And then there were three...(this is a stream of consciousness)

[Indigomontoya]

So I've finally got around to this blog. Can't help but be reminiscent of Doogie Howser M.D. with the journal entries...

I guess I am poly now. Which is odd, I don't feel poly, still have all the same relationship wants and needs as mono...or maybe I am mono with a poly partner...I don't know. If I want TP, then I guess I have to want poly...or I guess I have to be mono and tolerate poly.

Sometimes I don't know if I am cut out for it. I've struggled (and overcome) a lot of my own insecurities.. Used to be jealous...still kind of am at times, still clench my jaw when I think TP is spending too much time on her damn phone to Mr. A; but I sat and joked with the guy over fish and chips and bonded over geeky video games, south park quotes, and Doctor Who. So it can't be all bad right? and I am loath to not like the guy, TP loves him and she loves me, so her judgement isn't flawed (I'd like to think) and he has been nothing but accommodating.

As for my poly experience, I've got no problem attracting the ladies (everything sounds creepier if you say ladies after it)...why wasn't it this easy in high school? damnit. problem is keeping them...or keeping them and having them accept me as a poly option...I swear I am going to have more female friends than I know what to do with...because that's what's happening...women don't want to share, Learn to share well with others! it's kindergarten rules people! having a female friend you are attracted to is like having $19.95 in the bank and looking at your ATM card...I get angry about it a lot, not down on myself, just frustrated about it...I want poly, or maybe I want a Unicorn (a unicorn is just a horse with a plunger on it's head) or valley of the dolls...gotta get me a valley of the red bikini dolls...yeah...and the clock strikes 4:30..home time.

[Indigomontoya]

I used the words "ethical non-monogamy"
I think you just became my hero for creating that term.

That is such a great thread Mono. I really like the idea of using relatable terms to explain what Poly means, I think in the past I had tried to explain it and got bogged down as you said "by definitions" rather than explaining it in such a way that can be understood.

I had posted in the 'Coming Out' thread about dropping the 'P-Bomb' (TP's words) on women I am interested in.

I have tried all the advice from that thread: posted in my POF profile, not posting and saying right away, waiting until they have seen who I am as a person and then send them an email along the lines of "I really enjoyed our didn't want to mislead you..." and used the term "committed, non-manogamous relationship"

So I have tried multiple approaches; and received hate mail for posting in my profile and the results are I now have more female friends when telling them after establishing a good basis for a relationship (relationship in the broad sense of the word, friend or partner).

Predominantly the response has been a reluctance to 'share' me with TP. I can understand their point of view, but I feel I am not conveying the idea of a poly relationship well enough to be convincing.

I know this may not be the case all of the time but two of the women are definitely interested and are having issues coming to terms with sharing someone they are dating, both have said this outright (yes TP I took your advice and asked) and the others have asked things like "You have someone? is that not enough?"

I am wondering if anyone has stories, or advice in the phrasing and explaining what poly means, or what being with someone who is poly means.

I will develop a blog when I have time, but for now I am hijacking TP's blog

[TruckerPete]

maybe I want a Unicorn (a unicorn is just a horse with a plunger on it's head)

"That's not a unicorn - that's an ass with a plunger stuck on its head!"

[Indigomontoya]

So TP just left to spend time with her boyfriend. It was going above and beyond generous of me, since we had agreed on 2 nights a week out limit, and I gave her this third one; mainly because I was going out with an old friend from high school.

Well the old friend cancelled because she was too hung over still from a surprise kegger in honour of another friend from high school completing her masters. So I am left in a very quiet house with all the animals and my own meandering thoughts.

Tonight was a gray area in terms of it I had a date or not. Mainly because the friend found me on POF, and I had noticed her profile but not looked at it because what information was there wasn't comparable to her Facebook profile since she's on my fb too. Is my radar really that bad?

Anyway, TP and I were talking about it, and about another girl who gave me the 'I can't share' line but still seems interested. I had told her we had made plans to take our dogs to the dog park this week, to which TP replied "You move so fucking slow!" this outright pissed me off, because it's my pace and my life. I'm not a 'closer' even when I had never heard of Poly I was not a 'closer' I have fallen ass backwards into most of the relationships I've been in.

that brings me to the idea that maybe I think I am not cut out for Poly because I just don't feel like I can get someone else. That's kind of contradicted by the fact I currently speak with, having attracted them and most have gone to the not sharing phase (first initials) K, L, C, L, S, and A. So it's back to the presentation question...how do I do it and not drive women away?

on a tangent to end this, I am completely good with TP going out, didn't phase me in the least....so yay for progress.

[sage]

Hi
I think we're a bit similar to you guys. My partner Z is poly and I have been mono but have decided that in a long term relationship with a poly, it is going to be much more fun and easier to give poly a go myself.

He was getting very discouraged like you. Has a long distant OSO but wants a local one. Like you heaps of women, none of who want to share. All looking for one on one life partners.

Anyway, suddenly last week a poly popped up on his radar. And even better, a bi-sexual one, so yay for me too. We've text and chatted on line and all seems really good. Meeting up for lunch in a few hours.

So there you go, patience is a virtue, good things come to those who wait, hang in there.:)

[ImaginaryIllusion]

So there you go, patience is a virtue, good things come to those who wait, hang in there.:)

I'm going to echo this statement. It certainly can take a long while to find the right women. There's some that don't want to share, but don't mind stealing...and there's some that never want to be cheated on, but don't mind sharing as a mistress so long as the wife/SO is in the dark. And somehow poly and honest communication gets somehow painted as wierd or immoral. I don't get it either.

Eventually there will be those who are ok with it. And personally I found being very frank about the situation from the start saves a lot of time in finding out who's even up for the possibilities...and then I'll spend the time to see if we click.

But that's just me.

[sage]

yep, poor Z has had to find all this out too (imaginary illusion). One woman said to him that his talking about intimacy and love was "just creepy...best to have sex first and see what happens"

He did a big online profile about polyamory, what he wanted and us. It's taken him three weeks and this is a very sparsely populated area by world standards. His advice is that your best bet is bi-sexual women, they seem more open and often want to love a man and a woman at the same time.

Good Luck

[TruckerPete]

to which TP replied "You move so fucking slow!" this outright pissed me off, because it's my pace and my life.

Ah, I am still sorry for that one. It's your slower pace that allows you to put up with a fiancée who most closely resembles a squirrel, strung out on meth. You ground me, my love. :)

Can I rephrase it to "They move so fucking slow??" Don't they know what they're missing out on?? :confused:

on a tangent to end this, I am completely good with TP going out, didn't phase me in the least....so yay for progress.

*hug* Thank you. The extra time was greatly appreciated by both of us, and it's only better knowing you're not sitting at home feeling crappy.

[Indigomontoya]

So an odd little quirk ninjaed my brain this morning that I wasn't expecting...well not a quirk, and not a full on insecurity really...I don't know how to describe it. But TP has said many times over the past week/weekend that she's happier than she has been in long time. Now I will take full credit for my part in this, she has her's as well, but (keeping with the title), the third is Mr. A.

I guess I can handle the physical intimacy, just shower and I will 'remark my territory'. The emotional intimacy I am dealing with; she loves Mr. A, love is not a finite resource, and she has become quite good at not making me feel secondary, or unfairly treated. But the fact that she is getting happiness from someone other than me made my reptile brain do a turn. I guess I am just adjusting, but it goes back to feeling inadequate and therefore she needs a boyfriend to fill the void I leave wanting...I know this isn't the case, but hey my reptile brain doesn't know anything but Id and flight or fight...so my reptile brain is telling me something is wrong because I am not doing, saying, or being something that she needs...and that stabs into my own confidence and insecurity issues. It will resolve itself like the other two have, but just an odd little bit of insecurity as the reptile brain adjusts.

On a side note, I think I am getting a little callous with who I talk to online...Apparently a very attractive blond woman knows my name, and I have no two sweet clues who she is, where I know her from, or any idea where to begin looking to figure it out...I guess my throw shit against the wall method of contact early on has come back to bite me in the ass.

IM

[TruckerPete]

TP has said many times over the past week/weekend that she's happier than she has been in long time. Now I will take full credit for my part in this, she has her's as well, but (keeping with the title), the third is Mr. A.

Let's not forget the biggest, and probably main contributors to this feeling ... Diving for the past week (with you) and pushing through my social anxiety and going out (TWICE!!) with (NEW!!) people.

I was just talking with Ken last week about how he and I have such a hard time making new friends because we feel like we have to constantly filter ourselves. Clearly these new people in our lives can handle the whole Trucker Pete experience.

We bonded. I feel accepted. That second one is a strange feeling to be sure.

[jkelly]

the results are I now have more female friends when telling them after establishing a good basis for a relationship (relationship in the broad sense of the word, friend or partner).

Predominantly the response has been a reluctance to 'share' me with TP. I can understand their point of view, but I feel I am not conveying the idea of a poly relationship well enough to be convincing.

I imagine that you're right about that, but that you shouldn't concentrate on it as the thing to fix.

In general, people wind up in poly- relationships because they are either a) themselves committed to having poly- relationships, or b) because someone they really want to be with is. It's just going to be really challenging to talk someone into committing to a poly- relationship by selling polyamory. I think it's going to be a lot easier to be someone who seems like a really great person to date, and then make poly- look the way to get to do that.

I know this may not be the case all of the time but two of the women are definitely interested and are having issues coming to terms with sharing someone they are dating, both have said this outright (yes TP I took your advice and asked) and the others have asked things like "You have someone? is that not enough?"

I am wondering if anyone has stories, or advice in the phrasing and explaining what poly means, or what being with someone who is poly means.

Many people aren't going to find even the most brilliant and engaging description of polyamory in theory very compelling. Instead of working on how you can phrase things better, I think that modelling it well will be substantially more effective.

If you're mostly meeting people online, that may be impractical. But if you are developing friendships where there is some mutual interest, but they're not enthusiastic about being in a poly- relationship, invite them to spend time with you and TP, or you and TP and Mr. A (if that's possible and the dynamic is a good, um, advertisement for being poly-). I don't mean to trick them into dates; you should respect that they are only interested in friendship. But nourishing those friendships may lead them to being more open to polyamory personally in the future, or suggesting it to their other friends, if they see it being lived in a sane, rewarding way.

[TruckerPete]

Thank you, jkelly. I've been thinking some of those things, but they hadn't yet coheased.

invite them to spend time with you and TP, or you and TP and Mr. A (if that's possible and the dynamic is a good, um, advertisement for being poly-).

Very subtly put. :D

We're still working on getting comfy together. We're not doing all that bad. More a case of me watching my casual touches so as not to cause a jealousy flare.

When we had dinner together the other week, I was actually relaxed ... But I'm not sure an "outsider" would appreciate the work it's taken to get this far and might pick up on the awkwardness we still have.

Then again, maybe it would be heartening for a mono girl to meet Mr. A and get his perspective on falling into a relationship with me!

Things to consider ...

[Indigomontoya]

Well it's funny how the brain works...and by funny I mean totally irrational and annoying...So Thursday night I start to feel like (for various reasons all of which were discussed at a later time) that I was secondary to Mr. A. It was absolutely ridiculous because even though I felt my time was being encroached upon, it really wasn't, just my perception was. I guess it felt like TP could move my time with her around and cut it back but not Mr. A's. Of course my Reptile Brain didn't rationally understand that she could do that because she spent so much time with me.

It was the stupidest thing that set it off too, she wasn't feeling well and..."It" Being my thought process...went upstairs to lie down, I went to check on her....She was wearing Mr. A's sweater bored from a particularly cold night out...my stupid reptile brain went into overdrive about her using his sweater, when in reality it was the closest at hand...so anyway Friday I told her how I was feeling and it blew up into a fight...which was resolved.

But I guess the point...if there is a point to any of my posts...is that how stupid it seems to me that her wearing a sweater from Mr.A can upset me, but I can have brunch on Saturday morning with him and TP, and then watch them say goodbye to each other (kiss and I love you's) and not be phased. What the hell is my brain on?

[Indigomontoya]

So I've not quite had the energy or drive to post recently. I am out of gas when it comes dealing with things... TP and I are having our own issues, as you can read in her blog. She's right that I can take poly or leave it, but I can't leave her. I can suffer through the jealousy, anxiety, and issues as long as I feel like I still have her...but I feel like I am slipping back these past weeks. Am I just lying to myself? am I a mono who is trying to fit into a poly shell?

I mean I get the concept of NRE in all it's phases, and I get that she and I have been together for a while and we lose that new joke laughter; but I feel like my efforts to push through my own issues, and put TPs happiness first are not getting the returns I had hoped for. I love that she is happy, and happy when she's with me sometimes, but she's always happy with Mr. A. Where does the scale balance that we (Mr. A and I) get equal shares of the positive/negative? how do I stop feeling like she is more happy with him than with me?

THere's issues surrounding sex too. I don't know what to do about those, neither does TP. TP can go and have great sex with Mr. A, relax and orgasm; but with me, she's so hung up on having to orgasm that it even puts her off sex with me all together. I've told her many many times that she doesn't need to feel guilty about it, and that she doesn't have to see sex as a pressure situation, but it doesn't help...and the wheel goes round and we're back to where we were again. She has said she feels it's a round peg, square hole issue, she's said a lot of things, a good many dig to my core.

The whole thing has made me doubt so much about myself, and that just feeds my own insecurities which in turn feeds TPs turn offs about lack of confidence I have in myself, my physical appearance, my job, everything...so it turns into a cyclical mess that sees no resolution, just a circle of pain. SO how do I stop the cycle? I want off this ride, I want back to being in a relationship with TP that is good and doesn't give me teeth grinding tension headaches. Oh we have our moments a lot of them, but there's this elephant in the room and he just keeps stamping his foot...go to hell elephant.

[TruckerPete]

The whole thing has made me doubt so much about myself, and that just feeds my own insecurities which in turn feeds TPs turn offs about lack of confidence I have in myself, my physical appearance, my job, everything...so it turns into a cyclical mess that sees no resolution, just a circle of pain. SO how do I stop the cycle? I want off this ride, I want back to being in a relationship with TP that is good and doesn't give me teeth grinding tension headaches. Oh we have our moments a lot of them, but there's this elephant in the room and he just keeps stamping his foot...go to hell elephant.

Just to clarify, my turn off is a lack of confidence, NOT Indigo's "physical appearance, job, everything" ...

It's more of a big white elephant that we've beat to death, going round and round in circles, not sure what to do about my ever-increasing anxiety surrounding sex, especially with Indigo. I've always had this anxiety, and my relationships go one of two ways: the anxiety gets better and our sex gets better, or the anxiety gets worse and therefore the sex gets worse.

This is now to a point now where I could go out with a stranger and have more physically satisfying sex with them because there is no past. It's unfortunate for Indigo and I that my relationship with Mr. A has gone in the opposite sexual direction due to the fact that he has even worse anxiety than me surrounding his orgasm. Mr. A and I have both worked really hard to start overcoming our individual issues together, but I can't seem to transfer any of that work into the bedroom with Indigo and I.

Indigo is very easy to please. Any position, any place, anything works for him. And this was fun before my issues started taking over. Really, I can barely think of a handful of times where he's had to say, "Nah, this isn't working for me right now, so let's stop." Now, his ease and enjoyment of sex simply causes me shame and embarrassment at my own inability to achieve with him. To be honest, there's a touch of resentment there, too.

And of course, none of these emotions (which I do own), are of any help whatsoever when it comes to cumming.


This problem is breaking my heart. We want to fix it, but are truly stuck.

[sage]

Really sad you guys. I feel for you both and I also thank you TP for posting otherwise I would have had to traipse over to your blog and read that. Time is always an issue for me.

Indigo I hope you get some help here but you could try hopping across to the yahoo poly/mono group. It is very different from this forum but there are some mono guys there that probably have something to offer you.

[sage]

Hi, I'm Zen, Sage's poly partner. I don't normally participate on these forums, but I feel for you guys (TP, IM, Mr A), so here are my thoughts.

Your posts talk a lot about the sex issue, but not of the intimacy and cuddles and love making.

My deep connection with my significant other has been a celibate one, for over 5 years. No sex, lots of intimacy, nudeness, skin on skin, tickles, cuddles, laughter and body warmth.

Set aside 4-5 hours and have a romantic sensual encounter, massage each other, pamper each other, and forget about the sex for a while.

You may find, as I have, that there is "potato chip sex (TM)" and "3 course lovemaking". I used to eat a lot of potato chips, and it satisfies an immediate need, but you cant beat a 3 course meal for being totally satisfied, giving you flashbacks with that warm sustaining feeling for days afterwards. Like all good things, it takes a lot more preparation for the 3 course meal.

Enjoy! Zen

[TruckerPete]

Thank you both ... We're working slowly, not letting this affect snuggle times and making sure we both know we love the other. Sex seems to be off the table for the next while, until I can get my anxiety under control. This is actually a huge relief, because we can still be physically intimate, without me worrying that I'm "expected" to carry through. (He's never, EVER put this demand on me before; it's just my anxiety.)

No news from us is good news. Unless it's good news, which would also be good news. We're reading and thinking on anything that is posted here, even if we don't comment.

Thank you.

[Indigomontoya]

Well it's news, and I guess good news...we've gone ahead and called off the destination wedding....not the marriage but two of the big stressors were planning the wedding and paying for the wedding. Not by any means were we were going to be extravagant but it would have drained our savings.

So I was offended and hurt at first when TP told me she wanted to put it off for a year, but after discussion (her father said we make a good team which is nice to hear) I am okay with it, since it's not the marriage but the WEDDING that is the stress; we have a house, car, 2 dogs, 4 cats, and parrot and various and sundry possessions together (Not the 40" TV! You gave that to me as a gift honey, it's mine!) she's not going anywhere...took some thinking on my part to realize that.

So with that stressor out of the way we are going to do a quick civil ceremony whenever TP gets her birth certificate and driver's licence back with her new passport. Oh we're still going to Cuba in Feb. but basically calling it a celebration of our marriage....TP won't change the resort to the one where all the University kids are on break at, so I am out of trying to get some University lovin'.

All in all I am okay with the change, means we can have a better standard of living now than be miserable saving for one day...and we're still getting married, just means that we are not burdening our loved ones with the expense either....good development, good communication...it means that with that stressor gone TP and I can focus on other issues without the money stress and wedding stress!

[SNeacail]

I applaude you. I firmly believe that too much money is spent on weddings, including my own. When everything was said and done, I immediately knew that a small family BBQ would have been more fun, not to mention a lot less money, but you can't tell a 22yr old girl anything, my dad tried.

[Mohegan]

Karma and I got married at a courthouse. The only thing I regret is that we didn't have a religious ceremony. I don't miss the dress or all the big to do. We had a small reception at a local restaraunt. Looking back, I'm glad we didn't spend the money on it. It's not about where you have it, it's that you're doing it. Don't stress over it, enjoy it. Celebrate your love, don't stress of details you won't remember in a few years.

[TruckerPete]

Karma and I got married at a courthouse. The only thing I regret is that we didn't have a religious ceremony. I don't miss the dress or all the big to do. We had a small reception at a local restaraunt. Looking back, I'm glad we didn't spend the money on it. It's not about where you have it, it's that you're doing it. Don't stress over it, enjoy it. Celebrate your love, don't stress of details you won't remember in a few years.
*blush*

[TruckerPete]

I applaude you. I firmly believe that too much money is spent on weddings, including my own. When everything was said and done, I immediately knew that a small family BBQ would have been more fun, not to mention a lot less money, but you can't tell a 22yr old girl anything, my dad tried.

Funny, my Dad has been telling us to elope for quite some time! :p

[Indigomontoya]

So as TP has attested we had a discussion revolving around redefining boundaries. I always wanted her ring on mainly as a mark to stave of cowboys; but I've realized after spending a lot of time with Mr. A that he's not one.

He's been considerate of my relationship with TP, my feelings regarding our time together and more. Frankly I like him as a friend too; we get along well. All that being said, I was more than happy to make his life a little easier by letting the ring come off IF/when TP meets Mr. A's family. I told him as much, and I know Mr. A still has a touch of the other man syndrome, so I am doing all I can to show him he's welcome in my home by me and by telling him outright. I've gone ahead and extended him more time with TP, even with it's me making all of us dinner.

I guess it just clicked on the weekend that she's not going anywhere she won't come back to me...that she loves me and will be with me. Some things still have to battle out of my reptile brain, but for the first time in several months I feel 100% like I can handle this. I can handle poly.

I could attribute it to good communication, putting some of my needs first...I mean not sacrificing my needs and pushing my boundaries too far too fast to try and please TP, which I had been doing...I'm a recovering cynic, so part of me still goes back to that to say that part of it is I have found someone who wants to be with me, add to the pseudonyms: LS, and is accepting of my life, all of it. LS and TP are talking online a little bit, I still sense LS is a little hesitant, but she talks it out....and her first reaction was one I've experienced before with a twist: she had trouble coming to grips with what she felt was the finite nature of our relationship; here's the twist she was upset about hurting me....in our talk she was upset that she was eventually going to end up leaving me....so we made a deal that she will eventually leave for her 'one' and I won't hold it against her.

So I'd like to think it's a combination of those things, but I am fortunate to have stuck this out because it's helped me to start to work through my jealousy and trust issues, insecurities, and my tendency to internalize my own feelings....I have always felt like the middle child syndrome was made for me (I'm a twin, but treated like the middle child) and always put my needs second; now I am making choices I want and I need and not just sacrificing a bit of myself for people I am with or family....and it feels good.

IM

[Tonberry]

I had a small wedding and it was great. While I don't think big and/or fancy weddings are necessarily bad, I think sometimes it's more about expectations that actual wants/needs. It's important to find what would work for you, regardless of how common it is and how other people would see it.

Because I've always though marriage should be like a lease, that is, you get it for, say, 3 or 5 years, and can renew it or not (it seems ridiculous to me that one partner saying "I want a divorce" wouldn't be enough for the divorce to be effective. You need everyone involve to want the relationship for it to even exist, in my opinion), I'm more the kind to want regular vow renewals with small ceremonies rather than one single big fancy thing.

And if a wedding becomes more stressful than something you look forward to, there is a problem!

Whatever happens in the end, I hope it will be what works best for you guys and will make you very happy.

[Indigomontoya]

So tonight I told a close friend about my poly relationship, honestly thinking that I had before and she would be accepting...the background being she 'had been bi' and had a child out of wedlock, and finally married her 5th fiancée...no judgments here, those are the facts....

that being said I told her, and using advice from Mono and others I used language that she might understand rather than explain a poly relationship. Didn't quite work out so well...The argument was quite hostile. She went off about the sanctity of marriage, and why bother getting married if you are just going to $&#* someone else. I did my best to explain that poly wasn't just about the physical..it didn't take...stubborn impudence...She had the gall to discuss the sanctity of marriage when her own husband had to trick her into spending time with his family...a dick move on his part, but what husband does that...and what does it say about their marriage (I didn't tell her all that part)

then she went off about kids and telling our hypothetical, as yet unborn but not unnamed kids kids about poly:

"Good luck explaining that to your children one day. Oh yes we're married...mommy just has a bf and that's ok." to which I replied "Yes. It's done. I've spent time on a forum (;)) reading about people married, with children and in relationships"

she went off again about that not *#&%ing up a child. I told her it would be no more traumatizing than a divorce, a loveless marriage, or an abusive home...still not through to her...and then she abruptly ended the conversation because it was 'pissing her off'...

now to her credit she ended it before she got worked up enough to pick a fight, because I generally don't like to pull punches and if I am going to have to deal with personal attacks I like to end it in a solid decimating volley of personal attacks rather than dole out jabs...just a personality flaw I guess....

This whole thing really pissed me off, not that she was reacting the way she was, but my expectations of her reactions had been different...I have taken the optimistic path (fighting the cynic in me) and said she will come around.

Ultimately I am looking at this whole thing as being a bit of a learning experience for TP and I. We've had many 'coming out' conversations, most positive, but I guess dealing with a negative conversation with a friendship that has been on the decline, and 'final nail in the coffin" as TP said, is good prep (no better words come to mind) in case of negative conversations in the future with more important people...I resisted the urge to be a champion of Poly...instead just tried to get the idea that I am happy with this across...I also resisted the urge to tell her to get off her high horse and smell the bullshit she's shovelling....

oh! and the best was her trying to explain to me that if I was in a poly relationship I couldn't live in Canada as it's Polygamy and adultery is illegal. I had to hold off cutting her down a notch, and just pointed out that polygamy is marrying multiple spouses and that adultery isn't illegal but won't do anyone any favours in a divorce...Is it adultery if we are both having it, know about the other's adultery and fully endorse it?....

IM

[SNeacail]

I admire your restaint and your positive attitude.

Adultery isn't even on divorce/seperation paperwork in California anymore.

[Indigomontoya]

I left out part of the argument where my friend called the concept of an open/poly relationship 'nonsensical selfishness' I had asked her to explain this...she really didn't other than to restate that a relationship where you can be married and be with someone else is selfish...I replied with "Expecting one person to settle for a life without all of their needs being met because I only want them to be with me is more selfish." her reply was "then why bother getting married at all?" I really really wanted to start in about monogamous marriages ending in infidelity etc. etc. etc. but restrained myself from standing on a soap box.

All in all, the argument actually helped crystallize my feelings on Poly. When I say that most conversations have been positive the number are about 10 or less conversations, maybe 3 negative. One of them, ironically was with a person in an open relationship (not poly, just open) and she had told me that I could not find an OSO or have her and others really believe I wanted a Poly relationship because I wasn't buying what I was trying to sell.

It was really true in the beginning, how could I convince people that Poly was a good thing for me if I didn't know it myself? That's really changed, and the argument this evening really helped me to codify my 'take' on poly, and my reasons for being in this with TP.

TP has said in her blog I could take it or leave it, and she's right, I could be a happy mono, but I could also be a happy poly. I choose poly because the pros outweigh the cons...I just never imagined I would be so strongly offended by someone challenging truths I didn't know I fully held before...so introverted growth all around then...

IM

[TruckerPete]

TP has said in her blog I could take it or leave it, and she's right, I could be a happy mono, but I could also be a happy poly. I choose poly because the pros outweigh the cons...I just never imagined I would be so strongly offended by someone challenging truths I didn't know I fully held before...so introverted growth all around then...

*swoon*:rolleyes:

[ImaginaryIllusion]

I just never imagined I would be so strongly offended by someone challenging truths I didn't know I fully held before...so introverted growth all around then...


Interesting how somethings we can shift mindsets without realizing it right away.

Good on you for sticking to your guns. I haven't told any of the friends that I expect to react in such a fashion...but I'm sure it'll happen one of these days.

[Indigomontoya]

So I've not posted in a while, mainly because I've been dealing with my own stresses and every time I've sat down to write I've found the words not coming...

But I've got to get it down quick while I feel the motivation. Ive not a lot to report Mr. A and TP are great, my friendship with Mr. A is growing and TP was right in her blog about the comfort level rising...one instance I recall is Mr. A leaving after our usual Thursday evening and gave TP a hug to my surprise I blurted out "oh just give the girl a kiss!" so apparently my comfort level comes up in spurts.

That being said it's one month to the day for the wedding. TP had said " who the he'll invites their boyfriend (Mr.A) to their wedding?" and frankly I want him there; he's important to her and a friend of mine and I would feel bad if he wasn't there since I know he's still battling the other man feelings, but I don't have friends that come over every week and I woudn't be as welcoming and giving (read TP's blog for a list of my self sacrifices) nor would I give up my Chicken Cheddar Ale Soup leftovers to just anyone...he's a bachelor hah he doesn't even own a kettle...or vegetables.

I came out to my oldest and closest friend, he was increibly accepting and honoured; he's in California and I'm in Ontario but as he said me coming out to him went a long way to reaffirming a trust and closeness between us. This is the guy that found out I was getting married and said 'when and where do I need to be?', even almost dipped into next year's vacation (he works for Google so he can do things like that). It was one of those moments that made my week.

The bookend, sort of, to that is that one of the women I had started chatting with...still trying POF but not too hard, it was stressing me out to be so intensely looking for an OSO and ruining my chances...so this women was told about TP and she took the 'not able to get over monogamy' route which was disappointing but the bookend....to this bookend...is that the other woman was told and totally accepting...we've not talked much but I like to think it will develop well; even though the other woman, LS gave up on me because she couldn't reconcile the nonmonogamy.

I've got a good feeling about how things are going, I don't need to force the OSO search as I've become comfortable with myself and just doing things in my own gait....TPs been good to let me proceed at my own pace, I'm always saying I play the long game and let things work at their own speed, and I've for the patience for that because the status quo is pretty all right.

[Indigomontoya]

Well I've had some revelations, some poly, some personal...I've been reticent to vocalize these mainly due to a lack of motivation to post and a decided lack of ability to put down these in any coherent way....so here goes...

TP's sense of serenity has benefited me in numerous ways....obviously she's not snapping or reacting angrily, but it's been great to see her happy. We've been less sexually intimate but physically we are closer than we've been in a while; we're making it work.

As for me and poly I came to a couple realizations; first I can take it or leave it...poly that is. Exclusive of wanting to be in a poly relationship, I guess to be comfortable and stop worrying about getting another relationship...I was forcing it, and I realize that I've fallen ass backwards into any relationship I've been in....dammit! Why did they let Michael Vick back in the NFL?? he's killing Indy's secondary! I guess I'm comfortable with myself and where I am is that right now I need to just stop worrying about trying to find an OSO and enjoy what I have because I can... If it happens it happens, if not I can deal...

I've come out to my closest friend and I've come out to a friend from high school and it went over well; I still don't think I am able to come out to my family but that will be with time I am sure. For now I just look casually for an OSO and enjoy the heightened physical intimacy...things are ok.

[MonoVCPHG]

Thanks for the update :) You're perspective and experience as you move towards your wedding and open up to people is unique my friend. Very happy for you both!

[eklctc]

I'm glad you were able to sort through that. I'm with you. Well, once I find a solid primary relationship, I believe I will be able to take or leave multipartners ... I hope.

Many positive vibes coming your way~~~~~

[TruckerPete]

I'm glad you were able to sort through that. I'm with you. Well, once I find a solid primary relationship, I believe I will be able to take or leave multipartners ... I hope.

Many positive vibes coming your way~~~~~

That seems (to me) to be an odd thing to say. Would you mind elaborating? :)

[eklctc]

@truckerpete- I don't mind at all but I'll send you a message since my response to your response really has nothing to do with Indigo's thread. :)

I hope everyone has a great day!

[Indigomontoya]

Well it finally happened...I'm someone's husband...:) It was an amazing evening...Mr. A was there, he didn't feel it would be appropriate to sit next to TP so he sat one person over...and I wouldn't have had it any other way...he means a lot to her, and he's a good friend..so to have him there even as a 'friend' of TP's was great....the man loves a wedding apparently.

I suppose it gave me a pang or two of guilt once I was able to think of it after the fact that it diminishes his role in her life and in mine because I'm worried about how my family will react...it seems trivial at times the distinction of it...I live my life how I choose...my family doesn't ask my gay brother what it's like to suck dick (pardon the crudeness) why should I worry they will think less of me for how I live my life (they don't think less of him, just a parallel to private lifestyles)...and sometimes it seems a mountain sized issue...and part of it is that I worry they will think less of my wife (still odd to say TP) for having a boyfriend when I don't have an OSO....like she's pushed me into this or she's some kind of slut, etc. all the usual societal mores objections...

I can't reconcile the two sides to come to a course of action or make it so that the guilt goes away. I suppose I need to let Mr. A know that he is a valued part of my life as much as TPs...gets her the hell out of my hair for a while some days ;) but I suppose I am getting used to the solitude of TP being out...I've not been looking on POF or elsewhere really at all recently for potentials for a month or more. Just have no interest in really trying...I would definitely not stop looking completely but rejections are exponentially worse each time...and it's the same story...women don't share well...

To end on a happy note, TP was feeling bad because I was going to have dinner with my best man tonight and she was going to see Mr. A...but my best man (who's up from California for the wedding) was spending time with family instead...can't fault him...love his family they are mum and dad set #2 and he's crashed at our place 2 nights in a row and spent a load of money on me and TP at my bachelor party...strippers are expensive at the strip club...but TP and I enjoyed it...So I've worked out a new way to let TP know I am good with things...I've decided to instead of saying "it's okay." to just let her know my needs are met...and then there's the good Mr. A, money's tight for him, so he's decided to 'Do nice things' for us instead of buying us a gift...which makes me feel good...why do new husbands spin their wedding rings on their fingers?...they are desperately trying to find the combination.....Take my wife please! etc etc etc

[nycindie]

You don't know me, but I have read many of your and TP's posts since coming to this forum and followed your story with curiosity and awe. Edit: And admiration.

Just wanted to say Congratulations on your happy day!

[eklctc]

Congrats, Indigo & TP! Unfortunately, the point you made about women not sharing well tends to be so true, many times, at the denial of most said women. smh...I'm sure you will eventually run across another special woman to expand your family with. Until then, I'm sure, you will continue to enjoy every moment you create in your journey. *hugs*

[Indigomontoya]

Am I coward?...I think I might be...I have been thinking about it for days now...really a little bit since the wedding, and my anger over making one of my guests (Mr. A) uncomfortable because he couldn't really tell how he knew us.

I've always been afraid of rejection, ALWAYS. It's kept me from acting...ask TP she had to ask me out after 2+ weeks of talking on msn before our first date because I was too afraid she would say no, or go out with me and then reject me...in High School, in University...I hesitate because I fear rejection...now that fear has manifested itself in a fear to tell my family about the whole shebang that is my Poly lifestyle. It's a total fear of my family reacting badly...but it's not like there's overwhelming evidence that they would, it's just the fear of the unknown....and it's that fear that has affected my life for a while...it's fed my shyness (which I have overcome) it's fed my worries...it's made me a coward when it comes to my life...I talk a good talk about it being my life and if you don't like it, you don't have to live it or be a part of it...but it's not true. I really am a coward when it comes to the unknown.

[eklctc]

I don't think you are a coward. I think you just have to break through the feeling of needing to be 'accepted' which is a concept that affects the lives, lifestyles, and openness of Many people. As a person who broke free of those conditions a long time ago ... I still can understand. It's a process and something else you can continue working on overcoming so that you can live your lovely poly life openly and freely. :) *hugs*

[Indigomontoya]

So happy poly moments for TP and I. Concert was phenomenal..if you've never seen Trans Siberian Orchestra, you must, most of the time I don't like live bands, I always think I could hear the same stuff on the album and not deal with people, and extra noise and expense...but they need to be experienced...ok unrelated tangential plug aside, it was a great night, most time I've spent with Mr. A ever...so she wouldn't feel awkward TP sat in back, so Mr. A and I chatted most of the way up and most of the way back..Geeked out pretty hard over Quarrens, Star Wars EU Novels, and punching the clock at a call centre...I can truly call him a friend.

I was thinking during a quiet moment on the drive home that I was genuinely concerned for Mr. A's possibility of moving away for work because I know what it would do to TP....My issues still abound: women don't want to share, rejection is exponentially worse...etc. etc. and it does get me down, and wear me down the search but I imagine I would have it worse without TP, she's my soft place to fall when need be...and I appreciate that more now, I also appreciate Mr. A and that he relieves some of TPs burden when it comes to me.

[TruckerPete]

I was thinking during a quiet moment on the drive home that I was genuinely concerned for Mr. A's possibility of moving away for work because I know what it would do to TP....My issues still abound: women don't want to share, rejection is exponentially worse...etc. etc. and it does get me down, and wear me down the search but I imagine I would have it worse without TP, she's my soft place to fall when need be...and I appreciate that more now, I also appreciate Mr. A and that he relieves some of TPs burden when it comes to me.

Aw sweetie, you're no more a burden than Mr. A or I! We've all got our problems, but we're making a good team, the three of us, dissipating the sorrows and amplifying the joys.

It was really nice to have someone else to help with navigation. I felt so happy to see how well you worked together.

And yes, when he moves it will break me a little, but I've been broken before and mended and I plan on getting enough positive out of this now, to make up for the possible negatives later.

[Indigomontoya]

So I was deep in conversation about Mr. A and TP today (she's happily napping on the couch surrounded by dogs) because she is meeting his parents tonight (incidentally if anyone knows a good way to remove a ring mark from a finger PM TP) and they are hyper-Christian so she's his girlfriend tonight... and as such she's not wearing her ring (duh) and my friend wanted to know how I feel about it...because it's a big step for their relationship and because she's not wearing my ring (not really caring about that but hey the rest of society does)... I am happy for them, minus the hyper-Christian side of thing, and hiding away a part of their relationship...but anyhoo I was asked how I ended up being friends with Mr. A...now my friend is accepting, and pretty bright, and a consummate scientist so it was a genuine question...

I thought about it and we have common interests and personalities (too common sometimes for TP) and really it just came down to the fact that since TP found me attractive and someone worth spending time with, and still does...that her taste in men hasn't changed so naturally her boyfriend would be similar...

not really a point to this one I guess...other than I am becoming more active in searching for an OSO which in and of itself at times seems counter intuitive as I have fallen ass-backwards into any relationship I've ever been in...no really I have...I checked my memory.

[rabbit]

As far as the rings, maybe she could wear a couple of rings on various fingers and a non-wedding ring on that finger. From what I can tell it is pretty normal for people that like rings, to occasionally wear them on the "ring" finger. Either that or wear a band-aid and say she cut herself chopping potatoes :)

Good luck to all of you for the parent-meeting!

[Mohegan]

Ice and lotion is about all I can think of. I've not taken my rings off in 5 years though, so I have perm. marks.

[TruckerPete]

It ended up not being that noticeable, so I was okay. But we know now that about 24 hours notice is needed.

I'll have to watch out for tan lines when we go to Cuba in February!! :S

[eklctc]

lol@indigo and checking your memory. I wish you well in your search. I am glad you and Mr. A did some bonding and even more happy that you truly consider him a friend. Sometimes, that is hard to come by. I don't consider my partner's wife a friend and it has caused some strain in the relationship overall.

Good the ring line wasn't noticeable. I'm glad you guys are moving right along. *hugs*

[Indigomontoya]

So I was actually having a really great chat over the weekend with one woman, I had told her about poly and TP and she had said "cool" which probably should have been the first flag up that she'd not considered what that meant fully...because this morning I was text rejected....apparently she doesn't believe in Poly relationships (we are all imaginary like leprechauns, unicorns...both kinds...an honest politician etc.) but also that people can't have more than one fulfilling romantic relationship...I had started to argue the validity of poly but stopped since I realized she couldn't be convinced...I know TP ALWAYS tells me I'm not being rejected, she is but I can't help feel like it's me...I guess I just keep pushing on...

I am still in quandary as to when to drop the P-Bomb but both in my profile online and after have had their drawbacks...where's that magic bullet when I need one?

EDIT: Oh and apparently I must have low self confidence to want a poly relationship.

[Carma]

I am so happy to read about your date to the orchestra together.

My husband and my OSO are friends but we have never all 3 been together since we became a V. We talk about going somewhere together to have dinner, about an hour away so we can be discreet. We had the idea the the guys wold ride up front and I'd be in the back, but I could stretch my legs out and into the space between them periodically (of course wearing fishnets, haha!) and reach over to rub their backs, and chat flirtatiously... We have yet to arrange the evening but hopefully it will happen soon, as I think it could help with the "walking on eggshells" feeling. We began our V arrangement on 10-10-10 (isn't that cool? We say it was three "10"s coming together:) ) so it's still pretty new to all of us and we are still in awe of ourselves for being so mature, creative, and respectful of one another's needs/feelings. Not only awe, but it still feels TOO GOOD TO BE TRUE. How can I really be having my cake and eating it too?!

My OSO just got a new apartment and my husband does not want me going there. He feels I will want to "play house," and eventually I will want to leave and go live there instead. No matter how I reassure him, he says it is a very real possibility and he is adamantly opposed. So I agreed I will not violate his wishes. But it is difficult to meet at my house, since my OSO is a former neighbor, and we don't have any discreet way for him to enter the home.

My husband does say that if we BOTH go to his apartment together, that will be ok. So hopefully that will happen soon. :) Because I would really like to spend more time with my OSO -- but if I can include husband, all the merrier! Then no one has to be left out, sitting home alone and lonely.

Husband has gone online, looking for a potential gf, but is running into similar problems I see other primaries here on the forum encountering. I think he really is just monogamous, and is not especially interested in finding a gf; he's happy as a clam being married to me but this new arrangement is throwing him for a real loop. I don't want him to be lonely :(

I am so glad to come hear and read others having similar joys and struggles. Thank you all so much for all you share.

[Indigomontoya]

I am so happy to read about your date to the orchestra together.
My OSO just got a new apartment and my husband does not want me going there. He feels I will want to "play house," and eventually I will want to leave and go live there instead. No matter how I reassure him, he says it is a very real possibility and he is adamantly opposed. So I agreed I will not violate his wishes.

Husband has gone online, looking for a potential gf, but is running into similar problems I see other primaries here on the forum encountering. I think he really is just monogamous, and is not especially interested in finding a gf; he's happy as a clam being married to me but this new arrangement is throwing him for a real loop. I don't want him to be lonely :(


Thanks for your kind words. I think that the way to alleviate some of his concerns is only going to be respecting his wishes. When TP started dating Mr. A she would have disappeared in a puff of NRE energy had there not been very strict guidelines set out that we had both agreed upon (her paraphrased words). I firmly believe it was a very real possibility that she would have disappeared. As long as your are cognisant that your own perspective may be skewed by your new relationship and be aware of his needs it should work just fine. He needs time, and reassurance you're not going anywhere.

I would recommend reading TP's blog: http://www.polyamory.com/forum/showthread.php?t=3447
for her perspective, but from mine

Initially they would only get together 2 nights a week with no overnights. As I became more comfortable with my own jealousy, anxiety, and insecurities I expanded the boundaries. It's really a give and take and he needs to really communicate well his needs as per the time he wants with you. There's plenty you can do to help him with these, most are simple signs that you are not going anywhere, and give him time and allow him to progress at his own pace.

Speaking directly from a perspective of your husband I can say that he might be lonely, but he needs to communicate when his needs are met and when he needs more time with you. As for finding a gf my advice to him is to not look so hard, rejection is cumulatively hard and if he is happy being mono by default then more power to him.

I hope everything works out.

[sage]

This term of yours "mono by default" I find jarring. I know "default" has two meanings but you seem to be using it negatively. Maybe it's just me but it makes me feel like you're settling for mono because you have no other choice?

I know I'm probably projecting my own stuff onto your situation. I'm on a bit of a crusade to be a "positive mono" because I tired of people feeling sorry for me. That's obviously why it triggers me.

[Indigomontoya]

This term of yours "mono by default" I find jarring. I know "default" has two meanings but you seem to be using it negatively. Maybe it's just me but it makes me feel like you're settling for mono because you have no other choice?

I know I'm probably projecting my own stuff onto your situation. I'm on a bit of a crusade to be a "positive mono" because I tired of people feeling sorry for me. That's obviously why it triggers me.

I can understand that, and the tone of my post does lend itself to your assessment.

But mono by default is something I use to simply state that I am poly or trying to be but not yet. I am definitely a positive mono, I can definitively say that and I am sorry it was portrayed any differently, that was my error and not the case. I am of course not fishing for pity but in a very real sense I am monogamous to TP because I have not found another partner...

[sage]

In that case you actually see yourself more as "poly between relationships". Have you had a "secondary" (for want of a better label) relationship?

Z has been meeting with a poly group in Australia and the majority of them are seeking other relationships. He went through all the rejection too of women in the mono world but finds hanging out in the poly world hugely better. Are there any poly goups around where you live?

[Indigomontoya]

I've not had a secondary relationship, come close a couple of times, but never actually had one...hence why it's mono.

[Indigomontoya]

I've not posted in a while mainly because there's not much going on on my end. I am just plugging away with a new job I love, and sometimes proactively looking for an OSO, sometimes not; sometimes I'm frustrated and angry with my rejections, sometimes I feel I could be perfectly happy as mono.

So the eternal struggle of a male poly... I'm not really looking proactively or intensely now as I am just trying not to add to the upheaval and settling with Mr A and TP and her weening off her meds. I just want to add to the stable environment, not detract from it. Just putting myself second, which TP will tell you is my standard state...

[TruckerPete]

So the eternal struggle of a male poly... I'm not really looking proactively or intensely now as I am just trying not to add to the upheaval and settling with Mr A and TP and her weening off her meds. I just want to add to the stable environment, not detract from it. Just putting myself second, which TP will tell you is my standard state...

We're pretty settled now, love. You've been amazing through the process and I couldn't have done it without you. :)

You are my rock, so please don't fret about detracting from a stable environment. Just stop with the second class act and all will work out.

*HUGS*

[Indigomontoya]

Why is it that any heterosexual, consenting adults can have any kind of fetish, some that can be considered a health risk, and it's "Whatever floats your boat." but you get two polyamorous, heterosexual, consenting adults who communicate better, are closer, and happier than their monogamous friends and suddenly their the pariahs?

I received a fuck off and die note after telling a woman I was chatting with about my poly marriage. Apparently she can see why I get hate mail over it, and what I am doing is disgusting... I can't win, I tell them at the outset and I get pissy messages, I establish a repoire, pissy messages, put it in my profile? Hate mail.

Here's what I send usually as the message:

I've really enjoyed chatting and emailing you. So with that in mind, I didn't want you to think I was lying to you, or keeping something from you. I'm in an polyamorous marriage; that does not mean i am looking for one night stands, the easiest way to describe it is that I am in a committed, nonmonogsmous relationship; so I am able to date and have other relationships.

I left it out of the profile because I was receiving hate mail over it. I know I should have been more forth right, but I've bad experiences just coming out and saying before getting to know someone.

I understand if you don't want to speak to me again, I hope that's not the case, but I wanted you to know.

[IM]

[ImaginaryIllusion]

Why is it that any heterosexual, consenting adults can have any kind of fetish, some that can be considered a health risk, and it's "Whatever floats your boat." but you get two polyamorous, heterosexual, consenting adults who communicate better, are closer, and happier than their monogamous friends and suddenly their the pariahs?

Good question...I've asked the very same question many times. :)



I received a fuck off and die note after telling a woman I was chatting with about my poly marriage. Apparently she can see why I get hate mail over it, and what I am doing is disgusting... I can't win, I tell them at the outset and I get pissy messages, I establish a repoire, pissy messages, put it in my profile? Hate mail.

I watched a documentary the other day about a Pregnant Man (Actually a F-M Trans who didn't get full bottom surgery if anyone cares about the 'how'...and let the guys relax...it's not our time yet) and the hate mail, vids, phone calls, harassment, and venom of the neighbors, or just random people who saw an Oprah show was truly astounding. It amazes me that with freedom of speech seems to come this assumption that it also means freedom of judgement of stuff about neighbors or strangers which at the end of the day if none of their F$%^&ng business.

(Sorry about the counter rant here dude...let me know if you want me to move it elsewhere)

I don't use POF anymore, but I can't say as I ever got hate mail or anything on there, (Maybe it's just because you're in Ontario. ;) ) and I used single as a status frequently as well, but it was to dodge the email and search filters. But all I hope you don't let it get you down...it's one of those consider the source things...and isn't it better to know that they're a close minded judgmental hose-beast BEFORE you waste 30 minutes and $5 on having coffee with them! :)


I understand if you don't want to speak to me again, I hope that's not the case, but I wanted you to know.

This particular line may not cause the hate mail, but it does seem a little self-defeatist....it's almost like you're making the decision for them to not talk to you.
If I could suggest something more akin to:
"I recognize this kind of living is not for everyone, and requires an open mind and an honest heart. So I want to be entirely up-front with you, and if you are game, then cool. And if it's not your bag, then no harm no foul."

Again, consider the source...if I knew what to say in messages on those sites to get reply's I'd be spending all my time on OKC instead of posting here. ;)

[Indigomontoya]

I wish there was a happy post...but I don't know how to feel...

I thought I had moved past the feelings surrounding new poly. TP is looking to date a third with Mr A two hours away; I've given my okay as has Mr A...but I thought I would be fine, done it before and survived...thought I was over them but even just the hint of TP's attention being elsewhere makes me anxious...so I'm stepping back and it annoys me...

What's making it worse is my own insecurity of having almost no libido...I feel like I am totally immasculated when I see my wife, the woman I love, who I find attractive and don't want sex, I've thought and thought and it's not sex with her, sex in general, with anyone...with myself... I feel horrible about it and that feeds my insecurity with TP and poly... I've gone through several possibilities and have gone and had blood drawn for hormone level tests but that's a double edged sword...With more symptoms than just libido loss...

If it's a hormone thing, it's either a pill a day until my levels get back to normal or it's a shot a month for the rest of my life if it's very low...and that's not even discussing what might be the cause: pituitary tumours or troubles...and this is the good news...

If it not hormones it's something else, something even more nebulous and internal.... that there aren't clear cures...and that terrifies me...what then?

I've never hopes for a pituitary problem before but now it's an easy fix...unlike my insecurity....

[sage]

You have my sympathies. Did you have libido problems before TP started in her poly relationships?

Why did you give your blessing when you're feeling so bad? Or didn't you realise? I have bad feelings about this. TP has Mr A couldn't she step back from this other relationship while you're so unhappy?

[Indigomontoya]

You have my sympathies. Did you have libido problems before TP started in her poly relationships?

No it's been an ongoing issue. A steady decline now that I think of it...

Why did you give your blessing when you're feeling so bad? Or didn't you realise? I have bad feelings about this. TP has Mr A couldn't she step back from this other relationship while you're so unhappy?

I had thought I'd be fine. I've been through it before, and it has been all right on some aspects: issues with her going out on dates don't bother me. Up to now it's been the one feeling of her attention being divided...it's the reptile brain trying to possess all that's in my domain.

I don't want to have TP step back on my account; I know she would if I asked, and if I had her do that I'd never be okay with her stepping back into it, I'd be keeping the status quo. To move forward I need a push...the libido issue also feeds the reptile brain feelings of inadequacy...she's got to go out because I don't want sex...and I feel horrible because it makes her feel like I dont want her...plus her feeling sometimes runs to being greedy, like you said, she has Mr A why does she want more? And that's not question I've asked nor should she. I will not have her question her needs on my account, I don't need my insecurities dictating someone else's life...

So my issues and insecurities feed her insecurities....but we will work through it, she's understanding and I have clearly established my expectations.

[Tonberry]

Indigo, I think about the libido thing, what I really want to know is why it's a problem to you.

Is it because of the disconnect between your libido and TP's? Or is it something else?

Having a low libido, in itself, isn't necessarily a problem. It doesn't mean anything about you "not being able to want her" any more than her higher libido makes her sex-crazed.

What often causes problems is the difference between two libidos. And I've known that, and I felt terrible. Just like you I was the partner with a lower libido, and it became lower and lower with time. And I felt terrible that I couldn't provide my partner with what's considered so essential in relationship these days (regular sex). Especially when he didn't have other partners.

In my case, it became worse and worse because I felt worse and worse. My libido is a bit higher now that I've stopped feeling guilty about it, but it's never going to be up the roof. I need to be fine with that.

It's hard to know what's causing you to feel bad. Is it yourself? Is it other people? Is it the comparison to TP, or to other males? Either way, I think I would work on that most of all.

I found that sex became less scary and less daunting when I wasn't expected to provide it. Then it could become something I wanted and enjoyed, and not my duty and responsibility and measure of worth. Most of all, it became much easier when I realised I was only responsible for MY sexual satisfaction, not my partner's.
TP can take care of hers. She has other partners, and I'm sure she knows how to masturbate, too. And with you she can get cuddles as a form of intimacy, I'm sure (unless you are having a problem with these? I'm asking because at some point, I ended up having a problem with even these, because I felt that my partner was resenting me when they didn't lead to sex. So I avoided them altogether, too).

You need to try and let go of your feelings of inadequacy: you're responsible of your own happiness, of your own sexual gratification, of your own everything. Not of hers. You're here to help and support her, but it shouldn't be your burden to match her libido. I'm sure she understands that, but you need to understand it too, not just mentally, but from within. That's own I believe you can get better.

I've been in both positions (of having the higher or the lower libido) and I think that perspective really helped me: when I wanted to have sex and my partner didn't, I realised it really wasn't a big deal at all. That made me relax a lot about the other way around. It always seemed much worse when I was saying "no", like I was denying them some kind of essential right.
But it's really not a big deal. I much prefer being the person being said "no" to than the other way around. Then you just need to know not to insist, and ask if something else (cuddling for instance) would be fine. And sometimes I enjoy the cuddling more than I think I would have enjoyed the sex! As I said, it really helped me not feel guilty (although I'm not completely better about it, at least I get over it much faster).

[SNeacail]

And with you she can get cuddles as a form of intimacy, I'm sure (unless you are having a problem with these? I'm asking because at some point, I ended up having a problem with even these, because I felt that my partner was resenting me when they didn't lead to sex. So I avoided them altogether, too).

Oh, I went throught this when my kids were little. My partner did resent me and when my libido returned, he had stoped touching me. I alway had to initiate things and it felt like an obligitory fuck (to this day, I'm not sure it wasn't). The whole thing snowballed out of control.

All I can say is keep TP in the loop of what is going on and in the mean time, find alternative ways to connect. Hugs!

[TruckerPete]

Thank you for your kind words, both of you.

Yes, we have been working on having more cuddles, and other intimate touches that have no expectation of sex attached. I really don't mind being "rejected" ... I mean, what's the alternative, have sex with someone who is not into it? That really defeats the purpose of sex as an expression of love! It feels so very wrong to me.

Sweetie, I love you, and you have such courage to post about this. *HUG*

[Indigomontoya]

Tonberry, what an excellent post. In answer to your question, my low libido is not an issue for me, it is what it is; that being said in my mind it is an issue for us.

Your points are entirely valid, it is the disconnect between TP and I that is the real problem. But we are working on a 'barter system' now replacing sex with intimacy: cuddling, foot rubs (TP loves her foot rubs) etc.

Just trying to keep my head around the fact that this is me, until there's a fix (hormone treatment) it's me...and we will make it work but I have to work on what you stated: making sure that I get over the fact theres a difference.

[Indigomontoya]

Well the results are in...literally...and while it's only a small dip, it's still a dip...normal is about an 8 on some scale for testosterone levels, I'm a 6.5...nit quite what I was hoping for....in truth I had hoped it'd be lower and that would account for a lot of the libido issues; but since it's nominally low I guess I've got to put more work in and figure out what's driving it down more...probably what has been said about a guilt spiral making it worse...damn and I thought there would be a magic bullet...oh well, I have to figure out what I need to do since HRT carries some risks...but at least I have a clear course of action even if it's not a total excuse to set me free of guilt...

Im lucky to have the love and support of a good woman and that makes all the difference in the world...

[Ariakas]

Well the results are in...literally...and while it's only a small dip, it's still a dip...normal is about an 8 on some scale for testosterone levels, I'm a 6.5...nit quite what I was hoping for....in truth I had hoped it'd be lower and that would account for a lot of the libido issues; but since it's nominally low I guess I've got to put more work in and figure out what's driving it down more...probably what has been said about a guilt spiral making it worse...damn and I thought there would be a magic bullet...oh well, I have to figure out what I need to do since HRT carries some risks...but at least I have a clear course of action even if it's not a total excuse to set me free of guilt...

Im lucky to have the love and support of a good woman and that makes all the difference in the world...

I am not sure how physical you are. But hard anaerobic exercise is great for your testosterone levels. I am talking on the low rep power lifting side of things. Its also mentally relieving.

In either case, it might help :)... then again, I used to power lift, so I am a fan of moving lots of weight. :)

[Mohegan]

Even a small dip can effect your libido! I had test after test run for years and was told over and over again that is wasn't enough to make a difference. A yr ago I changed to birth control that has no estrogen at all, and suddenly, I'm back to normal. I want sex, I'm off my psych meds, migraines are undercontrol. It's been kind of amazing.

So I went back through all my old blood tests and sure enough my estrogen was on the high side of normal and test. on the low side of normal.

The thing is we all different on what 'normal' is. Just as we women differ from how much is 'normal' for us vs you men. Every individual is different as well. That small dip may actualy be enough to make a huge difference. Advocate for yourself. If you really feel it is the hormones, find a dr that will listen. It took me 6 yrs and threatening a lawsuit to get answers, but I got them and as much as it sucked to go that long, I now have the ability to live a fulfiiled sex life.

And BTW it never bothered me either. Karma used to say I was the only woma alive who would rather clean a house than have sex. But I just didn't care. I didn't feel like I was missing anything, because I was so used to not having it.

[SNeacail]

And BTW it never bothered me either. Karma used to say I was the only woma alive who would rather clean a house than have sex. But I just didn't care. I didn't feel like I was missing anything, because I was so used to not having it.

This is quite common in women after having kids. What I also discovered was that the no sex had a serious negative effect on my moods. So it turned into this vicous cycle.

I agree with Mo - fight for yourself.

[nycindie]

I found a bodybuilding web page, which lists natural ways to increase testosterone. Apparently, zinc is very important. The page is called "ways-to-increase-testosterone-levels-naturally-without-using-steroids.htm" which you could google to find -- I won't post the link because it's also advertising this guy's business, but here is the things he lists (which should be verified as safe before you do any of these, obviously).

14 ways to naturally Increase your testosterone

1. Get more Zinc
Zinc is very important for the production of natural testosterone because Zinc prevents testosterone from being converted into estrogen (the female hormone) by making the enzyme aromatase not work (see #3 below).

Zinc itself turns estrogen into testosterone and helps produce healthier sperm and higher sperm counts so, low levels of zinc can cause low testosterone levels.

Foods high in Zinc include oysters, beef, liver, crab, seafood, poultry, nuts and seeds, salmon, brown rice, cheese, pine nuts, beans, turkey, milk, yogurt, and cottage cheese or supplement with 50-to-100mg Zinc daily.

2. Eat healthy fats
Research has shown that men who ate diets rich in healthy fats like monounsaturated fats & Omega-3 fats had the highest testosterone levels.
Add more nuts & seeds, fatty fish like salmon & tuna, avocados, olives, vegetable oils, and natural peanut butter.

A very low-fat diet can actually lead to lowered testosterone levels - your body needs healthy fats in order to produce testosterone. This doesn't mean you should eat a REAL HIGH fat diet - Just make sure at least 20-to-30% of your total daily calories comes from healthy fats.

3. Lose body fat
The more overweight you are or the higher your body fat percentage is = the higher your estrogen levels will be. Body fat contains an enzyme, aromatase, that converts your testosterone into estrogen.

Do fat burning workouts to lower body fat, reduce estrogen and increase testosterone.

Try not to cut too many calories when trying to lose body fat because you don't want your body going into starvation mode and cause your body to stop making testosterone.

Make sure you focus on losing 1-to-3 pounds of fat a week mainly thru fat loss workouts and a basic diet plan

4. Get rid of excess estrogen
To get rid of excess estrogen that makes you fatter & weaker so your body can naturally produce more testosterone...

* Eat more RAW cruciferous vegetables (broccoli, cabbage, cauliflower, etc.). Cruciferous vegetables contain a chemical called diindolylmethane (or DIM) that helps you rid excess estrogen from your body. You can supplement with DIM to flush out excess estrogen.
* Eat more fiber to naturally cleanse your body and flush out toxins that cause you to have excess estrogen (like the xenoestrogens from #5 below).
* You can also supplement with Red grape skin extract (resveratrol) to help your liver remove excess estrogen.

5. Try to avoid Xenoestrogens
Xenoestrogens are manmade estrogens found in things like pesticides, artificial growth hormones & steroids, air fresheners and plastic containers and these xenoestrogens will increase your levels of the female hormone estrogen while lowering testosterone.
* Eat more organic fruits & vegetables that are free of pesticides. If you buy your fruits & vegetables at a grocery store, make sure you wash them to lower your chances of consuming any xenoestrogens.
* Eat more naturally raised meats without artificial growth hormones and steroids.
* Use glass products to store food & water. Plastic products tend to produce xenoestrogens that'll get into your water & food especially when heated. Even some canned foods contain plastic coatings that contain xenoestrogens.
* Don't use any perfumes, colognes, or air fresheners that have parabens listed as one of the ingredients. Parabens are xenoestrogens.

Note: It's hard to completely avoid all xenoestrogens but if you follow the other tips on this page (especially tips #3 & #4), you can still naturally increase your testosterone while getting rid of excess estrogen without having to worry so much about trying to avoid xenoestrogens.
Note: Since most xenoestrogens accumulate in your body fat - your best defense against xenoestrogens is to lose body fat.

6. Get at least 6-to-8 hours of Sleep every night
A study showed that men who got little sleep had way lower testosterone levels than men who got 6-to-8 hours of sleep and... According to a University of North Carolina study... Your testosterone levels can drop down by as much as 40 PERCENT when you don't get enough sleep.

Testosterone levels tend to be 30% higher in the morning than in the evening and this is why you may be more horny in the mornings.

A loss of morning erections or loss of sexual desire in the morning can be a sign that testosterone is declining, so get 6-to-8 hours of sleep every night because while you're sleeping your body produces the most testosterone and the better you sleep the more testosterone your body will produce while you sleep.

7. Stress Less
When you get stressed out - your body releases a "stress" hormone called cortisol that shuts down testosterone production. Research led by Population Council endocrinologist Matthew Hardy found that stress hormones like cortisol overpower the enzymes responsible for ensuring that cells in the testes produce testosterone.

Cortisol makes you gain belly fat and you already know from #3 above that the fatter you are = you'll have more estrogen and less testosterone.

Stop worrying about the little things, avoid overtraining, and control your temper to reduce your stress levels and increase Testosterone.

8. Take 1000-to-1500mg of Vitamin C per day
Now if you have a hard time avoiding stress - you want to start taking 1000-to-1500mg of Vitamin C per day because...

1. Vitamin C has been shown to lower cortisol levels allowing your body to make more Testosterone and like Zinc.
2. Vitamin C reduces the armostase enzyme that converts your Testosterone into Estrogen.

9. Workout like a man
You can force your body to produce a lot of testosterone with exercise.

* Do Compound exercises that train large muscle groups: Power Cleans, Squats, Bench presses, Deadlifts, Chin-ups, Dips, and Military presses and you can still do isolation exercises like triceps extensions, bicep curls or chest flyes for definition but if trying to boost your Testosterone and build more muscle quickly - stick with compound exercises.
* According to a Swedish study, to get the biggest boost in testosterone when you do your compound exercises use heavy weights that will allow you to only do about 3-to-5 reps per set. Do about 5-to-8 sets of each compound exercise.
* Limit your workout time on those compound exercises to 1-to-2 hours so just do only 1-to-2 compound exercises followed by a few optional isolation exercises twice a week (Mon. & Thur. for example) and as for burning fat...
* Avoid 'sissy cardio' where you walk or run for long periods of time and start doing Manly Cardio workouts like Hill sprints and intervals 3-to-4 times a week and limit your long duration sissy cardio workouts to only 2 times a week.
* Rest harder than you workout. Overtraining leads to more cortisol and lowers testosterone. Try to get 8+ hours of sleep to allow your body to recuperate and produce more testosterone after you workout.

10. Get Sexually Stimulated as much as possible
If you're not getting sexual stimulated or sexual aroused very much right now (especially if you're over 40), you can dramatically boost your testosterone levels by getting sexually stimulated more often.

Start doing almost anything you can to get an erection. German scientists found that simply having an erection causes your levels of circulating testosterone to rise significantly.

Not getting sexual stimulated or aroused for long periods of time can actually decrease your testosterone levels so if you find it hard to get sexually stimulated. You can do all the other 12 things on this page to increase your testosterone which will increase your sex drive or libido making you get sexually stimulated much easier.

You can take a supplement like Horny Goat Weed to make you get sexually stimulated more easier to ramp up your testosterone levels.

11. Make sure you're getting enough Vitamin A, B & E
Vitamins A , B & E (with Vitamin C & zinc) are essential in the production of testosterone. Not getting enough A, B, & E Vitamins will lead to lower testosterone levels. If you're eating plenty of fruits & veggies, lean meats and nuts then you shouldn't have to worry too much about supplementing with any extra A, B, & E Vitamins.

12. Don't overheat your testicles
Your testicles need to be 94-to-96 degrees or 2 degrees cooler than your body temperature to function best and produce the most testosterone.

Stop wearing tight underwear, tight pants, taking long HOT baths, or anything else that overheats your testicles. It's best to wear looser clothes like boxers.

Carrying around excess fat also overheats your testicles so look at #3 again for how to burn fat.

13. Don't Drink Alcohol & Don't eat Grapefruit
Even if you had only 2 drinks a day, alcohol makes it hard for your liver to breakdown estrogen making you have more estrogen & less testosterone.

Alcohol decreases zinc levels in your body and grapefruit can make it hard for your liver to breakdown estrogen.

14. Boost Testosterone 40% with D-Aspartate
D-Aspartate is an amino acid that's produced in your pituitary gland and your testicles (or your balls) and it boosts the production of testosterone.

D-Aspartate also increases sperm production . . . men taking 3 grams of D-Aspartate every morning increased their testosterone by 40%.

[Indigomontoya]

Well it's been a while, so here's the update.

Blood tests o'plenty and the results: a healthy range for testosterone is between 2.8 and 19.4; I registered at 4.1. So I'm producing testosterone but not a lot, but enough to exclude any chance of hormone therapy. But the brighter side is that the other meds seem to be helping. Working out more, blaming myself less seems to help too.

As for the situation with Mr. A and TP, I worry for her, not in a patronizing way but more in a helpless to do anything way....The prospect of him moving provinces away upsets her.... Though the prospect of having him move in is actually appealing to me. I think partially because I know how happy TP is when Mr.A and I are together with her; and I am sure the fact he and I are good friends is a lot to do with it too.

I posted on a thread today and TP ended up asking if I was now identifying myself as mono (the relationship type, not stealing Mono's identity) and I didn't have an answer. I've not looked for an OSO or even a date in a long while, I don't feel I need it as much as I once was when i was ravenously looking to keep up with TP....I don't know, I'm not shutting out the idea but I am happy where I am now. More confident externally and internally, and generally content where I am in life.

I thought a lot recently about where I am and where I was because of two deaths in the extended family; and I can happily say I like my life, poly included. There's something to be said for a life changing choice that makes the woman I love happy and me a better person for it...I hope Mr. A and TP stay together, they're good together. For that part I am envious because I see them and I want that too...maybe it's greed (my mono brain tells me) maybe not...but love is not finite and too much of a good thing like that can't be bad right?

Ok sweetheart I'm done now, you can read this and get your tired self to bed. I'll put coffee on for the morning....

[Indigomontoya]

So had a great Canada Day with TP and Mr. A; we ended up at my parents like the last few years. Their cul d'sac always puts on a potluck BBQ. We didnt give much of a backstory to Mr. A other than he is our friend and down visiting, my parents did meet him at our wedding so it wasn't completely awkward.

The night was great, towards the end my parents, TP, Mr. A and I retreated into their house for coffee while we waited for it to get dark for fireworks. It was at this point that my father and Mr. A started chatting planes (my father having had a pilot's licence) since he was 16 and of course Mr. A is a flight instructor. They seemed to hit it off nicely, I never really doubted they would but TP and I were exchanging happy smiles most of the conversation.

I did mention to my mother that Mr. A would more than likely be moving in with us while he looked for work. I didn't expect there to be objections or any issue, and frankly if there was my mother was SOL since it is my house and my spare bedroom. But she also knows how giving I can be when people really need it, so she was happy that I was helping a friend.

The reality I didn't emphasize was that Mr. A is 95% moving in at this point, since we've not heard from the job opportunity. Already getting questions ready to have a sit down and set up expectations for him, and his for us. Cover foibles and follies for living together. TP is definitely relishing the idea and I see it as her entering a second honeymoon phase with the caveat that there's probably going to be some adjusting on all sides required. I am not very particular about the way certain things are done around the house, but I worry that Mr. A will in fact be reticent to assert his needs and his opinions since he's coming into our house; I suppose I just have to make it clear that while he lives here it's his house too, he's not a houseguest anymore he has rights for his space and how he does things, etc.

But that's communicating with a guy all emotiony and gross....women do that, it comes from their ovaries. :P

[Tonberry]

This is all so exciting!

I'm very glad your father and Mr.A hit it off. It's good that they get along, even if there is no plan on coming out, at the very least they won't be objecting to your "friend" living with you if they like him.
It sounds like you had an awesome day, which is heartwarming. I always love hearing about things like that with "extended family" (I mean Mr. A). It's good to know that you can have family times even without coming all the way out, it gives hope.

About the move, I can imagine a lot of things will change and need to adapt, and there will be ups and downs, but I'm very excited for you guys and I can't wait to hear more about it.

[Indigomontoya]

Thanks Ton,

You're right about making it easier since my mum without skipping a beat said he's welcome at family dinners; eventually I will have to come out to them, so having a good preexisting relationship with my family will go along way to how they react.

[MonoVCPHG]

But that's communicating with a guy all emotiony and gross....women do that, it comes from their ovaries. :P

HAHA! That's perfect :D

[Indigomontoya]

So it's been a couple of weeks since Mr. A moved into our house. We (TP and I, though probably Mr. A as well) aren't sure how long he will be staying. As it stands the move really was painless...really couldn't ask for much more than that.

No real complaints about Mr. A or TP, even the sleeping arrangements seem to go smoothly. Even getting quality time together is easy, Mr. A and I...and TP really just discuss what our needs are and we make the plans. Mr. A has even suggested that we do things together..all 3 of us...which is nice to know he is putting in that effort. I guess I should complain about myself since the couple of weeks he has been here I have been having peaks (of the peaks and valleys) of feeling secondary or inadequate. I suppose it really has to do with the fact that TP can be sexually intimate with Mr. A but she and I are still facing problems in that area. Counselling has really helped all aspects of our relationship, except for that...I think we just need to start from the ground and work up, rebuild the intimacy slowly...I know this is the case and it can take time but in the mean time it's frustrating and I am doing my best to absolve myself of the guilt I feel because of it.

As for my libido, it's back to normal, or where I feel it's normal anyway. Though I still don't want to look outside of my marriage for anything, I just want to focus on working with TP....

[Indigomontoya]

Well it's been a while....I have been focused on my marriage with TP to the exclusion of poly, and to be honest that's the way I like it. While I might come back and make a go of looking for another partner for myself, right now I am very content to be another monogamous arm in the V that is TP, Mr. A, and I.

Well there's plenty to update on: New job...well new position, I'm the boss now at my work and I love it. I haven't felt this good about my work in a long while, it makes me feel confident in myself again: "I'M THE BOSS." not to mention that provincially I am recognised as a bit of a hot commodity since my organization is unique in the province because of how we operate. It's shown me that I can be the confident person I was 5-6 years ago and that makes me feel amazing.

Counseling was/is going well. TP and I had several sessions breaking down where our communication needs were not being met by each other, and we are both working to adjust the behaviours...I say working because it's always a work in progess but there is progress. The libido is back but the counseling really brought out how it's a trust issue between TP and I, trust that I won't hurt her (emotionally) so it's a long road back to trusting me again...and that's fine, there have been some hiccups along the way but I think we are moving forward even if at times it seems like we are sisyphus and trust is our boulder....yeah I rocked that metaphor, suck it Mr. A and your English degree :P....Speaking of Mr. A, he's been living with us now for what....four months? maybe...I dunno...and it's been less of an adjustment than I thought it would be...I like having him around, extra set of hands with chores...and it means I have been letting go of my need to constantly be doing something and have been letting Mr. A and TP do more...I say letting go because TP will tell you I still get antsy if I sit for too long...

TP and are coming up on our first year anniversary this Sunday...I can't believe it's been a whole year, it definitely feels like it (not in a bad way) though I do find myself excited for time alone now and again...but that's not a bad thing is it?

[Tonberry]

Congratulations!
Wow, a year already... Time flies. And four months of living with Mr. A... It feels like it was just yesterday that he moved in with you guys.

I'm glad you're happy :)