primary status rejected

[dingedheart]

Hi folks, had a interesting discussion last night. I think she was trying to be supportive by saying I was her primary and blah, blah. At which point I said " what if I don't want to be the primary" I think she said I want you as my primary. I said in poly isn't everything negotiable why is this any different. I then asked "who do you think about when you have mental free time, how much time do you spend texting or checking in on the phone with him. The answer I got was some question to me and some avoidance bs. I then said, "if you are spending you free mental time thinking of this guy... then he's already the number one thing on your mind. He may as well have the title to go along with it. And conversely I'll gladly switch places or be something even less if that meant being the focus of your thoughts and attention. Or better yet just your thoughts. Things got a little more heated after that. And this idea seemed to really bother her. I thinking Ok. whats my up side? I/we get less time, attention, focus. I get to be her emotional tampon when things get rough, in all things not just this relationship stuff but her job, friends, etc. And I almost forgot the financial piece. Here's women who makes over 80 grand a year who never has a buck. Her money is her money and my money is our money. When I think of all the money I have spent/invested in this I could have bought a small island somewhere, a topic for another time. All For What? Whats my up side again?? I said I'm not sure I want the responsibility of primary and I would let her know. Maybe tertiary, but that might not work seeing there is only two, I get that status by default, hey lucky me. I wonder if she'll be thinking of this conversation the next time she pickup her blackberry. What am saying she most likely emailed an entire transcript 3 min after it ended last night. Got go have a lunch meeting.
Look forward to hearing the replies D

[SNeacail]

All I can say, is that was an interesting approach. I can't immagine her not thinking about that conversation for awhile yet. Very interested to see how she responds to this.

I have never understood the "what's mine is mine, and what's his is ours". Living expenses as well as household chores should be shared. Not saying 50/50, but proportional based on income, ability, etc. Maybe re-negotiating that could help you start finding a balance, where you don't feel like you are being taken advantage of.

[Fidelia]

BrotherMan,

You and your wife have some serious issues the two of you need to address so that you get your marriage on the right track. Among them are basic fairness, trust, honesty and communication, going strictly on what you have written on this forum. A counselor or therapist might be really useful to y'all to help you sort through things and acquire the tools you need to work through it and get your relationship back on track.

Adding the complications of polyamory to an unhealthy relationship never solves the underlying problems.

[redpepper]

Was that a vent you just had? I am kind of waiting too. To see what you think about what the conversation you had.

You basically have told her that you are not wanting to be the soul supporter of her and her emotions and actions in her relationships. That is fine, but that means she will go elsewhere. Are you okay with that?

Just because she texts and talks to others more does not indicate a hierarchy. You as a couple decide on that... and I suggest that you move out of it frankly as hierarchies are useful to a point and then they just become disrespectful to the people involved. Everyone is worth being on a even ground I think

It sounds like you are thinking that she doesn't consider you in the position you hold in her life. So tell her that and tell her what position you want to have, including details about your needs and boundaries...

It sounds like this needs renegotiating and refocusing on... that is not something to be sarcastic about all the time, just as a vent maybe... if in fact it was venting sarcasm you were doing in your post? Eventually sarcasm leads to passive aggression in my experience, rather than being assertive about what you need. I say assertive rather than aggressive... assertion comes with a heavy dose of respect and consideration of words, and compassion for the listeners position. Aggression with attempt to bring the listener down in some way... if you want respect you have to give it also.

As to the money issue? I don't think its fair to bring that up when you are pissed off. If you don't like it, change it... it's not open season on everything you hate about your life with her when you have a fight I don't think... If you realize there is something that you would like to change when you are in the midst of a fight then put it aside and work on that later. It sounds like you have an imbalance of finances going and that you don't understand why. So that is to deal with separately. If you don't, and things carry on, and you know that you don't like the situation, then its on your head not hers I think. If you don't address issues that are a concern of yours and not hers, then that is your issue, not hers. Its not fair or relevant to other arguments to bring that up.

Stick to the topic at hand and work at one thing at a time... blowing up over everything at once is bordering on verbal abuse for some people. Not to say that you are, but to let oneself go in that way can be extremely destructive rather than instructive. Again, perhaps you were venting to us, and that is completely valid and welcomed... I do that with people too with a reminder that I just need to vent in order to gain some composure to be able to handle the situation. Often it becomes clear where to head after and I appreciate the ear.

I use to blow up and throw words at people, situations at people and damaged relationships and chances at working towards something better... it isn't worth it in the end and I hurt people I love. Now I make every attempt to get a grip on my feelings before that... It might take some therapy to be able to do that... or a course in communication. There is a thread on that here in the stickies... I also suggest looking into non violent or compassionate communication techniques. They have changed my communication life ten fold.

[SNeacail]

@RP - Ouch! Your absolutely right, but what you said hit real close to home for me. Again Ouch! Off to find some more books to read...:D

[ray]

I can't claim to know how you feel, since I'm in a very different place in life, unmarried, college student, female etc. I would take heart in knowing that she's is likely experiencing NRE right now which is why she thinks about him and txts him a lot. It's sounds like you've been married a long time. It doesn't mean that she loves you less or that she sees him as primary. The NRE will pass. It may be obnoxious and hurtful even, but it can't last forever. I hope that she and her SO are respectful of your needs while they enjoy NRE. I doubt there's much I can say to make anything better but I do wish you the best in figuring out what you need to be happy.

[dingedheart]

hi again, To clarify, it wasn't a fight it was actually started out a quiet discussion, as her trying to get me to understand her version of primary. That's when I got myself in trouble by saying or asking I should'nt be the "primary"... her words not mine. She seem very hurt to think I could have such a thought. And when I said heated she became emotional not me. She had tears. Anything with quotes around it was close to my words as I can remember. The " whats my up side part " was a rant to all of you. I never said anything about money as she her contributions. As for the money thing rant I really don't give a shit that's just sour grapes looking back. If I didn't have kids I may bitch about the time I wasted,.... want those years back and the like. Stupid I know, I wasted and lost more money than the pocket change I was refering to anyway.

The idea of a hierarchy seems inherent with the use of the word/status of primary. I see a change happening already I don't think she gets her behavior/nre may kill things for me. There maybe nothing to go back to after the Nre wears off. Again I was told nothing was going to change... it was just something she needed to explore. In the beginning she said she had no problems with me having a outside relationship. About a month a go I stopped wearing my wedding band....wow another thing she didn't like. Kind of blown away by her reaction... she's free to date, fuck, whatever and I can't stop wearing a ring. So none of you has tried to remove yourselves as the "primary"???? I'm sure its a question that's never been asked, I get that a lot. Thanks D

[SNeacail]

Again I was told nothing was going to change... it was just something she needed to explore.

To say nothing is going to change, when your are changing the entire dynamic of your relationship is naive at best, to believe it was also naive and unrealistic. Any thing we do has the potential to severely impact our day to day lives, changing medication changes things, changing jobs changes us, etc. We need to learn to watch for what is changing and address the problems that inevitably arise and work toward a solution that is liveable.

As far as the money thing is concerned, obviously there is some resentment there. What worked great 3 years ago, may not be what works now. It's not unreasonable to negotiate new systems to run your household.

[redpepper]

I became an unprimary when my wife and I were poly. PN became primary after a time... really now, I wouldn't of defined it as such... she is just as important as she ever was. Our marriage ended, but my love for her didn't change... her involvement in my life changed, but when I think of her now... thousands of miles away, having not talked to her since Christmas, I feel the same as I did 15 years ago... perhaps even more love. The kind that of love that grows with time and experiences together.

I don't have primaries in the sense of hierarchy. Mono is not financially bonded to me or bonded to me in terms of a child, but he is just as important as PN... in time and in experience, the loves in my life become more and more primary... the time I spend with them is not indicative of status either after a time... there is old love and new love and differences in personality... that's it.

[dingedheart]

To say nothing is going to change, when your are changing the entire dynamic of your relationship is naive at best, to believe it was also naive and unrealistic.

What I meant by nothing was going to change was/is the early discussions on this topic were such that "my love for you won't diminish but grow. More love, and happiness for all. Things of that nature. Words we have all read on here and other sites many , many times. In theory that's great and in a lot of cases workable. The rub comes in practice. We have all read post now in which a partner feels like the time or dates and yes even sex he or she is given is out of fairness and or obligation. I've don't think I have read any responses to partners detailing why it was happening or what they plan to do about it.

When I said in one of my early posts I came to this poly situation reluctantly its the same way I viewed cocaine in the 1980's, Don't even try it once because I'll most likely get hooked. I was an adrenaline junkie at that time , and we used and or abused alcohol, thankfully I put most of that behind me. Way to many morning waking up feeling like death, I wish I could get that time back as well.
The concept of poly was not to much different< in my head > as what I did in college... and for about yr or so after. I date several women at once, some on the same day, very similar to stories here. However I never had more than three. And more likely it was two with the third being a transition back to 2. My mind set was fun... Never marriage or anything like that. The problem was the women wanting more of a commitment, generally that's when things got sticky, time to move on so to speak. Knowing myself the way I think I do when it comes to matters of the heart, I personally don't think I could make assurances or statements like the ones my wife has. Sure I could say I'll always love you but I think we all know that could have 3 dozen meanings. When I felt the disconnect happening she would say but I love you. To my reply... like what brother, room mate, cousin ,etc,... never really got a great response back. Or one I remember. Hope that helps explain a little. D

[dingedheart]

I became an unprimary when my wife and I were poly. PN became primary after a time... really now, I wouldn't of defined it as such... she is just as important as she ever was. Our marriage ended, but my love for her didn't change... her involvement in my life changed, but when I think of her now... thousands of miles away, having not talked to her since Christmas, I feel the same as I did 15 years ago... perhaps even more love. The kind that of love that grows with time and experiences together.

I don't have primaries in the sense of hierarchy. Mono is not financially bonded to me or bonded to me in terms of a child, but he is just as important as PN... in time and in experience, the loves in my life become more and more primary... the time I spend with them is not indicative of status either after a time... there is old love and new love and differences in personality... that's it.

RP thanks... I guess in theory hierarchy doesn't have to exist but again, I put almost 20yrs in and to think some fling of 6-7 months is equal is hard to get my head around. When you speak of your ex-wife and your love I think that's how a lot people feel about ex-spouses or ex-partners however it would be hard not to give someone in a current relationship somewhat different status. You stated how you see your relationships and their status for lack of a better word, or their equalness. How would they describe the same situation?? Is this area in which each person may have his or her own take on it?? You mentioned ex-wife, pn, mono how do you describe the others? How did you become un-primary? Did you ask for such a change or was is the nature of a relationship in decline or one of you finding someone new? Thanks D

[redpepper]

RP thanks... I guess in theory hierarchy doesn't have to exist but again, I put almost 20yrs in and to think some fling of 6-7 months is equal is hard to get my head around. When you speak of your ex-wife and your love I think that's how a lot people feel about ex-spouses or ex-partners however it would be hard not to give someone in a current relationship somewhat different status. You stated how you see your relationships and their status for lack of a better word, or their equalness. How would they describe the same situation?? Is this area in which each person may have his or her own take on it?? You mentioned ex-wife, pn, mono how do you describe the others? How did you become un-primary? Did you ask for such a change or was is the nature of a relationship in decline or one of you finding someone new? Thanks Dsure dingedheart. I didn't ask for anything and we sure didn't work on anything in particular, it just happened. One day I had a change of heart. I had invested a lot of time and energy into the people I love and could not hold on to their title anymore. Remember I have been poly for 15 years. A lot of time has passed and I have experienced a lot with my loves. Mono came into my life two years ago... it took time and adjustment, we just let that happen in its own time. He doesn't agree that he is not anything but a secondary, but whatever, he doesn't agree with a lot that I say and do. Derby is the recent addition to my life and we said right from the beginning that we would just see where it went. She is not part of my life as much time wise, but she holds a place of huge importance to me now and I am invested in her well being as well as the well being of her family. History and involvement in peoples lives creates investment and connection. That is what I go by. This man that your wife is with... in time perhaps you will feel the same if you decide to make an attempt to create history with him and her that is... your investment of 20yrs is valid and worth respecting, but I would suggest that at some point you start looking towards the future.

[dingedheart]

sure dingedheart. I didn't ask for anything and we sure didn't work on anything in particular, it just happened. One day I had a change of heart. I had invested a lot of time and energy into the people I love and could not hold on to their title anymore. Remember I have been poly for 15 years. A lot of time has passed and I have experienced a lot with my loves. Mono came into my life two years ago... it took time and adjustment, we just let that happen in its own time. He doesn't agree that he is not anything but a secondary, but whatever, he doesn't agree with a lot that I say and do. Derby is the recent addition to my life and we said right from the beginning that we would just see where it went. She is not part of my life as much time wise, but she holds a place of huge importance to me now and I am invested in her well being as well as the well being of her family. History and involvement in peoples lives creates investment and connection. That is what I go by. This man that your wife is with... in time perhaps you will feel the same if you decide to make an attempt to create history with him and her that is... your investment of 20yrs is valid and worth respecting, but I would suggest that at some point you start looking towards the future.

Thanks RP, I am looking towards the future which is why I was trying to redefine how my new role could work. As you said if I move into a more secondary role things could become more distant or something like that, I believe you were suggesting further change. Imo that process has began and now I have a say in were it goes or rather the depth. There could be a nice freedom with this new role. You said Mono see's his role as secondary and it may have more benefits for him than the " primary", if only in his head which I guess is the case by your description. As for creating history 7 months seems like a grain of sand to me, I know my wife's history and patterns.

P.S. Looked up ogle I think you were use the old definition. Ogle : a loving appreciation for the clad or unclad female form, my preference un. The old definition had to do with creepy naked nipple leering. It's all an out growth of the sex positive movement,.... which is nice. < kidding> This is my definition although I am going to look it up....thanks D

[SNeacail]

P.S. Looked up ogle I think you were use the old definition. Ogle : a loving appreciation for the clad or unclad female form, my preference un. The old definition had to do with creepy naked nipple leering. It's all an out growth of the sex positive movement,.... which is nice. < kidding> This is my definition although I am going to look it up....thanks D

:eek: NO, NO, NO! Please no more debates on "Old Definitions" vs "New Definitions", #1 vs #5, noun vs verb... :eek: It's the English language and most words have multiple meanings. Please let it go. :p

[dingedheart]

I wanted to reply to SNeacail from that other thread by Honestheart sooner, sorry lost in the shuffle.

Your question was is she doing things out of keeping things even. YES. Is it my impression. NO. Now can this spiral out of control? YES very easily. Is there an easy way to fix the problem? NO. Everyone starts second and third guessing everything...... words, gestures, tone. etc.

Your other question had do with spur of the moment things? Well I'm not sure how she feels today but lots of things have changed over the years. I've done spontaneous things all my life. While living/working Germany met this great girl at party on a Tuesday evening and asked if she had plans for the weekend.... she said it was her birthday and she was going out with her roommates. A second later I said I think we should go to Switzerland skiing for her birthday my treat. I just thought it was a really fun idea for 3 day weekend. It was great up to the skiing part....she couldn't ski that good.... nightmare. I hope she remembers it as exciting and fun. When dating my wife I did similar things..... call her at 10am saying I felt like going to New Orleans today go home and get your stuff and I'll pick you up such and such time and off to the airport. Rarely did she say she couldn't.

When we first started dating I had gone to race car driving school and was on weekends in the summer driving formula fords with Skip Barber. I had a Bmw m5 back then a great performance car. She loved riding and going fast in that car. Today we have another performance car but she cant stand the way I drive it. Its more or less her primary car unless the weather is bad the she takes something else. But I no longer drive it with her in the car, its to stressful for her and I don't like the arguments that generally result. Now I did ask, because I remember her enjoyment, or at least I thought I did. Answer, I changed, don't like it now.

Interesting event 2+ weeks ago. We had a family ski trip planned at the day before she started saying she didn't think she was going to go. I knew what was going on but really couldn't and didn't want to make a big deal out of it. I more or less just shook my head and walked out. Not exactly sure what she told the kids but offer for them to bring their friends, no problem. We all would stay at our vacation home so no big deal.

Late Sat afternoon I have very nice crash....I have to go to an ER . I feel banged up but they insist on the ER. I give older kids all my cash and instruction and I have a phone and they phones. Daughter calls panicked can't get a hold of mom!!!!! "I've call 10 times and left messages over the past hr , etc.etc. I told her not to panic nothing mom could do from there anyway. Stop calling her and go have fun. A 20 minutes later wife calls...".heard you wiped out are you ok....to which I told her my prelim status. At That point it was unclear if I was going to be held over night...We live about 2hrs away so I thought the smart play would be for her to come up to take care of the kids. That's when I found out she was in Vegas....I think I just hung up on her. So I guess the answer is yes she can be spontaneous with the right person.

I had/have 2 broken ribs, sprained left knee and bruised kidney. Bad day.

The fallout of this like event are going to be felt for a very long time, and I'm not talking about my ribs or knee there already getting better.

[SNeacail]

Now I did ask, because I remember her enjoyment, or at least I thought I did. Answer, I changed, don't like it now.


I went through this, don't know if it was age, having kids or something else. I used to love to go off roading with my husband, now I can't stand it. When I was younger, it was thrilling, now such activities really make me anxious and it isn't enjoyable at all. Now the only place I have a "need for speed" is on the ski slopes and even that will change depending on my fitness level and my sense of control.

Based on some of your other posts, I can only suggest you may need help from a professional. There does seem to be other issues here with you wife constantly searching for something new and better.

Now, did the trip to Vegas come up only the day before they ski trip, or did it just take her that long to bring up the fact that she was changing her plans? Don't blame you for being upset with her, it was a rotten thing to do.

I had/have 2 broken ribs, sprained left knee and bruised kidney.. Ouch!!!! Hope you heal up fast. This is why I now always wear a helmet. :eek:

[dingedheart]

SNeacail
While lying in the exam room I really felt quite alone and decided to make some small changes that might have a large symbolic statement. Listening to the stories of the doctor's and other staff made me feel lucky and reflective of what could have happened. What if I killed myself? What if(s).....for good 20 min. Here where the professional help comes in. I changed my very large life insurance policies which were put in place because of my business and its exposure into my kids names. I have taken out an additional policy on myself with my wife as beneficiary (50 grand) more than enough, average funeral about 8. I think its only fair I be removed from her policy if I already haven't. Also willing To put similar smaller policy in place for funeral expenses. I think you meant professional help in an other sense....right?

The question of the Vegas trip. I don't know. Didn't ask. I found out in the ER after asking/telling her to get rolling up here because of the time and distance it would take. If we waited for all the tests and results and then make a decision we would have to worry about the hill closing and how the kids would get back to our cabin, etc, etc... Oldest kid 13.. The phone conversation was more short than hostile.... I said "well then that's not going to work don't talk to the kid I'll call you back" , then I hung up. Second though I think my first words were "What" ....then the other stuff....

Before the trip when she hinted that she may not go it was to see if anyone would put up resistance, so she offered the kids take friends. My take is if the kid would have put up a fuss she would have gone....but I've been wrong before.

I'm not sure how I feel as to if it was rotten or not. At the time I felt bad for the kids I guess, knowing that she was making a choice to not be part of family outing. I'm talking pre-trip. And knowing they (kids) very soon wont want to go as a family. I just thought we need to capitalize on these years. To be fair we went skiing as a family over the Christmas break and the kids really didn't say anything about missing mom until my trip to the ER. I most likely let them get away with a lot more anyway so no one suffered. If I had know about the Vegas trip in advance I just would have done pretty much the same thing. Thinking back I never called her or even thought to.
She called every 10mins or so for the next half an hour....none which I pick up because I was on making arrangements for our extraction. When I did finally answer her call I told her to stay lost for several more hours and think up what she was going to tell everyone.... better be good. Let me know the story.


The fallout is coming from many sources for my wife. I called a good friend and neighbor who is also a doctor to rescue my battered ass. The good thing for me he could talk with ER staff and then tell me how they think as an institution. Boil it down to medical facts not legal exposure. The bad thing was all the questions.... Wheres the wife?.... his wife is my wife's good friend more questions from another person. They went to my house rang the bell and pounded on the door. The parents of the other kids got involved...two of daughters friends and one of my sons.

She has stated she is going through selfish phase or stage. I asked when did she think it started and when did she predict it would be over? She mentioned this is not much different than a few years ago when I spent nights and weekends on all the different projects I had running all at once. Fair point from a time stand point. But this is not work verses play argument. This is a family play vs. personal play

Wifes background: each of her parents were married 3+ times. Her mom had additional relationships as well. It is my opinion that my wife is trying desperately to fill in some sort of love hole that most likely can't be filled externally. She has told me repeatedly over the years how I could never understand...maybe she seeks understanding. Maybe love hole is the wrong phrasing for all you perverts. It really hurts when I laugh....but you get the idea.

mono made the comment that moving form a primary role to a secondary status may devalue the relationship. I think its more of a redistribution of value, or equity.

Last point.... Some people can't learn without loss. They don't truly know what they had/have until its gone. They don't know they've gone too far until they've gone way way too far. Sorry for the length D

[MonoVCPHG]

mono made the comment that moving form a primary role to a secondary status may devalue the relationship. I think its more of a redistribution of value, or equity.

Last point.... Some people can't learn without loss. They don't truly know what they had/have until its gone. They don't know they've gone too far until they've gone way way too far. Sorry for the length D

This is one sad story my friend. I know this is only one side, but it isn't very positive. Your wife can't seem to see beyond her own "wants".

I think you are wise to be redistributing your value both within your mind and with personal affairs. There's too much selfishness in this and you need to protect yourself emotionally and legally I think.

I hope it all works out my friend.
Take care and heal fast

[SNeacail]

This is one sad story my friend. I know this is only one side, but it isn't very positive. Your wife can't seem to see beyond her own "wants".

I think you are wise to be redistributing your value both within your mind and with personal affairs. There's too much selfishness in this and you need to protect yourself emotionally and legally I think.

I hope it all works out my friend.
Take care and heal fast

I agree with Mono. You may even want to appoint someone other than your wife to be custodian of your kids money until they are 18 or 21 (courts will automatically appoint the mother if nothing else is specified). Of course this can be changed later if things start getting better.

As for professional help, yes I did mean therapy (and not on your broken bones):p.

[River]

.... It is my opinion that my wife is trying desperately to fill in some sort of love hole that most likely can't be filled externally.

DH --, I have much catching up to do on this story which Mono brought to my attention in his post, but this part moved into center stage while I was reading. That's an empowering, important, insight. For the both of you. For you, especially. Hold it close. And I'll try to catch up on your story -- as time allows.

Peace!

[River]

Okay, while I've basically caught up, I still haven't read the bit about the accident. Sometimes it's necessary to "skim". Otherwise, a boy has no life.

The picture I'm getting is that She is in in NRE, and at the moment He's everything to her.
That happens, and it's not hers or anyone else's fault. And also it seems that she's probably not her own primary. Yet. And what that means is that she's got love flowing with herself (if she's 'her own primary'). Simply put. She's perhaps wanting and "needing" that from other/s, as if it were not an "inside job". If we're lucky, at some point, we realize it's all an inside job.: We "get" about as much as we give. But if we feel empty (a "hole"), it's difficult at best to imagine anything that isn't a Life Raft Situation (LRS). A situation in which we're needing to be rescued by a knight or princess in Shining Amour. The illusion is always brief--however convincing at the moment.

My hope and wish for all of us is that we Wake Up from the Story and its feelingtones. That's why that book -- "Radical Acceptance" touched my heartstrings as it did. See: thread on Spirituality and Polyamory >>> "Radical Acceptance" -- which is about loving self as "primary". Hugs!

[dingedheart]

mono.... Now you know why I was out buying 1000 advil. I still think that day you may have needed them more than I did.

SNeacail ... I went to my lawyer first and you are correct and that hurdle has been over come.... I just didn't want get into the legal minutiae here.

River... thanks for the reply ... As to insight ..... It doesn't matter how many people see problem or its possible fix. If the person who has said problem doesn't see it or refuses to acknowledge it makes things a lot more interesting. To be very honest I think this is like the perfect storm. Parent modeling, trauma from multi-parents and divorces, etc... brain chemistry was treated for depression...parents both alcoholics again chemistry.... mid life crisis which include hormonal changes again back to chemistry. I would be surprised in it was a combination of all those listed and 5 more factors uncovered during the process.

Now I knew what was up 2 days before the trip.... Not from anything being said directly but we exchanged a glance in which she had to look away. She knew I knew what her intentions were. I could have said I wanted her to go or that I thought family time was important.. I didn't. I thought if you don't want to be with us I don't want you with us for all of the natural reasons.

We had a similar argument back in oct or nov. She planned a spring break vacation to Florida for the 3 of us. That's never happened before, always the entire family and sometimes extended family. A month earlier she was talking about all the vacation day she needed to use. My HUGE problem was the selling of it to the kids first... When I blew up she said she was just trying to do something nice and that she was going to pay the 3500 dollar condo and airfare my end was food and rent a car, what a nice gesture on her part.

Wants and needs all seem to blend at some point.

[dingedheart]

River .... Man do I get the skim part. The problem I have is then remembering everyone's stories.

YA... get the NRE thing.. Lot of time and energy gets spent on techniques to over come jealousy, however no Jedi mind tricks to deal with NRE. Two thing on opposite sides of the spectrum.

[River]

I agree, at this point, with the poster who said that y'all should seek professional councelling help. Oftentimes, such folks can help sort it all out. Wants, needs, or otherwise. But choose carefully (the councellor, that is.) Anyway, Dingedheart, I wish for YOU peace and joy and healing.

[SNeacail]

The problem I have is then remembering everyone's stories.

Or they all run together and you can't remember which story went with which person.:eek:

[River]

What, SNeacail? You're not perfect in EVERY way? Shame on you!;)

[dingedheart]

river... Nre ...no one's fault... I think I have to disagree. We all make choices and I never get a pass on bad or thoughtless decisions no matter what.

As for the therapy suggestion. A few years ago we went as a couple and also as individually. One week as couple the next we would go separate then as couple the following week. We did this for about 5 months at which time it was concluded that the problem was in my wife's court. The therapist told me that she was happy to see me and if I needed to come as a way to process and or vent we could continue, but the work on I'm end was completed. And I have to say I learn a lot by the entire process, and it was not something I was excited to do. My wife continued for another few months maybe longer. It went from once a week to once every two weeks to something less... I think the therapist drop her because last minute cancellations and things of that nature. That's speculation on my part but when I suggested she might want to go back if she needed to talk to someone outside the mess she implied she couldn't go back to her.

SCeacail....what is the story behind your username?? I never remember it correctly, and always have to go back and check....I need something to get it to stick.. You mentioned that you also have felt that spending time or dates with husband was out of obligation and not true desire. Foreign concept to me. Did your husband pick up on that??? Do you feel your husband does that to you? If so are you ok with that? Just after the primary status discussion she was trying to initiate a sexual encounter to which I responded... "not really in the mood but if you need some type of release I'm more than happy to help with that". Guess what happened??? Not that interested after that. Seemed a little insulted... I could be wrong though.... so hard to tell these days.

After my run in with gravity and packed snow she seems much more affectionate. More hugs and kisses on the cheek, and the like. I get the intention but this is could be a mixed message for a guy with broken ribs.
I've told her that I don't need this new display to which she said "I'm not doing this for you I'm doing it for me. I feel safe... I feel safe in your arms" I didn't really know what to say in that moment..... long pause.. " that good I'm glad you feel safe" There was at least 4 other things rattling around in there that could have come out but I was just to beat up to start some emotionally draining session.

Although my changing some estate planning which is mostly symbolic and would have no effect on day to day life even if I were to die. I still have not told her of these changes. I not sure what will be the reaction... How would some of you people react if confronted with this type of news???

Hey... River.... maybe here's where NRE could actually work for me.... she may not give a shit at all.

thanks D

[SNeacail]

when I suggested she might want to go back if she needed to talk to someone outside the mess she implied she couldn't go back to her.

Wouldn't hurt to look for someone that connects with her better.

SCeacail....what is the story behind your username?? I never remember it correctly, and always have to go back and check....I need something to get it to stick..

He He, I'll admit, probably not the best username. S is my first initial and Neacail is the Galic spelling of my maiden name. Truth is I have to type it to remember how to spell it sometimes, sorry. SN works for me.

You mentioned that you also have felt that spending time or dates with husband was out of obligation and not true desire. Foreign concept to me. Did your husband pick up on that??? Do you feel your husband does that to you? If so are you ok with that?

I'm sure he did pick up on some of it and truth was, there wasn't alot of dates between us, which was part of the problem. I'm a "acts of service" and "quality time" person and he was never home, so there was a big disconnect there. Sometimes what started out as an obligation was very enjoyable and didn't end as an obligation, but it was something that I had to talk myself into in the first place.

I do think he has done the same, but I viewed it as him recognizing that something was out of place and he was trying to find a way to rectify it. He didn't always get it right and everything just seemed forced, but I couldn't hold it completely against him. Sometimes it takes effort to break old habits, once the habit of indiference and complacency is broken, the true desire will follow.

After my run in with gravity and packed snow she seems much more affectionate. More hugs and kisses on the cheek, and the like. I get the intention but this is could be a mixed message for a guy with broken ribs.

It could be that she realized she could have lost something she really does value. Ask her? I guess I would also tell her how it makes you feel when she abandons you and the family at the last minute, to go play elsewhere.

Although my changing some estate planning which is mostly symbolic and would have no effect on day to day life even if I were to die. I still have not told her of these changes. I not sure what will be the reaction... How would some of you people react if confronted with this type of news???

Oh, it won't be pretty and she will probably be deeply hurt. Based on some of your other statements of her past history, I would guess that, it's more about how she treats and acts toward you and the family than it is about her having a bf. Would you feel differently, if she treated you better consistently? Be clear about where you think the problem lies and what she can do to fix it.

[redpepper]

river... Nre ...no one's fault... I think I have to disagree. We all make choices and I never get a pass on bad or thoughtless decisions no matter what.
.....she said "I'm not doing this for you I'm doing it for me. I feel safe... I feel safe in your arms" I didn't really know what to say in that moment..... long pause.. " that good I'm glad you feel safe"
....
Although my changing some estate planning which is mostly symbolic and would have no effect on day to day life even if I were to die. I still have not told her of these changes. I not sure what will be the reaction... How would some of you people react if confronted with this type of news???to me, thoughtless decisions and bad choices are a result of some peoples inability to act and respond approriately to NRE. NRE is not the cause of her behaviour, its the result of how she handles it. Not very well by the sounds of it.

I think the two other points in the quote relate. Her sense of safety might be jeporidized. I don't necessarily think that you shouldn't of done what you did, but I guess you could of mentioned it before in the spirit of setting an example of how you wish to be treated. I don't blame you for how you handled it though.

[dingedheart]

SN

Wish I'd ask the user name question sooner.....thanks....thanks a lot.

I'm a little confused. If your love languages are service and quality time why wouldn't you want to spend time with him? Or put another way if your love language is quality time why would you have to force yourself to spend time with him?

Its kind of funny I was reading your comment of the "affection" and the loss and..... I just got it. You mean my death... right? I couldn't figure out what the loss was because I haven't told her of the changes yet. Maybe ...Or it could she feels a little guilty not being able to help when needed. Could be she wants to look caring to someones who's been injured. When friends and neighbor are sick or injured she always without question is doing things for them... and generally she isn't asked she just does stuff....good friend. I have to say I never thought what you mentioned as a motivation for the new affection. Not real good at reading her motivations and even when I ask direct questions I don't always trust the answers. I just thought it was unusual...timing and all. I never felt she abandoned the family.....she got a better offer. I think this single act somewhat reinforces my position of her doing thing out of obligation. Given a choice there is no choice.

Not goin to be pretty.....and then some. But have been consistently wrong on reactions or actions I might be worried for nothing. I think timing is going to be the key. I think I need to revisit this primary topic and spell out its how it looks to me.

I agreed to this journey... so from an intellectual point of view I get it. And as I said I "think" I may have practiced this very lifestyle as a younger man. Most of my problems are operational.

Rp
You stated NRE is not problem ...or the cause it the result. But seems to be proffered up as an excuse.. Is this a chicken and the egg argument?

My wife will not suffer financially if I were to die...house is paid for..... stocks other investments she would be a part of.... the difference she wouldn't wildly, and or grossly profit form my death.

How would My mentioning my decision to change life ins, be in the spirit of setting an example of how I wish to be treated??? I think it would look like some type of blackmail or pressure or manipulation. Early I debated telling her at all...if its truly symbolic ...why bring it up .... why possibly hurt her...

[redpepper]

You stated NRE is not problem ...or the cause it the result. But seems to be proffered up as an excuse.. Is this a chicken and the egg argument?Well, when people are in NRE they are drugged up and experiencing a rush of adrenaline... among other things... hormones etc. There is a thread on this somewhere. The question is, what does one do with that? Do you run off to Vegas behind your families back to have a fuck fest? Or do you quietly mull over it while on vacation and plan to meet your lover later... looking forward to it, planning NRE out as a treat for when you are with them....

I dunno DH, I seemed to of pulled off a respectful way to deal with my NRE without anyone blowing up... no chicken and egg stuff went on or goes on. My darling husband on the other hand is not the greatest with dealing with his NRE. I have had to put my foot down a couple of times now when he has neglected his responsibilities.

NRE happens over all kinds of things; spring in the air, a kitten, dancing to a beat and allowing myself to get totally lost.... containing it in appropriate moments is what I have strived for. Dancing like I do when I go out for the night is not appropriate in a grocery store for instance. Nor is taking a day off work to feel the spring air on my face (okay, well maybe that is okay, depending on the situation ;)). NRE can be very selfish, its okay to be selfish if it is contained in appropriate moments I think. It should not be used as an excuse for not considering other partners. No one gives a shit about other peoples NRE. Only the person in it cares. Others might have some compersion, but that can vanish if they are not being respected. Responsibility is responsibility, NRE has no place there as far as I am concerned.

How would My mentioning my decision to change life ins, be in the spirit of setting an example of how I wish to be treated??? I think it would look like some type of blackmail or pressure or manipulation. Early I debated telling her at all...if its truly symbolic ...why bring it up .... why possibly hurt her...I think you misunderstood. What I was saying is that by discussing it first, or even telling her what your plan is would be setting an example of how you expect to be treated. She didn't tell you about her trip, you in turn aren't telling her about the insurance. An eye for an eye doesn't set an example of how you want to be treated. "Do unto other as you would have them do unto you (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Golden_Rule)." I'm not Christain, but this is a profound statement and words to live by to me... I also think of "An it harm none, do what ye will (in harming none and helping all)" from the Wiccan Rede (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wiccan_Rede)...

As you say though, it might mean nothing to her... but it might mean something to her if you are even concerned about it.

[Lemondrop]

I haven't read the other thread you referenced, but I did read this thread straight through, and I feel like I'm missing something.

If you had told her in advance, "I think it's in the best interests of our children for me to change my insurance so that they are my beneficiaries, and I'm making it so that someone else will handle the money because I'm alarmed by the bad choices you are making, and I'm finding it impossible to trust you" then that would be a statement of fact. It might have been an emotional scene, and unhappy for everyone involved, but not manipulative unless you were trying to use it to control her behavior. Telling her after the fact might have the same effect, but if it were to happen to me I would feel ambushed, like I'd been given no notice that my behavior was unacceptable to you and that I'd been given no chance to change my ways.

I don't know if you're communicating with her, and I'm really not trying to condone her behavior, but I have to wonder if she would try to be a better partner if she had a chance to hear these things that you're sharing with us. Maybe I'm being naive, because I have a tough time understanding behavior like what you're describing from your wife.

[BlackUnicorn]

DH, I read this thread and your pain is very palpable. I think you probably have gone through this in some other thread, but I must ask; what is keeping you married to your wife? 20 years? You love her, you just have hard time remembering/expressing/accepting it right now? Kids? You're stubborn? You honestly believe things will get better?

As to your original question; my primary doesn't consider me her primary. Reason; we don't have sex. A perfectly valid reason to my mind.

[dingedheart]

good morning to all

Rp

Yes I did misunderstand your statement. I have tried very hard though out this to respect all views and behaviors. I try to live my life by that rule. In my professional life I'm trying to get away from contracts and get back to old fashion hand shakes.

I think the NRE thing is case specific....some it handle well others don't. But I can tell you that it seems to be used as excuse or a reason to explain possible bad behavior. Several times on here people have said things to that effect..its NRE.. it wont last forever... hang in there... Its not her fault is NRE....as if it season flu or something. I know one thing and three people maybe more are bearing the brunt of that NRE. And I could list all the areas in which I believe to have been effected. Some of these concerns have been discussed with her... others have not. Most times its viewed as an attack, and then dismissed as my insecurity or jealousy.

When I was pissing blood and having real difficulty drawing a breath.... the thought of those two living it up in vegas with my kids money was something I wasn't willing to risk. Not the best time to be doing heavy mental work.. However, days later after some healing and uninterrupted sleep I still wanted to protect my kids from that possible down side. In my head I don't see this as a big deal nothing really changes ... I however am not that emotional about financial matters. As for RP and lemondrops point of having a conversation about....well that could still happen because I have not said anything yet. I feel bad about doing this and still being on her policy that is one of the reasons I feel I have to say something soon as I want to be removed from her policy.

Thanks Rp... didn't have the fuck fest image in my head until now... thanks.....kidding

Lemondrop ... The discussion of not being "the primary" that I had with my wife was born out of behavior and situations in which I saw a shift or sliding away from our relationship. I've mentioned the issue of time, dates, etc out of fairness....this is not uncommon in fact its most likely common. People talk about the shift in their sex lifes "sexless marriage thread" others talk about loving their partners but..not being in love with their wifes/husbands/ partners....some of the stuff I've complained about were not in the brochure when I signed up. Hope that clears things up a little... if not just ask ... I appreciate all of the different prospectives.

[Lemondrop]

...I think the NRE thing is case specific....some it handle well others don't. But I can tell you that it seems to be used as excuse or a reason to explain possible bad behavior. Several times on here people have said things to that effect..its NRE.. it wont last forever... hang in there... Its not her fault is NRE....as if it season flu or something. I know one thing and three people maybe more are bearing the brunt of that NRE. And I could list all the areas in which I believe to have been effected. Some of these concerns have been discussed with her... others have not. Most times its viewed as an attack, and then dismissed as my insecurity or jealousy.

The NRE is an explanation for behavior, not an excuse. The chemical reaction in the brain is well known to cause poor decision-making and lack of forethought. That doesn't make it right when you hurt the people who love you.

I have a pre-diabetic condition, so sometimes my blood sugar drops unexpectedly. This can cause everything from massive stupidity (as in, I can't figure out how to add 2+2) to a raving psycho bitch. My family and I have learned to recognize the signs that something is off, and have ideas for things to do to alleviate the situation. My behavior is more likely to be bad during these episodes, but we all try to take steps to control and remedy the cause. If I were to scream at one of the kids during this time, it wouldn't be acceptable to me BUT I might not recognize that I was behaving badly until my blood sugar was dealt with. That wouldn't mean that it was okay for me to scream at my kids; it just might make my apology go over better afterwards. Might.

All I've got left is I'm sorry. I'm sorry you're going through this. I'm sorry your kids are going through this.

[dingedheart]

blackunicorn... Great questions... Yes/no/yes/yes, yes very, yes..... kidding.

One mistake I made was telling my wife that to me this was a big commitment not to be entered into lightly. Take as much time as you need think long and hard. About yr or so into our marriage the talk of kids came up and again I said " this is great but its not something to be taken lightly. I think I said you add kids to this marriage there would only be two ways out kill me or kill yourself. Why did I say this?

My wife's parents had each 3+ marriages. Thats just marriages lets not forget the numerous other relationships and live in situations. The fallout form that was apparent even then. There was/Is no fucking way my kids will have to go through something like that. I was in my 30's before entertaining marriage. I think I lived a poly lifestyle all through my 20's.. Not the first girl I kissed.

I think perhaps my comment or that pledge to my kids has been used against me. She knows where I stand on this topic right or wrong. She knows I'm not going to walk away. Maybe somebody here remembers where I wrote out our brief history and could provide a link, that

Yes I do love my wife.... I think she is suffering and is trying to fill some void or hole... most likely from past.

No ... I don't think I've trouble expressing my love. Maybe lately yes...or not feeling like expressing anything..

Stubborn .... ya very... 20yrs and 2 kids its something to work for.

Things getting better.... WOW just don't know right now...I think I have to try and reframe things in my head and in real life.

The big problem I have is the disconnect between word and actions....To me actions are much more powerful than words.... I love you can only go so far.

[dingedheart]

Thanks lemondrop for thoughts and comments you are very kind. I'm confident things will work out.

[BlackUnicorn]

Currently my primary is rebounding after a psychotic breakdown, and it has put a huge stress on our relationship, which has moved more into a parent/caretaker-child arrangement. We don't live together at the moment, she is struggling with severe financial issues that I am of limited help in etc. Hell, we even had a fight a few weeks back! She is confident that this will make us stronger though, and that our relationship will deepen with the crisis. At my despairing moments I try to remember I love the person, not the illness. So I think I understand some of what you are saying, DH.

[dingedheart]

blackunicorn thanks for comments.

wow sounds like your going through a lot right now. I have no idea of what the ramifications of psychotic breakdown are but it sounds horrible and labor intensive. Does she have other poly partners to help in this crisis? What causes a psychotic breakdown?

[BlackUnicorn]

Thanks! I don't want to hog your thread, but I'll answer briefly.

She needs pretty much constant baby-sitting, and for other people to structure her day, tell her to shower, encourage her to eat, to take care of her daily business etc. Right now I hope the tweak in her medication will help, since she recently took a turn to the worse (hence the fight!). She has other platonic partners/friends and is living primarily with her mum at this point, although I'm looking forward to moving back in with her in a week or two.

In her case, she has been feeling for a while now that she is a bad person, and destructive to all people around her. She keeps on telling me and everyone else near-and-dear that we would be so much better if she were dead. One of her favourite themes is that we think that we love her, but it's only because we don't know how horrible she really is inside. She feels that she is selfish and demanding and drains people around her and gives nothing back.

All of this is complete bull, of course, but her delusions are so strong that she often feels like 'Person A doesn't like me, in fact they hate me, and they are actively plotting my downfall'.

[SNeacail]

I'm a little confused. If your love languages are service and quality time why wouldn't you want to spend time with him? Or put another way if your love language is quality time why would you have to force yourself to spend time with him?

It usually wasn't about spending "time" it was usually about sex, and with him always running off someplace else, I was left with the kids, housework and my job, I felt like a single parent. We weren't spending any quality time together. "Acts of Service" is also nearly equal to "quality time" and there was absolutely no acts of service being done. So I usually had to be coherced into sex and the longer I went without, the harder it was to get in the mood again.

His idea of spending time together, was for me to go with him to some meeting or event, where I was left alone to fend for myself most of the time. Not fun and not really time together, so I stopped going.

Its kind of funny I was reading your comment of the "affection" and the loss and..... I just got it. You mean my death... right?

Possibly. So many emotions go through your head when a loved one gets hurt, especially when you start thinking about what could have happened. We tend to, at least I do, re-evaluate some of our own behaviors a little. She may regret not going with you.

You said "she got a better offer". Does she like to ski? For me, I would NEVER turn down a ski trip to go to Vegas, but I would turn down Vegas in a second for a ski trip. My bff is just the opposite, snow is not her thing, but Vegas is.

[LovingRadiance]

I think perhaps my comment or that pledge to my kids has been used against me. She knows where I stand on this topic right or wrong. She knows I'm not going to walk away.

The big problem I have is the disconnect between word and actions....To me actions are much more powerful than words.... I love you can only go so far.

These two things-totally there with you!

I won't divorce Maca. I'm not watching my kids suffer the shit I've seen other people's kids suffer in divorce court and I'm not doing that to myself. He can leave as he see's fit (not in the plans) but I'm not.

And actions speak louder than words didn't become a common saying for no reason. ;)

[dingedheart]

SN

Has your husband read the book.... or at least understand the concepts and know his and your love language? This was one of the books on the recommended reading list by our couple therapist, very illuminating for me.

I think the idea of spending time and being in close proximity to one another could be interpreted differently. When you decided not to go to these event did he even notice or care? My guess is not....

Re-evaluate....maybe.... something has changed in the past few weeks.
And also ever since that weekend my daughter has had my wife in her crosshairs....her instincts or the story or stories she was told didn't add up or a combination of all the above. I've seen I daughter going through my wives phone claiming she needed a phone number.....that sparked a fire. She is relentless if she is on a hunt and finds any information to support her theory she's not going to stop.

Yes my wife loves to ski. To be fair she gone many family ski trips..2-3 a year and maybe more with ski club as chaperon. It may be escapism....lust filled trip away from husband and family completely bullshit free.... I get it... but at what cost. I'm sure lot people would love to do these types of things but don't because of the cost/damage it would cause. To me her trip was disappointing from family prospective....could I have done the exact same thing.... answer most likely no.... In my opinion she is looking at this from her very narrow prospective. Years ago I participated in sailboat racing and every yr there was the granddaddy of races and it fell on my daughters birthday....first few yr we celebrated her birthday either week before or the week after..before she knew the calender. Then I got to thinking what I'm I saying to my daughter sailing a boat is more important than her birthday....no way I stop doing that race just not worth it to me. To me it was selfish. This summer I think I'll try backing out of a long weekend at summer house....can't wait to hear why that won't work. She wont be able to prep the boat, carry the gear, inflate the tubes etc,etc, the list of duties is quite long... even if she could do some of the things needed she wont want to. A side from the physical stuff she'll want it to be a family event..."just wont be the same if you're not there." I've actually heard this before.

I think its simple..... romantic love out sourcing. I think moving to a more secondary roll and myself look to out source that aspect of my life might help put some balance back.

LR
I've often thought if some of things were done or are done to try to force me into a divorce situation.....to make the other person quit. I friend of mind said his ex had admitted to this yrs after their divorce.....she didn't want to be the one to file first or be the bad guy/gal. So instead she wanted to make life a living hell to force him to be the bad guy.... fucked up I know .... makes ya think though.

The new saying should be: Actions speak louder than word Unless NRE is involved then its anyone's fucking guess...

[SNeacail]

SN

Has your husband read the book.... or at least understand the concepts and know his and your love language? This was one of the books on the recommended reading list by our couple therapist, very illuminating for me.

I think the idea of spending time and being in close proximity to one another could be interpreted differently. When you decided not to go to these event did he even notice or care? My guess is not....

We read the book, he probably stuck to the highlights after I read it, but it was definitely an excelent book. I wish we had read 20 years ago, although it probably wouldn't have made as big an impact :p. Things have been much better the last 5 months. I actually learned about the book from people on this board and beat our marriage councelor to bring it up.

Last July/August, I was filling out divorce paperwork, things were really bad. We have both done alot of work on both ourselves and our relationship. I still wish it didn't hurt so bad when we hit the lows. It's like the devastaton from last July all over again, but it doesn't last as long and we find solutions and appologies sooner. I think that might be why it's so hard to recover when things go bad, things are great for a while, but when issues come up, the hurt isn't proportional to the immediate problem, it hits the lowest low again.

[BlackUnicorn]

LR
I've often thought if some of things were done or are done to try to force me into a divorce situation.....to make the other person quit. I friend of mind said his ex had admitted to this yrs after their divorce.....she didn't want to be the one to file first or be the bad guy/gal. So instead she wanted to make life a living hell to force him to be the bad guy.... fucked up I know .... makes ya think though.

'Be the worst possible partner you can be to make them call it quits first' is like the oldest trick in the 'Really Low Moves in any Relationship' book. A friend likes to do this with cheating so long and so hard he just has to kick her out.

[dingedheart]

SN

It sounds like he may not be as motivated to make your collective situation better. When we finally decided to see a therapist which in most cases is way to late.... I thought our problems were mostly generated from my wife. However my motivation was my kids. When I shifted my thinking from fault to learning lots changed. I read all the books, did all the home work kept a journal...never did that before...learn as much as I could about myself and relationship counseling

As a result I learned a lot. I didn't understand the love language concept. Simple communication techniques that eliminated the frustration and eventual break down which always resulted in name calling and swearing. With in a month everyone could see a marked difference. The heat had been turned way down.

Are you still going to the marriage counselor? Does your husband feel these same lower lows or is it just you? Maybe its a memory type response. It was a few years ago but I do remember similar problems happening.....generally it was because the "issue" had been thoroughly beat to death with some satisfactory conclusion only to be repeated by the offending party all over again. This resulted in disappointment, frustration and anger. I viewed these fractures as a complete disregard for the process and the agreement as to how to move forward. However in truth old habits and thought die hard.... Two steps forward 1-3 back.
Good luck D

Blackunicorn .... ya..I think you're right lowest of the low...
I personally wouldn't want to treat someone badly intentionally....bad Karma...waste of everyone's time, golden rule, not to mention its cowardly.

[BlackUnicorn]

Blackunicorn .... ya..I think you're right lowest of the low...
I personally wouldn't want to treat someone badly intentionally....bad Karma...waste of everyone's time, golden rule, not to mention its cowardly.

From my observations, the people who do this tend to have histories of abuse, and they channel the hurt into various addictions, romance/NRE/sex addiction among them. They have a really low esteem and are constantly looking for that one person who can make them whole. Their baggage makes them the worst possible candidates for long-term mutually committed monogamy (or responsible polyamory for that matter), but they tend to crave love and attachment. And when they get it, they think either 1) this person doesn't really love me, because I'm inherently unlovable; 2) this person doesn't really know how horrible and unlovable I am inside, so I have to make them understand by showing them; or 3) this person loves me, which makes them a total loser, for who else would love somebody as unlovable as me?

While I'm not saying this kind of behavior is okay, it is often not entirely intentional, either.

[SNeacail]

SN

It sounds like he may not be as motivated to make your collective situation better.

Huh? Prior to the disaster of last July, I would probably agree, but since we have both worked hard to make changes and correct issues quite a number of issues.

Are you still going to the marriage counselor? Does your husband feel these same lower lows or is it just you? Maybe its a memory type response.

Yes, we are still seeing the councelor, but only once a month and even that is killing our finances right now. I don't think he does feel the same lows. I was the one betrayed and experienced anxiety attacks for the first time in my life. I'm sure the current low's are memory related. It's like everytime we have a fight (completely un-related to the issues of last July), I go throught the same heart crushing, near anxiety feelings of despair, as if there is no hope. They are getting fewer and don't last as long, but we are dealing with 20 years of bad communication and resentments, so some of it is to be expected.

I think it is these memory related low's that make repairing damaged relationships so hard. Even small little things can set off the feeling of absolute despair.

[dingedheart]

SN

The reason I questioned his motivation was you saying read the highlights of the Chapman book that's all. I know exactly how you feel as to the expense of it all....sucks ....I ended up looking at it as investment...maybe paying out in the future or helping my kids.

Has being here helped with your own situation? Have you posted questions to gain insight into your relationship issues? What better place to get relationship guidance....from people who have 2 or 3 going on all at once.:)

take care D

[SNeacail]

SN

The reason I questioned his motivation was you saying read the highlights of the Chapman book that's all. I know exactly how you feel as to the expense of it all....sucks ....I ended up looking at it as investment...maybe paying out in the future or helping my kids.

Has being here helped with your own situation? Have you posted questions to gain insight into your relationship issues? What better place to get relationship guidance....from people who have 2 or 3 going on all at once.:)

take care D

He told me he would read the whole book (I have it downloaded on my Laptop), but as he has made a concerted effort and we have discussed it alot, I didn't think it was necessary.

Being here on this board has helped me tremendously in so many areas. I have gained incredible insight into relationships, COMMUNICATION and how to live outside the box. I have also learned alot about myself and somethings I wasn't taking care of personally, that the councelor never even touched on. I have looked at other boards dealing with marriage and I'll never go back to them as I have gotten much more unbiased, non-judgemental help here.

[dingedheart]

SN
I think that it's really great that you have gained insight and tools to help you with your situation. I know writing on here has forced me to have more focus and attention to all my words associated with this topic. Its has also helped process events and situations as they come. I also have gotten lots of good advice.

Take care D

[dingedheart]

Because of recent events I requested a meeting to discuss a months worth of stuff. I'm calling it the monthly poly progress meeting. I prepared an outline of my issues, concerns, and resulting actions on my part.... the insurance thing. I called her during the day to set up a time for this discussion....she said how about tonight after kid are asleep.... OK fine. I handed her the outline about an hour or so before she and I would be able to talk to give her a chance to see what was on my mind.

Talk time rolled around and she said she wasn't going to be able to have this discussion as planned because she has very important meeting/training and didn't want to look as if she been crying all night. But she told me that while crying so I'm not getting the difference. This meeting has been tentatively rescheduled for Sat....what a way to kill a weekend. I'm guessing she and the bf are going to have lunch today or tomorrow to discuss her response. God I'd love to hear that conversation.

To give her a clear picture of how I feel and where my mind is at I have given her full access to a journal/ legal pad I started jotting things in shortly after coming to this site. If you think I ask a lot of questions here you should see this legal pad its ground zero for questions... only a percentage of them make it here.

Some sort of understanding on the topic of "primary" will happen this weekend. My guess is the word primary is going to be dropped out of the lexicon. Will see.

[redpepper]

Phew. Good luck!

[FlameKat]

Good luck... hugs in advance for the tough moments and... GOOD LUCK.....








did i mention...... GOOOOD LUUUUCK :D

[dingedheart]

primary or any other status is not relevant anymore and no longer of interest to me. Things blew up before any of that could happen.

[MonoVCPHG]

Not sure what to say to your last comment..hope you guys are hanging in there :(

[MonoVCPHG]

Not sure what to say to your last comment..hope you guys are hanging in there :(

Sorry my friend..I just caught up on what's been happening. Take care of yourself and your daughter. Try to remember your wife is still human and is already paying for this. Her reality has just changed. Your daughter is priority now...so sad.

[dingedheart]

Thanks mono ....I have one slight advantage I've read most of emails....studied the pictures. They should have behaved more like humans... right now I regard both of them as big balls of string or yarn.... NOT human...Yarn. I'm sure this is one of the reasons she wanted to kill herself. They've awoken a very angry sleeping giant....I'm sure my wife knows what I'm capable of but this fucking fool has NO fucking clue. I will have his head on a pike!!!!!!!

[nycindie]

They've awoken a very angry sleeping giant....I'm sure my wife knows what I'm capable of but this fucking fool has NO fucking clue. I will have his head on a pike!!!!!!!

I'm confused. You did know they were sexual, right? You had already said you wanted "secondary" status. Why is it that what they do is cause for revenge? You were aware of her relationship.


You two have plenty of problems and deeper issues to handle and heal, but I don't understand why some kinky pictures is what sends you over the edge, after everything else.

[River]

They've awoken a very angry sleeping giant....I'm sure my wife knows what I'm capable of but this fucking fool has NO fucking clue. I will have his head on a pike!!!!!!!

Justified or otherwise, PLEASE contain your anger and resentment. I don't mean
ignore it, or suppress it, or repress it.... I mean, place it in a container that allows you to process it without resorting to violence or even threats of violence.

I say this because I fear someone's going to get hurt, and because I'd hate to see you thrown in prison.

There are lots of people who can help you with containing and processing your rage and hurt. Go to them before ruining yours or anyone elses life. Please.

[Penny]

I share nycindie's confusion.

You were aware they were sexually active, right?

It was foolish to have photographic evidence, but your daughter was snooping in her mother's email, correct?

These are her private emails. Sharing them with the family would be immoral and would not do anyone any good.

You must, of course, think of your daughter first. But I do not understand where the rage is coming from.

[dingedheart]

River
thanks and I was speaking more figuratively. The other thread explains in more detail. I'm not sure I care about collateral damage as it relates to my wife and her bf....from their words in the email traffic they were not concerned with how others felt. I understand the point of view of some to see this as a mistake or accident or even the result of snoppy daughter. Its much much more complex.... The people I told the two therapists ( man and woman) and the lawyer all listen seem to understand then spent an hr with the material and all came back with different looks on their faces and tones in their voices. The woman seemed to have had a hard time perhaps having just met with my daughter. They where all shocked.... and they seem to get it the gravity of the situation better.

[dingedheart]

Penny and nycindie
I understand why you are confused check out other thread in general discussion section if you want.

[LovingRadiance]

dinged,

there is nothing like a picture to get the picture (and no I'm sure we don't any of us want to see them).

I'm so glad you got therapists involved quickly. With any luck they'll be able to lead your daughter through the shock and pain so she can move on with her life. She's young, she deserves to put this behind her. (not saying it will "go away", just that if she can get past it to have a full and happy life that's best).