emotional deadlock

[erithacus]

Hi everyone,

first of all: may 2011 bring you many happy memories and few sad ones.

I'd like to share my story with you. I'm currently in a situation where I feel like I'm slowly falling apart - and my relationship with it.

My wife and I have been together for almost three years and we have been married for almost a year now. About six months ago, she got reacquainted with an old friend of hers, J, whom she hadn't seen for a few years. My wife and J have always felt some connection and this was still very much alive. I like and respect J and we became friends quite quickly. Seeing how my wife responded to J, I encouraged them to spend some time together, as friends. So far, everyone was happy and benefiting from the new friendships. There were some negative feelings on my part, which are caused by my insecurity and triggered by J and my wife being very close physically, but this was not something I couldn't handle.

J, who is also married, and his wife, are both polyamorous. My wife and I, being new to the term, started reading up on it. At some point, J asked me if he could call my wife his "girlfriend". I agreed to this, being still in the friendship-mindset, but in retrospect I didn't really know what the implications were. After this, the situation progressed very quickly from a friendship into a (sexual) relationship.

That has been a rough ride. My insecurity started acting up. We established some boundaries (no intimacy you need condoms for). That made the situation tolerable for me. It was very clear I had to do some serious work on my insecurity issues. At the same time I had to accept the fact that my wife is polyamorous. That was not something we had talked about at all before this all started happening.

The thing I needed most was time. Time to work on myself, time to accept and digest all these events. However, my wife felt held back by this. She says she never wanted to push my boundaries (and I believe her) but it was clear she didn't like them. It came up in discussion frequently, often accompanied by the statement that they would like to go further, and if I had any idea when I would be able to set boundaries that were less strict. It was also very clear that they had a hard time not to cross them. After about two months, I decided to drop all boundaries because of this.

This resulted in spectacular drama. I really couldn't cope with the mental image of my wife having sex with another man. This wasn't improved by the fact that our sex life has been almost nonexistent last year. So, after two weeks without boundaries but with much drama, we set new ones. Temporarily (for two weeks). They would do nothing sexual at all.

That didn't work very well either. My wife felt like I was controlling her life, that I didn't allow her to be herself. She said she wanted to feel free to do what she wants. I could see that the feeling of being controlled hurt her very much and started bringing back memories of traumatic events of her past. This did her no good, so I capitulated. I offered her that again, there would be no boundaries, and I would just have to cope.

This is pretty much the status quo right now.

The big problem is that I have some unresolved childhood issues that manifest themselves very intensely at times. These issues revolve around insecurity and feeling abandoned. Right now, I feel caught between a rock and a hard place. I think I would be able to work with this whole new thing of my wife being polyamorous, if only I didn't have these old issues cropping up and turning me in to an emotionally unstable mess. On the other hand, it's very hard to work on these issues, because they are triggered so very often and I don't feel that I have a secure and stable basis to work from. I've asked my wife to go slow with this, to give me time, but then she feels controlled and not herself, which causes _her_ to go off the deep end emotionally.

What my wife and I do have is really beautiful and when we're together (emotionally) we are both happy. We love each other dearly. But more and more I fear that the pain I feel is too intense and too frequent and that I cannot start helping myself without ending this marriage first.

Thank you for listening. I'd appreciate anything you might care to share.

robin

[GroundedSpirit]

Hey Robin,

I feel for you - truly. It seems you are really doing a stand-up job in working on this - and yourself. You lay right out there that you have some 'issues' of your own that need work - as most of us do. But it's hard not to get sucked into the "problem" and lose focus on that.

Keep the focus ! :)

It's kind of like going for a drive way out in the country, blowing a tire, and having no spare. All the childhood fears of wolves and bears come roaring back. But focusing on the animals that are only in your imagination at this point and NOT focusing on what you are going to do to get out of the problem means you attract what you fear most - eventually.

Keep moving. Keep focused.
Fight predators WHEN they appear - not before. Chances are the most you will run into are squirrels.

GS

[redpepper]

hello robin, welcome to the forum. There are many ways to do poly and it is really individual. For me however and what I suggest to others is that they go at the pace of the one struggling the most. I understand that your wife feels held back so working out the pace is your best bet. Maybe this means she only has a date with this man once a week and spends two dates with you. Maybe it means that the three of you spend time together so that you can get used to his presence in your life. I don't know what would work for you, but negotiating boundaries is huge in poly. That has been my experience anyway.

I suggest that you look at some threads in the sitckies on the foundations of poly, the lessons we have learned and get an idea of how to proceed. You can do a tag search for "foundations" and "lessons" to find some good stuff. There really no need for all or nothing. A balance can be created so that you can catch up and she can feel she has some control. It seems in poly and relationships in general, that they don't survive if one person dictates what happens.

[MonoVCPHG]

But more and more I fear that the pain I feel is too intense and too frequent and that I cannot start helping myself without ending this marriage first.

Thank you for listening. I'd appreciate anything you might care to share.

robin

Perhaps this is the course you should take. The saying is, if you love something set it free. If it comes back to you...you know the rest. Maybe you need to set yourself free and see what happens. Will you come back to her? You're not going to have a conventional relationship so why hold on to that aspect if it makes you unhealthy.

Just a quick thought
Take care
Mono

[Magdlyn]

Things I have learned about being poly are: your marriage needs to be solid. You need to have a good understanding of yourself as well, and a strong ego.

Since you feel so very insecure and have abandonment issues, poly is not going to work for you if you don't feel secure in your wife's love and presence remaining constant.

Since you 2 stopped having sex only 2 years into your relationship, I'd hazard a guess your marriage isn't all that solid... what's getting in the way of your having a frequent, healthy, experimental sex life?

[erithacus]

Thank you all for reading and responding.

Our sex life has slowly diminished by my wife having severe back trouble for several months, which turned out to be a hernia. More or less at the same time she was working through some very emotional issues dealing with sexual abuse in her childhood. There was nothing wrong between us, at least not that I have been aware of. But now I feel left out, because I have given her all the time she needed to deal with her issues, and now she started having a sex life with someone which is not me. That hurts. And it doesn't make me a more secure or attractive person, I can see that.

RP, that's good advice, yes (but exactly the thing that hasn't happened). My wife has always argued vehemently against having multiple relationships, casual sex with others, or anything else outside the realm of monogamy. Now we have gone from a monogamous marriage to a full V, where she sort of demands the right to be with her boyfriend twice a week, sleep over and have sex. This all in about four months.

I know I am partly responsible for this. In the beginning, I have encouraged her to develop a friendship with her now-bf. But things progressed. She has repeatedly said she needed to be closer with him, or else she would feel controlled by me. I have, several times, said things were okay, and we would move the boundaries a great deal. She now accuses me of coming back on my word (which I do, that's true.) However, I have also have said on many occasions that things were going too fast, that I didn't feel happy or comfortable, that I needed more time. And these things haven't been heard or at least they haven't been acted upon. Not to mention the emotional upheaval, bouts of crying, arguments, which I suspect have only driven her towards her boyfriend more. Once, after a particular emotional crisis, I tried setting a strict boundary (no sexual intimacy for two weeks) but that turned out to be not acceptable nor possible for her, because she felt I was controlling her life. So I (again) didn't stand up for myself, capitulated fully, and said she could do whatever she wanted and that I would just have to cope. That was the only boundary (e.g. no boundary) she accepted at that time. I have much to learn in that respect.

So, in the end, I really feel all her attention has been focused on her relationship with her bf. And that is also the predator I have some deeply rooted issues with. Not a good combo. It still happens that almost every discussion we have revolves around her being able to see her bf. Even our therapist has seen that. It's not: 'How much time do we need to address the issues we have in our marriage', no, it is 'how much time do you need before I can have my relationship with J the way I want it'.

Maybe this is the way NRE affects her, maybe she is being selfish, maybe I am not as big a person as I would like to be. I don't know, it's all very complicated..

[GroundedSpirit]

....................
So, in the end, I really feel all her attention has been focused on her relationship with her bf. And that is also the predator I have some deeply rooted issues with. Not a good combo. It still happens that almost every discussion we have revolves around her being able to see her bf. Even our therapist has seen that. It's not: 'How much time do we need to address the issues we have in our marriage', no, it is 'how much time do you need before I can have my relationship with J the way I want it'.

Maybe this is the way NRE affects her, maybe she is being selfish, maybe I am not as big a person as I would like to be. I don't know, it's all very complicated..

I think you need to just be honest - if possible in a non-confrontational way.
I think she is acting selfishly, but may not be aware of the extent of it.
So ask ........"what about US ??" "Where do 'we' and 'I' in general fit into this. " "I want you to be happy and help you get what you need (if possible) but what about ME" ? "This can't be all one sided."

It's a legitimate question.

How much is NRE, how much is about this new found confidence she may be feeling, you never know. But it's only fair to remind her - and everyone - that it's cruel to just go wild and not realize or acknowledge the effects your actions can have. That's NOT building a better model !

Try to remind her to take time - and a deep breath - and look at the big picture. If she refuses, or is incapable, well.............that's important information in itself. Then draw your own conclusions and act accordingly.

Please keep us posted.

GS

[erithacus]

Hi GS,

currently I have sort of hijacked the situation by stating that if she does not put her relationship with J on hold, I want us to live in separate places for a while. She has agreed to not seeing him for three weeks. That gives us some time to figure things out.

We're now trying to get clear what our needs and wants are. I think it'll be very useful to compare those and see whether or not they are compatible. For both of us it's hard to figure out what we actually need and want, and to specify that clearly. I mean, she has already told me that she wants to have sex with J and that it might become a need eventually, but if "eventually" turns out to mean "in two weeks" I think we're through quite quickly.

Thanks for reading. Sharing helps, even though it's probably a very mixed up story on the receiving end ;)

robin

[dragonflysky]

.......
That didn't work very well either. My wife felt like I was controlling her life, that I didn't allow her to be herself. She said she wanted to feel free to do what she wants. I could see that the feeling of being controlled hurt her very much and started bringing back memories of traumatic events of her past. This did her no good, so I capitulated.......

The big problem is that I have some unresolved childhood issues that manifest themselves very intensely at times. These issues revolve around insecurity and feeling abandoned. Right now, I feel caught between a rock and a hard place. I think I would be able to work with this whole new thing of my wife being polyamorous, if only I didn't have these old issues cropping up and turning me in to an emotionally unstable mess. On the other hand, it's very hard to work on these issues, because they are triggered so very often and I don't feel that I have a secure and stable basis to work from. I've asked my wife to go slow with this, to give me time, but then she feels controlled and not herself, which causes _her_ to go off the deep end emotionally......
robin

I think you BOTH have some more healing work to do before you become involved in a healthy polyamorous relationship(s)! I've worked with many sexual abuse survivors who feel like any boundaries or limits set are "controlling" after so many years of them feeling powerless over what happens in their lives. It's almost at the exact opposite end of the continuum of "Power/Control-Personal Empowerment-Powerlessness". It's still a "re-active" response to life. The same is true for many individuals healing from abandonment issues.

Both sexual abuse issues and issues of abandonment tend to fall in the psychological realm of the development of "Autonomy and Intimacy". Health and healing is a balance of being comfortable with Autonomy (feeling capable, confident and secure with one's "Self") and Intimacy (feeling capable, confident and secure in connecting with an "Other(s)"). You might want to ask your therapist about some of this if it hasn't already been discussed. I wish you both well in what can be a challenging healing journey.

[redpepper]

To me when someone doesn't respect the needs of a partner, have integrity and compassion or isn't communicating effectively, then it is essentially cheating with everyone knowing.

There are foundations to build on in poly that really do work. Check out the thread on poly foundations and lessons learned (in the stickies)... many people have put input there and none of it has been that a person has the right and had super success in just doing whatever they want at the expense of another. There are some people who practice poly who do whatever and tell partners that they just have to deal with the ramification of their actions because they are free and have the right to do as they will... that is fine, but when a relationship starts out monogamously and turns into poly I have not known this to work with high success rates.

The two of you made a mono commitment to each other. You are still in that and transitioning out of it... it should go at your pace and if she is wise and still wants you as a partner, she will do so and be happy to give you the time, space and conversations that you need.... this leads me to wonder if she really does want to be in a relationship with you. What are your goals, are they common to each other, do you value the same thing, are you willing to build a foundation with each other or does she want to be a single poly person from now on...? you have lots to talk about in three weeks. I hope she uses the time and doesn't spend it pining for the bf she is not hanging out with... that could be a real possibility in terms of what happens in the next three weeks..

[erithacus]

Hi RP,

thank you again for your reply. Yes, I have read (and am reading again) those threads. All the comments and doubts I read in response to my posts are all very valid and I feel most of them too. And all the good advice has not been wasted on me, either. But I'll have to find a way to make sure she sees how she has behaving. Thankfully I get a lot of support from a few friends and parents (both mine and hers) but that also makes it even harder on her: she has become the black sheep that is endangering our marriage (which she is, if you'd ask me) but everyone telling her so isn't helping her to turn around. It might even be forcing her even more into the self-righteous viewpoint that she has the right to do this and that I should not control her by setting boundaries.

Ah well, we'll see how it works out.

robin

[redpepper]

that's tough. I would react the same way if everyone were seemingly ganging up on me. Is there any chance she can do some reading here? We are all in this together and really, most people have the same struggles starting out.. it's a matter of getting through it and coming out the other side... no one here has an invested interest in her seeing things differently, so perhaps it would be more of a reality check for her.

If she isn't comfortable posting she can PM. I am willing to be there if she needs an ear to bend. Sometimes someone to talk to really helps... and I do get where SHE is coming from. She is not alone on this journey, there are many people here who will understand and be confidential if she needs to speak freely but in private.

[erithacus]

If she isn't comfortable posting she can PM. I am willing to be there if she needs an ear to bend. Sometimes someone to talk to really helps... and I do get where SHE is coming from. She is not alone on this journey, there are many people here who will understand and be confidential if she needs to speak freely but in private.

RP, thank you for the kind offer. I'll make sure to let her know.

[Joyce]

Hi there..

the post Redpepper made today on this thread I saw in my mail-box a few hours ago.
So, here I am: the girl (wife) Robin has been talking about.

:)

Nice to meet you all.

And ehm, thanks for letting me know it's ok. to do some reading here. Actually, I found myself very curious and wanted to read the posts Robin wrote lately. But didn't want to make him feel unsafe in his new way of finding some support. It's funny that it turns out to be fine to do some reading anyhow.

I have decided to not directly react to the things Robin wrote. I'm sure to do some posts when I feel ready.

I will do the best I can writing understandable english. Please let me know when things aren't clear.

Anyway. The sun is shining for the first time this year. Spring is coming. Trust is moving towards me in a slow pace.
I truly hope that the sun will lighten our hearts and give everyone the strength to look ourselves in the eye, be honest, and finally to look at the bright side of life.

Always walk on the sunny side of the street. :)

Joyce

[redpepper]

Nice to hear from you Joyce. It's always helpful to get both sides of a story... welcome and take your time here.... there is no rush and no obligation.:)

[Joyce]

Thank you for the warm welcome. Reading all the stories and posts makes me feel more and more confident that we can manage to find a way that works for us all. :)

[LovingRadiance]

Joyce/ Robin:

May I give a suggestion from my heart?

(Joyce, I know Robin has read a recent thread about my situation, please feel free to also or ask me questions if you'd like to know ;) )

I find that sometimes "boundary lists" are created with one person thinking "this is all I can handle" and the other person thinking "this won't be enough for me".

Both are probably correct AT THIS MOMENT.

But-a boundary list doesn't have to be a "forever it stays this way document".

Would it be possible for each of you to make your own lists-then come together with a "suggested time schedule" for getting from one to the other?

Example:

"no sex that requires condoms" is one end of the spectrum "unprotected sex" the other.

Can you lay it out with what goes between AND put a schedule to when each level will be reached so that instead of jumping from "nothing" to "everything" (and back again) as emotions surge,

you can take it one step at a time?

AND

dates

What I hear (which could be wrong so bare with me) is Robin saying that he feels as though you have date nights with J but he's lacking time with you.

Can the two of you schedule 2 date nights with each other each week also?

One thing I pictured as an optimal scenario for me was being able to have from 4pm on one night until noon the next with BF, then having from 4pm-noon with DH.

The other thing which seems to REALLY help is to schedule "reconnect time" for the 2-4 hours after a date with BF. That time is devoted to spending with Maca-NOT talking about my date; but talking about US. We might take a bath, share back rubs, go for a walk or a drive, something we can do together and talk also (not a movie). That way we can reconnect and there isn't the sense that I went on a date and "disappeared" from our life.


....

I posted a couple days ago about schedules for building relationships, privileges to go along with that etc.

If you want an example to work from you might check out my blog. The address is in my signature.

Also the book "Opening Up" has a LOT LOT LOT of suggestions on things to consider when trying to create a PRODUCTIVE boundary list. ;)

[Joyce]

I feel free to react on this post, because it is also addressed to me. I'm not sure if it is ok. because it is Robin's thread.. I'm not sure how the policy is of two people involved posting in the same thread. But I begin to think that isn't a problem at all..?
" May I give a suggestion from my heart?"

- Of course, those are the best, aren't they?

" (Joyce, I know Robin has read a recent thread about my situation, please feel free to also or ask me questions if you'd like to know ;) )

I find that sometimes "boundary lists" are created with one person thinking "this is all I can handle" and the other person thinking "this won't be enough for me". "

- I think you are right by the boundary list thing.. In my experience Robin and I both felt unseen by making a compromise in the boundary list.

" Both are probably correct AT THIS MOMENT. "

- For ourselves the lists are correct, but maybe they are not for each other.. I'm not sure about that because we aren't working on the boundary lists.

" But-a boundary list doesn't have to be a "forever it stays this way document". "

- Well.. I did hold on to the idea of that things will change. I begin to wonder if that's why Robin felt rushed and pushed.

" Would it be possible for each of you to make your own lists-then come together with a "suggested time schedule" for getting from one to the other? "

- That sounds like a wonderful idea. It sounds like something we were trying to do. The conflict we found ourselves in a few weeks ago was that Robin found out he stretched his boundaries to far. So he started to pull them back. I got scared that in the end he didn't want the whole love more than one person thing. I felt treated dishonest because I did everything we could think of to make it work. The dating nights, and talk talk talk about everything, reconnect to each other, read the books, make good plans, take our dynamic life to the therapist, etc.
Now I can see that the moment I felt angry was that I lost my patience and understanding for Robin. But of course that was his problem, because I felt exactly the same. Another thing that made me even more angry were the people in our environment that told me that I should stop it all because it would kill our marriage. I felt so judged and unseen, that the angry feeling stayed.
Right now I am afraid of Robin making the same mistake by taking a compromise to the negotiation table, and then I start to compromise of course. I don't want that to happen.. That's why I'm a little afraid of the suggestions you did. Because it sounds like the right thing to do. But the right things to do turns out the be the wrong things two weeks later. :( And then I feel angry again.

I will talk it through with Robin in the evening. :) I can write more, but I'm running out of time.

[LovingRadiance]

That sounds a lot like where we're at right now Joyce.

Ironically,
I'm the poly one with a boyfriend.
BUT-now that Maca is "trying" it became evident that I never considered my needs in regards to how we move forward.

So when the question of using our room came up I just capitulated, without even considering the implications to myself or to Maca and my relationship.

THEN a few days later, it really clicked for me that this "compromise" wasn't just going to mess with my head, it was going to actively create negative problems in our relationship. So I put my foot down.

Not really a healthy way to handle it. I should have looked at my needs, the request, considered it thoroughly and then sat down to discuss with Maca what options there were to get his needs met without overstepping mine.

We actually got to that point last night. But,

that was why I felt compelled to say something to you two. It sounded like MORE of a misinterpretation between the two of you, ie not grasping the time frames that might make the change/learning/growth more feasible and functional; less like an actual inabillity to work together.

:)

Good luck to you both.

[Joyce]

It's a very good thing to discuss things, if you're expecting that it will mess with your head the other way. But how do you manage to don't let it happen that Maca feels pushed by your needs? I really need to figure that one out..

Thanks a lot for saying the things you said. I will read it again when I know a bit more about the reason it didn't work..
I really hope that is a time thing.

Good luck.

[LovingRadiance]

Maca's whole world was destroyed by my needs.

But-how I avoid that now is that I don't push.

I try to find the small steps that lead in a direction.

For example, with dating,

(I don't have an overnight with my bf)

We've agreed that a datenight every week or two works for now.
Working towards one a week.

That's not what I'd like to see it as, but it's more than what I had before; so it's a fair starting point.

Maca knows it's not fulfilling my needs-so he continues to work towards giving me more.


OR

affection in front of him.

I'd like to just "do what's comfortable". But nothing is comfortable to him.

So it started with just a hug goodnight.
Now we've added in hugs anytime and periodically those hugs are "holding each other" for several minutes as we talk.
We've also added kisses to the goodnight hug.

One little babystep at a time.


We started the polyamory trail September 25th 2009.
It's a rough road to start down when dealing with insecurities and jealousy...

[Joyce]

"One little babystep at a time. "

Hmm...

I definitely need to work on my patience. :) Haha. :D

[redpepper]

Joyce, forgive me if I have repeated myself... on this thread anyways... I do repeat myself on this one a lot, but there are some really great threads on here about creating a poly foundation and what lessons some of us have learned having done this for awhile... you can find them by doing a tag search and typing in "foundations" or "lessons" I have found them really helpful. Maybe you will too.

[polyexplorer]

Hi Robin and Joyce,

It sounds like a roller coaster ride for the two of you! I wish you the very best...

In reading your posts I haven't heard much about Joyce's boyfriend, but from what is present, I have to be honest and say that I'm disappointed in him. He is married, you are both married. If I was considering a married woman for myself as a girlfriend, I would want to go out of my way to make sure that her relationship with her husband is strong and that they are both comfortable with a possible new relationship entering into the dynamic.

Without knowing details, it does not seem like he has been doing very much to ensure that you are both in a good place to allow this relationship to continue. He has some responsibility in all this too...

[Joyce]

A quick reply.

In my experience J. always did the best he could to understand and support us. The beautiful thing here is that J. once was in the same position Robin is in now. They really seem to understand each other and became friends too. :)

J. always support the choices we make. And right now, for example, he respects the choice we made about me not seeing J. for a while. He never meant to destroy our marriage, and in my optimistic opinion that is not going to happen either.

I think in this case I am the one who was very enthousiastic... Currently I'm trying to lead that enthousiasm in the right direction. :)

[polyexplorer]

Thanks for the clarification Joyce... it does sound like J is supportive...

I know that for me, I would want to be having an honest conversation with the married partner of a woman I was considering to become a girlfriend. And if I saw the rollercoaster ride happening that seems to have been happening with the two of you, I would want to apologize to the other guy for the pain caused and offer any way of helping the situation that I can rather than just leaving it to the two of you to sort it out and then jumping right in when a green light is given.

That's just me anyway...

Maybe J is being more supportive than the perspective that the posts here have been giving, and a question I have for Robin is whether he feels like J is doing all he can to ensure that the two of you are OK...

[Joyce]

I think it's the best if Robin tells us something about his experience. He knows it the best of course.

Very soon J. will join us here at the poly-forum. He told me (after getting told that it was ok. to do some reading here) that he is creating an acount.
He thought it was a good thing to read more. :)

[polyexplorer]

That sounds good... I hope that being on here is helpful to all you... it certainly seems like you are all working hard to make it work...

[erithacus]

Hi polyexplorer,

I have mixed feelings about it. On the one hand, we do talk sometimes, and he always says he understands me. There is definitely a level of trust and friendship between us. That's good, because it means there's something to build on.

On the other hand, I do not feel supported. He might understand, but his actions haven't shown much consideration. But then again, I haven't been communicating my needs too well, and if even Joyce failed to read between the lines, I can't really expect him to manage that. Or can I? Like I said: mixed feelings.

A big part of the problem is that on the occasions we talked I have communicated rationally that things were okay. Not only to him, also to Joyce. Much less frequent I have communicated rationally that things were not okay. Most of the signs that things were not okay were emotional: bouts of crying, bad dreams, bad moods, needing distance between Joyce and myself. I once told Joyce that she should listen to what I said, not what happened when we would have major drama. So she did. But I think because of this too many of the emotional signs got ignored. And I think J followed Joyce's lead in this.

It's actually quite simple. There's a very big communication FAIL that has been going on for some time. But we're working on that now, and I'm slowly getting back my belief that we can actually do this. :)

Robin

[erithacus]

That sounds good... I hope that being on here is helpful to all you... it certainly seems like you are all working hard to make it work...

Yes, it's helping a LOT! Thank you all :)

[polyexplorer]

Hi Robin,

I really appreciate your awareness around the confused communication...

I am in a situation where my wife has been struggling with the concept of poly and one minute she expresses that she wants me to be in another relationship and the next minute her emotions show me that she is not coping. She struggles to be honest and open about her needs and desires. This does make things more difficult for everyone...

However, the other person involved who I have a deep connection with cannot pursue that connection when she knows my wife is hurting as a result. Even if I wanted to pursue the connection, she wouldn't. I admire this in her and I know my wife feels supported by her (sometimes more supported by her than by me!! - but I'm working on that one!!)

I appreciate that you want this to work and that is good... Let it take whatever time it takes. While each involved still has hope, there is hope! Trust the timing that it will be the right timing...

[erithacus]

Hi Robin,
I really appreciate your awareness around the confused communication...

Thank you. It has taken us some time to see this and the role it has played and is playing. But we do have a handle on where exactly things are going wrong, now, and I'm glad for that.

I am in a situation where my wife has been struggling with the concept of poly and one minute she expresses that she wants me to be in another relationship and the next minute her emotions show me that she is not coping. She struggles to be honest and open about her needs and desires. This does make things more difficult for everyone...

In what context do you use the word "honest" here? I have been accused of not being "honest" and while I may not have known my exact thoughts and deepest feelings at the moment, that does not mean that I was dishonest if, at a later time, I get a better picture of myself.

It sounds like your wife has the same thing as I do: rationally she agrees but emotionally she isn't ready yet. There's two different levels of communication. Is that true? How do you handle that?

However, the other person involved who I have a deep connection with cannot pursue that connection when she knows my wife is hurting as a result. Even if I wanted to pursue the connection, she wouldn't. I admire this in her and I know my wife feels supported by her (sometimes more supported by her than by me!! - but I'm working on that one!!)

Yes, that's admirable indeed! And more likely to get the three of you anywhere then when she would be indifferent to your wife's needs.

I recognize some of your wife's feelings of sometimes being more supported by her then by you. It's hard to feel supported by someone who wants to do something that is scaring or hurting you. Some people in my social circle say that that in itself is not supportive. But I disagree. While it is not _protective_, it can be supportive. It's a delicate balance. When you protect someone too much, you aren't getting anywhere, but when you're pushing them too hard or too fast, you aren't getting anywhere either.

If J would say: "Hey, I can see this is hard for you, let's stop." I'd feel better, because I would feel safe. For now. But it's not a viable long-term solution to anything. So I'm not upset because this is happening (I know I need a good kick in the @(*&* now and then) but I'm upset because it is happening too fast. Or I should say: has been happening. We're definitely on a track where we can go at slower pace. That alone is making me feel much better already.

I appreciate that you want this to work and that is good... Let it take whatever time it takes. While each involved still has hope, there is hope! Trust the timing that it will be the right timing...

Yeah, trust and timing: key words of 2011 :)

Regards,

Robin

[Rachelina]

It sounds like your wife has the same thing as I do: rationally she agrees but emotionally she isn't ready yet. There's two different levels of communication. Is that true? How do you handle that?


I was also in this position when I first joined this forum: rationally I believed that accepting my husband's girlfriend was the right thing to do, but emotionally I couldn't handle it. Over several months things have slowly changed and now I do accept it emotionally (though I still do get occasional attacks of jealousy). Some of the things that helped me were: lots and lots of talking about it, getting to know his girlfriend and seeing that she is not a threat, spending a lot of time reading on this forum, and a lot of introspection on my part (i.e. facing my own insecurities). But the most important thing was just giving it time. It's such a radical change that you can't accept it overnight but I think if you do the necessary work AND give it plenty of time, then there's a good chance that you will accept it eventually.

My advice to your wife would be to give you lots of love, gratitude and reassurance. When I saw that my husband having this girlfriend was making our marriage better rather than worse, it made it a lot easier to accept her. Best wishes to you both!

[MonoVCPHG]

However, the other person involved who I have a deep connection with cannot pursue that connection when she knows my wife is hurting as a result. Even if I wanted to pursue the connection, she wouldn't. I admire this in her and I know my wife feels supported by her (sometimes more supported by her than by me!! - but I'm working on that one!!)

..

I love hearing about this type of concern in potential new partners. It is this kind of extended consideration to your wife that could possibly carry over to make her an excellent metamour for your wife. Hats off to her!

[redpepper]

Really good stuff! I really love reading peoples process in poly when its about consideration/empathy for others, respect, attempts at bettering communication. Really good foundations being establishedit seems. The makings of a great relationship dynamic I think. :) Thanks for including us in that by making yourself vulnerable and talking about it here.

[LovingRadiance]

But then again, I haven't been communicating my needs too well, and if even Joyce failed to read between the lines, I can't really expect him to manage that. Or can I?

Nope, you can't.

But-not "just because".

The reason is that it's unrealistic in any situation to EXPECT someone to manage to read your mind. Sometimes a person will manage it-but expecting it is setting yourself and the other person up for a failure.

The key to ensuring that "miscommunication" is kept to a minimum, is ensuring that you clearly and succinctly state what you need, what you feel, what you are trying to express.
Sometimes that is a pain in the ass. I'm not unaware of that one! I think we ALL fail at times.
Sometimes I WANT one or the other of the guys to just KNOW what I'm feeling. After 18 years with one and 13 with the other "damn it-can't you just KNOW me?!?!?!"

But the truth is-that we're each individuals and sometimes we can see what the other needs without being told, sometimes we don't.

Hugs-you sound like you are reallly working on yourself-that's awesome! (all of you).

[redpepper]

Nope, you can't.

But-not "just because".

The reason is that it's unrealistic in any situation to EXPECT someone to manage to read your mind. Sometimes a person will manage it-but expecting it is setting yourself and the other person up for a failure.

The key to ensuring that "miscommunication" is kept to a minimum, is ensuring that you clearly and succinctly state what you need, what you feel, what you are trying to express.
Sometimes that is a pain in the ass. I'm not unaware of that one! I think we ALL fail at times.
Sometimes I WANT one or the other of the guys to just KNOW what I'm feeling. After 18 years with one and 13 with the other "damn it-can't you just KNOW me?!?!?!"

But the truth is-that we're each individuals and sometimes we can see what the other needs without being told, sometimes we don't.

Hugs-you sound like you are reallly working on yourself-that's awesome! (all of you).the problem is that we all have our own shit to navigate through... expecting others to understand every subtle nuance is just not realistic. I barely know myself let alone others... if a person tells me about themselves every time they learn something new then I have a better chance at guessing. I still need their prompts though really. I am never going to get it entirely... I like to tell people exactly what I require to feel like my needs are met, the moment I know myself. I say it with humour and with the understanding all around that if they can't give me what I require then I have to be okay with that... in turn I give what I can too, when I am told what that is. A lot of the time people are passive about asking. I don't do well with that. I do much better with someone saying, "RP, please do this for me so that I can feel this?" Then I can either get on it or tell them that I will be able to next week, or I can do it now and then do it, or that I can't do that for them and why... if I know why that is... otherwise I will buy some time and get back to them. I find this works really well to feeling satisfied in life. When people don't tell me how they feel and what they require to get their needs met then I don't sweat it and leave it in their court. I figure that they can learn by example, because I will be requesting of them soon enough.

[polyexplorer]

Thanks Robin for your comments...

You make a really good point about honesty. I hadn't thought of it this way. You are right, you are being honest - as honest as you can with what you know of yourself at that time. My wife is the same. She is being as honest as she can with what she knows of herself at that time...

It is not easy coping with a situation where you rationally agree but emotionally struggle. Being open about your feelings is helpful. I want to know how my wife feels, but I also don't want her to necessarily project her feelings on to me to fix it. For example, I'm feeling jealous so you have to do something to fix it. Being open about how you are feeling is important and then discussing the implications of what this means and what you need in all of this.

Also, as has been mentioned many times, time does amazing things too...

Thanks too Mono for your words. I agree that the kind of consideration that has been shown has been inspiring to me too...