Rules and boundaries [Archive] - Polyamory.com Forum

moon

06-12-2009, 08:39 PM

Hi there, I just wanted to ask a general question about the rules and boundaries that you have agreed with your partner/spouse/lovers that allows you all to function healthily within a poly lifestyle please?

The last time me and my husband thought we were ok within our rules I broke one in a very stupid mistake, which I definitely don't intend to repeat!

At that time the rules were (due to our careers and having a young son) we remain sacred and primary, no over night stays, no unprotected sex, no-one in our bed, no involvement with our son and being discrete (hope I haven't forgotten any) but those were the main ones.

Having spent a few days reading through many of the posts on here, many of you are much more open/involved than this, sharing beds, families etc etc...I take my hat off to you :-) the love, compassion, integrity and humility shine through your posts.

I just wondered if any of you have similar rules, but have amended them when they were put into practice? Or have any opinions on the rules we outlined? I would like to learn :-)...

Many thanks
moon xx

AutumnalTone

06-13-2009, 02:31 AM

Um, well, let's see...we don't do unprotected sex unless we're fluid bonded with a partner. (Fluid bonding involves testing for STIs and the understanding that sex with folks who aren't bonded has to be safe.)

Other than that, I'm sort of at a loss. I prefer that any dates meet my wife early on, to make certain that they register that I am married, my wife knows I date other women, and that she's OK with it. Anybody who would refuse to meet my wife isn't somebody with whom I'll get involved.

I know of people who find the idea of rules useless. They only get involved with people whom they trust to deal honorably with all involved and who will break off ties to anybody who can't behave decently. That's about where we are.

That said, a set of negotiated rules can provide security when learning the ropes. There are lots of folks who have rules and have had rules for years.

So, I don't think there's any generalized approach to it. Some folks have lots of rules, others have few, still others have none.

TheMunkeys

07-06-2009, 08:48 AM

My husband and I have set up rules to help us learn to move beyond trusting each other. Not that we don't but so that there will be accountability on both parts. We have pretty much the same rules but have made adjustments as time passes. I will admit that I have trust issues but my husband was the only person that broke down my barriers. I trust him and that helps with the rules. I must admit that most were in place to make sure he didnt get too big of a head but I know that I can trust him and when you get to the point were you know your partner wouldnt put your life or body at risk you will lax on the rules too. Hope this helps!!

kbarker1

08-27-2009, 10:25 AM

Well, this is my first post on this forum, as I just found it, and have only been poly in the past year. You're asking about rules... "I just wondered if any of you have similar rules, but have amended them when they were put into practice? Or have any opinions on the rules we outlined? I would like to learn :-)..."
Yes we have rules... the way it was when we started, was I was only allowed to kiss other women, nothing else. As we grew more comfortable with everything, it grew to sex with women, as long as it was in our house and protected, then it was sex with women outside of the house as long as it was stable, and my husband has recently suggested that I find a stable girlfriend.
I have one ex girlfriend now, and as of last night, I have a new girlfriend. We have rules within our poly... my husband requires a few nights at home a week, and for me to not leave him for my girlfriend (which I never would.) My girlfriend has a young daughter who is easily confused, and is in the military, so we do not show affection in public. Aside from that, everything flows by how we all feel. My husband is straight, so has no boyfriends, and he does not get involved with my girlfriend either (as she is a lesbian). I'm sure that throughout our lives, mine and my husband's rules will change, and we may end up monogamous at some point, but for now we are enjoying our poly lifestyle.

River

08-27-2009, 03:05 PM

Most everything flows out of the agreement Kevin & I have to be honest and transparent with one another. It's more of an agreement that a "rule," per se. We trust each other enough that we don't feel the need to lay down rules for our relationship or for each other.

We really like being together, so neither of us fears that there won't be enough time together if either of us ends up having another love. Probably, if or when either of us has another love, we'll include the other/s in our lives in such a way that we'll spend a lot of time together as a group -- whether or not all of us are "romantically" involved with each other. So our routine frequent hikes in the mountains, camping trips, etc., wouldn't be dramatically altered -- we'd just have another (or two) to share these activities with ... along with meals, maybe a bed....

Sure, if either of us -- or both -- were to have another love, we'd spend some one-on-one time with him or her or them. That goes without saying, but there's no fear or doubt about the love we have for one another (or none rising beyond barely perceptible, and laughable), but there'd be no need to make rules to insure that we spend time with each other. We like being together so much that the thought of one of us neglecting the other in terms of time shared is preposterous. But he and I are also generally quite comfortable being alone, or out and about on our own, so there's none of the clingy-needy stuff between us. We need each other, sure, but not in a needy-clingy sort of way.

Neither of us are "dating" others now, nor avoiding it. But it could happen at any time, and I do think I'd like to look into "fluid bonding" as a method of protecting our health. We'd not make a "rule" out of it, but would, rather, come to some sort of agreement. Rules are for the distrustful. I've had shattered trust in a supposedly "love" relationship before, and it took a lot of years to find myself where I'm at now. Trusting my partner as I do. We need no rules, and want none. But we can arive at agreements. The difference may seem very subtle, if even perceptible to some. But it's the Grand Canyon between these two for me.

Edit:

Rules are borne of a failure to share or enter into agreement. They are based on a lack of trust and a fear that the other would harm you or allow you to be harmed where preventable--or a fear that one is unloved. Rules are like training wheels, at best, and are like manacles or prison walls at worst. Where there is agreement, "escape" is not sought or desired, so manacles or prison walls are unnecessary.

MonoVCPHG

08-27-2009, 04:36 PM

I must admit my "rules" are extremely simple and yet I am often embarassed by them because they may appear small minded or selfish. I need polyfidelity in my relationship with Redpepper in regards to other men. I feel healthy and happy with the men in her life now and healthy in moving forward towards a bright future.

Nobody knows what the future holds or how we as individuals may grow or change but the person I am now needs this. If things change for either of us down the road then we will explore that to see where our path leads.

Regardless, we will both do what is healthy for us as individuals and strive to stay healthy as a couple but our friendship is the most important aspect for me....not being a part of her life is unacceptable to me.

As far as the word "rule" goes; me and most people I know in the poly world disagree LOL! I have no issue with black and white boundaries or accepting that there is a clear cost to breaking them. Modern societies are governed by rules...but unlike in society it's nice that within our relationships we can come to agreements on what those rules should look like.

To me there are more boundaries in a relationship than actual rules. Boundaries can be pushed and explored for modification, reshaped and redefined. Rules are broken.

River

08-27-2009, 04:55 PM

Mono,

By distinguishing between "rules" and "agreements" as I have done above, I meant to highlight the difference between those relationships where there is profound trust and those relationships fraught with anxiety and fear that the other will harm or disrespect us. Kevin & I have so much trust and respect and kindness and warmth toward one another that I don't feel like I want to have "rules" in place meant to protect me from hurt or harm which may result from his actions/non-actions. And I believe he basically feels just as I do in this regard.

We have absolutely no rules as to who one or the other can interact with and how they may interact with them -- because such rules would be utterly superfluous. Why superfluous? Because we trust one another and our love for one another enough that we see no need to tether one another by such rules. Kevin's just not going to be loving me any less if he meets someone else and falls in love with him/her. He's not going to abandon me in the sense of not spending plenty of quality time with me. I have nothing to fear! Try as I might, I can't think of a scenario in which Kevin would abuse the trust I have in him -- so I don't see any need to restrict him with "rules".

We have agreements, but our agreements are nothing like rules. We agree, for example, that it is unloving for myself or himself to have unprotected sex with someone who we don't know to be free of STDs/HIV.... Likewise, we agree that it is unloving to involve ourselves in relationships with people who may mistreat, exploit, or abuse us. I don't need to give my okay to the friends or lovers he may choose because i fundamentally trust him, and our basic agreement: to love one another. That's the agreement that all else flow from, including our agreement that such agreements are superior to rule-making, and including our agreement that the trust of the sort we have toward one another is the springhead of the liberty we honor in one another. And I say "honor" because I cannot be the bestower of this liberty. I can only recognize it as the truth of who and what we are. If I wanted to constrain that liberty in any way, I'd have to take three good long steps back and examine what I'm fearful of. Such fear indicates a problem ..., but I have no such problem. We are happy and free. Loving and loved.

===

Edit: Wow, writing these recent posts makes me realize how very fortunate I am. I once had a terrible experience of violation/betrayal of my trust -- with the man who was my first true love. I lived broken in so many ways for so many years after that betrayal. The path to where I am, and where we are, has been a long one, and it's very interesting to see that we've arrived where we are and how fortunate we are. I wasn't quite as aware of the situation until I spoke it from my heart here.

MonoVCPHG

08-27-2009, 05:06 PM

We are happy and free. Loving and loved.

I totally get that point JRM and am very happy for you. You just achieve it in a different way than I do and that is the beauty of diversity :D

I sincerely was not debating our views of boundaries and rules within relationships. Sorry if that is how I came across.

MonoVCPHG

08-27-2009, 05:09 PM

Because we trust one another and our love for one another enough that we see no need to tether one another by such rules.

For the record..trust has nothing to do with my need for polyfidelity. That could be an entire thread that I simply don't have the energy to fully explore right now LOL!!

River

08-27-2009, 05:18 PM

Mono,

I have great respect for polyfidelity. And even monogamy -- where there is love. Any style of loving which is true loving is a good thing.

Did I say that rules were like "training wheels"? Well, there's nothing wrong with training wheels -- I learned to ride a bicycle with them as a kid. Rules can be a fine thing. I just don't need any, and neither does my partner. We are soaring. Our bicycle flies! We've got wings attached.

Now we have to practice taking the contraption under water! Ooooh! Spooky! Always new learning to explore!

MonoVCPHG

08-27-2009, 05:25 PM

Now we have to practice taking the contraption under water! Ooooh! Spooky! Always new learning to explore!

Just keep us updated on your discoveries:)

redsirenn

08-27-2009, 08:53 PM

ummm yes... JR... and please upload pictures of that. :)

As for the topic of this thread...

I see the distinction between rules and agreements, and this is definitely something I strive to do... ESPECIALLY in relationships. Ever heard of "rules are meant to be broken"? Seems like that stems from the participants not "agreeing" to them in the first place.

And - for sure agreements can change over time, being open to that and actually forming new agreements is what makes boundaries heard, understood, and kept.

Sounds healthy to me!

So, from what I have read over the past several months there are no rules for what the agreements should look like. Whatever works for you, works for you!

redpepper

08-27-2009, 11:26 PM

I have rules for myself. I call them such, because I like the idea of breaking the rules, and have been known to break mine. Somehow, the fact that they are my rules and I break them makes me feel like an anarchist.... hehee... does that make sense... really they are boundaries and agreements with myself because they are fluid and changeable. That would be a more suitable description.

When Mono and I first came on this forum back in April we were BIG into what was acceptable and what wasn't. What he needed to feel safe in our relationship and what I was willing to let go of and agree to around the lifestyle he came into.

At the time my rules were: (and I think I am repeating myself as I have said these before, but whatever..... :p)
1. My husband has to know that where my dates are and when, in case something happens.
2. two coffee dates and then they have to meet my husband.
3. Provided they are approved we can move on to a dinner date or a more serious dating situation with a possible smooch at the end.
4. Sex can come after everyone is comfortable and ready
5. that was as far as I got...

Of course with Mono I broke all the rules!
I met him for coffee, called him that night, talked on the phone for a long time (for me) then emailed, called, texted, the whole next day and the days after for about four days.... by the weekend we were very close and I went over there after a date with my husband and our other that we share. The two of them were getting it on and I just wanted Mono, so I left and drove to his house.... I don't think he had met my husband yet even! I got in big trouble from my husband and came home again. They met shortly after and the rest is history.

My husband has always been very willing to trust me entirely and let me go... possibly to my detriment as I have taken advantage of that in the past and am not proud of it... he always has known what was happening but it effected him and we didn't have enough discussion around it...

Now Mono and him have agreements with me that I find far more contained. Much like the sense of commitment you feel when you get married. One thinks that it would be confining, but it is actually freeing! It keeps me in check and makes me feel loved.

I love that we can make our own and not go by societal norms unless they fit.

XYZ123

08-28-2009, 04:02 AM

Let's see...our rules are agreed upon. They are also flexible.

I am the more poly of myself and my husband. We have agreed that, because I am bisexual, I am allowed to date other women, but no men. Sex with another woman is allowed only after he has approved of her and she and I have established a true loving relationship. These things work for me since I don't desire other men, wouldn't want to be with someone my husband was uncomfortable with, and don't enjoy loveless sex.

Beyond that, the woman (and only one woman) has to want to be involved with our family. My husband and children are very important to me and I wouldn't want anyone who didn't respect that and want to build a relationship with them as by being poly I want to add to my family and not take away. This doesn't mean an intimate relationship with my husband. He won't be nor do I really want him sexually involved with my gf. But a friendship should be there. The gf is free to have another relationship if she chooses, but there has to be some form of polyfidelity. In other words, no casual sex from either of us or her and her other.

Beyond that, full honesty and full disclosure. Hubby and I are primary, at least in the beginning stages as we do have children to think about.

However, with my last gf, we were ready to change the rules. We would have moved on to a full triad if she had been willing. The rules are there for guidelines and taking first steps for everyone's comfort and safety. The good thing about them is that they can be amended to fit the individual situation at any time by discussion and agreement.

Ricavaler

08-28-2009, 07:39 AM

We have always conducted our relationship very freely.
We have only one 'rule', which applies to poly, open marriage, swinging all.

"Do what/who ever you want, just tell me"
If either of us meets someone and has a spontaneous fling, telling the other after the fact is also acceptable.

MonoVCPHG

08-28-2009, 02:41 PM

Let's see...our rules are agreed upon. They are also flexible.

The good thing about them is that they can be amended to fit the individual situation at any time by discussion and agreement.

I must admit, the clarity in your boundaries for your poly relationship is impressive! I have to ask - is your husband poly or mono wired? He sounds like me in a lot of ways and I don't consider being in a poly relationship as making me even remotely poly. Just curious.

XYZ123

08-28-2009, 03:06 PM

Thank you Mono!

My husband actually considers himself poly, as he is capable of deep loving relationships with more than one person. My gf was actually his ex from years before and also his best friend. He spent years trying to set us up because he loved us both so much and he felt we'd be perfect for eachother.

However, he doesn't feel a need to engage sexually with my other (should I ever have an other again) to be in a poly relationship. He is straight and so I fulfill all of his sexual desire in that way. It's the same reason why we've agreed that I will not engage in physical relationships with men and can only have one relationship with a woman at any given time. If he were bisexual I'd be fine with him having a physical relationship with a man without my involvement as I cannot be a man. We seem different than most here in that the loving commitment comes naturally and without jealousy but the sexual aspect is tricky. It could be due to the sexual abuse I have suffered and his ex gf (different ex) who made a point to jump everyone who wanted her behind his back, leading to some serious health concerns. I don't know.

As I said, the rules are flexible. Had P stuck around maybe we'd be a triad now in every way and house hunting. She WAS perfect. Until she wasn't. One never knows if lightning will strike twice.

MonoVCPHG

08-28-2009, 03:52 PM

the sexual aspect is tricky. .

I totally get that LOL! It seems the farther I move away from my old vanilla social background and towards a sex positive environment the more closed off I am in my ability to enjoy things I used to. Not physical sex but the whole area of sexuality and eroticism. It's like my newly discovered relationship with my own sexuality can't handle what is all around me and is going into hiding. I get bothered by the strangest stuff now. I'm super sensitive but am learning to have fun with it :)

Sorry for the tangent..

AutumnalTone

08-28-2009, 05:55 PM

It's like my newly discovered relationship with my own sexuality can't handle what is all around me and is going into hiding. I get bothered by the strangest stuff now. I'm super sensitive but am learning to have fun with it :)

A whole new voyage of self-discovery, eh? It's interesting what else crops up when we begin communicating with others in a different fashion and build our relationships in a new fashion. Even somebody as mono as you, when dealing with a poly relationship approach, it appears lots of other self-realization and development follows. Way cool!

And the use of humor in dealing with it speaks well of you.

XYZ123

08-29-2009, 01:38 AM

MonoVCPHG

08-29-2009, 07:30 AM

This thread, along with attending our monthly poly meeting, got me to thinking about my requirements to be healthy in my relationship and in the agreed upon boundaries Redpepper and I have.

I was explaining polyfidelity to one of the group members and the look I got in return made me pause and reflect. It wasn't disapproval or judgement but it was genuine disbelief I think. It had a lot to do with my total compersion for what Redpepper and her husband when I can't even fathom the idea of another man coming into her life above the depth of a close friend...i.e sexual intimacy of many forms.

I had a chat with her about how I felt things were maturing in our group as well as in other areas socially where she is finding community that she so badly wants. I told her I was feeling selfish and that my requirements were unfair to her in light of her just finding all of these interesting, open minded and poly friends.

I was not saying anything had changed for me as far as how much I loved her and in wanting to continue building our future. Nor am I any more able to or even want to alter my boundaries. I wanted her to know that regardless of what happens to us, I will always love her and be a part of her life in as positive a way as I can be forever. It kind of felt like giving her the option to be set free for lack of a better description and letting her know there could never be anything other than love in my heart for her.

If things were to change for us we will find a way to be in each others lives...we both feel it is meant to be no other way.

I asked her to always be true to herself and she re-affirmed that she has what she wants and is fulfilled. Neither of us can look way into the future and see what will transpire. We will continue to work towards or goals and see where the journey takes us.

I guess the purpose of this comment is simply a reminder to check in with your boundaries even if it may change things or they seem to be working fine. Being true to each other and ourselves is the first priority in building a long and happy life with those you love...In my humble opinion
:D

Ceoli

08-29-2009, 03:36 PM

Honestly, I make it a point not to get involved with partners who have a lot of rules in their primary relationships. Generally, when I become involved with a partner or couple as a secondary relationship to an already existing primary relationship that has a lot of rules in place, I find various situations can come into play:

1) The person or couple is using me to enhance their own relationship with each other. No thanks. I'm not an accessory. I'm a person with needs.

2) The couple is insecure in their relationship which means that I have to constantly worry about inadvertantly hitting boundaries that create tension between all of us. Again, no thanks. I don't enjoy relationships where I have to walk on eggshells.

3) My relationship with that person does not have the ability to develop along it's own natural path because of restrictions placed upon it by other partners.

I understand the need for some couples to put these rules in place, but since it would restrict my freedom within the relationship as a third, it wouldn't be an appealing situation for me.

I honestly prefer to let love develop on it's own and let it grow along the path that's right for that relationship, and I would never want to place any restrictions on how my partners love (aside from safe sex practices for everyone involved). And also, when I'm involved with a couple, I've always found that the more secure they are in their relationship with each other, the more secure I am in my relationship with them.

redpepper

08-29-2009, 05:49 PM

Honestly, I make it a point not to get involved with partners who have a lot of rules in their primary relationships.

I would agree with you Ceoli if it were an established poly couple. When my husband and I were starting out we made rules to protect our relationship and ourselves. I would think if I were looking again that would be very different now that we have experienced ourselves within poly. I have different rules for my husband than I did before and I am far more relaxed now that I know what we are capable of and I know he isn't going to leave me.

Ceoli

08-29-2009, 06:19 PM

I would agree with you Ceoli if it were an established poly couple. When my husband and I were starting out we made rules to protect our relationship and ourselves. I would think if I were looking again that would be very different now that we have experienced ourselves within poly. I have different rules for my husband than I did before and I am far more relaxed now that I know what we are capable of and I know he isn't going to leave me.

I'm not saying that it's wrong to have rules or anything like that. I'm just saying that I don't want to be involved in such a situation because it would probably end up being a very unfair situation for me as the person outside of the couple (whether I'm dating one or both of them). I would rather not bear the brunt of the issues that they're trying to work out. When entering a relationship, I don't want to be the tool a couple uses to work out the issues of their poly explorations.

Fortunately, I don't have to because I choose not to be involved in such situations.

I also think it isn't always about being established in poly for the couple, but it is always about being established as a couple. The couple that I'm dating now is very new to poly, but because of the security in their relationship, it creates an open and secure situation for me.

XYZ123

08-29-2009, 07:13 PM

Hmmm. I think a great many of our rules are made to protect our children. When we started dating we were both in other relationships and there really weren't any rules other than complete honesty. Now we have to have them when considering any others, at least until the new relationship is secure. Think of it more as our kids are primary and we have to make rules for our relationships to be sure they aren't hurt or neglected by the other relationships or our reactions to them. There are some issues regarding our own insecurities when NRE comes into play, of course. But we'd never make rules to bind or use another person as a means to enhance our relationship, though I'd hope she would. We are quite secure, ever after the first other relationship didn't work out. Otherwise we would never consider poly again. Also, we are simply not looking, not hunting, not concerned with when or if a new relationship happens. We are just open to it. So we wouldn't expect anyone to wish for a relationship with us that didn't already understand and feel comfortable with our rules. And we wouldn't push, nor disrespect any rules she might have for herself.

redpepper

08-30-2009, 05:21 PM

I'm not saying that it's wrong to have rules or anything like that. I'm just saying that I don't want to be involved in such a situation because it would probably end up being a very unfair situation for me as the person outside of the couple (whether I'm dating one or both of them). I would rather not bear the brunt of the issues that they're trying to work out. When entering a relationship, I don't want to be the tool a couple uses to work out the issues of their poly explorations.

Fortunately, I don't have to because I choose not to be involved in such situations.

I also think it isn't always about being established in poly for the couple, but it is always about being established as a couple. The couple that I'm dating now is very new to poly, but because of the security in their relationship, it creates an open and secure situation for me.

Well, if one is with an established couple wouldn't they have their own rules within their couple about finding someone ...? and then change them once they know what rules you have..... I hate this word "rules"... boundaries, expectations, considerations, these words seem more suited somehow.

I too would be very skeptical about coming into a relationship that is going to dictate where I fit into it. It sounds like you have experiences that have left you resentful about this. I am feeling resentful about this because my husband and I work very hard at making sure we are okay and that our relationship with Mono is okay. I know we call it a "V" but in terms of our commitment to each other we are a triad. Sure there is no intimacy between my men in the touching sense, but our "V" works because we all have rules together now.... this has changed with time and continues to mature and establish itself. In the beginning my husband and I needed our own rules to protect ourselves from people wanting to be with us that didn't work. We exercised these rules recently actually as a male friend of ours wanted to start a relationship with us. If we hadn't of had some rules around how to approach this we would be in a different place now.

I agree entirely with you Ceoli, but I want to be sure anyone reading this realizes the importance of having couple rules/goals (poly established or not) that change and grow when they meet another that works for them in a triad. That's all. It's not all about the third coming in and what they want, but about all three.

redpepper

08-30-2009, 05:38 PM

Just talked to Mono and he seems to think you mean that you don't want to be dictated to as far as being able to see other people and do things that you want to do. If that is the case then I have no beef with what you say, no one should ever tell anyone what to do and have the expectation that they will do it.

I am referring to someone coming into a relationship that is already established and the couple thinking that they should have no rules in order to be appealing and keep the person coming in.... that isn't safe for the couple as it asks for a large amount of trust. I would certainly be very wary of someone who wants to dictate to me in that way... well, it just wouldn't be feasible and wouldn't happen.

Ceoli

08-30-2009, 11:08 PM

Ok, let's see if I can be clearer. First, I'm not particularly resentful about any of my experiences. I've learned from both the good and the bad and all of them help teach me how to build healthy relationships. And there is still much to learn, as I hope there will be for all of my life. I was talking about what some of my and my friends' experiences have been when rules hinder the building healthy relationships. Yes, I've been burned by couples who have been too insecure to understand how to treat me, but I took the lessons from that and took my own responsibility in letting it happen. The good thing is that experiences like that help me to feel even more secure about choosing who I get involved with.

Second, I agree that the word "rules" isn't always a fair description. However, there are times when it's a pretty accurate description. I think it's pretty important for any relationship to be built on agreements about how they are going to be treating each other. I like having clear agreements for how I would like my partner to treat me and vice versa, but I can't see setting out an agreement for how my partner is going to treat other people. It's not an agreement if the other person isn't even there yet to participate in the making of it. Especially if the goal of those agreements is to restrict the ability of my partner to love someone other than me. I cannot put rules on how my feelings develop, so how can I expect rules to control how my partner's feelings develop?
So it's not fair for me to set rules for how my partner should feel about other people. If those feelings start changing how my partner is fundamentally treating me, then of course there's an issue. But I don't see things like my partner spending a night with another lover as something that changes how he or she loves me.

I do agree that agreements and boundaries are good. I also think we agree that constant checking in around those boundaries is important for all involved. However, when rules are set out between the primary partners and only change in relationship to that and for the security of that partnership without consideration to the newer partnership (whether it's a satellite partnership or a triad or whatever) there's a much larger problem in play.

I'm just saying that I don't want to get involved with anyone who has preset rules about how how he or she is going to treat me and those rules being there for the sake of another person. To me, that means the agreement they have between each other isn't strong enough for me to feel secure in my relationship with one or both of them. This doesn't mean that I expect "carte blanch" or that I can come lording in with all my demands and needs and expect everything to be able to change to fit me. I have complete respect for agreements that exist between primaries and have no desire to force anything on that. However, I want to be able to build my own agreements without having preset rules forced on me too. So far, my experience has taught me that the more specific the rules are about how I'm going to be treated, the less strong the agreements are between the primary relationships I'm involved with or attached to.

redpepper

08-31-2009, 05:29 AM

Wow, we have milked this topic haven't we Ceoli! Thanks for all that :)
I guess in the end it's all just what works for individuals and couples alike.... :D

marksbabygirl

09-02-2010, 07:41 PM

I'm actually pretty sexually liberal. So long as no one is being used, abused, or hurt, it's fine with me what goes on behind closed doors. It's only myself and lover(s) I feel I have any right to have opinions and comfort zones regarding.

But what if they WANT to be used, abused or hurt??? :D

Ok, tangent - but I'm really glad to have found these threads on rules, boundaries and prescriptive... something or anothers... its been very helpful (and extremely unproductive for my work day!!)

AutumnalTone

09-02-2010, 08:28 PM

But what if they WANT to be used, abused or hurt??? :D

Well, see, then I have to go to all the trouble of arranging a good alibi and that takes a lot of effort...the pay had better be good!

whatamIdoing

12-02-2010, 01:40 PM

I know this is an older thread but I'd love to resurrect it...

Struggling now with rules vs boundaries... can't quite figure out the difference...

Hubby and I have our rules.... but they've morphed over the 8 yr relationship (married 6) for example when we started out swinging there was NO KISSING... that's changed...

and while never mentioned until recently we both knew that no one was in OUR bed without both of us being present...

now all our boundaries are being bent and challenged... our rules are needing to be written at least verbally.... and i continue to struggle...

Derbylicious

12-02-2010, 08:10 PM

Thinking about how rules change I've come to realize that it's better to have positive "rules" for the relationship(s) that you're in (for example we will spend x amount of time with each other per week) rather than setting rules out for other relationships that a partner is engaged in (for example no doggy style sex with anyone else). It's always better to work on a relationship that you're a part of rather than trying to control what happens in other relationships.

Not too long ago we had all kinds of rules in place and one day I came to realize that all I really need is to be kept in the loop. What that means is something that is still being defined. Sometimes I don't know that there was something that I wanted to know until it comes up in casual conversation at some point. It's a learning process.

I think that we are allowed to have criteria for ourselves about what we will and won't tolerate a partner of ours doing in a relationship. I think that if you have a partner that wishes to do something that goes against your criteria that it is your responsibility to end things and move on if it's something that you really can't handle. We all have those deal breakers and it's best to be honest about what those are up front so that everyone is on the same page.

redpepper

12-02-2010, 09:03 PM

I wrote about this all on another thread recently and on my blog as well. I wrote about the difference between rules, boundaries and compromise. Might help.

whatamIdoing

12-02-2010, 09:50 PM

I wrote about this all on another thread recently and on my blog as well. I wrote about the difference between rules, boundaries and compromise. Might help.

redpepper... I read it. TWICE. I will read it again... it still leaves me confused... not your fault... it is my limitations.

lately my head swims....

FlameKat

12-02-2010, 10:25 PM

WhatamIdoing - don't force yourself to understand - let it seep into your concsiousness... (in other words - sleep on it) let it come to you - understanding intellectually and emotionally are two different things - you might need to understand emotionally before intellectually or vice versa...

myself its a combination of the two - I find that understanding glimmers and gleams and I can't for the life of me 'get it'... until I have a moment that defines it in my heart... weird but that's me :P

either way - stressing about it won't help with the understanding...give yourself a break, it will come... and we are all here for hugs and support until it does (and after it does too :P)

redpepper

12-02-2010, 10:28 PM

redpepper... I read it. TWICE. I will read it again... it still leaves me confused... not your fault... it is my limitations.

lately my head swims....
Really? Please ask questions. Its no work of art and is what works for me so what makes sense to me might not make sense to others. I love the challenge of trying to explain, so... Please; ask. If you do so here, please copy and paste the post here for others to know what we are talking about. Thanks :)

SNeacail

12-02-2010, 11:01 PM

Struggling now with rules vs boundaries... can't quite figure out the difference...

This is the way I have always read it:
Rules = Absolutes, never going to change (ie. no un-safe sex, no cheating, no lies, etc)

Boundries = Limitations based on each partners insecurities or fears and are subject to change and re-evaluation (ie. no overnights if the kids are home, no sex with OP in "our" bed, don't let my friends see you, don't tell me the details afterwards, etc.)

whatamIdoing

12-02-2010, 11:20 PM

Really? Please ask questions. Its no work of art and is what works for me so what makes sense to me might not make sense to others. I love the challenge of trying to explain, so... Please; ask. If you do so here, please copy and paste the post here for others to know what we are talking about. Thanks :)

Ok let me try.

I can say that I have rules the problem is that WE (hubby and I) made them a while ago but that we've changed them so since we d manage to change them I guess they are boundaries based on your definition.

for example

we HAD a rule early on of NO KISSING.
that changed to NO DEEP kissing
that changed yet again and now kissing is allowed

but NO fluid bonding at swing parties is a hard and fast rule.... but when we swing with our friends (we are more poly than swing with these folks as they are our family).... we lift the no fluid bonding rule....

so I guess our rules are really boundaries based on your definition.

the thing is I see compromise as everyone gives a little; some more than others...

I guess what I'm having a hard time with is rules vs boundaries.

I get compromise... DH is doing a lot of that right now and I'm very grateful to him....

we never had to compromise much when swinging... and we had RULES... now it appears that when both of us have the same boundary it's a rule.

for example our hard and fast rules apply to us as a couple....

no one in the marital bed without both partners
no lying
no cheating
no ongoing flirtations or dating without your partners knowledge and consent.

we are having everything as we know it tested now with the addition of J to our lives....

I am sure that the next big issue will come up with overnights...

redpepper

12-03-2010, 03:04 AM

now it appears that when both of us have the same boundary it's a rule.

for example our hard and fast rules apply to us as a couple....

no one in the marital bed without both partners
no lying
no cheating
no ongoing flirtations or dating without your partners knowledge and consent.

Good points. a rule for you is when you both have the same boundary. The thing is that those that you invite to be in your lives might not have the same "rules" and then what. The difference between poly and swinging is that it isn't couple centric. To all have the same rules would be really tricky. The only thing I can think of that might be a rule as far as you are describing is that everyone get tested every 6 months. Especially if you are fluid bonding and that everyone use safe sex practices if you are taking a new lover. What that means should be discussed also I would think.

No lying, cheating and dating without knowledge to all are good poly ethics and the foundation of relationships to me (respect, honest communication, integrity and empathy), rather than boundaries or rules.

for reference sake:

Compromise to me is what we do before a boundary is agreed upon. It's the space between something coming up and getting to the point of comfortably sitting in an established relationship dynamic. It's the space where everything stops and no one moves forward until there is communication. It isn't comfortable for one or the other, but isn't meant to be... what the goal is that discussion/communication will happen until there is a balance of semi-comfort for both parties (or more) so that there can be movement forward in a relationship.

Boundaries for me are what is established at the end of negotiation of compromise. It's the end result that is known to be fluid but that I can sit in and try out for a while, knowing that my partner is somewhat comfortable and willing to see if something works. Quite often the new boundary is like a young seedling that needs nurturing together in order to grow into a strong tree that everyone is comfortable with and needs no more discussion about. When negotiations and communication has occurred to the point of a boundary being set, I know that my partner (s) feel comfortable in the knowledge that they have been heard, respected, considered and cared for. I should come out of the discussion feeling the same way and if I don't or they don't, then there is still a compromise going on and I still need to encourage talking... sometimes a break is needed before jumping in again as it is quite exhausting.

Rules are ultimatums and completely off the table for me. I have never done well in a relationship where their are rules, unless I am setting them, in terms of BDSM otherwise they have no place in my relationships. I will not be with someone who attempts to set rules, unless they are willing to turn to communication and negotiation that would bring us to compromising with the future goal of setting boundaries that work for the us. If they are unwilling then I will not stay with them. Simple as that. My life is my own and they will not be a part of it.

whatamIdoing

12-03-2010, 02:40 PM

I think what I'm still struggling with is the concept that other people have that much impact on our couple rules. I know that sounds horrible and unfair but I think that's where I am and honesty is a big part of me... so I have to be honest here... I never considered how other people would be able to impact on our rules and boundaries for THEIR comfort level... so complex here...

redpepper

12-03-2010, 03:38 PM

whatamIdoing

12-03-2010, 04:06 PM

Well, there is much more merging in poly than swinging (I started a thread on merging once, I wonder if that would help). The emotional component is a much larger and important component than sex. The depth and connection is perhaps more as a result, I don't know. Swinging doesn't involve love; in fact saying "I love you" is quite often a firm rule. In poly love comes first. Its not a friendship with sex on the side, its a romance, a love affair. Its partnership. Much different.

I think the thread on merging would be good I will go try to find it.

its the emotional component that's wrecking my husband. His stability and his comfort is sorely challenged at this point.

Again, what has led me here is that I have started to have feelings for J... feelings that I did not expect... feelings that I am not sure of what they are or where they are going.... and I don't know how to deal with that...

our rules are now having to change. we never had to have the "I love you" rule... we never had to have the "no overnights" rule... none of those things were ever issues...

everything is so UNSETTLED right now... and all I keep hearing is
"rules are made to be broken"

emotions are running high in all aspects of our lives right now...