engaging with and making love to, no longer arouse me. I can't get wet, I can't orgasm or if I do, it's very painful. I don't want to sleep with anyone else.

Still, I do feel love for other people. The people I have shared my heart with continue to have it, but I cannot be there for them sexually, not even out of compassion (and who wants pity fucks anyway?). It's like my body's shut down completely to anyone else but Vanilla. It's freakish.

(That difficulty coming thing? Entirely me. Actually, it was good I started the bitch and moan on it, because it made me put things in perspective and take a good harsh look at myself, eliminating other possible distractions and realizing it was me who stayed constant.)

So now I am polyamorous but sexually monogamous. It's weird.

rory

10-02-2011, 09:35 AM

^That's interesting! I can believe it must feel weird. But it's good you've noticed that about yourself. Do you figure it's major NRE effects? How are your other loved ones taking it? I mean, there's propably little you can do about it, and nothing they can, but it must be an adjustment.

BlackUnicorn

10-02-2011, 10:19 AM

It might be some sort of nest-building instinct. As in "Now we are spending all available time together, having sex, enjoying each other, and these months will be the glue that holds our relationship together when the first gush of infatuation slows down and reality sets in". Like Vanilla said one morning, while preparing my eggs, "I always dreamt of having a goddess of a my own to make omelette for in the morning before she gets up, and now I have it, tra-lalla-lalla-laa!". I bet that in a few years, both my goddess factor and her tra-lallas have decreased a great deal, and instead our mornings will involve in-bed squabbling over who's turn it is to feed the cat ("It's your cat!" "But it's your child too! Don't you love him?" "Not that much"). But we'll have the memories of these times, and maybe that will lend a more tender edge to the squabbling?

I thought it was a orientation thing, me moving further up the scale towards six, but last Friday, I was out with The New Girl, an object of my fantasies for over a year now, and I felt nothing. Not the tiniest stir. Even my fantasy life is pure Vanilla these days :eek:.

Funkily enough, also Vanilla has lost interest in other partners, sexual or otherwise. So maybe it's a huge NRE spill-over for both of us. We we're just texting, essentially asking each other if it's really okay that we don't want to do anyone else right now :D. No changes to our relationship format, we might be mono dykes but we'll be bi poly in spirit!

As for my other loves, I can't speak for them, but I guess it's pretty much "Fuck. Well, there's nothing to do about it now". And things might change. Sadness :(.

Magdlyn

10-02-2011, 12:46 PM

Hey BU, I just reread your whole thread because I was having a hard time remembering who all you were with. So, here's a list.

Vanilla (female). I don't know how you met her, but it seems you met, fell in love, and moved in together after just a couple months of knowing each other. Full bore NRE in effect, as well as U-Haul Lesbian factor. Vanilla has 2 FWBs, thought she wanted a male Dom, but now is just interested in you.

Moonlight (male) and Windy (female), a married busy couple with kids. You tried sex with Windy (they were supposed to be your dream couple for you as a unicorn), but there wasn't really a spark between the women. Moonlight must be the dude that has trouble cumming when you have sex.

Sweetheart (male) deployed military guy, not much going on there.

Flattie (female), just a friend? Former roommate with you and Vanilla, but she's recently moved away.

The New Girl (f), a few dates, no sex yet because of herpes issue.

But now you're not interested in having sex with anyone but Vanilla... feeling crazy strong NRE and nesting with her is taking up all of your available emotional/sexual energy.

BlackUnicorn

10-02-2011, 04:12 PM

What a lovely sum-op of my life for the last six months! And I met Vanilla through a guy I was seeing, whose sub she used to be, and the first time I saw her they were sessioning :D. Totally going to come up with a better story for the grandkids.

Flattie is just a straight friend, and used to be only my flattie, not a shared one with Vanilla. She had severe issues with depression and I took care of her a lot during her bad times.

Sweetheart pretty much disappeared on me for three months, because of his job. Now he's back and there's a major weirdness factor involved.

Magdlyn

10-02-2011, 04:51 PM

What a lovely sum-op of my life for the last six months! And I met Vanilla through a guy I was seeing, whose sub she used to be, and the first time I saw her they were sessioning :D. Totally going to come up with a better story for the grandkids.

hehe. OK, good to know. You say youre not into BDSM, but yet you consider yourself a dom or top, and you met Vanilla at a play party? Hm?

Flattie is just a straight friend, and used to be only my flattie, not a shared one with Vanilla. She had severe issues with depression and I took care of her a lot during her bad times.

Oh, Flattie means flatmate. Cultural thing, we don't call them flats here in the US. But did she used to live with you and your mom at yr mom's place before you got the "flat" with Vanilla?

Sweetheart pretty much disappeared on me for three months, because of his job. Now he's back and there's a major weirdness factor involved.

Is he back in Finland, or just back emailing? Is it weird, or just sort of uncomfortable? Are there certain expectations he has?

BlackUnicorn

10-02-2011, 05:41 PM

You say youre not into BDSM, but yet you consider yourself a dom or top, and you met Vanilla at a play party? Hm?

Haha, a service top at the very most. I'm not very dominant at all, unless you count a desire to take care of others (sometimes despite their fierce protesting that they do not need taking care of at all! Now shut up and eat your porridge, you'll thank me later! :D).

The first play party I ever went to was while Vanilla and I were firmly established as a couple already. The frst session took place in her flat; I was dating this dom and told him that I found BDSM pretty weird, so he offered to show me what a real session looked like, suspecting my preconceptions were a lot wilder than the actual thing, which they were. Some hot threesome action followed later, and after I was finished with the guy, some more hot one-on-one action with Vanilla.

Like one of her playmates said; "If somebody goes so completely into subspace as Vanilla does, it's pretty impossible not to respond with going into top space yourself". But I identify as vanilla with someone I love who is kinky.

Oh, Flattie means flatmate. Cultural thing, we don't call them flats here in the US. But did she used to live with you and your mom at yr mom's place before you got the "flat" with Vanilla?

No, I moved out of my mum's home in 2010, lived for a year sharing a "flat" with Flattie (althought increasingly elsewhere towards the end), and after she moved out, I moved to Vanilla's place. Clear as mud.

Is he back in Finland, or just back emailing? Is it weird, or just sort of uncomfortable? Are there certain expectations he has?

Back emailing. I think the only way he is ever going to come home is feet first. And I don't say this to begrudge him, I knew what I was getting into all along. I think the weirdness comes from him sort of expecting us to pick up right from where we left, and me going "wtf? I had reconciled myself to thinking you were dead! I thought myself a fucking pseudo-widow for three months, and now I'm supposed to continue a relationship with a dead guy?".

(I know of a girl btw who, whenever serious relationship issues/threat of break-up arise, convinces herself that the person they are struggling with is actually dead, deleting them from every single communication technology they posses and mourning for their demise. And it's really weird if they eventually reconcile, because she still believes they're dead somehow :eek:.)

BlackUnicorn

10-02-2011, 06:16 PM

Since somebody pointed out to me recently that my perspective on relationships might be somewhat problematic, I'm going to very briefly explain myself, which hopefully may shed some light on my issues, or not.

When I spoke of my definition of true love as something that has no issues, I chose my words carelessly. My definition of "true love" is love that accepts even those features of someone's personality and identity that are uncomfortable or difficult for oneself, instead of wishing that they might magically change in order to be truly lovable and good partnership material.

So mayhap I should have phrased it somewhere along the lines of "true love for me means that there are no fundamental issues that can never be solved without the other person experiencing a major personality make-over and suddenly starting to want all the same things as I do". In my first ever relationship this was what actually became a major obstruction, both of us feeling that if the other would just change a teeny-weeny bit for me, because if they love me, they would at least try, right? I would be less sex-crazed and he less flaky. No, I still think if you love somebody, you don't need them to change. Otherwise it's not so much true love as infatuation with a fantasy future you think you are going to have with this person if they would just be a little less themselves.

And this, btw, has nothing to do with my recent sexual shutdown.

I was told that this attitude basically forces the person I'm with to keep their mouth shut about any problems, no matter how small, in the fear that I will dumb them. Which isn't true. Fundamental incompatibility is not the same thing as putting the dishes from the washer to all the wrong places. Behaviour can be changed but the true core of someone should just be accepted as it is.

If orgasms are not as important to someone, although they are to me, it's cool - that's my shit to deal with, and yet another lesson that not everyone thinks the way I do. Especially if they come with other people but not me, it's with me, not them, that the pseudo-problem lies. I think most people struggle with really trying to see other people's point of view, which is why communication is so crucial.

And now I think I should finally try to send my research proposal onwards.

ray

10-03-2011, 01:04 AM

hmmm, the girl the pretends people are dead...that's very interesting. I think there is some psychological effectiveness to that. Really allowing yourself to drop it and move on. I can see how that would make for strange reunions though. Perhaps it helps her not get back into destructive things? I'm starting to realize that I like to distance myself pretty far from something/someone if it doesn't work out, especially if it ends pretty badly. In fact, last night, I had a dream that Nurse and his girltoy got eaten by a bear. I thought maybe it was a sign that I should consider them dead to me (long story). :P

I can see how you would feel strange picking things up with Sweetheart. Does he understand how weird it feels for you? I would have a hard time knowing that that might happen again. :/ I suppose you'll have to sort through that but I'm finding for me that consistency is such a wonderful thing and I'm beginning to filter out the things and people that are inconsistent/disruptive. Military relationships definitely have some unique challenges. My sister's husband is in the army and I know that there's a lot to consider before committing to those. I am pretty (personally) opposed to long distance so I'm not sure I'd be that open to dating military guys but lots of people find ways to make it work and have beautiful relationships. :)

nycindie

10-03-2011, 04:03 AM

. . . I had a dream that Nurse and his girltoy got eaten by a bear. I thought maybe it was a sign that I should consider them dead to me (long story). :P
Haha, Ray, maybe you were the bear in your dream! :p

BU, just wondering (I might've missed this): how old are you?

BlackUnicorn

10-03-2011, 11:13 AM

Haha, Ray, maybe you were the bear in your dream! :p

Growaargh!

BU, just wondering (I might've missed this): how old are you?

23. I think it's in my profile.

I just realized yesterday that upping my anti-anxiety medication from 40 mg to 50 mg a day might be responsible for at least some of the recent dive in my sex drive and the orgasm difficulties. At least it happened around the same time :confused:.

I hope to talk to Sweetheart today.

AnnabelMore

10-03-2011, 12:44 PM

Actually, I'd be pretty shocked if increasing your dosage by 25% didn't affect your sex drive in some way. Gia is on anti-anxiety meds and for her it's a struggle to find a happy medium where she can be functional in her life at large and also isn't too jittery about physical closeness to be intimate (dosage too low) or too uninterested to want sex (dosage too high).

Then again, you do still want Vanilla, so it's not like your sex drive as a whole has vanished.

But whether it's meds, NRE, or something else entirely, this has all happened very quickly. I think it makes sense to tell the other people in your life some variation (depending on the particular circumstances with that person) on "I'm in a weird place right now, and I may or may not want you sexually if and when I come out of it, but know that I do still care about you."

BlackUnicorn

10-03-2011, 05:47 PM

Moonlight and I will continue our relationship even with the current limitations. I'm happy, I don't want to break up but feel like I'm not just good gf material right now. Probably this orgasm panic was a cover-up on how I really didn't feel like being touched sexually and still wanting to contribute something. With Vanilla it's easier, because we can get it on with no touching my things at all, and be both quite happy, but Moonlight and I are sexually incompatible in that regard that we both like most seeing other people liking it.

And I'm relieved that although the meds are pretty fierce, the effect should even out, and maybe my private parts will be revived at some point in the future?

(No, my vagina doesn't have a name. The closest I ever came to naming it was when Cupcake asked what I have between my legs. "My private thingie" "Do you have a willie?" "No, I'm a girl" "Will you become a boy when you grow up?" "No, I'll stay this way" "Okay" -> massive sigh of relief from me, since neither Windie nor Moonlight was there and I so didn't want to explain this whole sex/gender difference thingie to him :eek:)

ray

10-07-2011, 01:50 AM

"Do you have a willie?" "No, I'm a girl"

This made me giggle! I don't think anyone's ever asked me that. Although, when I was a wee tyke, I thought that boys or girls could have or not have penises. I imagined that women with penises wore special panty hose so as to accommodate their extra parts. I could have sworn that my friend Gabby had one...lol I was like 3 or 4. Then one day I learned that boys had penises and girls didn't. But then...I learned that I was right after all in way. Transgender stuff and all that.

BlackUnicorn

10-07-2011, 04:10 PM

Always trust your childhood intuition!

Talk with Sweetheart was reassuring, as always. Whenever I come up with this worst case scenario of how things will unwind with him, he somehow and usually without prompting seems to find just the words I was needing to hear. We agreed to being intimate friends for the time being, since his wife is really in no condition for anything beyond that. I find it's easier for me to relate to people in a friend rather than in a couple context. Maybe I have too high expectations of how relationships SHOULD be?

My arm is itching the living hell out of me. I got a tattoo on it on Tue and the itching has only just began in earnest, I fear :(.

rory

10-07-2011, 04:30 PM

So cool you got a tattoo! Remember, the tattoo will last way longer than the itching (if that's any consolation)! :)

BlackUnicorn

10-07-2011, 05:11 PM

Haha, I know! It was just so much easier to handle when it just hurt. So many worthwhile things in life hurt; being born, growing up, breaking up, knowing yourself, healing, giving birth, dying (I imagine), but itching is just...pathetic, really :D.

I'm just putting loads of lotion on it, and remembering the dire warning I received at the studio, how 80% of infected tattoos got infected because people scratched them open (yuk)...

TruckerPete

10-08-2011, 12:14 AM

Also a good chance of damaging the tattoo if you scratch and pick. So hang in there and be strong!!

Magdlyn

10-08-2011, 10:51 AM

...when I was a wee tyke, I thought that boys or girls could have or not have penises. I imagined that women with penises wore special panty hose so as to accommodate their extra parts. I could have sworn that my friend Gabby had one...lol I was like 3 or 4. Then one day I learned that boys had penises and girls didn't. But then...I learned that I was right after all in way. Transgender stuff and all that.

*like*

BlackUnicorn

10-09-2011, 09:32 PM

Her innards have sort of slipped to peek out from in between her lady parts! I don't know how to really describe it better, I haven't seen it yet. The uneven, sort-of-mooshy tissue at the front of the vagina has moved further down and is now visible at the mouth of the slit.

:eek::confused::o:(:mad:

I tried googling vaginal trauma/injury and got so nauseous that I couldn't keep on reading. She's scheduled for a doctor on Tue. I fear it's all the fisting of late that has done this (she also has pain sitting and walking). This is the first genuine sex accident I've ever been involved in and I feel terrible!

The stuff can't just slip out! Something's broken in there! The bleeding has stopped but the pain has gotten worse. Argh! I'll never have sex again!

AnnabelMore

10-09-2011, 10:57 PM

Oh no oh no!!! :( :(

Here's hoping the Doc says everything will be just fine!! Oh man, Tuesday can't come too soon...

ray

10-10-2011, 12:27 AM

Sounds like it could be a prolapse? Which often happens without outside help such as fisting, so I wouldn't leap to blaming yourself. Could just be a natural body thing. In any event, I hope the doc's appointment goes well. Waiting is never fun. :(

nycindie

10-10-2011, 01:45 AM

The uterus kind of floats on its attachments and moves around in the cavity there, so a prolapsed uterus is fairly common. Years ago, I leaned a type of abdominal massage meant to pop it back into place. Yes, of course, she should see a doctor, but it may not be as serious as you think.

TruckerPete

10-10-2011, 12:20 PM

Prolapse was my first thought as well. *hug* It's not your fault, even if it was caused by fisting. That's why it's an accident!

*more hugs!*

BlackUnicorn

10-11-2011, 08:35 AM

Ok, visited the ER last night, and her stuff is entirely normal, just badly inflamed and swollen, which makes it look/feel somewhat fierce. It's either yeast or BV, and she's getting treatment for both. I'm taking care of my own itchiness, too. No sex for now, instead we spent a fun and relieved night playing Japanese dating games and moaning about our respective itches.

Tonight it's a movie with Vanilla and Moonlight! I'm so happy and relieved :o.

rory

10-11-2011, 08:59 AM

Oh, good thing there's nothing more serious! :) Have a nice evening!

TruckerPete

10-11-2011, 09:23 PM

Minxxa

10-11-2011, 09:26 PM

What's BV? Maybe just being dense right now. (Long day at work!)

At any rate, so glad it wasn't more serious!! Ever think you'd be glad your gf had a yeast infection???? :D

BV is Bacterial Vaginosis. It's just another bacterial type infection you can get pretty easily from stuff getting in there that shouldn't. :eek:

TruckerPete

10-12-2011, 06:17 PM

BV is Bacterial Vaginosis. It's just another bacterial type infection you can get pretty easily from stuff getting in there that shouldn't. :eek:

Ah yes. That's the one that smells really bad. I knew that, I was just drawing a blank at the acronym. Thanks! :p

Magdlyn

10-13-2011, 09:26 PM

So what's this about wedding plans that you talked about in another blog??

BlackUnicorn

10-14-2011, 10:41 PM

BV is Bacterial Vaginosis. It's just another bacterial type infection you can get pretty easily from stuff getting in there that shouldn't. :eek:

You mean, like, fists :eek:?

So what's this about wedding plans that you talked about in another blog??

Oh yeah, I didn't mean to hijack Annabel's blog.

All the major issues have been decided, like the location, theme, dresses, guest list etc. But definitely not happening next summer, since there's no time. Actually, we have one glaring issue still - whether to have a trampoline or not (I just want to add some bounce to the festivities! :D). Actually, Vanilla wants a really traditional affair, and I'm like hon, there's nothing trad about as at all, so why fake it if you can't make it?

We were actually supposed to wait if/when we get the whole gay marriage amendment, but probably want to have kidlets before that happens (if ever), which means the actual ceremony will be super lame (involving signing a paper, hooray!). The marriage talks are actually the logical follow-up of the kid talks we've been having, so while it's a big thing, it's not actually that big a thing in itself but more of a step on the way to getting what we want (a family). If it weren't for the massive legal perk of intra-family adoption, I personally wouldn't much care for the whole institution. But I have some savings so why not tie the knot with style, if tied it must be :cool:?

Magdlyn

10-15-2011, 12:38 AM

Are you saying you and Vanilla can't get married in Finland, but you can get a civil union (as you said, sign a paper)?

nycindie

10-15-2011, 04:00 AM

BU, how long have you and VanillaIce been seeing each other?

BlackUnicorn

10-15-2011, 09:25 AM

Are you saying you and Vanilla can't get married in Finland, but you can get a civil union (as you said, sign a paper)?

Yup. The only real differences are that civil partners can't adopt from outside the family and can't have a shared last name. Oh yes, and the stupid signing thing :).

BU, how long have you and VanillaIce been seeing each other?

5 months. But hey, the wedding will take place summer 2013 the earliest :o.

BlackUnicorn

10-15-2011, 10:28 AM

1) Vanilla asked me what would be the worst thing that could happen in our relationship. I didn't have to think twice - violence or threat of violence would make it impossible for us to live together. She pondered it for a while and said that me suddenly turning secretive, starting to lie about my goings, hiding my screen when online, lying about who I'm talking to. Like why I would need to lie and hide stuff if we have agreed to be open and honest?

2) We had our first disagreement with Vanilla yesterday. Not a real fight, but like something that we needed to discuss. It felt weird but good at the same time, like the Real Everyday Life is finally making an entrance into our lives together.

3) My mum informed me that I am "murdering her love for me", while insisting on being such a "bloody dyke" :rolleyes:.

Vanilla's mum, on the other hand, doesn't have anything against lesbian couples PER SE. However, she thinks that people should follow their reason instead of their hearts in making decisions about beginning a romantic relationship. In our specific case, Vanilla should have been content to stay friends with me despite there being mutual love between us, and waited for the Right Man to come along :rolleyes:.

I don't know which brand of bigotism is worse, really.

4) I've decided to start studying this whole relationship thing, to better prepare me for a future with Vanilla and to help me get back on track with Moonlight.

rory

10-15-2011, 10:57 AM

3) My mum informed me that I am "murdering her love for me", while insisting on being such a "bloody dyke" :rolleyes:.

Vanilla's mum, on the other hand, doesn't have anything against lesbian couples PER SE. However, she thinks that people should follow their reason instead of their hearts in making decisions about beginning a romantic relationship. In our specific case, Vanilla should have been content to stay friends with me despite there being mutual love between us, and waited for the Right Man to come along :rolleyes:.

Oh yeah. Parents can be just great. :rolleyes:

AnnabelMore

10-15-2011, 01:20 PM

5 months. But hey, the wedding will take place summer 2013 the earliest :o.

I'm sure you weren't eagerly waiting on my approval, but for the record I think 2 years sounds like a reasonable amount of time. :)

Btw, I like the wording in your signature line.

BlackUnicorn

10-16-2011, 12:57 PM

I'm sure you weren't eagerly waiting on my approval, but for the record I think 2 years sounds like a reasonable amount of time. :)

Of course I was! I live on validation!

Yep, August 2013 it is. The organizing (location reservations etc.) will take at least a year, and the month is pretty important for me. Plus, we are now focusing on moving into our new apt (complete with TWO SEPARATE rooms! I long for the days when there were actual doors in-between spaces in my place of habitation), and maybe getting another furry feline baby.

Btw, I like the wording in your signature line.

Hah, nice that you noticed! I wanted to somehow convey that the amour side of poly is still going strong for me, although technically I have only one relationship with sex and all the jazz going on atm.

BlackUnicorn

10-16-2011, 01:57 PM

As promised, I have seriously started to study this relationship-y stuff with Mr. Pekka Hämäläinen, who has extensive experience as a couple's and family therapist and whose written a book Hyvä parisuhde (A Good Relationship), beginning with listing the most dangerous relationship myths people cling onto to the detriment of everyone involved.

This pondering is based on my own reflections over his text, which is why I, against all good practice, will not reference him on page-by-page basis. Even the wording of the myths is my own.

Myth number one:

People don't change. The beginning of the relationship provides all the tools, knowledge and understanding required to make the relationship last.

His rebuttal:

People change all the time, every day, for the entire duration of their lives. In the normal course of every relationship, there's a phase of individualization and independence, and a person going through that phase may experience strong feelings of hatred and bitterness towards their partner, whom they perceive as dull, clingy and needy, a hamper to their personal happiness and growth.

In the first phase of the relationship, the symbiosis phase, people find their partners fascinating beyond measure. Compared to the all-night-long philosophical discussions of the first year together, many people are sorely disappointed when their time together with their partners starts resembling two strangers hanging out in the same space at the same time, both safe from eye-contact behind their laptops. While going through the individualization phase, it can seem that you are sharing your life and bed with a complete stranger. Many at this point connect the dots and realize that in the initial NRE phase, they have chosen a partner who's incompatible. It's easy to forget that the getting-to-know-you -phase doesn't end with "I do" or moving in together; it continues throughout the relationship, and requires even more time and energy when the love hormones have evened out.

During the symbiosis stage, partners know the limits of their relationship - what it can take and what is a deal-breaker. When one partner then hits the individualization stage, it might seem to the partner left to observe from the sidewalk that they can count on absolutely nothing anymore. The understanding that was created in the beginning of the relationship is starting to show cracks, the cards have gone up in the air and there's no saying if the relationship will continue or not. Typical of this phase are infidelity crises, trial separations and counseling together and separately. The limits of the relationship are under intense re-evaluation and people start asking themselves; Can we make it through this? Even now? Wouldn't it be easier at this point just to break up already? Can our love ever be the same it was?

The partners may feel cheated. Their images of their partner do not correspond with reality. I have been deceived. I can no longer trust anything they say. Change is, however, an inbuilt feature of all people and relationships. Instead of running into rash conclusions about the future sustainability of the relationship, it might pay out to take a step back and wait what emerges after the dust has settled. If one chickens out of the hard getting-to-know-the-new-you -work at this point, they may never get to enjoy the perks of a relationship that has weathered the individualization crisis - stronger partnership and often even a new honeymoon phase.

Magdlyn

10-16-2011, 02:18 PM

Nice insights, BU.

TruckerPete

10-18-2011, 04:13 PM

Hrm. That sounds suspiciously like what Indigo and I are navigating right now. Thank you for sharing.

AnnabelMore

10-18-2011, 07:33 PM

Thanks for posting this, BU, gonna steal some of it to explore thoughts on my own blog...

BlackUnicorn

10-21-2011, 02:10 PM

Steal away! I'll post more once I find the time to really articulate all the thoughts I've been having around his text.

In the meanwhile, a small revelation: my recent difficulties with the whole libido thing are not so much disinterest in sex per se, but rather specifically about me not getting it on. It's increasingly difficult for me to become aroused, and the situation is not helped by the fact that I get anxious if I feel I need to perform for the other person to feel good about the encounter and themselves.

I have zero difficulty with making others feel all sugar and spice and all things nice, but my erogenous zones tend to hibernate and shy away from touching. It's still possible for me to become aroused, but I need a reaction from my partner - it doesn't happen on my own, or when I'm the one being touched :(. And when I'm all dried up and worried about what to say and how to escape the situation, all touching is rather painful.

Luckily, I did manage to talk to Vanilla about this. She had been worried about an imbalance in the time we spend on each other sexually, with her getting the majority of attention and effort. I told her it's immensely liberating to be able to give her pleasure even when I'm not feeling that sexual on my own, and because the pressure is off, I often manage to get in the game myself, too, later in the process.

I'm not suffering the least bit but I do realize this problem-o-mine needs to be addressed if I am to build lasting sexual relationships. I hope the medication will eventually even out, and we managed some small progress with Vanilla already last night, with some non-goal oriented touching, and although it was a bit painful in the end, it didn't dampen the mood. I still feel there's a long way before I feel like even remotely ready to be sexual with anyone else, but progress is progress.

Minxxa

10-21-2011, 02:28 PM

BU,

It's great that you're doing some non-goal oriented touching. :)

Have you looked into sensate focus? Basically, it's just that, non-goal oriented touching, and relaxing with your partner. If you get a chance to google it, I would, I think if nothing else it can be something you can do for each other that should hopefully add no performance anxiety. :)

BlackUnicorn

01-07-2012, 02:36 PM

So it's been awhile. At some point last year I just sort of dropped out of the forum - maybe I was becoming too engrossed with stuff here and it was emotional exhaustion with yet another story of hurt feelings and frustrations and people behaving badly. At least partly I felt there was nothing much to report, with me and Vanilla being sexually monogamous. Last night we stayed over at the place of Vanilla's former FWB, and we had sex, which was fun and sweet and refreshing. I hope he comes to visit us. I still don't have the energy to sex up anyone but Vanilla one-on-one, but in a group setting I can hang back more and wait for my turn without all the intensity I have a hard time building up with anyone else. She and I manage to get it on about every other day, which I find essential for our connection. It also works miracles against stress and crankiness! I feel our relationship rests on a really solid basis. I trust her. While our romantic relationship with Moonlight has ended, I still love and respect him as a friend and enjoy spending time with his children. And I miss Sweetheart terribly, it's been a month since I got to talk to him.

ray

01-07-2012, 07:44 PM

Hey, It's good to hear from you! Glad you're doing well. I know what you mean about the emotional exhaustion. It can be draining to read so many stories of people in pain. I have to limit myself to how much I can read of those. Otherwise, it just makes me sad. I feel like I mostly post on the Word Association Game, lol. :) Are you and Sweetheart still dating?

Since I decided that I was probably going mono, I, too, felt like there 'wasn't much to report.' But I know that I enjoy your posts, so I hope you still come and update sometimes. :)

BlackUnicorn

01-09-2012, 08:51 AM

Are you and Sweetheart still dating?

Not dating per se, since they are still basically monogamous with his wife. But we keep in touch intermittently and I do feel very refreshed and loved after talking to him, no matter how rarely that happens.

But I know that I enjoy your posts, so I hope you still come and update sometimes. :)

Likewise!

Just wanted to muse how after the threesome I felt very content and happy to be sleeping with two people in the same bed, cuddling them both. There is something I feel that's very natural and right in a three-people set up, which is something I sorely miss. I know it's not very functional to prize structures over relationships, but if an actual triad opportunity would ever present itself where I would know the participants beforehand and have established relationships with them, I would jump on it. In the meanwhile, I'm happy just to swing three-way, too.

On other news: I'm starting krav maga and salsa this year! I'm in crappy physical condition, so we'll see if I survive.

BlackUnicorn

01-10-2012, 09:18 PM

Waking up today I could see immediately that something was bothering Vanilla, and after a bit of probing I learned that she wasn't satisfied by our sex life. Turns out she prefers three-hour-fuck-your-brains-out-sessions twice a week to quickies every other day. I've tried to initiate sex every other day since my libido more than halved, and since she wasn't initiating, I thought we were good on that department. No such luck! However, now I know better. Communication! It works!

In the meanwhile, I'm worried that I am growing over-excited over the possibility of having a man in our lives again. Evidence in favour of me having to take some cold showers to curb my enthusiasm: 1) he lives far away 2) he is skeptical towards the whole poly thang, and doesn't want any of that in his life 3) I barely know him.

On the bright side of life, I just survived my first ever krav maga class!

MonoVCPHG

01-11-2012, 01:38 AM

I just survived my first ever krav maga class!

Very cool!

ray

01-11-2012, 02:11 AM

Congrats on the krav maga class! I hope you get to have many more! :) what kind of stuff did you get to do?

BlackUnicorn

01-11-2012, 09:34 AM

Basic stances, basic punches and basic kick. Plus we learned how to free ourselves from a wrist grap. I'm training with the fiance of a friend of mine, so it's a bit embarrassing, since I don't know him very well. AND I'm the only girl on the class. When we did push-ups I was like "Hmm, the instructor didn't specifically say we could do girlie push-ups, but he didn't exactly say we couldn't, so I'm gonna do them anyway". Turns out I have zero upper body strength :eek:.

It's funny to see how definitions travel over time. I just finished reading a book "Breaking the Barriers to Desire - New Approaches to Multiple Relationships". It was an edited article collection, with a glossary in the end, compiled with the help of alt.polyamory mailing list. The book was published in 1995, and it gives the definition of a triad as follows:

"Polyamorous relationship consisting of three people."

whereas triangle:

"triad where each person is involved with each of the others, with no large differences in the degree of these involvements"

and vee:

"Relationship between three people where one person is closer to the other two than they are to each other. For instance, the 'pivot' of the vee may be the primary, within this relationship, of the other two, and they may be each other's secondary partner. Contrast with triangle."

BlackUnicorn

01-12-2012, 05:34 PM

I have only now come to realize why it is so important that you have a good foundation for poly. I used to think that foundations were only for those people who had decided to open a previously monogamous relationship. I didn't have to worry about any of that jazz. Since breaking up with my ex-bf in 2010, all of my relationships have been open from the get-go. So there was none of that "going at the pace of the slowest person" and GASP, communication! needed, right?

Now that I think of it, I guess it has taken me and Vanilla some six months to really build the foundation we need. I just noticed my interest in polyamory and multiple relationships waning, having harder time giving myself to others when I felt I wanted to immerse myself in my relationship with Vanilla. Talking about a merger there. I named it my 'nesting phase'. Looking back, I would call it foundation-building time. We have a solid partnership for life, a home harbour which makes expeditions to the unknown conceivable. I don't feel threatened and obsess about what any one new person is thinking of me, how things might be going, what if I like them more than they like me etc. I can just be and enjoy the ride, because I have a homebase that I don't need to question, which will be there even if all of my other relationships from now on come to naught.

Having a primary with whom I feel we have a real partnership with, that I trust immensely, that I can be vulnerable and annoying and insecure with, has made me a better potential secondary for anyone falling my way.

nycindie

01-12-2012, 11:16 PM

That's great. You sound very grounded.

For me, I need to establish a strong foundation in my relationship with myself, because I don't want a partner or primary. Or, I am my own primary, if you look at it that way. Things have been emotionally up and down for me the past few months and I noticed that when I am shaky, I don't have the energy to nurture my friendships and casual relationships, much less any hot euphoric love muffins that might come my way. It's such a balancing act sometimes!

opalescent

01-13-2012, 01:15 AM

hot euphoric love muffins

New favorite phrase! :D

BlackUnicorn

01-13-2012, 01:55 PM

New favorite phrase! :D

Mine too!

Sadly, I think I might not be very good with being my own primary. I wonder if that somehow fuels my desire for poly. This whole exploration for me started with two serious life-threatening illness scares in my little family, when I realized I might lose the people I care about the most, and that I should fortify myself with as big a family as possible.

I've never lived alone or much cared for being alone. I try to cultivate non-codependence with Vanilla, but if she goes to see her family out-of-town, I go to be with my mum, instead of hanging out alone in an empty apt. Another couple we know have been together since they were 13, and they are unable to spend nights apart. That is something that seriously hampers their lives. If they can't be together, serious panic attacks occur. I don't want to end up like that :(.

BlackUnicorn

01-14-2012, 11:47 AM

So, after a long discussion, me and Vanilla have come to realize that we have more love to share. Ideally, we would like to bring a third into our relationships. We would all love each other equally, it would not be just about sex, but about sharing our whole lives together. We would live together and there would be no individual couples, but all interactions would be between the three of us, because that's just fair. Except of course Vanilla and I could still have sex just the two of us, but the third shouldn't feel the need to. And we would be rock-solid poly-fi of course, because really, our love should be enough for anyone.

No, really :D. We would like to make new friends, since our friends from the time before we met have pretty much all moved away. FWBs are especially welcome. Happy and satisfied as we are, we both still do like men. A shared male secondary would be awesome, or at least someone who could be a secondary to one of us and an FWB to the other or whatever. Or just someone who wouldn't be averse to the idea of hanging out together with us.

Our game plan is to seduce - scratch that, befriend - the eligible bachelour living upstairs.

On other news, I'm going out on a date! Whippee. He's a somewhat older and divorced eco-hippie vegan. Should be fun.

opalescent

01-14-2012, 02:52 PM

LOL!! You got me BU. I thought for a second has she lost her effing mind? Hee Hee!

Befriending *cough* seducing the bachelor above sounds like a fine plan to me.

AnnabelMore

01-14-2012, 05:39 PM

I swear, I almost shuddered! Awesome juxtaposition of the wrong and the right way to go about this sort of thing. :) Good luck on the date!

nycindie

01-14-2012, 07:09 PM

Har-har. Clever.

BlackUnicorn

01-17-2012, 09:30 PM

I'm not a big fan of calling aggression towards members of a group because they are members of that group phobia of any kind, but alternative words are hard to come by. None really describes the mix of judgementalism, scandalism and disgust many people exhibit when they hear that somebody has more than one partner and does it openly.

I volunteer for a youth project, and today while cleaning up and closing the place down for the night, another volunteer started talking about a man she knows, who is involved both with the mother of his child and another woman, whom he has known much longer. The three of them together with their child speak of themselves and act like a family. The following discussion centered around the exact nature of the women's involvement with each other and their motivations for staying in this relationship.

The group leader suggested that perhaps both women were too tangled up and needy to really let go of the man. I started thinking how people would perceive a possible third romantic interest in my life, who would live closeby unlike Sweetheart, and perhaps end up living near to us or with us. If it were a man, would they gossip about how what she really needed was a real man anyway? Or would they speak with mixed envy and judgementalism about the man who has two women at his beck and call, a real-life harem? Would they go around in circles arguing whether the guy was involved with both of us or just me? Would the reaction be any different if I started a relationship with another woman? I suspect so.

When the volunteer suggested that the women might be involved with each other as well, the leader shuddered and raised her voice in disgust; "You mean they ALL sleep together in the SAME bed and like?". The apprehension and condemnation was so clear in her voice that I cringed. I am really disappointed with myself for not speaking up. Would I have acted any differently if they didn't know about Vanilla and were discussing bi women like that? Is that how they would talk about me if they knew? Would it change their thoughts about me? Very likely so. For my own peace and comfort, I kept my mouth shut.

I've always been of the camp; "I live my life and act just normal and people can think what they want about me and my relationships, I don't care". Now I realized that I do care. I don't want people speculating what I am getting out of a poly situation, if I am being used and just scared of being alone. I don't want people to speculate like that about Vanilla. I want to be open about the people I love, sleep and live with, and go to the day care center and be like: "This is our child, SpongeBob SquarePants. This is my spouse, VanillaIce. This is my/our partner, RandomDudeWhoLivesWithUs. Please put into your notes that any one of us might show up to pick up Bob."

It would be so much easier to present RandomDude as our sperm donor, father figure to Bob or our family friend, not say anything and maybe pass him off as a relative, or perhaps even the new, post-break up partner of one of us and thus Bob's step dad. Not say anything and just let people assume. But now I realize I don't want to mind my own business. I don't want any possible future children feeling like they have to keep secrets for adults and not be honest about who sleeps in which bed in their home. I don't want them knowing that while their family is different, it should never be mentioned of to anyone but closest, dearest friends.

I know there are a lot of people who feel that being too in-your-face about poly is violating another person's privacy, but I feel that if I am going to be in your face lesbian and tell the day care center staff that I am married to Bob's biomum, then poly is not that different.

rory

01-18-2012, 08:25 AM

The trouble I have with the whole "in-your-face-argument" is that nobody considers a woman to be violating anybody's privacy by going to the day care with her husband and introducing him as her husband. Hell, pretty much nobody considers her to do that even if she tries to convert each non-straight/mono person into hetero-monogamy.

BlackUnicorn

01-18-2012, 11:07 AM

Thanks for the support, rory. What I was thinking but didn't have the nerve to say :).

Yesterday we had a talk with Vanilla about being/staying out and what kind of Do Ask, We'll Tell policy we want for our eventual married life with possible kids. I was first shocked, then amused and eventually depressed by the reaction towards the triad/vee and started having all sorts of "OMG we'll never be accepted" ideas in my head.

But today, my dearest FWB of all time (I've had one, but, you know, he is the best) sent me a message which ended with: "My life's definitely better for having you in it." My mood instantly shot through the roof. I am so blessed to have such varied, unique loves in my life.

SNeacail

01-18-2012, 05:38 PM

"This is our child, SpongeBob SquarePants. This is my spouse, VanillaIce. This is my/our partner, RandomDudeWhoLivesWithUs. Please put into your notes that any one of us might show up to pick up Bob."

I have always believed that sticking to the facts saves a lot of backlash. Some folks will speculate and gossip, no matter what. However, it takes a whole lot of wind out of their sails when there's no "secret" to share. Not to say that daycare workers need to know the inner workings of your relationship. Most mono folks don't do this - "This is my husband and kids father, but he's sleeping on the couch because ...". Once you have kids, there are very few secrets anyway :D. My kids teachers always knew when my husband and I were fighting.

BlackUnicorn

01-20-2012, 06:24 PM

Once you have kids, there are very few secrets anyway :D. My kids teachers always knew when my husband and I were fighting.

Haha, I can imagine the teacher-kid conversation:
"Mummy is coming to pick me up from school today, because Daddy moved to Grandma's, because he met this lady and now there is a boundary break and everybody communicated and now Mummy needs compersion."

A guy I had the hugest crush on in highschool removed me from his friends on Facebook. Not that we communicated in any way before or after I asked to befriend him, but I was mainly curious to see where he lived, if he was dating anyone, just your regular stalking people from highschool-stuff. But somehow it was much worse because I used to be so into him, and it felt like rejection, which it mostly likely wasn't meant to be. He isn't even an active user for that matter. In highschool I felt like I was an outsider, definitively not one of the cool kids, which he of course was - hence the crush.

I asked to befriend a guy I met in class, purely based on attraction I felt towards him. He hasn't responded, which will make it really awkward to meet him in class next week. I feel stupid to have asked to befriend him based on such a brief talk (I need to defend myself by saying that he has well over 1500 friends, so he doesn't seem one of those "close friends and family only" FB users). Rejection hurts even if it's just virtual and impersonal. I think all of my feelings of being a geeky outcast no guy from among the popular crowd could ever possibly want to date and who will die alone and unwanted activated all at the same time. Weird how you think you would have gotten over something and then something small happens and it turns out you haven't :eek:.

opalescent

01-20-2012, 07:21 PM

Yes, I'm on a rejection streak, to be a bit overdramatic about it. It does hurt, even when the rejections are for 'good' reasons. I am attempting to accept the pain, sadness and hurt - something I am not great at. But ignoring it would just cause those feelings to rebound stronger in some other situation. I've had that happen and it is mortifying. Now returning to your regularly scheduled blog...

BlackUnicorn

01-22-2012, 09:25 PM

Yes, I'm on a rejection streak, to be a bit overdramatic about it. It does hurt, even when the rejections are for 'good' reasons.

:( Poor babby. Dating is brutal.

Just for those of you who are not mired knee-deep in Finnish politics, I am happy to announce that an openly gay and married candidate has just been selected for the final round of the presidentail elections! Might take a few decades still for openly poly, but we'll see.

In a group I attend very irregularly, one member totally dominates all discussion. He interrupts and speaks out of turn, often drowning other voices with his. He is very argumentative and especially prone to interrupt women speaking. He is so obnoxious that he is making others in the group uncomfortable and I seriously wish he would leave, or at least start attending less frequently.

I started thinking what to do in a poly situation where one partner is so toxic that they poison the whole set of relationships around them and make others want to leave. Is there a point when the poly wisdom of going at the pace of the one who is struggling the most turns on its head and everybody ends up struggling at the pace of the one who is the most aggressive in getting their needs for being heard met? What to do in a situation where one partner and their concerns and problems take the center stage every time with total disregard and disrespect to everyone else?

Poly isn't a democracy, but is there a point when the misery of many outweighs the comfort of one? I'm not talking about mono/poly situations only in here. Can the group, tribe, cluster whatever veto one partner together, or is that just simple old-school bullying and totally antithetical to the spirit of ethical non-monogamy? I know that ultimately everyone is only responsible for their own choices in continuing a relationship, but I'm wondering is there a point in the group process where the domineering individual could still be steered towards mutual respect and willingness to listen in order to understand, instead of listen in order to gather ammunition for counter-arguments?

BlackUnicorn

02-29-2012, 10:28 PM

A little over a month since I posted and so much has happened. I used to think I'm no good posting when nothing's happening, but it seems I suck at posting when there's a heap of things going on, too.

So I find myself in a triad again. Which is a challenge, really. The eligible bachelour in question (not the one who lives upstairs, thank heavens) is in his first relationship ever at the tender age of 25. I don't know if I'd want my first relationship to be in a triad. He has trouble grasping the concept of poly, and doesn't really believe things like this can last. I've tried to explain that it's not the duration of a any given relationship that matters but whether the people in it were in it 100% when it was a relationship or just passing time in wait of something better. I think there's a clear difference between "I want to be with you forever" and "I want to be with you right now". He says he probably loves me, but doesn't really know what love feels like. I told him to give it a year.

Anyhoo, he shall henceforth be known as Cookie.

Vanilla has another beau as well. Do you know the feeling when you've met someone new and you're not sure if they really understand what poly is about and wonder how to get it through to them? Well I can tell you that inviting them over so they can see you with other partners and hoping this will make it more tangible is a fucking bad idea. He got jealous, drank too much, threatened with suicide and acted as if Vanilla was his sole property and possession. Not cool.

Did I mention Vanilla is talking almost daily over FB with a friend from school who is depressed, unpredictable, unstable and clearly interested. Did I mention he's also violent? I think Vanilla might have a syndrome of being desperately drawn to hopeless cases.

Phy

03-01-2012, 06:28 AM

Hey there, first time for me responding to your story, thanks for sharing so far, I enjoyed reading it. And good luck with your new relationship even though it sounds like as I would be totally stressed in that situation ;) But he should do reasonably well with a more experienced partner in the new poly realm, so I will be rooting for you.

What crossed my mind while reading the second part of your entry, don't you feel worried when Vanilla gets involved with those kind of people? I can't imagine myself staying uninvolved because I would constantly fear for her safety. And I realized that this could invite some trouble because I may invade her private space and appear as controlling and meddlesome. How do you handle a situation when you know that a possible partner or interest of your partner may not be that healthy for her?

BlackUnicorn

03-07-2012, 03:28 PM

Hey there, first time for me responding to your story, thanks for sharing so far, I enjoyed reading it.

Aww, thanks!

And good luck with your new relationship even though it sounds like as I would be totally stressed in that situation ;) But he should do reasonably well with a more experienced partner in the new poly realm, so I will be rooting for you.

It's a struggle. It's actually more of a struggle between Vanilla and Cookie, more of that below.

How do you handle a situation when you know that a possible partner or interest of your partner may not be that healthy for her?

Vanilla's had her share of crazy partners for sure. Her ex tried to kill her and now they are best of friends; another ex tried to kill her friend and now they are slowly rebuilding a connection, which delights her greatly. People can change, and some people make better friends than partners, I guess. Especially if someone's been struggling for years with mental health issues and that's all you've ever seen of them, I think it's fair to give a second change to them if they say and demonstrate that they are now better.

Bottom line - I am highly suspicious of some of her more crazy friends, but I trust her in that just like in the past, she knew when to get out of a crazy situation and was able to get out, she will do so even now. I did request she and Pistachio (pseudonym for her new boyfriend, the one who was so out of line previously) not drink when they are together, because Chio's antidepressants and booze just don't seem to work together.

I'm a bit wary discussing Vanilla's problems in here, because they are her problems and she can go and talk about them in her own blog if she wants to. She is struggling, though, in a way I have compassion for but can't really do much about, since it's not about our relationship but her relationships with Chio and Cookie that are stressing her out. I try not to get caught in a middlewoman role between her and Cookie, though, since I still think triad is made out of three individual relationships. While they are fighting I occasionally try to lighten the mood and steer the conversation to calmer waters, and fail miserably every time. So let them work it out on their own. I was watching Supernatural, Season 1, where Sam comments to Dean regarding Dean's ex: "So the two of you worked things out, huh?" Dean: "We'll still be working things out when we're 90".

With Cookie we are now in a more peaceful place, which means I would like to have him near more than Vanilla does. With all the struggle, Vanilla would like to have more time with me alone for just relaxing and hanging out. Vanilla found about this great study opportunity some 30 minutes south, but is reluctant to go because that would mean either commuting to school everyday or moving in there part-time. I really think this is what she should be doing with her life, and feel sad to see her let that opportunity go, but the more I push the more she feels I'm trying to drive her away to be with Cookie, which isn't true :(.

Polywaw

03-07-2012, 07:48 PM

I have to say, seeing a unicorn and understand what they're going through is really refreshing.

As unicorn 'hunters' (seekers?), we've come across many women who are searching, but it turns out they're attached and just looking for a playmate, something that was left out of a lot of profiles (back when we did some online searching).

Began to lose belief that they existed. Then it sort of clicked, most couples aren't just looking for a unicorn. They've found one (bi, attractive, open to triad chick) and are with them. They're looking for two.

Thank you for writing and sharing!

BlackUnicorn

03-07-2012, 08:18 PM

Then it sort of clicked, most couples aren't just looking for a unicorn. They've found one (bi, attractive, open to triad chick) and are with them. They're looking for two.

Thanks for reading, and I think you are on to something there. I said to Moonlight that his problem with poly is that he is trying to hit the jackpot twice. He already has an amazing wife, and is trying to find an amazing gf.

I no longer ID as an unicorn, since I am happily partnered with a woman for life. It just so happens that my current boyfriend is also involved with my partner, but I don't need them to be a couple for us to be a couple with the bf.

Polywaw

03-07-2012, 08:24 PM

It was a big step for us to stop actively searching and pining after a third. I've spent some time the last few days here updating and putting us out there, but it's more of trying to be part of the poly community.

From reading so much of this site, it doesn't really seem like a couple goes out, finds a unicorn, brings her home and happily ever after. 'Normal' (and by that I mean the average, straight, American, mono relationship) hardly ever work that way (maybe anymore). These relationship seem highly complicated and very hard to anticipate.

For many of you with some level of success (and I consider myself successful in this endeavor: happy couple, a happy triad would just add to it) it seems to almost happen by accident.

Best of luck.

BlackUnicorn

03-11-2012, 04:02 PM

So, it appears I have turned into an NRE monster.

The weekend was spent fighting, mostly. First Cookie and Vanilla had a massive two-hour fight, and I had a panic attack. I've come to realize I shy away from conflicts, which isn't necessarily the best pattern to have when you're poly. They slept in separate beds and I literally felt torn apart, having to choose with whom to sleep. I even contemplated getting the one-person camp bed out to circumvent the whole issue.

It was a good fight, though, although Vanilla is still really hurt and kinda pissed off that Cookie hasn't apologized even though she said she was hurt by what he said. They agreed to be metamours from now on. Metamours who cuddle and occasionally sleep together, that is. So we're in a tree now, I guess. Or a vead. Not a triad but not exactly a vee either.

Vanilla was upset because although in theory, she was supposed to be Cookie's gf too, all the affection and the attention from him was flowing solely in my direction. When they talked about it previously, Cookie said that he wanted to be partners, not metamours. Turns out he was only saying that because he thought that if he only dated me, that would create a drift between me and Vanilla.

So, after the catastrophic Friday night, things were quickly looking up for our polycircle. We went to a house party together all three of us. After the party we were supposed to go with Vanilla to another party downtown. After we came home from party number one, Vanilla confessed she would like to sleep with Cookie. It didn't happen, thanks to the beers Cookie had consumed earlier that night, but I sort of was left with the impression that Vanilla wanted to continue hanging out with him too. What I did was locate my desire to continue hanging out with him in Vanilla, to make it okay for him to come to the party number two with us. So when he invited himself to the party number two, I was more than happy to oblige.

So, to the party we went, and I had a lovely time with Cookie. We had been in the club for about an hour when I started wondering why Vanilla was taking so long outside having her cigarette. I looked for her in the club in vain, and then asked her friend if she had seen Vanilla. "She went home". WHAT?!?

An angry text/phone fight ensued. I resent people pulling histrionics instead of coming up front to tell what's eating at them. Vanilla maintains she's happy that she did it, since it was the only way to get my attention, because according to her, I spent the entire night lost in Cookie's throat anyway. I guess she was right, although I did try to involve her. I've talked before how she should signal the exact moment when she feels neglected, so I can learn what I'm doing wrong and start paying more attention to her in tangible ways she can see and appreciate. She thinks she shouldn't have to beg for my attention if we are supposed to be together anyway.

Vanilla left the party because she was feeling physically sick because of all the jealousy and neglect, and my shouting didn't improve matters :(. She feels that throughout this month, she's constantly been asking us to slow things down, for me to pay attention to her, for us to have more time alone, for Cookie not to start moving into our place, and none of the talking has had any effect one my behaviour. I act really impulsively and move things along fast on the best of days, and especially so when I'm falling for someone. So I'm an NRE demon, and can't handle it.

I've suggested before we stop seeing Cookie together and I only hang out with him when Vanilla's unavailable. She doesn't want that because she holds Cookie dear and enjoys time spent among the three of us. However, their connection is not strong enough for her to want date time with him alone. She feels it's unfair that because I can't stop being an arse and neglecting her, nobody gets to have threesome time (not in the way of sex but in general hanging-out-together way).

We've tried to hatch a game plan for us to move along from this point.
1. We calm things down for now, which means no time between the three of us at least until we come back from a holiday we've been waiting for a really long time.
2. Both get to have two dates per week with their guys: one night a week I go to Cookie's and Pistachio comes over at our place, the second night Cookie comes over and Vanilla sleeps at Chio's. One night a week (during the weekend, most likely) Cookie comes over to our place and we hang out all together.
3. We make specific agreements over which functions we shall attend all three together and which are just for Vanilla and me. Vanilla's said I don't keep to these agreements and I think I either simply forget or maybe want to forget what was agreed to before. So I hope these will be really specific in the future.
4. I also hope Vanilla will start pointing out to me when I'm out of line. She feels this is unfair for her, but I hope she would be willing to do it for as long as I get out of this crazy NRE muddle.

KyleKat

03-11-2012, 04:22 PM

What a crazy story. While it really sucks that you guys are going through growing pains it is nice to see others having similar problems to what I do. Feeling neglected even when you aren't necessarily being neglected is a hard jealousy to overcome. I can identify with vanilla big time. I constantly go after the damsel in distress and I get jealous when I am ignored even if it's just perceived and not real. Ironically, I have no issue with what they do when I am not there.

BrigidsDaughter

03-11-2012, 07:10 PM

Ah, the dreaded NRE monster. Runic Wolf really had to beat me over the head with the reality stick on occasion. It does get better, but Vanilla really does need to accept that NRE is like a drug and you will occasionally need her to reign you in. Runic Wolf had a hard time with feeling neglected even when I was present with him. It's funny because he's in NRE with Loveleigh and instead of it bothering me, I'm enjoying it.

NovemberRain

03-11-2012, 09:06 PM

I'm wondering if you use something like google calendar to schedule, and if that could help you remember the specifics you've agreed to for who at what functions?
Sounds like you have a good plan.

Anneintherain

03-12-2012, 07:41 AM

Seems like scheduling would be paramount which it seems like you've tackled. YES Vanilla needs to be her own advocate, and it is too bad that she isn't eager for that role, but I can get the reluctance, as I like to think my partners can tell when I'm uncomfortable and that if they are paying attention they will do something about it. And that is great, but I still need to speak up if it turns out they DON'T get it.

Is it possible that besides two dates a week you schedule a communication/reading of a certain book about poly/communication/relational date night that you can share with Vanilla or perhaps Cookie too (or anybody else who could benefit from it you know)? Going over a certain chapter where you can discuss feelings or practice skills that will keep another night like V disappearing from the club from happening again because you are all able to better speak up?

BlackUnicorn

03-13-2012, 09:56 AM

I'm wondering if you use something like google calendar to schedule, and if that could help you remember the specifics you've agreed to for who at what functions?

:o We have the stick-and-stones version of GoogleCalendar hanging on our wall, and inspired by your suggestion we agreed to put down dates/functions that are just for the two of us with a special code on our family planner, so no chance for miscommunication/forgetting later!

Is it possible that besides two dates a week you schedule a communication/reading of a certain book about poly/communication/relational date night that you can share with Vanilla or perhaps Cookie too (or anybody else who could benefit from it you know)? Going over a certain chapter where you can discuss feelings or practice skills that will keep another night like V disappearing from the club from happening again because you are all able to better speak up?

That is a lovely idea, thank you! I think we will start with Pekka Hämäläinen's book I mentioned earlier, and maybe progress to a more lesbian-specific book if that goes well.

rory

03-14-2012, 08:40 AM

I'm wondering, how do you actually behave in NRE? Is that true how Vanilla put it, that you spent a lot of time making out with Cookie?

I don't think it would really solve anything for you to only see Cookie when Vanilla is unavailable. It only puts off dealing with the issue, whether the issue is that she feels uncomfortable seeing you in NRE with somebody else or that you neglect her when you're in NRE with somebody else (do you know which one it is, the issue?).

I don't think it is or should be Vanilla's responsibility to point out when you're being neglectful or inconsiderate towards her. I do think the person in NRE has to put extra effort into making sure she's not being an arse. So is it really the case that you can't tell when you're inconsiderate, or doing something that could make her uncomfortable? Say, you and Cookie met with a good friend of yours and had coffee all three of you. Whatever you think could (reasonably) make your friend uncomfortable, you should consider stuff that may make Vanilla feel uncomfortable. Your friend would assumably be fine with you hugging or kissing briefly a few times, but not with foreplay. So, even if you do sometimes have hot threesomes, it is still the case that when you're out and about Vanilla can feel like a third wheel if you have your tongue in his mouth for the whole evening. Or what do you think?

Oh, and really? You think all three of you moving in at this point would be a good idea? I would be insanely scared to do that after reading all the poly-drama-horrorstories here about what cohabitation leads to when you do it too soon. I think all of the polyfamilies here who've done it succesfully have waited for quite a long time.

Phy

03-14-2012, 09:31 AM

I don't think it is or should be Vanilla's responsibility to point out when you're being neglectful or inconsiderate towards her. I do think the person in NRE has to put extra effort into making sure she's not being an arse. So is it really the case that you can't tell when you're inconsiderate, or doing something that could make her uncomfortable?

I disagree as I know how I can be at times without having any bad intentions. I sometimes don't get it. It's as simple as that. I sometimes need someone pointing out to me what I have caused by behaving like this or like that. Therefore, no, it shouldn't be a responsibility, but it can help to bear in mind if a person is bad at picking up signals from others in special situations. I am often made aware of my shortcomings in regard to interaction with others, and I am extremely thankful to my close friends and family minding it.

Of course I try to mind my partners as much as possible, but there are situations I don't get the reason why someone is upset by something I did or said. And it is helpful to be reminded of that.

Oh, and really? You think all three of you moving in at this point would be a good idea? I would be insanely scared to do that after reading all the poly-drama-horrorstories here about what cohabitation leads to when you do it too soon. I think all of the polyfamilies here who've done it succesfully have waited for quite a long time.

Well, not ALL polyfamilies as we moved in Lin right after deciding on giving poly a go. But maybe that's the obligatory exception to the rule. :rolleyes: But I have to admit that statistically (going by this forum at least) rushing things is a bad idea.

BlackUnicorn

03-14-2012, 11:43 AM

I'm wondering, how do you actually behave in NRE? Is that true how Vanilla put it, that you spent a lot of time making out with Cookie?

:o It's true. I'm a horrible NRE crazy inconsiderate person :(.

I don't think it would really solve anything for you to only see Cookie when Vanilla is unavailable. It only puts off dealing with the issue, whether the issue is that she feels uncomfortable seeing you in NRE with somebody else or that you neglect her when you're in NRE with somebody else (do you know which one it is, the issue?).

I think it's me neglecting her. Yeah, maybe me being an arse is not her responsibility to manage, but I think it would be beneficial to calm things down for a bit, like until the end of this month, before inviting Cookie over to hang with us again. I'm looking forward to our trip together with Vanilla, which will hopefully generate a lot of positive energy and good, happy memories between just the two of us.

Say, you and Cookie met with a good friend of yours and had coffee all three of you. Whatever you think could (reasonably) make your friend uncomfortable, you should consider stuff that may make Vanilla feel uncomfortable. Your friend would assumably be fine with you hugging or kissing briefly a few times, but not with foreplay. So, even if you do sometimes have hot threesomes, it is still the case that when you're out and about Vanilla can feel like a third wheel if you have your tongue in his mouth for the whole evening. Or what do you think?

This is really good advice. Me and Vanilla have very different ideas in what comes to PDA. I tend to think making out in an club environment is okay, whereas she is uncomfortable even with kisses on the mouth in public.

Oh, and really? You think all three of you moving in at this point would be a good idea?

Oh my, where did you get that idea :eek:? Have I posted something crazy I can't remember anymore? Now, def not moving in together anytime soon :D. We all enjoy our space as it is, and we barely just moved in with Vanilla to our new apt.

rory

03-14-2012, 04:12 PM

Oh thank god, I must have then misunderstood you (I think from this)
... for Cookie not to start moving into our place,...

I think taking time for the two of you can't be a bad thing to calm things down. :) Though, I think it would be even more important to Vanilla to see that you can take her into account also when Cookie is around and not just when it's the two of you.

I disagree as I know how I can be at times without having any bad intentions. I sometimes don't get it. It's as simple as that. I sometimes need someone pointing out to me what I have caused by behaving like this or like that. Therefore, no, it shouldn't be a responsibility, but it can help to bear in mind if a person is bad at picking up signals from others in special situations. I am often made aware of my shortcomings in regard to interaction with others, and I am extremely thankful to my close friends and family minding it.
I don't particularly disagree with you. I guess it's about some kind of balance though. It is unreasonable to expect anybody to be completely mindful in every situation, and one should speak up. However, I do think it isn't the best dynamic if one has to constantly prod a person to get their attention/regard. Oh and yeah, you haven't had poly-drama (I knew there must be an exception to the rule and I must be forgetting some situation). :)

BU, good luck :)

BlackUnicorn

03-14-2012, 08:35 PM

Oh thank god, I must have then misunderstood you (I think from this)

Oh, that was more proverbial, as in "He's been staying overnight three nights in a row, don't you think he's practically living in here? Maybe he could go home for a few nights."

BU, good luck :)

Thanks :o. I like to believe it takes practice more than sheer luck, but appreciate the thought.

JaneQSmythe

03-15-2012, 01:08 AM

...I sometimes don't get it. It's as simple as that. I sometimes need someone pointing out to me what I have caused by behaving like this or like that. Therefore, no, it shouldn't be a responsibility, but it can help to bear in mind if a person is bad at picking up signals from others in special situations. I am often made aware of my shortcomings in regard to interaction with others, and I am extremely thankful to my close friends and family minding it...there are situations I don't get the reason why someone is upset by something I did or said. And it is helpful to be reminded of that.

It took me a while, and some frustration, to realize that I had to communicate with Dude in a different "language" than I use with MrS. He is absolutely horrible with picking up any signals that aren't flashing neon with a siren blaring (especially if it is a circumstance where he wouldn't be upset, then he doesn't see why anyone would be upset). Apparently it never occurred to him, or he has never experienced a relationship, where someone could just state their feelings without having a hissy-fit/temper-tantrum and still expect to have those feelings respected. (Not saying this is you, dear BlackUnicorn:p)

An example, the way the house is set up whenever I get up off the couch (where my computer is) and go to the kitchen or beer fridge or library, I pass behind the boys' computer chairs. Dude would inevitable grab me for a kiss/cuddle every time I walked by (either direction). One night I was trying to get stuff done and had to get up every few minutes to go dig up something in the library. After a while the constant interruption was getting distracting so I said "Dude, this is annoying, you don't have to kiss me everytime I get off the couch - I'm trying to get stuff done." Next time - he reaches for me again - now I am getting pissed...

A while later I bring it up as an example of a time when he didn't listen to me and he says "But you weren't really annoyed. You were just teasing." I had to explain in detail that, yes, I was annoyed - he was impeding me getting something done that I felt was important. And the way that you can tell is that I SAID I was annoyed. I asked him if I had ever before TOLD him that I was annoyed? He admitted that, no, I had not, but that HE would not be annoyed by that, so he didn't think that I should be. Grrrr...I told him that in the future if I said I was annoyed he should just take it at face value and not wait until I got mad and made a scene before he believed me.

(It helps to know that I hate confrontation and will NOT make a scene if there are any "outsiders" present.")

Second example of different communication styles. We (all three) are out at a bar at the local casino. We were having fun but the boys were getting drunk...and loud. This is a town where I work so I feel the need to be a little discrete. With MrS - I can raise my eyebrows, give his hand a firm squeeze, and, looking him directly in the eye say quietly, but firmly, "Enough." And the message is conveyed. With Dude it progressed through: "Enough." "Dude you are making me uncomfortable and it is pissing me off." to taking him aside and saying "I am mad at you and if you continue to behave in this fashion I am going to leave." And he still didn't get it because he didn't see a problem...Double Grrrr....we had a LONG discussion about this one the next day.

Now, before you say "Jeesh, how do you put up with THAT!?" A nice thing, though, is that once Dude has processed what you have said - once you spell it out in excrutiating detail as to WHY you were annoyed/upset/mad and what specific behavior you want changed...and he actually understands the effect that it has on you - then it's DONE. You will never have that misunderstanding again, and THAT is nice.

(So ... MrS will change his behavior at that moment because you want him to, but because he may not understand the underlying reasons, you may have to ask again later. Dude doesn't change the behavior until he understands the underlying reasons, but then then he gets the message permanently...each of these has its advantages but I have to learn how to communicate with each person in the way that they understand.)

Sorry for the essay - but I was actually just thinking about this today and your post hit a nerve.

JaneQ

rory

03-15-2012, 10:42 AM

Thanks :o. I like to believe it takes practice more than sheer luck, but appreciate the thought.

I agree with you, so I'll rephrase: good practicing! :p

BlackUnicorn

03-15-2012, 05:56 PM

I've been having a real hard time at school. Yesterday, on Wed, I was supposed to go spend the night with Cookie and Vanilla was going to be with her beau Pistachio. On Tuesday I realized that on Wed, I would be happy to get home after 11 pm, with so much schoolwork piling up. So I texted to Vanilla and asked if I should go to Cookie's on Thu instead. Vanilla's mum was coming over on Thu, so I thought it would be cool to get out of her way. Vanilla responded that she saw no reason why her mum and I couldn't hang out in the same space, but that she could always ask her mum. I took this, for some reason, as a go ahead-sign.

So, come this morning (Thu). Vanilla climbs to bed with me after her night with Chio and we talk. I say I'm happy she came for a morning cuddle because we are not going to see each other again before tomorrow, Friday. Vanilla says no way she is going to sleep four nights apart, and insists that we specifically agreed that there should be no overnight dates this week, because she is going to her parents' for the weekend. Should I have gone to Cookie's tonight, we would have slept four nights apart (Wed, Thu, Fri, Sat).

I'm upset because I thought we agreed that because of deadlines, I changed my night with Cookie from Wed to Thu, and she's upset because she thinks I've gone against her specific request not to have any overnight dates this week. She was okay with us both spending the night with our respective beaus on Wed, because today we would sleep in the same bed before she goes away. Last night, when I came home instead of going to Cookie's, she assumed I had simply skipped seeing Cookie before her trip because of school. She argued that since me and Cookie were going to have the whole weekend to ourselves anyway, I could postpone gratification on this one. I argued that since Cookie works during the day and I have to work both on Fri night and the whole of Saturday, the whole weekend would mean a few short hours together before she comes home on Sun. I'm extra pissed because I know Cookie and I won't see each other again before my trip with Vanilla next week.

I text to Cookie and cancel our date. He responds that he is upset and disappointed and feels unsafe in a configuration where one person can call off dates between the other two entirely arbitrarily whenever she wants to. I texted back that it was I who was communicating badly and making spur-of-the-moment decisions, and just got off the phone with him where I explained in detail what went down. Vanilla offered to have Cookie over on Mon before our trip, for all of us three to hang out, since she misses him, too.

No major drama, just a minor hiccup, but now we have a reservation system where I mark down my date nights with Cookie to the family planner on the wall in advance and we agreed that I would let Vanilla know before I make any changes to prior plans.

SNeacail

03-15-2012, 06:04 PM

I hate miscommunication over scheduling SNAFUs, because no one wins. Just something more to discuss as a group on how to handle better next time.

BlackUnicorn

03-16-2012, 09:00 AM

I hate miscommunication over scheduling SNAFUs, because no one wins. Just something more to discuss as a group on how to handle better next time.

:D I had to google SNAFU, it's brilliant! Sweetheart is always teaching me new slang expressions, like cup of joe. And what do you know, I was watching Twin Peaks the other night and Agent Cooper used it right there! LUR-VE Agent Cooper :o >sigh<...

Anyway, I digress. Vanilla's mum was over last night, and for reasons unknown to God and man, I had a complete wedding freak-out, which progresses into an hour long whispering discussion on hierarchies in poly with Vanilla at 00.30 with her mum, aka The Lady with the Super Hearing, sleeping in the next room.

(While I don't like the way Vanilla's mum treats her some times, I do appreciate how she at least is making an effort to get to know me.)

So, at midnight, a crazy thought pops into my head. Maybe we shouldn't invite any of our other partners to the wedding, because it's about us, right? What if Vanilla freaks out over me giving a hug to Cookie (or anyone else I might be with at that time)? Vanilla: "If you are worried you might not know how to act around our other partners on OUR wedding day, better we don't have the wedding until you know". Fine.

My biggest problem with this hierarchy thing is that I need specifics. I need to know what she wants on concrete terms, and need to figure out if I am compatible with that. So, we are primaries to each other. What does that mean? "It means no one will ever come before me". Well, can anyone be on an equal level with you? "I want us to be the core couple". What does that mean? "I want us to get married, live together, have kids, grow old together". Can someone come in at some point to also live with us, have kids and grow old together? "Maybe, but if in the retirement home there are only two-person rooms, you better be damn sure I'm going to be the one in that room with you!"

So we have a new hierarchy rule. In case of two-person rooms only, we are in that room together :D.

(The wedding is still on, provided I can imagine myself in the future sticking to the two-person room rule. I felt better after my wedding freakout when I went through a mental list with Vanilla on all the stuff we need to do. And kissing other partners on the mouth at our wedding is not okay, but pecks on the cheeks are good. And we will not be seated separately, but with our close family all at the same table, which will include any close family-like partners we might have at that point. I crave specifics, you know?)