Help! I'm struggling as my mono marriage of 20 years is turning poly

[Polymonial]

My wife and I have been happily married for almost 20 years, we have two kids, and we've been best friends (as well as lovers) since the day we met. Just over a week ago, I found out that she's bi (she only realized this herself about 7 months ago), that she fell in love with another woman, that she still loves me just as much as always, and that she wants a polyamorous "vee" relationship between the three of us.

I'm a hopeless mono, and for the past week, my whole world has been shattered. I love my wife and want to stay with her, but I can't stand the thought of sharing her with someone else. I feel hurt, betrayed, taken advantage of, that this is a one-sided relationship, unequal, unfair, ... At the same time, I can tell that this is something she's been missing, and that she is so much more vibrant, self-confident, and alive now. I love how happy she is, and I love that she still loves me just as much (if not more) than before.

I'm going to give it a try, but ultimately I don't know if I'm capable of pulling it off. I wonder to myself, as a mono in a "poly/mono vee" relationship:

1. Do the hurt feelings ever go away? Have any monos in this group ever made it through successfully to being completely happy in this type of relationship, or am I doomed to a life of hurt feelings if I stay?

2. Can I change myself into a poly (or at least to feel good about being in a poly relationship) by using, for example, a 12-step behavior modification approach to retrain my thinking and feelings? Has anyone done this successfully? Or would I just be bottling up my emotions and setting the relationship up for failure?

3. Should I try going "full poly", i.e. fully embrace the poly lifestyle, invite additional partners, maybe even turn our "vee" into an "N" with my own secondary (or even a new primary) to balance the one-sidedness of this relationship? *Or would this just be emotional, reactionary, and destructive?

4. What other support groups would you recommend I reach out to for help?

5. What other advise do you have for me?

Thank you for any help or support you may have.

[redpepper]

1. Do the hurt feelings ever go away? Have any monos in this group ever made it through successfully to being completely happy in this type of relationship, or am I doomed to a life of hurt feelings if I stay?

2. Can I change myself into a poly (or at least to feel good about being in a poly relationship) by using, for example, a 12-step behavior modification approach to retrain my thinking and feelings? Has anyone done this successfully? Or would I just be bottling up my emotions and setting the relationship up for failure?

3. Should I try going "full poly", i.e. fully embrace the poly lifestyle, invite additional partners, maybe even turn our "vee" into an "N" with my own secondary (or even a new primary) to balance the one-sidedness of this relationship? *Or would this just be emotional, reactionary, and destructive?

4. What other support groups would you recommend I reach out to for help?

5. What other advise do you have for me?
1.yes they go away or at least lesson, but not without a huge change in thinking and perspective and a huge amount of work. good news is that if you are up for it you might just come out with a stronger relationship and a better understanding of yourself.

2.there is no quick answer to this. You might be poly yourself, but its early days yet and you by no means have to be or are expected to be.

3.emotionally reactive and destructive. Give it time my friend... lots of time and educate yourself first.

4. and 5.you have come to a really good site, use it.... start searching in the tags and stickies here and find some information and support. Thanks for starting the process of asking questions. That is a good start... your partner should be doing the same thing, because cheating is not poly...! She has not acted with love in her heart, but out of selfishness. No worries, a lot of people do, but it is time to readjust and get on a better path with you at her side... she has a lot more work to do than you. I suggest she start educating herself MORE.

[MonoVCPHG]

1. Do the hurt feelings ever go away? Have any monos in this group ever made it through successfully to being completely happy in this type of relationship, or am I doomed to a life of hurt feelings if I stay?

Poly is not the source of your pain here my friend. Being betrayed, kept in the dark and made to feel a fool are. You're wife had an affair first and came out as poly second if I read your post correctly. You need to deal with the affair. Couples counselling perhaps. If you don't get over her betrayal, you may as well forget about ever being healthy in a V. Sure you could stay in the relationship, full of resentment and feeling half the man you once were, but that is no way to live; better to be on your own IMO.
This means she has to own up to her betrayal and be willing to do the work too...otherwise she might not be as poly as she says she is. By this I mean that it could be easier for her to claim to still be in love with you so the external conditions of her life do not change. Would you be happy in the role of safety blanket/financial support,/homecare. Challenge her to work with you.


2. Can I change myself into a poly (or at least to feel good about being in a poly relationship) by using, for example, a 12-step behavior modification approach to retrain my thinking and feelings? Has anyone done this successfully? Or would I just be bottling up my emotions and setting the relationship up for failure?


Opinions will be varied on this question. Here's my take: if your mono wired, (not saying you are...some people are conditioned mono) you only have intimate/romantic attachment to one at a time. If you push it you may run the risk of replacing your wife. Is she willing to take that chance? Are you?
I considered this when I first fell in love with Redpepper...then I realized that going down a path to attempt altering who I fundamentally was was a path that would likely lead to damaging myself and undoing the self awareness work I had spent a lifetime accomplishing. I am more mono now than ever and I am happy and healthy with my married poly girlfriend :)
I think this answered question 3 too.


Other opinions.....be true to yourself, stay healthy and don't be a afraid to hurt more to be in pain less.

Take care
Mono

[vodkafan]

I agree with Mono that a lot of your hurt is caused by the fallout of the affair.
You and her and even to a small extent her new friend will need to work through that. I was in a similar position to you. I made the decision to consciously forgive my wife within the first few days of our Vee starting up. Otherwise I knew I would not have been able to function day to day with her at all, and we had to protect the kids too at the beginning. But it was very hard. Hurt and anger used to come out when I did not want it to.
She used to seem very hard to me at times even when she insisted she was vulnerable and needed to be understood.
This will take everything of you and you will feel used up sometimes.

About question 2, I would not try to force yourself to try to be poly. If you had wanted to be poly in the last 20 years you would already know about it. Why add more shit to the top of your pile? See how things go first. Give yourself time.
Actually a Vee has its own symmetry and balance. You may feel it is unfair at the moment, that she is "having her cake and eating it." It is almost certainly more difficult for her right now than you realise. She is not trying to hurt you.
You are in a process now. One day you will wake up and realise you are actually happy and its all OK.

[Magdlyn]

My wife and I have been happily married for almost 20 years, we have two kids, and we've been best friends (as well as lovers) since the day we met. Just over a week ago, I found out that she's bi (she only realized this herself about 7 months ago), that she fell in love with another woman, that she still loves me just as much as always, and that she wants a polyamorous "vee" relationship between the three of us.

I read this as the wife is in love, but has not necessarily consummated the relationship yet. It would be nice to get some clarification.

I feel bad for your wife coming to terms with her bisexuality at such a late date. It's obviously hard on both of you. But this is rather common. Cultural conditioning can make us blind to our bi urges. Denial can be very strong.




4. What other support groups would you recommend I reach out to for help?

5. What other advise do you have for me?

Thank you for any help or support you may have.

I went to a polyamory conference called Transcending Boundaries last year and attended a session led by Anita Wagner. Her website has some great information on opening a formerly monogamous relationship, and she provides lots of info on how the mono, especially, can come to terms and even enjoy their poly partner's new life. You might find her speaking at a conference near you, and want to go.

http://practicalpolyamory.blogspot.com/?zx=7b9e90cc1e435fa4

Look at the upper left corner of the main page, go to Practical Polyamory Website, and click on Downloadable Relationship Skills and Activism-Related Documents. There you will find such guidelines as Lemons and Lemonade: The Pleasure and Pain of Poly/Mono Relationships; and 14 Steps to Opening a Monogamous Relationship.

[Krazykitty]

I'm a total neophyte and can't probably offer much, but 3) type thoughts and plans helped me a lot when my husband asked for us to be polyamorous for freaking ever ago. (Don't let it take you as long as it took me though to process things lol jk). I thought about 3) ideas a lot and found that there were many attractions to others that I'd simply repressed because of thinking our relationship was monolithically monogamous. Going after those that I've been attracted to took the pain/sting out of my husband wanting to go after people he's attracted to. Like i said though, it can be done much much quicker than I've done it (one year of thinking and processing) best of luck.

[Polymonial]

Thank you so much for all the kind words and support. It's all been extremely helpful! I've been following up on all the links, references, papers... reading a lot on the subject, including the book Opening Up (since I can get it in Kindle format and read it w/o others knowing what it is :-). I'm also discovering that polyamory is a lot more common than I ever imagined... a good friend of mine is openly polyamorous, and apparently he knows of a bunch more friends of mine that are as well... but aren't open about it yes.

So... here's the latest status for the three of us (me, my wife, and her OSO in a vee relationship):

1. From the beginning, I've felt compersion for my wife in: (1) discovering her full sexuality (being bi), (2) falling in love with another woman, and (3) being much more complete, happy, alive in the process. It is wonderful to see. I still feel that way.

2. All three of us get along spectacularly, plus my wife's OSO gets along great with our kids. She (the OSO) will be moving in with us as soon as possible, and we have all accepted her into the family as a full, equal member. In fact, we are all committed to each other that this will be a lifelong partnership... not just for a few years, but a long-term, committed relationship. I have a very good feeling about this.

3. All three of us have had various jealousies towards the others from time to time, but we always talk them through and work them out.

4. My biggest issue is basically having to split my time with my wife. Since she now has two partners, I'll only have half the time with her than I used to have, and I mourn that loss. At the same time, I recognize that my wife is now a different person, that there's no going back (at least not on the fact that she's bi and has a need for two partners in her life... one male and one female). We are consciously starting a new relationship with each other (my wife and I, to be specific), and as such, started dating again, romancing each other, ... and honestly, we're having some WILD NRE between us right now (after 17 year of marriage). It's wonderful. At the same time, I've also had a few bouts of depression, where I mourn our loss of time together and change in the relationship, from being two peas in a pod (<-- as Forest would say) to, well... I guess the analogy breaks down. Two pods, perhaps, with one of the peas in each pod? You know what I mean! ;-)

5. As a new poly couple, I would also like to bring in an OSO of my own. Of course, the key is to find just the right person - someone who gets along great with all of us, who loves kids (and would even like to have another), large families... it could be epic wonderful. We could either do this as an "N", in which my wife and I are married and each have an OSO, or we could even consider having my wife re-marry her OSO, I re-marry my OSO, and we're then two couples bound together in a poly relationship. In fact, that arrangement has several advantages, including: (1) medical insurance (two married couples instead of just one, so more sharing of benefits), (2) better acceptance (since my OSO would be married with children, easier on her parents, friends, etc.), etc.

Ok... so now, here's our latest issue. My wife gave me permission to start dating (so long as I don't go any farther than kissing without getting permission from the vee, which is only fair). However, once I started dating, it caught her off guard and she got very jealous and started having strong mono feelings/reactions herself. She fears that I would fall in love with an OSO so deeply that I would end up leaving her, or that she would no longer be my primary. She's fears that I would have even less time to spend with her (since our time together has already been split in half due to her taking on her OSO). My wife is jealous that my OSO may be younger (which is likely in order to have kids together), that I would be romancing her, that she may enjoy doing activities with me that my wife doesn't (e.g. hiking, etc.), etc.

Therefore, even though my wife was the original poly in our relationship, I recognize that she's having very mono emotions, and I'm being very sensitive to her feelings. I'm going through the "Fourteen Steps to Opening a Monogamous Relationship" with her (even through she's already has an OSO of her own). I'm letting her know that this is something that I need. That it doesn't lessen my relationship or love for her at all... I still love her with all my heart, that my love for her is unconditional, and nothing will ever take that away. That she is not powerless in this process, and no one can be added to our family without permission from everyone. That I'm not doing this for a fling but rather only want an OSO that gets along with the entire family and would be committed/dedicated to a long-term/lifelong relationship. That we (my wife and I) will continue to be romantic together, go on dates, and have great fun and love together, even when I have an OSO (and have similar experiences with her too). And that we can slow down and put my dating on hold for awhile, to give her the time, space, love, and support that she needs to feel more comfortable with this.

When I resume dating (a few months from now), my wife is asking for a LOT of visibility into who I'm seeing. Specifically:

1. If I put up a profile on a dating website, she wants access to read it, and she doesn't want me using a photo of myself that's easily recognizable.

2. For each person that I start talking to electronically, she wants a link to their profile. She's very concerned about me inadvertently meeting an axe murderer that wants to off us all.

3. She has lots of questions like: why did you pick that person to talk to? what is it about her? is THAT the type of person that you like, someone younger, etc. And then comparing herself against them.

Honestly, I don't mind telling my wife who I'm talking with or dating once I've been able to establish a little rapport with that person, for example, after a week or so. But I'm very uncomfortable talking about each and every person before I have any rapport... that just seems too early and disruptive to the dating process, especially if my wife gets jealous each and every time. I'm also admittedly uncomfortable with my wife reading through my dating profile or telling her which dating websites I'm on, not because there's anything bad on them, but because I need a little bit of space to myself on this. And ultimately, if/when I find someone, I'll let my wife know all about her.

My questions to this group are:

1. How much transparency in dating is good vs. excessive / too-much-information?

2. When is the appropriate time to tell my wife about someone I'm interested in talking to (as a potential date): (a) before I even meet/speak to the person, (b) after I've said "Hello" but before she responds with her own "Hello", (c) after we've both said "Hello" to each other but before we actually carry on a conversation, (d) once we've officially met but before we know each other, (e) once we've established a rapport with each other and want to start getting to know one another, (f) once we've had kids together, etc.

3. Is it reasonable for me to have my own space, at least in the early stages of dating / getting to know people without my wife being involved at every step? Or is it important that she knows everything about everyone at all times, even in the earliest stages of meeting someone, so that she feels comfortable, empowered, and we can address any issues of fear, jealousy, concern, etc. that may arise right away, head on?

4. What other advise do you have for me in starting the dating process?

As always, thank you for all the wonderful advise I've received from this group and warm support as we build our poly family, which I believe will be great.

[nycindie]

A bit of a double standard she wants, I think.

[NeonKaos]

are all these rules being set up in order to facilitate communication and be pro-active about "addressing issues", or are they being set up to put you in a position where you can't do right no matter how hard you try?

A lot of your "rules" sound like they are set up for pre-emptive failure.

[Polymonial]

My wife says that she would be very happy for me to have an OSO, but she's freaked out about the DATING process. In her heart of hearts, she wants me to find my OSO by accident (the same way she found hers), as a true love at first sight unavoidable sparks flying everywhere kind of event. For that, she would have a great deal of compersion.

What she hates is the idea of me posting my picture up on an online dating service, going to dating clubs, or otherwise putting myself out there. She doesn't understand why I'd want to date people unless it's the instant-attraction cupid arrow love of my life type of rare find. She hates "meat markets" and hates me interacting in anything that even remotely resembles one.

She's also afraid that I could find an OSO very quickly if I tried, that I have a lot of "charm", and that I could attract not just nice people (for whom she's have compersion) but also axe murders. Lots of emotions and fears. At the same time, she realizes that this is completely fair and understandable, and from the beginning she gave me her permission to date. She's just wresting with the reality now that I AM dating (or moreso WAS getting ready to date, before I put that on hold temporarily to give her a chance to be more prepared for it).

I don't think she's trying to put any of those rules in place to make this fail. In fact, part of the rules were that she could not reach out or talk to any of the people until I'm ready, and that even through she could read my profile page, she couldn't criticize it or even bring up anything about it except for things she considered to be "safety concerns", such as having a recognizable picture of myself on it, unfortunately. lol

So it's very touchy right now, and I'm hoping that a little pause in this process will help take a bit of the edge off. At the same time, I'm looking for a sanity check myself, to see if these rules are a bit overly restrictive and not respecting the space I need, or if instead I need to err on the side of giving her more info than less in order to be 100% open and transparent, even before I've even introduced myself to someone I may be interested in.

Ideally, if she could just give me a little space in the early days of my meeting someone (doesn't have to be long... just a week or two, or even less if we hit it off quickly), then I think the process would be a LOT smoother and everything / everyone would work out great.

[NeonKaos]

Ideally, if she could just give me a little space in the early days of my meeting someone (doesn't have to be long... just a week or two, or even less if we hit it off quickly), then I think the process would be a LOT smoother and everything / everyone would work out great.

That sounds reasonable and I think that is what you should do if it is what you feel is right. Have you said it to your wife the way you said it on here? Perhaps the next step is to invite her to read what you wrote on this forum and maybe she'll want to create her own profile. Remember that she does not have to tell any of US she's your wife unless she WANTS to.

Other than that, the way I look at it is: since you appear to have identified the root causes of her hang-ups and insecurities, there shouldn't be any need for rules that validate them. You two should examine WHY she has those particular conditional insecurities and perceived threats and work on eliminating that counter-productive mindset. Then you can meet potential partners any way that seems natural (dating sites and clubs are not as "natural" as meeting someone through mutual friends, but there is nothing IMPROPER about them) and not be hindered by manufactured external factors so much.

[nycindie]

She's also afraid that I could find an OSO very quickly if I tried, that I have a lot of "charm", and that I could attract not just nice people (for whom she's have compersion) but also axe murders.Not to burst your bubble, but just so you two realize, from what married men say here in this forum, and what I've been told by the married poly guy I correspond with, it isn't that easy for men to meet poly-oriented women, especially if they're married. For some reason, married men are attractive in the monogamous/cheating world, but a married man who is polyamorous apparently scares many women off. So, although I don't understand why it would be such a bad thing if you found someone quickly (seems common for married poly guys to bemoan the fact that their wives found someone but they have not for a long time), she probably does not need to panic about that.

[redpepper]

That sounds reasonable and I think that is what you should do if it is what you feel is right. Have you said it to your wife the way you said it on here? Perhaps the next step is to invite her to read what you wrote on this forum and maybe she'll want to create her own profile. Remember that she does not have to tell any of US she's your wife unless she WANTS to.

Other than that, the way I look at it is: since you appear to have identified the root causes of her hang-ups and insecurities, there shouldn't be any need for rules that validate them. You two should examine WHY she has those particular conditional insecurities and perceived threats and work on eliminating that counter-productive mindset. Then you can meet potential partners any way that seems natural (dating sites and clubs are not as "natural" as meeting someone through mutual friends, but there is nothing IMPROPER about them) and not be hindered by manufactured external factors so much.I'm glad you said this Neon. I cringe at the very IDEA of rules at the best of times as it indicates to me a one sided arrangement where no one can move but the one who makes them. When I was given "rules" in my early years of poly I set out to break them, not respect them. Now we talk about what is behind them so that they lose their possesive edge and so that they can be negotiated and made into boundaries instead of "rules." I agree, taking about what the threats are is far more productive after a time than sticking to a "rule." The natural flow should be, as far as I am concerned, to work towards boundaries.

[Deuce]

Isn't this moving a little quick? From going from a completely monogamous mindest to having the OSO move in and you starting to date?
I would probably say to take it slow for now as the lifestyle change for you is the most dramatic and not for your wife.
Just seems odd to me that your wife would be so enthusiastic from the start of this less than two weeks ago to going into protective mode and equally as odd that you have made this transition from being devistated to completely embracing the new lifestyle.
That would be something to address before moving on anything regarding your situation.
Sorry for this being my first post.
D

[Polymonial]

It's been about a month now since my adventures into polyamory began. Prior to that, I've never even heard of the word "polyamory", let alone know anything about it. My wife and I were a straight vanilla mono couple... at least, we thought we were. Now we're a poly vee, my wife is bi, her wife is lesbian, and ya... I'm still straight vanilla, but I have to admit, I'm starting to really like this! ;-D

The three of us all get along wonderfully. I can't wait until she can move in with us. We all have a much better understanding of our relationship now, boundaries, feelings, interactions, roles, etc. We've been able to open up to a few close friends, all of which have been completely accepting... and a couple of which were poly as well! In fact, it turns out that a few of my friends are poly, and I never even knew! We opened up to our pastor, and she was also very accepting and welcomed my wife's OSO into the church. The level of support we've received has been truly heartwarming.

I also recognize that this just the beginning of a great adventure together, one that has already rekindled the love, romance, and passion between me and my wife (we're having extreme-NRE... it's like a second honeymoon, better than our first even!), helped my wife to grow and blossom, brought another wonderful person into our family, and re-established a healthy (and fun!) quality of life and work/life balance. True, we all still have a lot of learning and growing to do together, and there will be some jealousies, misunderstandings, and hurt feelings from time to time. But that's all part of the progress, and even that can be endearing if taken on with caring, love, patience, acceptance, and a sense of humor.

God bless you all. I can't thank everyone here enough for all their help and support. I'm no longer struggling like I was, but I look forward to continuing to be active within this forum... and I'll undoubtedly be asking for more help as our relationship progresses! ;-)

[Magdlyn]

As someone with over 10 years of experience in polyamory, I'd also like to warn against moving your wife's lover (she calls her her "wife" already???) this soon. We've heard plenty of stories here of poly partners moving in too soon, and it going sour within a few months. The metamours both feel NRE, but that fades, and personalities can begin to clash. It was just 2 weeks ago you were shattered and now you're over the moon! Meanwhile your wife is struggling with jealousy towards your dating, and you don't even have an OSO yet! Please don't complicate things just yet with having a live-in lover. Be cautious and responsible. NRE makes us see things thru rose colored glasses, but those rosy colors can and do fade. We all idealize our new lovers and present our own best faces, but that illusion fades.

With luck, the real person behind the ideal persona is just as good or better. But it takes time to find out. Time and a few life challenges test their and your true mettle.

[redpepper]

agreeing with Magdyln here. Easy does it.. :) It's so great to hear things are going so well. Remember though, NRE lasts up to a year and longer. The realy dynamic of your relationship is yet to come. You are making a good start for sure, but just enjoy it right now.

If you do a tag search for "moving in" there are some really good threads on the topic. Our tribe really went through a process with it and got some really good help from this forum. We took it slow and after 18 months or so we made the move for him to move into the apartment we have in the basement of our house. Both he and I have written extensively on this in various threads. I wrote about it in my blog too. Please feel free to PM if you have any specific concerns or just want to talk about it.:)

[Polymonial]

I agree that moving in is a major step in any relationship, and with poly relationships, everything is that much more complicated ('cause there's more people involved). I know that the three of us have really only cleared the first hurtle in our joint relationship together, but that first hurtle was a doozie... it told us if we could even handle forming a poly family in the first place.

In order to accept being a poly family, I had to explore and be completely comfortable with all of my options, including divorce and remariage. I had to explore my feelings of jealousy and compersion. I had to experience first hand how it would feel to share my wife's time with someone else. And I had to re-think all of my values regarding relationships and sexuality, with a completely open mind and willingness to accept the outcome, whatever is it. It was a difficult process and challenged the very bedrock of my belief system (being a staunch mono and all). There were periods of time where I had no moral compass or role models to guide me through it, other than the unconditional love I have for my wife. In Christian circles, we refer to this as "agape love" (http://www.gotquestions.org/agape-love.html). I also prayed to God for guidance.

(Did I mention before that I'm a romantic and a Christian. Damn... I'm just about as vanilla as they come! LOL)

From day #1, I've always felt compersion for my wife in recognizing she is bi and finding/falling in love with her wife. (I'm no longer going to refer to my wife's wife as an "OSO" because that implies a letter position in the vee. As far as I'm concerned, we're both my wife's primaries.) I saw the positive effect that all this all had on my wife, and something that wonderful can't be all bad. ;-) Furthermore, I like my wife's wife too... not in a romantic way but as a friend. She's a great person, and we all get along wonderfully. I'm sure that helps a lot in making a vee work.

One by one, I overcame my various concerns and jealousies while reforging and redefining my relationship with my wife, until there was really just one remaining issue... could I handle sharing my wife's time with someone else? I didn't think I could; I thought that may ultimately be the deal-breaker in all this, and I was mentally prepared to handle the consequences. But by having my wife's wife stay with us, we were able to resolve this last major issue / fear and figure out how to make it work for everyone. It was an eye opener, and it was the last major fear or hangup I had. I now just left with compersion for this new relationship, and I see it as wonderful. I still have jealousies from time to time, but they're more "cute" than hurtful.

Bottom line: I look forward to having my wife's wife move in is because it moves our relationship forward in a positive way. That's not to say we won't have challenges... everyone does, even mono couples after almost 20 years of marriage. But we'll all be together to resolve them, together, and become stronger in the process. And if ultimately this relationship is not meant to be (which I doubt), then that will become apparent as well and we'll address that too. Either way, moving-in is our next logical step, and we're (naively perhaps) plowing forward! Yea! ;-)

One funny side effect (that I didn't expect) of all this exploration is that I feel a step closer to being poly myself. I love the idea of adding one more to our family over time and adding a couple more kids. I don't know if we'll ever do this for reals... it's more of a long-term vision than anything we want to do right now. For the time being, I'm focused on continuing to rebuild the relationship with my wife. We have a lot of fun dating planned, catching up for lost time! ;-)

[nycindie]

Communal living is a challenge. I was just reading a thread about triads on another poly-focused forum, and I thought this quote might be helpful to you:

". . . many people looking for "moresomes" have little experience with roommates, & that rarely recent. It's a sweet little fantasy, but the reality of opening up your house & your life to a new person minute-by-minute is far more difficult that mere sex."

Just be as prepared as you can for the possibility of unforeseen bumps in the road.

[Magdlyn]

Polymonial, please read the OP on this thread.

http://www.polyamory.com/forum/showthread.php?t=4300&highlight=moved

Heartbreaking story of how NRE led this couple to move their lover in, only to have the woman of the original couple change her mind a few months down the road.

[Polymonial]

Thank you again for all your words of caution. I shared all this information with my wife, including the link "http://www.polyamory.com/forum/showthread.php?t=4300&highlight=moved", to make sure we pay heed to it. I want to make sure this relationship works.

Fortunately, my wife and her new partner were the ones that originally approached me about forming a poly relationship, so they should generally be committed to the idea. I was the weakest link since I was (a) in shock, (b) felt betrayed, and (c) a staunch mono. If anyone was going to spin out and leave the relationship, it would have been me. Much to my surprise, I came around not just accepting the relationship but *LOVING* it. It feels like an awakening in me, opening my eyes... dare I be poly myself??

So now my wife's wife is the most mono in the relationship, and I want to make sure she feels welcome, secure, accepted, and supported. (I know what it's like to be mono!) For example, she was originally willing to accept her role as a secondary (even though she'd want to be an equal) in order for me accept the poly relationship. But I've taken her in as a full primary, equal to my wife and I in the relationship, and wouldn't want it any other way. I've let her know that we all love and care for her, that she can always speak up and express herself, that we'll move forward at her pace (no faster), that she can have her own space when she needs it, and that she can/should express anything else she needs in the relationship.

We'll continue to proceed with caution, and I'm hopeful that this will be a lifetime polyfid vee. Yes, even in a poly relationship, I'm a romantic and highly committed/devoted. ;-) Thank you again for all of your support... I really feel all the caring and support from this group to help make our new family succeed!

[monolicious]

I think it is a common occurrence in mono-turned-poly relationships for the original opener to feel fine from their end, but to have trouble when the tables are turned. I don't see this so much as a double standard as the fact that thinking about things is not the same as feeling them when they actually happen to you. If she continues to uphold those feelings and acts from them, that would be a problem, but just having them and needing time to navigate them seems perfectly reasonable to me. It may also be a real chance for her to understand some of the things you have been feeling and gain that much more empathy for you. It sounds like you are doing an amazing job of being a loving, understanding partner.

One thing I would caution you on though is the temptation and desire to find your own SO just to balance things out or keep up with your wife's poly. I tried to do this at first myself and found it to NOT be the best motivation for relationship. You feel vulnerable because your wife has someone else. One way to alleviate that sense of vulnerability is to find someone else for yourself. You see how happy she is and you think you might be able to find that, and you might. I think it is a VERY IMPORTANT question to ask why you are suddenly seeking another relationship when you never have before, when you identify as mono, and you haven't fallen in love with anyone. etc.

You have also run into another division of poly. There are people who believe you "fall into" poly, just like you fall into love. It isn't something you choose or seek out, it is something that chooses you. You discover and manifest poly when you fall in love with more than one person at a time. This is how your wife found poly so she believes that it should work that way for you.

Then there is the poly camp that approach poly very intentionally (my husband is one of these). These people fall in love with the idea and ideal of the poly model, and go about making it work for them and their lives. They seek out a poly community, poly friends, poly relationships. This seems to be how you are approaching it. Your wife brought poly into your life and now you are falling in love with the idea (not a person) and wanting to manifest it in your own life.

Both these approaches are valid, and can work.

However, with the intentional approach, my husband took 18 months from the time he fell into poly before he ever acted on it. If you are taking the thoughtful approach, it really needs to be thoughtful (not just reactionary).

As for how much info/access your wife is asking for when you resume dating. That is pretty much what I ask of my husband. In our marriage we always share everything and that was one aspect I didn't want to lose when he became poly.

That being said, I started out needing that kind of close/detail/constantly informed but have begun to move away from needing that lately. I've just become more comfortable and my need for it has lessened. I suspect that this might be true of your wife as well. Once the newness wears off and her fears have been consistently addressed and processed, she may be able to loosen her hold. Just be prepared that each new relationship (and step) comes with its own new issues though.

As for it being a double standard (ie- you didn't or don't keep those tight tabs on her), I don't see that as the real issue. She is asking for what she needs to feel safe. You could ask for the same things, and expect to get them, if that is what made you feel safe. I know my husband would never keep the close tags on me that I do on him because he doesn't feel the need. We are different people and have different needs in different relationships.

Relationships are not about everyone having the exact same equal treatment or stuff. Relationships are about everyone having what they need and some/most of what they want.

I had trouble with the comparison thing at first as well-a default gender issue that I am beginning to overcome. Just keep telling her that you love her for who she is, and you don't compare her to anyone. She is unique and loved. One thing my husband said to me was, "Honestly honey, no one CAN compare to you. There is just no comparison." I treasure that statement whenever I feel insecure.

Your questions to this group are:

1. How much transparency in dating is good vs. excessive / too-much-information?

My answer: As much as the people involved need to navigate the changes and feel safe. Your wife needs a chance to find out what that is for her, and she wants to start at the most informed she can get. I would guess that later, she won't need so much.

2. When is the appropriate time to tell my wife about someone I'm interested in talking to (as a potential date): (a) before I even meet/speak to the person, (b) after I've said "Hello" but before she responds with her own "Hello", (c) after we've both said "Hello" to each other but before we actually carry on a conversation, (d) once we've officially met but before we know each other, (e) once we've established a rapport with each other and want to start getting to know one another, (f) once we've had kids together, etc.

My answer: My husband tells me as soon as he has an inkling of interest, or sometimes I even point someone out and say, "Oh, she looks interesting and your type." I love being included at the very beginning and along the way, makes me feel very special and invested in the relationship for my husband.
And he has also told me that he values and trusts my intuition about people, and he seeks my input from the get go. That means the world to me.

3. Is it reasonable for me to have my own space, at least in the early stages of dating / getting to know people without my wife being involved at every step? Or is it important that she knows everything about everyone at all times, even in the earliest stages of meeting someone, so that she feels comfortable, empowered, and we can address any issues of fear, jealousy, concern, etc. that may arise right away, head on?

My answer: If you hadn't been married for so many years as mono, I think it would be perfectly reasonable. Maybe it still is. You and your wife will have to navigate and negotiate your desire for personal space. Because my husband didn't demand space and let me in on all aspects of his poly, I was eventually able to "give" him space. I have a personality where when I am told something, I balk, but if I am asked, or allowed to give it, I give freely.

4. What other advise do you have for me in starting the dating process?

My answer: Many others have said this (or hinted at it), but I'll say it again. SLOW DOWN. Poly is not a sprint, it is a marathon. In many of your threads I feel concerned at how quickly you are moving on many levels. Humans have a limited capacity for change over time. They need time to adjust and process. Feeling comfortable or happy is not the same as fully processing something. Just because you don't feel terrible doesn't mean you have dealt with it. If you don't take the time to fully process now, it WILL happen later, long after decisions have been made that will hurt deeply to undo.

[Polymonial]

You see how happy she is and you think you might be able to find that, and you might. I think it is a VERY IMPORTANT question to ask why you are suddenly seeking another relationship when you never have before, when you identify as mono, and you haven't fallen in love with anyone. etc.

You are absolutely correct, I do see how wonderful a poly relationship is for my wife, and I want the same thing for myself. I've been in love with at least one other person during my marriage but I would never have acted on it or even admitted it to anyone... doing so would have been considered morally wrong. And I've met other people ('tho not that often at all) that I've had an instant, deep attraction to, not just physically but emotionally, but I would always put up walls for fear of falling in love with that person.

That said, I think most monos have had the same experience, 'tho perhaps may have succumbed to their emotions and had an affair. For me, I couldn't image being anything but faithful, and even in a poly relationship, I would only want polyfidelity.

So does that make me a mono or a poly? I don't think that's enough data to tell yet. The real question (for me, at least) is if I can love multiple people in a sustained, long-term / lifelong relationship. It sound like a lot of work... much more complications in a poly relationship (due to the increased number of people). I like things easy... like ME! LOL Time will tell.

You have also run into another division of poly. There are people who believe you "fall into" poly, just like you fall into love. It isn't something you choose or seek out, it is something that chooses you. You discover and manifest poly when you fall in love with more than one person at a time. This is how your wife found poly so she believes that it should work that way for you.

Yes, this is a BIG TIME issue, and perhaps the biggest sticking point for my wife. She is ok with me having an OSO of my own, so long as it's a love-at-first-sight accidental chance encounter type of thing, that I wasn't looking for it, but I just happened to find another soulmate. The idea of me proactively dating people or looking for another soulmate just KILLS her!!!

On the other hand, I can't get dating out of my head, no matter how hard I try. I feel like I've been in a mono structure for so long, I'm starved to meet other people. Don't get me wrong, I don't want to go sleeping with them... but I want to get to know them, have fun, go on hikes or other activities that my wife doesn't necessary enjoy as much, and if something does happen to spark up with someone, then be able to explore it further.

As for how much info/access your wife is asking for when you resume dating. That is pretty much what I ask of my husband. In our marriage we always share everything and that was one aspect I didn't want to lose when he became poly.

That being said, I started out needing that kind of close/detail/constantly informed but have begun to move away from needing that lately. I've just become more comfortable and my need for it has lessened. I suspect that this might be true of your wife as well. Once the newness wears off and her fears have been consistently addressed and processed, she may be able to loosen her hold. Just be prepared that each new relationship (and step) comes with its own new issues though.

Interestingly, while my wife is (kind of) ok with me having an OSO of my own, my wife's wife isn't. She is very mono, somewhat jealous whenever I spend time with my wife ('tho she's good about it), probably wishes she could have my wife all to herself ('tho she would never act on that because she respects our marriage and family too much), and definitely doesn't want yet another OSO (other than herself) added to her/our family!

Furthermore, while my wife understands her needs to have two partners: one man and one woman, she doesn't understand why I would ever want to be with two different women. In her mind, that would mean she's insufficient for me, that if she were a better match, I wouldn't want to be with anyone else. She has a lot of fear that I would leave her for someone else, and jealousies that the OSO would be "better" than her in some way: age, activities, etc.

I've comforted her and continually reinforce to her that she's my soulmate, that I love her unconditionally, that she's wonderful and I love her deeply, with all my heart. She is perfect. And if I fall in love with another woman, none of that changes... she is still my soulmate, unconditional love, perfect. I think she understands that on some level, given that she's living it herself right now between me and her wife. But at the same time, I know she feels her situation is different than mine (i.e. she's bi, I'm straight) and feels that I should be satisfied with just one woman (as she is).

I'll say it again. SLOW DOWN. Poly is not a sprint, it is a marathon.

Agreed. Admittedly, I've never been patient at anything. My relationship with my wife went at light speed as well when we first met, as has everything else I tend to do, be it learning scuba, rock climbing, my work, etc. It's probably why I make a good executive at work, because I go deep/intense into a subject but also move quickly and decisively. That said, I've had to learn to "hide" how quickly I'm learning something new... or learn it solo... to prevent inadvertently burning my wife out on the subject as well (such as when I was learning to sail). I'll try to slow down more, but it's hard and sometimes has the reverse effect!

[Carma]

Wow, Polymonial, I can sure relate to what you're dealing with, as my husband and I are new to this as well. It is easy to get exhilarated by the possibilities, isn't it?! I have all kinds of beautiful poly fantasies of communal living, which I know are probably way too idealistic -- and unrealistic, ha! -- but I do love to dream, nonetheless.

My husband struggles with our new situation, and he sets up "rules," too. However, we tend to tweak them as we go along. I think it's tough on him since my lover is another straight male, so there is some "orangutan" jealousy that goes on.

My husband has joined some internet dating sights, but the women he meets are interested in the prince charming scenario. They are in NO WAY interested in a married man who wants to stay married but have another intimate relationship that is "wife-approved." I wish I could find one for him, but I suppose that would creep the women out even more, haha!

He's actually more of a mono, anyway, but I think it would do him some good to have some other women boost his ego, which has been really shaken by my new relationship. However, this doesn't make him poly. He was very, very promiscuous before we got married, and never wants to go back to that. He was ready to commit to one and only, and he has been a totally devoted and faithful husband. Who would have ever expected this? We're trying to make the best of it.

I have never felt jealous with him, but he says if he actually does meet someone, I'm going to freak out! I suppose compersion seems simple in theory, but once you have to practice it, it has its challenges, for sure. I feel like if he meets someone, she can be my friend, too, and that would be lovely! I'm not bi, so I'm not interested in a sexual relationship with her, but I would definitely welcome a friend. And I think my husband is wonderful, so I would love to have another woman sharing in my belief.

Just some newbie ramblings. Thanks to all for being here. :)

[Carma]

I really appreciate the idea that there can be 2 ways of discovering Polyamory -- falling in love with another person, or falling in love with Polyamory and then pursuing the lifestyle!

I fell in love with someone, and was completely confused. It was awful. I could not understand how this could happen, when I loved my husband dearly (and still do).

Conventional thinking completely condemns me for what my heart says is right.

I still really struggle, but coming here helps.

[Derbylicious]

I haven't read all the responses so I apologize if this has been covered already. You were talking about your wife being uncomfortable with you looking for a relationship on a dating site. I had similar insecurities and it took me a long time to articulate why that is.

Dating sites are a lot like shopping for a partner. It seems that pretty much anyone who responds will do. It made me feel like *I* wasn't really worth anything since anyone who came along and responded to an e-mail would fill the role of "girlfriend". It made me wonder if I was just in the position of "wife" because I happened to be there.

I have no idea if this is what is going on for her but it is worth asking. I know a lot of people meet on line these days. There isn't anything actually wrong with it but if it is triggering something in her there may be some kind of underlying reason why.

[Seasnail]

My husband has joined some internet dating sights, but the women he meets are interested in the prince charming scenario. They are in NO WAY interested in a married man who wants to stay married but have another intimate relationship that is "wife-approved." I wish I could find one for him, but I suppose that would creep the women out even more, haha!

Would you belive that's EXACTLY how I met my boyfriend? In person, not over the internet, but she engineered time for us to spend together and gave her approval quite openly. I was nervous at first, but it has proved to be a wonderful experience for me.;)

[Seasnail]

I really appreciate the idea that there can be 2 ways of discovering Polyamory -- falling in love with another person, or falling in love with Polyamory and then pursuing the lifestyle!

I think maybe there's a third, which is accepting the validity of both monogamy and polyamory, without being "sold" on one or the other. I wouldn't identify as polyamorous, though I am in a poly relationship and have dated more than one person at a time, honestly and openly, and adore my OSO's contribution to my life. I don't know what will happen for me in the future, but I'm not convinced it's about wiring. Maybe it's like being bi, only with numbers?:rolleyes:

[Carma]

Would you belive that's EXACTLY how I met my boyfriend? In person, not over the internet, but she engineered time for us to spend together and gave her approval quite openly. I was nervous at first, but it has proved to be a wonderful experience for me.;)

Wow! I would love to find someone good for my husband. He deserves it!

[Seasnail]

Wow! I would love to find someone good for my husband. He deserves it!

:) And there's something *nice* about being valued enough by another to be thought a good match for their partner, and invited into a family.

[lovinhimloviner]

I can relate to your story more than any of them I have read so far I think. The difference is my husband fell in love with another straight girl. I never had a problem with it except maybe time concerns. He knows in his head it isn't "fair" to tell me that I can't have what he has but in his heart he just can't take it. He has suggested that I be allowed to date. He doesn't ask me to tell him anything he just says "I know you will tell me if I need to know". I am not looking for anything to happen but I will be open to it now. I love watching him being in love with her it makes me extremely happy. I am sad only because I know he will not feel the same way if it does happen to me. He said that he KNOWS there is no one that can replace me. He worries that there are LOTS of people better for me than him. It doesn't seem to matter that I tell him and show him that I love him a hundred times a day or that we have been in our honeymoon phase for 8 years and that we love each other more than either one of us ever thought possible. He is still afraid I will love someone more than him and that he will lose me.

[Polymonial]

It's now been two months since forming our poly vee: me, my wife (the fulcrum), and her OSO/wife. (The two of them were pining over each other for seven month's prior... so it's a total of nine months in some sense, but the vee itself was only formed two months ago.)

My wife's OSO is a solid mono... jealous over me, struggles being in a poly relationship, but at the same time is trying to make this work as a vee. She is a very nice, wonderful person. She would prefer to have my wife all to herself in a mono relationship, but she also know it would break my wife's heart to only have one of us, so she bears with it and attempts to be friends with me. And as I said, she is very kind-hearted, so that works for the most part.

My wife is both poly & mono. Huh?? She's poly, in that she formed the vee and wants to be with both me and her wife/OSO, in a polyfidelitous relationship. But she's mono in that she wouldn't want anyone else for herself... or for us. She only wants one man and one woman for herself... no more, no multiples. And she struggles like a mono (extreme jealousy, self-doubt, wondering what's lacking in herself, etc.) if me or her OSO would ever be interested in seeing someone else or falling in love with another partner. We've been married 17 years and known each other 20 years, 2 kids, and a wonderful, happy life together.

And me? I think I'm mono with some poly tendencies. I'm poly in that I feel great compersion for my wife and her wife/OSO being together... it is a great relationship for my wife, she glows when they're together. Plus I think I could take on an additional partner myself as well, if I found just the right person and we could all live happily ever after. But if not for my wife and her needs for a vee, then I would be the poster-child for monogamy... never look at another woman while married, never stray, completely dedicated and devoted, and not interested in participating in poly. A mono relationship makes me the happiest... again, if not for my wife's needs and how good her vee has been for her. Compersion.

Ok... now for the temptation. Over my 17 years of marriage, I met someone that I felt sparks for. Being a strict monogamist, I therefore put up emotional barriers with her, and we worked together professionally but kept it strictly professional. I'd love to have her join our poly family, so I went out with her (all with my wife's permission, of course). I found out that she has strong feelings for me too, always has since we first met, and that she would be with me "in a heartbeat" if I were single. That said, she's also monogamous, and therefore, would not be interested in dating if I'm still married, and definitely not poly relationships. Therefore, we decided to be friends while I figure out what I want, and she will be "waiting for me".

And my wife if flipping out over all this emotionally. Don't get me wrong, my wife even encouraged me to see her... she gave me dating tips, etc. But she is extremely jealous as well, even with us as just friends... that seems to make her even MORE jealous (because she sees the spark doesn't know where this will all lead).

I want to stay with my wife and kids. I also personally, strongly prefer a monogamous relationship, 'tho I can handle a poly relationship if my needs are met by it. My needs are mostly met by the vee, and when we all do things together, it's great. But there are times when it feels somewhat private or secretive, unequal, unfair, or alone. During those times, I feel like running outside screaming to go dating and find balance, solace, or normalcy.

So now I have a great temptation. I have my wife of 17 years whom I love, but she needs to be in a poly vee. And I have a strong love interest that I could live happily ever after with, but only in a monogamous relationship. I'm staying with my wife (because I love her so!) and believe I can put up living in a vee relationship. At the same time, I suspect I would be even happier starting a new life with the other woman in a strictly monogamous, traditional marriage.

So I guess that answers one question: am I mono or poly? Answer: definitely a mono, but open minded and with great feelings of compersion.

But I still have one other, very important question to answer: who should I be with? If the other woman would join our poly family (and if my poly/mono wife could handle her extreme jealousies, and her mono OSO doesn't kill me for bringing in another person into their vee), then it would be great and I could feel complete, whole, and happy. But that's not likely.

At some point, I suspect I'll have to make a choice, but in the meantime, I'm seeing both of them while I try to figure this all out. I'm confident that time will tell... I just need time to figure out what to do. On the plus side, we all love and care for each other, so no matter which direction it goes, we have the opportunity of keeping it loving and nurturing. It's just a matter of who of the four of us are married vs. lovers vs. just friends, plus the relationship dynamics. :O

[SNeacail]

Any poly person would have issues with this new woman you are seeing, she is and will continue to try and get you to leave your wife. She has stated very directly that she will NOT do poly and will "wait" for you. You really need to stop seeing her until you have decided if you are staying with your wife or if you are leaving. It's not fair to either of them.

[redpepper]

Cowboy? I don't see how its fair that you should decide on one or the other. It sounds like this is your thought though, not on this other woman or your wifes. Confused on that.

I'm also not sure how knowing she's interested after mearly talking to her at work justifies your thoughts that you should maybe leave your wife for her. You barely know her. At least romantically anyways. You don't know enough to make a choice I think. Apart from this one time hanging out with her you don't know some important stuff. I'm thinking like whether she has the same values as you, compatible lifestyles. Loves dogs and owns ten and you hate dogs... Know what I mean?

It sounds like you do need the time you think you do. Do you think you would love them both? Do you think the vee you are in means you and your wife are done eventually? Is the demise of your relationship imminent do to her time being stretched to thin? What of your wifes one vagina policy? I think she has some work to do around that. All of you have some work to do it seems. I think that is what this woman has produced in your life more than should you decide who to be with.

Besides, the very few months you have been in this is way too short I think to make such huge decisions, but then, that's just me.

[Ariakas]

There sure is a lot of mono in that poly dynamic. Sounds like a couple of cowgirls and some mules. Or something like that.

Why can't you just be open? Before poly there were those of us in loving OPEN relationships. Don't overthink it too much. You are capable of 2 romantic relationships. Welcome to non-monogamy :)

Anyways, in all of this, you can't force a square peg into a round hole. If the girl you are interested is monogamous...don't try and force poly on her by bringing her in. For some reason I get big red flag feelings from a potential quad...with 2 of the people being monogamous for the others. I think this could create a lot of problems, I would tread very carefully into that design. Also with you wife having jealousy problems...before I would consider getting involved with anyone, I would try to get that resolved if its even possible. Of course there will be a spark, its new.

Well my take anyways. 2 mono's...1 possible poly, 1 poly but insecure about the potential relationship of the possible poly...yep...tread carefully :)

Ari

[monolicious]

First,
Thank you so much for sharing your struggle with this.

The scenario you describe is one I fear I will find myself in eventually.

My husband (of 20 mono years) has recently gone poly. I am very much mono.

And as much as I love my husband (and I Really do- we have an incredible relationship), I find the poly thing extremely challenging.

Let me put it this way. I am an amazing, loyal, dedicated, affectionate, trusting, mono wife. But honestly, I hate the way I feel, act, think, struggle, when he is actively poly. I feel like I suck at it, that I suck at something I had previously been amazing at (my marriage). He doesn't think I suck at it. But that is the way I feel. It is like the difference between breathing air (which I like and have always done- and breathing something poisonous). And that comparison is apt because sometimes I feel like his poly is slowly destroying me. I thrive as a mono; I endure his poly. Conversely, he thrives in poly, and isn't sure he could endure mono for any length of time ever again.

I suppose one difference is that my husband is more than eager to have me develop outside relationships (male or female ones). He thinks that will be great (he is the eternal optimist:) But I'm not poly. So if I looked for an outside relationship, I have no doubt I would be drawn to (and seek) a mono one. And yet, the last thing he wants is for our marriage to end.

It all just doesn't add up to a happy ending.

I would say that given what you've said about your wife, I don't think she is very poly (at least not yet). It sounds like she is a mono person in love with two different people at the same time (which is not the same as believing and desiring many loves for yourself and others). It sounds to me like you are three mono people trying to make a vee work, which I'm sure must be incredibly challenging and I'm impressed with how you've all handled it so far.

I guess the one other thing I would say it that in every post I've read by you, I've felt overwhelmed by the pace you take, by how quickly you seem to need to resolve everything. And others seem to be responding as well with "Slow down. Take time to process. Don't rush decisions." etc.

Ambiguity is very hard for some people to live with. I know it is very hard for me personally, and sometimes I just want to make a decision so I can move forward in surety of what the hell my life actually is. I sense that in you, and as tempting as it is to do, I'd say, "Try to live in the ambiguity for a while." Don't make reactive decisions. Stew in your own emotions and process for as long as you can. There may be discoveries in that you never would have found otherwise.

Keep being brave and loving, and sharing your journey. You inspire me.

[redpepper]

Ambiguity is very hard for some people to live with. I know it is very hard for me personally, and sometimes I just want to make a decision so I can move forward in surety of what the hell my life actually is. I sense that in you, and as tempting as it is to do, I'd say, "Try to live in the ambiguity for a while." Don't make reactive decisions. Stew in your own emotions and process for as long as you can. There may be discoveries in that you never would have found otherwise.
I love this and agree entirely. Thanks for saying it.
:)

[monolicious]

I love this and agree entirely. Thanks for saying it.
:)

You're welcome. It actually helped me understand myself to voice/write it.

[Polymonial]

First, a couple questions (forgive my ignorance, I'm still a newbie here)... what is the meaning of the following terms: Cowboy, cowgirl, and mule?

My ideal would be for this other woman to join us in an "N". I could definitely love both my wife and this other woman, and I think we could all be happy together, over time, if everyone could be poly about it. That said, I seriously doubt she would be interested, and even my wife (who started her vee in the first place) struggles with me having an OSO of my own. :( Therefore, for now, I'll be friends with this other woman but open to the possibilities as everyone gets to know each other. My wife and the other woman know and like each other, so maybe there's hope? In any case, it's a "E TICKET" ride!

If I left my wife, it wouldn't necessarily be for this other woman. Instead, it would be for a simpler life, which may (probably) or may not have this woman it. I could also just be single for awhile... that's cool too. Either way, I'll still always love my wife, her wife, and everyone else that's been somehow involved in this most complex of happenings. LOL

And yes... there's a lot of mono in this relationship. In fact, even my wife (who is the poly) feels she's actually mono... just mono in love with two people at the same time. She jokingly uses the term "bi-mono" for this. Monolicious is spot on correct when she says:

I would say that given what you've said about your wife, I don't think she is very poly (at least not yet). It sounds like she is a mono person in love with two different people at the same time (which is not the same as believing and desiring many loves for yourself and others). It sounds to me like you are three mono people trying to make a vee work, which I'm sure must be incredibly challenging and I'm impressed with how you've all handled it so far.


I think we're basically three monos in a poly relationship, but with very open minds to the possibilities and trying to make it work, 'through all the challenges. I'm just not sure how easy it is for a bunch of monos to maintain a poly relationship together in the long run? Usually, there's at least ONE poly in the group! ;-)

Ambiguity is very hard for some people to live with. I know it is very hard for me personally, and sometimes I just want to make a decision so I can move forward in surety of what the hell my life actually is. I sense that in you, and as tempting as it is to do, I'd say, "Try to live in the ambiguity for a while." Don't make reactive decisions. Stew in your own emotions and process for as long as you can. There may be discoveries in that you never would have found otherwise.


And I agree with this as well. My life and relationships are ambiguous right now, and that's ok. They'll work themselves out over time, and so long as we all continue with love for each other, open minds, and free communication, then whatever the outcome is (stay together, split up, etc.), it will be ok and we'll all continue to be best of friends... or more.

Ok... I feel some tears coming on, so I'm going to stop now. ;-)

[Polymonial]

Oh... and as always, I want to thank all of you for your great replies. This is a wonderful group, and I am indebted to all of you and your support as I go through this journey! :)

[Ariakas]

First, a couple questions (forgive my ignorance, I'm still a newbie here)... what is the meaning of the following terms: Cowboy, cowgirl, and mule?

Cowgender is someone coming in to try and steal you away from your primary relationship to start your own. Cowgender are as much the fault of the people involved as the cowgender's. As long as everyone knows the ground rules from the start, now one should ever become one. And if they are one they wouldn't get involved. Any...indecision on the part of any one partner, breeds this kind of person.

Mule is a new one, I just made up for sarcastic humour. It reads like their are two cowgirls (your wifes gf and your...friend) and you are both gonna let them ride you for the full ride until something breaks. Excuse my cynicism. It was more a sarcastic joke on having two mono gf's in the mix of a couple.


And yes... there's a lot of mono in this relationship. In fact, even my wife (who is the poly) feels she's actually mono... just mono in love with two people at the same time. She jokingly uses the term "bi-mono" for this. Monolicious is spot on correct when she says:


This is like another person I argued with that said she wasn't non-monogamous but was a swinger. Poly is loving more than two people, she loves more than two people. There isn't really splitting hairs unless she is a label hater...(see below)


I think we're basically three monos in a poly relationship, but with very open minds to the possibilities and trying to make it work, 'through all the challenges. I'm just not sure how easy it is for a bunch of monos to maintain a poly relationship together in the long run? Usually, there's at least ONE poly in the group! ;-)


In the end, here is where I digress...its all labels. What would you be if you never found poly...3 people in love in a non-monogamous relationship trying to make relationships work. Sometimes walking away from the label and the attached...stigmas and responsibilities of those labels helps people. It might be something to consider in your journey if the labels are what are creating some of your tension.

You seem reasonable and thoughtful. Its working as it is now...mono, poly, ethical whatever you want. Keep doing what you are doing and trying to make it work. In the end, this is just another set of relationships, if everyone is open to it and knows the end goals...it has as good a chance as working as any relationship. Its only as complex and intense as you want to make it.

Good luck

Ari

[Polymonial]

I had a long talk with my wife's OSO over the weekend and cleared the air on a LOT of issues. I offered to let them (my wife and her OSO) start their own life together as a simple, mono couple (particularly since the OSO is VERY mono herself), but she doesn't want that. She really wants me to stay in the triad.

So I guess that despite being a mono, she's definitely not a cowgirl, and she's always made it clear that she would rather have the "tablescraps" of our relationship than break us up. Of course, I'd never want to consider her as anything less than a primary as well... no one deserves just "tablescraps" in a relationship.

The girl I dated, on the other hand, is definitely a cowgirl... and unfortunately, I'm hooked on her. Plus I pine for the simpler life of serial monogamy. (I'm sorry... I know what heresy that is here.) But I don't want to leave my wife either. So life kind of sucks for me right now, even though it's only because the four of us have a lot love between us. *sigh*

So I guess that makes me the mule. Better than a donkey, I guess... but not by much. (Maybe where it counts most? :)) I am more stressed now than ever, probably because this is MY turn to make a decision. Establishing the poly relationship in was my wife's doing, and I had the luxury of being a mere participant, along for the ride (so to speak). But now, whatever decision I make (to leave the triad vs. stay and try to work through the issues) will have significant, permanent, and life-changing consequences. I can't take this decision lightly... I have to be certain before doing anything. :(

So I'm seeing a couple marriage counselors this week. Getting support from my closest friends. Posting my life story and getting expert feedback on polyamory.com. ;) And sucking down sake bombs. (Don't worry... I don't normally drink, but these are exceptional times.)

Wish me luck (whatever that means), hope, wisdom, mercy, patience (I don't have a lot of this right now, I'm currently in a mental meltdown), and love!

[Ariakas]

Good luck...;)

Poly can seriously suck. Its a fuck load of work and... sometimes seems like it isn't worth it. Thats a personal decision of course. If you think its worth it to you, then do what you can to make the love in your life work.

And really, seriously, I wish you all the luck in the world... when poly is working... its an incredible time. Treasure it.

Ari

[monolicious]

First, great job talking to your wife's OSO and getting a clear position from her. But, I'll admit a bit of confusion.

In the past, you've called your situation a V but in this post you call it a triad. Not to be a label diva, but that may make a difference, which I will explain in a minute. I'm going to assume it is a V, based on what you've said in the past, and I define that as you NOT being intimately involved with your wife's OSO. You have a love relationship with your wife, your wife has a love relationship with her OSO, but you don't love the OSO and she doesn't love you (at least not on a romantic level).

So, the OSO is mono, and you have indicated she struggles and would really like your wife to herself (much as you yourself would). But when pressed, she says she doesn't want that- she wants you to stay.

Here's the crucial question I have- Why does she want you to stay if she is not poly and not in love with you? What is her motivation? It may be that she does not want to think of herself as someone who ended a marriage. She doesn't want to navigate the struggles it will cause for her and your wife. You're a nice guy and she doesn't want to see you hurt. She wants it because your wife wants it. She fears change. She fears how that change will change her relationship with your wife. She fears given "a have to choose between" situation, that your wife would ultimately choose you. Or something else completely different. It could be that deep down she hopes she can overcome her mono nature and make the V thing work.

You don't make her motivation clear in your post. She may not even know what it is, but I do think it is crucial, because most of those reason I mention above won't be enough to overcome the constant struggle that a mono in a poly sit faces. In my own situation, I'm not even sure a loving, committed relationship of twenty years is going to overcome it.

If I were you, I would ask a big "Why?"

I don't think pining for the simple live of serial monogamy is heresy. I can relate to that on so many levels. Lately, I've been trying to explain to my husband why I love the "closed" relational system of monogamy so much. It's safe, its secure, its simpler, its clearly defined, its not so full of constant ambiguity. At least, my mono marriage wasn't. It was a pleasure, and I'm going to stop apologizing for loving the relationship style I do best, and thrive in.

Yes, I'm not entirely sure that for myself, many more loves=much more happiness. That seems to be an adage of poly that is only true for very poly people in the equation. For the rest of us it tends to equal incredible, painful, struggle.

I know what you mean about being the "decider". It has so much consequence and responsibility attached to it. I have to wonder if your wife's OSO said what she did to avoid being a "decider". And being a decider gets tougher the more you pile on people who are affected by the decision. do you decide what will make the most people happy? What will make you happy? What will make no one happy, but at least no one totally miserable?
And sometimes we want to take action (to decide) just so we can gain back some control and not feel like others are deciding our lives for us. Or we want to decide before someone else decides for us.


I am so sorry to hear you are having a meltdown, but so glad to hear you are getting counseling. Try to take stock of how you feel, and compare that to what is actually happening. You may feel like your world is coming to an end, that you can't do it, that it is too much, that you have no real "good" choice, just a heap of bad ones. I know how that feels and it really sucks.

But, what is actually happening is that you are finding out what you want for your own life. Your wife is finding out what she wants. Her OSO is finding out what she wants. And even your female friend is finding out what she wants (and I so admire he for saying that she only wants to be mono and won't compromise) You are all being loving, and honest, and raw with one another. You are communicating despite very difficult circumstances.

I, for one, am damn impressed with what you've done.

The last piece of advice I'd offer, is don't make any crucial decisions while in meltdown mode. I know that is what meltdown mode says (make it stop, make it stop, make it stop) but get past that voice to a clear head and heart before doing anything life-changing.

One final question on a more personal note. I vaguely remember the mention of kids. How are they doing with all this? I ask because we have two of our own and I'm curious to know how others handle that. Plus, I know that adds a lot of weight to the "decider" thing.

Hang in there. You are amazing and encourage me every time I read your posts.

[Polymonial]

In the past, you've called your situation a V but in this post you call it a triad.

I apologize if I got my terminology wrong. I've seen the word "triad" defined on the web as any form of three-person relationship, i.e. a triangle or a vee. In any case, you are correct... our relationship is strictly a vee, not a triangle, with my wife as the fulcrum.

Here's the crucial question I have- Why does she [the OSO] want you to stay if she is not poly and not in love with you? What is her motivation?

That's a very good question. The OSO gave the following reasons for wanting the three of us together in a vee, as opposed to just stealing my wife away from me:


My wife needs both of us. It would break my wife's heart to lose me.
The OSO would never want to break up a marriage.
The OSO respects me.

Additionally, my wife added that she [my wife] would not be interested in her [the OSO] if she [the OSO] wanted to steal her [my wife] away from me. (The use of pronouns in poly sentences can get a little tricky, huh? ;)) Also, the OSO might have some fear that my wife (being bi) could fall for another guy down the road if I left her, maybe even leave the OSO for him... but I don't know how significant that fear really is. I'd be speculating.

Both my wife and her OSO feel guilty about what they've done to our relationship so far, and particularly the way in which they did it, i.e. cheating on me for 7 months in front of me without telling me, bonding with my kids during that time, etc. (Clarification: By "cheating", I mean that they fell in love with each other, held hands, kissed (<-- that broke my heart), wrote love messages to one another, not sure how much father they went physically, but they did wait until asking for my permission before becoming completely physically intimate.)

The OSO once told my wife once that "of course" she would want the relationship to be just the two of them (i.e. monogamous), but she's never pushed for that. To the contrary, she's always made conscious steps to keep me in the relationship.

I'm not entirely sure that for myself, many more loves=much more happiness. That seems to be an adage of poly that is only true for very poly people in the equation. For the rest of us it tends to equal incredible, painful, struggle.

For my wife, two loves=more happiness, but only when the planets are aligned and everything is working perfectly. Most of the time, she's dealing with the struggle and angst from me, her OSO, or worst of all... both of us at the same time. Couple that with her own guilt, and it's incredibly stressful for her. Additionally, for my wife, less than two loves=more sadness. She fell in love with another woman over twenty years ago, before we even met, and held onto that love in her heart throughout our entire marriage. Yet she was never able to accept herself as being bisexual until just recently, when she met her OSO and knew she needed to be with both of us (me and her OSO). Only after truly accepting herself as bisexual and having a relationship with both of us, has my wife fully blossomed.

The OSO feels miserable whenever I'm intimate with my wife. She doesn't feel compersion for us, but rather it breaks her heart and she struggles with it terribly. Both my wife and her OSO tell me that 90% of their discussions are about me. (My wife loves to talk about me, in a positive way.) And I know it frustrates my OSO that I'm always in the center of my wife's mind. And ironically, I actually feel bad about that... I'd prefer they enjoy each other more when I'm not around. (And I'm also secretly very flattered that my wife loves to talk about me so much! As I love to talk about her to my friends too. Like I said, we're two peas in a pod. :))

You may feel like [...] you can't do it, that it is too much, that you have no real "good" choice, just a heap of bad ones. I know how that feels and it really sucks. [...] The last piece of advice I'd offer, is don't make any crucial decisions while in meltdown mode. I know that is what meltdown mode says (make it stop, make it stop, make it stop) but get past that voice to a clear head and heart before doing anything life-changing.

You're correct on all accounts. As much as I've tried to be supportive and open minded, I don't know if I can ultimately handle a vee relationship. Furthermore, I've only recently (last night, in fact) finally felt the enormity of emotions about my wife cheating on me. In the past, I was upset at the OSO for her role in the cheating, but I gave my wife a pass because (1) she didn't understand her sexuality (that she was bi) at the time and (2) I love her, and it's easier to hate the mistress than one's spouse. But now I don't see it as any different than a common affair, just some of the genders may be different, and my wife wants her mistress to stay with us forever. :( That's how I feel when I'm sad about all this... 'tho I'm feeling that way increasingly often nowadays.

As for me, I just want my wife all to myself, "mono-a-mono" so to speak. ;) Everything else -- a vee, an N (with me taking on an OSO of my own), divorce and re-marry, cheat on my wife, have a completely open relationship, etc. -- are in the "heap of bad choices", but those are the only choices I've got. :( So I have to pick one. But before I'm comfortable doing that, I have to get over my "meltdown mode" and feel emotionally well rooted and stable. Until then, I'm letting it ride without making any big decisions.

If I can make the vee work for me (and for the OSO), then that's what I'd want to do. And I think I've made significant strides towards making it work. As the adage goes, "it feel so close, yet so far away". I think my remaining two hangups are:


I get jealous when my wife spends time with her OSO during times that I consider to be our time together [my wife+me].
I am hurt when the OSO is overly private or keeps secrets from me (even though I recognize they may be personal to her).

For example, the other day, the OSO was out of town and left my wife and I together at home. The OSO accidentally left some childhood pictures of herself at our house. I wanted to snuggle up with my wife and watch some TV together, but she kept texting with her OSO, had her on Skype, and was scanning her photos for her onto the computer. I felt hurt and neglected, particularly since I felt it should finally be our time together. But instead of complaining, I decided to try to make the best of it and get involved with the two of them... make scanning the photos more of a family activity. I asked if I could see the photos too. My wife asked her OSO (over Skype) if that's ok, and the OSO responded that she'd prefer I didn't see them. (And they were just simple childhood family photos... nothing that I would consider private.) That was like a dagger in my heart... that I was not only being neglected during our time together, but that I couldn't even share in this simple activity. :(:(:(

At the same time, I realize that the OSO is an incredibly private and shy person. And she's told me more private things about herself than she's told her best friends from childhood, so I'm flattered. But I'm also still hurt whenever I feel excluded, particularly on things that don't seem all that private.

On a separate note, I'm also hurt that my wife has such mono feelings about me finding an OSO of my own. She doesn't know if she could still be with me if I was ever with another woman. It makes me wonder:


If having an OSO (like my wife has) is ok and wonderful, then why won't she [my wife] let me have an OSO as well? Or if having an OSO is wrong, then why does my wife have one?

It's not that I particularly even want an OSO at this time (maybe in the future, who knows?), but I want to have the same options that my wife chose for herself. When pressed, my wife will say it's ok, but there's a tremendous amount of restrictions, fear, and angst that comes along with that, and she always warns that she's still not sure if she'd be able to be intimate with me anymore if I ever had an OSO.

One final question on a more personal note. I vaguely remember the mention of kids. How are they doing with all this? I ask because we have two of our own and I'm curious to know how others handle that. Plus, I know that adds a lot of weight to the "decider" thing.

Yes, we have two children, ages 7 and 10. We have a wonderful, loving household. And they both absolutely adore the OSO. They don't know the relationship we all have, but we'll explain it to them when they're older, and I'm confident they'll be fine with it. Furthermore, they want the OSO to live with us forever and consider her part of our family.

I love this. But occasionally, I get brief flashbacks of the movie The Hand That Rocks The Cradle (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0104389). :eek: Again, if we can make the vee work, then it could truly be wonderful. But if we need to divorce (because I can't handle the vee), then I'd be breaking up our family. It really sucks.

First, great job talking to your wife's OSO and getting a clear position from her. [...] I am [...] so glad to hear you are getting counseling. [...] You are all being loving, and honest, and raw with one another. You are communicating despite very difficult circumstances. I, for one, am damn impressed with what you've done. [...] Hang in there. You are amazing and encourage me every time I read your posts.

OMG, I don't know what I'd do if not for all the encouragement and support I've received from this group! You have all been wonderful, and I want to hug you all!

[monolicious]

You are probably right about the term "triad" meaning three without specifying the configuration. I'm still learning myself what all these labels indicate, but mainly I wanted to clarify what your relationship with wife's OSO was and how that might influence various decisions/motives.

The reasons she gave for wanting you to stay were some of the ones I guessed. Not that any of those reasons is invalid. I'm just not sure they are strong enough to hold together three mono-people trying to be a poly for the long haul. Who knows.

"Additionally, my wife added that she [my wife] would not be interested in her [the OSO] if she [the OSO] wanted to steal her [my wife] away from me."

This is true in my situation for my husband as well. However, the problem is that what we want our actions to result in, and what they actually result in can be two very different things. I believe that her main motive isn't to steal your wife away. Her main motive is love for your wife. Just as your wife's main motive in poly is not to destroy her relationship with you, it was to find more fulfilling love. Despite all that, the fact remains that what we want isn't always what happens, even with the best of intentions.

"The OSO once told my wife once that "of course" she would want the relationship to be just the two of them (i.e. monogamous), but she's never pushed for that. To the contrary, she's always made conscious steps to keep me in the relationship."

The above is actually pretty amazing. From what you've said in this post and others, she obviously doesn't feel like sharing your wife, and yet she is taking actions to do so. It is possible that eventually her feelings will follow this choice of action, or it is possible things will tip the other way. I don't know.

"For my wife, two loves=more happiness, but only when the planets are aligned and everything is working perfectly. Most of the time, she's dealing with the struggle and angst from me, her OSO, or worst of all... both of us at the same time. Couple that with her own guilt, and it's incredibly stressful for her. Additionally, for my wife, less than two loves=more sadness. She fell in love with another woman over twenty years ago, before we even met, and held onto that love in her heart throughout our entire marriage. Yet she was never able to accept herself as being bisexual until just recently, when she met her OSO and knew she needed to be with both of us (me and her OSO). Only after truly accepting herself as bisexual and having a relationship with both of us, has my wife fully blossomed."

This paragraph shows such an amazing, deep, compassionate understanding love for your wife, who she is as a person and her process. Thank you for sharing it. It is beautiful.

"Furthermore, I've only recently (last night, in fact) finally felt the enormity of emotions about my wife cheating on me."

I can very much relate to this. When my husband first began to act on his poly, I didn't realize that I was operating in pure survival mode. Everything I did was out of fear and the desperate desire to keep my marriage from imploding. I told myself everything was going to be okay, and I acted like it was, and I tamped down all the hurt, fear, and grief to deal with later when I felt "safer". How do I know this? Because eventually, that stuff don't stay tamped down anymore. It came burbling up in a big flood about 4 months into my husband's first relationship. The really hard thing was that my husband was totally surprised and I felt bad about melting down- like I'd been lying up until then that I was okay. But I hadn't been lying, or even intentionally avoiding my issues. It just took me a while to understand enough to even feel what I was feeling.- almost like post-traumatic stress.

I too still find it very hard to put any responsibility or negative emotion onto my husband. I love him so much. Love is supposed to want someone to be happy and fulfilled. And so I do divert those feelings to his OSO (when he had one) or often even to myself (was there something I could have done to prevent all this?), rather than feel horrible about the one I love.

"If I can make the vee work for me (and for the OSO), then that's what I'd want to do. And I think I've made significant strides towards making it work. As the adage goes, "it feel so close, yet so far away". I think my remaining two hangups are:
1. I get jealous when my wife spends time with her OSO during times that I consider to be our time together [my wife+me].
2. I am hurt when the OSO is overly private or keeps secrets from me (even though I recognize they may be personal to her)."

So, great job identifying what you'd want to do- your first choice (so to speak), and the main issues keeping you from that goal. I think I need to run off and write something like this for myself.

It seems to me that the issues you have are not insurmountable. The first one needs to be shared with your wife. Tell her the exact example you mention in this post and how you would have liked it to happen instead. Carve out special time that is just for you two and put some guidelines in place so that the OSO doesn't creep in. This is a totally reasonable thing to ask for and expect to get. You are not being selfish. You are asking for your needs to be met. In addition, you may want to encourage your wife to give the same thing to your OSO- time together NOT talking about or focusing on you. From what you've described the OSO may be wandering into your alone time with your wife because hers is always being invaded by you in spirit as well. This is really on your wife to correct, as she is the one with a relationship with you both.

The second may be a little tougher. I would say share it with the OSO if you can, and explain how you felt about the photo thing. I often felt the same way with my husband's OSO (especially since I was sharing the most important, private, intimate, special thing in my life with her – My Husband.

I would say this about declaring these as "your two remaining hang-ups". If you are anything like me, when I wipe away two hang-ups, four more move in to take their place. Heck. My hang-ups have hang-ups. Things you haven't even encountered yet are going to bother you in the future. I'm not saying that to depress you, just to prepare you.

As for being hurt by your wife's double-relationship standard, I think you are right to feel that way. She is asking you to do something extremely difficult out of love that she isn't willing to do herself. Ouch! That isn't fair. And in my opinion, it isn't right. It seems to indicate a lack of being able to put herself in your shoes- also known as empathy. Have you asked her the questions you pose below?
* If having an OSO (like my wife has) is ok and wonderful, then why won't she [my wife] let me have an OSO as well?
* Or if having an OSO is wrong, then why does my wife have one?
Her answer seems to indicate that she truly believes she could not handle you in a poly relationship- that it would destroy what you have. How then can she expect you to handle it and for it not to destroy what you have? I don't understand.

So glad to hear the children are doing well, and that they love your wife's OSO. My own children are teens and we told them all along the way about the poly thing because we knew they would know something was going on and that their fears would probably be worse than the truth. They are both weathering it very well, I am happy to say.

"But if we need to divorce (because I can't handle the vee), then I'd be breaking up our family. It really sucks."

I am in the same position, and it makes me wonder how all this got to be on my head? Because I was a committed, loyal, loving, monogamous wife for 20 years, now I have to live with something incredibly hard for me to navigate, or I can choose something else and maybe (no guarantees) find a new happiness but make everyone I love now miserable. Yeah, it sucks. How did love end up failing me like this when it was the one thing I was so sure of for the last 20 years? It makes me begin to question everything else I've ever felt sure of.

The ultimate question for you and I is, I think, can we do this and will it be worth it if we do?
I wish I knew the answer.

Personally, I think I have decided for myself to stay in, loving my husband, as best I can for as long as I can until I can't anymore. When I think about enduring poly for the next 20-40 years, I freak out. When I think about loving my husband today, and tomorrow, I feel happy and hopeful.

Happiness and hope to you as well.

[Lemondrop]

Hello, I don't post often as I'm exploring other aspects of my relationships right now...however....I've been married 20 years, and we've been poly for 2. (Second anniversary next month...woohooo!) I went into poly with my eyes open, but I later found out that Easy (my husband) and Asha (our girlfriend) had been building a (chaste) relationship for years. I felt betrayed, like they had cheated, but I have to admit that if we had never become poly it would probably not have bothered me. He was allowed to love others, but the *sex* was *sacred*. <insert wry self-deprecation here>

Anyway, can I just say, you have the option of requesting your wife's full attention when you feel that you should be having intimate time? It might not have occurred to her that she was neglecting you. The worst that she can say is no, and then you can open a dialogue into why not and what is reasonable. *Not* saying anything just leaves you open to building resentment, and believe me, you don't want to be around when built-up resentment explodes. <shudder> I've found over the last two years that often, when I don't speak up, my partners have no idea that their behavior looked to me like rejection. It's hard to get around that "but if they love me they'll ask" mindset, but the simple fact of the matter is that people think differently, and no one wins if you keep your needs secret. Just ask. And, honestly, it is *your* responsibility to ask for what you need...you're the only one who has a vested interest in getting it. :)

Second, I'm seeing red flags in the way that you say your girlfriend is waiting for you in case you change your mind about being mono and that you might divorce your wife. Then you wonder why she's having a hard time with jealousy? She has no idea where she stands with you. She does love you, her OSO does not replace you, and it would hurt her if you left regardless of who else she's dating. It would be kinder if you decided what you're doing. And the idea that you could "live happily ever after" with this other girl? That's NRE and complete lack of history talking. Of course she looks like she's easier. You haven't built a history with her, you haven't paid bills and raised kids and gone through tragedies with her. Yes, you might live happily ever after with her--but I would like to put forward that you have *no idea* yet whether that's true. You haven't gone through the bad times with her yet.

Third, your kids know. Surprise! I *never* told my 12 year old. She told me. They have eyes, and unless you're extraordinarily careful, they pick up things. So be careful who you introduce into the household.

It's hard to adjust to poly, but feeling jealous and insecure doesn't necessarily mean you're mono. I still feel scared every time I can't figure out where I stand. I still feel insecure every time that Easy and Asha "click" and I can see how alike they are. I still feel rejected every time they do an activity that I wanted to be a part of. I was in tears two weeks ago because I asked to be included and Easy forgot. Human beings mess up. All relationships have hard bits. But you know what makes it all worthwhile to me? Looking at Easy and seeing the smile in his eyes when he and Asha are pushing each other's buttons. It took me a while to figure it out, but I *like* seeing Easy happy when he's around Asha, even when it's hard for me. She's filling a need for him. I sincerely hope he's filling a need for her.

[Polymonial]

Thank you again for everyone's kind words.

Anyway, can I just say, you have the option of requesting your wife's full attention when you feel that you should be having intimate time? It might not have occurred to her that she was neglecting you. [...] *Not* saying anything just leaves you open to building resentment, and believe me, you don't want to be around when built-up resentment explodes. <shudder> I've found over the last two years that often, when I don't speak up, my partners have no idea that their behavior looked to me like rejection.

I agree. When I discussed that event to my wife and her OSO, they were both surprised that it had such an impact on me. I don't think they thought anything of it at the time.

That said, I *did* tell my wife that I wanted her attention at the time, but she told me she was busy. That's why I tried to participate in the activity instead. I guess I could have put more emphasis on my needs to be with her, and that I considered it to be our time together... it's just a fine line between speaking up and sparking an argument, or hurting the OSO's feelings if I pull my wife away from her.

I believe economists call this the principle of "scarce resources", i.e. my wife's time and attention. Both me and the OSO wanted my wife's attention, my wife probably wanted some time to herself as well to scan some photos, and there just wasn't enough of her to go around. Couple that with me feeling a bit low/neglected from previous events that week, and I just didn't handle it well.

SPEAK UP. <-- I have to remember this, particularly when I'm feeling a bit down in the first place.

Second, I'm seeing red flags in the way that you say your girlfriend is waiting for you in case you change your mind about being mono and that you might divorce your wife. Then you wonder why she's having a hard time with jealousy? She has no idea where she stands with you. [...] It would be kinder if you decided what you're doing.

Just to clarify, she's definitely not a girlfriend. We only went out on a couple dates, and even then, we only talked... didn't even hold hands. And the jealousy started before the first date. My wife thought we'd just go out for a cup of coffee to start, and she was even giving me hints on what to say, how to act, to brush my teeth :rolleyes:, etc. so as not to scare her away. (Is my breath really THAT bad? :confused:) But when she found out we set up a dinner date, that was way faster than she expected, and she got scared.

Furthermore, I was feeling a bit like a puppet on a string being controlled on how to date... briefed on what to say, do, act, given a couple jokes to say, etc. lol I guess it's kind of funny thinking about it now. Poly relationships definitely result in strange situations... great material for movies and sitcoms.

For example, my wife was upset that I was out on my first date so long, and that I didn't at least call or text her in the middle of the date to let her know how it was going. I told her: "I'm sorry... I'm just not used to texting my wife in the middle of a first date." And then I'd hear what I just said, and we'd both laugh (or groan).

In any case, I'm not seeing this other woman anymore. No more dates. I want to make my marriage work (poly it may be) if possible. And even if it doesn't work, I'm not convinced that this other woman is the right one for me. Instead, the bigger question is: do I really need to be in a mono relationship more than I want to stay with my wife? That's what I'm struggling with, but I'm making a conscious decision to put my heart with my wife, seek counseling (because I really DO need help to get over the feelings of betrayal from her cheating), and hope for the best.

And the idea that you could "live happily ever after" with this other girl? That's NRE and complete lack of history talking. Of course she looks like she's easier. You haven't built a history with her, you haven't paid bills and raised kids and gone through tragedies with her. Yes, you might live happily ever after with her--but I would like to put forward that you have *no idea* yet whether that's true. You haven't gone through the bad times with her yet.

Again I agree. And I would never want to leave my wife for another woman... that's way too of an ephemeral thing, or as you put it, driven entirely by NRE. That's why I waited for my emotions to settle, got closure with the other woman, and was able to decide to continue trying to save my relationship with my wife.

That said, it's still a very fragile relationship, at least for me. I'm not comfortable committing to it yet because I know I'm not ready, and that my emotions have flip-flopped several times over the past two months since my wife first told me about her OSO and asked for us to be poly.

[Carma]

"But if we need to divorce (because I can't handle the vee), then I'd be breaking up our family. It really sucks."

I am in the same position, and it makes me wonder how all this got to be on my head? Because I was a committed, loyal, loving, monogamous wife for 20 years, now I have to live with something incredibly hard for me to navigate, or I can choose something else and maybe (no guarantees) find a new happiness but make everyone I love now miserable. Yeah, it sucks. ]How did love end up failing me like this when it was the one thing I was so sure of for the last 20 years? It makes me begin to question everything else I've ever felt sure of.
----------------------------


I felt this way, but I was the one falling in love with a second person!!!

Love failed me. I loved my husband. I had been a good wife, faithful and dedicated, for 8 years. I NEVER saw this one coming. At the time I was very religious, and I kept praying not to love the other man. I could not understand why god would do this to me. God is love? Why was I so confused? I tried to believe it was just infatuation, but it wasn't -- it was undeniably love. This was not some stranger; he was my neighbor, my friend. He was hurting and all I wanted was to make his life better in any and every way I could. I tried to see where my marriage had gone wrong -- but it hadn't; I still loved my husband very much. He was everything a husband should be, and more. I kept thinking "Follow your heart" but MY heart was betraying me.

Sometimes it feels like it still is. Poly is HARD. But denying my heart was worse. So I'm finding support here in this forum, where I'm not alone, my heart is not some crazy defective mutant, and I can get another perspective on love and relationships, other than the conventional view that said I was terrible and wrong and selfish and foolish. What a new thought, that I didn't have to be "torn between two lovers" -- I didn't have to pick one or the other, I could actually have a heart big enough to love two!

Thanks to all of you here. I'd be lost without you!!!

[Magdlyn]

Hey this is a really great conversation. Hugs and respect to you all.

I just noticed some of you dont seem to know how to quote others properly.

If you click on quote instead of reply, the entire post you want to reference will show up in your reply box. Anything you don't want to quote you can highlight and backspace to delete. Surround the bits you do want to quote with quote tags. [ quote ] at the beginning and [ /quote ] at the end (without the spaces). Voila, you'll get those nice neat boxes of quotes.

[Lemondrop]

That said, I *did* tell my wife that I wanted her attention at the time, but she told me she was busy. That's why I tried to participate in the activity instead. I guess I could have put more emphasis on my needs to be with her, and that I considered it to be our time together... it's just a fine line between speaking up and sparking an argument, or hurting the OSO's feelings if I pull my wife away from her.

I believe economists call this the principle of "scarce resources", i.e. my wife's time and attention. Both me and the OSO wanted my wife's attention, my wife probably wanted some time to herself as well to scan some photos, and there just wasn't enough of her to go around. Couple that with me feeling a bit low/neglected from previous events that week, and I just didn't handle it well.

SPEAK UP. <-- I have to remember this, particularly when I'm feeling a bit down in the first place.

The more you practice, the easier it gets, but yes, sometimes situations like this one still happen. I feel for you; I empathize, really, because it still happens, even though we're in a better place now.

... And the jealousy started before the first date.... But when she found out we set up a dinner date, that was way faster than she expected, and she got scared....

In any case, I'm not seeing this other woman anymore. No more dates. I want to make my marriage work (poly it may be) if possible. And even if it doesn't work, I'm not convinced that this other woman is the right one for me. Instead, the bigger question is: do I really need to be in a mono relationship more than I want to stay with my wife? That's what I'm struggling with, but I'm making a conscious decision to put my heart with my wife, seek counseling (because I really DO need help to get over the feelings of betrayal from her cheating), and hope for the best.

What I was trying to put forward is that I think the jealousy was probably more based in fear...that she doesn't know if you're going to stick with her. Whether you leave her to be alone, whether you leave her to be with someone else, essentially she's scared that you're going to be gone. I needed endless reassurance from my husband that he wasn't replacing me; and I still get upset when Sunday (my boyfriend) seems interested in another woman, because I'm still not sure where I stand with him. This is, of course, a decision that you have to come to in your own time, but I was hoping to offer some insight into why she might be acting jealous.

That said, it's still a very fragile relationship, at least for me. I'm not comfortable committing to it yet because I know I'm not ready, and that my emotions have flip-flopped several times over the past two months since my wife first told me about her OSO and asked for us to be poly.

Yes, two months is a very short time, even though I'm absolutely positive that it feels like an eternity to you. I think I remember every second of every minute of that first few months. I think that it will help you ground yourself if you make sure that you're taking some time just to take care of you. (Feels weird giving that advice to a guy...I'm usually saying it to a woman... :) ) I found that I was able to relax a bit more when I let myself do something I enjoy when I started to feel wound up. Mostly I go for coffee...I'm such a hedonist. :P But when I feel that resentment building, I go out and make sure I do something fun just for me.

[Polymonial]

It's been six months since we opened up our marriage, and over three months since my last post on this forum. I want to let everyone know how we're doing.

WE'RE DOING GREAT!

Don't get me wrong, we've definitely had some rocky times along the way, mostly due to me in my conversion from mono to poly. We've discussed divorce on multiple occasions, mostly due to the stress or complications of this new style of relationship, of which neither of us had any past experience. But we loved each other every step of the way and worked through it. I've also become increasingly open to others about our new lifestyle, and I love our vee tribe... we're great together.

We're all 100% committed to each other and practice polyfidelity: we're all equal primaries, live together, lifetime LTRs, and even raise our kids together. It's quite amazing and wonderful.

Along the way, I dated a few people and fell in madly love with one that thought she was poly, but after we fell in love with each other, she realized that she couldn't stand the thought of sharing me. We're still best friends and talk every day, and I would gladly be more with her again if/when she's ready in the future. And honestly, even just as friends, it's wonderful the type of loving relationship that we can share.

So that's where we're at now... I think we're finally done with (my) drama and focusing on living our lives as a polyfi family together. I love my tribe, my kids, my friends, and my new life. And if I meet someone special that's interested in joining me as a primary partner in our tribe, then I could gladly accept her in and commit to her... but I'm also happy even if that never happens.

Thank you again for everyone's help and support on this forum as I went through those very rocky first few months. It was tremendously valuable!

-- Polymonial

[Mari]

Wow - Congrats.. As I'm at the very early stages with my husband it is certainly encouraging.

Thank you for this update. :)

Mari

[nycindie]

WE'RE DOING GREAT!

Awesome! <gives high five>

And if I meet someone special that's interested in joining me as a primary partner in our tribe, then I could gladly accept her in and commit to her... but I'm also happy even if that never happens.

Just curious (didn't re-read entire thread) - are you open to another man joining the tribe (if your wife wanted to be with one)? I am always curious about group living.

[Polymonial]

It's almost that time to get my one-year chip... I've been successfully poly for almost 12 months now. It was a wild ride in the beginning: opening up our marriage and transitioning from mono to poly. I had a number of emotional ups and downs, and I was completely innocent and naive. (Ok... maybe not "innocent" on all things, but definitely naive on polyamory. ;))

The support and advise from this forum helped me though my toughest times, in the very beginning. Since then, I've grown to truly appreciate poly relationships of all types: not just romantic relationships but also friendships that can now be closer than previously possible, somewhere between friends and lovers. Thank you for all your help and support.

Oh, and to answer nycindie's question:

are you open to another man joining the tribe (if your wife wanted to be with one)? I am always curious about group living.

Absolutely, I'd be open to any type of relationships that form within our group, so long as they're done openly and consistent with our poly agreement. And of course, I'm also open to how our poly agreement itself will undoubtedly evolve as our family, personal needs, and desires evolve. Personally, I love the idea of group living... that's my favorite form of poly. :)