jealousy article

[redpepper]

http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/anger-in-the-age-entitlement/201003/disarming-the-jealousy-complex

"Disarming Complex Jealousy

1. Don't trust obsessions. They greatly distort reality. If you can't stop thinking about your partner flirting with someone else, you must distrust the thought process. The longer obsessive thinking goes on, the more certain you become and the more likely you are wrong.

2. Regulate core hurts. The primary component of complex jealousy is self-diminishment - you feel unlovable and inadequate as an intimate partner. These "core hurts" give rise to the obsessions. If, in my heart, I don't believe that I am worthy of love, how can I believe someone who says she loves me? I will assume that she doesn't know the real me, or she wants something else (my money, house, car, or socks), or she wants someone else. Because I cannot possibly be enough for her, I will look for "clues" that she is seeking fulfillment somewhere else. Many studies show that whatever the brain looks for, it will find.

When attacked by the painful feeling of unworthiness, before it stimulates a cycle of obsessions and revenge motives, ask yourself out loud:

"What can I do to feel more lovable and adequate?"

Just uttering the words will make it clear that devaluing, belittling, hassling, or punishing your loved one is unlikely to make you feel like a lovable and adequate partner.

To feel worthy of love and adequate as an attachment figure, begin by trying as hard as you can to see the world through your partner's eyes and to feel what it's like in his/her shoes. Appreciate that he/she probably feels unlovable and inadequate as well. Think of what you can do to help the both of you feel more worthy of love.

3. Focus on compassion, not trust. If you have suffered from complex jealousy, you don't have the confidence to trust. Focus instead on compassion for yourself and your loved one. Compassion, an important component of your core values, is sympathy for core hurts, with a motivation to heal, improve, appreciate, connect, or protect. Trust will eventually return, after a long period of self-compassion and compassion for loved ones. But it will fall apart almost immediately if you try to trust without a great deal of sustained compassion.

4. Follow the self-correcting motivation of simple jealousy. Be more compassionate, supportive, cooperative, and loving. Be mindful of the assets your partner brings to the relationship. Think of what you can do at this moment to make your relationship stronger."

thoughts on this and other points of the article??

[GroundedSpirit]

Hey RP,

I suspect you're going to know what I have to say about this before I say it. But for others that are maybe new or haven't heard this maybe it will be useful.

I'm always appalled but the apparent lack of knowledge of these waters by 'supposed' professionals or other knowledgeable people. And I think that's why 'jealousy' is such a difficult mountain to climb for most people. They are picking the wrong path based on advice of these people who are often on the wrong one themself !

1> Jealousy and envy are two very different things and have to be addressed differently and with different tools.

2> Jealousy is a FEAR based protective response. We are FEARFUL of LOSING something we value (usually highly).

3> Envy results from feelings of inadequacy and insecurity. We think life is a competition, relationships are a competition and that we don't have what we need to compete successfully.

Fear of loss can only come from something we feel we've WON ! Something we have some 'ownership' claims to. Living, sentinent creatures are not designed to be 'owned' !

Nobody can 'steal' anyone's heart, respect, love unless we behave in some manner as to become unrespected, - 'unloveable'. If this emotion can be removed so easily it was never there in the first place. Only a masquerade.

The feelings of fear and insecurity can be a catalyst though. As we witness so often on this forum and other similar places and in person, being forced (it seems that's what it often takes) to sit back, get some clarity on what's at the root of these emotions and belief systems, separate accordingly (jealousy vs envy), and attack the problem(s) using the proper tools and approach can be a life changing and life GIVING experience.

Once we have the proper understanding and develop some skills, life is never the same for us. It's often like the wind finally under our wings. A feeling of freedom and confidence that we always wished for before but understood at some deeper level we didn't have. Release of fear !

So I think this article adds more confusion to the mix rather than clarity.
Although some of the methods might be used in certain situations, overall it misses the big picture.

GS

[TL4everu2]

I'm gonna post to subscribe. ;)

[redpepper]

Awesome that you put your 2 cents in GS. I am hoping that people will do so. We don't all think the same way, but putting our opinions out there is helpful to others in order that they come up with their own.

My thought is that jealousy and envy are hugely diverse in their meaning. Much like the definition of love or poly... each person has their own take. This article is one take. A valid one, but not the big picture to me.

I suggest reading the whole article to get the whole picture... it might make a difference. I just posted part of it.

[GroundedSpirit]

............ We don't all think the same way, but putting our opinions out there is helpful to others in order that they come up with their own.

My thought is that jealousy and envy are hugely diverse in their meaning. Much like the definition of love or poly... each person has their own take.

Yes RP - I hear exactly what you are saying. How many conversations have most of us had over the need to get semantically clear in order to have a productive conversation ? !!!

But I'm not so quick (or comfortable) trying to let these two terms wash over as 'you can have your meaning and I can have mine'. Because these emotions and reactions are SO critical to all relationships and cause SO much drama and heartache, it's imperative that we have a clear and agreed-to standard. We're often building life rafts because of these terms and the use of the right tool to build with is critical. Otherwise - the raft will likely sink (unless we are plain lucky :) ).
If I need a hammer and you bring me a saw.............well.........you get the picture.
The tools needed to reconstruct 'jealousy' and 'envy' are dramatically different. If we can't even agree what we're building what's the odds ?

Careful..............

GS

[redpepper]

Perhaps GS. I guess I haven't felt or dealt with jealousy or envy in so long it isn't part of my philosophizing right now. I don't agree or disagree with the article. I don't agree or disagree with you. I just don't have any investment at this point in any of it... I am willing to be a listener on this one. If and when I have a stance, I will be sure to let everyone know ;):D

[Ariakas]

As someone currently experiencing jealousy or envy. This is good timing. I am .. trying to figure out which it is. I rarely experience jealousy in life. I never fear losing what I have (ironic right now I guess). I am confident in my relationships core...but its the misc things around the core that get me. GS's explanation is clear and concise. I appreciate that. With his explanation I am leaning towards envy.

Anyways, great timing for the article and responses. Still doing my own reading trying to figure out whats happening and how to deal. :)

Thanks

[MonoVCPHG]

Envy, jealousy and schadenfreude
See also: Jealousy#Comparison_with_envy

"Envy" and "jealousy" are often used interchangeably, but in correct usage they stand for two different distinct emotions. In proper usage, jealousy is the fear of losing something that one possesses to another person (a loved one in the prototypical form), while envy is the pain or frustration caused by another person having something that one does not have oneself. Envy typically involves two people, and jealousy typically involves three people. It is possible to be envious at more than one individual at any given time. Usually envy involves wanting the beauty, wealth, or socioeconomic status of another individual. Envy and jealousy result from different situations and are distinct emotional experiences.[8] Both envy and jealousy are etymologically related to schadenfreude, the rejoicing at, or taking joy in, or getting pleasure from the misfortunes of others.[9][10]
[edit]In philosophy

Aristotle (in Rhetoric) defined envy (φθόνος phthonos) "as the pain caused by the good fortune of others",[11][12] while Kant defined it as "a reluctance to see our own well-being overshadowed by another's because the standard we use to see how well off we are is not the intrinsic worth of our own well-being but how it compares with that of others" (in Metaphysics of Morals). In Buddhism the third of the four divine abidings is mudita, taking joy in the good fortune of another. This virtue is considered the antidote to envy and the opposite of schadenfreude.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Envy

everything else is just opinion.....but then again even experts are just expressing their opinion.

[AutumnalTone]

1> Jealousy and envy are two very different things and have to be addressed differently and with different tools.

2> Jealousy is a FEAR based protective response. We are FEARFUL of LOSING something we value (usually highly).

3> Envy results from feelings of inadequacy and insecurity. We think life is a competition, relationships are a competition and that we don't have what we need to compete successfully.


I'll have to disagree with this.

Jealousy is the fear of losing something, yes. What drives it is most likely a feeling of insecurity. In that, we agree.

Envy is wanting what somebody else has. It may or may not be driven by feelings of inadequacy or insecurity. Indeed, one can feel envy without ever feeling inadequate or insecure.


Fear of loss can only come from something we feel we've WON ! Something we have some 'ownership' claims to.


I think that's a nonsensical notion. We can certainly lose what we expect to have available without ever having "won" anything. And it has nothing to do with feeling ownership of anybody.

I expect my wife to hang around because she tells me she enjoys my company. I didn't "win" her company any more than I "won" the friendship of my best friend from high school. I certainly don't feel I own either of the two.

So the idea that fear of loss can only come from feeling we own somebody else just doesn't hold up to examination.


If this emotion can be removed so easily it was never there in the first place. Only a masquerade.


I also find this nonsensical. Emotions are sometimes fleeting and vaporous, lasting but a moment. At other times they can burn in the hearth of someone's heart for ages. There's no guarantee of longevity of emotion. With that in mind, to say that a short-lived emotion never existed strikes me as a bit absurd.

[Catfish]

Because I cannot possibly be enough for her, I will look for "clues" that she is seeking fulfillment somewhere else. Many studies show that whatever the brain looks for, it will find.

So true. There is a fine line between intuition and confirmation bias.


When attacked by the painful feeling of unworthiness, before it stimulates a cycle of obsessions and revenge motives, ask yourself out loud:

"What can I do to feel more lovable and adequate?"

Just uttering the words will make it clear that devaluing, belittling, hassling, or punishing your loved one is unlikely to make you feel like a lovable and adequate partner.

This advice alone has been the key to overcoming my feelings of jealousy. If you feel like you're not enough, that likely means that you are not enough... for yourself.

Focus on compassion, not trust.

This is a tricky bitch for me. I am the trusting sort and, while I totally get that in the throes of jealousy compassion is more powerful than trust, that has always been my secret weapon. The idea that I'm not confident enough to rely on my trusting nature is very disarming to me. I can't trust my trust? Fuck.

Follow the self-correcting motivation of simple jealousy. Be more compassionate, supportive, cooperative, and loving. Be mindful of the assets your partner brings to the relationship. Think of what you can do at this moment to make your relationship stronger.

Check, check and check.

Thanks RP. Good stuff.

[polychronopolous]

Subscribing.

[nycindie]

Psychology Today also has a short article about the difference between jealousy and envy:

http://www.psychologytoday.com/articles/199401/devastating-difference


A Devastating Difference

Jealousy exposes fear of loss; envy hinges on feeling inferior.
By Hara Estroff Marano, published on January 01, 1994 - last reviewed on July 16, 2009


Envy vs. Jealousy

Long lumped together by ordinary folks and scholars alike, envy and jealousy are not a single, formless "super emotion." On the contrary, they are distinct, with different components, and are in fact elicited by completely different situations and in completely different settings.

According to Georgetown University psychologist W. Gerrod Parrott, Ph.D., envy occurs when a person lacks another person's superior quality, achievement, or possession, and desires it—or wishes that the other person lacked it.

Jealousy, by contrast, occurs in the context of a close relationship when a person fears losing an important other to a rival—in particular, losing a relationship that is important to one's sense of self.

For all their distinctiveness, envy and jealousy sometimes occur together, Parrott reports in the Journal of Personality and Social Psychology (Vol. 64, No. 4). For instance, when a romantic partner gives attention to an attractive rival, a person may feel both jealous of that attention and envious of the rival for being so attractive. And since jealousy involves the loss of a personal relationship, it's usually more intense than envy.

Here's how envy and jealousy stack up:

ENVY


Feelings of inferiority

Longing

Resentment of circumstances

Ill will towards envied person often accompanied by guilt about these feelings

Motivation to improve

Desire to possess the attractive rival's qualities

Disapproval of feelings

JEALOUSY

Fear of loss

Suspicion or anger about betrayal

Low self-esteem and sadness over loss

Uncertainty and loneliness

Fear of losing an important person to an attractive other

Distrust

[nycindie]

Another article, about envy, from the Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosphy has a small section explaining the difference between jealousy and envy:

D'Arms, Justin, "Envy", The Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy (Spring 2009 Edition), Edward N. Zalta (ed.),
URL = <http://plato.stanford.edu/archives/spr2009/entries/envy/>.

"1.2 Envy vs. Jealousy

Ordinary language tends to conflate envy and jealousy. The philosophical consensus is that these are distinct emotions.[2] While it is linguistically acceptable to say that one is jealous upon hearing about another's vacation, say, it has been plausibly argued that one is feeling envy, if either, in such a case. Both envy and jealousy are three-place relations; but this superficial similarity conceals an important difference. Jealousy involves three parties, the subject, the rival, and the beloved; and the jealous person's real locus of concern is the beloved—the person whose affection he is losing or fears losing—not his rival. Whereas envy is a two party relation, with a third relatum that is a good (albeit a good that could be a particular person's affections); and the envious person's locus of concern is the rival. Hence, even if the good that the rival has is the affection of another person, there is a difference between envy and jealousy.[3] Roughly, for the jealous person the rival is fungible and the beloved is not fungible. So he would be equally bothered if the beloved were consorting with someone else, and would not be bothered if the rival were. Whereas in envy it is the other way around. Because envy is centrally focused on competition with the rival, the subject might well be equally bothered if the rival were consorting with a different (appealing) person, but would not be bothered if the ‘good’ had gone to someone else (with whom the subject was not in competition). Whatever the ordinary meaning of the terms ‘envy’ and ‘jealousy,’ these considerations demonstrate that these two distinct syndromes need to be distinguished."





Note: I had to look up the definition of fungible
fun·gi·ble ˈfʌndʒəbəl [fuhn-juh-buhl] –adjective (Law). (esp. of goods) being of such nature or kind as to be freely exchangeable or replaceable, in whole or in part, for another of like nature or kind.

[nycindie]

And for further edification... :)

I found a short article about the difference between jealousy and envy at a site called differencebetween.net (interesting site, btw):

http://www.differencebetween.net/language/difference-between-jealousy-and-envy/

Difference Between Jealousy and Envy

Categorized under Language

These two words are very similar and are listed as synonyms. Their time of derivation is close as well. Jealously has an origin of between 1175 and 1225. Envy has an origin stated to be between 1250–1300. Both are cited as being most recently derived from Middle English. The fact that envy seems to have originated after jealousy it seems to imply that it is the result of an attempt to further clarify or distinguish concepts. The differences between these two are a subtle one, which is true with nearly any synonyms. It does exist though in the overall usage and many of the specific definitions. There are a number of definitions though that overlaps. To begin let it be pointed out that envy is used as a noun and a verb, while jealously is only used as a noun and is a state of being that references the adjective jealous.

Jealousy is a state of being that is rather focused in what it refers to. In general the common uses refer to states of unease. In some definitions these are elevated to resentment and suspicion. It can refer to a general state or specifically a state of mind. Jealously in some instances may refer to simply a vigilance or commitment to maintaining or guarding a thing.

While jealousy often refers to a rival, envy is often focused toward the possessions and advantages of another. It may also include the idea of right. In general this is based on the individual being more deserving of the objects that the envy is focused on. For example the individual that is envious may consider themselves to be more deserving of the possessions of another. The verb form of envy can refer to an instance when an individual feels that way toward an object.

The most obvious difference of the two is that jealousy is generally focused toward an individual and specifically toward an individual that may be considered a rival. Envy instead focuses more on the object than the person that possesses it, though the envy may be based or accompanied by the assessment that the individual deserves what they envy.

[GroundedSpirit]

Hey Autumnal,

Some thoughts for and against.....

.........
Envy is wanting what somebody else has. It may or may not be driven by feelings of inadequacy or insecurity. Indeed, one can feel envy without ever feeling inadequate or insecure.

True. I agree. EXCEPT in the context of what we are talking about the envy you speak of that is low level ( envy over physical things etc) seldom cause the type of problems and drama that inadequacy does in relationships. Context is important. We're dealing with relationships here and the competitive factor that so many people can't seem to step aside from.


I think that's a nonsensical notion. We can certainly lose what we expect to have available without ever having "won" anything. And it has nothing to do with feeling ownership of anybody.

Agree and disagree on this one. And it's misleading and could send some down a wrong path. CAN we technically lose a dream (expectation) ? I suppose one could say that, but I hold to the fact you can't 'lose' something you don't posses.
"Expectations" are a whole other ball of wax and deserve a whole discussion themself. They are their own demon.

I expect my wife to hang around because she tells me she enjoys my company. I didn't "win" her company any more than I "won" the friendship of my best friend from high school.

Oh really ! :) Do you remember back to the first few dates? The 'pursuit' phase ? Or maybe your relationship didn't develop like that. Our's really didn't ....some don't. But for a majority they do. Somebody 'wins' -somebody usually loses. If you are the type that sees life as a competition.

I certainly don't feel I own either of the two.
Good ! I hope this is a true, accurate and LIVED statement. :)

So the idea that fear of loss can only come from feeling we own somebody else just doesn't hold up to examination.

Again, I feel semantically incorrect, misleading. You can't 'lose' something you don't 'have'. Basic. But that's more a topic for the philosophy forum than here :)
C'mon over anytime - it's a fun place.

I also find this nonsensical. Emotions are sometimes fleeting and vaporous, lasting but a moment. At other times they can burn in the hearth of someone's heart for ages. There's no guarantee of longevity of emotion. With that in mind, to say that a short-lived emotion never existed strikes me as a bit absurd.

Again, context, not generalities. We're talking about love and respect here. We're not going to 'lose' someone's love and respect if they were truly there in the first place except through our own actions. We can 'become' unrespectable through our actions and beliefs. People can change. Same, it seems, applies to love. But that seems even harder. Many people feel a form of love for people they have known intimately and would come to their aid if necessary. But they may just not like them anymore. Now THAT sounds non-sensical LOL :) But it is what it is.

GS