Life Changes..the beginning.

[JenAgain]

Continuing on from our introduction....

We had our first meeting last night with our friend. We'll call him J. I was a bit nervous, I didn't know how he was going to feel and I didn't want to scare him off. We all sat down, hubby on one side, J on the other. They held hands in my lap, which made me all warm and fuzzy inside. They are both straight (for now? heehee), but have a very close and comfortable relationship which is what I think helps this situation be ideal.

We essentially invited him to be part of our family. We wanted it to be me and hubby, me and J, J and hubby (their friendship), and all of us together. We want him to come over whenever, whether hubby is home or not, whether I am here or not. We discussed our boundaries, actually showed him the list hubby and I had made together, including a no intercourse rule for now. I do hope that will change in the future, but for now I am content with that.

He expressed his concerns, and where his open marriage failed. He's worried about stepping on hubby's toes. He also said his deal was that he was still looking for somebody, and that if he happens to find her, then our situation needs to come to an end. We all agreed that anybody can stop it at any time. I did express my concerns about not wanting to just be a piece of ass, that I wanted respect like they had respect for each other, and hubby has respect for me. He said he understands that and that there is more there than that, he feels a connection as well.

So after we had all of our boundaries gone over, and had a group hug, we all had a drink and piled into our bed. :) It was an amazing night for me, I wont go into all of the details, things were a little awkward at moments, but in the end all worked out. I was exhausted as I felt it important to make sure that both men were well taken care of. I enjoyed the attention, but I didn't feel that it was about me. I felt completely happy making each one of them feel good.

This morning we discussed our feelings. Hubby said he didn't feel jealous or uncomfortable, which I thought was awesome. J said he did say he was a bit tentative as he still didn't want to step on hubby's toes. I was just on cloud 9 about the situation (NRE???), but I'm also apprehensive about those feelings. I know that this situation is always going to be on the edge of coming to an end, and I'm afraid to get comfortable, or attached. Unfortunately for me, I am one of those people that get attached easily and I did tell both hubby and J. J says that concerns him a bit. It's not so much the attachment I'm worried about, I just know that if I do, it's going to hurt like hell when this comes to an end, and I need to be prepared for that. So I feel torn as far as wanting to happy and excited, and not wanting to get used to this.

J stayed all day until 5. Hubby and I traded off playing with the kids in the bedroom and napping in the morning, while J slept on the couch. I think next time I'll clear out and set up an actual room for him so he can get some sleep. After everyone was awake I made the guys brunch and we all just lounged and played with the kids, and they dorked out to some video games. Even J was playing with the kids and I felt so lucky to have them both there.

I'm not sure where we will go from here. Hubby and I are still discussing a lot about the experience. So far it has been positive, though hubby still has some mixed emotions, but he doesn't really understand them, so he's doing what he can to sort through them. I still want to get more info out of J. I know he's so concerned about stepping on hubby's toes, and I want to get past that once we have established that everyone is still comfortable with how things are going. I'd like to not have that apprehension or wondering.

We've invited him back over next weekend. Friday this time, since he doesn't work Friday nights. He can come over while hubby is at work, so we can hang out for a while, then spend time the 3 of us. I'm still not sure if he will come or not..another thing that I am apprehensive about. I feel like I am in NRE, but he is not, I'm not sure what the result of that will be. He does say he feels a connection with me, and we had some wonderful moments and conversation last night, but when we are together and separately, it's a totally different feeling and I don't really know what that means.

-Jen

[TruckerPete]

To clarify, the no intercourse rule is for you and J alone? It sure sounds like you had some great sex last night! :D

I hear you on the attachment bit. My boyfriend is a pilot. 7 months ago I knew he'd have to move at some point ... now he has. But I lived in the moment with him as much as possible then and our relationship is changing now to be whatever it needs to be to see it through.

Although, because he's mono, I remember that at the outset, he was still looking for a nice mono girl to be with. What really helped me was for him to keep me informed. If he chatted with someone new online, I knew. If he was to go out on a date (only happened once), I knew, etc. I didn't take it to creepy stalker level and demand every detail of everything. Just the little bits of info helped me, because I didn't want to be blindsided by a One True Love.

[nycindie]

Hi Jen,
It all sounds wonderful!

And, yes, attachment, as in wanting and expecting things to stay the same, wouldn't be healthy nor practical. But I see no reason to hold back affection and caring (if that's how you see becoming "attached" to him).

You actually don't know that it will hurt, if and when J. finds someone else. If you tell yourself it will hurt, you could make it a self-fulfilling prophecy, but... where's the fun in that? It might hurt, but it might be something beautiful... there are other possibilities. You just might experience compersion and be happy for him. We always project the worst possible scenario when looking ahead or experiencing a rush of feelings. Why not project a great scenario?

If, after some time being involved, J. got a fantastic job offer that would take him out of the country and far away, wouldn't you be happy for him even though you would miss him? You would want the best for him, so it would be no different in a love relationship. If he wants a primary relationship and finds someone to love in that way, wouldn't you be happy for him? You also don't know where that could lead... A new friendship for you? A quad, maybe? This is all speculation about something that hasn't happened yet, anyway. If you hold yourself back NOW from feeling the joy and pleasure of what you have -- for fear of being hurt later -- you won't truly be present.

I have some friends who always say, "Live today like it's your last." That doesn't mean we don't plan for the future, but it does mean that we never know what will happen, so enjoy every precious moment now. Our time with the people we love will always be limited.

[JenAgain]

The no intercourse is between me and J at all, whether hubby is present or not. Hubby said he's not sure if he will ever feel comfortable with it, we will see where it leads. I'm totally cool with that, if it's what hubby needs to be okay with all of this.

I love the idea of being informed, but not to the stalker level. I wasn't sure how to bring that up without sounding clingy and hypocritical, but I might just read your post verbatim as it seems pretty clear!

And yes, great sex, an emotional high, after the last couple of weeks, and particularly 24 hours I am TOTALLY SPENT. It might take me a week to recover at this point! Haha.

[JenAgain]

nycindie,

Yes, my reference to attachment is the affection and caring, and allowing myself not to hold that back.

I love how you changed the perspective of that. Your post actually brought tears to my eyes. Hubby and J are both military, so any of us can get orders at any point. I know that this will always be a moment away from ending. I would definitely be happy for him if he were to find somebody else, because of the amazing relationship I have with my husband, I wish that everybody can find that kind of love and understanding. I feel like the luckiest person ever!

[JenAgain]

We're still a mix of emotions here. Hubby did tell me that he wants me to not hold back, he wants me to put everything into this, and he will work on the things he needs to cope with, while communicating still. Our boundaries are in place and he is content with those. He told J the same thing, though we aren't entirely sure if he got the message yet, as we do a lot of our talking through text and his phone has been a bit temperamental lately as far as delivery goes!! I'm hoping that will ease his reservations about things he tells me as well (J's, not hubbys).

It makes me smile, that he wants to see me happy, and loves me for me! It takes somebody truly remarkable to accept this situation, when you are not like minded. Every day I feel like our marriage grows stronger, and being able to wear my feelings outward has been relieving.

[JenAgain]

I feel like I'm writing a lot to myself here, but that's what journaling is about, right?

So many uncertainties here at the beginning of this journey. I don't know if it makes it easier, or more difficult to open the door before the emotions really start flowing. Hubby and I had all of the discussions and boundaries set before we proceeded, which was definitely a wise choice. Watching our relationship grow with this new found communication, has been such a wonderful experience. For our marriage, it was the best thing to do, and our marriage is the most important.

But now, here I am caught in this web of what ifs and don't knows. In my mind, I see this relationship between J and I, and between hubby and I, and hubby and J, then all 3 of us together in a comfortable state. J is interested in seeing where this goes, but I have to wonder if he really is interested in pursuing more than a casual relationship (with benefits), with me.

This is all so new, J and I don't really communicate outside of when he is here, and through text, which is not a very effective from of communication. It often leaves more questions than it does answers. He's coming back Friday for dinner, a movie, some one on one time for him and I while hubby is at work. It seems so far away and I have to reign in my thoughts and not ask him to deep of questions through text because I don't know that what I am after will come across right. In the meantime, I'm antsy as hell.

I want to know if he's holding back because of his relationship with hubby? Am I somebody that he would pursue if the situation where different? When he's here, it sure feels like it, but when he's not, I can't tell. When he's here, I feel a strong physical and emotional connection from both sides. When he's not... I get little of that and my thoughts wander. I don't want to be too aggressive, but when you know what you want, and what you like, it's hard to control that.

What I do know, is that in the last two weeks, through all of this I have felt more in tune with who I am, than I ever have. I feel like a better wife, and a better mother. I want to cherish these moments while I can.

[Beodude123]

I'm still reading, sometimes! Even though we talk all the time, it's still nice to see it in writing, since things usually come out more fluidly when written...

Anyways, I've been doing a lot better with the situation. I've put a lot of mental energy into the situation. It's been a bit of a rough ride for me, emotionally the last couple weeks. I've been working on breaking a lot of molds for myself. I've been talking with a couple of friends, and they've helped me out a lot. Mostly it was my own process of figuring out why my fears are there, and understanding them.


For a while, I didn't really want to see casual kissing. It scared me for some reason. Then, on Sunday night, I was thinking about it, and I realized that's how I show my love for people. I show my love through physical touching, kissing, hugging etc. So I felt like if they shared that too, it would lessed what I have. I know that's not true, and I never thought it, but it was what I felt.

Last night Jen and I were talking, and I madeanother pretty good step. I realized that I give out a lot of love. Most of the guys under me, I love them. Hand hugs, hugs, shoulder rubs... Haha They get a lot of love from me. It seems like the more good people around me I have, the more that I love them all. After I realized that, it made a little bit more sense how Jen operates. It's not quite the same, but it's very similar.

Also, just because of the way I initially viewed the situation, I looked at it like a problem. J was filling a role that I couldn't, and I wanted to fix that. That's what I do after all, I fix things. If it's not working, I change myself to fit the situation. Unfortunately, it's not something that I can do. It was hard for me to accept, but I've come to the realization that I do everything I can on a daily basis, and that's all I can do. Once I figured that out, it was a lot easier to accept that J filled a role I could never do, no matter how much I tried. If I can't fill it, why worry about trying to change myself, right?

I'm still working on getting over my fears, and breaking some long established values based on my life experiences, but I've made some very good progress. It seemed like every day the last couple weeks, I've put a lot of thought into the situation, analyzing every single thing. Last night, after the last couple of good stepping stones, I hardly even thought about it at all. It's still hard for me to understand the whole situation, but I'm getting there.

I told J he has to come over a lot more, so I can get used to the situation a lot faster. Plus, since his communication with Jen isn't superlative, it'll probably help her out too.

[TruckerPete]

That's really great to hear, Beo!

[JenAgain]

Okay, wow.. big steps made this weekend I think. I'm feeling the NRE coming on big time, mixed with guilt, pleasure, normalcy, awkwardness, happiness...

J came over last night as planned, it was a really long week. Our communication through text isn't very efficient, and I wasn't really sure what he was thinking or feeling. I was looking forward to spending some time with him to talk and get some things out there on the table.

Hubby ended up not having to work on Friday so what was originally going to be some one on one time, ended up not really being so, but that's okay. It worked out, and I still had my two favorite guys with me!

The night started off pretty much identical to last weekend, except I made a really big mistake. Hubby had left J and I to talk and have some intimate time. We did talk, and he did tell me that he feels a connection with me, and is wanting to work towards a more stable relationship even though there is always that possibility of him finding his "person". I told him I just wanted to stay in the loop so I could be prepared for when that happened, but for now... I wanted to cherish what we (all) have together. I felt this insane closeness and I went out to ask hubby if he would give me the okay to change the "no intercourse" boundary. He said no, and that it really upset him that I would ask and that it makes him question the trust issue. I apologized, and told him that I was asking because I would never do anything to break our trust, and neither would J. J didn't even know I was out there asking.

I went back in the room with J and we spent more time together, which I think ended up being more like 30 minutes or so. No boundaries were broken. J went to take a shower and I came out to check on hubby. I sat in his lap and hugged him and he started to cry saying that he didn't think he could do this. That he spent the entire time out here with his mind racing about what we were doing in there, but he didn't want to go in and check either. I told him exactly what went on, and hugged and kissed him and told him how much he meant to me and that I know how hard it is for him, and I can't even begin to explain the appreciation I have for him doing all of this for me to feel right. All at the same time I felt horrible pangs of guilt for feeling this way, I felt wonderful for the strides I made with J, I felt like it was all coming crashing down only moments after it felt like it was getting somewhere.

Thankfully J came out and he hugged hubby, and reassured him that he would never allow those boundaries to be broken, that he loves him, and us as a family. We all talked about it for a long while until the storm passed. The guys hugged, we had a group hug. Then somehow we all ended up back in bed... ha.

We all hung out a little longer, at one point I went to bed but woke up shortly after hearing the guys talking about things. I was listening and while I really wanted to elaborate on some of the things hubby was saying, I stayed out of it and let them have their words. When hubby came to bed, we hugged and kissed, and I asked him if he would mind if I went and spent some time with J, just because our time that we get to spend together is much more infrequent than what I get with hubby. One of the boundaries is that if hubby is available, that I spend that time with him, but was unclear how it applied when we were all together. Hubby said that was fine, so I went and snuggled and talked with J some more.

All in all, it was a wonderful time, I felt like we got a lot more out there on the table, and we are all learning and coping with how things are evolving. I'm happy, and trying to take everything in that I can about the moments that I get with both men. I feel like my relationship with hubby only gets stronger, and the one with J is actually making a turn towards how I envision my life with these two.

*smiles* My heart... it's happy.

[JenAgain]

and just like that... it was over.

I'm actually ending this. I'm not strong enough to go through all of the questions, and not knowing. I don't know that J knows what I really want, and I don't think he really wants to fill that roll.

Maybe someday, somebody will come into our life that will not only let me give some of my great big heart, but appreciate that, and maybe even give some back.

But for now, I'm so glad that I had this experience that not only taught me so much about myself, but brought my relationship with my hubby into this new deeper dimension. We have definitely grown from this, and for that I am grateful.

So with lots of tears, I guess this is the end of the beginning. I'll still be reading a lot though.. this is the place for me. I feel comfortable here with all of your big hearts. :)

[nycindie]

Hmmm, why not enjoy what you have without trying to make it into something else? Seems hasty to me to leave because you cannot mold something so new into a different thing, rather than going with the flow and just... being with the good stuff you've got.

[JenAgain]

You have a very valid point.

It's not quite over. We had a misunderstanding, and I thought J was being disrespectful, which I don't think I deserve. It wasn't so much because I can't mold it, though you are right, that I am struggling with that. More of the disrespected feeling. It did get a few things out there on the table though. He's coming over tomorrow so we can talk about them, just him and I. We'll see where it leads.

Hubby and I talked last night, and I don't want it to end, but I don't want to feel this way either, of course that was before things got somewhat straightened out this morning. Either way, we don't regret it one bit.. we've grown so much!!

Gah! Why does this have to be so hard??? I think it doesn't help that I'm overly emotional and totally PMSing right now :)

[nycindie]

Gah! Why does this have to be so hard??? I think it doesn't help that I'm overly emotional and totally PMSing right now :)

Ahh, fucking hormones!!! :rolleyes::D

[JenAgain]

Okay, *sigh* we are all back in a good place for the moment. As long as I can keep my crazy hormones in check.

So, nycindie, I'm taking your advice and enjoying it for what it is, for as long as it's here.

Thinking positive, positive, positive!

[JenAgain]

Still here.. still hanging on! Another week of ups and downs with J.

I've been trying really hard not to have expectations, and it worked well for a few days. My roller derby team had a karaoke fundraiser Saturday night, he surprised me by showing up and stayed the whole time, even sang a song with me and one of our other guy friends.

Hubby isn't one for bars, and he was acting a little cranky (which I found out why later) so when J asked us if we wanted to go out to another place after and he said no, but told me I could go if I wanted. I decided to stay and keep singing/dancing until J and our other friend were ready to go. We went to a pool hall where I met a bunch of people that Hubby works with, which was a little awkward since he wasn't there, but neat that I could put some faces to names.

So, I made another mistake and invited J over after without asking hubby and he got a bit upset about it. When I got home I asked him if there was something wrong and he didn't tell me at first, then in the morning he came in and told me what was bothering him. I apologized and will make sure to clear it with him before I invite J over again.

I wasn't expecting to see J again until late next week, as he is going out of town for an event. So I was surprised Tuesday when he sent me a text to see what I was doing for dinner, and seemed happy and upbeat about it. I told him what I was making and what time to show. Then he never showed up.... what the heck? He is habitually late, so I texted him back teasing him about it, nothing... called him after an hour thinking maybe he fell asleep... nothing. Called again at the two hour mark.. nothing. I was getting really upset because I couldn't figure out what happened between 2pm and 6pm that he would make him do a complete 180.

I couldn't think of any other explanation except that he must have fallen asleep (he has a crazy sleep schedule due to working midshift and having day appointments, etc), so I texted his roommate who told me he was there and awake which made me really angry. There was no excuse for at least not calling or sending a message and saying he wasn't going to make it for whatever reason.

He was acting rather nonchalant about it and I was getting more and more angry thinking all of this wasn't a good idea. I asked him to call me and I told him how all of this made me feel, and not only was it upsetting me, but it was upsetting hubby that he was treating me like this. He apologized and insisted he didn't mean to. That I was right, he should have called when he woke up and said said what happened. He asked if he could come the following night (last night), and he promised he would show.

I was angry with myself for letting myself get upset. I've been trying not to have expectations but when it was his idea to come for dinner I thought he would at least show. I hate that feeling, I feel weak.

He did show up last night, with chocolate even. We had a nice dinner with the kids (hubby works swings so he wasn't there with us), and once I got them in bed we had good conversation and snuggles. We talked about the situation some. He said that sometimes it worries him, but he couldn't give an exact example. That's when he backs off. I told him to try and see how it looks from my side and he said he could understand that and apologized and never meant to hurt either one of us.

He didn't stay too long as he had a long drive to the airport to catch a flight, but I felt like it was a positive step in the right direction. I'm still going to try not to have expectations, and just play it by ear. I didn't know it was going to be this hard!

[JenAgain]

Since our whole adventure started I've felt at home with the poly thing. It feels natural and a part of me. In my intro I said that I don't feel like my hubby is lacking anywhere.. I think he's perfect! What I don't really get and what I can't explain is that J brings something different to my life, it makes my happy.. happier I guess? Yet I don't feel like I'm missing anything from hubby. He doesn't get that. Heck, I'm not sure I really get it. He feels this sense of inadequacy, even though I tell him over and over again that he does everything for me that I could imagine.. what J brings, he just can't because it's different.

I think that's part of what has made this whole transition so difficult for him, and the natural jealousy thing of course. He sees me on a day to day basis, and I'm happy, but I do have my usual stresses. Business, kids, house...he helps so much with all he can, and I appreciate that, but I still stress about a lot of it. Especially lately as I've been really busy.

Since J isn't really involved in that part of our lives, when I see him, it's like an escape from that stress. I should also mention that it's not hubby that stresses me out at all.. he is my rock in all of this. I hate to see him hurting though. I feel guilty because he's going through these tough feelings. I feel like I'm being selfish and putting myself first. He doesn't like making me feel guilty so he's stuck between a rock and a hard place. I guess it sucks because we both care so much about each other, and we both want to fulfill each others needs, but there is one I have that he can't possibly fill, and it's not his fault, it's just the difference between him and I. He doesn't understand it no matter how many different ways I try and explain it.

How does one explain poly to a mono minded person?

[Magdlyn]

Well, I can't explain poly to a mono more than to say:

It's like with any friend. This one is fun to shoe shop with, this one is fun to watch a movie with, that one is fun to go hiking with, this one is fun to talk about religion with, that one is fun to talk about our kids with, this one is fun to cook with or do a craft, etc etc.

People are different and each friend we have fills a slightly different need. Personally I'd never be so arrogant as to think I could completely fulfill every need my gf has for what she looks for in a friend. So, with lovers, it just takes that and adds the sex/romance bit to it. Variety is the spice of life! New lovers can bring you new sexual tricks that you can then try out with your primary. New lovers can bring you a different perspective on life that can enrich your short journey on this plane. Ideally new lovers will enhance and enrich your relationship with your primary, not threaten and diminish it.

Of course, in my case, I am a cis-gendered* woman, and my gf is a pre-op transwoman. If I date a man, I get a guy who likes his cock and likes using it (she dislikes hers and wishes she had a vagina, so this hampers her enjoyment of sex sometimes). If I date a woman, I get to play with a vagina (tho I have not dated a cis-gendered woman since my gf and I met).

When my gf dates a guy (she has a bf now, since last November and is in love with him), she gets gender affirmation and the thrill of looking like a heterosexual couple when they are out alone together. (Before she started transitioning, she was living as a man and when she had a gf, they had the appearance of a het couple, but with her as "the man," it never felt right. And if she dated a guy, feeling like a gay male couple never felt quite right either.)

*cis-gendered-- born with a body to match the gender in your head

[Beodude123]

Arrogant? Maybe. But I think for the first six and a half years of our marriage, I filled all the needs she had. So is it wrong for me to be fighting with the fact that I can no longer fill all those needs? It's not easy to know somebody for that long, and watch them change a lot of things about themselves that you didn't know.

[Raven]

It might be worth looking at the idea that you *did* fulfill all of her needs for those six years. If there's a need she has that she knows you can't meet, she may have just been working to deal without it, especially in a marriage where the assumption is monogamy. There may have even been needs where she couldn't have put a name to it until it was being met.

I know in my situation, the above is true. I've always known there where things that Mal can't do for me, desires I have for a partner (mental, emotional, and sexual) that he's just not going to be able to fulfill. But I love him, deeply and passionately, he does meet quite a lot of needs for me, and I never, ever want to leave him. When we were first married, I was willing to do without everything he couldn't give me; it wasn't something I was happy about, but from the mindset of monogamy it was that or leave him, and there was no way in hell that I would leave him. I haven't had another partner yet, but simply the philosophical shift to polyamory that I *could* have those needs met means a lot to me, because it tells me that I don't have to deny those needs in order to stay with Mal.

This may not be the case in your situation, but it may be worth thinking about / talking to Jen about.

[JenAgain]

I don't think it's so much the fact that he was or wasn't filling all of those needs before. I don't think I related to what those needs were. I've always been happy. Every day we are together I love him more and more. He's an incredible man, and he treats me like a queen.

Before we met, I always felt polyamorous..I didn't know the name of it. I could honestly have feelings for more than one person, unfortunately, many times it wasn't reciprocated the way I felt and led to short term relationships or FWBs. Yes, as society teaches us you fall in love, get married, have children... that's the way it's suppose to be. That's what I did. I fell in love with Drew, we were immediately faced with hardships of moving overseas where everybody was a stranger. We only really had each other. We had a few close friends, but we weren't ones to go out and party so we never REALLY got to know most of them that great. Had we stayed where we were, I may have realized it sooner as we would have been around friends and places we were comfortable, maybe?

We've been here in Louisiana for over 3 years now. Our friendships have grown, we've met a lot of good people, now that we are more settled not only in location, but with our marriage and how much we've grown while we were together overseas, I think it opened up this greater world of communication and experiences. I know he regrets that first day, when I asked him if I could kiss J that really got a lot of this started... but I don't. Not because I found this poly side of me... but because I feel like I can be a better wife to him, a better mother. I'm a much more sexual person now, not that I didn't enjoy it before, but whatever it is that changed, made me crave it, where before I didn't, not since that NRE period faded away.

Yes, with that comes change. It comes with sharing my time, but not my love. That would be like saying that because I love my kids, or my family, that I'm taking away that love from him.. but I'm not.

So while in his eyes I've changed.. I really haven't. I just discovered who I always was.. this experience didn't make me poly, it just made me realize that it was comfortable for me. It filled some part that I didn't realize was missing. So we are still stuck... between him not wanting to say no, but thinking if he does I'll just do it anyway. Me wanting to refrain from the poly thing, because i don't want to hurt him, but cringing at the thought of it at the same time. I wont do anything without his permission, because he is my husband and I love him dearly. As hard as it is, if he's not okay with it, or at least willing to keep pressing forward, I can't do that to him.

Amidst all of this, and totally unrelated, I joined a roller derby team in January. It's awesome, I find my place there as well. I feel tough and sexy. Being part of the team has me out going to events that call for sexy dress...I feel amazing, I have this self confidence I didn't have before. Unfortunately he sees it all a part of the poly thing since it all happened at once, and that's another big change that's getting lumped together. It's all too much too fast I suppose. I still dress normal when I'm not doing derby stuff...but because I never really dressed sexy before it's a huge difference for him.

Inwardly, I always wanted to dress sexy and am some what of a closet exhibitionist, but I've always been self conscious about my body which kept me restrained. I felt too shy, and worried about peoples opinions to let what I felt come out. Even in front of Drew. I would take suggestive, but not too revealing photos of myself. I hated having sex with the lights on, or even take a shower. All of a sudden I have that... and it feels good to have that confidence about myself. Is it the derby thing? The poly thing? A mixture of both? I can't say for certain, but I feel like it's a positive change.. where as he is unsure. He's caught in the "I like what all of this has done for you.. but I don't like the reasons behind it". I don't know how we can get through it, except that one of us has to give....

[nycindie]

Arrogant? Maybe. But I think for the first six and a half years of our marriage, I filled all the needs she had. So is it wrong for me to be fighting with the fact that I can no longer fill all those needs? It's not easy to know somebody for that long, and watch them change a lot of things about themselves that you didn't know.

I am confused as to how this post fits into this thread. Are you JenAgain's hubby?

[JenAgain]

Yes he is.. he reads occasionally.. and I send him to read responses that I find pertinent :)

[Beodude123]

I think the worst part is that I feel caught between a rock and a hard place. Jen wants to have sex with J, but that was a boundary that we had agreed upon as being set. But she has been asking about it. I've been feeling a lot of anger to the whole situation, for whatever reason, but the fact is, I'm not entirely comfortable with the situation. In one hand, I want to make her happy, above all else, but at the same time, I have to balance my emotional needs with everything else.

So, can I say no in good conscience? No, I cannot. But at the same time, every fiber of my being wants to struggle against the whole thing. But Jen wants it, so how can I say no? Either way, I'm going to have to struggle with everything that comes after. If I fight it, I'll have the battle for acceptance, so why even bother? It's easier to just let it happen, no matter how I feel about it. The end effect is the same, right?

[nycindie]

People change and grow and develop new needs as they mature. Beodude, just because Jen has needs that another man could possibly fulfill doesn't mean you don't give her everything she needs from you. She is simply a person whose needs have grown and changed as she has. That doesn't mean you have to twist yourself to fit what you think J. is giving her, or could give her. He can give her those things because he is J. and you give her what she needs from you. We all have a rainbow of needs.

As far as sex and boundaries: a boundary is defined as a demarcation of the "farthest limit," or something that limits, confines, restricts, or restrains. Are such restrictions never negotiable? She was obviously willing to accept them at some point but as a person grows and changes, some boundaries and restraints become uncomfortable, perhaps even feel oppressive. Would you be comfortable sitting at the same desk you had in the sixth grade? I'm sure it would be too small and confining for you. Maybe you can look at it that way to understand what she is asking for in wanting to change the boundaries you set.

About sex -- for me, sex is a form of communication, a way to connect with another person via the body and not just words, that lets them know who you are on another level. So, as I see it, when you set boundaries against sex, even though you have accepted and to some degree welcomed the rest of their relationship, the restriction against them having sex prevents a deeper level of communication between them. Now, it's perfectly reasonable to ask for a slower pace, but you may not necessarily benefit from seeing such a liaison as a thing that will wound you. It could enrich you.

Try looking at the situation from different perspectives and asking yourself if the boundaries you have set are coming from things like a belief system you have been taught, a protective behavior against the idea that you will be hurt by it, insecurity, or what? Not to judge but to understand. Get to the heart of it and that is the only way you can have a real, productive dialogue with Jen about it without closing up and feeling at the mercy of what she wants.

Saying you feel stuck between a rock and a hard place seems to indicate that you feel if Jen has sex with J., it will victimize you in some way. If so, try imagining a "worst case scenario" -- what would you need to feel safe and taken care of by Jen, if she and J. were to move forward into a fully sexual arrangement? You and she might choose not to relax those boundaries, but either way, don't let yourself be terrorized by the mysterious unknown looming behind you. See if you can confront it and communicate to her exactly what scares you about the possibility.

To you both: be kind to yourselves, while also being brutally honest, in the process of dealing with all this.

[Beodude123]

If there is one thing this situation has brought up, it's a lot of honesty. I've been talking about my feelings more in the past month more than I have in my entire life.

Jen and I pretty much have a discussion about something or other pretty much every day. Each time we talk, or I talk with a few key friends I feel comfortable talking with about it, I find out what it is that is scaring me about it. Once I know why, it's easier for me to deal with. The sex thing is sort of new, so I haven't figured it out quite yet.



It just sucks because I can always logically make sense of it all. But then my mind starts to wonder, and it's pretty much always a bad thing.

[nycindie]

Each time we talk, or I talk with a few key friends I feel comfortable talking with about it, I find out what it is that is scaring me about it. Once I know why, it's easier for me to deal with. The sex thing is sort of new, so I haven't figured it out quite yet.

You don't have to have all figured out. Figuring out is something the mind does. That can come later. Just express your feelings, don't just talk about them but sit with them and let yourself really feel what comes up, see her reaction, look at it all from various sides. It's possible an answer or solution will come without figuring anything out, but from just being with what's going on inside you and in your relationship. You know what I mean? It's often those moments -- of looking at, expressing, and accepting your feelings -- when a realization dawns.

[JenAgain]

Thank you, Cindie, for your input. It's very much appreciated.

I'm hoping by being myself, and showing hubby every day how much I love and appreciate him that he will eventually grow more comfortable. That while so many things have changed, the foundation of what we are hasn't. We are still a solid team, full of love and respect for each other. I know that I couldn't imagine my life without him and part of what scares me in all of this. I do have a fear that he will say he can't handle this and leave me. At the same time I could never push him that far, so I fear that I will have to give up this found part of me.

I'm trying to take each day at a time, talking to him as much as possible and keeping everything out there on the table. This is probably one of the most difficult, yet most rewarding experiences I've had in my life.

[JenAgain]

I'm so exhausted. I feel like it's back and forth all of the time. Just when I think hubby is okay, he tells me he's on the verge of calling the whole thing off. I go from being fairly content and working on figuring out my own emotions, to being terrified about it coming to a stop but at the same time hating that I'm putting him through this.

He's usually such a happy, positive, person. What's bringing out the best in me, is bringing out the worst in him, and I don't know how to deal with that. How can I say that my feelings are more important than his when he means everything to me? He's my rock in life, and to have him not be stable and me be the cause of it.. breaks my heart.

I feel lost, I don't know the answer to any of this. Why does it feel so natural to me, but unnatural to him? Why can't I feel this fabulous just one love in my life? I can't imagine being married to anybody else, he's my everything, so why isn't it enough?

I just keep thinking if he can just stick it out, he'd realize that it's not so bad. Then I think, WHY do I need this? WHY do I need to put somebody I love through this? Yet, the thought of going back hurts just as bad because I feel like such a better me.. not just for me, but for him too.

Today, is not a good day.

[MonoVCPHG]

I'm so exhausted. I feel like it's back and forth all of the time. Just when I think hubby is okay, he tells me he's on the verge of calling the whole thing off. I go from being fairly content and working on figuring out my own emotions, to being terrified about it coming to a stop but at the same time hating that I'm putting him through this.

He's usually such a happy, positive, person. What's bringing out the best in me, is bringing out the worst in him, and I don't know how to deal with that. How can I say that my feelings are more important than his when he means everything to me? He's my rock in life, and to have him not be stable and me be the cause of it.. breaks my heart.

I feel lost, I don't know the answer to any of this. Why does it feel so natural to me, but unnatural to him? Why can't I feel this fabulous just one love in my life? I can't imagine being married to anybody else, he's my everything, so why isn't it enough?

I just keep thinking if he can just stick it out, he'd realize that it's not so bad. Then I think, WHY do I need this? WHY do I need to put somebody I love through this? Yet, the thought of going back hurts just as bad because I feel like such a better me.. not just for me, but for him too.

Today, is not a good day.

Thanks for sharing this Jenagain. I think you have captured the type of struggle many experience...How needs can conflict and how one person's fulfillment can be another person's pain. How do we rectify this when things so fundamental within us cause a sense of being trapped? "My happiness is not the happiness of others". "What makes me happy and healthy takes away from the person I love". How do you truly deal with something like that?
I think the only thing you can do is really appreciate every moment.

I have struggled with the same type of emotions for over two years now..they have not lessened..they have become deeper in fact.

Good luck with your struggle :)

[Beodude123]

Great... I was hoping it was a fluke that they have been feeling stronger lately... Not very reassuring. Do you ever feel anger Mono? It's recently been added to my long list of emotions...

I think it stems from the inevitability of it all. While I have a choice in all this, ultimately I feel as though the choice is already made, and cannot be undone. I can't expect Jen to go back to mono, after all that she has experienced. But at the same time, I've hurt more emotionally in the last 6 weeks than I have in years. Like Jen said, where is the balance?

Above all else, I want Jen to be happy. But at what cost? Is my effort to fill her needs by allowing her to explore poly ultimately negative? If I'm always emotionally strained, that takes it toll on Jen as well. The dynamic of our marriage is pretty much that one cannot be happy without the other. It's been like that since day one. Usually it was a pretty simple balance... But now, I'm not so sure.

If I say that I'm not comfortable with the poly thing, and Jen does try to be mono again, I would imagine it would always be in her mind. Not always in the front, but if some guy seems really nice, and she wants to talk to him or something... Oh well, too bad. Hubby wouldn't like that.


I've also been feeling envious. As hard of a time as I've been having, I kind of want to try and see if having a poly relationship myself would open my eyes. I did have something of a poly experience a while ago back in college. I met a girl online, and was planning on moving (from Oregon to Florida) to live with her. At the same time though, there was a girl at school that I really liked. Nothing was able to form, since she said "but you have a girlfriend", and that was that. But there was that connection.

So, I'm kind of just sitting in limbo right now, not really sure where this all is going to go. J is coming over tonight for a big talk, so we'll see how that goes.

[MonoVCPHG]

Do you ever feel anger Mono? It's recently been added to my long list of emotions...



I don't get angry...But I certainly feel frustrated at times. I have surrendered to just letting our destiny unfold. I am committed to us always looking out for each other and being family; that I can count on and have no doubt about. What will our differing natures lead to for us as a couple is unknown.

I don't see any way for us both to be completely fulfilled with respect to what we need/want from an intimate partner. We don't share philosophies about love...I am very mono and live partially mono (I love only one and have a somewhat closed relationship which is desired by many mono people), she is very poly and lives partially poly (she has several partners and has a somewhat open relationship which is desired by many poly people). But we are healthy right now...and happy and in love.

We have built something that has already defied the odds. We've overcome a tonne of social and philosophical differences but we always come down to the two main questions; 1) Can she have a level of open relationship that does not deteriorate the one we have? 2) Can I have a level of closed relationship that does not deteriorate the one we have?

This entire thing is different than your situation in one major way...I am the "other man". Her husband is also poly and understands her philosophy and how it feels to love more than one intimate partner.

If I were put in your same situation...I wouldn't even be here...it simply would not work for me.


If you have even a small interest in exploring poly for yourself I suggest you follow that. I truly believe that that is the only way to find understanding and develop a stable level of comfort with a poly partner. I don't need that level of comfort nor do I expect it...do you? There is no sadness in admitting this to myself....there is only acceptance that for right now it is definitely worth it :)

[ladyintricate]

...The dynamic of our marriage is pretty much that one cannot be happy without the other. It's been like that since day one. Usually it was a pretty simple balance... But now, I'm not so sure.

....I've also been feeling envious. As hard of a time as I've been having, I kind of want to try and see if having a poly relationship myself would open my eyes.

...So, I'm kind of just sitting in limbo right now, not really sure where this all is going to go. J is coming over tonight for a big talk, so we'll see how that goes.

I feel for you and you are being incredibly brave! You and Jen sound like you have a very similar relationship to mine and my husband's (and a similar situation - we were mono happily for a long time). I can tell just from reading what you both have written on here that you both love each other very much.

This is a really difficult time, but clutch on to what your heart knows: that she loves you and wants you to be happy and in her life! That is what is helping me get through my own "limbo."

If you think that exploring poly for yourself is a good idea then I say, by all means, try it. I have not personally gotten to that place yet, but I don't think that anyone should rule something out if it has a possibility for growth and most importantly if it brings you fulfillment.

It also sounds like J is a great man who completely respects you and your place in Jen's life. Maybe getting to know him better will help you to feel more secure. You are doing an amazing job already! I hope I get to the place where you and definitely Mono have already gotten to. Acceptance, letting go, trusting in love...these are all things I am working on for now.

Hugs! Hope all goes well tonight!

[redpepper]

Hi there. Just checking in... :) I have been reading, but really I have nothing to add that would be helpful at this point. There is really no answer, only movement forward with what you have until such time as its not working any more. That concept seems to settle with time. There isn't the same fearful, painful, achy, frustrating crazy making anguish, that you seem to be going through right now, forever. It comes and goes after a time.

I have become super aware of who comes in my life and how I feel about them where men are concerned. No one matches Mono in my eyes ;) let alone is worth what he offers me. I don't know if that will continue, but for now I have just let it go and agreed to compromise... no rules, no boundaries.... just endless compromise. Most days I don't feel it.

Hopefully you will get to some semblance of normalcy back. Somehow change occurs when least we expect it... when it is forced it seldom seems to work out to everyone's benefit. The good news is that when you let it go the feeling is of much more happiness and gratitude for you DO have rather than for what you don't.... at least that is what I am experiencing.

[JenAgain]

Thank you everyone, for your responses.

Last night did not go anything like I thought it would, in fact, quite the opposite. I'm feeling numb and even more confused.

The guys got out of work late, after midnight, and J who is admittedly less than punctual was even later by the time he went home and changed and whatever else he needed to do. It was coming up on 2AM by the time he got here.

Before J got here, I was trying to give Hubby lots of love. Other than repeatedly showing him my affection and telling him how much I love him, I don't know how to keep reaffirming him. I'm trying to do everything I can to make him comfortable, or at least tolerable while we work through the emotions. Apparently it had the opposite effect. He took it as me being so excited that J was coming over that I was extra lovey and he didn't know why he can't have that effect on me (which I REALLY don't get because he does!!). I was trying to keep pretty indifferent on J coming because I knew I was going to be presenting him with a lot of information and wasn't sure how he was going to respond. I didn't want to have expectations about his response, and while yes, I was glad that I would be able to see him, I was also nervous.

Hubby was really tired and had gone to bed, he told me to wake him up after we had our talk so he can put in his 2 cents. He came out about 5 minutes before J got here and gave me a big long hug and said... I can't do this anymore.

Punch. In. The. Gut.

I wanted to throw up. I couldn't believe that J was going to be here any minute and this was happening. I was trying to keep indifferent about what J might say, but when hubby said that out of left field it blindsided me. I wanted to cry, to scream, to vomit. I wanted to say okay, whatever will make you happy again, and agree to forget it. I couldn't do any of it, I just held him and hugged him. I had no idea how to respond because my emotions were everywhere. I felt torn and hurt.

I asked him if we could just get through this talk with J before we made any huge decisions. He apologized and said okay.

So J showed up right then, and hubby went back to the room so we could talk. J walked in and gave me a big hug and I just cried. Poor guy, didn't know what hit him. I told him I had a novel for him (I had written everything out to make sure it all came out in the right order and how I intended to say it), to grab a beer and come sit. So he read my book, okay it was really only 2.5 pages. We discussed it.

He apologized for not being truthful, for seeming to go back and forth about being in this. He said this situation is different for him. He's not used to being so accepted. He said that he DOES want to be here and in this with us. It's a change for him too. We talked about the things that I struggle with and he agreed to work harder on those and apologized for hurting me, and Drew in the process. He gave me a little insight on his inner workings. He even suggested that now that he has one less obligation during the week that he can probably come see me some evenings before work, which was nice to hear.

I sat there and hugged him for a long time, he kissed my forehead, and I was terrified that after coming to an understanding, as soon as I got hubby, it was going to be all over. That this was the last time I'd be able to be close to him.

So I went and got hubby, gave him a quick rundown of our conversation and he came out. It did not go well. He was introverted, and angry. He said he felt like he was walking around depressed and spacey. I felt outnumbered because with him acting totally out of character, I knew J wouldn't do anything that he thought was detrimental to our marriage so I was frustrated that he (hubby) wouldn't talk this out.

I don't want to say I don't feel like he's tried, I certainly think he has, but at the same time I feel like it hasn't been a fair amount of time of us being in a happy place for him to make a great judgment. That's not really coming out the way I mean... but it's so new in this whole experience, I mean we are about 6 weeks in from the first kiss, and this has been the 5th time J has been over in that time period. I feel so many of his feelings are based on thoughts of what he thinks will happen, instead of what is actually happening.

When J is here, we all get along great, and Hubby seems to ease up, but it's the time in between that it gets all jumbled up. After a while of getting nowhere, J cracked a couple of jokes, and hubby started to relax a little and come out of his shell. Of course then the conversation changed to a different subject and there I sat, full of tears still unsure of where this left us. I'm still there.

The guys held hands, I love it when they do that, haha. It gives me warm fuzzies. J told us that he loves us, I told them both how important they both are to me, and hubby said he loves us too. I feel that love when we are together, so I'm lost as to what happens in the middle. Hubby went to bed, and I was still left with no answers from him as to where this leaves us.

I stayed up with J for a while, we talked about random things and I hugged him and didn't know if I should feel guilty or comforted. He was getting tired and going to bed and asked if I wanted to tuck him in.. so I went and laid down with him for a while. I was torn between wanting to go in with hubby and be with him after this evening of hurt, and wanting to spend it with J since he is here so much less and I don't know if this is going to be the last opportunity I have. I couldn't sleep either way, didn't want to. After an hour I got up and went in with hubby. He told me how much he loved me, and I told him the same. Yet I still have no answers, and I feel lost. Unsure of who has to make the sacrifice. Torn between feelings.

[BrigidsDaughter]

I'm sorry that you're struggling with this, Jen. *hugs* Wolf came out to me as poly a few years before I ever fell for someone. I had people I loved and was poly at heart, but didn't have that head over heals feeling for any of them. When Wendigo came along I never believed that it'd ever be anything more than me helping out a friend. Sometimes Wolf goes through a rough patch where he thinks it isn't fair, where he feels like I "stole" his best friend out from under him, and it hurts. I cry inside and wonder if I should break things off, but he assures me that would hurt him more. We're 20 months into this and I can tell you that things do get better, but no matter how much you love them, some of the work is theirs to do. You can't own it or you'll be constantly doubting yourself. *hugs*

[nycindie]

It is good that you are all talking about your feelings. It's great to get it all out. But be patient.

The hard part will be to remember that none of you necessarily has to act upon or change anything right away when difficult or stormy feelings come to the surface. You can sit with them a bit, let things settle down, before making any decisions.

Try to become aware of your thought process, in order to know which feelings are genuine responses that rise up naturally and which ones are familiar states that we know how to stir up with our thinking (and perhaps over-thinking) about stuff. If the thoughts start to race, and feelings bubble up that seem overwhelming, breathe and sink into your body. Do something physical, it helps.

All the best to you all.

[SNeacail]

Your husband is faced with having to share two people he loves as well as the fear of both of those relationships changing and not sure how it will end. Have you talked to him about his feelings about his relationship with J? It seems this may be a significant factor in his struggles. Has J been able to spend time with just your husband since this started or is the only time the guys get together is with you there also?

[redpepper]

Just a note to give you a hug and to suggest not having these kinds of deep talks in the middle of the night when people are tired. Its better to call it off. Get some sleep and go for breakfast. Drama occurs quite easily when people are tired or hungry. Sometimes unecessarily. I also wanted to suggest that your men take you out of the equation and go do something together. Men process differently than women. That sense of being commrades that share needs to build.it won't with you around. They need to work on being metamours

[Beodude123]

Well, yesterday was pretty rough. I might have bad timing, but I didn't say "I can't do it" lightly... When Jen said, "let's just get through tonight", it really hurt. So I started out yesterday pretty unhappy. I'm pretty sure I haven't been getting enough sleep this last week, so that could very well be why I've been angry... Anyways, I was feeling pretty depressed all day.

Jen had a Mardis Gras parade to skate in for her roller derby team. I really didn't want to go when I was at home, but it was pretty fun when I got there. It was sort of at a bad time though, considering all that was going on, and I really needed her with me. I got the kiddos home and in bed, and waited for Jen to get home.

Once she got back, we just snuggled for about an hour, talking the whole time. I cried a lot, more than I've cried before. It felt really good to get it all out, and I think we covered the bases of why I was affraid of things. I still have a lot of insecurities about myself right now. It's not easy to be everything to somebody for 7 years, and then have them say that they are more fulfilled now... We also talked about her time, and how much it means for me to have as much time with her as I can. She's been really busy with work and things, so I don't really get to see her as much during the week. I love every minute I get to spend with her, especially now with how close we've gotten. Having to share the few moments with another person is hard. So we talked about her not working for a bit, so we can get more time together.

I told her that I need a 100% from her, that if I can't do it, that she would stay with just me. But she said that she didn't think 6 weeks was enough, especially with how Jen and J really got on the same page on Friday (hopefully anyways). So I told her I would try my absolute best to stay positive about it all, but if I keep feeling like this for the next month, that I can't do it.

It's not right for me to sacrafice this much if I'm not happy. I like it when he is there, but it's more of our friendship that I cherish, and sort of not watch Jen and J as their own couple. Jen wondered if it would be easier for me to not see it, but if I am to accept them together, I need to see everything, and be there the whole way. If it's not in my face, it's kind of out of sight, out of mind. That just wouldn't work for me.


Sorry if things are jumbled up. It's been a pretty emotional week for me, and kids were up early...

[JenAgain]

I felt our conversation last night was good. The only thing I'm concerned about is putting a time limit on it. Saying "well, lets give it one month, and if I don't feel better about it, it's off". I'm willing to work with that, I think it's fair that he is giving it more time, but I'm also afraid that he will just "make it" through the month knowing it can come to an end, rather than really honestly try and work through these feelings.

I'm also concerned that knowing that there is a time limit, I'll be trying to cram everything I can into it because in a month, it might be over.

I think one of the better aspects of last night was where we switched from looking at it in a negative light, to a positive one. What has REALLY changed in all of this? Looking at the big picture, the bottom line. I still am the same person. He is still the same person, and we still have that amazing dynamic between us. The sex is better and far more frequent. There is a deeper level of emotional connection. The big thing that's changed... time. I have to share my time between them.

It doesn't help that I've had extra derby things going on the last week, and have been slammed with work orders that also has me out running errands to get supplies. So my time is already spread pretty thin. I'm taking some time off of work because my family is way more important to me than making some extra money.

The guys never really did much together before all of this. I mean, J would come over and they would play video games and what not, but I was pretty much always here. When I was out of town for a week or so they hung out a lot.. but I don't leave too often. They work together (though not on the same shift right now), so they see each other there. Perhaps we need to work on getting them some more dude-bro time. :)

[Magdlyn]

Yeah, giving it one month is such a short period of time. It can take many months or even a year or two, to find a healthy yummy sexy respectful way to open a formerly closed relationship. Be true to yourselves, don't give in to panic, read a lot, learn from others' experiences and hold onto your trust and respect for each other.

[Beodude123]

A month might be short, but if I feel like garbage the whole time, how is that right? While I don't want to deny part of what Jen is, if it tears me up to see her with somebody else, then it just can't work. It's mostly just to make sure I can handle everything. It's not like she only has one month to experience it all.

[nycindie]

I felt our conversation last night was good. The only thing I'm concerned about is putting a time limit on it. Saying "well, lets give it one month, and if I don't feel better about it, it's off". I'm willing to work with that, I think it's fair that he is giving it more time, but I'm also afraid that he will just "make it" through the month knowing it can come to an end, rather than really honestly try and work through these feelings.

I'm also concerned that knowing that there is a time limit, I'll be trying to cram everything I can into it because in a month, it might be over.

There are more possibilities. What about saying that at the end of the month, there will be a renegotiation or an agreement to look at other ways to deal with it?

[Beodude123]

I have to admit, the last week has been rough for me. I've been on 12s, and working all night. I'm a pretty light sleeper when it comes to kids, so I hear a lot. Trying to sleep with two tornadoes in the house was rough. So I've been very tired. The lack of sleep led to anger. Because of the newness of everything, I think I was focusing my new feeling (the anger) on the new situation (poly). So the last few days have been very negative. I also am a very physival person. I express my love with touch. The last week hasn't allowed me much time to have contact with Jen, so that has negatively impacted me as well.

With some sleep, some good snuggle time, and many tears, I feel much more positive. I know that what we have will never be diminished, even though the fear is still there. I know that I will never be replaced, and can never be replaced.

Still though, these completely rational thoughts have some very irrational fears behind them. I wish I could constantly focus on my rational thoughts, because when I do, everything makes sense. You can love more than one person, and it can be okay. But there will always be the fear.


So, I just have to keep talking, and hope things work out. Maybe posting here helps, because writing can help you get your thoughts together, in a way that segmented texting can't.

Thanks for everybody's support!

[redpepper]

A month is not long and it does get easier over that time. You can say a month and change it even if you find you are doing better than you thought or need more time... a month, or any time frame is more to make sure there is an end date in order to know that there will be a time to talk it all out again....

The level of intensity might have a mind of its own and month might be too short, but you don't have to do it all at once... I'm one to talk of course. I do everything now! but PN often is not able and I find slowing down really helps the intensity of the emotions that need talking about.

Just so you know... it took Mono, PN and I until this past fall to come to a place where we feel secure, and balanced... what's that; a year and ten months? Ya, a long time... Rome wasn't built in a day... Derby and I are still working on our balance and various parts of our settled in relationship after a year. It takes time, patience and perseverance. You're doing great so far :)

[Beodude123]

Thanks Pepper. It wasn't so much the timeframe... It was the knowledge that if I can't accept Jen in a poly lifestyle, that my whole world wouldn't come crumbling down. With how I'd been feeling the last week, I needed that timeframe. It is very open to change, not unlike boundaries. But for now, a month seems like a good starting point. Jen truly means the world to me. I really figured that out last night (not that I didn't know it before, but you know what I mean). I wouldn't want to live without her. It is comforting for me to have a time frame. I figure if I can't come to terms with everything in a month, at the very least to be able to accept it all, then it probably won't happen in the long run.


Not that I would shut the idea down completely forever, but at this stage yes.

So, us starting as a mono relationship, and her switch to poly... I'd say we are doing well. All of us (J included) have our own struggles to deal with. While I feel like mine are harder, due to my inexperience with poly, and being the changee, I know it's not easy on Jen. It doesn't help that the last few weeks has been a big back and forth for me in terms of acceptance.

Every day we talk brings to light the reasons of why I feel the way I do. While it doesn't make the fear go away completely, knowing why it is there in the first place helps me to cope with the fear itself. My fear of loss (in a very basic sense) is very extreme, due to how much Jen means to me. I know that she won't go anywhere, but I think societal values pushes me to think that it can't work. It's hard to get around that, but I work on it every day.



Today has been a good day, and I'm feeling a lot better. I still have a lot to work through, but at least the positive is back, and I can move forward with that.

[MonoVCPHG]

My fear of loss (in a very basic sense) is very extreme, due to how much Jen means to me. I know that she won't go anywhere, but I think societal values pushes me to think that it can't work. It's hard to get around that, but I work on it every day.



.

Here's a little thing I wrote about fears of loss particularly with mono/poly relationships.

Fears of loss in a Mono/Poly relationship (http://www.polyamory.com/forum/showthread.php?t=181)

[redpepper]

Good for you realizing how much she means to you and striving for attempting change in your relationship because of it. That is the hugest hurdle I think. If someone is willing to even attempt to allow change to come and to put everything on the table to do so, that is very brave to me. You can't ask much more than that. A month, a year,,, however long that takes.:)

[Beodude123]

The worst part about it though, is if I can't accept it. I've told Jen I love everything about her. What happens when I say "I love everything about you, but..."? I don't want to deny what she has become, but at the same time, I don't want to put myself down to meet her needs.

I hope it doesn't come to that, because I know how happy it makes her. But it's just difficult for me to adjust to everything that's new.

[redpepper]

I don't want to deny what she has become, but at the same time, I don't want to put myself down to meet her needs. Well, she didn't BECOME poly, she just is. So it would mean loving her for who she is. This is news to you and its okay for you to be going though this.. No one is expecting you to push yourself down. If its not going to work out, if it is something you just can't over come, if you need to move on because this is too big, then that is what is meant to happen...

Mono says we will be good friends and family still. He will live here if he can emotionally and be involved in my life, and our families, but not like he is now. We have made a plan for if I find someone I just cannot pass up. It was an eye opener to go through that process and has meant a change in how much effort I will put into my relationship with Leo... it made me think differently about him and my desire to include him in my life at this time.

If after a month you still need time, then take it... if after however long it is just too painful and unhealthy then it's time to make a change to move apart from each other. It might be wise to talk about what that would look like. So that when you are both faced with, "I can't do this any more" you know what the plan is. That doesn't mean using that as manipulation though. It's okay to say "I am really struggling right now," but to say "I can't do this any more" becomes the trigger for the plan you make. Be sure that you are very sure it is time to make that move.

That being said, you might find you never get there and that there is no reason to orchestrate the plan... you just don't know and there is no point in stressing about it. Really the best you can do is plan, educate yourself on her, him and yourself and let it seep in over some time...

[JenAgain]

For me, I don't think moving on is an option. I feel strongly that I am poly, and as hard as it would be for me to go back to suppressing that part of me, my marriage is infinitely more important. We have something that very few people have together, and I know I'm asking a lot of him. We've both had a lot of emotions and difficulties through this as I'm sure most people do, but it is moving along, albeit slowly.

We've both felt trapped, and confused, but bottom line is, I couldn't remove myself from him because of a need to love others. He is that important to me, and I can't imagine my life without him in it.

Granted it would be a whole lot easier for me, if he can come to an acceptance for this, and even enjoy what we both get out of it.

I really like the idea of "I'm really struggling with this right now", over "I can't do this anymore" because it is such a finite statement. I prefer that we take a step back and reassess, rather than cut it off completely, because feelings don't work that way.

We have had some good talks over the last couple of days. CAtching up on sleep has definitely helped. He's feeling less angry and more comforted. He's been telling me what his needs are (more affection, lots of loves and cuddles and reminders that we are still US, and my love for him is unwavering).

We've also discussed the sex thing. His fear of it. We've come to an agreement that we will let it happen once to start. Not opening it for good, but just a try. He wants to know when it happens (likely soon), and when it does we will reflect and process and discuss future interactions.

I don't feel like it's something I want because I don't get enough from him, or that I feel like I just want it from J. I feel like I need it for me, to express myself, and my feelings. It makes me feel amazing to have that connection with somebody and it's like opening that piece of my heart.

Hubby has a fear of what it will change, but my thoughts were if he waits until the fear is not there, he will never be okay with it. That we need to open that door, if even just once, to test it out and see if that it is a legitimate fear, or will it really not change as much as he thinks it will.

For today, we are in a good place. Poor J has gotten blasted with deepness lately, and he's still sticking it out with us, so that means a lot to me. He's not a very deep person, and I think has difficulty communicating at this level, or at all really, hah.

I admittedly did not proof read this, so if it doesn't make a whole lot of sense, my apologies for the rambling. :)

[MonoVCPHG]

Hubby has a fear of what it will change, but my thoughts were if he waits until the fear is not there, he will never be okay with it. That we need to open that door, if even just once, to test it out and see if that it is a legitimate fear, or will it really not change as much as he thinks it will.

:)

Check out the movie "Freebie" It has one perspective but does convey some very good emotions.

Some times you need to push, I agree. But you have to be prepared for the results..and no one can predict how they will respond to an experience for the first time.

[Beodude123]

I think because of the fact that I won't be there for the act (I work on swings, J on mids), it won't have as big of an impact. Still though, after we reasses, and if I choose to move on, I'd want to see it. That way I can understand everything about it, what it does for Jen, and indirectly what it can do for me.


I've been trying to talk to J more as well. Jen and I have superlative communication, but it's harder to talk between two guys. So, I think if we keep on talking between each other, it'll help me to realize that it's a good thing.


As far as the splitting up thing, Jen and I are one and the same on that front. If it does come to her having suppress that part of her, I would feel very guilty about it. We'd definitely both have a lot to work out, but we would work on it like we always have; together. She truly is the most important thing in my life, and I'm glad she feels the same. After all, if she wasn't this important to me, I wouldn't have been able to open up what we have together, no way no how.

[redpepper]

"Freebie" is an awesome moving to watch on the sex issue. Mono and I watched it together and it really struck home about where I am at with Leo. One really doesn't know how one will react afterwards, as much as you can guess, it is HUGE... like MASSIVE... in terms of emotions and where one is at afterwards. It isn't just a one time thing, its everything. Just trying it a little is not possible. Just one time is not just a little thing.

For PN and I the sex part was always a huge leap into a relationship and we decided after some very painful experiences not to go there until EVERYTHING was just right. Us as a couple, everything on board as a partnership with our other, our metamour relationships... and still it was a leap from 0 t 100 in the space of a short period of time.

We take sex very seriously though in terms of it being a bonding and connecting experience that is shared and then remembered for life. Some don't view it that way, but after more painful experiences, we came to this realization.

Might I suggest Jen that you wait some more? I know its hard to do, but today was a good day for the two of you after a very rough weekend and just enjoying that might be an idea... maybe let things settle until Beo is saying "oh for the love of pete, do it already!" I personally have had better results with this method,,, as has PN...

Mono I slept with within a week and it made for a very rough ride... PN went away with his girlfriend and they didn't have sex! I was screaming for him to get it over with after months of being in pain over the thought... by the time he did it I was relieved! I had preciously been disgusted to the point of vomiting and not touching him for over a week with another woman and with this one I was full of joy (compersion) by the time they actually did it... I was pushing him out the door to do it again... ;) Worked much better for my jealous heart... I was completely through the jealousy by then.

Just a thought... have a look at Mohegan's blog (which way to turn)... she has written a lot about Karma and his girlfriend before they had sex... as has Derby. I think its in her old blog though... you might want to ask her how to find it.

[Beodude123]

Jen and I had another good talk tonight... I think a lot of my problems stem from the fact that I keep trying to be everything to her. I know it's not possible to be everything to one person, no matter how hard you try. I can rationalize that. However, my brain keeps telling me that I need to try and do everything. I obviously can't be a second person viewing her as the sexy goddess that she is....

So, how can I let go of having to be everything on my own, and let somebody else do the work for me? Like Jen said tonight, letting go of that struggle, would in and of itself, let me be everything to her. By accepting who she is, in entirety, I would once again reach that everything, even if I can't make that happen on my own.

That right there is some deep physchological stuff. I'll have to digest this more tomorrow, but I think it's a healthy step in the process. I've discovered there are so many steps in it all... I think I've overcome about 10 or 15 so far, and this has been in a short few weeks.

[Beodude123]

Now that I think about it, I think this is probably the center of many of the feelings I have. I feel jealousy, because of the fact that I can't directly provide the need Jen has from another. I feel inadiquate for the same reason. I feel like I want to try my hardest to fill that every need, no matter how impossible. Is it dumb? Sure it is. I know Jen needs more than just what I have to offer. But freaking damn, it's hard.

I am, as a person, have a want to fix things. If something isn't complete it's wrong. So I want to try and fix it. Jen isn't complete with just me, but I try my hardest to be it all. Thing is, I can't. So now, I have to figure out how to direct my energies toward making what I physically can't bring to the table, a positive.

That right there is probably the basis of my issues. I want to fix everything, but I can't as a single human being. By accepting what she is, and allowing her to be that person, I would fulfill all her needs. So, the balance. Where does one stop trying, and just relax, and let things be?

I struggle so very hard with this. Jen is my everything. I cannot imagine life without her. I feel as though she feels the same way towards me (but slightly different).


So, any of you mono folks have any advice of how to let go of the desire to fix, and understand the desire to accept unconditionally?





While this is definitely not a problem, my slightly rational mind views it as such, and wants to fix it. How can I balance fixing, with release? Obviously I cannot be everything to everybody, no matter how hard I try.

[JenAgain]

Another good, yet interesting couple of days.

RP, while I do take your advice to heart, I also feel our situation is slightly different (as they all are). J has been a part of our lives for nearly 3 years, and going on 2 months of our journey, which I realize is short in the big picture, but has seemed like a really long time for me as far as being able to express myself and my feelings towards him completely.

That said, he came over last night, my intentions and Drew's understanding was that this was going to be the night that it happened. He was feeling okay, prepared, we discussed it the night before, and again yesterday afternoon. Of course, I had hinted to J, but didn't straight up tell him what I was hoping for!

So after dinner, and the kids were in bed we talked, and snuggled, and things progressed. In the heat of the moment, I said "please tell me you have a condom!" Of course I have never known him not to have one, so it didn't even dawn on me to get some until earlier in the evening. I couldn't really leave and didn't want to lug the kids down to the store just for that so I was like, Nah.. he'll have one. His response was "Wait, What? I didn't expect sex!?"

Insert laughs.

We contemplated one of us getting dressed and running down to the gas station around the corner to get one, and then he suggested that since we are all in a good place right now, that we wait this time and enjoy the comfort we all have. So we waited.. as hard as it was for me. I immediately texted hubby and said "No sex! You can relax, I repeat, there has been NO sex!!" He laughed and asked what happened so I told him. It ended up being a great moment, and night for me.

J and I seemed to have some extra bonding moments, shared some good laughs and I learned more about his life. I feel like he's been giving it some extra effort this week as well. He says this is all new and different to him, so he has some adjusting to do as well.

So J went to work, and Hubby came home and we snuggled and reflected on the night. This morning he was up early with the kids, so he was a little cranky. When he's tired his thoughts tend to gravitate towards negativity, so he came in the room, and we talked it out some more, as far as his feelings of wanting to be able to meet the needs that I have. Except for me telling him how perfect he is, just the way he is... that I don't expect anything more from him, and I love him dearly.. I don't know how else to help. That the feelings of inadequacy is something that he's going to have to work through on his own... that all I can do is just keep giving him those affirmations.

All in all, I think it's been a good few days.

[nycindie]

. . . any advice of how to let go of the desire to fix, and understand the desire to accept unconditionally?

Beo, I suspect this need to fix things comes up in other areas of your life as well. I'll bet if you take a look at work, family, friendships, you might find that you see challenges as problems to resolve and that possibly, somewhere in you in feels good to be the one to make it all better. Like the knight in shining armor, or a superhero. Being the fixer probably seems to fill a hole you feel inside yourself, and if you weren't with Jen and in this current situation, you would probably feel that way if you were alone or with someone else. Could be that this comes from very old decisions you made as a kid or young man when you saw things happen that looked hurtful to people or to yourself. Now you always want to fix things and this situation brings that out in you, because that's a lens through which you are just used to looking at the world. Step back, and see if that's a pattern of yours. If it is, you can become free of it by becoming aware of it, knowing it will arise because it's a default thought process in you, and then you can just let it play in the background like a radio in the other room, and then be able to respond to life in the moment, not from an old familiar pattern of behavior. We all do this.

If you look at this need of yours to fix things as just a pattern that plays all the time in you, you then can realize that you don't need to give credence to it and then will begin to "get" that Jen's need and desire to expand her love beyond her relationship with you is not a reaction to a shortcoming on your part, or anything that needs fixing.

[Beodude123]

Heh, definitely hit the nail on the head for that one. Let's see here. At work, I fix airplanes. I'm a supervisor now, and people come to me with their problems, and I do what I can to fix it. In my spare time I fix cars (sometimes breaking them in the process... Haha). So yeah, I'm very much a fixer.

I've been trying to not want to fix it, but since it's part of my nature, it's not exactly something that I can just tune out.



All in all, I think I'm doing pretty well. I've overcome a lot of my own insecurities so far. Now I'm working on something else. I keep learning things about myself, and figuring out how to overcome them.

[nycindie]

. . . since it's part of my nature, it's not exactly something that I can just tune out.

. . . I keep learning things about myself, and figuring out how to overcome them.

Glad to have shed a little light there for you.

About what I quoted above, sometimes we don't necessarily need to tune out or overcome the ways we are and behave. Often it's more helpful to simply accept these things about ourselves, and just let them be without judging or thinking we have to change them (you are a fixer! ;) ). That's why I said, just know it's there, a part of you, and let it play in the background. Acknowledge it but don't let it rule how you approach things. That's not really tuning it out or turning it off. Then you can respond to what is, what is happening and real, in the moment. Eventually those old patterns let go of us.

It sounds like you both are doing good work on understanding yourselves. Sounds like a good space to be in. Bravo!

[redpepper]

RP, while I do take your advice to heart, I also feel our situation is slightly different (as they all are). J has been a part of our lives for nearly 3 years, and going on 2 months of our journey, which I realize is short in the big picture, but has seemed like a really long time for me as far as being able to express myself and my feelings towards him completely.
I'm not sure how we differ that much... not that it matters, but the non-sexual boyfriend I have had has been in my life for over two years... Same length of time as Mono, I met them at the same time.

I have just been through a big moment in our relationship since just before Christmas...

As you say though, people are different... still, it could be nothing... or it could be major, you just won't know until you do it.

Sounds like you had a good night in any case.

[JenAgain]

Yes, I can see how in the grand scheme of things it's not really a whole lot different. I do feel that it's the best way for hubby to be able to be okay with it because of his nature to over think.

Things are still going well. Hubby and J shared some messages where J said that he's really enjoying the closeness we all have when things are going well. Hubby also told J that he can take me on a date, and J responded that if he took me out, he also had to have super man dude time with hubby, haha.

They took a picture of them doing a man bear hug at work, and sent it to me which made my day. I have it set on the background of my phone and I grin from ear to ear every time I look at it.

Trying to think about today and not tomorrow or the next day, but I'm really enjoying the now and hope it continues.

[JenAgain]

Still here, and still have not had sex with J. It's been both frustrating, and good.. I've felt like we've had some good connections the past week and a half, and some good progress. He seems to be making somewhat of a conscious effort in giving us more time with him. Both one on one with me, and with the three of us. There hasn't really been much of an opportunity for him to hang out with hubby much, though we know that definitely needs to happen for the sake of their relationship.

While I feel like he has been putting in an effort there, I still feel like I'm constantly chasing him and getting very little in return emotionally. Some days are better than others. I want to back off, but I do miss him when we don't chat. I really enjoy his conversation (well, through text anyway). Some days he's very responsive and in to whatever it is I have to say... some days it seems like he is disinterested. He rarely asks his own questions, and that is frustrating for me. I'm trying not to have expectations, but to have NO expectations seems impossible.

I was having a down day today as J did not respond much to my texts, though to his credit, he has been sick for a few days. I feel like I'm not allowed to be bummed about it, since it was my choice to be here. I know that's not the case, but hubby doesn't know how to respond. He seems to think it's consistently negative with J, when it's not. Of course I'm partially responsible, because I try not to show my excitement with the good stuff that happens because I'm also afraid to hurt hubby's feelings when J makes me happy. I try and stay neutral either way, but it's very difficult.

I don't know, J is coming over tomorrow for dinner and to hang out a few hours before he goes to work, and I do want to pick his brain about some things, so maybe there will be more progress. I wish I wasn't so impatient to have answers NOW. :)

[nycindie]

Hi Jen,
This may be a case of J. being a "Yo-Yo Man" -- my term for a guy who just tends to back away when they sense a woman pursuing them, and who move closer when they feel the heat is off. It can be so, so subtle and yet incredibly frustrating. It is also a very common pattern that I have seen a gazillion times. <sigh>

I know when you're caught up in all this euphoria of wanting to be with him that the hardest thing in the world will be to leave him alone. But it could very well be the best thing you can do to give him space. Maybe he wants to pursue you and feels you're not giving him a chance, or he could interpret your chasing after him as being a little too needy. Stop texting for a few days -- really hard to do, I know -- but let him be. Take up knitting or something (LOL), focus on something else when your mind turns to him. He will come around, I can almost guarantee it!

[JenAgain]

Oh girl, If I took up another hobby I would be in BIG trouble!! lol

Amazingly, and out of the blue had an awesome middle of the night conversation with J. I woke up at 2AM to a text from him that said he probably would need to come another night due to some roommate drama that has him out looking for a new house/apartment this morning instead of sleeping (he works mid shift). My brain turned on and I asked him about it which then turned into a 3 hour long conversation about a LOT! I'm pretty sure it's the most words I've gotten out of him ever.. combined, hah.

It did offer me a lot of insight to the person he is though, and it progressed into talking about our situation. He is hesitant partially due to his experience in his previous marriage, and also because he is still looking for "the one" and is afraid the deeper we get into this, the more difficult it will be when it comes to an end. I shared some of your words, and others that I have picked up along my posts and learning here and went to sleep (for an hour until the kids got up) feeling much better.

He doesn't want me to stop "chasing" so to speak, the reason why he doesn't reciprocate is because he views it as respecting my privacy, that my past is my past, and his main concern is about our future. That if I want to volunteer information then that's fine, but he wont pry. I do feel that a persons history is as much a part of them as the present and their future, and told him such. I don't think it will change the fact that he doesn't ask me much, but he did say that I can ask him all I want, hah.

All in all, it was a good conversation. I suppose I should pull all nighters more often and chat with him when he's at his prime.. awake, and at work! Go figure!

[JenAgain]

I haven't posted in a bit.. a lot has been going on. It's been bad.. good.. bad.. back and forth.

I don't know if I have the emotional energy to explain it all right now, but to sum it up. Hubby essentially hit a brick wall, and I couldn't do this to him anymore, so called it off with J for now. After some discussion we decided to take it back to the basics.. no physical affection outside of hugs really. Taking it at hubby's pace. I'm both comfortable and struggling with this.

In the meantime I'm starting to seriously doubt J's sincerity in all this. I don't know that he has the ability to give me that brutal honesty that I need.. and that is an absolute need for me.

There has been a lot of crying, reflection, more crying over the last several days. I'm just not sure what I can emotionally handle at this point.. my heart is heavy in so many ways. It's not all bad, it's just weighing down on me and I'm finding it hard to breathe.

Will post more as I sort through these feelings and make some sense of it all..

[nycindie]

Wow, Jen, I empathize with you. I think your lesson in all of this is to learn patience. Isn't this the second time you've made up your mind that J. wasn't where you want him to be with this and you can't do it anymore? Yes, give J. his space but why write him off?

I don't know how well-structured your life is, but that might help. Somehow you seem to let your mind wander to all possibilities and then find reasons to get upset when everyone isn't all on the same page as you, at the same time.

I see it so clearly because I do this myself. The hardest part then is to not make decisions out of these feeling!

Breathe, slow down, take stock of all the good things. From what your hubby's been posting, he's doing really well. Don't let yourself get impatient with J., as that won't help. Just because you feel the need right now for everything to fall into place the way you believe it should doesn't mean that that is what's best for you right now.

(((HUGS)))

[JenAgain]

You are absolutely 100% correct. Patience is NOT one of my virtues.

I'm not sure J has ever been on the same page. I think a lot of the problem has been the way that this all happened to start and the speed of which it started. I don't know that any of us ever realized the amount of emotional involvement (this is before I realized what poly was, and what it was I really felt I needed). From the very beginning, I've stated that honesty was one of those needs for me, for all of us, so we can keep communicating.

It's hard how to figure out how to back off... it's been painful even. We seem to have such an amazing connection when we are around each other, not just me but when he's around hubby too... backing off seems to make the communication worse. That's when things are the hardest, when he's not around.

He's such a complex individual. He has all of these layers. He keeps a guard up it seems, from what I don't know, I feel like he lets it down when he's around and it makes me want him around all of the time, not the other way around. He's also very intelligent. He knows everything he does, which is another reason I get frustrated. I'm a pretty easy person to deal with as long as you are straight forward with me.... I don't get how that is hard to understand. I suspect that my expectations are too high. Again, the patience thing, it's hard for me.

I wont ever completely write him off.. he's our friend first and foremost. He may or may not be right for the kind of relationship I'm seeking.. but as long as he wants to be part of our family, he will be. We all love him, kids included.

I'm really trying to take everything with a grain of salt right now. I've been especially proud of hubby and the progress he's been making. I feel like I have him back, and he's my priority.

[SNeacail]

What I see is that you have thought long and hard about what you want, but your husband is 100 paces behind you and J is 300 paces behind. The whole concept is new to everyone and I'll bet J is just as confused about how to act and trying to figure out if he is capable of dealing with the situation you desire as everyone else. Give it time and in the meantime just be for a while.

For me, just coming to the realization that loving someone else doesn't mean I don't love my husband any less and vice versa was a big step. I think the sex can complicate and confuse matters. What do you really want, another sex partner or J in your life and part of your family, even if there is no sex?

[JenAgain]

Oh no, I'd much rather have J in our life and family. When I said said I was both comfortable and struggling with going back to the basics, I was referring to the kissing and snuggling. I really enjoyed those times, even if there was nothing else involved. I felt like that was good bonding time for us because of the closeness and when we did a lot of our talking and joking. But yes, more than anything I prefer him to be a part of our family.... and for everybody to be comfortable.

J doesn't strike me as the kind of person who gets confused. Like I said, I have not known him to ever not know exactly what he is doing and why at any one point. I think his biggest thing is not wanting to intrude on mine and hubby's relationship.. he doesn't want to cause any problems and as soon as things go through a tough point, he backs off into the woodwork. It's all part of the learning process though... i know it will be okay in the end, one way or another. I may not get what I see in my head and feel in my heart..... and that's okay.. it's just exhausting going through the ups and downs and back and forths. and yes. I'm impatient :P

[SNeacail]

Oh no, I'd much rather have J in our life and family

Remind yourself of that.


J doesn't strike me as the kind of person who gets confused.

We all get confused and scared, especially since we really haven't been taught how to handle poly situations whereas we get lessons, good, bad or otherwise on a mono lifestyle every time we turn on the TV. Just saying, it's new and because he cares for you both, he may not quite know how to tread yet.

[JenAgain]

Stood up.. again.

[Beodude123]

I don't know if I'm that many paces behind... I've done a lot of catching up in the last week. Hopefully it'll stay that way. I'm pretty sure it will though.

[JenAgain]

hmm, well, so much and so little has happened in the last week.

I'm not sure what happened with J. Ended up asking him about a few things i felt like he was being dishonest about.. after he stood me up, apparently because he took a sleeping aid and some pain meds and slept through, again. Wasn't being accusatory, just asking because I wanted to know the truth, no hard feelings, no judgments. Didn't hear from him all night. In the morning got a text that said he was "formulating" his response. Whatever that means.

Then nothing for the next couple of days, and I didn't message him either after a couple of unanswered ones, trying to give him space. I get a "good night" text at 2AM Sunday. Still no response to my inquiry.

Noticed some lovey gooey facebook comments on his "she's not really my girlfriend" page, again.. the honesty thing.. but I'm taking his silence as a hint, and I respect that. I just wish he had the respect in return to be truthful and up front with me. I'm raising the white flag, I hope with space that our friendship will remain in tact as I value the connection that we had, as well as his friendship with my hubby. Hubby and I both agree that J isn't what we are looking for, and it's taking some time, but I'm okay with that. I do miss him, and our chats, and again, I'm hoping with time that will come back.

A lot of it was mistakes on our part, just due to adjusting and learning how this poly thing works. So we learn from our mistakes and move on at a slower pace.

In the meantime, I have made another acquaintance that I have a growing interest in, and he seems to have an interest in me as well. We'll call him W. Hubby doesn't really approve because W has an egotistical (he calls it self confident) air about him. I find that I somewhat enjoy that he's honest about himself and his actions, and he's very predictable. I've asked hubby if I can pursue an platonic friendship with him, spend a little time with him and see how it goes. He might just grow on hubby too.

Another problem that lies with him, is that he also works with hubby. Not directly at the moment, but he will eventually be working side by side with him again. Hubby is nervous about sharing his circle of friends because he thinks that I'm looking at them all differently, and while I'm not using his circle of friends for that, I do enjoy their company, but I'm also keeping an open mind these days, in my eyes everybody has potential, male or female, his friends or not. I'm not pushing my emotions/feelings/attractions down anymore, instead I'm exploring them, and love that I can discuss them with hubby. Unfortunately, my access to single people is somewhat limited. Hubby doesn't want me using dating sites, and I'm fine with that, but the large majority of people that I come across on my own are married. Not that that in itself is a problem, but it's not like monogamous/nonmonogamous status is discussed among us.

The other thing is that for the most part I feel hubby is a good judge of character, and if he likes somebody, I feel that they are safe. His friends are good people and It matters to me that he trusts them and cares about them too. I would like that whoever I end up having relationships with also get along well with my hubby and vice versa.. that's important to me.

So we continue on with this journey.. open minds, open hearts. Learning from our mistakes and knowing that more will be made, and hope that we can learn from them too. I don't consider what happened with J a failure, but an experience from which I have no regrets.

[nycindie]

Oh Jen, I can relate to you so much - how you want things to fall into place, you want to know where you stand, you need reassurance. I'm a control freak, too, and J. seems very much like my guy, Shorty, in some ways. He needs his space, for many reasons, and it has been a good lesson for me to back off and allow him that. I have a sense that you are coming across a bit too needy for J. Maybe he would like it if you wait and let him take the initiative instead of always responding to prompts from you. Give him some room. Let go the reins of control a little. I think the discomfort of not knowing how things will go and not steering everything the way you want it to be would be good for you. I have a feeling that you will encounter this kind of pushback-pullaway dynamic a lot until you get more comfortable with letting whatever is, just be.

Have you ever tried meditation?

[JenAgain]

I guess I'm a control freak? I'm definitely heavy on the Type A, slightly OCD side. It's gotten worse as I've gotten older. At the same time I'm pretty laid back as far as friendships go. It's hard to offend me, and I'm very open with people. For me, the reason why I need that honesty, is because that's how I deal with my own insecurities. If I know upfront that he is dating somebody, or it's getting serious.. it's how I prepare for the end of what we have/had. He made it clear from the beginning that he was still looking for his person, and when he found her, what we had would have to end.

The girl in question (and I say girl, because she's 18, 8 years younger than him and still in HS even). I asked him about her before and he insisted that they were just friends, so I carried on. After seeing more of their interactions, she obviously was head over heels for him, and more and more he was reciprocating that when he didn't think I could see. When I asked him about it, he insisted it was nothing...but she seems to think it's more than that. That's something I'm not sure I can be a part of. If he wants to be unfaithful to her behind her back, then that's his deal, but I can't knowingly do that to her regardless of how I feel about him. I mentioned this to him, and asked him what his thoughts were, and that was the question in which I never received a response to.

It's not even so much that I feel like I need to know where I stand, or that I'm feeling controlling that I'm realizing he's not the right person. It's that hubby and I both feel like he has little respect for women in general, and we certainly don't feel respected in what we both asked of him at a minimum, which was honesty and communication. He only seemed to want to tell us what he thought we wanted to hear.

Does that make sense? It doesn't make me value our friendship any less, but as far as anything more than that, I just don't think he's a good fit.

I've tried meditation before, but it's been a while. And by a while I mean probably 10 years. Perhaps I should try it again.

[nycindie]

He only seemed to want to tell us what he thought we wanted to hear.

Ugh, this is a common problem I have found with most men, in general. Even the ones that tout being open and honest can't seem to handle openness and honesty coming from me and they usually pussyfoot around telling me everything, even when I ask. How many times I have heard, "Are you sure you want me to tell you?" Gah! I have a theory that their protective caveman instincts toward women come into play here, as if we're too fragile to hear the truth. It's frustrating!

Ah, well, if he's not the right guy, he's not the right guy.


And yes :o I do think you are a bit of a control freak, but I say that with great affection and a smile, because it takes one to know one. :p Most people don't think that of me because on the outside I'm so easy-going and appear unruffled most of the time, but underneath I am usually worrying about something not being the way it should be or the way I want. I can work myself into a tizzy. My soon-to-be-ex-husband couldn't stand it. I think the underlying dynamic of my always wanting to have a sense of control really harmed our relationship, unfortunately. Finding ways to let go really helps, and for that reason the unpredictable nature of my relationship with Shorty is good for me.

[ImaginaryIllusion]

Gah! I have a theory that their protective caveman instincts toward women come into play here, as if we're too fragile to hear the truth. It's frustrating!

While that's one possibility, there are others...it's not always fragility. It may be avoidance of women's secret weapon...tears.
And then again, there's also something about Hell hath no fury like...what was that again? It could just be a survival instinct...the male equivalent of duck & cover. :)

[SNeacail]

While that's one possibility, there are others...it's not always fragility. It may be avoidance of women's secret weapon...tears.
And then again, there's also something about Hell hath no fury like...what was that again? It could just be a survival instinct...the male equivalent of duck & cover. :)

THIS!
At least this is what my husband tells me when I find out that he has been "placating" me. He wants to avoid the need to "duck & cover" for what he imagines what my reaction might be.

[nycindie]

While that's one possibility, there are others...it's not always fragility. It may be avoidance of women's secret weapon...tears.

Guilty as charged. I became aware a few years ago that I wasn't just someone who cried easily -- I was taught at an early age to cry if I wanted to deflect some heat off me, and to avoid getting into trouble or having an icky conversation. But it's a really difficult habit to break -- although as an actor I am lucky because I can cry on cue and all I have to do is make a cry face at an audition and the tears come. Got a lead in an off-B'way play that way. But in relationships, I have had many conversations with men where I'm stopping to tell them in between my tearful snotful blubbering, "don't worry about this, honey, I even cry at commercials." I try not to scare them away with it, it just comes out... sometimes I can stop it, but... :'(

But why is that always something to avoid? Hmmm...

Edit: Regarding the fury of a woman scorned... haha, yes, for me that's real... and scary. I am not easily angered, it takes a lot, but when I am... watch out.

[Carma]

Hey, Jen I just read through your whole blog and wow -- my situation is SO similar to yours!! Thanks for all you've shared, both you and your hubby. The roller-coaster ride, it's incredible, isn't it? We've gone from great to horrible in a matter of minutes, too. What a swirl. But the depths of love we have been able to reach, it's worth every second, I think. And the things I have learned about myself, too -- amazing.

My bf, Jack, told me years ago (when he was just a friend and I had a ridiculous crush) "I guard my heart." And I think that was the start of me, on a mission! Oh, yeah? I will find a way in! But -- I have learned SO MUCH from him. I've learned so much about balance, things that were lacking in me, or things that were already IN me that I had never acknowleged, things I wanted to strenghten and I could do that by watching him. He is a teacher, in many ways, but sometimes I am sort of making the connections all on my own -- you know? I am also learning things that I would like to work on in my marriage. It's been a lot of work but my husband is benefitting from the challenges too. In fact he is rising up to meet those challenges in ways that impress me to no end. I love reading when you say how much you love your husband -- I feel the same way about mine!

And I too struggle with the guilt. I hate that I am hurting him. I get mad at myself that I can't just be happy with him. He is a perfect husband and I am a spoiled brat! But -- the irony is, he loves it that I am a spoiled brat -- you know, I'm sort of the little monster that he created, anyway! I am sooooo confident that he will never leave me, that his love is unconditional, that whoever I love, he will love, I mean, I guess I just take it for granted sometimes. It is absolute confidence and trust! The scariest thing is when he struggles, gets negative or sketchy, and it sends me almost into shock -- you mean, there ARE conditions??? Wha???

Right now we're all hot on a "Butch Cassidy and the Sundance Kid" kick. Never saw the movie but I saw a few snippets on Youtube and I am hooked on playing those roles for a bit :) So fun, because all 3 in the V are incredibly beautiful and sexy and confident and secure. Great poly role models, from the little I've seen!

Good luck on your journey. Thanks again for sharing!

[JenAgain]

Thank YOU for sharing Carma! I always love to hear success stories, that even with ups and downs it can work out.

Hubby has been having so many internal struggles lately. He doesn't even really know how to tell me what is wrong. (See his thread: http://www.polyamory.com/forum/showthread.php?t=7690)

On my front, J is again, back in the picture. After 4 days of silence I got a very deep message from him, I answered back wanting to leave things neutral until we were able to have dinner sometime. Work has been crazy for the guys, so I probably wont get that chance until next week and I hadn't really talked to him since knowing he was busy. He messaged me last night and we had a few pretty in depth texts back and forth. I'm feeling better, but still tentative about it. He did come forward about the things I had asked him.

On the W front, I did talk to him a little deeper about what he thought about the situation, and he wants to keep things platonic due to his relationship with hubby. After some thought, I think that it's best that way as well, I think he will be a much better friend in the long run than anything more.

I'm still feeling pretty drained, and confused, and of course super emotional. I just can't seem to catch a break in any one way. Something is always in the air, and sometimes I think it would be really nice if there could just be a week where everything went smoothly and happily. I instinctively want to point fingers and be angry because things aren't going the way I want them too... but I'm really trying to be patient for the good of everybody involved. It's really, really, really tiring.

[Beodude123]

You didn't even talk about your surprise!? Sheesh...

[JenAgain]

Haha, that's because I posted before I knew about my surprise!

But yeah, I've been having a rough week, and when hubs got to work, J was leaving and hubby told J that I could use his company. So imagine my surprise when there was a knock at the door and there was J wielding chocolate and a smile! I hadn't seen him in a couple of weeks and with everything that had gone on, there was a bit of awkwardness there, but I think with some time that it will relax again. He didn't stay long, but we had a nice little chat and some hugs.

I think the best part was that hubby was happy that J could come be with me when he couldn't, and it made me feel good that he was not anxious about it at all. I think that's a big step in the right direction!

[JenAgain]

Well... good-ish stuff going on I guess?

Hubby and J are going to catch a movie tomorrow, and then coming back here for a BBQ and they will have more dude bro time while I go do my Sunday night skate.

Hubby had written J a letter letting know how he was feeling and that he needed J to communicate with us, and that he knows his actions have affected all of us (much like J's affect both hubby and I, and mine affect hubby and J..so on and so forth). He wants to keep forward in a positive way.

Apparently he had intended on trying to set up a date night for J and I, but J said he didn't feel comfortable with that at the moment. Which, yay, I'm glad he's communicating about that, it's definitely progress, however it does leave me with some mixed and confused feelings.

At this point, I'm not sure where I stand, or what I'm suppose to be doing. Am I suppose to be giving him space? Continuing to be forward? I've been working on giving him space, and as expected I have not received much from him during that time. Of course they have been VERY busy at work, so I'm trying not to read too much into that. I do have a fear that too much damage (not sure if that's the right word) has been done with all of the back and forthing and he's turned off from the whole situation. He says he still wants to be a part of it, but I don't know that we will ever have that intense connection that we had at the beginning of this.

I'm not doing anything either way right now.. just hanging tight and seeing what happens. Letting hubby and J work on their relationship a bit and hoping somewhere along the line I'll fit back into the picture maybe? I think one of the hardest parts for me is that he's in this because he wants to be, but I feel that it's mostly because we asked him to be. Everything with him is always plural "I've missed you guys too", and "how have you guys been?". I don't feel like I am an individual to him, and that he wants to be a part of us, but I don't feel like he wants me, and that's difficult. I should reiterate that I DO want him to be a part of our family regardless, but as far as "my person" I don't know if it will be enough for me. Still seeing where things go... it's not like I'm looking for anybody else or have any other prospects, so what have I got to lose, right?

[Carma]

Happy for you Jen! The surprise -- wow! Beo, you get some serious props for that one, how absolutely sweet of you. I see such love in your lives, it's really awesome.

I can really identify with you. Our trio is on the same page as yours right now. The men getting along and strengthening their friendship is so important and can enrich the whole experience.

Hubby and I watched "Butch Cassidy and the Sundance Kid" -- check it out, you guys, if you haven't seen it/recently. So cool to see those two cowboys and their fabulous friendship. They were secure in themselves, in their friendship, in their love for Eta and hers for them, everyone was in sync. One of the greatest love stories I have ever, ever seen. AND -- it's based on a true story.

[JenAgain]

Well, last night was a really rough night. Hubby texted me while he was at work and said that he was feeling inadequate yesterday. He said he feels some anger since he feels like sex with him wont be enough and he can't make me feel sexy or make me want to have sex at any given time. He tries to do those things all of the time and it frustrates him that he can't do it. He said that he tries to give me everything I could want and I always want something more.

Ouch.

I responded that I didn't think anybody but me could make me feel sexy. No matter who tells me things I don't feel sexy until I do. I'm not in the mood until I am. I don't know what pushes those buttons. One thing that makes me feel sexy is when I derby. I feel sexy and empowered, no matter who is watching or who isn't... I think sexy is my state of mind, not anything anybody can make me feel. I still don't know what gets me in the mood. I just know that when this all started and I was in NRE, I was NRE with J, but I also felt NRE with hubby all over again.

He ended up coming home early. He says he can't concentrate on anything else unless he's really busy. It consumes him every day. He thinks about how he wants to be everything to me and he can't. He thinks that me having special moments with somebody else is going to make what we have less special.

How do I answer that? I said nothing, because I didn't want to say anything I didn't mean out of reaction to his feelings. I just held him and hugged him and told him I loved him and that I wasn't going anywhere. My first thought was to just end it, but can we go back to the way it was? Do I want to? I have never been unhappy, but it wasn't until I experienced the freedom that I realized I had been missing it, that I felt like a better wife, and a better mother.

We both cried... a lot. I'm terrified that I've ruined our marriage. I yearn for the 5 minutes of *happi* we had when this started, where he was accepting of me for who I am, where I was allowed that freedom to explore my feelings and connection, where our deep communication was amazing and relieving, where my libido was through the roof and exciting. I can't be happy if he's not. I promised I would never hurt him, and I have. To see him hurting, and struggling kills me. What I'm doing, it's not fair, but why does it feel so right? I'm filled with guilt, I get angry because he can't see how much I love him and that this doesn't change how I feel about him in any negative way, I have frustration that I'm being held back, but I don't want to push him.

All of that, and there isn't really anything going on right now. Things are in limbo with J. I've been working on some strong platonic friendships with males that make me feel comfortable, and that I've missed..I've always had a lot of male friends until we got married. Other than that, it's all his thoughts and projections about what he thinks could happen.

I don't know what to do.

[Magdlyn]

Oh Jen. *hugs*

What you 2 do depends on your own personalities. This is just so common with couples who discover poly. Or when one discovers it and then the other has to play catch up. It just rocks your world so much. It feel natural to you, but alien to him, and there is your disconnect.

As so many have said here, give it time. Both of you can read books on the subject. I just started reading Sex at Dawn, for instance, where the anthropologists talk about how humans were probably "promiscuous," and sharing sex with multiple partners, for the million years of human history. Monogamy is a "new" concept, ie: only 10,000 yrs (since agriculture introduced possessiveness), which is a drop in the bucket in the big picture.

We are meant to be more like bonobos, our close ape cousins. (And humans are apes.) Bonobos share sex amongst the tribe, for tension release, bonding, entertainment, etc, not just for reproduction. Humans are the only other mammals that also view sex this way!

So, anyway, there is a lot of info out there, and the more you 2 learn about non-monogamy, the more you will both be reassured that sex/love/affection with more than one person does not automatically threaten your primary pair bond. Cheating does threaten it, because secrets kill.

[dingedheart]

Hey jen

I think I know how your husband feels and the truth is I had the exact same thoughts and feeling. The truth is he is not enough or you wouldn't be looking elsewhere. He is not the center of your universe anymore ...or whatever spin anyone puts on it. You are the center or only one in his universe so its hard to not want the same time and focus.

It may not be all that comforting to know your not leaving....each persons different. For me it wasn't comforting at all it made things more confusing I came to think of it as being romantically out sourced. Not many benefits to that....if that's how one feels. I ended up figuring out there ore only two emotions worth talking about. What feels good and what feels bad. Pain or joy. Not going to use the word love...too many meanings

I don't know your story so I'm just putting this out there. Let say this gets sexual and to ease tension you try to demonstrate fairness and set up dates with hubby but because of the nre ... your heart isn't 100% into it.... hubby sense it...he then ends up feeling less special, less loved, and more of the feeling of being replaced at least in the romance department. According to many here this is quite common. And it didn't help me knowing that. My point is this is like running hurdles and this is the first or second hurdle....300 meters more to go .....lots more hurdles.

Here's one other little secret ....the brain is linked to erections....this could have a very chilling /killing effect for hubby. I would wake up in the middle of the night with a hard on from a dream but would not get aroused from wife's advance. I think gender in this situation could play a huge role.

The only way from my point of view is going down the road together. Each person has other partner(s)....fair and balanced. If you want 2 additional partners then don't be surprised that he does to. Center of universe(s) is/are balanced.

People here have developed techniques to cope with the painful situations that seem to always arise....they are a very abundant resource....and very willing to share their experiences and guidance new folks.... I wish you the very best....Good luck.

[Carma]

Hey, dinged! Good to see you, hope you're doing ok.

Jen, it's all going to be ok. Beo has a genuine love for you, and you for him. This is a roller coaster ride, but I think you two are going hang on and make it, I really do.

I said earlier today on another thread that polyamory is not for wimps (or something like that!) and I really believe that's true. There are love warriors here! And you two are strong of heart. ;) (Even dinged hearts stick it out on here :rolleyes: )

[JenAgain]

Thanks all.. things seem to be a little smoother today so far. J is coming for dinner, so I guess we'll see how hubby is when he gets home tonight.

Magdlyn, I have read Sex at Dawn, and The Ethical Slut, and I just started Opening Up. Hubby read the first 55 pages of Sex at Dawn, and then switched to The Ethical Slut because I thought it was a bit more relevant, and I could summarize Sex At Dawn for him. He will probably go back and read it, but it's kind of a tough read so I thought the Ethical Slut was a bit more pertinent for now and he would get through it quicker. I found them to be great at explaining things to me, but I'm not the one that needs it the most.. though it did get me thinking about some things and changing what I think I really want out of this.

Dinged, I'm not opposed to him finding additional partners, but at this point, that isn't something that he wants or feels comfortable with at this point. A lot of it is his lack of self confidence, which is probably what makes poly so hard to begin with (his words, not mine).

I don't know that I would say he's not the center of my universe. He's the most important to me, the man I want to be with for the rest of my life. Is it enough? No, I guess not as much as that pains me to say it.. I do feel more complete with Poly. As I said, I was never unhappy before, but I do feel like something that was missing.. is there now.. or was for a while.

Carma, one way or another we will. I don't know in what way we will make it, but we will. I know that much.. because he's not getting rid of me, no way. Or I'll kick him in the shin.

[Beodude123]

It's going to sound bad saying it, but the damage is done, and we can't go back to the way it was.... So we just have to move forward. I think the main reason that things were good in the beginning, is because things didn't seem as complicated, I was enjoying the NRE, and the sex was good. That was covering up a lot of my hurt. It was still there, I just think I was brushing it aside. Now it's punching me in the face.

[JenAgain]

Why does it have to be complicated?

[nycindie]

I promised I would never hurt him, and I have. To see him hurting, and struggling kills me.

You know in your heart of hearts that you did not behave in a way that was meant to hurt him.

You didn't hurt your husband. He is feeling hurt. Big difference.

We are all responsible for our own feelings. He could have any number of emotional responses to you and what's been happening. His feeling hurt is more directly related to how he was programmed at an early age to handle certain types of stressors. You have seen the rollercoaster ride of feelings he's been experiencing -- are you going to give him props for the happy pleasant ones but take the blame for the shitty ones? They are his feelings and he owns them, chooses them, deals with them or keeps them around. You did not cause them. You are just being you and as loving as you can be.

Beodude, I commend you for keeping at it and facing what's going on with you. It seems that your feelings of loss and inadequacy are your own and what needs to be dealt with if you want to find happiness.

[AnnabelMore]

Phew! What an oddyssey.

This may be an unpopular opinion, but I think maybe y'all *should* slow things down. Maybe it'd be better to keep things more casual with J, who seems confused about what he wants anyway (Jen, you said at one point that he doesn't seem like the kind of guy who gets confused... well, everyone gets confused, it sounds to me more like he just doesn't know how to show it!), while you and Beo make sure you still have a strong foundation. After all, you won't have much love to give J or anyone else if your heart is completely rent in two because your relationship with Beo has gotten damaged, yeah?

Two months is a very, very short amount of time. If you know for sure that you're committed to your marriage above everything else, then you've got to keep that strong. I truly believe you'll have more love to give if your primary love-relationship (in this case your marriage) is on the strongest footing possible. Maybe couple's counseling with a poly-friendly counselor who will be fair to you both and could help Beo get to the root of his fears?

Also, to Beo -- I would recommend waiting until you're absolutely, positively sure you're in a better place before you consider watching Jen have sex with J or any other man. I don't mean to scare you, but this letter to the Savage Love advice column made a big impression on me: http://www.thestranger.com/seattle/SavageLove?oid=7198946

I wish you guys all the best. It's clear that you're both working so hard. Like I said above, I really think that slowing down would be the best thing when running forward has brought you to such difficult places. It sounds like you may already be doing just that, with what you said about going back to basics.

Jen, I really relate to your fears when it comes to knowing things could end at any moment. You're a strong person to choose to give your love freely despite your fear.

[idealist]

Why does it have to be complicated?

I just read your blog and was surprized to see you are in Louisiana!! What part, if you don't mind my asking!!

I just wanted to give some feedback, based on what I have experienced.

All of the honesty and making sure everything is discussed is very important. And- what can happen is that the discussions themselves begin to create a mood change and can become addictive. What can result is that discussions and analyzing the relatioship(s) can be overdone. Then, there is more talk about the relationship(s) then there is actual relationship(s). In fact, it's crazy to realize there isn't even a relationship there yet because it hasn't been able to develop yet.

There comes a point where discussions can be suspended and it's time to actually live it.

Best of thoughts to all of you!!!
Idealist

[JenAgain]

Cyndie, yeah, you are right, but easier said than done. :) Thank you for all of your responses. You always have such great insight to what's going on and I appreciate that!

Annabel, yes, we have taken a huge step back and gone back to basics. Drew has okay-ed snuggling and kissing. So far that hasn't really happened. J did come over tonight for dinner and we watched a cheesy for TV thriller flick and it was a very comfortable visit. We took turns giving shoulder rubs and head scratches and when he left he shared a couple of quick kisses, but nothing extravagant. I was okay with that and content. We have a lot to work back from on all of our parts. Drew texted me and told me I should give J a big kiss, but I wasn't really comfortable with that, because J told me before he's still trying to sort some things out himself... so I'm letting him take the lead as long as all boundaries that Drew and I have set are maintained. So far, so good.. and even slower, which I think is better.

I have looked into a marriage counselor that I believe will be open to poly, and I intend on giving her a call tomorrow to see if our insurance will cover it and how we can go about getting an appointment. Our marriage itself I feel is very strong, we both are very adamant that we don't want to live our lives without each other. We need help working through how to make this work for both of us with our very different backgrounds and histories.

Idealist, we are in the Shreveport/Bossier City area. I also think you are correct, and exactly what I meant about why does it have to be complicated? I feel like we're beating a dead horse half the time because all of this discussion about something that isn't really even happening. He said he was tired of talking about it every day, so I didn't mention it for a day and a half and that ended in last nights big cry session..

[MrFarFromRight]

Well... good-ish stuff going on I guess? [...] Everything with [J] is always plural "I've missed you guys too", and "how have you guys been?". I don't feel like I am an individual to him, and that he wants to be a part of us, but I don't feel like he wants me, and that's difficult. I should reiterate that I DO want him to be a part of our family regardless, but as far as "my person" I don't know if it will be enough for me. Still seeing where things go... it's not like I'm looking for anybody else or have any other prospects, so what have I got to lose, right?Hey Jen! (first a hug;)) Don't you know when you're lucky?! J is Beo's friend and he knows that Beo is going through a hard time. Would you rather that he [J] were so strung out on NRE for/with you that he didn't care a jot for Beo's feelings - and didn't include him in his love? Could you really love someone like that? Sounds like both of you [Beo and you] have struck gold with this guy. As always, I'm wishing you

All the best!

[MrFarFromRight]

[continued]I don't feel like I am an individual to him, and that he wants to be a part of us, but I don't feel like he wants me, and that's difficult.I wouldn't worry about him not seeing you as an individual if I were you. Once you and Beo are on firmer ground, once Beo's feeling positive about the whole thing, that'll be the time for him to pay you individual attention.

You've got a husband who - despite his painful jealousy - sends a friend (his "rival") around to cheer you up when you're feeling blue. (And makes sure that the friend has chocolate on him before he sends him off!) And you've got a friend who doesn't want to hurt his friend - your husband - for the sake of some hot sex.Well... good-ish stuff going on I guess?You guess right, Lady!

[Carma]

MrFarFromRight,

I do believe you are Mr Quite Close To Right, in your observations!!! They have a great love affair going on, these three. I see it, too :cool:

[Beodude123]

Why does it have to be complicated?


How is it not complicated? We all started out happy. I start to pull back, and you stop showering me with love and sex. This causes me to pull back more, and feels like there is a disconnect between us. J pulls back because he isn't comfortable, which makes you frustrated. When I see you frustrated, it makes me mad, since poly doesn't seem worth it to me at that point, since the super love and sex is gone, and you aren't happy. Aaaaand then we cycle on down the bowl.

Every couple of hours, I can spin a wheel of emotion, and whatever it lands on, is how I feel until I spin again. For me, that's about as complicated as it gets, seeing as to how I never had a problem before with consistency.

[JenAgain]

I've already told you this, but I've never stopped showering you with love. The sex has slowed down (but still far more frequent than it was before this all started), but it's hard to stay turned on when you are a mix of emotions and I never know how you are feeling. Love and sex are not synonymous.

[idealist]

. I also think you are correct, and exactly what I meant about why does it have to be complicated? I feel like we're beating a dead horse half the time because all of this discussion about something that isn't really even happening. He said he was tired of talking about it every day, so I didn't mention it for a day and a half and that ended in last nights big cry session..

I was thinking more like cutting back to one conversation per week for at least 3 months and just living the rest of the time. But, I have a feeling that it will be like going cold turkey after a major alcohol or drug addiction. Virtually impossible at this point. These discussions and the emotional highs and lows realated to them have become like a drug for you guys. Just as with an addiction, you have lost your ability to stop at this point. I really feel for you guys...... it has to be frustrating and a bit scary.....how do you get off this roller coaster!?!?!? Not to mention how much time and energy is getting used up. You have a lot of support here.....I hope you guys can get it sorted out!!!

Sending best wishes and good thoughts your way!!!

[MrFarFromRight]

You have a lot of support hereI'll second that.I hope you guys can get it sorted out!!!I'll second that.Sending best wishes and good thoughts your way!!!That makes 3 seconds.

[JenAgain]

Well, we had our break! It was pretty nice I guess. We had a small set back last Tuesday where we discussed it for a minute. Then we had our first counseling session as a couple on Friday. It's a counselor that I see regularly that also does marriage counseling so she was more than happy to see him as well.

She did say that we have a great foundation for our relationship. We have a lot of love, and great communication. Other than disagreeing on the poly front, we don't have any problems. She was very neutral on the subject, and seemed supportive of both of us.. validated each of our feelings. I don't think it gave us much progress off the bat, but we go back on Thursday as she wants to get a little deeper in to hubby's history. It was nice to be able to get some direction to where his feelings were coming from.

Of course after a nice day, we had a misunderstanding that evening. We had had some drinks and ended up having a HUGE fight. A fight like we have never been in before. It both terrified, and devastated me. I have never seen hubby get that angry before, it was a side of him I hope I never see again, and it broke my heart that I caused it. The misunderstanding only started his anger, but he's angry because I am poly. He thinks I want to fuck every guy that I talk to, and that if I say that I love them, that means I want to screw them. I tell my friends I love them all the time, male or female, I'm a lovey person. I keep replaying a key part in my head and it makes me cry every time. After everything that he says bothers him, I'm afraid to look at my phone texts because he thinks I'm not giving him enough attention, I'm afraid to have facebook conversations, because he might think I'm talking to another guy, I'm afraid to talk to any male friends because I automatically must want to have sex with them, I'm afraid to ask to go anywhere because I don't want him to think I'm making him babysit while I'm partying. I was crying uncontrollably at one point and couldn't catch my breath and he came over and calmed me down and apologized until eventually I fell asleep.

The next day I had my first (on the roster) derby bout, and I just couldn't get in the mood. I was feeling down and depressed about the fight the previous night. He apologized and I calmly suggested maybe we shouldn't drink anymore. He seems to dwell on things more when he drinks. I don't drink very often, but I can't ask him to stop and not stop myself. After I got out on the rink I was feeling better and by the time we were done I was feeling pretty much back to normal.

Sunday we had a nice day, had a BBQ with a friend, had 3 of Drew's coworkers (including J) come over and watch the sleeping kids while we went on a skate date. Which brings up another issue... J was suppose to be in out of town (3 hours away) visiting family until the 23rd, and yet here he was at Drew's coworkers house (who is also our neighbor). At the same time, on Facebook, I see pics of him and his "GF" half way across the country, how much she loves him and that she's moving here after she graduates high school. So, I'm voluntarily stepping away. He hasn't told me any of this, but it's right out there on FB, so I don't know why he consistently lies about where he is going? It's not that I even really care. When I ask him where he's going on leave, I'm just making conversation. I really hope that she is who makes him happy, but I just don't understand why he can't just TELL me that. I still want to be friends but I'll let my hubby do the inviting over when we're all here, I'm not going to invite him over during the week unless he asks about it, and then I will keep it platonic as long as I know that they are still "together". Me putting any more effort into it on my part is too hard on me, because I DO have strong feelings for him.

Maybe sometime in the future if it doesn't work out with his GF, maybe we can try again if somebody else hasn't come along (if we can even come to an arrangement that works for hubby and I), but for now, keeping things platonic. I still really want him to be part of our family, the kids love him and he's a good friend, but I'm more and more certain now that as for as a romantic relationship with him at this point, it's just not going to work for me.

I told hubby I would probably dive into my friendships a bit harder for a while to help me keep my mind occupied and off of J, but that if somewhere along the line that I have any interest other than friends he will be the first to know. I don't want him to think that all of my friends are people I want to have a romantic relationship with.

Hubby and I discussed this today. I tried something new. I set the timer for 10 minutes, and I led the conversation, told him what I was thinking. Then set it for another 10 minutes and let hubby lead the conversation. Neither one of us needed the full 10 minutes and when it was over we hugged and kissed and continued on with the day.

He says he does better when he thinks of poly he just pushes the whole thought out of his head. I don't really see what's wrong with that. He doesn't need to think about it 24 hours a day. If we can keep it at 10 minutes each, once a week to discuss any changes that we might feel we need and reflect on the past weeks thoughts/feelings, why does it need to come up any more than that at this point? I just don't know what to do in the event of an "emergency" like the misunderstanding that happened on Friday. If he would have said something at the beginning, then it would have gotten straightened out before could get angry about it.

So that's been the update for the last week and a half. I'm hoping that it continues in a positive direction. We've had some setbacks.. some big, some small.. but I still think it's progress. I think it might improve now that there is no other person at the moment.

[MrFarFromRight]

Wow! Heavy stuff going on! I'm glad that the fight with Drew calmed down and that he apologised, but it indicated that there's something serious there. It's up to him if he wants to work on it.

Getting drunk (or stoned) often works to let the inhibitions crumble and the truth comes out. When we're sober, we can usually pretty much control what we do and say. Some people even control what they think that they believe... or what they think that they feel. That might mean what we believe others want us to say or how they expect us to act. When we're drunk (or stoned) it's harder to make sure those little "unacceptable, unreasonable" things stay hidden.

So Drew might be "trying to be understanding" and hiding from you (and himself?) just how angry:mad::mad::mad: he really is deep down about this poly thing.

In my opinion, it's not enough just to try and stay sober, because the getting drunk does tell you both a truth: that there's real anger there. It's that that you, Jen, have to realise and work with... and Drew (I hope) will want to work on getting rid of his anger - not just hiding it successfully, so that both of you can pretend that it's not there. (In that case, expect another explosion sometime.)

If it's any help, I've (personally) found that getting stoned is better than getting drunk at uncorking the bottle and then also giving you insight and willingness to change. I was once on not-speaking-to-you terms with a neighbour for a year and a half. (And this was in a tiny neighbourhood of maybe a dozen people.) This also started as a misunderstanding and a bout of jealousy (on his part). The fact that I didn't get stoned often is illustrated by the fact that I didn't in all that time. But when I did... it hit me hard! And when I did, I thought: "How ridiculous we're both being!" The next time I saw him (and I wasn't stoned then), I asked him for a hug.

And you should have seen the mixture of relief and joy on his face!

[Legal warning: Illegal drugs are illegal for a good reason - they are dangerous! Please don't fuck wit' drugs. The former 2 paragraphs should not be construed under any circumstances as the author's wish to condone drug use.]

[Carma]

Love and sex are not synonymous.

We are having some issues with this as well. Another thing -- sex can be "making love" or "fucking" or some blend of the two -- ? :confused:

For us, poly and drinking are not a good mix. We've found that out, too. But -- we do still play with that fire. :o

Sounds like you two have some of the same codependency issues we have been struggling with. I hope the counselor will help -- ours was invaluable. I still have a lot of confusion about what is "healthy" and what is codependent in a marriage. We have created some deep grooves in our relational patterns and it's not always easy to reconsider some of them, let alone trying to change them.

Poly was so freeing for me because it is outside of the conventional restraints and expectations of marriage. Yet Sundance was very comfortable within those conventions, and now I've gone and rocked the boat.... I'm still not so sure we're not going to capsize at any given moment. Especially when his anger flares up. It's scary and sometimes (USUALLY) it catches me off guard. I try and detach when I can, from feeling responsible for his outbursts of anger -- I mean, I don't explode like he does, so I don't understand. As for me, I get angry but I usually try to keep my cool until I can speak rationally. I mean, I really work at this -- he doesn't always. To me, it's just not ok to take my anger out on someone else. But isn't it ok for him to EXPRESS his anger? Sure -- I just can't be overly sensitive, maybe? I mean, he isn't physically violent, ever. But he does say hurtful things. He always apologizes for that later. And it goes back to that cycle, where I know I am asking too much of him, to accept something that is just not acceptable to him -- at least not all the time. I can't always predict when one of those times he ISN'T acceptable of it, will be... :(

So here we are on this roller coaster ride (I prefer that to MERRY-GO-ROUND, but sometimes that feels like a better analogy :( ) (It's not an especially happy day in poly world, for me today.)

[Beodude123]

He thinks I want to fuck every guy that I talk to, and that if I say that I love them, that means I want to screw them.


While I know that the things I said were ridiculous, and I really don't think you want to screw everybody you see, the feelings behind that statement were genuine. Hurt, anger, jealousy.... I've been feeling very hurt lately... It hurts that she wants more than me. That I can't give enough love, enough sex, enough anything for her to be happy. It just absolutely kills me, since I am happy with everything I get from Jen.

Now it's like I'm taking my anger out on her a bit. The fight over the weekend, and last night a bit too. I had a hand wringing thing again last night, and couldn't go to sleep last night. I sat in bed for about an hour and a half before I said screw it, and came out to the living room. Jen was asleep, but she was trying to comfort me if I was laying down (I was in and out of bed a few times). I didn't want to have any of it, and kept scooting over. Her touch wasn't comforting at all, which just made the wringing worse. I finally took some Tylenol PM so I could fall asleep.

She finally woke up, and asked if I was angry at her... I told her no, so that way we could go to sleep. I'm not angry at her... I don't know. I'm just not sure what to feel sometimes, and what my feelings are focused on.







Last week was a nice reprieve though. It was nice not having wringing episodes every day, and having something poly related filling my thoughts all the time. I didn't like just pushing the thought out of my mind every time the word poly came up, since it's just ignoring the issue, but like I said it was nice.

Jen thinks that if nothing poly related is going on, that it'll be easier on me. While this is sort of true, it's just the concept of poly that I have the problem with, so it's always going on, as far as my thought patterns go.

[nycindie]

Beodude, Jen loves you. She loves you. She loves you. Don't forget that.

It hurts that she wants more than me. That I can't give enough love, enough sex, enough anything for her to be happy. It just absolutely kills me, since I am happy with everything I get from Jen.

I really feel for you, I do.

Okay, so this might be hard to explain, but you are hurting yourself; she is not hurting you. For some reason you have interpreted Jen's ability to love more than one person as meaning that there is some deficiency or inadequacy in you. NOT TRUE. It is not about being enough or not enough for her. Try to get that in your head. You seem to think about your relationship as something where the two of you are supposed to fulfill each other's needs, rather than a loving partnership in which you experience life together.

I know she has said that when she realized she could have feelings for someone outside of your relationship that she felt something had been missing til then. That does not mean that the things that were missing were about you at all. I suspect the thing that was missing was simply acknowledgment that it was possible. It's possible for you too. Aren't there numerous people in your life that you feel love for? Why does Jen's desire to expand that love into something sexual, with the right person, threaten you so much? I'm not asking that glibly, but saying that to you as something to ask yourself and examine closely.

This insecurity and feeling inadequate is something that is there in you all the time, and has been triggered by this new chapter in your marriage. But it is yours to look at and decipher - with compassion for yourself. I think every time you tell yourself you are not enough for Jen, you need to step back from it and look at where in you that statement comes from. What other times in your life were you feeling "not enough?" It might have started in early childhood, and is a familiar feeling, but that doesn't mean it's valid or true. You are enough. This I know, even without knowing the two of you personally. You are enough. And Jen loves you.

[JenAgain]

I know she has said that when she realized she could have feelings for someone outside of your relationship that she felt something had been missing til then. That does not mean that the things that were missing were about you at all. I suspect the thing that was missing was simply acknowledgment that it was possible. It's possible for you too. Aren't there numerous people in your life that you feel love for? Why does Jen's desire to expand that love into something sexual, with the right person, threaten you so much? I'm not asking that glibly, but saying that to you as something to ask yourself and examine closely.


THIS.

I don't know how to explain that it is NOT about not having enough. I know that you give me all of the love that I could possibly want from YOU. I know that if I ever wanted more sex for the sake of the act, YOU would give it to me. I KNOW that you spoil me rotten and I DON'T take that for granted. What makes you think I am unhappy with anything you give me?? I have NEVER EVER said anything like that.

It's not the sex, it's not the love... it's the sexual and emotional freedom.

Using J as an example, how I feel about him.. when it comes down to sex. I wanted that connection with him. If I said, "man, I really feel emotionally and physically drawn to J, so I'm going to go have sex with my hubby and that will fill my need".. that would sound ridiculous...and vice versa. J could not fill my needs from you.

I am exhausted. I feel like I speak a foreign language to everybody in this house. The kids don't listen to me the majority of the time. Hubby listens but doesn't understand. Everybody is whining, crying, hanging on me, upset about something. I am emotionally drained. I'm feeling weighed down by guilt and carrying the blame for something that I don't feel i can help. I feel like all of the fingers are pointed at me for being the horrible person that always wants more and can never be satisfied by what she has. I feel like I'm expected to be perfect and I know that I will never achieve that.

Sometimes I just want to give up. Crawl in bed and stay there for as long as possible, so I don't have to be poly, so I don't have to be mono, so I don't have to keep repeating myself over and over when nobody listens. So I can't hurt anybody, or be hurt. I don't want to argue over who is wrong or who is right, or who's fault it is. I just want to sleep, and sleep. I'm tired.

[MrFarFromRight]

Beodude, Jen loves you. She loves you. She loves you. Don't forget that.That's right, Man - and you know it!This insecurity and feeling inadequate is something that is there in you all the time, and has been triggered by this new chapter in your marriage. But it is yours to look at and decipher - with compassion for yourself. I think every time you tell yourself you are not enough for Jen, you need to step back from it and look at where in you that statement comes from. What other times in your life were you feeling "not enough?" It might have started in early childhood, and is a familiar feeling, but that doesn't mean it's valid or true. You are enough. This I know, even without knowing the two of you personally. You are enough. And Jen loves you.This is something I brought up with you before, when I asked you if you loved yourself.

Listen: My father was always comparing me to my oh-so-much-more-responsible brother (who was 8 years older than me and had already left home by then... to another country!): "When Frisky-Tail [not his real name, Folks] was your age, I could have depended on him to (yadda yadda yadda). But you: I don't know!...[what I ever did to deserve a loser son like you.]" My eldest sister never tired of telling me that I broke everything I touched. I had an inferiority complex like nobody's business!... And I never really believed that anybody could love me. Because I didn't love myself.

[I love myself plenty now, but still nobody else loves me!:(:(:(]

I'm not a huge fan of professional counselling, but I think that you have things that you need to work out. Some of it - I suspect - has absolutely nothing to do with Jen. And maybe a professional (or at least somebody with experience) could help. Maybe you should think about counselling for yourself - as well as the marriage counselling with Jen.

If you even suspect that there's any hint of "Hey, Dude: you're really screwed up! You need professional help!" then you have no idea where I'm coming from (or what I've come through)!

I've read in the past about your pain and your doubts. Today I've read about your anger. You know that song?:

When things go wrong,
So wrong with you...
It hurts me too.

I have come to feel a certain affection for you and Jen through your posts and your attempts to reach a happy lifestyle / lovestyle. I want you both to be happy.

Love yourself at least enough to head for that. Please!

[nycindie]

I just want to sleep, and sleep. I'm tired.

Maybe you do need some rest! Go have a massage and take a "mental health" day for yourself! At the very least, candle-lit bubblebaths often work wonders!

[LovingRadiance]

I am exhausted. I feel like I speak a foreign language to everybody in this house. The kids don't listen to me the majority of the time. Hubby listens but doesn't understand. Everybody is whining, crying, hanging on me, upset about something. I am emotionally drained. I'm feeling weighed down by guilt and carrying the blame for something that I don't feel i can help. I feel like all of the fingers are pointed at me for being the horrible person that always wants more and can never be satisfied by what she has. I feel like I'm expected to be perfect and I know that I will never achieve that.

Sometimes I just want to give up. Crawl in bed and stay there for as long as possible, so I don't have to be poly, so I don't have to be mono, so I don't have to keep repeating myself over and over when nobody listens. So I can't hurt anybody, or be hurt. I don't want to argue over who is wrong or who is right, or who's fault it is. I just want to sleep, and sleep. I'm tired.
I haven't caught up on the whole thread. I just needed to say:
I can so understand this feeling. I'm sorry that you are having it. Hugs.

[JenAgain]

Thank you, I have gotten more sleep and feel a little better.

It's been weird around here for me. Quiet, but not. No text messages, no calls, nobody over for dinner. Kids are still being their typical noisy selves though. I'm pretty sure they have split personalities. One for me, one for everyone else.

Thursday we had another counseling session. Hubby discussed his anger. He seems less angry, but there has also been less poly discussion. Counselor suggested I back of from poly (which I feel I have been), while hubs works out his anger issues, and that hubs backs off from alcohol, which seems to make the anger issues worse.

Friday, our friend (and we've established over and over that he is JUST a friend), came over (with hubby's permission). He got here about 10 minutes before hubs got home from work, and hubby came in already angry. He did relax after a while, but I don't know why he came in already pissed off.

Yesterday our derby team had a crawfish boil fundraiser. It went from 1pm to 2am. I wanted to stay the whole thing but was afraid to ask, so instead I asked if he wanted me to work the early half or the late half. He said early. He came down with the kids for a bit, and while he was there I asked if he would mind if I came home and helped put the kids to bed and came back. He seemed really irritated that I asked. He said "I'd like to spend time with you this weekend". Which kind of frustrated me. I like to spend time with him too, but it's not like we have fundraisers every weekend, and I'm only limited to do weekend events since he works swing shift and is gone every night. He sent me a message later and said I could stay later if I wanted, but I already felt guilty about it, so I just stayed a little bit later and left at 7 instead of 6. I hate that I have fear and guilt about asking for anything anymore. I'm always afraid I'm crossing the line.

Otherwise things have been pretty good. Hubs and I went skating last Sunday together for a while and that was really nice. He even took a long break from work to come to my practice Monday and skated while we practiced. He wants his own skates so he doesn't have to use the crappy rink skates, so that makes me excited that he's enjoying something that I do. Especially a physical activity! Last night we watched a movie, and he brushed my hair, which makes me all warm and tingly inside. I LOVE getting my hair brushed! Even with all of the ups and downs, I love my hubby more than ever.

On the J front. I said (and am sticking by my guns), that I'm backing off while he figures out whatever he's doing with his girlfriend. I totally don't understand that situation, but if it makes him happy, then that's what matters. But it doesn't change the fact that I've been missing him terribly. Especially since it's been so quiet around here.. I keep trying to stay busy so I don't think about him much. Every now and then I look at her pictures of them together to remind myself why I'm doing this. It took a few times looking at them to not make my stomach go in knots, but I'm good now. Now I smile and think to myself that as weird as I think it is, she is the one he wants, and that I always knew there would be someone eventually. I'm content with that, but it doesn't change my feelings about him.

So yeah..that's this weeks update. :) I'm really hoping we start making some more progress. I know if it's not getting worse, it's progress, but I'm feeling really in limbo lately. Not really sure what's okay and what's not... when I should talk, and when I should keep my mouth shut. I long for certainty....and acceptance...and I fear neither will ever come.

[MrFarFromRight]

Jen, I want to reply to more of your last post, but I've got 7 more minutes on-line time before they lock the doors. But I couldn't resist this:Last night we watched a movie, and he brushed my hair, which makes me all warm and tingly inside. I LOVE getting my hair brushed!I used to live in a street that was completely squatted, back in the late 70s, early 80s. LOTS of young, alternative people. Getting my long hair brushed by someone else (or brushing somebody else' hair) was a common experience. Like tribes of monkeys grooming each other. I really miss that! And YEAH! It's tingly!:):):)

[JenAgain]

I feel like things are continuing to get worse instead of better. I don't even think it's about poly anymore. I think poly was just the catalyst.

We had another big fight this weekend. Nothing poly related has gone on in about a month. The last time I saw J was when hubs sent him over after work. I've missed him, and I did say that I missed him, but I hadn't seen him and haven't been texting with him.

Friday was chatting with one of our friends, D, who also works with hubby and J, and lives on the street behind us. He was saying he didn't want to cook, so I asked hubby if we could invite him over for dinner, he said yes, so I did. D said that J was over, so I asked hubby if it was okay if he came too.. he said yes, so I told D that was fine.

They came over, ate, they all (Hubby, D and J) helped me highlight my hair by pulling it through the holes in the cap. Hubby got up and left at one point and was acting weird. I could tell he was uncomfortable, but didn't know why. Maybe because of J, but since D was there, we were all just being our usual selves.

AFter they left I asked him why he was uncomfortable and he said he didn't know, he didn't know how to act. I said that it was nice having the company over. Which led to what ended up being what the argument was over.

The guys had been talking about going out, and I asked hubs if he wanted to go out with them, and he said no, he just wanted to stay home and play video games. Okay. I said it would be nice if I could go out with my friends every now and then too. That I'm home every night pretty much by myself, and on the weekends we always do the same thing, not much. We usually do our own thing in the same room, or sometimes different rooms. I'll craft or sew, and he'll play games. Sometimes we watch a movie, or do whatever on our respective computers. Which is fine, it's what we've always done, and I'm comfortable with that. But sometimes it would also be nice to get out and socialize with friends... enjoy life.. maybe run into some stars (lots of big ones in our area lately, ha).

He said well the weekends are when he gets to spend time with me. Well, what the heck. I already cut back on work so I wouldn't have to run so many errands during the week so I could spend more time at home. I stay up most nights and wait for him to get off work so we can see each other for a bit. He said that during the week it isn't the same.

So, what does that all mean? Am I suppose to stay at home 24/7 and not have friends over, or get to go out? I can understand having a fear of poly, but I have never done anything that would cause me not to be trustworthy. Friends that would come over during the week are typically male, that are also his friends, because most of my female friends are married and spending time with their husbands who don't work swing shift. He's not comfortable with that, but at the same time when he's home on the weekend evenings that's HIS time so I cant ever go out then either? I'm not talking about EVERY weekend, or EVERY night, just occasionally. I'd like to be able to go out with my derby girls, or even maybe go out with the guys that are our FRIENDS if they don't mind me tagging along. Is that so much to ask? Am I wrong for wanting to have some socialization now that I actually know people?

He does give me "free time" during the day when the kids are awake. To be able to run errands kid free, or go skate or something. Which is nice, and do appreciate that. But I'm still alone. Like today, I skated 9 miles, went to starbucks and had a frapp by myself, went to a couple of stores to get some random stuff we needed. It was nice to get out, but it's still lonely.

It's not like I don't like hanging out with hubs either. I do, but sometimes I need a change of pace, get out and have some fun. He might find video games relaxing and fun, and I like watching him play, but that's not what does it for me.

I feel like everything is getting blamed on Poly, but after this weekend, I think there is something else that needs working on. I will have to bring it up to our counselor this week. :(

[Magdlyn]

Of course you should be able to go out with friends! That's even a question on okc, do you need me time, or time w friends away from your lover? I think it's quite healthy. And it makes you more interesting... you can share what you did with your h later. Expand your horizons!

Definitely should be examined in your dynamic. It's a shame it has to be a fight, and not a loving conversation about your need for more stimulation from others.

[Carma]

Sounds to me like some co-dependency issues coming up, big time. We've had them, too. It's ironic that being someone's "everything" used to seem so appealing to me, and now it seems overwhelming! We are struggling with the balance between intimacy and SPACE, in our marriage. Sometimes I feel very despairing, fearing that we are never going to get it right :( But then we find ourselves doing ok. It's weird.
And trying to work poly around all the co-dependency stuff is EXTRA hard :confused:
Hang in there. I'm feeling for you.

[JenAgain]

Still hanging in there.. still having ups and downs.

We have been going to our counselor weekly. I don't know whether we are making progression, but we at least have a common goal. We both want hubby to be able to accept it. It makes me happy that he wants to try, for both of us. I appreciate it more than he could possibly know. It's still hard though. I think his biggest hang up is the thought of me having sex with somebody else. It makes him sick to his stomach.

To me, sex can have different meanings and different feelings. It depends with who, and why. With J, I wanted to do it because I felt like it was the next step in showing him how I feel, and had that connection with him. With some people, it's just a physical attraction, and nothing deeper. When I think of hubby having sex with somebody else, it doesn't bother me, in fact, I'm almost turned on by it. I don't see it as being equal to the sex that we have though.

On the J front.. I'm dealing with my own jealousy issues. He's fully "in love" with his gf. I read their posts to each other frequently because the more I submerse myself in it, the more comfortable I feel, even though the whole situation between them weirds me out, I want to be happy for him. I still miss him and spending time with him. I see him here and there and it's always friendly and I feel a small sense of relief.

I also find I'm missing NRE, and what it brought to my relationship with hubby. I wonder why I can't feel that way without having somebody else involved. It makes me feel like there is something wrong with me, because I love and am attracted to hubby every day.. but as far as the sex goes, that animalistic urge that came with NRE just isn't there. Maybe part of it was my elation with hubby's acceptance at the time? Maybe knowing how it turns his stomach now, makes me also look negatively at it, even though I feel like it's something I can't help.

It's getting really late and I have to be up early, so I'll end for now. I'm pretty tired and was just rambling what was going through my mind at the moment, so I apologize if things were jumping around!

[MrFarFromRight]

Hi Jen!
I'm really glad to see this comment. It's been so long since the last time that you posted here, and I was worrying that things had gone screwy for the 2 of you. Especially since the last post said that things were getting worse, not better.

Every time I log on here I check to see if you or BeoDude have added anything. I so hope that things work out for you.

I'd be happy for you if you could both be happy with a monogamous relationship, even though I would miss your input on this board. But it's clear that you, Jen, wouldn't really be happy: that would only be a case of "papering over the cracks". And that would mean that Beo also wouldn't be happy. Because it's important to him that you are.

Once again I have to express my deep respect for the immense effort that Beo is putting into trying to come to accept a reality that is painful for him. I suspect that he isn't bi (and neither am I), but could you give him this HUG from me?:oStill hanging in there.. still having ups and downs.Welcome to Life! (Glad to read that there are ups.:))we at least have a common goal.:)We both want hubby to be able to accept it. It makes me happy that he wants to try, for both of us. I appreciate it more than he could possibly know. It's still hard though. I think his biggest hang up is the thought of me having sex with somebody else. It makes him sick to his stomach.
[...]
When I think of hubby having sex with somebody else, it doesn't bother me, in fact, I'm almost turned on by it. I don't see it as being equal to the sex that we have though.Wouldn't it be nice if Beo could either
a) fall in love with someone else himself?:eek: or
b) get turned on by the fact of you being turned on by someone else and that making you more turned on with Beo and the whole thing spiralling into some high stratum of ecstacy?:)

But - for the noo (as the Scots say) - neither of these look too likely.:(On the J front [...] I want to be happy for him. I still miss him and spending time with him. I see him here and there and it's always friendly and I feel a small sense of relief.This is generous of you. Some people would become bitter. Quick - while Beo's not looking:D:rolleyes: - another HUG for you from me!I also find I'm missing NRE, and what it brought to my relationship with hubby. I wonder why I can't feel that way without having somebody else involved. It makes me feel like there is something wrong with me, because I love and am attracted to hubby every day.. but as far as the sex goes, that animalistic urge that came with NRE just isn't there. Maybe part of it was my elation with hubby's acceptance at the time? Maybe knowing how it turns his stomach now, makes me also look negatively at it, even though I feel like it's something I can't help.Jen, you don't need my saying this, because you're writing about a niggling feeling and on another level you know that there's nothing wrong with you. And I believe that Beo knows that as well...[...] I apologize if things were jumping around!Apology NOT accepted... because that would be acknowledging that there is anything for which you should apologise. And there isn't.

Warm affection to the both of you,
J (no, not that J!:o;))

[JenAgain]

I'm feeling angry and hurt right now. I know hubs has been dealing with those feelings as well, but for different reasons. I'm feeling like I'm being attacked for being who I am.

I feel like I've done everything in my power to make this easier for hubby and it's not enough. He still feels like I will never be happy with what I have, I always want more, more, more. That he's inadequate, and I'm a selfish slut. He regrets what happened 4 months ago that led to me finding who I am. That his life is filled with negativity and he doesn't know what he wants, what I want from him, or what he wants from himself.

Not only did I give up J, but I gave up poly in general while he works on his feelings, I gave up having friends over during the week nights, I gave up working so he could spend more time with him during the week. Everything I do, and everyone I talk to is no associated with poly and causes negativity. I've tried talking, not talking, I've tried showing him in every way possible that I have an incredible amount of love for him. I can't imagine my life without him in it.

For the first couple of months our communication was amazing, I felt like the luckiest person in the world that I could have a hubby that I could talk to about anything without being judged, and not judge him for what he said to me, and that accepted me for who I was... that was the most amazing thing to me. Then it slowly came to a crashing halt. I'm afraid to open my mouth because it might make him mad, or start him on a downward spiral to negativity and depression.

I don't feel any less about him as a husband and a father. He's amazing. I couldn't ask for a better one. But now I feel like I can't be enough for him. That he wants me to be this perfect person for him that I can't be. I accept him for the mono person he is. I wouldn't force him to be poly, though I'm certainly not against it, and I wonder if it would help me as well. This whole time he's felt like the inadequate one, but I think it's me that's inadequate. How can I possibly be his everything and still be me?

All I know is that I can't imagine my life without hubby, and I can't imagine my life without poly.. so now what? I always said I would give up poly before my husband, and I stand by that. I just don't get, why he doesn't get it. Why he doesn't see how much I love him? That I can love him, and love somebody else, and it takes nothing away from him, except for time. And how much time am I here, waiting?

[MrFarFromRight]

Oh, Jen, dear heart!
I REALLY have to get to bed. It's past 2:30am here in Europe and it's been a long day... with a longer one tomorrow. But I saw that you're online and that you're in pain, and I just can't go to bed:(:(:( without sending you anotherhug (lots of Love)... for what it's worth.

[nycindie]

I think at some point, when you've felt you have done all you could to get the message across, you have to realize that it's up to the recipient of your communication to let it in and process it. If you are honest and loving in expressing what you want, it is not your fault that Beodude uses the information against himself or against you. He has a responsibility as the receiver. Really listening to someone requires putting feelings, assumptions, and prejudices aside in order to truly hear what they're saying, and to find some empathy or way to relate to the communication, as if you were in their shoes.

I think there will be a moment at which you might have to assess whether the scales have tipped too far in one direction, as far as compromising and making him comfortable -- and then make a choice. Do you suck it up and live monogamously, or renegotiate terms so that you can dip your toes into polyamory and let him deal with it as best he can? I don't mean to say that you just go ahead and do what you want, saying, "Deal with it, I want what I want," like some people do. It would be different if you say you want to try it and now negotiations will surround you doing so, with the caveat that you can go back to mono if it doesn't work out. But you can't know if it will work without giving poly a chance. You only tried it with J for a few weeks, I believe, and things like this take time. I wonder, also, it might be easier for him to handle the idea of allowing you your freedom if there isn't someone specific on the horizon, I don't know.

Are you guys still in counseling? Is he still going easy on the drinking? At some point, he's gonna have to put his big boy pants on and stop feeling sorry for himself.

[Carma]

I don't feel any less about him as a husband and a father. He's amazing. I couldn't ask for a better one. But now I feel like I can't be enough for him. That he wants me to be this perfect person for him that I can't be. I accept him for the mono person he is. I wouldn't force him to be poly, though I'm certainly not against it, and I wonder if it would help me as well. This whole time he's felt like the inadequate one, but I think it's me that's inadequate. How can I possibly be his everything and still be me?

All I know is that I can't imagine my life without hubby, and I can't imagine my life without poly.. so now what? I always said I would give up poly before my husband, and I stand by that. I just don't get, why he doesn't get it. Why he doesn't see how much I love him? That I can love him, and love somebody else, and it takes nothing away from him, except for time. And how much time am I here, waiting?

I can soooooooo empathize!!!! Sundance and I are suffering through a lot of the same. :(

I love the nice things Mr said to you, how sweet. We are really lucky to have him here on this forum, as well as the other wonderful supportive people. I'd be a wreck without this!

I feel like I'm on the fence and I'm getting so worn out from working to strike some balance. I am just exhausted. But neither side is more appealing than the next, either, so here I am, balancing but sometimes I feel close to a breakdown from it. Sometimes I dream of running away alone to a beach somewhere, even for a week or two, just for a break from it all! At least I could just be ME, full of love, free to feel, without having to PROVE anything for awhile. Ah, yes, dream on, carma! :rolleyes:

[JenAgain]

Thanks everyone.

Mr - Thanks for the hugs, they are appreciated :) Back to your scenarios, I think I would enjoy if A) AND B) happened, how cool would that be?

Nycindie - Yes, we are still going to counseling. In fact we went today, and today was the first visit I felt that maybe made some dents in what we are trying to achieve? She mentioned the rule of 1/3s... That in a relationship, you get 1/3rd of your needs met by your significant other, 1/3 met by your personal achievements, and 1/3 met by other people (maybe not sexually, but in this case, yes, I would like it to be). Right now I feel like hubs wants me to be 100% that person, where as I don't and couldn't expect that from him.

He is still laying off the drinking, although he asked if he could tonight. I told him that if he thought he could not get all crazy that it would be okay. We'll see how it goes. I don't expect him to never drink again, but at least he has cut back a lot.

or renegotiate terms so that you can dip your toes into polyamory and let him deal with it as best he can? I don't mean to say that you just go ahead and do what you want, saying, "Deal with it, I want what I want," like some people do. It would be different if you say you want to try it and now negotiations will surround you doing so, with the caveat that you can go back to mono if it doesn't work out. But you can't know if it will work without giving poly a chance.


This is what I would like, really. I think without dipping my toes in it, nothing will ever progress. However, I also feel like he thinks he gave it a chance..I felt like it wasn't given a fair chance. That it was back and forth and up and down, that it just couldn't BE for a time to see how it went. I hate to use this term, but I don't think I'm satisfied with what happened with J, as the "chance".

Carma, *HUGS*! Maybe we can meet on that island!? I'm actually getting a vacation at the end of the month.. 10 days, kid free!! Going home to visit my family and see my uncle for his 50th birthday. I'm very excited to have all that time to do what I want without having to worry about responsibilities!

So that said.. yes, we had our appointment today. DH thinks he might need antidepressants to get him out of this slump of negative thinking. Maybe it will help? Counselor wants to see us for two more weeks to see if he can work it out on his own first, I'm trying to remain hopeful.

[Ariakas]

So that said.. yes, we had our appointment today. DH thinks he might need antidepressants to get him out of this slump of negative thinking. Maybe it will help? Counselor wants to see us for two more weeks to see if he can work it out on his own first, I'm trying to remain hopeful.

I didn't read how much he drinks or how often. But as a recovering alcoholic I can tell you honestly, cutting back to a few times a week doesn't eliminate the poison from your system. Alcohol is a depressant. Before trying anti depressants and using more chemicals, cut the booze out for a time and see if that helps.

I used to get stuck in vicious circles of negative energy. I would feel bad, I would drink, I woud feel good, I would go to bed, and wake up sadder. I would not drink, I would feel ok, swing down a bit and drink,.. Ever cycling in and our of negativity. Near the end of my drinking i drank less than I had in the last ten years, but the cycle still applied.

Anyways I am not the preachy type, and I don't know what he drinks, but it is something to consider before starting on drugs. only reason why I mention it, is your are asking him to cut back, you have asked him to slow down and he is asking permission. Those seem like odd things to me...

For the record I am still dealing with the reprecausions of me not learning proper coping skills and using drink to help. Its amazing how much booze helps you "deal" when the reality is your skillet sucks ass

Best of luck...

[MrFarFromRight]

DH thinks he might need antidepressants to get him out of this slump of negative thinking. Maybe it will help? Counselor wants to see us for two more weeks to see if he can work it out on his own first, I'm trying to remain hopeful.I didn't read how much he drinks or how often. But as a recovering alcoholic I can tell you honestly, cutting back to a few times a week doesn't eliminate the poison from your system. Alcohol is a depressant. Before trying anti depressants and using more chemicals, cut the booze out for a time and see if that helps.I have never been much into drinking, but from all that I have seen and read, I agree with Ariakas 100% here! Get Beo to read the whole of that comment, please.

I also have serious misgivings about the anti-depressants. They can become a crutch without which he will feel that he just can't cope. There's a really big danger that he become not only physically but also emotionally VERY addicted.

Added to which, if he takes the drugs and THEN goes on a bender... well that's a good way to off himself.

[JenAgain]

Ariakas - He drinks beer, and usually on the weekends, though occasionally during the week if the next morning is his to sleep in (we alternate who gets the kids each morning). Although he does tend to drink a pretty large quantity on the weekends, and there have been a few periods throughout our marriage was I was concerned that his drinking was getting out of hand and suggested perhaps he should cut back. For a while it was the hard stuff. He's always very calm when he drinks (until the poly thing came about), so it has never caused a problem before, per se. When we went on vacation in December he was drinking an awful lot (this was before poly), but we were also on vacation so.. ?

To answer your question, in my opinion, I do believe he often rides a fine line between it being enjoyable, and it being a problem. I think it did hurt me that after the counselor suggested that we not drink (I don't drink much at all, but if he's not, I'm not), he only made it a little over a week before asking me if he could get some beer. I kind of felt like he's not taking it seriously, or maybe he has a bigger problem than I think?

Mr., I can't say I'm against meds, as I've required them for much of my life. I can tell a night and day difference if I'm not on them, though mostly for anxiety than the antidepressant. I did pretty well without them from the time we got married until we had kids, but that just puts a whole new pile of stress on top, and the anxiety went through the roof. While I have been mildly bi-polar for as long as I can remember, he is only now having issues, I think he will be able to beat it on his own.

That said, he's going to see about getting his own counselor to see on the side, as well as the one we are seeing together. He feels a week is too long between appointments, and he needs to deal with his own issues as long as the ones that involve both of us.

I'm not sure if he comes here and reads anymore..... we don't talk about the site much, but I know he knows I still read and post. *sigh*

[Ariakas]

For the record I am a calm drinker, i am a nice guy, I had supposedly light drinking habits most of the time, except for those times...I couldnt stop... That made me an alcoholic. I was a very high functioning alcohol :)

Honestly, I am not trying to convince you otherwise (he has to figure it out on his own) But the chemical reaction of continued drinking is depression. It is a negative effect.. To take anti depressants while drinking is counter productive. Might be best to check with a doc, but thats my understanding anyways :)

Try not drinking for a prolonged time and the depression might lift... :)

[Beodude123]

I still come here... Just don't have much to say anymore.

[JenAgain]

I'm wondering why I have to be the one to defend myself, to apologize for saying my feelings out loud. I say them with as much care as I can, but it's still not good enough. Why is it me that's wrong? It doesn't matter what I say, it's always the wrong thing.

[Carma]

"Always" the wrong thing? Now you know that's not true -- I've heard you say some wonderful things! And I have also observed you and Beo in synch with each other. So I'm thinking you're just in a low place? And why doesn't Beo have much to say anymore? Looked on his blog and he hasn't written in awhile. Please don't leave us! I could really relate to a lot of what you two have been going thru. Just remember you aren't alone. Sending hugs and encouragement your way :).

[JenAgain]

He doesn't feel like he's making any progress, talking about it or not talking about it. He understands the concept of Poly, but he can't seem to stop being illogical when he thinks about it. It's always negative thoughts. He gets angry, depressed.... and this is without any active poly going on. This is just the IDEA of poly.

Every time we start to have a conversation, if I keep reassuring him, which I have been doing, it never gets through his head. If I tell him how I feel, it's always taken the wrong way, negatively of course.

We went from having very good communication (pre-poly), to have a surge of incredible mind blowing communication.... I was so happy that I had this amazing connection with my hubby and we could discuss everything with no judgements... to BAM. Nothing. Communication ends negatively, no matter how positive it started. Every time I keep thinking we might be making some progress, he spirals down into this depressive pissed off state, which is not like him.

It's like nothing I can say or do has a positive outcome. I just keep my mouth shut, and try and do everything I can to make this all easier for him, because I know it's hard. But I'm getting exhausted from the lack of progress.

[nycindie]

Hmm, Jen, I wonder if he's been influenced by someone whom perhaps he confided in, and the response was nasty, judgmental shit? It sounds like he's been poisoned against poly from the outside. have you asked him if anyone he's been around has said anything? Has there been any family weirdness directed your or his way? Judgments can do a lot of harm. It could be worth looking into.

[MrFarFromRight]

I still come here... Just don't have much to say anymore.Hey, Beo!
Don't sink into the swamp, Man! Don't bottle all this up. It's positive to get things off your chest, even if it's uncomfortable at the time.

I want to ask you a question. Jen writes:We went from having very good communication (pre-poly), to have a surge of incredible mind blowing communication.... I was so happy that I had this amazing connection with my hubby and we could discuss everything with no judgements... to BAM. Nothing.Do YOU see it like that? Do you feel that your communication with Jen / sex-life with her / marriage in general actually IMPROVED [for a while] after the polyamory cards were laid on the table?

I ask you this because
a) if it IS true, wouldn't you like to get back to that improvement?
b) if it ISN'T true, you and Jen need to start communicating with each other better. Have a close look [both of you] at Ariakas' signature. I LOVE that quote from Shaw! I don't want to give you the impression that I'm a total drug fiend but here comes my 2nd drug-related comment on this thread:

A few friends of mine (DECADES ago) all took some LSD on the Scottish coast. After a few hours, when one of them [D] returned from a long walk along the beach, I asked her how it had gone. "[B]AMAZING!!! Even though we split up physically, A, B, and I [D] have been in constant CONTACT, you know? Perfect communication even though we were physically far apart!"
When A and B returned, I asked them about this amazing communication / connection that had been going on between the 3 of them. It was complete news to THEM...

If Jen was on some amazing high in that "surge of incredible mind blowing communication" while you were undergoing torture, I think that the two of you need to talk about that.

I'd like to hope that a) is true, and that you want to recapture that [natural] high with Jen.

As always, all the best to both of you!

[Carma]

NYC -- great question. I know Sundance and I have struggled with this, ourselves. Other people's opinions/judgements, as well as the old voice of "Societal Norms" in our heads, haunting us, saying we are crazy and what were we thinking? Sundance has had lots of backslides and I think this is a big part of it.

MrF -- good food for thought, too! We have had our ups and downs, and I too have asked my husband, "Don't you remember how it was when we first started this? Didn't you feel it was worth trying? Didn't we have our high moments?"
-- Plus, I love your shout out to Beo :) Good to see someone reaching out to him.

Hugs, Jen. I know you're going through a tough time.

[Beodude123]

Nobody "poisoned" me against poly early on. I just didn't yet fully realize what it meant to me. I really only started talking to other people after I started feeling like I couldn't be accepting of poly.

I definitely enjoyed the closeness that was there at the beginning, and the communication. I just didn't like the reason for it. All that went through my head was that it wasn't me making her happy, since all these changes came about when J came into the picture. So there was definitely some bitterness there. I think that was probably the start of the downfall, when it occurred to me that it wasn't me making her happy like that.


But, I've been feeling better this week. Just thinking about poly doesn't make me get all ticked off, so that's a start... I've been trying to be more receptive to what Jen says also, instead of shutting it all out

[nycindie]

Beo, it is good to hear from you.

When you find yourself focusing on whether or not you are making her happy, and the idea that you should be the sole source of her happiness, just try to remember that we are all each responsible for our own happiness. It isn't up to anyone but ourselves to make us happy. Jen's happiness doesn't solely rest on you, and your happiness isn't contingent upon her. So, having more than one love in her life simply means that that enables Jen to best express who she is, which brings her happiness. It's not the people that "make" her happy - it is the freedom to satisfy a need to be herself.

[Magdlyn]

I agree with Cindie here... and in fact, Beo, you "make" her happy by allowing her the freedom to be herself.

Lots of things probably "make" her happy that have little or nothing to do with you. Are you jealous of them? For example, here are things that "make" me happy that have nothing to do with a partner.

Good food
Good wine
A sunny day outdoors
My job taking care of infant twins
My favorite TV show
When the Red Sox won the Championship
How my apartment looks after I do a good cleanup
Music
Dancing with friends
IMing with my sister
Christmas Eve

You get the picture, I hope. Just because another person (or activity) is making her happy doesn't make you lesser. Life's a banquet. There are lots of things that make life worth living. One person and one person only can not "make" another person happy 24/7. If she were to die tomorrow, would you never be happy again? My dad depended on my mom to "make" him happy and he's been depressed for 3 years since she died. Is that healthy? IMO, no.

NRE can make a person feel like their love object is the be-all and end-all of happiness, excitement and perfection. This is idealization. It fades once you spend enough time with someone and start to see their all-too-human faults and unpleasant quirks.

[dingedheart]

Magdlyn ....so why did you get divorced ? I'm guessing your happiness was not in question.


I think what Beo is saying is he is having a hard time processing the difference in the way he feels about his wife and the way she feels about him. The "happiness thing " is just one example of the differences in their individual mind sets. He maybe looking at this from the quiz "she just not that in to me "prospective .....comparing his answers to what he thinks are her answers.

From what I've read he/they are working very hard at understanding those differences and trying to resolve them. But he's not wrong for feeling that way....in fact I'd be willing to bet it's quite common to have those feelings.

I wish them both good luck and happiness in this journey D

[Magdlyn]

Magdlyn ....so why did you get divorced ? I'm guessing your happiness was not in question.



I don't understand your question.

[nycindie]

I think that was probably the start of the downfall, when it occurred to me that it wasn't me making her happy like that.

I think what Beo is saying is he is having a hard time processing the difference in the way he feels about his wife and the way she feels about him. The "happiness thing " is just one example of the differences in their individual mind sets.

Dinged, I think you're a bit off. See the bolded part. It's not just a set of differences in feeling. Beo was feeling blue because he concluded that it was someone else making Jen happy (when she was with J.), and not him. That is why I posted my message about each of us being responsible for our own happiness, to which Mags added her perspective. When one pays credence to the idea that we should be the only ones "making" someone else happy (or that someone else should be making us happy), we naturally set ourselves up for disappointment. Happiness comes from within. Lots of things and people can augment it, inspire us, move us, but we can't be made to feel a specific feeling and it's not someone else's job to do that. People respond with feelings that originate within them. It is a good thing to have a partner that is moved and inspired by a variety of things and people because that means he or she is very alive.

Beo, I'm glad that you also said that you're feeling better and not getting angry right away or shutting her out. I know that was very painful for her as well. You will both get through this.

[dingedheart]

cindie I maybe way off.... wouldn't be the first time .... Boe's feeling blue was because he concluded that it was someone else was making Jen happy....seen through his lens .....or his template. We all are going to see these situations through an individual perspective. "she the center of my universe why am I not the center of hers" .....she's all I want ....why am I not enough? Thats what I meant by the differences and perspective.


Magdlyn You said you are responsible for your happiness and you made a short list of some of the things make you happy ......I guess then you were happy in your marriage and it was your husband that asked/pushed for the divorce.


If we are all responsible for our own happiness....what about unhappiness? So in this case partner's and their word's and conduct can't make "us" unhappy.....right. Its a simple choice of seeing only good....don't let the bad or disagreeable in. I wish I could do that....not there yet.

[nycindie]

If we are all responsible for our own happiness....what about unhappiness? So in this case partner's and their word's and conduct can't make "us" unhappy.....right. Its a simple choice of seeing only good....don't let the bad or disagreeable in. I wish I could do that....not there yet.

No, don't block out uncomfortable feelings. You feel them as they come up without judging or hanging on to them. You look at and see everything and know that it is all what you helped create. But they are your feelings and yes, you are also responsible for your own unhappiness. We have choices in how we react and respond lots of times, and then there are times when feelings just rise up in us organically. No one has the power to make us happy or unhappy (unless we give our power away to them, which is really just stepping back and not owning up to your own shit).

[Magdlyn]

Magdlyn, you said you are responsible for your happiness and you made a short list of some of the things make you happy ......I guess then you were happy in your marriage and it was your husband that asked/pushed for the divorce.


No, not at all. It was pretty much a 50/50 decision. We'd grown apart after 30 years together. He had developed certain interests I wasn't interested in, and vice versa. Too many. Also, he had certain issues (low self esteem, jealousy, a hetero-normative mindset, etc.), and behaviors stemming from those issues. I just couldn't take it anymore... Couples counseling, individual counseling, and hundreds of hours of discussion between the two of us were ultimately fruitless. It was time to cut our losses and move on.

I put the word "make" in quotes in my previous post because I don't believe people make us feel a certain way. I prefer to put it this way: "When you do X, I feel Y." That's a basic communication skill. Using "I statements." "I feel" X. Not, "You drive me crazy! You're such a bitch." "You're pissing me off! You're a bad boy."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/I-statement

An I-statement is a statement that begins with the word "I". It is frequently used in an attempt to be assertive without putting the listener on the defensive. It can be used to take ownership for one's feelings rather than saying they are caused by the other person. An example of this would be saying, "I feel angry when you make fun of my clothes, and I would prefer that you stop doing that," rather than, "Quit saying that crap, you're really making me mad!" (The latter is an example of a "you-statement.")

[dingedheart]

Magdlyn, So are you saying your list of things that "make" you happy should be reclassified in some way. How many times do people here use the word "make " in a general sort of way to describe happy thoughts and actions similar to what you did in your list with out raising a semantic argument. I'm sure their couples counselor has also pointed out the "I" statement skill that you mentioned. Semantics aside he feels bad about not being the one "bringing" his wife enough romantic happiness that she doesn't have to look elsewhere.


YO ....Jen ....Beo jump in here anytime. . "I".. "feel" a little weird going back and forth on thread with no input from original poster.

[nycindie]

Wow, dinged, you sound a little angry or something. Maybe I'm misreading you... seems like you're picking a fight.

To me, it's really simple, we either feel whatever feelings naturally come up, and/or whatever we choose to feel; we respond to the people around us, but they don't make us feel anything. Things in our lives don't make us happy or sad, though their presence may elicit a response. We are responsible for how we relate and respond to those things and people and events. If I feel happy when I'm with someone it could be because their happiness is infectious, but it is my being fully present that allows me to pick up on that. It could be that I simply love certain things about them, which again it comes from ME, not that they are making me feel a certain way. OR, maybe it's just that I am happy with myself, feeling good about me, and my partner is in my vicinity, so it looks like my partner is "making" me happy. But that's inaccurate. Just think about the times when someone was trying hard to cheer you up, but you stubbornly remained in a pissy mood -- we've all done it. Didn't you hold onto it, despite all attempts from someone else to "make" you feel differently?

All we're saying is that both BD and JA are each responsible for their own happiness, and to nurture and support each other, but to focus on why she would be happy with someone else is like wondering why would she be happy when the sun is shining, or why she's happy when it's raining. She is happy because she is expressing herself and creating her own happiness. We have to get out of the thinking that it's our duty alone to satisfy someone we love, without ever allowing room for them to find satisfaction and happiness elsewhere. Why demand that the ones we love be squeezed into such a small, confining space?

[dingedheart]

Wow ....Not angry in the least bit.....just a debate......just reading things differently I guess. I heard what this guy said and understood (or think I understand) his perspective. Right or wrong. I don't disagree with what you have said about being responsible for your own happiness.....we agree :) I agree that outside activities such as the list Magdlyn provided bring people happiness:) I guess I disagree with the discounting or belittling of his feeling on this. Her actions or desires have elicited an unfavorable response. :(

Magdlyn I sincerely apologize if you got the impression I was trying to pick a fight with you ....I was not.

I have to use these :D little faces more...I always forget.:cool:...;)

[nycindie]

. . . I disagree with the discounting or belittling of his feeling on this.
NO ONE has belittled his feelings!!! That's an insulting and shitty thing to say (but I do not feel insulted or mad, see how I choose my emotional response?).

We have only offered Beo other perspectives in a kind and loving manner, and have never belittled him or his feelings. I suspect you are projecting some interpretation of your own here on what we've been posting.

[dingedheart]

sorry again ...but when you said " him wonder why she would be happy when the sun was shining or why she's happy when it rains sounded dismissive to me. Which wasn't the actual problem anyway. Sorry :o I'm sure your right...I was just projecting again.

[Beodude123]

So, with my discovery, it has given me a lot of perspective (if you want to know, look in my thread), and a view through Jens eyes. Denying what we are is a terrible thing, as is denying connections that may develop. I don't want to be an anchor for Jen anymore...

Things probably won't be as bad as I think they will. We had a rocky start, but maybe we can find something healthy to begin with this time?

[JenAgain]

Sorry I've missed all of these posts. I haven't been on much as I was out of town for a couple of weeks and before that there wasn't a whole lot to discuss. We've been going to counseling and it's been up and down... things definitely have been looking up since I went out of town, however.

For the past few months I've been conversing with a guy S, that I used to date. We enjoyed each others company back then, but our relationship was mostly physical/sexual. I had told Drew that we were talking, and left it at that. Our conversations were pretty generic, though we did do some reminiscing, and he expressed an interest in wanting to see me again at some point. I told him about Poly, and the experience thus far and that I was very tentative at this point.

As Drew has been coming to terms with things (and I feel like I have been patient and supportive), I've mentioned S again and it seems to be going well so far. I'm extremely nervous as I don't want to hurt Drew anymore. Not that it was on purpose before, but now that I know what triggers him, I'm very worried about it.

He said he wants me to go see S. That he feels unless he experiences the feelings and sees that everything will be okay after, that he doesn't think he can learn to cope with those feelings. I'm both excited and concerned. I know it wont change things unless he dwells on his thoughts instead of looking at reality.

There is a few weeks before I'd have the opportunity to go anyway, so we will see what happens I guess.

In the interim, I'm hoping we will continue to talk as we have been, and watching him reflect on his own feelings and experiences has been awesome for me. I can see him growing emotionally and I really enjoy it. We talked about setting him up an OKC account, and seeing what we find. I think one of the largest issues we have is our differing views on sex... I was always very open sexually, and I was his second and only. I can have sex with attached emotions, or unattached for pure physical attraction and enjoyment. For him, it's always viewed as attached, and sharing me is a threat. Perhaps if he has experience with other people that he can learn how he responds to different connections. Just a theory at this point....

So that's where we are at. :) In a good place. There are still negative emotions here and there, but they are less frequent and don't cause him to spiral into uncontrollable negativity. We are back being flirty and the sex is increasing again... yay!

[JenAgain]

I know he mentioned it in his thread as well.. but he has been having some ebbing and flowing emotions with one of his friends, C. I've always assumed he was somewhat bi (Drew), even if he didn't admit it, and he's beginning to also start wanting to explore it a little more. He's still not sure how he feels... but I think that it has opened his eyes a bit more to the poly life style and how his feelings for C, don't change his feelings for me.

I'm perfectly okay with it, and enjoy watching him learn more about himself. :)

[JenAgain]

Sheesh, I can't believe it's been a month since I've posted. A lot has happened, and I think it is good!

So, with hubby on the C front. He's still not sure what his feelings are. He did want to explore them a little and we discussed instigating something with C. So, we planned a little evening and invited C over. Hubs went into the bedroom, and I told C that we both thought he needed some lovins and invited him to join us. It didn't go quite as well as planned as C has some issues that have preventing him from getting fully aroused, but he did a bit anyway, and he said he fully enjoyed the experience, and hubs got to explore a little of his bi side as well. I found it quite a turn on myself!

We invited C to come over again the following weekend, and tried again, and it was a little better, but he was still having some issues and getting frustrated. We are both patient with him and realize he has a lot going on in his life right now, so we were a supportive as possible... and again, they got to explore a little more.

Last weekend was my weekend to go see S, with hubs full permission. While I was excited to see him, as it has been several years.. I was uncomfortable about going. I was very worried about hubs the whole time. I decided that I did not like being that far away from home and my family, for the sole purpose of seeing another person romantically. I did enjoy my time there (and we did have sex), but I don't think I'll be going again without my family, unless he comes here. I told S that and he seemed to understand, and he says we are welcome there whenever. Hubs seemed to handle it very well which made me happy. We reconnected when I got home, and shared our experiences.

C came over again on Friday night, and I realized that he's starting to grow on me as well. I was telling hubs about it today, that I have strange feelings for him. Our experiences before were more for hubby than for me... but as time goes on, I realize that C is such a good person, and I enjoy his company, and how much a part of our family he's become. I don't feel a strong attraction to him physically, but I feel an emotional attraction to him, which makes me want to snuggle him, and touch him (hold his hand, give him kisses, snuggles, etc). I don't feel any excitement of NRE, my heart doesn't skip a beat like it does with J (we still talk, and I miss him terribly, but that's on hold for now until he figures out if he actually wants to be with his g/f). It's a more comfortable feeling.. like he belongs here.

Hubby said he hasn't been feeling the "more than friends" feelings for C in a while, but he's still interested in his bi side I think. It makes me feel guilty that I'm starting to really care for C in some way, because he's "hubby's", but at the same time, I don't REALLY understand my feelings here... they are different. Hubby said he didn't understand what I was trying to say either, so I'm not sure if that's bad.. or if it's just as confusing to him as it is to me.

On the hubby front, things seem pretty good! We have as strong a connection as ever.. the sex is good. We have one more appointment with the therapist tomorrow to see if we need to continue. At the last one, hubs thought he was doing pretty well, but she wanted to see us back one last time.. so we'll see!!

Overall, I think we are in a good place. Coming to terms with things.. able to discuss things without meltdowns or arguing. I've found some things that I am not comfortable with, and our communication is still good. I love my hubby!!!!

[JenAgain]

I know in my heart and my soul that I am poly. But I don't know how to handle the pain that's associated with it. This last one has been the worst... his reservations because of me being married brought it to a screeching halt... I don't even know where to start.. or finish....

I don't even have my husband here to bring my smile back since he's deployed. Timing was less than ideal here.. and I can't breathe....

[nycindie]

Hey Jen, just checking in, in case you get notified of a new post to your thread. How are you and Beodude doing?