Losing the Battles so I can win the war....

[whatamIdoing]

I think I"m going to need a place to put all my stuff... my thoughts and feelings and what happens...

I need to keep this part of my life here... for several reasons...

Yesterday I kissed hubby (B) goodbye and got in my car and drove 2 hours to see my new friend (J). It was our first time together since we decided to try to have a relationship and it was an almost spur of the moment meeting. I asked him on Wednesday for Friday and he said yes. We were supposed to have the day together on January 8th as our first date just for the day but instead our first date turned out to be an overnight....

oh the joy
oh the fear
oh the nerves

Let's start with the fact that B is really struggling with this. I have never had a friend like J and B is "letting" me explore it but he's hurting emotionally. He is feeling bad about himself and he thinks I no longer want him that now that I am skinny I want skinny guys. this is so not true... but no matter what I say he will not believe me... so I just have to wait him out...

Sour Girl very wisely told me I would have to lose some battles to win the war... it was very sage and helpful advice. I did not understand it totally until this morning as I was getting ready to drive home to my husband.


And I wasn't sure what I wanted... I know more now and I see now that I need a place to put my thoughts, feelings and ideas. And while I am not keeping it a secret... this part of me is not easily found as I use a different screen name here than anywhere else... so I can really write what I need to... my non poly friends don't really get it. And I'm trying not to be excited and obsessive with B about it.. but that is HARD... I want him to share in my joy and excitement and HE CAN'T. He can't be happy for me while he's hurting and scared for himself. But he's trying to let me do this and I know he's hoping that it won't be a long term thing.

I got to J around 2:30 pm and we talked.... and watched some tv... no kiss no cuddle... nothing that would indicate we were anything but casual friends...

We managed to make some dinner and eat and then sat on the couch talking for quite a while... tentatively starting to have some physical contact... more than casual friends... less than lovers....

We talked about B's comfort level... how he is not coping with this well. how we need to wait for him to be more comfortable.... we talked about where we are and what we want... at this point we have a FWB relationship... not putting any time frames or limits on it... we LIKE each other, but he would like to find a woman to build a life with who could deal with me.... that would be his ideal... and getting B to deal with him would be my ideal.

Amazingly enough B needed to call and it was about computers and we both rushed to J's computer and looked up his new computer and were talking to him and all three of us were laughing and it was PERFECT... my DH on the phone and my "boy toy" with me all of us comfortable and relaxed.

That little perfection lasted a few minutes....

When B got off the phone J said how fine he was with B calling as needed.... and how he understands that my family will intrude somewhat on our time but on the other hand my family has to accept that occasionally he will intrude on my family time.... and that will work... for me and J... B is not ready even for that...

J and I ended up watching movies while cuddled up on his bed... NOT knowing what would happen I was prepared for almost everything but getting comfy and casual so I ended up in one of his tee-shirts... we cuddled and watched movies and talked and talked and talked till 4:30 a.m. and finally I said "J, I need SOME sleep shut up"....

we talked A LOT about B... about how right now we have to talk about it and let him find his comfort... how if he can't find it we will have to not have visits. J said he would never want to give up our emails... I thought that a bit funny as they are sporadic and not anything other than friendly chit chat most of the time... Our connection is voice and in person...

We talked about how it's our brains that connect not a physical connection... and yet when we cuddle we fit well...

Amazingly enough to me, even though our initial thoughts on what our relationship would be was NSA sex... we have opted to table that based on B's comfort level. We talked about how we can wait till B is ready for us to progress (within reason and limits that have not been determined yet)... and today B tells me he's not sure he will ever be ready for me to have sex with J.... he said he is fine with my visiting J and spending time with him but my swinger husband is not sure he can cope with my sleeping with J.

So here I am, laying in a bed with a man in a tee shirt, bra and panties and he is in a tee shirt and we just cuddle... NOT a kiss to be had... not a sexual touch at all... it was sheer heaven for me....

I text B at 10 to tell him my cell is at 36% and dying.... and give him J's number if he needs me....(at J's suggestion)

B texts me a few times... but my phone has been shut off to conserve power so he texts J stuff indicating he thinks he is losing me. That J won.... it was comical to us... and yet tragic at the same time as J knows that my pain for B will affect us. He is getting that while he does not have to have a friendship with B they have to be civil and they have to respect each other....

J texts him back a few polite messages that I'm staying because the weather is a bit bad (wet roads under 30 degrees means black ice....) this was around midnight and says to me that eventually B will have to learn that while he can access me when I am with him, that a time each evening when I stay over will become, NO LONGER taking TEXTS time... seemed fair to me... a few more texts came in and J ignored them till after the movie was over...

J is being very respectful of B's needs and yet also knows he needs to set a few of his own boundaries. At one point we had talked about spending the weekend of February 18-20 since B is going to a race weekend..... but B on Friday specifically asked me not to spend that weekend with him since it's his birthday weekend and he wanted me to go racing with him but that's so boring for me to watch them race I declined. I explained to J that B did not want me with him on his birthday weekend and while I think it's foolishness, J said he understands... I think we are both a little disappointed.

I fear that since most of his racing days (which are the days I can go see J) are not overnights that we will have very few overnights

I feel asleep around 4:30-5 a.m. I awoke around 8 and noted that at 7:30 B sent me a text that he would be home in about an hour... he had gone with his female friend to drop off her horse... it was a long drive and she really hit on him... B tells me that jokingly while he was driving he suggested she give him a BJ and she did... then she wanted to get a hotel room to fuck... and he was totally turned off... she is just so crass for him... had she suggested a hotel room to get some sleep he would have gone for it...

Yes B is having a huge double standard.. and J and I know it...and yet we can deal with it for right now....

anyway after I got dressed I woke J to walk me to my car (I did not want to walk to my car in the back lot alone) and he pulled me back to bed for a cuddle... I kissed him on the cheek a few times and we cuddled a brief time... he got up got dressed walked me to my car, we hugged and kissed goodbye ( a very chaste few kisses) and I headed home. J sent me a text asking me to let him know that I got home safely... i thought that very sweet...

all in all our visit was spectacular... we had fun,yet we were respectful of B's needs. we talked a lot, our connection grew deeper..we seem to be totally on the same wavelength about what we want from our relationship and yet both are aware that we are going day by day to see how it plays out...

We won't see each other again till January 8th and that is just a day trip for me I can't spend the night. I'm not going to stress over the inability to stay over as often as I would like at least not at this point...

[NeonKaos]

I haven't read this closely, but at some point I will go back and do so.

It sounds like you are putting a lot of effort into this whole "polyamory" business, and I am sure you will benefit from the personal growth experience this is providing. Remember that the "war" you will be winning is that you will be at peace and at ease with YOURSELF, and you will gain by maximizing the advantages of all the relationships you find yourself in from now on. You seem to be sincerely dedicated to treating yourself and your SO's respectfully, which is all that anyone can ask.

[Fidelia]

I've been following your thread on the New to Poly board, and I want to say that I really admire the way you and J are working together to show B respect, support and consideration as he works through his fear issues. Both your partners are lucky to have you. :)

That said, something in this post really triggered me, and I need to comment.

B tells me that jokingly while he was driving he suggested she give him a BJ and she did... then she wanted to get a hotel room to fuck...
This is complete and total BULLSHIT on B's part, and ridiculously UNFAIR to you and J. You can't pursue a relationship, after all this time in a "poly" marriage, but he can sex up his friends whenever he feels like? :mad: Aww HELL NO! *SNAP*

If it were me, this would be the end of the line for the double standard. I would require my husband to choose from either:
A: the end of all extramarital relations so that he could concentrate fully on overcoming his irrational fears, which I would support in the short term by refraining from same, or
B: STFU about his irrational and unfounded fears and allow me the same freedom he has enjoyed for some time now. Perhaps seeing me go out with my bf and come home to him a few times would likely go a long way to calm his fears.
But there is no way in hell I would continue to be one in my marriage doing the lion's share of the work to address HIS problem.

[whatamIdoing]

I haven't read this closely, but at some point I will go back and do so.

It sounds like you are putting a lot of effort into this whole "polyamory" business, and I am sure you will benefit from the personal growth experience this is providing. Remember that the "war" you will be winning is that you will be at peace and at ease with YOURSELF, and you will gain by maximizing the advantages of all the relationships you find yourself in from now on. You seem to be sincerely dedicated to treating yourself and your SO's respectfully, which is all that anyone can ask.


thanks... I'm just doing the best I can

[whatamIdoing]

I've been following your thread on the New to Poly board, and I want to say that I really admire the way you and J are working together to show B respect, support and consideration as he works through his fear issues. Both your partners are lucky to have you. :)

That said, something in this post really triggered me, and I need to comment.


This is complete and total BULLSHIT on B's part, and ridiculously UNFAIR to you and J. You can't pursue a relationship, after all this time in a "poly" marriage, but he can sex up his friends whenever he feels like? :mad: Aww HELL NO! *SNAP*

If it were me, this would be the end of the line for the double standard. I would require my husband to choose from either:
A: the end of all extramarital relations so that he could concentrate fully on overcoming his irrational fears, which I would support in the short term by refraining from same, or
B: STFU about his irrational and unfounded fears and allow me the same freedom he has enjoyed for some time now. Perhaps seeing me go out with my bf and come home to him a few times would likely go a long way to calm his fears.
But there is no way in hell I would continue to be one in my marriage doing the lion's share of the work to address HIS problem.


B is struggling so hard to be fair... he has bad self image and no self esteem and he thinks maybe he might want to go back to a conventional marriage and stop swinging... we are just learning about Poly to be honest...

he is trying to let me do this...

another post to explain tonite's mess is forthcoming

[whatamIdoing]

well today has been a struggle.

B is soul searching... and we are stressing about it.

went to a party where a lot of the folks KNOW J. they also know I am starting a relationship with him and wanted to know how yesterday went... B was stressed... he's wondering now if he even wants to continue swinging or exploring the open marriage thing... Poly... well we don't even really mention that...

then it gets bad... I fell asleep on the couch with B trying to talk to me... then I hear my cell phone get a text... and it's midnight... and it's J. J never texts me... and he asks me to call him...

I call him and he is trying to ask if it's OK if he takes me away from B at this point of OUR saturday night. which was very very respectful... and B misunderstood it... it was hard... he stormed out. I had to hang up on J then calm B down and then I called J back...

J needed to vent and rant about the gaming world... it's a valid rant but not on a saturday night at midnight when he's had too much to drink....

oh this is so complicated... why does it have to hurt everyone.

I feel torn... it's my time with B. I was with J yesterday and yet he is very upset and needs to talk to me... it's the FIRST time he's needed to talk to me since we started this... and I could not be there for him...

[Fidelia]

whatamIdoing:

I want to be really, really clear on this point: however you want to handle your situation is 100% your business, and NOMB. I have great respect for the kind and considerate way you and J are growing your relationship. I really do.

But from your descriptions of the situation, your husband seems to want little more than "to have his Kate and Edith, too" while you tenderly care for his insecurities and fears. And the basic unfairness of that is a trigger for me. I acknowledge this as my trigger and my problem, and certainly don't mean to imply that what I think should impact your situation in any way.

I just needed to express my outrage, that's all. Whatever you decide to do will be the right course of action, I'm sure.

I sincerely wish you the very best as you make your way forward.

[FitChick]

It seenms to me that B needs to work on his own issues,that aside from the poly stuff,there are other things going on,fear of abandonment etc,that maybe he needs to talk to someone,other than you about.
Something I have learnt to do is when my bf is with his ex wife,or ex gf and their respective children,(we have a boundary of no texting during this time),is send him an email articulating my thoughts(sometimes its more than one) that he can read and respond to later,that way he knows how I've been feeling without interrupting his allocated time with the other important people in his life. It took some time to negotiate this but it has got to the point where it is working well,and is keeping everybody calm..

[whatamIdoing]

B is having major issues. he has self-esteem problems. he feels ugly and unlovable since he has lost so much weight and his skin is so saggy. I get that I have the same problem. I would love for him to get some therapy but I am not going to be able to force it with him sadly.

I hope that after J's drunken ramblings last night B will see more and more that I slot J in my life in a very different place than I slot him. I think it will take time love and tenderness (to steal from an old Michael Bolton song)... for B to feel more secure. I am trying with him.

If B has the right to contact me when I'm with J (these are J's boundaries btw) then J feels he has the right to contact me when I am with B. This is within reason. I understand why J needed me last night... there were only a few friends he felt close enough to that understood the issue... B understands the issue... but not the need for J to rant to me at midnight....

J was not very articulate in his asking if it was ok for him to take me away from my B time... it just was a communication issue....

B is trying.
B feels really really bad that he's being such a jerk about this. He knows he is having a double standard. He knows he is not being fair.

I have told B over and over and over again, if he can't deal with this then we can leave the lifestyle... and then he says NO... he's torn. so he knows he has to let me do what he's doing but he's hurting over it and it's my choice not to make him "push through" this pain to get to the other side where he can feel more secure in my love and our marriage...

it's weird to me... he's perfectly fine with my being friends with J. he has no problem with my talking to him, seeing him, spending alone time with him... his big issue is that he doesn't think he can deal with me sleeping with him....

that's weird for someone coming from the swing lifestyle... it makes no sense to me at all.... and yet J and I are willing to respect this..... I am not sure how long J will be willing to respect this need of B's but J and I are taking this day by day....

today will be ok.. B has left to go racing. I am home alone (with the adult children) all day.... I will have time to call J later and we can talk for a few hours without feeling like we are impacting on B. IN addition, J will be sober... that will help.

more later as I continue to ramble....

I truly truly appreciate everyone's input and support. and YES I know B is being a JERK and I KNOW that J calling me drunk is NOT a good thing...

More and MORE I am very glad J is 2 hours away.....

[NeonKaos]

I don't know if this is obvious to you or not, but if ANYONE calls at ANY time and it's inconvenient for ANY reason, you can say "I can't talk right now; I'll call you back, ok?"

BOTH of your men need to just grow up and deal with that. That is how it WORKS with the phone. This business with micro-managing "This is B's time, this is J's time" is fine when it comes to things like over-nights or plans that would require you to be in two different places at once, but since you're talking about "Losing battles" so you can "win the war", consider also CHOOSING your battles. Is this mincy stuff about the phone really so devastating that everyone has to agree to a PLAN about it? If it is a "war" you plan to WIN (and I understand that you're using the "battle/war" analogy as a euphemism for "short-term/long-term"), then everyone is going to have to learn to deal with mundane, every-day things such as brushing teeth, taking out the trash, and answering the telephone. You wouldn't agonize over "rules" about brushing your teeth around either of these men, so why not try using that comparison as a tool to establish a neutral, non-threatening mindset around answering the phone and saying "Sorry, can't talk now. I'll call you back."

GAUD! I'm reading what I write and I cannot BELIEVE that GROWN MEN (and women, too) need these things POINTED OUT to them!!! I have to end this post because my cynicism and sarcasm is boiling up inside of me and about to spew out all over my keyboard.

[NeonKaos]

ETA:

I realized it might have came across as though I was calling you "stupid" or something, but if anything, I was calling your MEN'S behaviour "stupid" about the phone.

I added the "and women too" just so it wouldn't seem like I was being sexist. This is not a "men vs. women" issue, it's more like an "adult behaviour vs. childish behaviour" issue. I realize that it doesn't make any of you stupid or evil human beings.

It's ridiculous when the simple, mundane, maintenance-type things we do in every-day life become points of contention just because one is in "a relationship".

[Ariakas]

then it gets bad... I fell asleep on the couch with B trying to talk to me... then I hear my cell phone get a text... and it's midnight... and it's J. J never texts me... and he asks me to call him...

I call him and he is trying to ask if it's OK if he takes me away from B at this point of OUR saturday night. which was very very respectful... and B misunderstood it... it was hard... he stormed out. I had to hang up on J then calm B down and then I called J back...

Was he more upset that he was trying to have a conversation with you, and you fell asleep, but when the bf calls you jump? Sorry but that isn't respectful. If it was "your" night, and he was texting about nothing important, than he was disrespecting your time. For that matter, you kind of disrespected him too by falling asleep on one, and jumping for the other.

You guys are new to this, this type of thing is VERY poignant in his head. He needs to feel his time is special and completely validated without interruption. Its polite and will likely get better with time as he finds his footing. The double standard is mentioned below, I agree, it is a double standard, so hopefully you can find a solution to make it work (see below)

Initially having set times, especially recovery "talk" times might work really well. If your hubby is someone who needs clear lines of "battle" as it were, its YOUR job to maintain that. If he is an open minded person, you can constantly renegotiate those lines as he gets more comfortable.


J needed to vent and rant about the gaming world... it's a valid rant but not on a saturday night at midnight when he's had too much to drink....

Especially when the conversation was about absolutely nothing important.

If B has the right to contact me when I'm with J (these are J's boundaries btw) then J feels he has the right to contact me when I am with B. This is within reason. I understand why J needed me last night... there were only a few friends he felt close enough to that understood the issue... B understands the issue... but not the need for J to rant to me at midnight....


Yes its a double standard, but B is having the problems with the relationship and trying. Have you thought of making dead times. Instead of the WHOLE night not being available to call, say "from 8 to 10 we would like time to ourselves" this concedes points for everyone.

I am with neon for the record, a midnight call is never acceptable, unless its a real emergency.

J is being a jerk, but as the hinge you could be making concessions to try and help him along. When you first taught your kid to swim, did you toss him in the water at the age of 1 without water wings and watch him flounder? (yes, I know some people do this, but I couldn't think of a clearer analogy) Help your husband along, come up with small concessions in either direction and ensure your husband knows these can be renogotiated. it sounds like your husband wants to try, but he is always being pushed.

Lastly, as for the self esteem. Has he sought couselling, they might be able to help with the esteem issues and having him see himself for more than a sack of flesh. Humans are far more complex and interesting than just their bodies.

I guess sort of lastly, you are all trying to make concessions, your are all trying to figure out your place in this new relationships structure, you are ALL making small mistakes that offend the others. If you can attack each mistake like a challenge in an RPG and just figure out concessions for everyone you will be a lot better off.

Ari

[whatamIdoing]

ETA:

I realized it might have came across as though I was calling you "stupid" or something, but if anything, I was calling your MEN'S behaviour "stupid" about the phone.

I added the "and women too" just so it wouldn't seem like I was being sexist. This is not a "men vs. women" issue, it's more like an "adult behaviour vs. childish behaviour" issue. I realize that it doesn't make any of you stupid or evil human beings.

It's ridiculous when the simple, mundane, maintenance-type things we do in every-day life become points of contention just because one is in "a relationship".


I hear you. Sometimes I feel like the only grown up in this mess.

It's so new to all of us...

with B and I being swingers, we always played together... occasionally I would encourage him to "go get her out of your system" never did it occur to me even that there was such a thing as a poly lifestyle.

B and I had our surgeries a little over a year ago. I am at goal and tiny now (so everyone keeps saying even if I dont' see it) down from nearly 300 pounds... B still has about 40 pounds to lose and he feels fat and ugly and unlovable. I know these are his issues and i can't fix him or that... but I can have empathy for his feelings.

but i digress... my point is this... J dated a married woman once before but I'm not sure her marriage was open or she was cheating. J has never been married and he's trying hard to respect B's marital rights as it were. I've never had two partners at once. Not male or female. I am not one to lie or cheat so it was never an option to have a relationship with J behind B's back.

J hates lies as much as I do and we both have said that lying is a reason to end the relationship... so we DO NOT LIE. I don't lie to B either although B has a tendency to have severe cases of "lies of omission" in the past... he is working on that.

Meanwhile B is trying to let this happen for me, J is trying to figure out where he fits into his "married girlfriend's life" and I'm trying to integrate two men into my life without having guidelines, boundaries or rules. it's all so new for ALL of us... NONE of us have ever done anything like this. NONE of us have ever CONSIDERED anything like this.... Playing was one thing. caring about my couple friends was a different thing.. they had a spouse to deal with their mishagosh... but NOW here.. we have a single male (and that is the sticking point for B) that has NO primary...

Yep that's what B keeps saying, his discomfort is mostly about the fact that J is single... He says if J was married he'd feel much better... But J is not married... and he does not have a girlfriend. He would like to find someone to get serious with and settle down with.. and he would prefer her to be able to deal with me as well... so clearly J knows that we are never going to have a primary type of relationship that we will always be secondaries to each other. (I hope i'm using the right words here I'm not sure what I should call it)....

J knows if B continues to not cope and adapt that we will have to end what hasn't even begun... and so do I.... but neither of us want that... and truthfully B does not either... not really. He wants me to be happy... but he can't be happy for me... and I want him to be happy for me.... and with me... and I can't get him to see that being with J makes me so excited to come home when I am done and be with him....

B has said that he will just step back and go away and let me have my thing with J... and I told him that when he tells me these things it sounds like he means he is leaving the marriage and me... and that's not what I want and if he feels he needs to do that then we can end our involvement with the lifestyle... then he says NO and he says that it's not about that.. that it's cause J is SINGLE... and then he says well maybe it's because of how I feel about myself right now and I don't want to end it for us if that's what it is...

He really is trying... I'm just over coddling... I guess cause i know my hubby.. he is very emotionally fragile... and yet the funny thing is, all my friends that know J and my husband as well apparently all told him "we take care of her...." he told me he was WARNED my my friends... "do not hurt her"
seems everyone but ME thinks me fragile emotionally... and yet more and more I am seeing that I am the strong one...

I'm in a free fall here. my head spins with the thoughts of what could be... how NICE this could be for ALL of us. J and I know what it could be and for right now what we want... Yes I'm starting to see already glimmers of what B is afraid of... and yes it worries me a bit...

maybe J is more needy than I thought... Maybe B's radar is accurate and I'm blinded by NRE... and don't see the red flags... I know that if I was single looking for a long term permanent type of primary relationship (read marriage) I would NOT even begin to consider J... but for my pleasant long term diversion... oh hell yeah!

I know that it all seems like so much work right now and reading all this must make some of you think "why is she bothering".... and "oh what a hot mess" and "she doesn't get it"... and maybe I don't... and maybe it is..

but I know me... and I know I have to play this out....

[Ariakas]

J may need his own primary.If he is involved with you and wants the "real" gf, he may be barking up the wrong tree. He has to realize he will be and is a secondary for a while at least.

I think some questions need to be asked

1 - Is J really non-monogamous
2 - if so, does he feel the need for a primary or understand what it means to be a secondary to someone.
3 - if not, then is he expecting you to be two peoples primaries. Thats where we get into murky waters. We do see people who can navigate the multiple primary scenario, but most run into plain old timing issues. If J wants a real, true to life primary, and you are busy with husband and kids, and family. As mono on this site has said, he finds it more reasonable to be someones secondary, as a monogamous person, because he has had all the marriage fixings before (please mono feel free to correct me)

I know that it all seems like so much work right now and reading all this must make some of you think "why is she bothering".... and "oh what a hot mess" and "she doesn't get it"... and maybe I don't... and maybe it is..

I am not :). Honestly we have seen bigger messes and lesser messes. Relationships by their very nature are hard. Bringing in more people extends that complication further. Non-monogamy is not the easiest relationship structure to be in. Its one you really have to believe in for yourself.

Honestly, this has been what, a few weeks right? I think there is a dose of patience required on everyones behalf. You are far from a critical breaking point. Maybe scale back the pace at which you guys are moving. I think B just needs to catchup. For the record, a good rule of thumb, if you see him catching up, don't make another leap, just stand there for a bit with him, enjoy the settling a bit, and then move forward. If he feels like you are doing this together he might make a lot more progress. :)

[whatamIdoing]

Was he more upset that he was trying to have a conversation with you, and you fell asleep, but when the bf calls you jump? Sorry but that isn't respectful. If it was "your" night, and he was texting about nothing important, than he was disrespecting your time. For that matter, you kind of disrespected him too by falling asleep on one, and jumping for the other.

yes! you are correct. this did upset him as he told his friend on the computer (and he showed me).. and you are all right! I did handle that very badly. of course both B and I were working on minimal to no amounts of sleep from the night before.. and to be honest... J's text was to see if I COULD call and he would have been fine had I NOT.... so the truth is I handled it very very badly... I disrespected my husband.... since my phone NEVER comes to my bedroom texting me at any time is acceptable... if i'm not there I don't get it...

You guys are new to this, this type of thing is VERY poignant in his head. He needs to feel his time is special and completely validated without interruption. Its polite and will likely get better with time as he finds his footing. The double standard is mentioned below, I agree, it is a double standard, so hopefully you can find a solution to make it work (see below)

it will get better... your pointing out to me how I was wrong is very helpful and very much will contribute to my handling it better next time.

Initially having set times, especially recovery "talk" times might work really well. If your hubby is someone who needs clear lines of "battle" as it were, its YOUR job to maintain that. If he is an open minded person, you can constantly renegotiate those lines as he gets more comfortable.

yep we have debriefings as it were... lots and lots and LOTS of talk time both B and J seem to need that right now.. as we find our footing and our places in this relationship quagmire... we are renegotiating over and over almost on an hourly basis... and I see B moving towards more and more acceptance... he even said to me this morning... "every time my comfort level starts to rise something like last night happens and pushes it right back down"... WOW! I HEAR YOU BABE... he asked me to please text him often today so he knows I care. I can do that. and I will.. he is so really trying



Especially when the conversation was about absolutely nothing important.

well it could have waited till this morning/afternoon but it's actually something that is pretty important to all of us... but still it could have waited.

Yes its a double standard, but B is having the problems with the relationship and trying. Have you thought of making dead times. Instead of the WHOLE night not being available to call, say "from 8 to 10 we would like time to ourselves" this concedes points for everyone.

yep that's exactly what J was saying on Friday night that after a certain time it's dead phone time... and yet last night he did not respect that.. of course he and I have not set those hours yet... and to be honest with him having so little face time access to me I do feel he should have a bit more leeway than B when it comes to phone access.... but truthfully unless his house had burned down or his mom had died a midnight phone call was unnecessary

J is being a jerk, but as the hinge you could be making concessions to try and help him along. When you first taught your kid to swim, did you toss him in the water at the age of 1 without water wings and watch him flounder? (yes, I know some people do this, but I couldn't think of a clearer analogy) Help your husband along, come up with small concessions in either direction and ensure your husband knows these can be renogotiated. it sounds like your husband wants to try, but he is always being pushed.

yes J was being a jerk last night... and i handled it so badly... I did. and I hurt B and lost all the progress we had made that day....

and yes B does want to try... he truly does... and I'm trying to find my lost little way here... we will talk about this more when he gets home tonite and hopefully when I talk to J this afternoon he is ready to hear that drunken midnight phone calls or texts are no longer acceptable...

Lastly, as for the self esteem. Has he sought couselling, they might be able to help with the esteem issues and having him see himself for more than a sack of flesh. Humans are far more complex and interesting than just their bodies.

yep this is true... and B feels he is not interesting to me or smart enough for me or educated enough for me... and it's not true. I don't care about those things.... hard to get B to see it however... B dropped out of 9th grade. he has never been able to pass the GED... he's tried several times before he met me... he thinks he's stupid.. he's not.. he's just not educated.


I guess sort of lastly, you are all trying to make concessions, your are all trying to figure out your place in this new relationships structure, you are ALL making small mistakes that offend the others. If you can attack each mistake like a challenge in an RPG and just figure out concessions for everyone you will be a lot better off.

Ari


and that is a GREAT way to present it to them... both of them do RPG although I do not...

thank you so very much for all your time and help it's truly appreciated!

[Ariakas]

yes J was being a jerk last night... and i handled it so badly... I did. and I hurt B and lost all the progress we had made that day....

Eeeeep I mean B in that statement, damn alphabet soup :p hahaha...sorry..

[rabbit]

Can you just turn off your phone after a certain time?

[whatamIdoing]

quoting this way since i can't seem to quote the actual texts for some reason

Eeeeep I mean B in that statement, damn alphabet soup hahaha...sorry..

well J was being a jerk too... B has NOT cornered the market on jerkiness... I wish I could come up with better references for them... both are very private and I don't want to have any searchables for them... so initials it must be...

Can you just turn off your phone after a certain time?

yes I could. but I have an emotionally disabled adult child so i make sure he can always reach me as needed.... truthfully my phone stays downstairs and we sleep upstairs... so had we gone to bed already we never would have heard the text or gotten the emails.

again I see now how badly I handled this... it was just a total shock to me that J would text me or ask for a phone call..

and to be honest... now that I think about this.. HUGE red flag for me... HUGE.... OMG I got an email from him when I got up this morning that he sent around 4 am that said :

wanted to talk to YOU first.....


and my spidey sense tingled... why am I suddenly the magical must talk to YOU first person.... part of me likes that as an ego stroke, part of me is scared.

he was mixing things up last night... talking about resiging his GM position (from our IRL gaming that we do which is how I met him and since next year I am the administrarive lead for the con I am technically involved in his choice... makes it awkward for me ) and OUR relationship all at the same time. Part of why I got him off the phone rather quickly was that he was making little to no sense to me... but the thing that concerned me was that he prides himself on being anti-social and not needing anyone and here he is at midnight... NEEDING and WANTING to talk to ME.... deep sigh... I like J. A LOT. He has his issues... don't we all... He likes ME... he told me he finds me "interesting"... and I know in HIS world and mind that is the highest compliment he can pay to anyone...

Last night set my guard up a few notches...

[whatamIdoing]

B is having a hard hard hard hard time....

My piss-poor handling of Saturday night's drunken texting and phone call is truly impacting negatively on how B is coping.

B has "decided" he no longer wants to be in the lifestyle... but when I say ok he backs down. Then he says "well I'm not going to do anything but you have to do what you have to do with J and I'm not going to stop you" so I say that I won't do that and he says that he will leave me if I don't do it because he knows if he asks me not to I will resent him.

He really does NOT want me to have an ongoing Poly relationship with J.
Even if my relationship with J impacts minimally on B. <insert banging head here>

He is torn. He says he can't deal with my sleeping with J then he turns around and says "just go fuck him and get it over with"... like that's going to make me not want to be with J... If I don't sleep with him I'd be fine with that... truly. I don't want to not be friends with J...at the minimum.

but watching B hurt... it's killing me.

He started this morning with a text to me that i got after the gym.. it said "make a date with J for the 31st"

The 31st is our wedding anniversary...

when I got a hold of him and asked i was told "it's my anniversary present to you".... UGH! if you want to give me a good present let me go see him on Presidents weekend when you are going away....

he just keeps going back and forth and back and forth... the minute I say OK we can end all our extra curricular activities he balks and says "well maybe not" BUT he wants me to NOT see J. It's all about J. he says why couldn't I pick someone BETTER... why couldn't I find someone who treats me better... J is what he is... a shithead boy (even at 37 I think him a boy for many reasons)

IF B can't deal I will end it with J... at least the physical part... I doubt J and I would stop being friends and I know J doesn't want that and I know B doesn't consider that a threat....

the problem is... the sleeping with J is the least of B's problems.... B can't even see that the issue is not that I want to sleep with J... the issue for me truly if I was B would have to be that I'm NOT willing to STOP having contact with J... because with J it's about his brain... it's a good connection...

I talked to J last night for an hour and I know he was in a bad place Saturday night with the drunken texts and emails and phone calls.. but after our nearly 1 hour talk last night I feel much better... and I'm learning to interpret him when he's like that... which helps. and B was not home yet from racing so that helps too...

I don't want to lie to B... but hearing that I'm talking to J or planning things with J makes B feel so insecure and unloved. He is so afraid of losing me...

I don't want him to hurt and yet I don't want to give up J and if I could have my way totally I would have B as my primary and J as my secondary and have everyone be happy and friendly. B does not want me to have an ongoing long term relationship with J... J made it clear he has no idea how long we will be together... and I'm ok with that... I think.... because I think we will play it out till it does NOT work for us any more... the problem will come in IF we have to artificially end it because B can't cope... Yes I am willing to go slow. I even told B we can keep it right where it is until he's ready for me to move forward... I told him I can have a relationship with J and not sleep with him... (and it's true I can and I would) but B is totally fixated on the fact that I WANT to sleep with J... umm ya know what... I like the cuddles I like watching TV with our legs all piled up and his arm across my lap my head on his shoulder... just talking watching tv and just BEING...

I'm screwed.

[NeonKaos]

I hate to say this, but it does not sound like your marriage is ready for poly.

The prevailing wisdom is that a relationship must be strong and healthy in order for either partner to become involved with someone else, otherwise the existing problems will get worse and not better.

You and your husband need to work things out within your OWN relationship before EITHER of you can be in another.

It sounds like swinging was working alright for the both of you. Is there some reason you can't simply go back to "just sex" with other partners?

[whatamIdoing]

I hate to say this, but it does not sound like your marriage is ready for poly.

The prevailing wisdom is that a relationship must be strong and healthy in order for either partner to become involved with someone else, otherwise the existing problems will get worse and not better.

You and your husband need to work things out within your OWN relationship before EITHER of you can be in another.

It sounds like swinging was working alright for the both of you. Is there some reason you can't simply go back to "just sex" with other partners?

deep sigh... I doubt my husband will ever be ready. truthfully. Our relationship is good.. it's the husband that's not. B just has to many issues... and this makes me so very sad.. because I would never want to have J as a primary. I would never want to be mono with J... I could easily be Mono with B... but he opened this can of worms and let me explore and now he wants to snap the lid shut and hell yeah I'm MAD.

we had a swing party last weekend... and he realized he no longer likes that either... so just sex with others won't work.... and truthfully I always needed a connection to folks so I was never a very good swinger...

sadly there is no fixing of B. He won't do the work.

[NeonKaos]

I could easily be Mono with B... but he opened this can of worms and let me explore and now he wants to snap the lid shut and hell yeah I'm MAD.


One good relationship is better than many crappy relationships.

[Breathesgirl]

Have you shown your hubby what you have written here? The good AND the bad?

Let him read it, know where your head and heart are at.

Sometimes we can tell them, preach at them, that we aren't going any where. We will still be here when they get home from a date (or us come home from a date) & they absolutely will NOT see the truth of it until it is proven over & over again.

Sometimes they just need to be told in a totally different way than what we've been using to tell them these things.

You've proven to him, at least in my eyes, that you will come home after a date, that things can be even HOTTER between the two of you BECAUSE OF this relationship with J.

This may not be a winnable war, unfortunately :(. I think you already know in your heart of hearts what your decision will be in this.

Unless you want to see B continually in pain you need to make that decision and stick with it.

Many hugs.

[whatamIdoing]

One good relationship is better than many crappy relationships.

true. very true. and the thing is while i could EASILY be Poly... I could just as EASILY be mono... I am flexible.. to a fault.

[whatamIdoing]

Have you shown your hubby what you have written here? The good AND the bad?

No. he is not GREAT at reading... I told him about this place but he's just currently shutting down on me....

Let him read it, know where your head and heart are at.

I have told him but i will ask him if he wants to read it... if he says yes I will show him. I love B so much... It kills me that I want (and maybe NEED) to do something that is hurting him so badly....

Sometimes we can tell them, preach at them, that we aren't going any where. We will still be here when they get home from a date (or us come home from a date) & they absolutely will NOT see the truth of it until it is proven over & over again.

and that's really what I want from B the chance to prove it over and over. Sadly my dates with J are LONG because we are 2 hours apart... so if I get tired I will stay... but I will always come home to B.... that's a given.

Sometimes they just need to be told in a totally different way than what we've been using to tell them these things.

I have this weird thought that I would like J to tell him these things too... but I don't think that will help.

You've proven to him, at least in my eyes, that you will come home after a date, that things can be even HOTTER between the two of you BECAUSE OF this relationship with J.

I would think so too.. but clearly not yet

This may not be a winnable war, unfortunately :(. I think you already know in your heart of hearts what your decision will be in this.

i know and it makes me SO FUCKING SAD... I want to cry at the lost chance to play this out with J... it's so not permanent with J... but it could be such fun for me... I know my choice is easy... it's not even something I have to think about. B comes first. But I will be mad and I will be angry and I will cry. and that still will hurt B. He wants me to just walk away from J and NOT CARE about him... and I can't. While I don't LOVE J I do LIKE him... a lot.. .and I care about him and I worry about him...

But I will walk away if B needs me to and eventually get over the hurt... I would have to probably not go to the gaming cons any more. I could not risk seeing J.

Unless you want to see B continually in pain you need to make that decision and stick with it.

Many hugs.

thanks. I can tell you that knowing B this is so far from over....

If I tell him I will end it with J he will be upset with me.
IF I tell him I will NOT end it with J he will be sad and hurt..

I can't win.
Maybe I just need to tell him nothing for a while... and let things keep on rolling. J and I have no plans to meet again till January 8th and that's for the day I already told him I could not spend the night...

[Fidelia]

Maybe you (the three of you) should take a breather. Choose to table these discussions for a few days, to give B a chance to regain his equilibrium some, and give everyone a chance to get a breath.

[whatamIdoing]

Maybe you (the three of you) should take a breather. Choose to table these discussions for a few days, to give B a chance to regain his equilibrium some, and give everyone a chance to get a breath.


deep sigh... I just came from seeing B at lunch. IT DID NOT GO WELL!

I told him I would end it with J. and I meant it. and he told me that he can't ask me to do that because he wants to still be in the lifestyle (swinging) because he likes watching me and what kills him is that J does not like that and wants me alone.

So I told him fine. We can be in the lifestyle and I'll end it with J but I would like to still go see him on the 8th to end it face to face that he deserves that...

we were screaming at each other.
he said he would go stay at his mothers till I was over J. he said I should go sleep with him and get it done.

I told him I could be friends with J without sex and he said "but you WANT it and that's the difference I don't WANT sex with my women friends".... (it's paraphrased but that's the gist of it).... so I told him I would end the entire friendship with J... and he will not let me. he says if I don't do this thing with J that is killing him he will leave me....

The man needs therapy. I can't fix him. And I don't dare talk to J about any of this at this point because by the time we get home B will have changed his mind yet again.

[whatamIdoing]

the other thing i need to add is that B has many women friends that he talks to emails, ims and texts with DAILY... and he thinks that's ok since while they want to have sex with him he doesn't want to have sex with them... and he does not want to give those friendships up.

but i can't be friends with J because I want to sleep with him even though I said I would not...

[NeonKaos]

The man needs therapy. I can't fix him.

This x 1000.

He needs someone who is not IN his life to put this into perspective. It does not have to be like this. He is doing nobody any favors by jerking you back and forth:

"Yes I want to be in the swinging lifestyle / No I don't want to be in the swinging lifestyle"

"Yes I want to get spontaneous blowjobs from my female friends / No I don't want to have sex with my female friends"

"Yes I want you to be yourself and have other relationships / No I can't handle sharing your attention with another man"

Etc. Etc.




This is starting to wear thin on me, so I can only imagine what it must be like for you. There are trained professionals who get paid GOOD MONEY to make this bullshit their life's work.

[whatamIdoing]

the other thing i need to add is that B has many women friends that he talks to emails, ims and texts with DAILY... and he thinks that's ok since while they want to have sex with him he doesn't want to have sex with them... and he does not want to give those friendships up.

but i can't be friends with J because I want to sleep with him even though I said I would not...

yes I am quoting myself because as I expected I just got a text from B...

" don't end it with J. I won't forgive myself if I take your fun away"

I really need a head banging smiley.

[nycindie]

I really need a head banging smiley.Here ya go!

http://www.tamemymind.com/blog/images2007/smiley-bangheadonwall-yellow.gif

But that looks like it hurts, so my wish for you is that it turns to this:

http://www.freesmileys.org/smileys/smiley-dance013.gif

[whatamIdoing]

Here ya go!

http://www.tamemymind.com/blog/images2007/smiley-bangheadonwall-yellow.gif

But that looks like it hurts, so my wish for you is that it turns to this:

http://www.freesmileys.org/smileys/smiley-dance013.gif

Thanks Cindie!

It just goes from bad to worse to almost comical...

I had to text J and WARN him that B is on an insane texting warpath threatening and I quote: “he win I lose no hard feelings and I hope he can make you happer than I ever did” and NOT to engage with him.

I can't WIN here.

I am going to have end the relationship with J. more because it's not fair to him to have this insanity in his face too. It's bad enough I have to deal with it.

I never ever would have done this if B had been honest with me back in November.

this is so hard. I don't WANT to end it with J... :(

[Ariakas]

I would highly recommend you toss your phone in the garbage and stop texting important information. Intonation, concern and sarcasm get badly lost in text. I "try" to make it a point to never have important discussions over text. :)

I never ever would have done this if B had been honest with me back in November.

Some people just don't know until they are in it, fact of life. Sometimes we end up in situations we may have "wanted" but then couldn't in fact work with. Ideally everyone is adult enough to figure it out. Pull up the pants and move on to fix, or end it.

B loves you, he probably really wanted to try, and will keep fluxuating...poly isn't easy, it takes work. If one person in the grouping ends up giving up, then things fall apart. As long as everyone is invested and is willing to put in the work or have patience. Things can work out in the end.

[whatamIdoing]

I would highly recommend you toss your phone in the garbage and stop texting important information. Intonation, concern and sarcasm get badly lost in text. I "try" to make it a point to never have important discussions over text. :)

thankfully J is not a texter. B I know him... this is word for word what he would say to me face to face. B is being insane. He's overreacting and he's acting badly. I am totally embarrassed by his behavior. When it's just the two of us and he's an idiot i'm ok... but to bring J into this... NOT FAIR to J.

Quote:
I never ever would have done this if B had been honest with me back in November.


Some people just don't know until they are in it, fact of life. Sometimes we end up in situations we may have "wanted" but then couldn't in fact work with. Ideally everyone is adult enough to figure it out. Pull up the pants and move on to fix, or end it.

I know... I get that. and I know he wanted to let me. He still WANTS to let me. IF he could GIVE me an action to take that he would accept that would make him happy I would do it. But NOTHING I have offered is acceptable to him. NOTHING.

I offered to end it totally with J. NO GO
I offered to just be friends with J NO GO

The ONLY thing that B keeps saying is I should go and be with J because that will make ME happy. He can't seem to deal with what we need to do to make him happy. IF he insists on my being with J then I will do it. If I can't win with B I might as well be with J.

B loves you, he probably really wanted to try, and will keep fluxuating...poly isn't easy, it takes work. If one person in the grouping ends up giving up, then things fall apart. As long as everyone is invested and is willing to put in the work or have patience. Things can work out in the end.

I keep trying to tell him Let's not talk about it now... he won't stop. I felt bad having to warn J but what else could I do?

[SNeacail]

The ONLY thing that B keeps saying is I should go and be with J because that will make ME happy.

When my husband starts making irrational statements, plans and/or accusations I ask him for details on how he is going to carry out said plan and it tends to bring him back to reality. My first question would be why he is trying so hard to get you to leave?

It does sound like he might need to be evaluated for depression and a good marriage councelor would be very useful as well.

[whatamIdoing]

When my husband starts making irrational statements, plans and/or accusations I ask him for details on how he is going to carry out said plan and it tends to bring him back to reality. My first question would be why he is trying so hard to get you to leave?

It does sound like he might need to be evaluated for depression and a good marriage councelor would be very useful as well.


He is already on wellbutrin for depression. as for marriage counseling.. he won't go to counseling marriage or otherwise.

I am not sure why he wants me to leave him... He is my third husband... I am done with ever getting married again... if he wants to leave he can. I will help him pack. I'm tired of this with him... to be honest.. it's MY house. I support us... he's never leaving me. he'd have to move back in with his parents which is where he was... I so love B I do. for so many reasons. but this insanity has to stop.

If he can't deal with my having a relationship with J then he should be ok with my offering to end it right?

but he's NOT!

[SNeacail]

He is already on wellbutrin for depression. as for marriage counseling.. he won't go to counseling marriage or otherwise.

Then I seriously wouldn't rule out some kind of chemical interaction that is fueling his irrationality.

If he can't deal with my having a relationship with J then he should be ok with my offering to end it right?

but he's NOT!

That is rational thinking, but he is not in a place to even process logic right now.

When I started asking my husband for exact details (his plans, what he would do to make it happen, etc) of a situation he was insisting on, he froze and started to realize what he had really been accusing me of. He hadn't been thinking beyond his own pain and was lashing out.

[nycindie]

He is already on wellbutrin for depression. as for marriage counseling.. he won't go to counseling marriage or otherwise.Ecch, I hated Wellbutrin. After a while it lost its effectiveness. This is common, I have read.

Perhaps he should try a different antidepressant, or have an adjustment in dosage. My cousin tried about six different meds before she found one that worked for her. I am on Prozac now, and my shrink wanted to change meds but I expressed concern about weight gain, so he decided to up the dosage of Prozac since I've still been able to lose weight with it (I'm in a weight loss program and have a goal to reach). Anyway, I monitor how I'm feeling, and if the higher dosage doesn't do it, then I will change meds. It's important to do that. I know a few people who have been happy with Celexa.

[Fidelia]

It's time to talk to his health care provider, psychologist, or whoever is prescribing his medication. It is possible his over-the-top behavior is a bad reaction to meds, or that the meds are making a bad situation worse. And the bariatric surgery (and the changes that come with that) may also be playing a role. Time to talk to the professionals. For his safety and well-being.

And as for counseling: you don't have to wait for him to agree to go. Go without him; it will be good for YOU. And he may follow your lead. Especially if he sees it's working.

[whatamIdoing]

Thanks everyone... I appreciate it.

I've had years of therapy and I know what's going on with me. B has ALWAYS had this reaction to things. NOTHING new about HOW he's reacting just WHAT he's reacting to.

It looks as if we won't be doing Poly EVER... he can't deal. It also looks as if we are leaving the lifestyle (at least for now)... truth be told I don't mind leaving the lifestyle... but I'm truly sad that he's too afraid to try Poly. I don't dare approach it as he can be mono but I need to be poly. he can't deal with that...

Last night his behavior was so bad, was so manipulative, was so over the top when he asked if I loved him I really wanted to say no... He cannot deal with the thought of my sleeping with J. He has said he no longer feels the desire to be with other women either. But he's ok with us having close friends of the opposite sex.

And I'm ok with that. I'm not sure how J will feel about it since the whole original premise of our relationship was NSA sex... and yes it's morphed into something else. J considers me a sounding board and a friend and a confidant. J has said he's willing to wait for sex... he may have to wait a long long time now... Since neither J or I think lying is acceptable we won't do anything we have to lie about... as much as I would like to....

Sadly I realized I DO NOT want to give up even my friendship with J and B thankfully is OK with that... the problem for me is I don't dare explain to him that the friendship is more of a threat to B than the sex is. I guess since I have permission to be friends, it's not emotional cheating... but yet it is....

I brought this on myself... I did. I needed to keep things to myself and let it play out... lesson learned. I share everything with everyone and wear my heart on my sleeve in neon for all the world to see including B and he's hurting because of it.

He told me that he had a dream last night that he walked in on J and I having sex at our yearly convention and we turned and looked at him and laughed and said "ha we've been doing this since the day we met"... I have no clue if it's true but even if it's not he's thinking that... and it's not true. J and I have not shared so much as a kiss... well not a deep kiss...

I appreciate that B is going to try to move forward in learning to trust me and let me spend time with J... which still will involve my going up to see him and perhaps staying overnight... thankfully B trusts me enough to know a promise is a promise... and I won't break that promise.. so while I can see J and be friends (and being friends includes cuddle buddies for some weird reason THAT is ok)... I can't fully love or commit to J as more than a friend... and not even a friend with benefits...

[NeonKaos]

I am sorry that you are having this dilemma; however, I am glad you didn't leave the forum like you thought about doing after you posted your first thread.

So I'm not sure if I understand correctly - did the three of you have this discussion face-to-face, or not?

[whatamIdoing]

I am sorry that you are having this dilemma; however, I am glad you didn't leave the forum like you thought about doing after you posted your first thread.

So I'm not sure if I understand correctly - did the three of you have this discussion face-to-face, or not?


HA! the THREE of us talk together about this... so NOT going to happen. AND YES I KNOW THAT'S NOT RIGHT. I know that it's best if the three of us can sit and talk and not have me be the middle man back and forth. I think J could deal with it now...although the first night when we had a chance he wanted to talk to me alone and that pissed B off and started us off on the wrong foot...

Sadly for me, B is not comfortable with this. He is so afraid of losing me. J lives 2 hours away and I can't even get B to talk with him on the phone or via email even though they have known each other nearly 3 years... They were never close friends... not even friends.. just friendly and now B views him as a rival... B can't see how having J in my life enhances my feelings for him..

J probably would be more amenable to being Poly and being secondary and being ok with all that... but there is no sense in my even talking to him about it until I can get B on board... I mean what's the point in even broaching the subject if B can't deal? J as a secondary relationship for me suits me so well. In my ideal world I would have both.

In reality I have to deal with the current stipulations from B:

1. he can't even bear to hear me talk about J as a secondary relationship. I can only call him MY FRIEND

2. he currently (as of this morning which is a change from last night even) states.. if he knew I was only going to have sex with J once he could deal with it... he could even deal with my continuing to be friends with J if we only had sex ONCE... and that would include my going up to see J... and not have overnights if B was not going to be away overnight.. (as of last night it was NOT having sex EVER with J)...

3. I can talk to J, I can talk about J, I can go and SEE J... he just can't see me having an ongoing sexual relationship with him.

J and I had already agreed to table sex for around 3 months to try to help B deal with his comfort level... I told B this...

There has been a subtle emotional shift in J since our visit that I'm picking up on.... a bit more emotionally open to me and a bit more dependent on me for input and support in things... so not like J from what I know of him

B also has shifted to being more attentive and more loving... and CRYING A LOT... it's so hard when 6'4" 290 pounds cries in my lap like a baby....

B is so scared. and he has no need to be. but only time will heal this for him...

I really really really don't want to give up my friendship with J.
I would MUCH rather have a full relationship with him.. that was the original intent.. NSA sex.. but I think B thought it would be a one shot deal...

now... things are changing...

B is my heart and soul and my life partner and my love and my husband.

J is the counter weight to B... J is not a BETTER man than B (what B thinks) but J is a DIFFERENT man from B... so very different in so many ways that the ONLY things these two men have in common are gaming and ME... that's it.

I'm hurting. I'm hurting for B and his fears that I can't assuage. I"m hurting for ME for being torn and not being able to make B feel better because I REFUSE to lie to him about how I feel about J.... and I hurt for J for not even knowing yet the full extent of what's going on down here... (and it's NOT something I can tell him in email and phone calls right now are limited due to time constraints on his end and timing issues on mine)

IF B cannot COPE with this I can't even begin to bring it up with J.... I can't see that. and i surely can't see J and I presenting this to B... he will take that as an attack and as us ganging up on him...

[whatamIdoing]

Interesting convo with B this afternoon.

He really is trying to process this.. and it takes a lot of screaming and yelling and threatening...and roundabout things to get to the truth of the matter.

so where we stand right now:

1. he does not want to give up the lifestyle
2. he likes when we do things TOGETHER in the lifestyle
3. he does not want me to do things without him
4. he thinks that J wants to and will take me away from him
5. he needs to hear from J that he does not want to take me away from him

I think I can manage this... I told B I have to call J and talk to him about it that our email is reserved for silly stuff and this is an important thing so talking is the critical part...

[whatamIdoing]

well it's been quiet for us...

B and I are both battling some weird virus that starts with multiple cold sores... I even had a fever of 102 on saturday... then we move to a cold. NOT FUN! and B has been so kind and cuddly and worried about me... apparently in the 8 yrs we are together i've never been this sick... he is worried.

He is still struggling with my relationship with J and yet he is letting me play this out as best he can. We have had a lot of fights about this...

this morning he said to me "i hope you are better by the 8th so you don't have to cancel your date with J" .... half facetious half serious. I asked him didn't he want me better for the 31st our anniversary... he's like "I don't matter".. UGH.... i'm not feeding into his insanity.

B went shopping tonite after work... i took advantage of his being out and called J... (it's not that I am hiding my contact and relationship with J it's just that until his comfort level is higher I am trying very hard not to impact on his time with me) it's like night and day... I can so talk to J about how B is or is not coping...

we talked about what B said this morning... J laughed..
we talked about the fact that B and I are fighting about him and J was so amazing... he said "i knew that this was going to be hard on B" I asked him how and he said "anyone who sees him can tell how much he loves you" I was floored. J continued "I knew we were going to have to take this very slow..." He really really amazed me with how aware of B's feelings and needs he is. So NOT what I was expecting from him... again this was supposed to be NSA sex and clearly it's NOT that...

I told J that currently B is on the "you two go at your own pace for sexual contact" and he was pleased. I am pleased and yet nervous too. J and I have a date on January 8th and now I'm attempting to placate B enough so that he can deal with my spending his racing weekend in February with J... it's like the ONLY time of year ever I can have an entire weekend with J without impacting on B's time... and currently that's our deal... My relationship with J cannot impact on B's time. That's not B's rules that's what J and I decided was best for all of us...

we talked about how B thinks that J is going to steal me away from him... J and I feel bad for B but there is a twofold reason we find this amusing.

1. J does not view me as a lifetime partner I'm here for a season or a reason or both... but not forever...
and
2. B makes it sound like I have no free will.. apparently he seems to think if J wants me I have NO say in it... NONE... it's almost comical

so currently things are on an even keel....

of course, I want to be poly. I would love for B to find someone so he can deal with J because I get the feeling J would and could deal with being poly...

i just can't see B ever feeling comfortable with the idea..... but time will tell.

and sadly I still think B hides his contact with other women from me... I was even talking to J about this.. how B hides it... I think for him part of the thrill is NOT getting caught... but i always catch him...

now he asks if when he is off next week can he spend time with his friend C... (yes the one that gave him the bj in the truck) and i'm like FINE... because when I ask to go see J on that february weekend and B says he doesn't want me to I will bring up all the times he does what he wants and I never tell him no.... and i'm going to go.. I fear that it will still be a battle with B for me to go spend time with J that weekend... J and I need to talk about it more and decide how we want to approach this with B....

[whatamIdoing]

well it's been a long time since I've been here... and sadly I'm ranting about the same old stuff....

we have not moved forward much in terms of how my DH is dealing.

J and I have moved forward in our relationship and I fear sadly that my marriage may not survive... and sadly that does not bother me as much as it should.

DH keeps telling me how insecure he is. How J is a better man etc etc etc... same old same old with B...

what's changing is my relationship with J... we've gone from sporadic emails and no phone calls to:

email daily (or almost daily)

several phone calls a week.

we've had three visits and plan a weekend for president's day weekend (B is off racing that weekend and I am free so I am going)

J always said he would not give up Gaming weekends or his one day off a week to see me.. J always told me he was heavily scheduled and would need to fit me in. J lied. we've had two "spontaneous" visits. One of his request... we are friends... we are important to each other... there is sex but it's so NOT the important part of our relationship...

I keep trying to talk to B and explain it to him but he's too needy and I'm tired of being his mommy.

Since B knows about my friendship with J it's not an affair.... but sadly it's not POLY either....

I don't fit in with the affair having people (thankfully) and yet I don't quite fit here either... :mad:

and I'm being selfish now.

B wants me to give up J and yet he sits and texts and talks to his female friends (often in front of me) and thinks that's ok since they are not physically intimate. I told him I'd give up the physical part of my relationship with J but that we like to visit and that means overnights since we are two hours apart. but that's not good enough. of course giving up his friends is an option until I say "OK give them up and I'll give up J" then he says no it's ok for now...

the one thing I've made him promise is that IF he needs me to really end it with J that I get one final visit with him to do it face to face... ending a relationship is not something to be done over the phone... especially one that's turning into a close relationship.

And i'm at the point that I do not think I want to end it with J.... so now I have to decide what I want to do.... B is being insane and pushing me and his neediness is sucking me dry...

[whatamIdoing]

well well well things have changed for us in the last week or so.

My DH has met a woman (online at OKCUPID) who is local, married and very POLY.... he likes her. He likes her husband. He knows her husband's GF from high school...

His new friend is willing to wait him out and see what develops as hubby is not ready to take it to a physical level.

I think I like this woman. She's also a J. (how funny is that).... and she constantly tells DH that he needs to chill... that he needs to trust me and let me go and be with MY J and see what happens but to KNOW that I"m always coming back to him.

DH has seen HIS J a few times. They text and talk daily (a lot... which is more than I can say about my J and me)... and he is starting to spend MORE time with her... he was with her on Superbowl Sunday and will see her this friday night... He's starting to relax about my time with J....

I am going to see him next weekend... and I'm relaxing more and more about it.

He's gone scarce on me but I believe it's his pattern to do this before a planned weekend...

[nycindie]

Woot!

[whatamIdoing]

Ha Thanks Cindie!

I'm getting very excited to go see J next weekend... it's our first time together for more than one night...

we had a small family crisis yesterday and while B's J was there for him emotionally my J is nowhere to be found... that's hard for me... that I have jealousy that even though B does not see his J as a sexual partner (she is waiting for him on this aspect of their relationship) he has total support and adoration from her already. She texts him emails him IMs him and talks to him daily.... I'm very jealous of that.

I'm also very concerned that my J is not being honest with himself about how he feels about me. I don't know how to deal with this with him. I have asked him how he feels and he told me "after three visits up here you don't have the right to ask me how I feel"... deep sigh... yeah I do but you don't have to tell me.... but the anger and defensiveness tells me a lot more than you think.

My J is an addict and an alcoholic. I know this... it's NOT a good situation for him... but for what I want/need him for, it works for me.... I just wish we could be there for each other more than we are.

[whatamIdoing]

how surreal is it that I'm upset about something J did (not) do and B picks up on it and asks and he feels bad for me that J hurt me... wow.

[whatamIdoing]

Ah how things change yet more and more..

Friday night B went to be with J and when he walked in at 4:30 in the morning he was all aglow... and I knew... and I was so happy for him.... I pointed out that he should have just stayed the night with her but he had not cleared it with me so he felt bad... He has guilt and he does not know why... J is helping him work through this.

We went away Saturday morning and we had Saturday-Sunday afternoon away from everything.

Some fights about my J again... and texts between B and his J but it was a GREAT time... we needed it.

We got home and B, who is in total NRE rushed to be with J because he won't get to see her for the next two weeks... he got home a bit after midnight all forlorn.. He and J had words over something she said that he took offense at. He over-reacted because he was stressed about something else she spoke to him about.

Seems J is moving a bit faster than B is ready... she'd like a weekend away with him to discuss making their friendship a more formal arrangement... B is still not sure he's ready to be truly poly and is struggling with this... I keep talking to him and letting him know how very ok I am with this for him... and we will see how it goes.

Meanwhile I leave Friday afternoon to spend a weekend with my J... I'm excited about it.. the first time we get more than one night together and the first time I'm comfortable enough to NOT have to talk about B and work through my feelings...

[nycindie]

I am really happy for you both!

[whatamIdoing]

thanks Cindie..

sadly my excitement was short lived.
my husband cannot handle this lifestyle. not really. he needs to be a cheater.

He was planning next weekend away with J4 (her name has 4 letters) and he can't go because we have prior plans. HE LOST IT. He's insane truly. He just can't figure this out. He is so lost... and I can't help him.

He can't deal with my being friends with J. He can't see that I am not ending my marriage, that J is not a BETTER man or more anything.. just DIFFERENT... he thinks that J is going to steal me away... LIKE I HAVE NO SAY in who I am with. He is insanely jealous of J and my friendship with him. He careens from

you can be friends to

you can't be friends to

you can be friends and lovers to

you can't be friends to

ok I'll try this for a couple of months...

I told him PICK ONE and STICK WITH IT.

I also told him if he picks NO CONTACT with J then he needs to have NO CONTACT with any of his female friends and if he does then I am ending the marriage... so not what I want to do but he really wants to do what he needs to do and not let me do it.

he is insecure and he has no self-esteem. I have told him he needs therapy. he won't go.

I am getting sick and tired of this.

J and I talked about the fact that my marriage may NOT survive this mess and that he would NOT be the cause of the breakup but that B would blame him... and that our mutual friends (a large international community) would think that J was the cause of the marital break up.... we know this is not true and we are prepping to deal with this as needed.

my relationship/friendship with J is not the problem it's just bringing the problem to a head. Ending my friendship with J will not fix the problem it will just put a band aid on something that's pouring out blood and needs to be fixed. Sadly B does not see this.

[FlameKat]

bigtime hugs to you... bigtime hugs

[whatamIdoing]

bigtime hugs to you... bigtime hugs


thanks! ever so much! last night was a bit better.

B has said on his own that he will go to therapy. I'm pleased. Let's see if he can do it.

[nycindie]

I told him PICK ONE and STICK WITH IT.

How about YOU pick one and stick with it, and let B figure out how to deal with it?

I don't think you need to keep twisting yourself in all directions every time he waffles. You two have talked and talked and talked about it, do you still feel you need his permission to be with J? I often see that people who waffle, and go back and forth in their insecurities, really just need to be told what to do. They want to know how things are gonna go, and underneath it all appreciate being told directly, firmly, lovingly. If you always make your actions conditional upon what B wants, you guys will never get anywhere. He might be insecure because he feels there is an unknown element that can come into play. I sense that B needs direction or structure, which can come from you standing your ground and saying "this is how it is." Not in a harsh way, but with respect and yet leaving no doubt that this is a new stage in your relationship that he needs to cope with. It could help him to know what he's dealing with, and lead him to find solutions for handling everything, if you just tell B that you and J will continue and he has to learn to trust that you won't leave him. Just a thought.

[MonoVCPHG]

I agree with NYCindie. Sometimes, when a partner is continually indecisive about an issue, you just have to say fuck it and do something to really see what will happen. This does however come with the responsibity of accepting what the outcome could be. His way of coping could be to leave you at the extreme end of the spectrum. On the other hand..you won't know unless you push it.

[whatamIdoing]

to Cindie and Mono,

Thanks... GREAT advice... and I think I can do that. I think I have to really. And while I'm ok with B leaving me if he has to I doubt he will...

I think I have no choice... B has made an appointment with the therapist. He sees her on the 24th.. she is already seeing me about WLS issues and is well aware of what's going on with B and J and me... I told B that he could and should be totally open and honest with her and he was "she knows about J??? :eek:" and I'm like yeah of course.... and she's OK with it... not judgmental at all....

I just worry that until B is more secure in himself and his feelings and really believes I'm not leaving him that I'm not physically safe when he gets upset.

[nycindie]

I just worry that until B is more secure in himself and his feelings and really believes I'm not leaving him that I'm not physically safe when he gets upset.

WHAT???!!! Are you saying there is potential for physical harm directed at you? That is a serious issue that needs addressing, Sweetie!

[whatamIdoing]

WHAT???!!! Are you saying there is potential for physical harm directed at you? That is a serious issue that needs addressing, Sweetie!


The other night he was in my face... I turned my back to him in bed and he flipped me over on my back by my shoulder... but it's the first time he laid his hands on me in anger in 8 years together...

[NeonKaos]

So J is an addict and alcoholic, and B is a time-bomb.

Sounds like you picked yourself a couple of real winners.

Maybe you should drop them both and figure out what it is about yourself that makes you pick partners with such... textbook issues.

[whatamIdoing]

So J is an addict and alcoholic, and B is a time-bomb.

Sounds like you picked yourself a couple of real winners.

Maybe you should drop them both and figure out what it is about yourself that makes you pick partners with such... textbook issues.


and i'm such a prize myself!

[NeonKaos]

and i'm such a prize myself!

I assume you meant that in a cheeky way, meaning that nobody's perfect.

That's exactly why you should work on yourself instead of getting involved with more people. The better you know yourself, the better equipped you are to deal with partners and their baggage, and you will find that you're not as willing to put up with other people's bullshit when you have worked through your own bullshit. Not "I'm a piece of work so it's ok if my partners are pieces of work because one piece of work deserves another".

[nycindie]

and i'm such a prize myself!

YES, you are! Don't doubt that!

[whatamIdoing]

I assume you meant that in a cheeky way, meaning that nobody's perfect.

That's exactly why you should work on yourself instead of getting involved with more people. The better you know yourself, the better equipped you are to deal with partners and their baggage, and you will find that you're not as willing to put up with other people's bullshit when you have worked through your own bullshit. Not "I'm a piece of work so it's ok if my partners are pieces of work because one piece of work deserves another".


Actually no I was being QUITE serious.

YOU guys have no clue the baggage I carry around.... I know myself quite well... therapy from age 9 till past age 40 several psych ward hospitalizations, a degree in psych myself...

as for putting up with the bullshit of others... I have my limits.

J is exactly what i need him to be when I need him to be what I need..... he suits me as a secondary part time relationship just fine. B... well B is my heart and soul. I often mend torn clothing and wear it also.

[NeonKaos]

J is exactly what i need him to be when I need him to be what I need..... he suits me as a secondary part time relationship just fine. B... well B is my heart and soul. I often mend torn clothing and wear it also.


That's a pretty weak metaphor. I've never heard of torn clothing laying its hands on someone in anger.

If things are working so well, then good for you.

Have a great week!

[nycindie]

The other night he was in my face... I turned my back to him in bed and he flipped me over on my back by my shoulder... but it's the first time he laid his hands on me in anger in 8 years together...

Oh, I understand better now.

My husband had one moment of anger like that while we were together (10+ years), but he never actually struck me, nor even pushed me. I never worried that I was "not physically safe" with him, even when he was furious. I always knew he would never hurt me. If he did anything out of rage, it was more likely to be that he would deliberately knock things off a table or something. He only did that once, too. Generally he would just storm out or give me the silent treatment. We actually fought very rarely.

If he ever had tried to hurt me, he would've been out the door immediately. I would never put up with that, and I believe that because of this, I've never attracted the kind of man who gets violent. I am ashamed to admit, however, that once while we were arguing after he told me he wanted a divorce, and I was literally begging him (tearful and screaming nonsense) to stay and not move out, he said something very hurtful and insulting to me -- to which I reacted by slapping him across the face. I was such a mess, but that's no excuse. So, I have experienced how those moments can take possession of our senses. Unfortunately.

You may want to tell B how much that frightened you when he did that, though (if you haven't already).

[SNeacail]

YOU guys have no clue the baggage I carry around.... I know myself quite well... therapy from age 9 till past age 40 several psych ward hospitalizations, a degree in psych myself...

This doesn't mean you have to put up with or accept self destructive/abusive behaviour from others. Just because you have your own issues, that I assume you are working on, doesn't give anyone else in you life license to ignore their own nor should you be expected to excuse it.

I believe a one time thing needs to be addressed immediately, but is not necessarily a reason to walk away, but definitely not ignored or excused.


I often mend torn clothing and wear it also.

NK said this metaphor was weak, I just don't get it. It's not your job to fix your partners problems, psych degree or no, especially if they don't want to be fixed.

My husband used to get right in my face (like an inch from my nose) and back me into a corner where I had no escape. It was horrible and I finally told him that he might as well just hit me, because then my terror wouldn't last as long. He was actually horrified when I told him how it effected me and he hasn't done it since.

[whatamIdoing]

The one time thing was addressed. He starts therapy next week. He called and made the appointment himself.

He was told if he EVER lays his hand on me again in anger (even to flip me over in bed) that he's GONE forever. He agrees. He feels he should be arrested and punished for doing what he did. I think that's a bit much.

he is on medication but I am thinking we need to get him evaluated.

A lot of his issues stem from lack of self-esteem which is currently being made worse by body image issues.

both of us in the last 18 months have lost a lot of weight... him over 200 pounds and me over 130... we both have terrible sagging skin that can only be corrected by plastic surgery... we both feel terribly ugly... I'm coping better with it than he is because I'm going to have surgery soon... he's not ready yet as he's still 25 pounds from goal...

B horrified himself when he did it... he sat on the edge of the bed and cried like a baby... saying... call the cops i need to be arrested.... it scared him enough that he begged to go to therapy finally...

as for J... I have no clue what will be with him but I am not his caretaker. We are not even at the point where I know how to define our relationship... If he abuses himself that's his choice. When I go to see him, it's my vacation, it's my party, it's my respite from my day to day life... so drinking and eating bad food and being mindless and useless is a perfect way to spend the weekend....

[whatamIdoing]

my head hurts...

I spent the entire weekend with J.... our relationship is changing... my two new favorite movies have to be "No Strings Attached" and "It's Complicated"... they pretty much describe my life right now...

J brought up the concept of Poly at dinner Saturday night... we were both straight and sober and having a lovely meal out.... we talked about what it means to be a secondary relationship and how it would be too difficult for me to be a primary to both him and B... and how J4 has asked B to be her secondary relationship but she's pushing him a bit too hard too fast and he's not sure he's ready...

I explained NRE to him... I was just being clinical... it never occurred to me that he wanted this info for a reason...

J has said WE need to find him a primary.... he knows that he needs that to be able to deal with having to be second with me....he knows without a primary relationship for himself he will start to place too many demands on me and my time

Sunday was a lovely day until later in the day... we talked about how we feel about each other... we care we both care... we both care more that we've wanted to admit....

towards the end of the visit we were standing in the kitchen hugging each other and I was saying things like "fuck you" and "damn you to hell"... J knew what that was all about... I'm mad... this was supposed to be JUST fun and games and it was supposed to be NSA.... and here we are falling in love with each other...

I got home last night about 10:30 and called him... as requested. he started with "i'm drunk" he was drinking wine... he can't hold his wine... and he was drinking... I knew he was going to he opened the bottle before I left... and why is he drinking himself lonely.... because the bed is empty... because he misses me... because our weekend was awesome... and because he said to me "I'm in NRE with you...." and because he said "I can't see you often unless it's to help me work on finding a primary... and I know you would step aside if you needed to..."

I know this is the fear talking I know this was the wine talking... I know he's talking about staying away to protect his heart... I know I can't be what he needs... I know this makes me sad....

I never ever wanted to fall in love with him.. that was never the plan!

[MonoVCPHG]

I never ever wanted to fall in love with him.. that was never the plan!

You're trying to fight human biology and chemical reactions in your brain my friend....physical intimacy has physiological affects that some people can ignore...but not many. I think the box you just opened is referred to as Pandora's.

[whatamIdoing]

You're trying to fight human biology and chemical reactions in your brain my friend....physical intimacy has physiological affects that some people can ignore...but not many. I think the box you just opened is referred to as Pandora's.


I know! I KNOW! I KNOW

and i have nothing to say.... the truth is J and I are barely sexual... we are more about the cuddling.... we never even had sex while I was there this weekend.....

[Ariakas]

You might want to avoid having sex, until you get all of this figured out. Its hard to turn back once that puzzle piece of emotional connection is made :)

[whatamIdoing]

You might want to avoid having sex, until you get all of this figured out. Its hard to turn back once that puzzle piece of emotional connection is made :)


oh we have had sex already... more than once.. just this weekend it never worked out to have intercourse...

[whatamIdoing]

How Surreal this morning was for us.

B is packing for a weekend with J4. He needed to take his pillows because he is spending the weekend with her... he was rushing this morning and nearly forgot them, so I'm reminding him... :cool:

I packed because I'm going up to see J again this weekend... Our relationship has really escalated really fast... and feelings are getting deeper and stronger for both of us...

now if only I can make everyone happy that I want two men....