Polyamorous just in words or actions too [Archive]

Fidelia

11-22-2010, 10:51 PM

*more big hugs*

I can certainly understand your frustration with the situation. Loving them both means demonstrating love to both of them, right? Perfectly natural.

But, given everything that's going on with Maca right now, and all the unresolved issues he's trying to work through, I can also understand how observing you being affectionate with GG would hurt Maca.

The situation stinks, no doubt about it, and my heart just breaks for all of you. I'm so sorry for y'all's pain. :(

So what to do? I don't know, except to try and put myself in your shoes. If it were me, there's no way I'd be willing to restrict my affectionate nature forever. I'm very demonstrative and I know I couldn't pigeonhole that part of me indefinitely. I just couldn't do it. But I would be willing to refrain from physical displays of affection for the short term if it meant helping Fidelio work through his issues, strictly as a show of support for him. I would need to clearly define the parameters and I would need a definite ending to the restrictions, but I would be willing to try it for Fidelio. And I wouldn't want the first time to try out the new boundary to be a big-deal holiday event with lots of friends and family present. I'd prefer to test the waters when there was no pressure, a simple dinner date or some such. So that if it didn't work, we end the date and no harm done. At least, I THINK that's what I'd try to do.

Whatever y'all decide and however it works out, here are some good vibes and hugs going out to all y'all.

LovingRadiance

11-22-2010, 11:25 PM

Fidelia,

Part of my issue is that I AM ok with taking a "time out" to work on things.
However, this is something that hasn't changed in 14 months.

Maca says he wants to be here, with the family. But he doesn't take time to consider what that MEANS.
He says he accepts that GG is my boyfriend-LIVE IN BOYFRIEND at that, but he doesn't take time to consider what that means.

Maca would be FURIOUS if I were to go to his Christmas party-and not be affectionate with GG, then go to GG's party and not be affectionate with Maca, but wouldn't that be more "reasonable" if we're only going to show affection to ONE person-then it should be the one whose peers we are with?
(I find the whole thing absurd).

FURTHER MORE-
Maca is TOTALLY ok with kissing and making out with other women in front of other people when I'm around, in point of fact even when one of our son's parents happened by, he continued to do so as I spoke with that parent (who hasn't a CLUE about poly or our lifestyle). He specifically said he didn't give a DAMN what they thought.

He recognizes that he has a double standard there and he acknowledges that it's not fair or reasonable.

GG and I aren't the "make out in public" type of couple anyway-we wouldn't do that. It's not something we're comfortable with.
So the level of affection that we're talking about is very minimal. We rarely french kiss if there is an "audience".

But, Maca expects that we are not to do ANYTHING that suggests the type of relationship we have-in front of him.
AND
He expects that any time he's available-I'm with him...........

So for example this week, I didn't get any time with GG. All week. A "group xmas spree" that Maca planned for ALL FOUR of us-turns into GG walking alone behind us the entire day. No playful banter, no talking, no acknowledgement that he's even WITH US, all day? Damn near 12 hours.

We live together, but we can't kiss goodbye before he leaves to spend the night elsewhere?

It really pisses me off. Seriously pisses me off.

The more months that go by-the more pissed off I get.

Maca has a date planned with his "other" coming up. Imagine that-I don't work, so it's AUTOMATICALLY a time he could be spending with me. He wouldn't dream that it might be an issue. In point of fact, while he did tell me that they MADE plans (not that they wanted to-they HAD ALREADY) he did NOT tell me anything about when, except what day.
The truth is that I don't mind-but I DO mind that he expects me to be ok with that, when he is NOT ok with me making plans with GG.

I made plans with GG to go out WHILE MACA IS AT WORK on the 3rd. We're going Christmas shopping. I got attitude from Maca. He'll be AT WORK. It's not time we can spend together ANYWAY. But he's still jealous and pissy because I'll be with GG.

It just never ends and it's fucking ridiculous.

My sister keeps saying-make a choice, then stick to it.
I agree with her.
He says he can't deal with the dynamic, then he says he's all in and he's going to work on it, then he can't deal with it, then he's all in, then he can't deal with it... etc.

The truth is that what he wants is to choose a path that will be easy, comfortable and enjoyable the whole way.
BUT
that doesn't exist. We live on earth. Every choice we make requires work at some point. We have to do the work to get the pleasure. He's not willing to do the work.

He wants to have his cake and eat it to. It's that simple to me.
It's ironic-he says that about me because I want both him and GG.

But I'm willing to do the work, make the allowances, take the time, put in the extra effort.

He wants me. He wants me to be his everything. He wants me to do it all his way. He wants me to fit into the vision he created of marriage when he was a child
AND
he wants me to make it happen so that he can just glide along enjoying it.

Well-
WTF?
It's not MY dream.
It's not MY plan.
It's not to MY benefit.
So why precisely would I want to do that?

AND I already HAVE busted my ass to make things as easy for him as possible and found that it only results in more demands, more strictures, more insecurities in him and a mental breakdown in me.
He knows that-he says he doesn't want to go down that road again etc etc etc etc.

OK-SO YOU HAVE A CHOICE-
A
OR
B

It's not-a matter of being able to have A, in the world of B or have B in the world of A. Those aren't options.

If he can't handle me, the REAL ME, then he needs to just say so and we can move on to whatever it is he can handle. Friends? Aquaintances? Fuck buddies? FWB? what the hell ever.

But continuing to tell me, he does love me, does wnat to be with me and does want to make THIS family work, not A FAMILY, but THIS family work while simultaneously insisting that he can't deal with GG is BULLSHIT.

(Fidelia-I wasn't at all upset with you, I hope you know that my frustration in this post isn't about YOU at all. XO)
It's a copout.

Breathesgirl

11-23-2010, 12:09 AM

I'm trying to give you a laugh LR, so please take it that way when I *give you the use of my CLUE-BY-FOUR* which is used to hit the clueless, or those who aren't seeing reality, upside the head so they CAN see the clues or reality!

Many hugs & positive thoughts headed to the very frozen north!

Somegeezer

11-23-2010, 01:28 AM

If this has been going on for so long and he just can't handle it, I think maybe he's just not worth the hassle. Seems like he won't really change his mind and always have his double standards. Personally, I'd leave him on his arse and let him live his own way, but I wouldn't want a thing to do with it. Seems like it would be not just you, but also GG getting the hard end of this. I say you and GG go away and live it the way you're wanting to.

Fidelia

11-23-2010, 02:06 AM

Fidelia,

Part of my issue is that I AM ok with taking a "time out" to work on things.
However, this is something that hasn't changed in 14 months. Did you say FOURTEEN MONTHS? Geesh! I was thinking I could refrain myself from PDA's for maybe a week, two max. Then revisit the issue. Fourteen months? With little or no forward motion? Good heavens! No wonder you're at the end of your rope!

(Fidelia-I wasn't at all upset with you, I hope you know that my frustration in this post isn't about YOU at all. XO) Of course not, Beloved. And I hope you know I'm just trying to help. O's and X's right back at you.

LovingRadiance

11-23-2010, 04:51 AM

Did you say FOURTEEN MONTHS? Geesh! I was thinking I could refrain myself from PDA's for maybe a week, two max. Then revisit the issue. Fourteen months? With little or no forward motion? Good heavens! No wonder you're at the end of your rope!

Of course not, Beloved. And I hope you know I'm just trying to help. O's and X's right back at you. I do know-that's why I wrote-I knew everyone would be caringly HONEST. ;)
Sometimes it helps to just hear things from someone else so you know it's not just in your own head. ;)

If this has been going on for so long and he just can't handle it, I think maybe he's just not worth the hassle. Seems like he won't really change his mind and always have his double standards. Personally, I'd leave him on his arse and let him live his own way, but I wouldn't want a thing to do with it. Seems like it would be not just you, but also GG getting the hard end of this. I say you and GG go away and live it the way you're wanting to. It's not quite as easy as that, we have 5 kids and the youngest is 3. BUT-I do understand your point, quite well.
I told him tonight-life is simply a series of choices-make a choice and live it-stop spinning in circles whining about what the choice is, it's wasting your time (and mine).
AND-
yes, GG and the kids and Mimi all do get the hardest end of this.

I'm trying to give you a laugh LR, so please take it that way when I *give you the use of my CLUE-BY-FOUR* which is used to hit the clueless, or those who aren't seeing reality, upside the head so they CAN see the clues or reality!

Many hugs & positive thoughts headed to the very frozen north!

Thank you Breathes-I did take it that way. ;)

MonoVCPHG

11-23-2010, 06:54 AM

I think maybe he's just not worth the hassle. Seems like he won't really change his mind and always have his double standards. .

I care about everyone in this journey and I know you haven't met him. Please don't pretend to know what his worth is.
Regardless of what anyone thinks this is and has been tough on all of them.

Walk a little in his shoes.

redpepper

11-23-2010, 07:32 AM

I don't think its such a bad thing to bend a little. It's the start of a negotiation process and you seemingly have thrown out what he has offered without giving it a thought and some respect. It's like someone giving you the gift of their most vulnerable heart in the form of something they have made(regardless of the packaging) and you not even opening it and throwing it out the window in hast and anger.

Sorry LR, not fair I don't think.

He needed reassurance that he is still your man, and you have just confirmed that he is full of shit and can fuck right off with being your man. Is that what you meant to say to his hurting heart? He is trying to heal no?

This is where we at the hinges of vees don't get to ever have our cake and eat it too. We are always doing what we can to make sure that our loves are feeling appreciated and cared for, sometimes at the expense of what we really want in the moment...

If this were me I think I would suck it up, agree to do this with the understanding that if you are not to touch who you want to then neither is he, and go out and have the best time ever. Knowing that boundary negotiations are not over yet.

A good party or two could really help ease the tension and normalize things for all of you, move you past the crap that is going on... is that not the bigger gain? The greater good? There is lots of time to touch GG in private, who cares if you can't in public.

In my life I am very careful to not touch either men too much. If I do I make sure it is even and does not send off an message to them or those watching that I favor one over the other. Most of the time it's just easier to be private in our touching. The reassurance I give is so important, even if I really would not normally bother under any other circumstance and don't really see any value in it for myself directly... the direct benefit is that they are comfortable and happy and love me more because of it... :) all good stuff back again... then stuff like that usually eases in time.

Breathesgirl

11-23-2010, 10:55 AM

I LOVE PDA's! lol Unfortunately neither of my guys are particularly into it :(. They're fine showing affection in front of a known quantity but not in front of those they don't really know.

One of the most memorable times with both of them together is when I was kissing Possibility good-bye & Breathes reached over & pinched my butt :D, his wife & their hubby were right there, too, lol.

I'm gathering from your words, LR, that Maca isn't OK even with private displays? If he doesn't see it then it isn't 'real' so he can just keep going as though everything's hunky dory, he's the ONLY man in your life apart from the kids.

I'm curious, are your definitions of public and private the same? For me public is anything where it isn't just the two of us, for them (I haven't confirmed this and am not about to at this ridiculous hour) I think it's more along the lines of outside the house & (for Possibility) as long as my kids aren't present. Private, for me, is anything inside the house no matter who's around although it can also include just the two of us.

Much hugs. I hope he settles this for himself soon so you can go back to living your life happily.

As an aside: I'm enjoying reading your blog and seeing the process you're going through trying to get through this.

SNeacail

11-23-2010, 06:10 PM

If this were me I think I would suck it up, agree to do this with the understanding that if you are not to touch who you want to then neither is he, and go out and have the best time ever. Knowing that boundary negotiations are not over yet.

This was kind of what I was thinking, actually my thoughts actually were much more confrontational and retaliatory, but this is healthier:p. I know it doesn't bother you, but his double standard does. He needs to be bound by his rules as well.

I think you guys need to come up with new boundaries. No one should ever be completely ignored. Maybe before a group outing/event you and Maca could sit down together, get a feel for his mood and reassure him that your interaction with GG doesn't mean you love him less, but you won't be ignoring him either.

When we have something out of the ordinary going on, an all day event, road trip, etc, I have to do this for my oldest kid. I have to spell out the plan for the day and warn him that plans may change at a moments notice. If we promise to stop somewhere, but something prevents that (traffic, etc), it doesn't mean we lied, it means that circumstances have changed and we need to adapt. Before I started giving him this warning, he would focus on the fact that we didn't do something on the plan and he couldn't get past it. I found that when doing this for the kid, I was also able to do it for myself as well and I delt with SNAFUS much better.

LovingRadiance

11-23-2010, 08:45 PM

I never show GG pda with Maca around, I have no issue with that-if the tables were even.
But they are not.

I didn't say I wouldn't go to the parties-I said I won't go to the parties with both of them together.

I don't mind going to GG's party with GG and going to Maca's with Maca. I have issue with going with BOTH of them and Maca expecting me to flat ignore GG.

RP-I know what you are saying-and yes-I did vent on here about how I feel.
However, I haven't done that to him and he's not reading the board at this point.

My issue isn't the idea of not showing any sexual affection to one of them in front of the other.
My issue is the expectation that I rub that sexual affection between Maca and I into GG's face AND that I allow Maca to show sexual affection to other women in front of me, but never ever allow myself to show ANY KIND OF AFFECTION-sexual or otherwise to GG in front of Maca.

That's a clear cut double standard-even Maca says so.

If HE see's that he has a double standard AND
He says that he would never tolerate it if he were me AND
He says it's wrong and not what he wants.... .

Why should I do it?

:rolleyes:

Don't get me wrong-I don't think "worth" is really the question here. I understand what (don't recall the name) the other poster was saying (as I said). But worth isn't really the issue at hand.

Maca has worth-a great deal of worth to me.
And he knows it.

He told him himself that he's selfish and that he takes me for granted. He admittedly quite readily that he expects me to arrange my life so that I am available any time he wants me to be, but does not expect to have to rearrange his own life for my benefit at all.

He wants to be able to say snap his fingers and POOF, there I am. I should just be waiting on the shelf like Buzz Lightyear for whenever he finally decides he wants to play with me. It's not ok for me to make plans of my own.

He admits that he doesn't hate GG, he WANTS to hate GG because he's afraid people will laugh at him and think he's a fool because he "allows me" to have another man.
BUT-he's more than willing to flaunt that I allow him another woman all over town. He's more than willing to make off-hand comments to random people at the store about it, turn to kiss me, then turn and kiss her and/or grab both of our asses to really RUB IT IN that he's got both of us.

I would never do those things-ever. It's not my nature.
But I can't even kiss GG goodbye without getting an attitude, and I'm talking a light closed mouth kiss, not a deep, passionate make-out kiss.

Even so much as idly running my hand over GG's shoulder results in attitude.

But Maca can make out in public?

To be blunt, I'm just sick of the drama that results when he flip-flops back and forth. I really don't care any more WHAT his decision is. I just need him to MAKE a decision.

I can't continue with him moving in and out, HIM setting up "dates" for GG and I, then having meltdowns over them; HIM promoting things like group outings, then having meltdowns over them; HIM promoting cuddle parties, then having meltdowns over them etc.

I would MUCH RATHER JUST KEEP IT ALL SEPARATED than deal with the meltdowns that follow EVERY SINGLE THING HE GIVES ME.

SNeacail

11-23-2010, 09:32 PM

BUT-he's more than willing to flaunt that I allow him another woman all over town. He's more than willing to make off-hand comments to random people at the store about it, turn to kiss me, then turn and kiss her and/or grab both of our asses to really RUB IT IN that he's got both of us.

It's almost as if he wants you to get mad and react as he would in such a situation. The thing is he can't fully understand your nature, because he is much different. His actions must be judged based on his nature not yours. I get the impression that he is trying to be cruel and this is a form of retaliation.

To be blunt, I'm just sick of the drama that results when he flip-flops back and forth. I really don't care any more WHAT his decision is. I just need him to MAKE a decision.

Is it possible that he has made his decission, but doesn't want to be percieved as the bad guy by walking away from his family? It is sounds like he is doing everything he can think of to make you mad enough that YOU call an end to it. I have seen my brother do this, sometimes not even countiously, but he will be unreasonable, difficult, moody, and just downright unpleasant until his g/f breaks up with him.

LovingRadiance

11-23-2010, 09:47 PM

It's almost as if he wants you to get mad and react as he would in such a situation. The thing is he can't fully understand your nature, because he is much different. His actions must be judged based on his nature not yours. I get the impression that he is trying to be cruel and this is a form of retaliation.
It's interesting that you said this-because he used to tell me all of the time that if I REALLY loved him, I'd get jealous and angry if he was paying attention to someone else. I hadn't thought about that in awhile, but we fought viciously in the early years over me not getting jealous and possessive. He would get spitting mad because he thought it meant that I didn't give a shit about him.

Is it possible that he has made his decission, but doesn't want to be percieved as the bad guy by walking away from his family? It is sounds like he is doing everything he can think of to make you mad enough that YOU call an end to it. I have seen my brother do this, sometimes not even countiously, but he will be unreasonable, difficult, moody, and just downright unpleasant until his g/f breaks up with him. It is possible, but I don't know how to know for sure.

Either way-it seems to me that as I know what I want/believe/need, then I should stay my course regardless.
IF he wants to change his course-then he should change it.....

:rolleyes:

redpepper

11-23-2010, 09:48 PM

well LR, I think if this were me I would quite calmly say, either everyone shows affection at moments that feel comfortable or they don't... end of story. No double standard, no misunderstandings and no power trips...

LovingRadiance

11-23-2010, 09:55 PM

I'm hearing that answer RP. I'm seriously considering that one. Because I'm at a total loss at this point.

LovingRadiance

11-23-2010, 09:57 PM

I think you guys need to come up with new boundaries. No one should ever be completely ignored. Maybe before a group outing/event you and Maca could sit down together, get a feel for his mood and reassure him that your interaction with GG doesn't mean you love him less, but you won't be ignoring him either.

I agree (boundaries).
I agree (ignored).

I have tried the reassuring thing-but it doesn't matter WHAT I do. There's no accountability on his part to manage his emotions. He just reacts as they hit him as though it weren't possible to control one's own emotions.

It's very daunting. It's the EXACT same way my stepson behaves-a behavior Maca is putting the kid into counseling (again) for....
:rolleyes:

LovingRadiance

11-23-2010, 10:04 PM

[QUOTE]I'm gathering from your words, LR, that Maca isn't OK even with private displays? If he doesn't see it then it isn't 'real' so he can just keep going as though everything's hunky dory, he's the ONLY man in your life apart from the kids.Correct-thus why I said it was just polyamory in words, not actions.

I find this very absurd.

I'm curious, are your definitions of public and private the same? I'm not sure. I know for me it depends to some degree. I would deem anything out of the house public for certain.
SOMETHINGS I would deem private at home as long as it's just the household here, but there are other things that I would say need to be ONLY one on one in order to be "private".

GG and I don't kiss beyond a peck in front of Maca either way. We DO NOT make out in front of him ever.
We do hug-he gets attitude every time, but I do it anyway-because I hug EVERYONE. I hugged Mono and RP the first time we met in person. I just hug.
We don't cuddle up together in front of him.
Even when he's organized "cuddle" times for the three of us-we don't cuddle. I will put my hand on his arm or chest, if we're under blankets in a MACA arranged cuddle time I will put one foot by GG's.
That's it.
Literally.

Much hugs. I hope he settles this for himself soon so you can go back to living your life happily. Me too. I hate seeing him hurting and I hate the constant strain of tension and stress.

As an aside: I'm enjoying reading your blog and seeing the process you're going through trying to get through this.
I'm glad someone is. I haven't been very good about writing the last two weeks. It just got overwhelming. It's hard to find the energy to write when I feel like I'm drowning in hopelessness. :(

But I'm glad that when I write it's getting read. ;)

SNeacail

11-23-2010, 10:04 PM

It's the EXACT same way my stepson behaves-a behavior Maca is putting the kid into counseling (again) for....

This is a very hard way to face some of your own deficiencies. Been there done that! However, trying to get a handle on my kids issues has helped me be able to recognize it in myself easier and therefore do something about it sooner.

LovingRadiance

11-23-2010, 10:08 PM

Yeah-he's struggling with that. He's starting to see that the behaviors he detests in his son, are learned from his current behaviors.
I can only imagine.

I (so far) have managed to not have that experience. It's taken a LOT of work, making myself hold myself accountable when I REALLY didn't want to, like, didn't FUCKING WANT TO, but doing it anyway.

Sometimes I admit-I feel like just doing the things I FEEL like doing (or saying) instead of forcing myself to do/say the RIGHT thing every time because it feels like I'm doing it alone.
BUT-I've tried and I can't pull it off.
I can't handle the guilt.

SNeacail

11-23-2010, 10:28 PM

Yeah-he's struggling with that. He's starting to see that the behaviors he detests in his son, are learned from his current behaviors.

If he can see the relation with his kids behavior and his own, that is a huge step. I'm not sure my dad ever did, but it was a huge eye opener for me. It is still a huge struggle and I imagine it will be for the rest of my life. My family makes a point in pointing certain things out to me - as much as it pisses me off at the time, it's probably a good thing. I'm hoping that my son being able to recognize our similar issues and how he doesn't like it in me anymore than I do in him will help him as he gets older.

The feelings and initial reactions are hereditary, our solutions and actions to those feelings are learned. They can be controlled, but it only gets harder the longer we wait.

rabbit

11-24-2010, 06:42 AM

I can identify a little with Maca because I tend to do the same thing when I am struggling with something - I am ok with it in theory and then when it's happening in real life I have a harder time dealing with it. In my brief and disastrous poly relationship I ended up with a big difference between how I *wanted to feel* and how I *felt.* Is Maca like that about other things as well? I would not be surprised if this is less of a poly thing and more of a general difficulty he has in processing emotional responses and having realistic expectations for himself and what he can handle.

For what it's worth, I have done the back and forth thing for more than 14 months (not about poly)... so I can sympathize with Maca on that too. And from seeing my fiance having to support me through that, I can sympathize with you too! Some people just take a long time to process things, I think, but I don't think this length of time means that he will never get better or come to a more favorable resolution.

Anyway, I wish you all the best in figuring this out.

LovingRadiance

11-24-2010, 08:37 PM

Yes Rabbit-he is like that in MANY areas of his life.

In fact we discussed this night before last-that he refuses to stick with any decision (except his career path). He flips back and forth-endlessly.

It makes him crazy, it makes me crazy.
:(

There is no "giving up".

I don't believe in divorce and I don't believe that Love gives up.
SO,
I'm not leaving.
Just trying to find the spot where I can be healthy and happy and allow him the space to be miserable until he does make a choice.

maca

11-25-2010, 06:44 AM

Wow,

Um I feel a little over cooked. This is LR's vent thread so I will refrain from posting a long reply. She is a very loving and patient person and I do love her. That is all I will say at this time. Opening my mouth when I feel hung on a cross has ALWAYS caused me more heart ache and trouble. :)

Maca

LovingRadiance

11-25-2010, 08:29 AM

You are sitting on the loveseat "blended" with me right now.
I love you M.
Someday you are going to figure out that it doesn't matter if you are "worthy" or not. Only that I DO love you.

TL4everu2

11-25-2010, 03:21 PM

Ok, I haven't read ALL of the replies yet. (sorry)

BUT...I DID see the part about how neither of the men involved want to see the other doing PDA's in public. Thats absurd. I LOVE PDA's. Absolutely LOVE them. I love holding hands...kissing...ass grabbing...the whole gambut.

I also noticed how one doesn't want you going out with the other while he's at work. I'm the same way. I don't want my wife L, to go on dates with her boyfriend while I'm at work. I don't know why, but it drives me absolutley batty thinking about it. It's strange, because I don't have an issue with them going out alone. Just going out alone while I'm at work. It drives ME just as apeshit as it does L. She respects me and doesn't do it, but doesn't UNDERSTAND it. I don't either. :( So it's difficult. But the rule applies to me as well. I don't go out on dates with my gf while L is working. I also don't invite my gf over to visit me on my lunch breaks at work unless L is there.

L and I have been married and tied at the hip for 20 years....It could be why. DUNNO.

LovingRadiance

11-25-2010, 10:16 PM

BUT...I DID see the part about how neither of the men involved want to see the other doing PDA's in public. Thats absurd. I LOVE PDA's. Absolutely LOVE them. I love holding hands...kissing...ass grabbing...the whole gambut.

No, Only Maca has issues with me showing affection to GG and it doesn't matter if it's public or not.

GG has no issue with me showing affection to him or Maca in public or not in public. He just tends to NOT show any SEXUALLY suggestive affection in public (or in front of Maca ever).

Maca LOVES to show sexual affection, explicit and suggestive all of the time, especially in front of GG.

TL4everu2

11-25-2010, 10:23 PM

Ahhh...Ok. Thank you for the clarification.

LovingRadiance

11-25-2010, 10:26 PM

I also noticed how one doesn't want you going out with the other while he's at work.

Actually-he just doesn't want me to go out at all. He's sure that every little move is a "sign" that I'm going to leave him, that I'm "planning a new life" for just me and GG and I'm going to leave.

There isn't any logic reason to believe that based on past behavior-I'm not going anywhere.

Maca would actually prefer that if I'm going to spend time with GG-it's when he's at work or otherwise unavailable. He gets flat fucking pissed off if I plan anything-ANYTHING with GG when he's home. When he's here, that's "his" time.
Period.

LovingRadiance

11-25-2010, 10:29 PM

:) No Problem TLR.

I'm working through things-in my head and in my heart.

I took Maca out to dinner last night. :) We had a nice dinner and a nice talk.
This morning he took a huge step and went to the coffee shop for coffee (which he likes to do in the mornings on days off) and woke me so I could go spend 30 minutes with GG before the day started.

:)

One step.

TL4everu2

11-25-2010, 10:47 PM

I also took steps with my wife L and her bf.

I had them go out on a "date" with him which was a scavenger hunt. They had to find certain things and photograph them with the phone and text them to me...in order.

Some of the things I had them do, were highly sexual in nature. I did that to prove to them (and myself) that I had no issues with them playing without me present. (One of the things was a pic of her holding his...ummm...yeah...that)

I had them do this while I was at work. This way, I knew exactly where they were, and I wasn't QUITE as worried about her. I KNOW she won't leave me for anyone else. But for some odd reason, I get bent about her on a date while I'm at work. It still bugs me even after the scavenger hunt experiment. Sooo....yeah.

Now, I thought it would be a problem to see her kissing another guy. So I had her do it and get a pic of it and text it to me. THAT seemed to have worked for me. As I have no issues with seeing this anymore.

Baby steps are the way to go LR. baby steps. The problem, is that often times, the baby steps...are too small, and take too long. And this will ruin a relationship quickly. :( So sometimes, someone has to simply accept the fact that they are uncomfortable with a certain action and either allow it to happen...or end the relationship.

My wife is somewhat jealous from time to time. It makes it highly difficult for me. But I still push forward and try to see where the boundries are. Most boundries I don't know about until I hit them. It makes it difficult.

LovingRadiance

11-26-2010, 02:18 AM

I remember when you organized the scavenger hunt.
I totally agree with the concept of baby steps.

My issue is the combination of-

*we all live together
*we HAVE lived together for 7 years, February will be 8 years.
*It's been 14 months since we agreed to poly.
*Maca's ok with himself doing ALL of these behaviors w/his gf publicly
*and in front of me
*there's no timeline or set of steps to follow towards "normal behavior"
*Maca wants to be a part of my time w/GG AND not see affection-which essentially drops poly out of the picture for GG and I, because if we did things Maca's way-we'd never be together w/o Maca AND therefore we'd never be affectionate-even so much as I am with "normal" friends
*Maca wants to be free to do all of these things with his gf any time SHE is available w/ no forethought to how it fits into our schedule and family

I see this as a severe double standard, one I've been trying to patiently work with in order for Maca to have time to work on his insecurities and know that I will always love him and I'm not leaving-but I don't believe that he's ACTUALLY doing that.
I think he is saying the words-but not holding himself accountable to actually do the work required to deal with insecurities.

OF COURSE I also have insecurities.
It was devastatingly difficult when we were in different states and he was falling in love with his GF, taking her home to our house (against his set rules), then to our bed (against his set rules), making out with her and dating her (behind my back) etc....

I gave him grace, because it was his first time and I felt that he deserved to have grace for making some FUCKED UP mistakes.
But the further things progress the more I feel/sense that he's operating from the mono mindset that I'm moving on-so he's going to also.

Except-I'm not moving on.

TL4everu2

11-26-2010, 02:40 AM

LovingRadiance

11-26-2010, 04:57 AM

LR,
I would agree that this is a severe double standard. However, sometimes, we have them. I have no idea WHY....but we do. YOUR choice is to either LIVE with the double standard...or....leave. :( Sometimes, the choices are not always so bright, and there is no right choice. And sometimes, the one we NEED to make, is the one we don't WANT to make. :/

Very true TL (did I write TLR before? Sorry).

That's why I told him he needed to "move out" until he made a decision. This is my family-and I want it.
There are 10 of us. He is one.
I want him, I love him, but I sure as hell am not giving up the other 8 for him. I just can't do that to myself.

I can give up a LOT of shit-for him or for others.
But not my family.
GG has been part of my family for 17 years, Mimi for 22 years. I love Maca, I love him dearly and I want him to be a part of our family. So does everyone else.
But he has to be willing to be a part of our family for that to work.

I know he wants to-he's scared.
I hope he takes that fear by the scruff of it's neck and puts it in it's place, because we all love him and we all want him
AND

we ALL think he's worthy of being a part of this family and that we will all benefit from him being part of it-for LIFE.

OneUncagedBird

11-27-2010, 06:33 AM

I am new to all of this but not new to the bullshit of someone saying what they think you want to hear and feeling something completely different. There is no way in hell you could convince me he really wants to live in a poly relationship with you and GG. He wants you, and since he has others he wants them. But, he doesn't want you to have another. He honestly can't deal with it. He has peed all over you to mark his territory but does not want to allow you the same priviledges he enjoys. Move on, hold onto GG and find more and better love with another. Despite what people say, it is what they do that really counts. And his strict rules and jealousy say the opposite of what his mouth puts out there. I feel for you and hope you can move on to something better and leave the ugly bullshit behind.:(

Breathesgirl

11-27-2010, 11:17 AM

Thinking over the things which have been said on this thread over the last little while brings to mind my boys' dad.

He's super jealous, holds a grudge for ever & a year (not that Maca does as you haven't mentioned it), didn't like me going out without him, even for groceries, couldn't stand it if I was talking on the phone or computer because then he couldn't hear the other end of the conversation (I guess he thought I was talking in code about him???), has a very foul temper, tries to talk to whoever's on the phone while they're trying to carry on a conversation with someone else ....

I was extremely unhappy when I was with him & still don't know what attracted me to him. I ended up having to leave him because I couldn't handle it any more. I was more lonely than I had ever been in my life because I had lost the few friends I had through his mental & emotional abuse.

I hope you find the strength to do what is right for you. I hope Maca finds it in his heart & mind to forgive you and GG and to come home so all of you can forge a new path forward TOGETHER.

LovingRadiance

11-28-2010, 12:54 AM

Breathes-
I hope he does too.

I think we're making progress in terms of figuring out where we each are (Maca and I) and what that MEANS.

We took a long walk (freezing fucking cold walk I might add) on Thanksgiving. He's been reading this thread-just not writing. (thank you M).

We talked about how it felt to him to read it, how his first response was wanting to write out a big long defense. But, instead he took a drive, and thought over the situation and decided that defending himself, he COULD make it look different, but it wouldn't help anything.

The bottom line is that he's never had anyone like me in his life. He's had a life full of liars and cheats who were ONLY out for themself. I did lie. I did cheat. I wasn't only out for myself. I did admit I was wrong-but not because I got caught. I admit I was wrong-because I was wrong and I don't want to be those things.
But that is a totally new reaction for him to see.

That said-he has a lot of shit to work through. He is seeing it more, through his own eyes. He doesn't like what he see's, but my prayer is that he also see's the good side of what could be. It doesn't have to be the shithole he's used to.

MonoVCPHG

11-28-2010, 02:16 AM

That said-he has a lot of shit to work through. He is seeing it more, through his own eyes. He doesn't like what he see's, but my prayer is that he also see's the good side of what could be. It doesn't have to be the shithole he's used to.

Our family is always available to lend support to yours LR. Wish we could have another chat in person :o

LovingRadiance

11-28-2010, 03:59 AM

ME TOO!
I was supposed to buy tickets to Kauai for Maca and I for Xmas. But there were complications and I didn't get to.
So we've been looking at Washington/Canada again, but we haven't bought any yet.
Too much going on, too much stress. :(

LovingRadiance

01-03-2011, 02:10 AM

So,
Maca has met someone he's interested in having as a full-time girlfriend.

Now, he's interested in changing some of the "rules" and "boundaries" that were in place before. He says that he now understands how the limitations he put on GG and I were unfair, unreasonable and limited our ability to have a real relationship.

I'm glad he is seeing this. But I'm frustrated with wondering if he REALLY see's it, or if it's just a "well shit, those rules don't allow me to do what I want-so I'm going to have to change them to do what I want" situation..........:confused: :(

maca

01-03-2011, 02:27 AM

There really is only one way to know, Lover.

I cant make you believe me or trust my words but I can tell you that, having to face my own insecurities and fears has changed my prespective.
In the last few days, I have not only been at ease with you and GG but Ive not felt the instictive reaction of jealousy and fear. Thats not to say that I dont still have issues that I need to be mindful of and be in control of, but its alot easier now that I understand how my fears have been so limiting to your relationship with GG.
Even if things dont work out with R, Ive learned some things by being with her. Things that make me a better person.

Maca

TL4everu2

01-03-2011, 03:16 AM

This sounds mean....but I'm glad to see other cpls on here who are having issues....Other than my wife and myself.

I honestly hope everything works out for you guys Maca and LR and GG. ;)

LovingRadiance

01-03-2011, 04:34 AM

Maca-I love you.

LovingRadiance

01-03-2011, 04:35 AM

This sounds mean....but I'm glad to see other cpls on here who are having issues....Other than my wife and myself.

I honestly hope everything works out for you guys Maca and LR and GG. ;)

I understand what you are saying. I think we'll get there. We've already made progress through SO MANY things together. It's just a matter of "sticking it out til you get there".
;)

It's the significant difference between "forever" and FOREVER.
Our love is FOREVER.
So there isn't another option but to work it out or die trying.

SNeacail

01-03-2011, 04:51 AM

This sounds mean....but I'm glad to see other cpls on here who are having issues....Other than my wife and myself.

Actually, it breaks my heart when I see people having issues. However, on the other hand, I find myself personally relating to something and I start thinking how can I change my behavior the next time I find myself in a similar situation with my husband. I end up saying to myself, "See, it doesn't have to be the end of the world. Stop over-reacting and find another approach to find a solution."

I am grateful for those who are willing to share their issues, because it does make me feel not so alone with my issues and give me alternate views that I would not have seen on my own.

TL4everu2

01-03-2011, 01:16 PM

I am grateful for those who are willing to share their issues, because it does make me feel not so alone with my issues and give me alternate views that I would not have seen on my own.Uou put it so much better than me. Thank you. :)

eklctc

01-08-2011, 05:15 AM

TL4- you're funny. I understand what you mean, though. It doesn't break my heart to read the issues in others' relationships because I accept it as a reality and, without issues, there is no growth, there is no mirror to evaluate self in, there is no light at the end of the tunnel... I look forward to all of those things. It's good to see people who are open enough to sharing the not so stellar parts of their relationships as well as the fantastic parts. For people who are curious, it shows everyone that, no matter the 'make-up' of a relationship, they all work the same in the end. Thanks for sharing, LR. I hope your Maca does honestly 'get it' and see versus desiring changes for selfish reasons. It could be a little of both but it's growth and it seems you are well-prepared to work through it.

LovingRadiance

01-11-2011, 02:45 AM

Well.....

I bought the tickets to Hawaii-for September/October.

Later this month I'm buying myself a ticket to Victoria for July/August.

I set out a suggested "new boundary list" (which wasn't received well initially).

We've started preliminary discussions about the list, changes that we can agree need to be made and definitions of some of the words in it.

Maca now understands that having overnights with GG isn't something I'm looking for right now and we've agreed that our bedroom is "off limits" to any other lovers-for either of us. (I'd already agreed to not have GG in there).

I'm working out details for some of the other (not pertinent to sex/lovers) boundaries that I need to have in my life, something I've never taken time to do out of a sense that I didn't have the "Right" to do that.

I'm working my ass off on self-improvement.

I researched a load of info about how NRE is related to the chemistry in our brains AND how that is impacted by/how it impacts someone with ADD & depression; because Maca and I both suffer from ADD & depression, and GG has ADD.

It's been very enlightening (and disturbing); but the postive note in it was that it has been very disturbingly interesting to Maca as well. This has resulted in him wanting to do some educating of himself in areas that pertain to relationships/life.

eklctc

01-16-2011, 12:26 AM

Well, it sounds like you guys are diligently working towards growth and knowledge which is always great. I wish you the best.

LovingRadiance

01-16-2011, 05:32 AM

Thanks.
We're trying.

:)

SchrodingersCat

01-17-2011, 12:20 AM

It's very daunting. It's the EXACT same way my stepson behaves-a behavior Maca is putting the kid into counseling (again) for....

So that shows that Maca recognizes this behaviour is in appropriate, and that he sees the value that counselling can have in changing inappropriate behaviour. Those are both good signs.

Would he be willing to get counselling too? Because he seems to recognize that all the counselling in the world won't help his son a bit if his primary male role model is displaying the same behaviour. Further, if Maca is able to change this behaviour, he might find that his son's behaviour changes itself...

I see this as a severe double standard, one I've been trying to patiently work with in order for Maca to have time to work on his insecurities and know that I will always love him and I'm not leaving-but I don't believe that he's ACTUALLY doing that.

What about putting a time limit on it? Declare that you'll only refrain yourself from displaying affection to GG in front of Maca until such date, after which Maca will just have to suck it up. And if he wants to throw a fit in public, then you and GG will calmly walk away and pretend not to know the crazy adult having a temper tantrum in the middle of the mall...

There comes a point where patience becomes enablement. By allowing him to control your actions and plan your schedule, you're telling him it's ok for him to do that. You have free will, and you can choose not to obey his commands. People stick with what works: right now, Maca having fits prevents you from doing things he doesn't like. If it stops working, he'll be forced to change his game plan.

LovingRadiance

02-02-2011, 11:38 PM

Saturday/Sunday we stayed up all night and all day talking (Maca and I).

He expressed that he understood why it's hard for me to open up and trust him, rely on him because he's been so "wishy washy" about doing the work needed in order to make this relationship work etc.

He said he was determined and committed to doing the work and making things work.

Every day since he's been moody and insecure, the emotions hovering just below the surface. I've tried to talk with him, reassure him, comfort him etc.

Tuesday we had a good day together. Then just before bed he got pissed, because I told GG that I had written to him adn he wasn't going to appreciate it-but needed to read it. Maca was jealous-because I hadn't written him.
He said, "that was rude".
The conversation went downhill quite quickly and I went to bed.

He came down a little while later and apologized, said he had overreacted etc. We talked about the difference (again) between judging someone/verbally attacking them and expressing ones' own emotion.

It was tense, and I'm feeling guarded again-it's only been a couple DAYS since our talk about how he was going to hold himself accountable to do this stuff..... it's a repetitious pattern. A cycle of emotional/mental abuse and I feel like a moron letting it continue.

I slept on the couch.

This morning he came up and asked me why-I told him I didn't feel comfortable in our room.

He got angry and he's decided he's getting an apartment. He said we need to discuss the $ situation tonight and figure out how to cut expenses (I'm running out of options there) so that he can afford his own place.

The truth is that without another income in the house-there isn't a way to make it work. So either I have to go to work, or he'd have to have a roommate or something. I need a bare minimum of $2000 after GG's income to cover the basic household expenses not including groceries, gas, medication, assundries.....

On top of all of that, what the hell does him getting an apartment MEAN?

I just want the drama to stop. I'm so tired of it all.
:(

maca

02-03-2011, 03:04 AM

There comes a point when its blatantly obvious that the person you love is is hurting more because of being with you then if they were without you. I have tried for a long time to "learn" to accept and love you the way that you want me to. To stand by and watch you move on with another man. I have tried, tried to save our marriage and family, tried to save our love and commitment to eachother.

You hate being here, you hate being with me, you hate your life. I cant keep watching you hurt and hate anymore. I told GG that there comes a point when you have to decide if you are doing more damage then good to someone that you love. Sometimes we have to sacrafice our dreams for the ones we love to be able to be the best version of themselves.

LovingRadiance

02-03-2011, 07:14 AM

As I told you in person-after having read your post:

That's not reasonable or rational.

Nothing changed between Sunday when you were all gung-ho and last night when you verbally attacked me. After losing my temper-and your subsequent apology I chose to be responsible and take my overwrought emotions to the couch-giving myself time to process my emotions in order to deal with the situation reasonably.
I didn't do anything to warrant you attacking me this morning with demands to discuss finances so you could move out.

Using my "feelings" that you are assuming with no input from me, is not a legitimate method for communication or dealing with relationships.

If YOU have a need to leave-that is absolutely reasonable for you to state, but to state that it's FOR ME when I haven't stated that you leaving will in any way benefit me, is not reasonable at all.

I agree with Mimi-your money would be MUCH MUCH better spent on counseling than on an apartment. Twice a week with a therapist actively pursing improving YOURSELF, your communication and establishing what it is that you actually want for your life would be much more beneficial to you, us, the family and the kids than you getting an apartment and avoiding the issues that continue to plague you.

SNeacail

02-03-2011, 07:25 AM

Hugs to you both

MonoVCPHG

02-03-2011, 07:27 AM

Sending whatever energy I can to your family LR. Wish I could do more :o

LovingRadiance

02-03-2011, 07:33 AM

Don't forget yours m'dear. ;)

I'm getting ready to go eat a pbj, then off to bed.

Maca is already asleep.
GG is here, but working.

LovingRadiance

02-03-2011, 07:37 AM

Idk what the hell my problem is, but I was thinking this was RP's thread and so I was going to this thread to write the "update".
rolling eyes at self.

ANYWAY-
Maca is having surgery next week (not sure when yet).
He tore the tendon off the bone, they have to reattach it and then use wire to "hold it in place".
Then he's got 8-12 weeks of being in a brace (it's all elaborate) and physical therapy with no turning or lifting. He can move his arm, but no lifting.

:(
He's not impressed and to boot they told him he stands to lose 50% of the "usage" of that arm (his primary arm).
Suffice it to say that emotionally he's a wreck,

which if I were in "psychologist mode" I would assess as the reason why he's also in "attack mode" with me.

Whenever he feels insecure about his worth-he attacks me. He knows it-I know it.
But-he can't seem to control it.

:(

No idea what it matters that I know that, because it doesn't change the negative and destructive impact it has on our whole family.

One of the things i HATE about "knowing" things that I can't do a damn thing about.

It's like KNOWING that the person you are watching is going to get hit by a car and killed, but all you can do is stand and watch.
:(

SNeacail

02-03-2011, 08:08 AM

Tell Maca that the doctors are giving worst case senarios. The human body is an amazing machine and tends to defy doctors ominous predictions. It also tends to find ways to compensate for stuff that doesn't work.

About 5 years ago, my husband fell off a ladder and shattered his wrist. So on Christmas Eve, we were sitting in a hospital waiting room waiting for him to get out of surgery. He now has a metal plate and screws holding his wrist together. He was told that he could loose 30-80% use of his hand. It took him over a year, but has gained back nearly full use of his hand. There is limitation in his range of motion, but the biggest thing was just getting used to working within the limitations. One of the hardest things was that after 5 months with almost no use (except PT), his hand was very week. He had to think about stuff that used to come natural.

My husband is normally pretty even tempered and not one to get overly emotional. That's usually my thing :rolleyes:. But OMG, that year was the most emotional and irrational I have ever seen him. He didn't even see it nor would he even admit it when it was pointed out. The thing is, it wasn't the pain, it was everything, including the body just trying to heal itself. Even his blood preassure was dangerously elevated for over a year and then all of a sudden his emotions stabalized and his blood preassure stopped spiking.

TL4everu2

02-03-2011, 12:09 PM

LR,
Big hugs your way. Along with a bit of advise. Worry about that which you can change or prevent. The rest, you have to simply let it happen. However, it has been MY experience, that we consern ourselves the most with things which we FEEL we can change. (This doesn't mean we CAN change them,.....Just that we THINK we can....Big difference) Let Maca have his space. Stay clear while he vents. Be close by to support. Offer no menacing words. Just be there. He is hurting....mentally, and physically. He does things to you, which he knows he can get away with. You are like a security blanket for him. He knows you will always be there for him. It's tough, but continue to be that blanket. Trust me....it works out in the end. My wife (of 20 years) and I do the same exact thing to each other. We (as humans) do this because we know that if we did the same things to someone else, they would leave.

Be strong. We are here to support you....You be there to support him. ;)

LovingRadiance

02-03-2011, 05:59 PM

His coworker fell off a ladder 14 years ago, onto him. Broke his wrist. He has a plate and screws in it as well. Same arm.

I told him this morning that I know he's hurting and scared, that I'm assuming it's because of his arm; and that is why he's attacking me.

The conversation ended with him on his knees, head on his hand, on the door knob telling me that he's reading the book "Opening Up" and realizing that he's not polyamorous, he's got a swinger mentality. He said he hasn't decided what he can or can't deal with "other people" doing differently than him.
When I asked him to clarify he acknowledged that he meant he hasnt' decided if he can deal with me being polyamorous when he would prefer swinging within a closed group but focus being on the "primary relationship" and secondaries being "just secondaries".

Then he left for work.

I'm not like that-and I've always known he was ok with "casual sex" situations. But I'm not.

I'm SO not, that I'm not ok with being sexually involved with him now.

BECAUSE-

he's undecided if he's in or out of our relationship. I'm not ok with having sex with someone who isn't fully committed to having a long-term relationship with me.

If he decides that he IS-great.
But until he decides-I just can't do it.

So, now I have to tell him that. :(

I don't expect it will go over well. He's in a bad space already.
I don't know how to get around it though. I can't be honest AND take care of my NEEDS without telling him.....

He's going to see this as a "you just want to be with GG". But the truth is that right now-I don't want that either. GG's always respected that when there are problems with Maca and I-I don't want the sexual affection from him. I dont want it at all. So I don't expect him to react badly.

I just can't. I can't give myself sexually to someone who isn't committed.
I can't give myself sexually when I'm feeling off balance.

The security of my life has just been ripped out from under me (again).

Security is a huge issue for me. I'm not insecure in the sense that if someone tells me that they love someone else I feel insecure.

I'm insecure when I don't know what the plan is. I am comfortable with the fact that sometimes the plan has to be changed midway; but until a plan is in place and a course agreed upon, I feel insecure and unsure.

When feeling insecure and unsure-I can't have sex, or I feel used.... like so much chattel.

LovingRadiance

02-03-2011, 08:28 PM

If I may make a suggestion, get a therapist together. If he is willing, go with him. I'm not comfortable going by myself and I tend to share more when my husband is there than when I'm by myself. I need his support to bring up the hard issues. I don't have a problem talking about it in front of him, but I do when I'm alone. You can always offer to leave the room, if it's necessary or prefered.

I have, and I did again today suggest that.

Unfortunately, when we went last (which wasn't the first time) the therapist identified by our second visit that he really needed to work with Maca on his issues one on one before he could address our issues (primarily communication). The issue being that even "proper, non-violent communication" wasn't getting anywhere because every time I speak, Maca hears judgment and condemnation.

Maca started seeing him alone-and was getting a LOT of benefit, but then he stopped going.

He decided a few months ago (when he moved out in Oct) that he needed to go back. But instead of going BACK TO THAT THERAPIST who was helping him and making progress AND working with us-he opted for a different therapist. That was the 7th of November.
He didn't like that therapist-so he quit.....,

The number one issue that keeps us from making progress in our relationship is Maca's lack of commitment.

It doesn't matter WHAT you try, how you say it, where you go, when you do it. If you don't have commitment-nothing will work.

It clicked for me today.

When he freaks out and gets angry, emotional and goes into attack mode, he keeps telling me I'm not committed to our relationship. I keep asking (as recently as last night again) what actions or words suggest that. He never has an answer-because there isn't one. I am committed and I always was.

When he's calm and being rational he tells me how amazed he is that I'm so committed, that I haven't left him "yet", that I've stuck by him etc etc etc.

So it's clear that he does recognize that I am committed, and the actions which represent that commitment-when he's coherent, sensible and rational.

Which also makes it even CLEARER that when he's acting like this-he is NOT coherent, sensible, rational.

But-the other side of that coin-which goes unexpressed is this.
I don't tell him that he's not committed, however, he himself states that when things get tough, when he starts to feel insecure, frightened, worried, upset etc-he decides to leave.... he lets go of his commitment.
The wedding ring comes off, he packs his stuff and leave.

Up to this point-while silently trying to allow him the freedom to do whatever it is he needs to do to gain control of himself and his life: I've been thinking "it must be fucking nice to know I'll always be here to take care of our family, our home, our expenses, our life so that you can run away to deal with your shit." Because I've resented that he does that-and I don't.

But-today it hit me like a ton of bricks-

He's projecting HIS actions, motivations, emotions onto me.
He's telling me I'm not committed, because he's not committed.
He's telling me I'm not loving him, because he's not loving him.
He's telling me I'd be happier without him, because he'd be happier without him.

I told him this morning that I'd go to the first appointment, every appointment or no appointments-whatever he and the therapist felt was best; but a therapist was NEEDED-LONG TERM.
He asked me if that was an ultimatum.

It's not an ultimatum; but he and therefore we are down to two options,

run away from himself and our relationship/family and stay miserable
or
get help from a trained professional for as long as it takes to resolve the issue.

There's just not any other options and as I told him, I'm not a trained professional.

Fidelia

02-03-2011, 11:25 PM

Big hugs for all of you, LR.

I'm so sorry for all that y'all are going through. :(

I wish I had some words of wisdom or some magic panacea to share. I don't. But I am sending healing love your way. For all of you.

Be strong, SisterWoman. Better days are coming.

LovingRadiance

02-03-2011, 11:57 PM

Thanks Fidelia,
I'm trying.
I'm not sure I'm managing to stay strong, but I'm trying.

I got a text today,

"take care of yourself first. You are your primary."

That was early this morning and it has helped me to focus my thoughts a bit. I don't think I'm doing it (taking care of me first or being a good primary to myself) but I think I'm seeing where I need to change my behavior in order to do that...
I'm working on it.

Breathesgirl

02-04-2011, 02:43 AM

Thanks Fidelia,

I got a text today,

"take care of yourself first. You are your primary."

.
I'm working on it.

You're working on it! That says a lot in, & of, itself! You care enough about the rest of the family to work on yourself in order to be there for them when they need you.

A lot, LOT, of people have given me flack over the years because I tell them to be their own primary first and foremost!! You can't be there for lovers, children, friends, even strangers if you don't take care of yourself!

Something you said a couple of posts ago hits home with me. Commitment to a PLAN! I'm the type that needs to have some sort of plan, calendar if you will, of what's going to happen & when. If I don't have the plan I feel all adrift and out of sorts. It can, and frequently does, change part way through & that's fine, expected even, but don't just spring things on me!

Many, MANY hugs to all of you, extra ones for all the kiddos. I wish Ontario was a lot closer to Alaska so I could deliver those hugs in person *sigh*.

nycindie

02-04-2011, 03:16 AM

You hate being here, you hate being with me, you hate your life. I cant keep watching you hurt and hate anymore.
Sheesh, Maca, get off the pity pot!

You are injured and feeling vulnerable. I think you hate feeling vulnerable. Guess what, there's nothing wrong with it, so stop fighting it! Just as LR has to be her own primary, so do you. Why, when you have a physical issue here that needs your attention and for you to treat yourself well, do you all of a sudden think you have to figure out your relationship? You've got a fucking torn tendon, deal with that and all the feelings it brings up! So what if LR slept on the couch, why make it all about you and have a tantrum? Can't she want to be alone, ever, without it meaning something big and heavy about you?

You're feeling sorry for yourself, which isn't the best frame of mind to make big decisions. Now that you are immobilized, you have more time for therapy (both phys. and emotional) and get in touch with your feelings and really deal with them. This is an opportunity!

LR, it's not the end of the world. You seem to be feeling victimized. You seem to focus on the idea that Maca attacked you, and now you've had enough. It may be true, but you are strong, step back and take an objective look at things. You've been hurting and upset for a while now, and are exasperated with it all. You seem to be unraveling and losing patience, I think because you've spread yourself too thin. I think you need more "me" time to take care of yourself, just as Maca does. The two of you can come together stronger and more in love if you both stop looking at the other to complete you and be compassionate with yourselves. If you were in NYC (and I could afford it), I'd give you a spa day.

That's how I see it. Hope you don't mind me jumping in. I say all this with affection and sending you good vibes.

maca

02-04-2011, 03:38 AM

For what its worth, I wanted to express my gratifacation to everyone for giving there thoughts and inputs.

Im making a mess of our relationship, Im hurting the only woman that I love and Im miserable. I suggested that I should move out because it dosnt matter how much reading,talking,counseling,posting or how vulnerable I am. Its ( I have no other words to express this) never enough. LR writes all over the place that if she could leave this life behind she would. She cant bring herself to do it, for many reasons,but that dosnt mean that she wouldnt if she could.

I feel so incapable of being the person she wants me to be and I feel like a failure. I dont want to take the easy way out ( moving out) but its the only thing that I seem to be able to do without being a failure. I KNOW that giving up is a fixed mind set and its not helping me to be a better version of myself or anyone else. Im afraid of what could happen with the surgery on my arm. Im no good at love or relationships, take away what I am good at (working and making money) and whats left??

Im going to go back to the first therapist that I was seeing. We were making good progress and then the money ran out. I went to another guy that I was told " was poly friendly". That was not really true, he was/is ok with alternative lifestyles but he had been burnt in a "poly like relationship" and had bad feelings about it. So after he started ripping on LR I decided that he was not going to be helpful. The first therapist is christian based and I dont feel like I can talk to him about poly anything. LR thinks that I dont need to talk about poly, that my issues have nothing to do with poly or the fact that she had an affair and is now openly in a relationship and having sex with another man. She may or may not be completly right about that, but I cant be open and honest if Im leaving out one of the major parts of my life.

At this point, anything that I say to LR, she repeats back to me adding the emotions that go along with my statment and asking if that is correct. Its a technique from NVC ( non violent communication) and one that the first therapist was working with us on. Its a good way to talk about touchy subjects. Its a little.... frustrating when its used with EVERY comment made. I do appreciate the fact that our relationship means so much to her that she is willing to go through that much effort in the hopes that we can work things out. I know that she loves me more than most anything else in this world.

I know its alot to ask for LR, but thank you for your continued patience and love.

MonoVCPHG

02-04-2011, 03:44 AM

I know its alot to ask for LR, but thank you for your continued patience and love.

Stay strong brother.

maca

02-04-2011, 03:50 AM

So what if LR slept on the couch, why make it all about you and have a tantrum? Can't she want to be alone, ever, without it meaning something big and heavy about you?

.

Absolutly, she can and should have alone time. I have tried to afford her that so many times and the answer is always " I cant" for some reason or another.

We have both talked about the importance of taking a " time out" to regroup and give ourselves time to think. We have agreed that we need to tell the other that we are "taking a time out and that we will come back". We talked, had what LR agreed to as a good talk and then she turned the light out. I awoke to find her sleeping either on the couch or in GG's bed ( while he slept on the floor upstairs). Its not a matter of alone time its about not sharing that she needed/wanted alone time AND that she would return at some point.

Its part of fair fighting, which addmitadly I dont NOT always follow very well.:(

nycindie

02-04-2011, 04:15 AM

Maca, I didn't mean to sound harsh. But to me, it seems you both need to be more gentle with yourselves, without the self-pity, and to each other. And to be on the lookout for those things that you find offensive, so you can examine why you react that way. For example, maybe she still intended to come back, but in the morning, not when you thought she should. But when you're feeling vulnerable and hyper-sensitive, it's easy to blow things out of proportion.

Relationships are hard sometimes, but you are both much more in tune with what's going on with yourselves than most folks are, so you're really ahead of the game and have a better chance at making it work than lots of the poor bastards out there!

You two can do it!

maca

02-04-2011, 04:25 AM

Im sorry if I came across as defensive. That was not my intention. Its hard.....

Im going to stop writing now and take a time out. Ill spend some time thinking and Ill come back to this tomorrow evening.

SNeacail

02-04-2011, 05:54 AM

Im making a mess of our relationship, Im hurting the only woman that I love and Im miserable. I suggested that I should move out because it dosnt matter how much reading,talking,counseling,posting or how vulnerable I am. Its ( I have no other words to express this) never enough. LR writes all over the place that if she could leave this life behind she would. She cant bring herself to do it, for many reasons,but that dosnt mean that she wouldnt if she could.

For what it's worth, I get this and have done it many time and it pisses my husband off everytime. I fully admit and agree that it is lousy fight tactics and it accomplishes nothing (working toward change). The thing is, in the heat of the moment, it does seem like the only option available when the pain is so unbearable that it is crushing your heart from the inside.

Im afraid of what could happen with the surgery on my arm.

Hugs, prayers and possitive thoughts for the best outcome and recovery. Some men just have to be the hero:p

The first therapist is christian based and I dont feel like I can talk to him about poly anything. LR thinks that I dont need to talk about poly, that my issues have nothing to do with poly or the fact that she had an affair and is now openly in a relationship and having sex with another man. She may or may not be completly right about that, but I cant be open and honest if Im leaving out one of the major parts of my life.

You won't know until you try. I have heard others here just flat tell the therapist that "this is my life, help me navigate within it". It seemed to work for them, worth a try.:rolleyes:

I do appreciate the fact that our relationship means so much to her that she is willing to go through that much effort in the hopes that we can work things out. I know that she loves me more than most anything else in this world.

I know its alot to ask for LR, but thank you for your continued patience and love.

I think she needs to hear this more. She thinks you are worth it, don't forget that!

LovingRadiance

02-04-2011, 08:32 AM

You're working on it! That says a lot in, & of, itself! You care enough about the rest of the family to work on yourself in order to be there for them when they need you.

Many, MANY hugs to all of you, extra ones for all the kiddos. I wish Ontario was a lot closer to Alaska so I could deliver those hugs in person *sigh*.

LR, it's not the end of the world. You seem to be feeling victimized. You seem to focus on the idea that Maca attacked you, and now you've had enough. It may be true, but you are strong, step back and take an objective look at things. You've been hurting and upset for a while now, and are exasperated with it all. You seem to be unraveling and losing patience, I think because you've spread yourself too thin. I think you need more "me" time to take care of yourself, just as Maca does. The two of you can come together stronger and more in love if you both stop looking at the other to complete you and be compassionate with yourselves. If you were in NYC (and I could afford it), I'd give you a spa day.

That's how I see it. Hope you don't mind me jumping in. I say all this with affection and sending you good vibes.

Thank you both.
Yes, I DO need time to myself. I'm TRYING very hard to look inward at myself and identify what it is that I need, state it without condemnation or blame and then hold myself accountable to giving it to myself.
It's not easy.
But, with the support of honest friends like all of you-I know I can manage it.
:)

Breathesgirl

02-04-2011, 11:36 AM

Maca: I don't think LR means to simply run away from the life you have together. You ALL mean so much more to her than that. (Please LR, correct me if I'm wrong on this.)

I think she's wanting to run away from responsibility and sucky situations for a short time hence the trip later this year to a polycon--so she can regroup & rediscover HERSELF.

Look at it--she's your wife, a mom AND grandma (to be? not sure if the baby was born yet?), teacher, therapist, doctor/nurse, lover, best friend, chief cook & bottle washer and so many other things thrown in there!

When you're the type of person who gives and gives and gives of yourself so others can be happy and who and what they are you (generic you) end up giving so much that it's detrimental to yourself as a whole.

From what I can read of LR here and at WordPress she's a VERY loving person who, a lot of the time, gives too much of herself, time and resources. When you give too much of yourself it's hard, really hard, to be selfish and simply say "back off, give me some space so I can breathe". It also tends to deplete your reserves of patience & being willing to give so when the giving becomes too much you simply MUST step back & breathe. She is learning this, please be patient.

Remember: there IS a reason the two of you fell in love. Something each of you saw in the other that attracted you to each other. What was that something? (You don't have to answer here)

Despite the fact you are currently having problems you DO love each other. I can see it in the words I read from both of you. You wouldn't be here, venting (or venting to someone face to face) if you weren't trying to find the rhyme and reason to what's going on.

Is there a way the two of you could maybe step back from the current situation and just appreciate what you mean to each other? Take a time out and just visit with each other without talking about the problems and appreciate what you like about each other?

I may be WAY off base here but I'm wondering, Maca, if you've really forgiven LR AND GG for the cheating and deception. There's another thread here that talks about thinking you've forgiven and/or forgotten past transgressions when you really haven't, all you've done is found a way around it rather than facing it head on & banishing it to the aether.

Good luck on your surgery next week. Try not to dwell on the dismal way the doctors are talking. They're just trying to not get your hopes up that you will have 100% use of that arm again. There's a better than even chance that you WILL regain most, if not all, the use in that arm eventually.

Many hugs to all of you. There is light at the end of the tunnel.

LovingRadiance

02-04-2011, 11:54 PM

Breathes-
you are correct.

I hate the unnecessary drama.
I hate living with people who don't chose to think before they speak/act.
I hate living with people who don't take full responsibility for their own words and actions.

That doesn't mean I hate the people. I don't.
I don't stay because I CAN'T leave.

I stay because I believe that they can change.

For example, Maca keeps telling me he WANTS to change.

So-change, yes you are going to screw up in the process-but when you do, accept the consequences (including me being pissed off at you for treating me like shit) with grace and the understanding that you screwed up. Acknowledge your screw up honestly and openly so that we can help you fix it.

Don't threaten to walk out.
Don't make excuses like "she hates it here" when the problem is that YOU said YOU wanted to change and YOU screwed up.
Don't blame others or try to avoid taking the blame.
Don't give up.

I fuck up all of the time-ALL OF THE TIME.
I'm expected to deal with the consequences.

Lets be fair-lets be reasonable.

Stop playing "poor poor me" music
and
start playing "what did I do to exacerbate or cause this situation? How can I fix it now?" music IN OUR OWN EARS AND THEN START ACTING ON IT.

eklctc

02-05-2011, 02:34 AM

I've been so out of the loop of lately but I did skim through some of the last ten postings. LR, I totally agree with your last posting. It's hard to do for many people- and many people do not live that way-in a way that makes it 'simple'- but it's not impossible to accomplish. However, it does take the ability to look long, hard, and honestly at oneself and vow to make those changes by exercising moment-by-moment awareness. It'll be ugly, it'll be draining, and it just may clear out various things in one's life that they didn't realize needed to be cleared out but there will come a time, looking back on the most trying times of the process, of clarity and satisfaction. I'm sending you and yours loads of love, support, and reflection vibes~~~~~*hugs*

LovingRadiance

02-05-2011, 05:36 AM

Thank you Eclektic (I don't know how to spell it and I can't see it from this screen sorry!)

I talked with maca tonight.

He's back in a place where he says that he understands that he needs to choose to "take a leap of faith" because he's afraid that if he is vulnerable (and honest) with anyone-they will take advantage of his vulnerablilities.
He's also back in a place where he says that he knows I have been trying to be supportive of him.

There's so much more.

The bottom line is-this isn't a new place for him, for us. It's the same place that we've been in for years now. He rocks back and forth between "oh my god I'm such a fuck up" and "fuck you it's all your fault"...

I told him this evening-I love him.
If my choice is to live with the REAL him-the him that is happy with himself and being true to himself, or without him-I would choose to be with him.

But-
if the choice is to continue to live with this version of him that reminds me of a demon-possessed person in the movies, or without him. I would choose to be without him.

I also told him-that I can't continue to battle FOR him at the expense of myself and our children.
So, either he makes the choice to do the battle for himself-with himself or I won't have a choice but to leave. He knows-I would never keep the kids from him. But I didn't mince words that as things stand, he can't take care of himself emotionally-so I can't trust him to take care of our children.

He didn't argue or disagree. He's heartbroken (still/again), he understands at the moment.

I pray this is the moment where it "sticks" and he commits to moving forward.
I worry that it's not.
But I pray that it is.