America

[bella123456]

This forum seems largely dominated by North Americans.

Which...is fine, and probably shouldn't be an issue.
The reason I bring it up is because I host couchsurfers from all over the world. Total strangers stay in my home and tell me about their times and their travels. They tell me about where they have been and what they have learnt.

And pretty much every single one of them is scared of America, and American culture. I don't know if that is based on not being able to seperate culture from politics and foreign policy maybe.

I'm travelling to America in a couple of months....largely to see NY city, and also I want to drive through the deserts on the west coast....And I really want to meet some americans. I know only a couple and they are both dear to me :)

But never in my life have I heard or felt such significant cultural avoidance.

I have travelled extensively in the middle east and felt completely at home, I was invited into muslims homes at least every second day, and I always took those invites. I've travelled through asia, and also felt completely at home.
I have a fear of travelling in America.....as the culture gap seems the most significant...despite the fact I come from a country that is western, and outwardly sympathetic to US foreign policy.

As vulnerable as this may sound....I want to ask, Every traveller that comes through my home expresses disappointment with american culture, we are all worried about the fact you guys can carry guns, every traveller comments that the food servings are too big, that the wastage is too much. Yes, I'm talking stereotypes....but the fact that these conversations happen with every european, or asian.....

I'd like to ask some Americans about their view on their culture. And if they have the chance to "check in".

I'm asking as I want to be pushed away from a stereotype. Please push me.

Years ago friends of mine travelled through the states and were often asked "oh, did you drive here from australia?"
I'm aware I have a steroetype that is unhealthy, and I'd like to work on getting rid of it.
Apologies in advance for the negative. Let's talk about it...

[RfromRMC]

Sadly, many stereotypes have a basis from truth. :o

With Americans, there's no one culture really any more. It's a big country and there's regional differences for starters. But also even within those smaller regions, there are other divides.

I'm from North Carolina and I often joke there are three states here...the conservative/provincial Rural, the Mundane Suburban, and the progressive Urban. And really, you'll probably find similar divides in many other parts of the US too....although I admit I'm simplifying things greatly.

As a gay man (and poly!), I try to avoid the provincial, conservative and mundane areas as much as humanly possible. I only really feel comfortable in the cities and other progressive or enlightened areas...they tend to be less likely to reflect those negative stereotypes you mention.
And of course the education level and religious beliefs make a huge difference too!
Sadly, many Americans will find some of these opinions "elitist" or whatever else Fox News tells them to think....but really, it's what I personally observe on a regular basis.

[LovingRadiance]

I live in Alaska and frankly-it's a common topic of discussion here that "the lower 48" (states in the mainland area of U.S.) are so much more closed-minded and bad to live in as far as dealing with people go (weather is better generally).

FYI-I've also heard it said that it's fairly disrespectful to refer to the US as "America" as it discludes Canadians & Mexican's (who are in Northern America and therefore American's as well). Do'nt know how our Canadian buddies on this board feel-but thought I'd mention it.

As for the food servings-totally true. In fact, I have PURPOSEFULLY stopped eating everything served if I go out-because I can generally get 3 meals out of it.
Waste-absolutely true. It's asinine.

The thing is-that just because it's common-doesn't mean that it's everyone. It's not everyone. I'm surrounded by people who are conscientious and careful about the environment, their health, other people's health etc.

You have to look at the people individually. Like a previous poster said-there are also "cultures" within the smaller areas. Not only regional, not only state or city, but even within smaller cities there are subcultures.

I live in Wasilla, Alaska. Obviously a big spot for "Palin supporters" and yet there is a HUGE group of "Obama supporters" and another large group that are anti BOTH sides! We can't even really be called a "city" by normal definitions for the country-but there are definitely different cultures even in the smaller groups. ;)

My father in law is in New York City. I've never met a man who is nicer, sweeter, kinder, more helpful in my entire life.

[bella123456]

Very interesting responses. Thank you - It's nice to have some anecdotal stories from you...and inward views. It can be weird when you only hear things from the outside !


FYI-I've also heard it said that it's fairly disrespectful to refer to the US as "America" as it discludes Canadians & Mexican's (who are in Northern America and therefore American's as well). Do'nt know how our Canadian buddies on this board feel-but thought I'd mention it.



Thanks for pointing that out. It's a common abbreviation used in conversation by non-US peoples in my experience.
It's good to learn that abbreviation actually has negative or disrespectful tones to it. This is exactly the cultural learning I was after. Yay !
Sorry. I certainly don't mean any disrespect.

Is there a feeling in the US that the GFC may change values ? I know so many people there have been hurt by it, and continue to be so.

[LovingRadiance]

I don't know what GFC is. I'm sorry. :(

It's a common thing here to call it "America" as well. I was on another forum and it caused quite a big "battle" because it was seen as disrespectful and arrogant (by the Canadian and Mexican posters) that the U.S. citizens called themselves American's. As if they (we) thought we were the only ones that mattered.

ANYWAY! I hope that you enjoy your trip! There are many good and wonderful things to see and wonderful people to meet.
I hope to someday go to Australia. For some reason, since my 10 year old was born, I've always wanted to take him there. :)

[bella123456]

Oh, right...sorry - GFC may just be a term used here. It's an abbreviation we use for the Global financial crisis.

And thanks for the trip wishes....We are very much looking forward to it. Another thing I hear about is how hospitable the people are, so....I do hear loads of positives too !

I'm taking my 10 year old with me :) He's even got some US dollars saved !

I hope you do make it to Australia - I'm sure you would love it ! Tis a tad hot at present though..

[LovingRadiance]

We will, eventually. But not before the 3 year old is a little older. :)

I think you will find that a lot of the "rumors" are true, but that there are lots of things that aren't rumored that are true also. ;)

I don't know about the GFC. I'm honestly not highly involved in politics. I have a....(I don't know the word...)I just don't think that there is anything good going to come of anything regarding politics. I'm of the opinion that it all needs to be thrown out and started over. :(

Not much help in that arena. Sorry!

[BrigidsDaughter]

I'm from what we've always called "upstate" New York, but there are those who live further upstate that call it "central" New York. It's very regional here. I've also lived in Manhattan, KS;in the middle of the bible belt. There are nice people in both places, there are also assholes.

As for your concerns about guns, in my neck of the woods (literally), guns are for hunting. There are some people who own a pistol or rifle for protection of their land/ property. The further south and west you go (IMO and from personal experience) the more likely you are to notice people carrying guns on them, but not every "American" carries a weapon.

[LovingRadiance]

Up here in Alaska it's not uncommon at all to see a rifle rack full-in the back of pick up trucks.
But-it's also not uncommon to see bear or moose on the side of the road. ;)

There are MANY people in Alaska who would be HIGHLY offended if someone tried to come in and take away their right to own and carry firearms. At the same time, I haven't seen too many people in fear for their lives on account of it.

[polychronopolous]

Meh, stereotypes... I could only advise to look at everyone as individuals. I live in Texas. No matter where you live in the states, or abroad, you would probably expect a few stereotypes to apply to me right away. But I don't drive a large gas guzzling vehicle, don't own a single gun, am neither Republican nor Democrat, don't eat at barbecue joints, don't hunt, don't have a Texan accent, etc. I wasn't born in the U.S. but I have lived in the states most of my life. I was born in London, England and have lived in about nine european countries and Mexico, before spending 21 years in California (and a few other states here and there)

Point is, there are all kinds of people from all over the world, and all over this country, all mixed in together wherever you go here. Yes, some people here suck, but others are quite worth meeting. Just don't judge us all by the first asshole you meet in the airport on a return from a business trip, talking to his fellow pseudo-awesome pretentious friend on the bluetooth in his ear, while apparently lacking in any social filter...

We don't like him either ;)

Phoenix

[brainfreezy]

Having been outside of the US and interacted with people, I've run into those stereotypes too. A lot of them are true to a point, some not. While trading stereotypes with an Australian man, I mentioned that a lot of folks in the US assume Aussies are all strong handsome burly dudes like Crocodile Dundee. He said that was funny because a lot of Aussies think Americans are all like John Wayne... In the end we thought there were probably worse things to be stereotyped for :p.

Anyway in all seriousness, we're raised to believe that even with all our problems we're the best place in the world. Of course, (as Lewis Black mentioned in one of his routines), if you haven't been outside the US that can slip from mere proud patriotism to elite isolationism, and we're the new kid on the block, which unfortunately makes us come off as pretentious pricks sometimes. (Not his words: Black used a lot more swearing in his version and I'm trying to cut back).

As has been mentioned above, most of us haven't been outside of the United States and the place is so big you could travel all over the place and meet 1000 different cultures and still not leave the country or primary language. This is where the rest of the world has an advantage, (especially you Europeans). I've been lucky enough to travel and meet citizens from other places and it really opens your mind up to how the world works as a whole. But I always love coming home too. I find that bashing one country over another doesn't really accomplish anything, and only limits other people's abilities to decide for themselves by going and seeing firsthand.

So when you meet one of us in your country out and about, chances are its their *very first* time outside (business travelers rarely get out and do the touristy thing), so take them with a grain of salt. They're out of their element. If you folks come here, you will be well-fed, perfectly safe, (and if you come to Colorado, you can shoot my guns if you want, (we have dedicated ranges with safety officers and everything)). Ultimately we love a good time, however it takes shape.

That said, God bless the USA and everyone else too.

[bella123456]

Just don't judge us all by the first asshole you meet in the airport on a return from a business trip, talking to his fellow pseudo-awesome pretentious friend on the bluetooth in his ear, while apparently lacking in any social filter...



That's very funny !

It is interesting to hear people talk about their own country...widens perception to be sure !

[Somegeezer]

I'd love to hear what the US, Canada and Australia think about England. =P I don't think I really know any Canadians very well myself, but I know many Australians and people from all over the US. All of them quite lovely! =] But I have definitely spoken to a few unintelligent and quite annoying people from both countries. I still bet my country is worse. ;]

[LovingRadiance]

It's rainy?

Honestly I can't fairly comment. I've never been out of the U.S. before. :(
I'm hoping to someday though!

[nycindie]

What I love-love-love about living and working in NYC is meeting people from so many places, some I hadn't even heard of before I met them. They come to NYC from everywhere. I've been to a few far-away parts of the world, the farthest from home having been beautiful New Zealand, but I can walk down my street and within a two-block radius, literally, I am able to converse with someone originally from Nepal, Burkina Faso, Cameroon, Guyana, Mongolia, Finland, Wales, Turkey, Malta...

Still, I have so much to learn about the world and what is going on. I think a lot of Americans are so focused on their own lives -- and we are a nation that highly values individuality, so we tend to not look up and around us often enough. It's like on the cartoon King of the Hill, when everyone always calls Hank Hill's neighbors Chinese or Japanese, no matter how often they tell them they are Laotian. Actually think to look at a map and figure out where Laos is? Not when there are bills to pay and the American dream to work for -- so many people think that whatever is beyond their own community is something that is happening "out there," but just not as important as what they have in front of them.

I would guess the more progressive, aware Americans tend to be in the more diverse, liberal-leaning university towns, or cities where lots of immigrants have settled, and places where globalization is not such a foreign concept.

[Somegeezer]

It's rainy?

Honestly I can't fairly comment. I've never been out of the U.S. before. :(
I'm hoping to someday though!
In England? Often it is rainy, yeah. I think we're expecting rain all through the week. Plus some heavy showers by the end of it. Scotland looks like it might be getting a lot of snow up north again too, which means we might get more mid feb.

[bella123456]

I'd love to hear what the US, Canada and Australia think about England.

Perceptions Australians hold about England are of course, diverse. Older Australians tend to cling a little to the "mother country" concept and feel our relationship with England adds respectablity to our nation. The royal family are followed and adored by many.

I think some Australians feel our relationship with England links us to a colonial power...even though colonialism is outdated. We are part of the commonwealth - So many Australians have a deeply respectful view of England, and English people, tending to think that we're little naughty kids (convicts!) and England is the sensible and guiding parent.

Younger Australians tend to be a little bit more rebellious, like little kids "Hey, we're grown ups now...we can do it ourself !!"

And they is a republican movement that makes a little bit of noise every now and again.

And then of course - there's the cricket :) shhhushhh...

But a very general stereotype here would be that the english are sensible, perhaps better behaved that us, perhaps a little pretentious and that probably stems from the fact this country started as a penal colony

...So, potentially we have some inferiority complexes to work through :)

[Somegeezer]

Perceptions Australians hold about England are of course, diverse. Older Australians tend to cling a little to the "mother country" concept and feel our relationship with England adds respectablity to our nation. The royal family are followed and adored by many.

I think some Australians feel our relationship with England links us to a colonial power...even though colonialism is outdated. We are part of the commonwealth - So many Australians have a deeply respectful view of England, and English people, tending to think that we're little naughty kids (convicts!) and England is the sensible and guiding parent.

Younger Australians tend to be a little bit more rebellious, like little kids "Hey, we're grown ups now...we can do it ourself !!"

And they is a republican movement that makes a little bit of noise every now and again.

And then of course - there's the cricket :) shhhushhh...

But a very general stereotype here would be that the english are sensible, perhaps better behaved that us, perhaps a little pretentious and that probably stems from the fact this country started as a penal colony

...So, potentially we have some inferiority complexes to work through :)
I've heard the same from Canada about the royal family actually. You know what? You guys can have them. =P They are no use to us anymore! They actually had the cheek, not long ago, to complain they were becoming poor. =P Just split them up between the harsh desert outback and arctic north of Canada. =P

I hear a lot of the same here in England about Australia too. A lot of English really do seem pretentious about Australia starting out as where the convicts were sent. But I've not met many people I didn't like over there. The few I didn't get along with, I would exactly say seemed like escaped mental patients either. =P

Any normal Englishmen would be all over cricket, but I just can't stand the sport. =P I think it is the single most talked about thing linking England to Australia though.

I find with the US, they see the whole of the UK as England. Which pisses off the English quite a lot. Including myself. =P I just cannot take people seriously who cannot understand the difference, even after I have explained it to them. =P

[RfromRMC]

I find with the US, they see the whole of the UK as England. Which pisses off the English quite a lot. Including myself. =P I just cannot take people seriously who cannot understand the difference, even after I have explained it to them. =P

Sigh. Unfortunately many in the general public in the US are so ignorant about basic geography it's disgusting. Even many who are supposedly educated, still have big gaps in world geography knowledge. (To be fair though, I blame the public education system...in many states, geography is an elective!) :eek:

I guess I was lucky, my parents gave me a globe and a world atlas when I was a kid to rummage through. :cool:

[SNeacail]

I find with the US, they see the whole of the UK as England. Which pisses off the English quite a lot. Including myself. =P I just cannot take people seriously who cannot understand the difference, even after I have explained it to them. =P

We also call facial tissue Kleenex, soft drinks are Coke, recliners are Lazy Boys, etc. I am fully aware that there are 20 brands of facial tissues, but I will still call it Kleenex out of habit.:p

Not sure how you explain it, but most of us in the US would understand that that England is to California as UK is to the USA.

I won't blame the public school system, because it is taught, people choose to remember what is important to them at the time and similarly ignorant statements come from people all over the world, even those who supposedly have superior education systems.:eek:

[Somegeezer]

We also call facial tissue Kleenex, soft drinks are Coke, recliners are Lazy Boys, etc. I am fully aware that there are 20 brands of facial tissues, but I will still call it Kleenex out of habit.:p

Not sure how you explain it, but most of us in the US would understand that that England is to California as UK is to the USA.

I won't blame the public school system, because it is taught, people choose to remember what is important to them at the time and similarly ignorant statements come from people all over the world, even those who supposedly have superior education systems.:eek:
Yeah, there seems to be a lot of mass branding over there. It seems like you're exposed to it all the time. Not so much here.

What would be closer - Yorkshire is to California as England is to the USA. The UK has no true equivalent in America. Though I woulda argue that Hawaii and Alaska were stolen by the US as Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland were stolen by us in England. =P Well, we actually stole the whole of Ireland and then they revolted. We just managed to keep a small chunk of it. =P

[Ariakas]

I don't know what GFC is. I'm sorry. :(

It's a common thing here to call it "America" as well. I was on another forum and it caused quite a big "battle" because it was seen as disrespectful and arrogant (by the Canadian and Mexican posters) that the U.S. citizens called themselves American's. As if they (we) thought we were the only ones that mattered.

haha...I have been in this argument. It comes down to geographical ignorance. And ownership. We are all americans. Unfortunately, or fortunately depending on how you look at it, the United states, has ended up with the term as their own.

Then again, when I travel, or when my friends travel...travelling as a canadian has a lot of perks. ;)

[polychronopolous]

Yeah, there seems to be a lot of mass branding over there. It seems like you're exposed to it all the time. Not so much here.

What would be closer - Yorkshire is to California as England is to the USA. The UK has no true equivalent in America. Though I woulda argue that Hawaii and Alaska were stolen by the US as Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland were stolen by us in England. =P Well, we actually stole the whole of Ireland and then they revolted. We just managed to keep a small chunk of it. =P

Ehhhhh... the islands of Hawaii, stolen. Alaska... purchased at an exceptionally sweet bargain price. ^_^

[Setxfamily]

After reading some of the posts I have read here just felt like posting. The U.S. is not much different than any other country if you look at it enough. Yes we do enjoy many freedoms that others do not but our founding fathers and all of the settlers that came to this great land set it up that way. Our ancestors all came here looking for freedoms that they could not enjoy in their own native countries and that still applies today. If this country is so bad and evil why is it that so many folks risk everything to try to get in here every year? It is estimated that over a million legal and illegal immigrants cross our borders each year risking everything just for a better life for themselves and their families.

Now all of the new cultures do class from time to time and sometimes bad things happen but for the most part we all live very much peacefully. If we eat too much t is our choice. No one made us eat so much or made us drive to that restaurant it was our own free choice to do so. If we want to own a gun that to is our choice. There is no need to fear anyone just because they may have a gun. If they are licensed to carry it then have no fear for it is the criminals that you have to worry about not the fellow who is just out enjoying an afternoon with his family.

I spend a lot of time reading news articles from out side the US and at times I am amazed how much miss information there is out there about us. It makes me wonder where it comes from sometimes?

Just a few quotes from our founding fathers and great men of history and I just know this will start a fire storm among many.

*An armed man is a citizen.
An unarmed man is a subject


*Those who hammer their guns into plows, will plow for those who do not Thomas Jefferson

*Those who trade liberty for Security have neither
John Adams

*Gun control is not about guns; it's about control.

* When you remove the people's right to bear arms, you create slaves.

* The American Revolution would never have happened with gun control

* The United States Constitution
The Second Amendment is in place in case the politicians ignore the others.
What part of 'shall not be infringed' is NOT understood?

The Founding Fathers on the Second Amendment
*"I ask, Sir, what is the militia? It is the whole people. To disarm the people is the best and most effectual way to enslave them."
George Mason - Co-author of the Second Amendment
during Virginia's Convention to Ratify the Constitution, 1788

*Firearms stand next in importance to the constitution itself. They are the American people's liberty teeth and keystone under independence … from the hour the Pilgrims landed to the present day, events, occurrences and tendencies prove that to ensure peace security and happiness, the rifle and pistol are equally indispensable … the very atmosphere of firearms anywhere restrains evil interference — they deserve a place of honor with all that's good."
George Washington - First President of the United States

* "To preserve liberty, it is essential that the whole body of the people always possess arms and be taught alike, especially when young, how to use them."
Richard Henry Lee - American Statesman, 1788

Now I will not answer to jab snide remarks and such. If anyone wants to discuss this like adults I will be glad to.

Now back on Topic. My friend we are in Houston if you ever find your way to our little place in our great country we would love to meet you and take you out to dinner or something. We hope you enjoy your trip here and have lots of fun and see the wonderful sites that we have to offer. I too have traveled and like many other countries we have a lot to see and do. If you want to know more feel free to send us a messages and we can discuss it some more. We actually look forward to meeting new friends especially the ones from out the U.S. and learn their point of views and how things go in their countries and homes.

[LovingRadiance]

What does "setx" stand for (the family part of course made sense).
I was just curious. :)

[Setxfamily]

What does "setx" stand for (the family part of course made sense).
I was just curious. :)

NO problem. SouthEastTexasFamily or SETXFamily.

[LovingRadiance]

Ah, that makes sense. ;)

[bella123456]

Now back on Topic. My friend we are in Houston if you ever find your way to our little place in our great country we would love to meet you and take you out to dinner or something. We hope you enjoy your trip here and have lots of fun and see the wonderful sites that we have to offer. I too have traveled and like many other countries we have a lot to see and do. If you want to know more feel free to send us a messages and we can discuss it some more. We actually look forward to meeting new friends especially the ones from out the U.S. and learn their point of views and how things go in their countries and homes.

That's a very kind offer - thank you so much. One of the things I have learnt is that I have not given myself enough time there, We won't make it to Houston, but I do appreciate the hospitality.

I also appreciate the quotes from founding fathers, as I did initially seek to garner thoughts from Americans...and they are Americans. I appreciate the glimpse it's given me into what is a historical basis explaining the whole gun thing.

I actually wrote a whole lot which didn't save...frustrating !

I won't comment on substance, as I'm not American...and I'm looking for other peoples views, on their own society

I would be inclined to ask about the validity regarding a value system which seems to have been entrenched a few hundred years ago. Surely a re-visit would have value. Our world is so very different from the world that the founding fathers faced. I don't know that those values or ethics can be carried through - to our time and day..

"To preserve liberty, it is essential that the whole body of the people always possess arms and be taught alike, especially when young, how to use them."
Richard Henry Lee - American Statesman, 1788

I read the story of the 8 year old boy who shot himself in the head with an Uzi submachine gun. His father caught it on video apparently...I guess he was supposed to be shooting at a pumpkin or something...

Was the American statesman from 1788 talking about that ? Probably not...

It is a different world. Listening to people who live in this age is nice.
It would seem silly if the whole ownership of arms debate is caught up in what some people said a couple of hundred years ago. It's not is it? Surely the debate can't be...

Quotes from the founding fathers have historical value in understanding how a system developed..and how the issue of owning guns became relevant.

Surely, they can't be used as justification now though. They lived hundreds of years ago - they don't know our world.


Is that stuff actually presented in discussions about guns etc ?

[Setxfamily]

I actually wrote a whole lot which didn't save...frustrating !

We know how that is. We have had that happen to us a number of times. Now we will do most of our typing under Word and then transfer it to the forum for posting this way we can also try to spell check everything that was put down.

Now back to your questions and thoughts. Yes many of what our founding fathers put down still have strong bearing in today’s society. Even if many do not want to admit it. No they could not have predicted much of the changed that we have gone through in the last 100 years that is why our document is a living document always changing and updating to fit the needs of a modern society but its underlying meaning is still being held on to and is meant to be held on to. It is foundation of our whole country.

Now for a fairly recent history lesson on the differences’ of an armed and unarmed society. No this does not cover everything but it does get the message across.

*SWITZERLAND ISSUES EVERY HOUSEHOLD A GUN! SWITZERLAND'S GOVERNMENT ISSUES EVERY ADULT THEY TRAIN A RIFLE. SWITZERLAND HAS THE LOWEST GUN RELATED CRIME RATE OF ANY CIVILIZED COUNTRY IN THE WORLD!!! Of course there is more to the story (http://mediamattersaction.org/emailchecker/200910200006)as there always is but this makes me glad that I live where I do where I can be free to decide how I wish to live and defend my life, liberty and freedom and not have the decision made for me.

*In 1929, the Soviet Union established gun control. From 1929 to 1953, about 20 million dissidents, unable to defend themselves, were rounded up and exterminated.
------------------------------
*In 1911, Turkey established gun control. From 1915 to 1917, 1.5 million Armenians, unable to defend themselves, were rounded up and exterminated.
------------------------------ *Germany established gun control in 1938 and from 1939 to 1945, a total of 13 million Jews and others who were unable to defend themselves were rounded up and exterminated.
------------------------------ *China established gun control in 1935. From 1948 to 1952, 20 million political dissidents, unable to defend themselves, were rounded up and exterminated.

* Guatemala established gun control in 1964. From 1964 to 1981, 100,000 Mayan Indians, unable to defend themselves, were rounded up and exterminated.
------------------------------ *Uganda established gun control in 1970. From 1971 to 1979, 300,000 Christians, unable to defend themselves, were rounded up and exterminated
------------------------------ *Cambodia established gun control in 1956. From 1975 to 1977, one million educated people, unable to defend themselves, were rounded up and exterminated.

*During WWII the Japanese decided not to invade the U.S. because they knew that the majority of U.S. Citizens were ARMED!

With guns, we are 'citizens;' without them, we are 'subjects'.

You won't see this data on the US evening news, or hear politicians disseminating this information.

Guns in the hands of honest citizens save lives and property and, yes, gun-control laws adversely affect only the law-abiding citizens

The purpose of fighting is to win. There is no possible victory in defense. The sword is more important than the shield, and skill is more important than either. The final weapon is the brain. All else is supplemental.

"To preserve liberty, it is essential that the whole body of the
people always possess arms and be taught alike,
especially when young, how to use them."
Richard Henry Lee - American Statesman, 1788

Now as for the 8 year old kid who shot himself with an UZI. Well as the statement above says they need to be taught how to use them properly. It is my guess that the father was never taught how to use the properly for if he had been then he would have known that an UZI is way to powerful a weapon for an average 8 year-old to handle. I place the blame on the father not the gun maker. Would you give any of your kids the keys to your car if they did not know how to drive or were to young to even see over the wheel much less know how to handle a vehicle?

Maybe this will help as well.
Leading Causes of Death in the United States (http://www.the-eggman.com/writings/death_stats.html)
2002 was the last time a major study like this was preformed in the U.S. The data is compliled every 5 to 10 years. So after 2012 I shoudl be able to give you newer updated numbers.

Well if your schedule shoudl change and you find your self in our small corner of the great big world feel free to look us up. I am sure we would have a great time. If you come around the begining of March we can take you to our Houston Live stock and Rodeo show. Well ahve a great day and I hope to you have a wonderful trip. We have a lot to see up here. Hopefully one day soon we will make it down there to your neck of the world.

[LovingRadiance]

I would have to agree with setx.
I live in alaska. By age 8 it's common for kids here to already be trained in firearm safety.
It's only slightly less common for them to already be hunting with the family to put food on the table.
My boy (who is 11) has been taking firearm safety classes since he was in Kindergarten, because they start it in cubscouts. By age 8 he was taking those classes through a hunters training program available here.
Additionally, all of our firearms are locked up (unloaded). The kids-even the three year old-have no access to them.

I would be highly offended by a gov't that tried to take my right to own firearms away-and honestly-would refuse to comply.
However, I'm also highly offended by individuals who don't get the necessary training before they pick up a firearm AND ensure that they use firearm safety regarding their children. Which includes never allowing access to a firearm to ANY PERSON who doens't know how to PROPERLY use, store and maintain it.

[SNeacail]

Now as for the 8 year old kid who shot himself with an UZI. Well as the statement above says they need to be taught how to use them properly. It is my guess that the father was never taught how to use the properly for if he had been then he would have known that an UZI is way to powerful a weapon for an average 8 year-old to handle. I place the blame on the father not the gun maker. Would you give any of your kids the keys to your car if they did not know how to drive or were to young to even see over the wheel much less know how to handle a vehicle?

AGREE - No different the leaving your kid alone in a pool without knowing how to swim. Kids drown in seconds, even with adults standing right there.

The parent was NOT supervising, he was video taping, which is completely unresponsible.

I would have to agree with setx.
I live in alaska. By age 8 it's common for kids here to already be trained in firearm safety.
It's only slightly less common for them to already be hunting with the family to put food on the table.
My boy (who is 11) has been taking firearm safety classes since he was in Kindergarten, because they start it in cubscouts. By age 8 he was taking those classes through a hunters training program available here.
Additionally, all of our firearms are locked up (unloaded). The kids-even the three year old-have no access to them.

I would be highly offended by a gov't that tried to take my right to own firearms away-and honestly-would refuse to comply.
However, I'm also highly offended by individuals who don't get the necessary training before they pick up a firearm AND ensure that they use firearm safety regarding their children. Which includes never allowing access to a firearm to ANY PERSON who doens't know how to PROPERLY use, store and maintain it.

AGREED! I had similar experiences, but never actually took an official class. Then again, if you ever met my dad, you would know that a class would not have covered as much or put more fear of non-compliance than he did.

[LovingRadiance]

AGREED! I had similar experiences, but never actually took an official class. Then again, if you ever met my dad, you would know that a class would not have covered as much or put more fear of non-compliance than he did.

Then my dearie-you DID take a class. It just happened to be taught by your father.

[Setxfamily]

AGREED! I had similar experiences, but never actually took an official class. Then again, if you ever met my dad, you would know that a class would not have covered as much or put more fear of non-compliance than he did.

My father was the same way. MY Lady never even touched a gun til she meet me but I quickly fixed that and now she is a better shot than I am with a pistol. Both of our kids know better than to even think about touching the guns and my son who is 12 now knows that all he has to do is ask and we will go down to the range just as soon as we can and squeeze off a few rounds in a safe protected environment.

I also knwo that where the media likes to make it sound slike there is open warfare in our streets it is actually very safe and quite in the vast majority of the cities around the U.S. and the folks are all great people who will go out of their way to help a stranger. Even though we live in a large city we really prefer the folks that live in small towns. We love their good strong family values.

[Somegeezer]

I quite enjoy the idea of having a gun myself. For something like defense... But you have to realise, there are idiots out there who will do more harm than good. I'm willing to not have a gun so that no idiot can have one either. Instead, in this country. Most people turn to knife crime instead. Because, to be fair, you can find a ton of them in your kitchen. So what do I do? I keep an array of swords and knives in my bedroom. They look good as decorations and look even better if I were ever robbed by a knife-wielding idiot. ^_^ The majority of people killed by a knife here, are actually killed by their own knife. So sucks if you want to go round stabbing people. =P I'm also partly trained in karate and ju-jitsu combined with my own fighting style. I've lost maybe 2 fights in my life.

So yeah... I don't need a gun, I'll defend myself without.

As for hunting... Well that just something I'm not interested in. Hunt away!

[Setxfamily]

:DOH YES! Long sharp pointy things are great! We have a few of those as well. :D

[Somegeezer]

:DOH YES! Long sharp pointy things are great! We have a few of those as well. :D
My longest is only about half the size of me. [3ft] A nice katana. It's not sharp though. What I really want is a Viking Longsword.

[bella123456]

I appreciate the insight all - thanks ! :)

I'm off and away for a pre-holiday holiday. I will think about the responses though. I do feel more educated about a number of things, why people value the right to own firearms as an example.

That's not something that is important to me - But it's useful to understand why that may be important to other people.

[RfromRMC]

Yup. But then there's folks like us, where the only "guns" you'll find are Nail guns....Staple Guns....Glue guns....Heat guns.....Rivet Guns... :D

("M" likes to think he's Home Depot's best customer on earth! ;) )

[Setxfamily]

Yup. But then there's folks like us, where the only "guns" you'll find are Nail guns....Staple Guns....Glue guns....Heat guns.....Rivet Guns... :D

A lot of damage can be done with a nail gun. Just ask a good friend of mine when he accidently nailed his hand to the floor. OUCH!

I have a custom made sword and dagger set that was made for me a long time ago plus many others as well. I use to have more until we had a bunch of stuff stollen during a move including a viking long sword and battle axe. We had a two handed claymore, several fencing swords, but my main preference is daggers.

:DJohns Hopkins Student Kills Burglar With Samurai Sword (http://www.newser.com/story/69468/johns-hopkins-student-kills-burglar-with-samurai-sword.html):rolleyes::p

[Somegeezer]

A lot of damage can be done with a nail gun. Just ask a good friend of mine when he accidently nailed his hand to the floor. OUCH!

I have a custom made sword and dagger set that was made for me a long time ago plus many others as well. I use to have more until we had a bunch of stuff stollen during a move including a viking long sword and battle axe. We had a two handed claymore, several fencing swords, but my main preference is daggers.

:DJohns Hopkins Student Kills Burglar With Samurai Sword (http://www.newser.com/story/69468/johns-hopkins-student-kills-burglar-with-samurai-sword.html):rolleyes::p
Love the story at the end there. Something like that over here, would unfortunately have the law on there side. Which is completely stupid. Everyone has a right to defend their property, even if you have to kill them as a last resort. They certainly won't be coming round stealing my stuff again will they? =P

That's one thing I'd love to see change over here.

That's a bummer that you had some cool stuff stolen yourself. I'm lucky to never have been robbed so far. Most of my expensive gear is in my bedroom though. One of the last places someone will go when they want to rob a place. They can take my awful TV in the living room, they will be lucky to get anything for it. That's if they can even carry it out of the house. =P

[Setxfamily]

If they want our UGLY TV as well they can have it as well if they can move it. It took 4 men just to get it in place. It is not a flat screen but works quite well so why replace it.

We are pretty sure that one of the movers took the knives and swords (since he help to pack them up, Our mistake.) but the theft was not discovered until about 2 months later when were ready to put that stuff back on display in their cabinet and on the wall. When we contacted the moving company they told us he was no longer employed there and he was no longer living at the address we were given for him. No problem we will replace them one day.

In my city in 2009 we had more people killed in auto accidents, electrocutions, overdoes of drugs, trips and falls, poisons, and other than gun related deaths.

When you come to the U.S. your biggest fear shoudl be will I get killed in an auto accident or something not who is packing heat or not. Do not fear the honest folks here any more then you fear the folks in your own country down under.

[bella123456]

My biggest fear is the idea I'll be needing to work out how to drive on the other side of the road !

You folks should be scared of me, in honesty ! :)

[Setxfamily]

:eek:In that case an auto accident it will be. Just let me know when you are coming to town and I will have the roads cleared for you. :p

[nycindie]

My biggest fear is the idea I'll be needing to work out how to drive on the other side of the road !When I visited New Zealand with a bunch of other New Yorkers, we rented a car and had it worked out so that the two of us in the front seat would basically drive. One was steering, the other in the passenger seat was working the clutch. This was easier for the person on the left to do, because she was used to using her right hand to do it, while the driver just focused on the wheel and pedals. Those of us in the back seat (who didn't know how to drive a stick shift) were assigned to look in the correct direction and remind the driver which lane to turn into. It was especially hard to remember where to turn on desolate roads.

Truly a team effort! Haha!

[Magdlyn]

How did this turn into a gun thread? lol

I was raised in a suburb of NYC, so no guns for my family. We are liberals.

My ex and my current gf are both from rural areas tho, and grew up with hunters. My ex stopped after he killed his first deer at 12 tho, it broke his heart.

My gf's family had periods of extreme poverty tho, and spent time subsisting on rabbit and squirrel, and deer in season.

[Somegeezer]

When I visited New Zealand with a bunch of other New Yorkers, we rented a car and had it worked out so that the two of us in the front seat would basically drive. One was steering, the other in the passenger seat was working the clutch. This was easier for the person on the left to do, because she was used to using her right hand to do it, while the driver just focused on the wheel and pedals. Those of us in the back seat (who didn't know how to drive a stick shift) were assigned to look in the correct direction and remind the driver which lane to turn into. It was especially hard to remember where to turn on desolate roads.

Truly a team effort! Haha!
I'll have to ask how hard it was for Dave driving with the wheel on the left when he and my mum get back from Canada haha. Over in America, most cars are auto though aren't they? So I doubt it's as much trouble as you having to switch to having a stick as well as the wheel on the wrong side. =P Going to the rest of Europe, there's only the wrong side of the road to worry about usually, because you can generally take your own car. A lot cheaper than flying and renting out a different car for sure.

[Magdlyn]

No, Ive had more stick shift than automatic. Hondas, baby.

[SNeacail]

I think most rentals anymore are automatics.

[Charlie]

Bella,

I would like to strongly suggest to you a book to read, of not too great a length.

"Travels with Charlie: In Search of America" by John Steinbeck.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Travels_with_Charley:_In_Search_of_America

[bella123456]

Thanks for the book recommendation Charlie...I'll certainly read it..

I love reading about road trips almost as much as I like doing them. There's a lot to be said for getting to your destination slowly, taking the time to be small amongst the wide space..

[Carma]

If you're going to New York City, fortunately you won't have to worry about driving -- the public transportation there is awesome.

I live in Ohio and to me, NYC is a whole other world in itself! There is no way you can compare NYC to the rest of the United States, really. Our life here is so different than there -- my two oldest daughters live in New York City and I LOVE it!!! But life here is much, much more laid back. Even our biggest cities here don't bustle like the Big Apple.

People are afraid of us??? I guess I am surprised to hear that! I must be naive, but I feel pretty safe here in the U.S. I'd be far more afraid to go to a country where you can get thrown in jail for exposing a lock of hair.

One of my favorite things about NYC is the street musicians. And sometimes they play in the subway, too. So fun! You can expect to see just about anything there! (Except guns. They show up on tv dramas but you are not likely to encounter anyone pulling a gun on anyone in real life! Lots of sensationalism out there. The odds are good that you will be perfectly safe.)

Another great thing about NYC is the FOOD -- you can eat ANY cousine you desire. There are restaurants from every part of the world on practically any given block! Alas, yes we are all about the supersize portions here, which may be disturbing but it is always ok to take a "doggie bag" with you when you leave. (Do you have this expression? You take some food home "for the dog," which you may in fact give to your dog, but most of us save and eat for lunch the next day ;) ).

You will love it here! Have a great trip!!

[Magdlyn]

My understanding is, Europeans don't do doggie bags and think the idea is gross.

[bella123456]

Thanks Carma - Yeah, I think NYC will be a blast ! :)

Street musicians & awesome food sounds just fab. New York has a lengendary glow about it - People just rave about it !

And yes, we have the term "doggie bag"...and it's quite common for us to ask to take leftovers home too.

We're super excited !

[Somegeezer]

If you're going to New York City, fortunately you won't have to worry about driving -- the public transportation there is awesome.

I live in Ohio and to me, NYC is a whole other world in itself! There is no way you can compare NYC to the rest of the United States, really. Our life here is so different than there -- my two oldest daughters live in New York City and I LOVE it!!! But life here is much, much more laid back. Even our biggest cities here don't bustle like the Big Apple.

People are afraid of us??? I guess I am surprised to hear that! I must be naive, but I feel pretty safe here in the U.S. I'd be far more afraid to go to a country where you can get thrown in jail for exposing a lock of hair.

One of my favorite things about NYC is the street musicians. And sometimes they play in the subway, too. So fun! You can expect to see just about anything there! (Except guns. They show up on tv dramas but you are not likely to encounter anyone pulling a gun on anyone in real life! Lots of sensationalism out there. The odds are good that you will be perfectly safe.)

Another great thing about NYC is the FOOD -- you can eat ANY cousine you desire. There are restaurants from every part of the world on practically any given block! Alas, yes we are all about the supersize portions here, which may be disturbing but it is always ok to take a "doggie bag" with you when you leave. (Do you have this expression? You take some food home "for the dog," which you may in fact give to your dog, but most of us save and eat for lunch the next day ;) ).

You will love it here! Have a great trip!!
New York sounds a lot like London. Leeds isn't far off. It's only a city, rather than built up of many districts like London is. But it still gets very busy. Everything you could ever need within walking distance. I could walk from one side of the city centre to the other within an hour.

Yes we do have doggie bags too. I have never got myself one though. I manage to always eat what is put on my plate. =P I'm used to big portions myself. I'm not a fat guy, but I could certainly eat like one. If I were to leave quite a bit of good food, I'd certainly take it back in a doggie bag though. No point in wasting a good meal, even if it literally does end up going to the dog.

"I'd be far more afraid to go to a country where you can get thrown in jail for exposing a lock of hair."
I wouldn't ever want to go there either. I enjoy my hair and prefer to show it off. ;D

[Charlie]

Bella,

I have thinking long and hard about what to tell you about The United States of America. So, after much deliberation, here are some practical, and hopefully useful, bits of information.

1) The system of paved interstate highways in the U.S.A. is a modern marvel. The prefix U.S. stands for Unified System. All odd numbered roads run north/south, and all even numbered roads run east/west. For instance,
U.S. Interstate 80 runs from the east coast to the west coast, while
U.S. Interstate 75 runs from the tip of Michigan (north) to the tip of Florida (south). The phenomenon known as "franchise landscape" has developed along the major interstate roads. There is a McDonald's restaurant and a Walmart store at every exit ramp it seems. This is the plastic packaging of our nation. Feel free to ramble down some dirt roads; you will be safe, I assure you.

2) This country is enormous. The State and National Parks are public lands and camping is encouraged for a minimal fee. As there has been an increase (infestation) in the population of bedbugs (I'm not kidding) in hotels and motels throughout New England (New York) and the Midwest (Ohio), I suggest you consider your options for lodging. Bedbugs love to hitch rides in luggage, clothing, and personal effects and are next to impossible to kill.

3) The West is bigger than you can imagine. Go to the Grand Canyon. The deserts of New Mexico and Arizona are spectacular. Denver, Colorado is one of the kindest big cities I have ever had the pleasure of, with mountain lakes and rivers that are, well, majestic. The South is covered in kudzu and sausage gravy, and yes, Southern hospitality is very real.

4) Racism and small mindedness are unfortunate aspects of any culture. This one is no different. Some places are worse than others. Keep your eyes open and your ears peeled. Travel smart and with respect, not fear, and you will be just fine.

Lots of other things, endless really. If you have any specific questions, I would be happy to try and answer.

Safe travels,

Charlie

[nycindie]

Bella,
When are you coming to NYC? Send me a private message when you have dates. We can have a get-together!

[RfromRMC]

New York sounds a lot like London.
Having been to both, I often describe London to fellow Americans as a mix between New York and Washington DC. London is huge like New York...and has all the entertainment, business, financial stuff. But it's also a little like Washington in that it has fewer skyscrapers, lots of government institutions, embassies, etc...and other political things that usually are found in a nation's capital city.

Now that I think of it, the US has that heavily in common with Australia & Canada--- a separate capital city that's not the big major financial "capital" (or Largest City). Unlike most of the major Euro countries, where it's the same city.

[bella123456]

Bella,
When are you coming to NYC? Send me a private message when you have dates. We can have a get-together!

Will do !! :)


1) The system of paved interstate highways in the U.S.A. is a modern marvel. The prefix U.S. stands for Unified System. All odd numbered roads run north/south, and all even numbered roads run east/west. For instance,
U.S. Interstate 80 runs from the east coast to the west coast, while
U.S. Interstate 75 runs from the tip of Michigan (north) to the tip of Florida (south). The phenomenon known as "franchise landscape" has developed along the major interstate roads. There is a McDonald's restaurant and a Walmart store at every exit ramp it seems. This is the plastic packaging of our nation. Feel free to ramble down some dirt roads; you will be safe, I assure you.

2) This country is enormous. The State and National Parks are public lands and camping is encouraged for a minimal fee. As there has been an increase (infestation) in the population of bedbugs (I'm not kidding) in hotels and motels throughout New England (New York) and the Midwest (Ohio), I suggest you consider your options for lodging. Bedbugs love to hitch rides in luggage, clothing, and personal effects and are next to impossible to kill.

3) The West is bigger than you can imagine. Go to the Grand Canyon. The deserts of New Mexico and Arizona are spectacular. Denver, Colorado is one of the kindest big cities I have ever had the pleasure of, with mountain lakes and rivers that are, well, majestic. The South is covered in kudzu and sausage gravy, and yes, Southern hospitality is very real.

4) Racism and small mindedness are unfortunate aspects of any culture. This one is no different. Some places are worse than others. Keep your eyes open and your ears peeled. Travel smart and with respect, not fear, and you will be just fine.


Charlie

That's awesome, thanks Charlie..
1. Such a simple piece of information regarding road numbering that I did not know, and will make my travels easier !!
2. mmm...bugs, we have our fair share too !
3. I wish I had more time, the more I learn, the more I want to see !
I dream of deserts :)
The excitement is becoming unbearable...
4. Agreed, we have more than our fair share of racism and small mindedness here.

Thanks all for the tips and welcome advice

[Somegeezer]

Having been to both, I often describe London to fellow Americans as a mix between New York and Washington DC. London is huge like New York...and has all the entertainment, business, financial stuff. But it's also a little like Washington in that it has fewer skyscrapers, lots of government institutions, embassies, etc...and other political things that usually are found in a nation's capital city.

Now that I think of it, the US has that heavily in common with Australia & Canada--- a separate capital city that's not the big major financial "capital" (or Largest City). Unlike most of the major Euro countries, where it's the same city.
I think that just shows that Europe is all about the money, where the US, Canada and Australia are more about government and keeping their citizens happy. To me anyways. It seems the government here is always out to fuck over the people, just to make money. [which they ended up failing at and owing thousands of millions to everyone.]

[SNeacail]

I think that just shows that Europe is all about the money, where the US, Canada and Australia are more about government and keeping their citizens happy. To me anyways. It seems the government here is always out to fuck over the people, just to make money. [which they ended up failing at and owing thousands of millions to everyone.]

Goverment is goverment all over the world and somehow they have all managed to find the most expensive and most inefficient ways to do anything. Politicians have a talent for taking a great idea and turning into a mediocre idea, makes it cost 100 times more, takes 5 times as long to put into place and only accomplishes 1/5 of what the original did.

[bella123456]

I know this is an old thread, I just have one last question...

I don't understand why a government of a developed country fails to provide health care to it's people.

It feels like one of the most basic of human rights.

Was it there once and was taken away ?
Or, was it not established in the first place ?

And, do people fight for it, or have they given up fighting ?

What's the story ?
Appreciate it folks....looking to understand this place...

[bella123456]

And, what do you think of that film "Inside Job " ?

I'm rattled to the bone..

[Magdlyn]

I know this is an old thread, I just have one last question...

I don't understand why a government of a developed country fails to provide health care to it's people.

It feels like one of the most basic of human rights.

Was it there once and was taken away ?
Or, was it not established in the first place ?

And, do people fight for it, or have they given up fighting ?

What's the story ?
Appreciate it folks....looking to understand this place...

Fear of communism.

People in this country who don't want state or federal health care think it will take away their freedom to choose their own health care provider.

Of course, they are willing to pay taxes for state funded public schooling, fire fighters, police, road and bridge work, prisons, etc etc.

It's hypocritical and just plain stupid, IMO. Luckily I live in Massachusetts where we do have state funded health care (we are nicknamed Taxachusetts), and thank god we do, because i have a young adult mentally ill daughter who'd probably be dead by now if she didnt have state health insurance.

[Ariakas]

Well this is a topic that is close to my heart. Coming from the proverbial gutters with a family that abused their bodies with food. And myself being a conservative. I can clearly see both sides of the coin.

As a, now, successful healthy person who uses health care very little and can afford extended health care through work I can understan the hesitation for public health care.

Excluding people who are "naturally" sick. Why do I have to pay for drugs abusers, long term damaged alcoholics, pay for the rising obesity rate and on top of it all, peope who in general care little for the health care system they are clearly abusing? Why are my taxes going into a system that is clearly encouraging poor health choices instead of going towards forcing better health choices. There is so much abuse that when people with real problems walk in they are delayed in their procedures, and some procedures are delayed months in order to have room for people who created their own problems.

Not to mention, our system for example, is losing some great doctors to the states. Your guys actually pay them, our system I believe, on a point system based on how many pee they can jam into their rooms. So we end up with good hearted doctors but not always the best skilled.

I think there is an answer that fits in between but like all things political, the middle ground wont satisfy the right wingers or left wingers. The bleeding hearts will cry foul that I can walk in and pay for surgery while they have to wait, and the pure blood right wingers will scream bloody murder that they are still funding peoples poor choices and covering health care for everyone (aka a high level of selfishness)

In the end I will always choose universal health care, but it has it's flaws. Big ones. It just happens to be better than no coverage. If both sides would put down their rose colored glasses we might actually find a system that works both fiscally and be socially responsible.

[Magdlyn]

Keeping in mind Ari is from Canada...

[Ariakas]

Keeping in mind Ari is from Canada...

Sorry I guess I could have been more clear. I am definitely giving the perspective of someone living within the system currently.

Oh one other positive about our health care, and I am not sure why this is, but our drugs are wayyyy cheaper. Significantly so. Its shocking the difference between our two couNtries. I am not sure if that is tariffs or the differences in health care. But it really helps

[Magdlyn]

BTW, I take offense at your assertion that alcoholics and drug abusers "create their own health problems" and therefore don't deserve health care. My daughter has borderline personality disorder and one of her issues is a compulsion to mask her extreme anxiety by self medicating. She has lived in 3 sober houses. One of the directors told me that most of the ppl in her house had mental health issues, which made them turn to alcohol or substances.

[SNeacail]

Fear of communism.

People in this country who don't want state or federal health care think it will take away their freedom to choose their own health care provider.

Of course, they are willing to pay taxes for state funded public schooling, fire fighters, police, road and bridge work, prisons, etc etc.

It's hypocritical and just plain stupid, IMO. Luckily I live in Massachusetts where we do have state funded health care (we are nicknamed Taxachusetts), and thank god we do, because i have a young adult mentally ill daughter who'd probably be dead by now if she didnt have state health insurance.

I don't think it's so much the fear of communism anymore (at least for most of us), but the fact that the many of us just don't have that much faith in goverments ability to handle it effectively. The system as it stands SUCKS, but nothing they have proposed so far shows any hope of things actually getting better. Part of the problem is that it's the politicians are in charge of creating a new system.

I currently have a bare bones insurance, so I usually tell the doctors that I don't have insurance and want the cash price. It usually gets knocked down to 1/2 what the insurance companies are charged, and for office visits, that's less than my copay. The whole thing is a big racket right now. Hopsital/doctors over or double charging the insurance companies, insurance companies deciding not to pay for necessary stuff and then raising our rates 25% every year. The insurance companies want you to use their "prefered providers", but if I pay cash, I can usually get it cheaper by going somewhere not on the insurance company list. How many people call around to the different hospitals and actually ask how much an X-Ray is? I had to do it when I had no X-Ray coverage, the "prefered hospital" was twice what the others were charging. I can just immagine it getting worse when the goverment gets involved.

Opps, sorry for the rant.

Taxachusettes, I've heard that. My parents lived there for 5 years when my dad was in the Air Force, 40+ years ago (I was born there:)). Welfare recipients made more money than he did as an officer.

[Magdlyn]

When I had my blood clots about 10 yrs ago, (deep vein thrombosis and pulmonary emboli) my ex and I were in between health insurance co's because he was changing jobs. My hosp stay of 3 days cost $60,000 cash self pay. Luckily my parents paid half that. It took me over 2 yrs to pay off the rest, even tho my ex was then making good money. If I'd had health insurance, like the plan I do now, it wouldve been $150 co-pay for the ER and $40 for each specialist I saw.

Bit of a difference there.

I tried to work with all the doctors to get a break because I didnt have insurance, but didnt have much luck.

[SNeacail]

When I had my blood clots about 10 yrs ago, (deep vein thrombosis and pulmonary emboli) my ex and I were in between health insurance co's because he was changing jobs. My hosp stay of 3 days cost $60,000 cash self pay. Luckily my parents paid half that. It took me over 2 yrs to pay off the rest, even tho my ex was then making good money. If I'd had health insurance, like the plan I do now, it wouldve been $150 co-pay for the ER and $40 for each specialist I saw.

Bit of a difference there.

I tried to work with all the doctors to get a break because I didnt have insurance, but didnt have much luck.

I was most definitely not talking about hospital stays and emergencies. I was refering to standard stuff, like when the kids are sick and such, just normal office visits. My kid needed an X-Ray to rule out a break, one place wanted over $200 (with no cash break) while another was $80 cash. The doctors office I go to charges $45 cash per visit, but will charge the insurance company $100, so my portion is $50, if I let them bill it. I'm just way more aware of how much the everyday stuff costs now.

[Setxfamily]

I know this is an old thread, I just have one last question...

I don't understand why a government of a developed country fails to provide health care to it's people.

It feels like one of the most basic of human rights.

Was it there once and was taken away ?
Or, was it not established in the first place ?

And, do people fight for it, or have they given up fighting ?

What's the story ?
Appreciate it folks....looking to understand this place...

Okay this will be not be a simple explanation. For the full story you will need to do your own research. My spelling and typing is not always the best so please bear with me.

Actually we do have a national Health insurance program. Several in fact. They are called Medicare and Medicaid and many states also have their own in state programs such as CHiP for Texas and then there is the Government program of WIC for pregnant mothers and young children, There is also a federal ruling that all medical establishments that accept federal funds must accept anyone that needs emergency care at their ER rooms,. And most colleges and universities offer a medical care package to their students. So medical care is actually very radically accessible to anyone who needs or desires it.

The Obama medical insurance bill is not an insurance program is reality but a way to redistribute wealth and control people and information. What he and the other democrats seek to do is take or transfer more power to the government. They seek to put caps on how much a Dr. or medical specialist can make (communism), if you study the whole bill and understand our society you will see that it only really benefits a small percentage of our current society.

So far 14 states have applied for waivers to be excluded from this bill and 8 more have joined the waiting list. Over 400 companies have applied and received waivers from the bill. If this is suppose to be so great why are waivers even being considered much less granted? This bill is not going to save the average person money but cost us a ton more. Already this year my family and I have seen an increase of over 12% to our insurance costs and during the Presidents run for office we were promised that our rates would never increase.

I will stop here due to the fact that I can quote a 100 reasons why this bill is not good and answers to your question.

[Ariakas]

BTW, I take offense at your assertion that alcoholics and drug abusers "create their own health problems" and therefore don't deserve health care. My daughter has borderline personality disorder and one of her issues is a compulsion to mask her extreme anxiety by self medicating. She has lived in 3 sober houses. One of the directors told me that most of the ppl in her house had mental health issues, which made them turn to alcohol or substances.

I am sorry you take offense. Bt I am well aware of the statistics. My parents and even wife have their problems with OCD and anxiety (amongst a lot of other mental challenges) in the end they can still chose not to. My parent mental illnesses caused them to over eat and become addicted to food which in turn made them fat then obese then dead. My father killed himself by eating himself to death. He did that, not the disease.

I believe the number is 30% more likely actually. And everyone I know who has OCD etc, tries to not even start because they know the chances of addiction greatly increases. The immediate effect release from their personal torture of anxiety and OCD is immediately relieved by alcohol in ways medication can't. It's amazingly powerful and dangerous.

So sorry you took offense, but the problem is still the same. This doesn't dismiss my point. They needed better help before the addiction. Maybe more knowledge in advance of how addictive they can become. But in the end alcoholics and druggies are a burden on society... As are overeaters... As are all those people who use the emergency room for crap problem and end up cock blocking peep who need help. Fix the health care system from he ground up and maybe it will cost less overall...people need to take more personal responsibility for their health...

I also should have clarified. I wasn't going to give my big ass speak about health care as I have debated this a lot in life and I have a huge number of Olomouc and idea. My point wasn't they didn't deserve health care, I believe there should be a premium. Whether that is found in a fast food tax (etc etc etc) I dont care where it is found. But if you treat your body like crap in any way, you should have to pay more.

[Magdlyn]

Actually we do have a national Health insurance program. Several in fact. They are called Medicare and Medicaid...

Yes, for the indigent and elderly. Many health care institutions and individual doctors do not accept these programs, however. In my state, many technically say they accept MassHealth, but then you can still get turned away, because the clinics will submit your bill, but the state still won't pay.

and many states also have their own in state programs such as CHiP for Texas and then there is the Government program of WIC for pregnant mothers and young children...

WIC (women, infants and children) is a food program, not a medical service.

There is also a federal ruling that all medical establishments that accept federal funds must accept anyone that needs emergency care at their ER rooms,. And most colleges and universities offer a medical care package to their students.

My daughters were offered health care thru their community college, at $700 a year. Almost as much money as tuition. And other Western countries also offer free college educations! Health care and education are for the elite, not the lower working class.

People die for lack of health care in this country every day.

[Setxfamily]

Yes, for the indigent and elderly. Many health care institutions and individual doctors do not accept these programs, however. In my state, many technically say they accept MassHealth, but then you can still get turned away, because the clinics will submit your bill, but the state still won't pay.

I agree many will not accept the payment and I do not have a reason on why to everything but for many the reason is that the states and governments do not or will not pay what the services are worth or even close to that the equipment and meds are worth.

[/B]WIC (women, infants and children) is a food program, not a medical service.

In my state and many places they can get basic medical services as well.

My daughters were offered health care thru their community college, at $700 a year. Almost as much money as tuition. And other Western countries also offer free college educations! Health care and education are for the elite, not the lower working class.

$700 thats pretty cheap actually. I pay more than that for myself through my employer, Add my family in and you it is twice the amount.

People die for lack of health care in this country every day.

Yes and many of them are illegals, Choose not to have insurance, some cannot afford it but it is there if needed. Do I feel that it should be more avaliable yes. Do I think we need to have some better insurance reform and all YES. do I think that this is the bill for us NO!!! If you actually have read it like I have you will understand fully how much of a travesty this bill really is. HOW much damage it is doing and about to do to our way of life. Do you want facts for I can provide many of them, I can dump a lot of them here but to many it will do no good for they are all focused on one thing FREE INSURANCE. Nothing is ever truly FREE! Someone has to pay for it. Right now it takes 8 people working full time to pay for ONE person on a government sponsered policy. You do the math. Study the bill and you might actually learn something surprising. Plus I do not think that I should be forced to buy something I do not feel that I need.

[Magdlyn]

I am sorry you take offense. But I am well aware of the statistics. My parents and even wife have their problems with OCD and anxiety (amongst a lot of other mental challenges) in the end they can still chose not to.

Yes, my daughter technically "can" choose to not use, but it's taken over 5 years of intensive medical/psychological health care for her to become strong enough to be *able* to choose. And she is far from out of the woods yet. We still live on eggshells anticipating another meltdown. I know you are also an alcoholic and went thru a lot of shit to quit recently. But you don't need to be on 3 expensive medications just to get through the day like she does (afaik).

I am sorry about your parents' fatal obesity/eating disorders.



So sorry you took offense, but the problem is still the same. This doesn't dismiss my point. They needed better help before the addiction. Maybe more knowledge in advance of how addictive they can become.

Haha! In a perfect world. She was a cutter, hid it from the family from age 14 to 16, long before she started drinking...

Fix the health care system from he ground up and maybe it will cost less overall

Yes, I agree with that.


I also should have clarified. I wasn't going to give my big ass speak about health care as I have debated this a lot in life and I have a huge number of Olomouc

What is Olomouc?

and idea. My point wasn't they didn't deserve health care, I believe there should be a premium. Whether that is found in a fast food tax (etc etc etc) I dont care where it is found. But if you treat your body like crap in any way, you should have to pay more.

How would you enforce that? My daughter can't afford to pay *more* because of her illness! She's so sick she can't even hold down a job consistently, much less pay extra for health care.

[SNeacail]

My daughters were offered health care thru their community college, at $700 a year.

Sign me up that's 30% of what I pay per person for bare bones coverage.

I'm all for scrapping the whole thing and re-building it from the ground up. I'm not willing to pay more taxes for a duct tape solution, but a real, effective program, sure.

[bella123456]

I can see such diversity in opinion. I guess that's a natural case of differences in backgrounds and history. It's obscene that someone has to pay $60,000 for help though, especially if they were out of work or stuck in a hard place....Probably at the time they most need compassion....in the face of ill health, or facing chemotherapy....or invasive surgery.


I believe health care is a fundamental human right. If that is one's first premise, the capacity to suggest it's dependant on:

You take care of yourself.


Who judges that ?



1. If you eat too much, should that exclude you ?

2. If you drink too much ?

3. If you smoked a couple of joints in high school and that has shown a link to depression/mental health problems

4. If you slept / or sleep with someone of the same sex ? (that caused aids in the 80's, the media would have caused us to believe)

5. You drive too fast on the highway ?

6. Do you spend too much time in the sun ?

7. Do you have multiple sexual partners ?

8. Do you have enough fresh fruit and vegetable in your diet ?


I don't feel it can be argued as a conditional "privilege" based on how "good" you have been, that suggests a setting of standards I don't like. Nor your capacity to pay. All people deserve health care and we are creatures of compassion, being human is what entitles one...to care, and be cared for.

Just my slightly pink opinion :)


I've found the insights valuable - Thanks :)

Gotta run...plane to catch.

excitement, excitement ! :) :) :)

[Ariakas]

What is Olomouc?


No clue, I can't even remember context. My ipad decided to fix a word for me.