Discussion on Forum Sociology and Interpersonal Dynamics [Archive]

NeonKaos

08-10-2010, 08:21 PM

In all honesty though-while I think you are sometimes more blunt than necessary-
I GREATLY PREFER BLUNT
over the game playing b.s. that people play trying to be something that they are not.

The thing is - I hate it when people pussy-foot around something because they "don't want to hurt my feelings". To me, it is insulting, condescending, like saying "you can't HANDLE the truth™ being told to you, so we need to dress it up, put a silk hat on a pig, make things look like something they are not >JUST FOR YOU< because you are not able to face reality". And this is all packaged up as being "kind and gentle". Well, excuse me for not needing that special treatment. I will be hurt or not no matter how you tell me whatever it is you have to tell me. Just get it over with.

And I believe in treating others the way I would like to be treated.

I also think that people are not as "unique" as they are taught to think they are, and that it is a bit of a waste to patronize others with things like "my poly is not your poly". Even though there is a lot of validity in that statement and others like it, they can make a convenient smoke-screen when folks want to avoid responding to or dealing with something that makes them feel uncomfortable.

I've heard two types of criticism about the "tone" or "culture" of this forum. One, that everyone on here is here to "yes" each other and only the people who agree with the "feel-good-I'm-ok-you're-ok-and-don't-you-dare-rain-on-my-parade" are "privileged" and "acceptable". While on the other hand, there is a backlash of "But I thought this forum was supposed to be for SUPPORT, and I was JUDGED instead."

When I first joined here I didn't think I would last very long. I thought I would be scolded by the moderators and eventually banned.

LovingRadiance

08-10-2010, 11:21 PM

Y-
I happen to agree with you on the "why do we have to pretend we're saying something nice. Constructive Cristicism isn't kissing your ass-it's CRITICISING what you are DOING (wrong imo).

It's ironic-because I've stayed out of the HMA/Violet drama, but I find that in my real life I'm getting some shit for being blunt and point blank as well. :)

A lot of people just do not want to know what they do wrong. They'd rather just hear the things that they do right-and never know what they do wrong. People like to complain and whine about their life-martyr themselves or blame others for their misery. They don't really want to CHANGE their life/problems.

I've gotten to the point that often-I just don't reply to a lot of the posts anymore-for precisely that reason. I also don't listen or respond to a lot of the complaining by people around me in R/L for the same reason.

redpepper

08-12-2010, 06:10 AM

K, confession time- for over a year now I have been PMing people on here who seemingly get their back up over your statements that seemingly come out of know where if one doesn't know you. I have been giving them a gentle info session on the subtle humour and not so delicate way you say things.... just to help them understand and give them guidance so that they may not be offended...:D

I know that you have helped me. My spelling and grammer has never been better :D not to mention the kicks in the ass you have given me. :) we are oh so helpful to one another aren't we? Symbiotic for sure!

I also think that people are not as "unique" as they are taught to think they are, and that it is a bit of a waste to patronize others with things like "my poly is not your poly". Even though there is a lot of validity in that statement and others like it, they can make a convenient smoke-screen when folks want to avoid responding to or dealing with something that makes them feel uncomfortable.

yup, this would be me on occasion. I am guilty of that and happy to admit. I like that about myself. I actually know when I have had enough and chose to back out of further bashing over the head with not the intent to help or be gentle when I am already beaten, but to make a point of making me uncomfortable and showing me up; kicking me more when I am already down. Call it patronising if you will, but I call it saving face and why shouldn't we have that right?

I've heard two types of criticism about the "tone" or "culture" of this forum. One, that everyone on here is here to "yes" each other and only the people who agree with the "feel-good-I'm-ok-you're-ok-and-don't-you-dare-rain-on-my-parade" are "privileged" and "acceptable". While on the other hand, there is a backlash of "But I thought this forum was supposed to be for SUPPORT, and I was JUDGED instead."

When I first joined here I didn't think I would last very long. I thought I would be scolded by the moderators and eventually banned.

People have left because of the atmosphere of this forum being a therapeutic environment rather than a "fuck you asshole you're wrong" fest as on other forums... why have you stayed...?

I do hope those who can't play nice have found other alternatives. I wouldn't want them to be left out, but don't encourage them to come here if they have that attitude.

Ceoli

08-12-2010, 07:29 AM

HAHA! Oh we are so privileged to of made space for a peaceful respectful environment of safety on the internet. I'm SO glad to have this haven to rest in when I am feeling raw and vulnerable... as most people who come here feel when they arrive on our doorstep... battered and confused.

We should feel so proud to of achieved such high status and admiration amongst our poly community... part of that is thanks to you ygirl, yet you seemingly roll your eyes at the atmosphere along with some of your friends. I don't get it?

Ummm...yeah. Just a reminder that this is actually a very select haven. There are plenty of people who don't consider this such a safe space because their point of view or thoughts on topics are consistently met with resistance and shot down. And there are plenty of the poly community who don't admire this place because of it's subtle way of judging different practices of poly that don't conform to the way a core group of dominant posters practice it. And there is always a lot of tension and grief whenever people who run counter to this culture attempt to make space for themselves on this forum.

Not saying this to be a nay-sayer but as a reality check. I would say that is is a good place for a subset of the poly community but not for the poly community as a whole.

Then again I've said that before and gotten a lot of shit for it, and I'm sure I'll get shit for it again and lots of people telling me I'm wrong. So be it. I probably won't have time to reply (as I'm currently leading a week long sexuality education course) but I can say that as an active member of a rather large poly community, both locally where I live and more geographically spread from being online, this place is avoided by many for the above stated reasons.

Ceoli

08-12-2010, 07:50 AM

People have left because of the atmosphere of this forum being a therapeutic environment rather than a "fuck you asshole you're wrong" fest as on other forums... why have you stayed...?

I do hope those who can't play nice have found other alternatives. I wouldn't want them to be left out, but don't encourage them to come here if they have that attitude.

I find it interesting that people who post in a way you deem acceptable are "playing nice" while other people who feel that posting their authentic views on things are seen as "fuck you asshole you're wrong." Perhaps this tone policing is what makes the space unwelcoming for many people. One of my feminist groups on Fetlife has a view on tone policing that I tend to agree with. It's about privilege:

Tone-policing- We recognize tone-policing as being a form of policing the human expressions of others. Anger, hurt, and even the occasional fit of all-caps can only be considered illegitimate expressions of an experience if we assume that full expression is limited to the privileged classes.

I know it may seem like words like "privileged class" etc are rather strong ways to express it. (Class? There are no classes here! It's an internet forum!) But there are certainly more privileged people than others here. There are certainly people who are more accepted than others here.

There are many ways that people put other people down on this forum without even knowing it. Yet it seems that in order to preserve the "therapeutic environment" here, those who have been put down have the obligation to check their feelings and "communicate compassionately" or "show maturity" rather than be truthful about how they feel for the sake of not making the person who put them down feel unsafe. As a result, they have to be the ones who don't feel safe. This dynamic has shown up plenty of times. I respect Y-Girl's blunt style of calling things out. For some reason, Y-Girl has been granted a pass on this by the powers that be. For some reason, Redpepper finds it acceptable to personally be a buffer for her yet chastise other people for the very same behavior. I do find that interesting.

Additional note: I happen to think that the type of bluntness displayed by Y-Girl contributes to a safe space. Generally, authenticity can be a safer way to communicate than being polite. Politeness is about having to check yourself and censor natural communication in order to be more acceptable to others. That doesn't sound terribly safe to me. This dynamic is talked about a lot among anti-racist and anti-oppression activists. There is a great article about the the privilege of politeness that sheds some light on it. (http://theangryblackwoman.com/2008/02/12/the-privilege-of-politeness/)

NeonKaos

08-12-2010, 01:07 PM

Additional note: I happen to think that the type of bluntness displayed by Y-Girl contributes to a safe space. Generally, authenticity can be a safer way to communicate than being polite. Politeness is about having to check yourself and censor natural communication in order to be more acceptable to others. That doesn't sound terribly safe to me.

Wow, thanks, but I think I do a pretty good job of being both authentic AND polite! :cool:

Despite being a self-identified misanthrope, I think that the people on this forum are all basically good and trying to do what they believe is right. I question their reasoning and processing sometimes, and I have a tendency to see "elephants in the room" that may not really be there. I explained in this thread why I take the chance that people will be offended by that.

Some of you are already aware that I struggle with the forum "tone" policy. I make an effort to follow it when it comes to my own posts (as far as things like saying "fuck you' to people go). I think it's ok to say "fuck you" as long as we can all move past it and not spiral into "Well fuck you TWICE", "No, fuck you THREE TIMES", "A THOUSAND TIMES FUCK YOU". I don't care if the angry black lady disagrees with that.

Not saying this to be a nay-sayer but as a reality check. I would say that is is a good place for a subset of the poly community but not for the poly community as a whole.

And this. This is what I have been saying all along (in the private conversations we've had). I didn't think you agreed with it. I'm sorry if I can't make things right for everybody, but I don't have the kind of control over this place that folks might think I do.

NeonKaos

08-12-2010, 01:25 PM

Ceoli

08-12-2010, 01:30 PM

Wow, thanks, but I think I do a pretty good job of being both authentic AND polite!

Yeah. I think we agree on what is polite, but I think there are other definitions of politeness that I take issue with.

AutumnalTone

08-12-2010, 02:39 PM

There are plenty of people who don't consider this such a safe space because their point of view or thoughts on topics are consistently met with resistance and shot down.

That could be characterized as their ideas are found lacking and they run away and hide from those folks who just refuse to convert.

I've had folks disagree with me on things here since the beginning--non-stop resistance, if you will. I'll suggest that the difference between somebody like me and the folks who run away is that I'm not trying to convert anybody.

And there are plenty of the poly community who don't admire this place because of it's subtle way of judging different practices of poly that don't conform to the way a core group of dominant posters practice it. And there is always a lot of tension and grief whenever people who run counter to this culture attempt to make space for themselves on this forum.

I look around on here and we have folks doing poly in a whole lot of different fashions. Based on that, I'd have to say I find this criticism lacking.

Not saying this to be a nay-sayer but as a reality check. I would say that is is a good place for a subset of the poly community but not for the poly community as a whole.

I doubt there's going to be any single place that is suitable for the entire poly community as a whole. Because of that being a practical impossibility, any criticism that not everybody would be happy here is irrelevant, I think.

Then again I've said that before and gotten a lot of shit for it, and I'm sure I'll get shit for it again and lots of people telling me I'm wrong. So be it.

If you think having people disagree with you is catching shit and a horrible experience, then this isn't the place for you. We allow folks to disagree here. We simply expect them to play nicely while they disagree.

AutumnalTone

08-12-2010, 02:53 PM

I find it interesting that people who post in a way you deem acceptable are "playing nice" while other people who feel that posting their authentic views on things are seen as "fuck you asshole you're wrong." Perhaps this tone policing is what makes the space unwelcoming for many people. One of my feminist groups on Fetlife has a view on tone policing that I tend to agree with. It's about privilege:

Tone-policing- We recognize tone-policing as being a form of policing the human expressions of others. Anger, hurt, and even the occasional fit of all-caps can only be considered illegitimate expressions of an experience if we assume that full expression is limited to the privileged classes.

I'll call shenanigans on this.

The type of behavior expected is here is the type that would be acceptable at a dinner party. Posters can disagree with each other and continue in discussion. They can't scream at other people or cuss others out willy nilly or anything else that would have them escorted out of a dinner party in short order.

I respect Y-Girl's blunt style of calling things out. For some reason, Y-Girl has been granted a pass on this by the powers that be. For some reason, Redpepper finds it acceptable to personally be a buffer for her yet chastise other people for the very same behavior. I do find that interesting.

Ygirl communicates in a fashion that is both blunt and avoids abusing other people. She meets the standard expected for discussion here--the same standard that applies to everybody.

If folks can't figure out what the difference is between how YGirl communicates here and how other posters who have been moderated communicate, then I'll offer that the problem is not one inherent in the policies of this site.

Additional note: I happen to think that the type of bluntness displayed by Y-Girl contributes to a safe space. Generally, authenticity can be a safer way to communicate than being polite. Politeness is about having to check yourself and censor natural communication in order to be more acceptable to others. [/QUOTE]

We don't have a policy of politeness here; we have a standard of civil discussion here. We may couch it in a general description of "play nicely," though you'll find that the more concrete guidelines point to a standard of civility. Our preference in moderating the boards is to allow as much free expression as possible while maintaining civility.

Ceoli

08-12-2010, 02:54 PM

That could be characterized as their ideas are found lacking and they run away and hide from those folks who just refuse to convert.

I've had folks disagree with me on things here since the beginning--non-stop resistance, if you will. I'll suggest that the difference between somebody like me and the folks who run away is that I'm not trying to convert anybody.

Sure it could be characterized like that. Feel free to do so. It's a lot easier to do that than to listen to the concerns of those who may be on the other side of that. And this isn't about people trying to convert anyone. It's about people who offer differing perspectives that tend to be invalidated here if those perspectives don't sit well with others.

Either way, you're free to do with it what you wish.

I look around on here and we have folks doing poly in a whole lot of different fashions. Based on that, I'd have to say I find this criticism lacking.

And I look around here and see something different. Based on that, I'd have to say that I find this criticism of my point lacking.

I doubt there's going to be any single place that is suitable for the entire poly community as a whole. Because of that being a practical impossibility, any criticism that not everybody would be happy here is irrelevant, I think.

At what point did I say that everyone should be happy here? I didn't. I just pointed out where the boundaries are.

If you think having people disagree with you is catching shit and a horrible experience, then this isn't the place for you. We allow folks to disagree here. We simply expect them to play nicely while they disagree.

Playing nicely and not playing nicely can show up in all sorts of subtle ways. I find it interesting that certain people here seem to catch shit in order to protect others here from catching shit. And whether or not it's the place for me is irrelevant. If you're happy with such spurious and selective standards then clearly this is the right place to be, which is why I suggested that this is not a good place for the poly community as a whole, but good for a subset of the community.

I would suggest that people don't always play as nicely as they claim here, even though it may appear so. You may want to examine how such things play out and how this space can be an unwelcoming place for some people. Or you can say "screw them". There are all sorts of ways to build a community, and if that's the kind of online community you want to build here, then more power to you.

Ceoli

08-12-2010, 03:02 PM

I'll call shenanigans on this.

The type of behavior expected is here is the type that would be acceptable at a dinner party. Posters can disagree with each other and continue in discussion. They can't scream at other people or cuss others out willy nilly or anything else that would have them escorted out of a dinner party in short order.

Interesting. I'm not actually talking about people screaming or cussing others out willy nilly. I'm talking about how accepting the general culture is. To bring it to extreme examples is a straw man argument. Besides, who's dinner party? Different people have different ideas of what polite dinner party conversation is. Some people aren't allowed to swear at all, others are. Either way, it's a spurious argument at best. It's saying that people who have experienced insult must be polite about how they've been insulted. That's not always the best way to respond. Being authentic with your anger is not the same is throwing out "fuck you's" willy nilly. Yet it does tend to come to that when people here are chastised (and by chastised, I mean told by the community as a whole that they have no business expressing their feelings on the matter) for being angry at something long before it gets there.

Ygirl communicates in a fashion that is both blunt and avoids abusing other people. She meets the standard expected for discussion here--the same standard that applies to everybody.

If folks can't figure out what the difference is between how YGirl communicates here and how other posters who have been moderated communicate, then I'll offer that the problem is not one inherent in the policies of this site.

Again, not the point I'm making. The dynamic is much more subtle than that.

We don't have a policy of politeness here; we have a standard of civil discussion here. We may couch it in a general description of "play nicely," though you'll find that the more concrete guidelines point to a standard of civility. Our preference in moderating the boards is to allow as much free expression as possible while maintaining civility.

And again, people can appear to be playing nicely whilst simultaneously flat out invalidating the experiences of others. They can couch this in "it's just how I feel" or "my poly isn't your poly" etc, but the effect still stands. Most people don't even know they're doing this. But generally, this is not a space where people can be called out on their ignorance without it turning into some drama. There are other boards that have a much more mature approach to it and where there can be a much more diverse community that can safely coexist.

If you want to be proud of your exclusivity, more power to you.

Magdlyn

08-12-2010, 03:08 PM

NeonKaos

08-12-2010, 03:13 PM

I would suggest that people don't always play as nicely as they claim here, even though it may appear so. You may want to examine how such things play out and how this space can be an unwelcoming place for some people.

I don't like this "people" and "some people" parrying. I would like to see naming of names and quoting from messages with examples of "how such things play out". I am probably guilty of this too, without even realizing it, so please do me this courtesy. Please be specific, even if it means "embarrassing" me (not that you would ever censor yourself for MY benefit, but I want people reading this to know that I asked for it).

AutumnalTone

08-12-2010, 03:14 PM

This may offend some people, but I'll be totally honest. I read some stories and wonder what I would do in the same situation. I read others and say to myself, "Thank gaud that ain't me." Still others I read and recognize myself at some point in my life.

True, that. There are times I ache so much after reading too many of the sad stories from new folks that I just don't have the stomach to try to chase down any of the threads where I'd like to follow the discussion. There are times I want to ask people "Why in HELL are you still involved with that person?!" There are times I despair over the whole human race because of what I read folks are doing to each other in what's supposed to be a loving relationship. It's spilled out into my FB status at times (and my ex-gf thought one status update was about her and the bad relationship she dove into after we split up).

Why did I decide not to stay away after getting my legs chopped from behind? This place helps people. Not everybody will be comfortable here--I've understood that from the beginning and have never made an attempt to appeal to everybody. Some folks won't like it because too many people disagree with them. Some folks won't like it because they can't scream and carry on as they'd like to. Some folks won't like it because they just don't like some of the most active posters. Some folks won't like it because they have a narrower definition of poly than other posters here. Some won't like because they have a wider definition of poly than most people here. Some folks won't like it because it's not a meat market. And so on.

That's OK. There are lots of folks who find this place useful and helpful and that's what keeps me plugging away mostly out of sight working to keep the dinner party going.

AutumnalTone

08-12-2010, 03:18 PM

And again, people can appear to be playing nicely whilst simultaneously flat out invalidating the experiences of others. They can couch this in "it's just how I feel" or "my poly isn't your poly" etc, but the effect still stands.

Weren't you just trying to claim that we shouldn't be limiting how people express themselves?

Or did that only apply to some of the people? Those you'd choose to express themselves freely?

Seems to me you want to show preference to some expression and not to other expression--the same thing you're complaining about us doing.

I also see you trying to lay dislike you have for members here at the feet of the board admin/mod staff. You criticize folks for not taking criticism well--a problem with members--while offering that other sites take a more "mature" approach as if there's some magic wand the staff can use to keep folks from getting pissy in the face of disagreement. The mod staff can do nothing about people getting pissy--we can only rein in abusive behavior in posts.

So, is your problem a social one in that you just don't like the members here? Or is it a structural one and our insistence on civil discussion that offends you?

The more I read, the more I'm convinced that the issue is one of folks who don't like some of our members staying away and claiming this site is somehow exclusive because they choose to stay away. I've seen nothing that indicates anything different and the only problem I see with it is that they're offering up their choice as somehow being forced upon them.

Ceoli

08-12-2010, 03:19 PM

Ceoli, I hear a lot of bitterness in your posts.

What do you see as the acceptable model of polyamory here, that you find so disturbing?

Myself, I see most ppl here as having some sort of poly-fidelitous arrangement. But I do see some ethical sluts such as myself here as well.

Magdlyn, I wouldn't say that I'm very bitter. I do get annoyed with the tone of some of the responses to what I say, but they are just as free to have that tone as I am to express my annoyance with it.

However, community organizing is an important thing to me and so is marginalization. I find communities that actively reject marginalized people to be rather dysfunctional. Since this is a site that falls highly in google searches, it strikes me that there are ways it can be a bit more responsible about examining how welcoming it really is.

As of now, this is a great site for mono couples opening their relationship, strongly couple-centric ways of practicing poly and the general poly-fi model. There are all sorts of ways that these models take up the most space and generally don't leave much space for others. This happens in all sorts of subtle ways that people can either examine or not. If people see that as a fiction I'm weaving or as being over-senstitive, that's fine. If this site is happy with where it is, then great. But it would not be true to say that this site is the place to go for everyone who is struggling. There are many struggling people who would not feel welcome here. There are definitely other sites where alternative voices have more weight. This isn't one of them. It would just be nice if those sites googled as high as this one, then people who are new to poly that approach it in other ways wouldn't be put off.

Ceoli

08-12-2010, 03:23 PM

Weren't you just trying to claim that we shouldn't be limiting how people express themselves?

Or did that only apply to some of the people? Those you'd choose to express themselves freely?

Seems to me you want to show preference to some expression and not to other expression--the same thing you're complaining about us doing.

Nope. I'm pointing out privilege. I'm pointing out that there is a favored way of expression here that is considered fair by some, and not fair by others. It seems that you (since you're saying "us" here) consider it fair and are saying "too bad" to those who may not consider it fair.

I'm saying that not everyone feels the freedom to call out such ignorance because of the need to preserve the "therapeutic nature" of this site. You seem to be ok with that. I hold a different standard.

NeonKaos

08-12-2010, 03:31 PM

It would just be nice if those sites googled as high as this one, then people who are new to poly that approach it in other ways wouldn't be put off.

We have the same issue in the realm of CF forums. Certain ones are more "hardcore" than others, and even the non-hardcore ones vary when it comes to things like inclusiveness. There is one, perhaps the most "offensive" one in terms of allowing "willy-nilly fuck-you's" as well as usage of terms such as "faggot" and "retard", that has extremely high Google ratings. Other CF forums disagree with the "hate" site that allows everything being displayed in Google as an "example".

I don't put much stock in Google ratings. I tend to think for myself. If something is high up on the Google search results, I always look further. It's a bit insulting to people searching on the internet to assume that they are "put off" from poly just because they don't like the first forum that shows up in Google. It's a bit like saying that they would be "put off" of Asian food because they didn't like the food served by the first restaurant that showed up when they googled "hot and sour soup".

Magdlyn

08-12-2010, 03:33 PM

What is this CF you referenced, YGirl?

Ariakas

08-12-2010, 03:35 PM

I read these complaints when I first got here. And a lot of the dissension made this site almost unbearable at times (thanks LR for convincing me to stick around). My pov differs from most people on this site, my "type" differs greatly. I found the atmosphere abrasive and almost violent. No topic could be debated without someone getting really pissy or trying to twist words into their own use, I always felt like I was watching politicians debate, instead of taking the intended meaning of the posts people would rip them apart and make the context change. That has since stopped since some members have left (usually in a huff). I am still on a forum that does this, okc for the record, people there love to rip apart what is said and blow it up their ass and hand out an apple pie made from blueberries. Fun to watch but not inviting to say the least. I don't run into those challenges here anymore.

What that says, who knows. I have been sysoping and admining sites since I was a kid (over 20 years). This site is run pretty well with lots of differing views with a foundation of a very soft set of terms (everyones poly is different, well thats kind of a weak foundation to build a site on in my very long experience at doign this). You can't be positive to everyone because not everyones version of positive works.

Take this next point as you want ceoli - I have been on 3 other poly forums. I only visit this one (I exclude fetlife as a poly forum because we all have a foundation of fetish to build our stories on, making it a very different feel to here). Your version of mature, respectful and welcoming may not be everyones version. I dislike the feel and emotions of the other sites so stopped visiting. I am not sure what sites you are talking about specifically, but I am just throwing out some anecdotal evidence that rulesets are far from universal or accepting. Someones extreme positivity and acceptance may well be someone elses turn off.

ces la vie, I don't run the site and don't have any real say. I enjoy the contrary positions this site offers without being preachy (thats important to me), that makes someone like me feel welcome. I have never had a problem putting up an opposite opinion to some of the stronger members here. I can remember a time I posted something contrary to a member and she lost it, taking what I said, and handing me back blueberries. Thats not debate, so I walked away from that talk and put her on ignore.

I think the only thing I don't like about this site, and this is not limited to here, is the lack of story line when things are tough (this applied for regulars I should say). I find sometimes people tend to only post when things when they are going well. This creates a false sense of "how it can be" when everyone is dealing with their demons. In any relationship. If we are honest, and in a way representing poly, we should be honest about both sides of the coin. Tabling only one side creates a skewed view. This creates a lot of pressure on the newbs to have that perfect poly relationship, when we all know its continuous hard work. I felt that pressure when I started here but began to ignore it as I just couldn't believe poly could be that clear and concise for people.

This is changing a bit, as more people are blogging, and more members are joining. But it was a concern of mine shortly after I joined.

Anyways, take this as you want it or don't want it.

Ari

NeonKaos

08-12-2010, 03:36 PM

What is this CF you referenced, YGirl?

"CF" stands for "child-free". There is a thread about it on here somewhere, "CF and poly", which didn't go the way I believe the OP intended for it to go, but is an interesting read nonetheless.

Magdlyn

08-12-2010, 03:42 PM

Oh, thanks. I go to several msg boards where the term stands for Christian Forum. Thanks for clearing up my confusion.

Ceoli

08-12-2010, 03:45 PM

I don't put much stock in Google ratings. I tend to think for myself. If something is high up on the Google search results, I always look further. It's a bit insulting to people searching on the internet to assume that they are "put off" from poly just because they don't like the first forum that shows up in Google. It's a bit like saying that they would be "put off" of Asian food because they didn't like the food served by the first restaurant that showed up when they googled "hot and sour soup".

Could be. But if a resource is going to be a resource, it would be nice for that resource to be inclusive rather than exclusive.

Magdlyn

08-12-2010, 03:50 PM

Ceoli, I joined more recently than you, and didnt see the dramas you refer to, where people felt too judged and left in a huff. (Except for last week, HMA and Violet and his seeming dismissal of her hurt at him putting the needs of a girl he's known a few weeks ahead of the feelings of Violet, his fiance.)

But this is a young board, and the culture here is still evolving. I suggest you look at what is going on presently, and not hold early interactions so close to your heart.

Ceoli

08-12-2010, 03:58 PM

TruckerPete

08-12-2010, 04:01 PM

I suffer from moderate to severe social anxiety, which is made worse in anonymous situations (such as an online forum) or other situations where I don't feel like I can get the full picture communicating with someone (phone, email).

For the record, while I have found the strong opinions of some members intimidating, I have not been offended or scared away by any responses to my posts. I've come to an online, faceless community for advice. I accept that I will either hear things I want to hear, things I might not want to hear but are still constructive, or morons not being helpful yet. (The last has not occured for me.)

Yes, I agree that the established, loving, stable relationships are also intimidating, but if one digs a little bit, I have found that you can see other sides of the same story. Also, I can't really hold it against people for the hard work that got them to where I'd one day like to be!

So, here's a newb (both to the forum and actually practicing poly) saying that this place is not all that bad. ;)

Ilove2men

08-12-2010, 04:46 PM

redpepper

08-12-2010, 05:21 PM

I have many poly friends in many places. Not one of them is interested in participating in this forum. They come here to read up on me mostly. As I don't talk much about my personal stuff elsewhere. they roll their eyes and think I am crazy for being on here. They don't get why I care so much about the people supported on here and find it sad to read here. I respect that they think differently and get teased about it... Mono too. Actaully some are out and out frustrated with us, but it's our call what we do with ourselves and they inevitably respect that we like it here. They must cause we still hang out even though there are major differences in how we do poly.

I like that there is now a place to stick our grumpy crappy stuff in the form of a blog. I was really glad to start that this week as I felt one sided. I like to give support and saying good stuff does that, however just saying that its all hard work with out evidence of that hard work means nothing.

I'm not sure why people stay here if they don't like it. I have looked at other forums and come back to this one more often than not. I don't have a desire to change other forums though. I just go where I feel comfortable and engaged and challenged in the way that fits for me. others do this too. Yes that is a privilege to be able to have that in my life, but then aren't we all privileged to even have a computer and internet access to be able to find support, challenge etc at all? Some of my poly friends don't and rely on me and others to support them.

I'm not sure what is to be gained by saying we are privileged.... it's a public forum, if it were private, that would be more a privelge to point out I would think....

In any case, I like ygirl's presence here. I will continue to support her and protect her as long as I want to. We all do that with people in our lives. We all support those that we want to. I don't make any apologise for that and won't be changing that any time soon. If ygirl asks to to leave her alone and not support her, then I will do that out respect for her. It's between her and I really.

NeonKaos

08-12-2010, 05:34 PM

I was unaware until this thread that you were defending me in PM to other people. While it doesn't disturb me that this goes on, I think folks should know that I don't ask for this "protection" and I do not even WANT to know whether these conversations are initiated by you (redpepper) or the other parties.

Ceoli

08-12-2010, 05:45 PM

I'm not sure why people stay here if they don't like it. I have looked at other forums and come back to this one more often than not. I don't have a desire to change other forums though. I just go where I feel comfortable and engaged and challenged in the way that fits for me.

It would be easy to read this as "people who feel unwelcome should just leave."

I'm not sure what is to be gained by saying we are privileged.... it's a public forum, if it were private, that would be more a privelge to point out I would think....

Privilege is a dynamic that exists when people who feel unwelcome are made to feel that their concerns are unimportant. As evidenced in this thread.

In any case, I like ygirl's presence here. I will continue to support her and protect her as long as I want to. We all do that with people in our lives. We all support those that we want to. I don't make any apologise for that and won't be changing that any time soon. If ygirl asks to to leave her alone and not support her, then I will do that out respect for her. It's between her and I really.

And that's not the issue. Feel free to defend and make welcome who you want. But just understand that this place is not welcoming for many. Apparently the response to that is, "so what?"

I prefer to be a bit more inclusive, that's all.

redpepper

08-12-2010, 06:08 PM

It would be easy to read this as "people who feel unwelcome should just leave."

Privilege is a dynamic that exists when people who feel unwelcome are made to feel that their concerns are unimportant. As evidenced in this thread.

And that's not the issue. Feel free to defend and make welcome who you want. But just understand that this place is not welcoming for many. Apparently the response to that is, "so what?"

I prefer to be a bit more inclusive, that's all.

I did not say people are not welcome. *You* read into that.

...got it, people feel unwelcome. That's too bad. I do, some don't, I can't do much about that.
@ygirl-got it, you can take care of yourself.

NeonKaos

08-12-2010, 06:33 PM

@ygirl-got it, you can take care of yourself.

People are free to contact other members of this forum privately and discuss whatever or whomever they wish. I would be lying if I said I never do the same.

Ilove2men

08-12-2010, 06:44 PM

Sigh, Ceoli... I just have to get this off my chest. I really admire the knowledge that you CAN bring to the table. You have helped me alot and others here as well, but it was you that I was referring in my agreance with Ari. You seem to have an agenda to point out how this forum has populars kids and the odd balls need to stand aside or leave. It really stinks of highschool issues from your past or something. I just wonder... Why are you here? Why do you come to a board that you so love to bash. I feel you have so much more to offer to the people of this board, but you chose to do this instead. It saddens me. Some don't always agree with what you say, you don't always agree with what others say. I just don't see why you have to break up and decipher other's posts to suit your agenda. What are you achieving within yourself by brow beating the people on here? I say this not from this thread (although it seems to be headed there) but from previous disputes you have had with people here.

All I know is yes there are those who post ALOT more than others and that does set the mood, but we can't limit how many posts they make or set a minimum quota for the lurkers to ensure this place is more dynamic. There is no affirmative action here. So we have a few that stand out more than the rest... This makes us unwelcoming how? People are all different. Some get along. Some don't. Just because it is online doesn't mean that a forum will be comepletely balanced. There are people behind these keyboards. I wouldn't be friends with everyone in the real world and not because they are different (im drawn to different and get annoyed by those similar to me) but because we just don't mesh well. It happens. The world will never ever ever be all inclusive. As much as you want to claim that you are more inclusive than those on here you are merely human and therefore you will suffer the same trait as well all do. The inability to be all inclusive.

and now I'm done. Pick apart what you will if you must. I'll get over with quicy if you like. You will win. 1) I don't want to fuss or debate with you. 2) I'm not on your skill level with this sort of thing.

Just know I respect what I have known you to bring to the table when you aren't on a mission and I wish I would see more of that and less of this.

Ceoli

08-12-2010, 07:00 PM

Sigh, Ceoli... I just have to get this off my chest. I really admire the knowledge that you CAN bring to the table. You have helped me alot and others here as well, but it was you that I was referring in my agreance with Ari. You seem to have an agenda to point out how this forum has populars kids and the odd balls need to stand aside or leave. It really stinks of highschool issues from your past or something. I just wonder... Why are you here? Why do you come to a board that you so love to bash. I feel you have so much more to offer to the people of this board, but you chose to do this instead. It saddens me. Some don't always agree with what you say, you don't always agree with what others say. I just don't see why you have to break up and decipher other's posts to suit your agenda. What are you achieving within yourself by brow beating the people on here? I say this not from this thread (although it seems to be headed there) but from previous disputes you have had with people here.

I have no issues with popularity or anything of the like. I have issues with space and being inclusive with any community that claims to have or seek those traits. I'd just like to see more space made here. Apparently that causes a whole lotta issues for people when I point out there there are places where there there isn't space. I'd just like to see a bit more diversity of views. Apparently making my views about that is "brow-beating". So be it. I have views and I post them. That's why I'm here. I really don't care if I'm liked or even listened to. But I do care about what other people who may come here seeking information see and read.

All I know is yes there are those who post ALOT more than others and that does set the mood, but we can't limit how many posts they make or set a minimum quota for the lurkers to ensure this place is more dynamic. There is no affirmative action here. So we have a few that stand out more than the rest... This makes us unwelcoming how? People are all different. Some get along. Some don't. Just because it is online doesn't mean that a forum will be comepletely balanced. There are people behind these keyboards. I wouldn't be friends with everyone in the real world and not because they are different (im drawn to different and get annoyed by those similar to me) but because we just don't mesh well. It happens. The world will never ever ever be all inclusive. As much as you want to claim that you are more inclusive than those on here you are merely human and therefore you will suffer the same trait as well all do. The inability to be all inclusive.

and now I'm done. Pick apart what you will if you must. I'll get over with quicy if you like. You will win. 1) I don't want to fuss or debate with you. 2) I'm not on your skill level with this sort of thing.

Just know I respect what I have known you to bring to the table when you aren't on a mission and I wish I would see more of that and less of this.

I'm not proposing any of that. Just suggesting that people be a bit more aware. Yet again, when I suggest such things or make my views known, it turns into disruptive drama. Ah well.

Ceoli

08-12-2010, 07:01 PM

...got it, people feel unwelcome. That's too bad. I do, some don't, I can't do much about that.
@ygirl-got it, you can take care of yourself.

Eh. I'd prefer to do something about it.

redpepper

08-12-2010, 07:41 PM

Eh. I'd prefer to do something about it.

You do no? You start your own threads and people engage with you. I don't get it. What more is there, no one has forced an agenda on here. We all do the same things. The fact of the matter is that some people are interested in what we say and some aren't. No one can make people engage. People do when they feel comfortable to do so. I try and create comfort because I want people to engage with (its kind of like the host and being hosted thing I had a thread on once). If people don't create comfort, then how can they expect people to want to talk with them. I certainly have been guilty of making others uncomfortable in my life off this forum, they leave or don't talk with me. I do the same, I leave or don't talk to that person until I feel comfortable.

The rest is left up to the site owner, we can't make up forums on our own, just moderate what's here and follow the policies. If those policies change its up to him. He isn't interested in doing that as its all running along smoothly. If he did and things changed somehow then the mods would adjust or leave and the people who come here would adjust or leave.

AutumnalTone

08-12-2010, 07:54 PM

(everyones poly is different, well thats kind of a weak foundation to build a site on in my very long experience at doign this).

I have to question that claim because I can assure you that such a notion was never considered as essential to anything dealing with site policies. Indeed, I can assure you that such a notion was never considered *at all* when the site policies were being decided.

I can say *definitively* that such a notion is not the foundation of this site.

I think the only thing I don't like about this site, and this is not limited to here, is the lack of story line when things are tough (this applied for regulars I should say). I find sometimes people tend to only post when things when they are going well. This creates a false sense of "how it can be" when everyone is dealing with their demons.
...
This is changing a bit, as more people are blogging, and more members are joining. But it was a concern of mine shortly after I joined.

That is a function of the members posting what they want to talk about--something site staff can't do much about.

AutumnalTone

08-12-2010, 08:00 PM

Could be. But if a resource is going to be a resource, it would be nice for that resource to be inclusive rather than exclusive.

This site includes *everybody who chooses to use it*, so long as they play by the rules.

Folks who exclude *themselves* are in no position to criticize.

Ariakas

08-12-2010, 08:05 PM

I have to question that claim because I can assure you that such a notion was never considered as essential to anything dealing with site policies. Indeed, I can assure you that such a notion was never considered *at all* when the site policies were being decided.

I can say *definitively* that such a notion is not the foundation of this site.

you misunderstand. I am not saying the site was built on "everyones poly is different" I was saying the site was built on poly, which inarguably is a weak foundation.

As an example for clarity, look at biking. I am an admin on a long running bike forum. There is not a lot of wishy washy "is this biking, is that biking, whats biking" going on. The foundation is clear leaving the structure to grow as it will for hobbies.

Poly does not have that same foundation. Hell some of us can't even agree on what love is....let alone what poly is to everyone.

That is a function of the members posting what they want to talk about--something site staff can't do much about.

I know that, I wasn't accusing staff in the least :p ;)...forums are made and broken on the backs of the members...the staff can break things too, but this is the most unmoderated forum I have ever been on...the members are making this forum what it is.

Ari

NeonKaos

08-12-2010, 08:06 PM

The rest is left up to the site owner, we can't make up forums on our own, just moderate what's here and follow the policies. If those policies change its up to him. He isn't interested in doing that as its all running along smoothly. If he did and things changed somehow then the mods would adjust or leave and the people who come here would adjust or leave.

You CAN make up forums for free, though. I was just talking about this with someone in PM. Forumotion and Aimoo are just two such sites where you can make your own free forum in minutes, and they look almost identical to this one. You even get a name like "myforumname.forumsmotion.com". Plenty of folks go that route when they can't find an existing forum that suits their needs, and it's easy to promote these because most forums don't mind promoting other forums that fill the needs of another niche of their target audience.

jkelly

08-12-2010, 08:18 PM

There's a lot in this thread, especially as it became a meta-discussion about the forum instead of about Ygirl, that I felt like responding to.

It really stinks of highschool issues from your past or something. I just wonder... Why are you here? Why do you come to a board that you so love to bash.

I was going to write this long analogy about a team project, and how weird it would be to accuse a dissenter of having issues from high school, but I think it's easier to just sum up by saying that I think that Ceoli is offering constructive criticism, and I get that you don't.

What I think is going on in the larger conversation is disagreement on a few specific points:

This forum can reasonably be described as a resource for people to discuss polyamory. -- I think that there's broad agreement with this.
Many people who post on this forum are well served by it. -- I think that there's broad agreement with this.
There exist people who would like to discuss polyamory who are not well served by this forum. -- There may be some disagreement here.
Some of those people would not contribute anything valuable to the forum. -- I think that there's broad agreement with this.
Some other of those people would contribute something valuable to the forum. -- I think that there's significant disagreement with this.
There is a way in which this forum could continue to serve well the people it does but also serve well additional potential contributors if some steps were taken. -- I think that there's significant disagreement with this.
People who are already well-served by the forum are unlikely to be the best people to evaluate those steps. -- I think that there's significant disagreement with this.

AutumnalTone

08-12-2010, 08:21 PM

you misunderstand.

OK, got it now.

Yeah, the problem with definition is one poly shares with the Pagan movement. Those who aim for accurate descriptions are chastised by those who want terms that can cover a whole bunch of different things (and thus are wholly useless as they mean nothing).

We knew that at the outset and set things up to welcome disagreement and allow everybody to express their thoughts on the issues.

this is the most unmoderated forum I have ever been on...

Heh. And yet we get criticized for moderating what we do because it's stifling and people are unable to express themselves freely. We frisk for weapons at the door and insist on fair fights and then get told we're too restrictive and that makes some people feel unwelcome.

NeonKaos

08-12-2010, 08:23 PM

Ariakas

08-12-2010, 08:38 PM

Heh. And yet we get criticized for moderating what we do because it's stifling and people are unable to express themselves freely. We frisk for weapons at the door and insist on fair fights and then get told we're too restrictive and that makes some people feel unwelcome.

I have had to wield the magic hammer in a lock down of a forum of over 100,000 users. The lockdown chased away a group of 50. In that process we gained another 20,000. Sometimes it is needed and other times it isn't. We had many trolls and people who just werent conceding their own ignorance (damn those hipsters and their fixed gear bikes...:p). It was a significantly larger forum in scale than this. That was heavy handed moderation :)

If people think this is heavy moderation than they haven't played on forums with actual moderation. I have only been censored here once, with a lot of swearing and ranting and horrible sexual innuendo ;)...sometimes rants directed against the longer time members. That censorship came because of a youtube add I posted. Something I shouldn't have done. Moderation on this site is virtually non-existent and the site runs well, kudos to the team.

Your rules simply follow the human condition for reasonable interactions.

I will stop stroking the egos now...back to you usual programming of ... well poly foruming haha

jkelly

08-12-2010, 08:45 PM

I've asked before for what specific steps should be taken and no one ever says anything. I've talked about this with Ceoli privately and she replied that she is not sure that there is anything that can be done by the moderation staff, that "it's not a moderation issue, it's a culture issue".

Sure. I mean, I imagine that really heavy-handed moderation would change the culture a lot, but I don't have any reason to believe it would be for the better, and at that point we're sort of talking about some entirely different hypothetical forum instead of this one.

That said, I don't think it's a "dead horse". Having it pointed out that some people are not well-served can be useful in and of itself, because it can serve as a reminder to check ourselves when it comes to how we treat people who aren't fitting in well. Not to harp on Ilove2, but note that Ceoli is first described as a valuable contributor, but her feedback on the culture of the forum is then described as pathological because her experience of it is different than the majority's.

I think that the general impression here about that is, "Well, if someone can't stand being pathologised, get out of the kitchen." I think that's problematic.

I am pleased to see JKelly finally joining this discussion.

The conversation has sort of moved on, hasn't it? I'm not sure if it makes sense to derail the tangent, which I think is more interesting and important than my specific complaint about your comment on the HMA thread. Or did you mean something else by that?

redpepper

08-12-2010, 09:15 PM

Having it pointed out that some people are not well-served can be useful in and of itself, because it can serve as a reminder to check ourselves when it comes to how we treat people who aren't fitting in well.

Yes it can for the reason you described. I'm just not sure what saying it over and over again is meant to produce. Change? I would assume, but we can only change ourselves then and that takes time or doesn't happen at all if we decide not to. Sometimes we think that we are doing all we can and until a light goes off in ones head, that is just where we are at. That should be respected I think. Or we should move on.

I work in a company that has a main office with two flights of stairs. Its meant to serve my clients, people with disabilities. The director wanted that office because it is high enough to see the ocean from his window. He didn't think about my clients and how we now can't go there easily because of the stairs. He really didn't think about it and has found ways to help us negotiate the stairs. The fact of the matter is that it is awkward and a pain in the ass so we don't go there. We go elsewhere and get our needs met quite nicely.

The world works like that. I think we just need to learn how to deal and get on with it. I make it work for my clients and when he asks me why we don't go there I just say matter-of-factly, "because of the stairs."

I see this forum the same way. It has some stairs. That's just how it is. I chose to shrug it off and make the best of it. If asked then I would say I don't talk about that there "because of the stairs," I go elsewhere. No emotion attached, its just how it is and I don't have a need to be stressed about that as there are other things to be stressed about.

In my job I have a bigger need to make sure my clients are having fun and see they are well taken care of. The stairs are not an issue. They don't even know I struggled because I don't take them there.

Ilove2men

08-12-2010, 09:30 PM

If you read what I wrote I spoke of how she picks apart peoples words to serve her agenda. I didn't say what that agenda is because when she gets on one of these kicks it could be about anything and I also said that it wasn't about this posts. I just see a pattern of what made me uncomfortable about this forum when I was a newbie. Spcifically when she would zero in on someone I was afraid to speak my mind because I am not skilled in that type of debate. I thought that bit of info would be helpful to this topic because as Ari said that is something that has changed and I find this place to be less intimidating.

This forum is made by the idividuals on it. This is a senerio showing the effect that a specific individual had on another's outlook on the forum as a whole. Also you will see where I stated I gravitate to those who are different than I. I'm not saying anything negative about Ceoli because she is not one of the mass. Her knowledge and insight are valuable because she has a way of disecting things that I actually really like. I just think it could be put to better use on the issue at hand not how people explain their own point of view. Maybe there would be an answer to this year long debate. But this is just me stating how one thing she does makes me feel. It's really just a statement I don't expect her to change who she is or anything. She is she and I accept that. Just felt like throwing it out there.

NeonKaos

08-12-2010, 11:19 PM

The conversation has sort of moved on, hasn't it? I'm not sure if it makes sense to derail the tangent, which I think is more interesting and important than my specific complaint about your comment on the HMA thread. Or did you mean something else by that?

I meant this discussion in particular, not this thread in general. That is why I used the word "discussion" instead of the word "thread". I did use the latter initially and revised it to the former, in order to say what I really meant to say.

I was taking you at your word when you said you wanted to know in good faith how people could tell me that I am making an ass out of myself. Yes, the conversation has moved on, but I don't see that as being counter-productive to the original reason why I started this thread.

I don't think talking about the forum is "beating a dead horse" but I do think the question "what would you have us DO" is some kind of a rhetorical mobius-strip.

FormerUnicorn

08-13-2010, 05:05 AM

I'd just like to see a bit more diversity of views. Apparently making my views about that is "brow-beating". So be it. I have views and I post them. That's why I'm here. I really don't care if I'm liked or even listened to. But I do care about what other people who may come here seeking information see and read.

I'm a little late to the party, but I wanted to point out that the concept of a "welcoming atmosphere" is rather subjective. I think inclusivity is important too, and I understand what you're saying about marginalization, but I have a confession to make:

Your posts made me feel unwelcome. Judged. Like why should I even find this place good and constructive when it has so many obvious flaws.

It's just one of many, but here's the first post of yours that I read (Edited for brevity, not content):

I have generally abandoned this forum for a variety of reasons, but this thread was pointed back to me by a fellow sex educator. This right here is a huge sticking point with those who promote sex positivity.

The thinking HMA was describing as dead wrong is indeed dead wrong and here's why:

It is making a blanket statement that is full of assumptions about the motivations of other people. It is basically saying that those who engage in casual sex must have something wrong with them and that those who don't must be more reliable for relationships. This is an attempt to disguise something that is presented as fact (as erroneous and assumed as the fact may be) and trying to pass it off as opinion. It is exactly like saying "I feel polyamorous people are greedy, so I know poly relationships aren't right FOR ME" Or, "Bisexual people can't really make up their minds, so FOR ME it's not going to meet my needs to date them". For some reason, adding the "for me" is supposed to allow the person to claim that nobody can correct their erroneous and wrong way of thinking because it's their opinion and their feelings.

And quite frankly this overprotectiveness and need to protect such erroneous ways of thinking about the motivations of others is part of the culture that I decided to leave here.

Not sure if I'll be back to the forum, but I've done my bit for the sex educators.

I'm not challenging the validity of the points that you made here, but the tone in which you couch your distaste for the forum was one of the biggest turnoffs I have had to date from this site. Your overwhelming disgust for the forum that comes through here made me really wonder why you were even bothering to post--other than for the stated sex education reasons, which could have been accomplished with more credibility without all the ominous references to you leaving the forums.

I agree with whomever said you sounded bitter. This might not be the case, but it really does seem like you were burned by some experiences here. You might be happy to hear that your forum-negative viewpoint did make me look at this community very closely, holding it up to the accusations you put forward, and I think I'm even happier with the site because of that examination. I find that I feel good here, and safe, and that there is a lot of good that comes from this place not only for me but for many other people.

jkelly

08-13-2010, 07:39 AM

I think it's an interesting question when someone asks me how they should speak to me in order for their words to achieve the desired effect.

I do this IRL somtimes; it's like asking "Is there anything I can say that would make you change your mind?" in a disagreement. Sometimes it's helpful, because you might get around the idea that someone has to win the argument, and instead try to re-focus on moving things forward. Sometimes it isn't.

I was taking you at your word when you said you wanted to know in good faith how people could tell me that I am making an ass out of myself.

I appreciate that! I think starting a thread devoted to it was an interesting idea.

I don't think talking about the forum is "beating a dead horse" but I do think the question "what would you have us DO" is some kind of a rhetorical mobius-strip.

Nice analogy -- it looks like a tangle, but you only ever see one side. In this case, we (pretty much) only ever hear from people who are well-served by the forum (see the above), so the other side of the question doesn't really exist in the conversation. I still think it's worth trying to untangle the knot.

I don't like this "people" and "some people" parrying. I would like to see naming of names and quoting from messages with examples of "how such things play out". I am probably guilty of this too, without even realizing it, so please do me this courtesy. Please be specific, even if it means "embarrassing" me.

This can be really challenging. For one thing, as you mention, it often can feel like one is randomly picking on someone to call them out when it's really a larger pattern that's problematic, although I appreciate that you're offering here that people can do that with you. For another, as you noted in the childfree thread, it doesn't make a lot of sense to set oneself up as an "expert" on a marginalised group who should get the last word, even when you're a member of that group.

Ceoli

08-13-2010, 08:00 AM

I'm a little late to the party, but I wanted to point out that the concept of a "welcoming atmosphere" is rather subjective. I think inclusivity is important too, and I understand what you're saying about marginalization, but I have a confession to make:

Your posts made me feel unwelcome. Judged. Like why should I even find this place good and constructive when it has so many obvious flaws.

It's just one of many, but here's the first post of yours that I read (Edited for brevity, not content):

I'm not challenging the validity of the points that you made here, but the tone in which you couch your distaste for the forum was one of the biggest turnoffs I have had to date from this site. Your overwhelming disgust for the forum that comes through here made me really wonder why you were even bothering to post--other than for the stated sex education reasons, which could have been accomplished with more credibility without all the ominous references to you leaving the forums.

I agree with whomever said you sounded bitter. This might not be the case, but it really does seem like you were burned by some experiences here. You might be happy to hear that your forum-negative viewpoint did make me look at this community very closely, holding it up to the accusations you put forward, and I think I'm even happier with the site because of that examination. I find that I feel good here, and safe, and that there is a lot of good that comes from this place not only for me but for many other people.

It's fair enough not to like my tone or the way I post. That's not the issue.

And it's great that you find that this forum fits and meets your needs and fits and meets the needs of other people. That's not the issue either.

I've said that this forum is a fantastic place for a subset of the poly community. I'm merely pointing out that when this place is stated to be a haven, that it isn't always a haven and people do leave because of their experiences here. It seems reasonable to me to examine why such things might be happening. Other people disagree. I think jkelly summed it up very well.

No forum is ever going to be perfect. I think we can all agree on that. However, I find it interesting that by stating my thoughts and feelings about the culture of this forum it has engendered a kind of "digging the heels in" reaction. Fair enough. It seems people are becoming very protective of what is here and not wanting to adjust, change or grow it to be more inclusive. In community organizing, if people want to grow a community, you often have to look at who isn't at the table and why. I would think that an internet resource that would *like* to be a resource for people (as this forum seeks to be) would also look at who is being served and who isn't being served and why. It seems that it would be easier to just paint me as bitter and hateful as a reason to dismiss the concerns than to examine how to be more inclusive.

NeonKaos

08-13-2010, 12:26 PM

Nice analogy -- it looks like a tangle, but you only ever see one side. In this case, we (pretty much) only ever hear from people who are well-served by the forum (see the above), so the other side of the question doesn't really exist in the conversation. I still think it's worth trying to untangle the knot.

Let's start with this. I would like someone to explain to me how the following is not a paradox:

"Something should be done to make this forum more welcoming. People should be allowed to express themselves however they want."

I'm merely pointing out that when this place is stated to be a haven, that it isn't always a haven and people do leave because of their experiences here. It seems reasonable to me to examine why such things might be happening. Other people disagree. I think jkelly summed it up very well.

Are these "people who leave" expecting a "haven" when they come here? Perhaps this is too high of an expectation. I certainly don't consider this forum to be my haven, yet I have stayed here. I also do not fit with the stereotypical case-scenarios (couples opening their relationships, poly-mono relationships, etc.) of any of the groups that were described as "best served by this forum". I haven't been scared off by people putting down casual sex. Etc. It is just that I have thicker skin than the "people who leave"? I am not debating with you; you said it seems reasonable to examine this, so I'm trying to examine it.

I am still waiting for suggestions on what can be DONE about it. I can think of a few things that COULD be done, but the cure would be worse than the disease.

redpepper

08-13-2010, 06:23 PM

I would like to know exactly what the jist of the complaints is.

From what I gather its that there are people on here that are:

-firmly comfortable in their belief that poly-fi relationships are working for them,
-that struggling through mono/poly relationships is worth it to them,
-that being married or in a long term relationship is a reality for them and they consider that primary,
-or people that are not into casual sex and like to talk about their journey as to why and how they came to that realization.

Anything else I missed?

What is it about these people that is so offensive to some that they feel they can't bare talking to them? Is it that we are suppose to be in someway sorry? That we should in some way admit we are privileged and step aside? I don't get it.

When I personally don't want to debate who I am I just step away from a thread. If enough people do that, the discussion doesn't continue, end of story. How is that wrong or keeping people from coming here because of the atmosphere?

Its human nature to feel comfortable. Why would one out aside their comfort in the form of debating who they are to make someone else feel comfortable who is challenging them. Especially if that debate is uninvited. Its only natural to shut down and not engage at some point and I see nothing wrong with that survival tactic.

jkelly

08-13-2010, 06:46 PM

Let's start with this. I would like someone to explain to me how the following is not a paradox:

"Something should be done to make this forum more welcoming. People should be allowed to express themselves however they want."

I don't think that's quite as paradoxical as it might seem. Maybe nobody ever wants to express themselves in a way that pushes back against someone else's unwelcoming expression. If that's the case, then the problem you're pointing at is really hard to solve. But I suspect that there's a way in which some people might want to push back, but don't feel like they'd be supported, or would wind up in a useless back-and-forth.

Let me use an example. Over here (http://www.polyamory.com/forum/showpost.php?p=38646&postcount=12) I make a bunch of kind-of dumb, prejudicial statements about couples opening up a previously mono- relationship. So... I think I get to express that (although I wish I'd done a better job of thinking that one through now). This is not a great example, because I doubt anyone thinks that previously mono- couples who want to try being poly- are poorly served or marginalised here. Nevertheless, what I think probably should have happened is for someone to say "Hey, Jkelly, you're making a bunch of dumb, prejudicial statements. We shouldn't do that, because we don't want people who you are judging like that to feel unwelcome here." So that person is also expressing themselves however they want, but they're doing it in a way that supports being more welcoming.

Now, as I said, if there really isn't anyone who felt at all inspired to call me out on that, there's nothing much to be done. But... if that's not the case, and someone did want to say something to me but didn't, then I think we can look at why they felt like they shouldn't.

NeonKaos

08-13-2010, 07:07 PM

Let me use an example. Over here (http://www.polyamory.com/forum/showpost.php?p=38646&postcount=12) I make a bunch of kind-of dumb, prejudicial statements about couples opening up a previously mono- relationship. So... I think I get to express that (although I wish I'd done a better job of thinking that one through now). This is not a great example, because I doubt anyone thinks that previously mono- couples who want to try being poly- are poorly served or marginalised here. Nevertheless, what I think probably should have happened is for someone to say "Hey, Jkelly, you're making a bunch of dumb, prejudicial statements. We shouldn't do that, because we don't want people who you are judging like that to feel unwelcome here." So that person is also expressing themselves however they want, but they're doing it in a way that supports being more welcoming.

I believe this is what "we" (the forum mod staff) have been asking for, as it says, too, in the forum guidelines, and it is being interpreted as trying to limit the way people express themselves. The way I have understood the criticism(s) is that it ought to be acceptable to say "Fuck you, JKelly, and the high horse you rode in on", and that is still supposed to foster a "welcoming" and "inclusive" atmosphere.

Now, as I said, if there really isn't anyone who felt at all inspired to call me out on that, there's nothing much to be done. But... if that's not the case, and someone did want to say something to me but didn't, then I think we can look at why they felt like they shouldn't.

How do we know they wanted to say something but felt like they shouldn't? I can only speak for myself - I am not a mind-reader. Please explain to me how the part in quotes above is also not a paradox. I'll re-phrase it in generic terms:

"People should speak up so that we know there is a problem. If no one speaks up, there must be a problem".

Again, I am hard pressed to understand why you, Ceoli, myself, and others are able to manage this just fine when it comes to our interactions on here, yet these "people who leave" only send their disenchantment over here by proxy. Why can't the "people who leave" state their case first hand? Or not? The "people who leave" is such a nebulous concept. Do they all leave for the same reason? How are we supposed to know if they don't say something? People are allowed to lurk, and they do not NEED to have a "good" reason for "leaving".

Remember, a Mobius Strip does not have TWO sides. It has ONE CONTINUOUS side.

Ariakas

08-13-2010, 07:48 PM

Again, I am hard pressed to understand why you, Ceoli, myself, and others are able to manage this just fine when it comes to our interactions on here, yet these "people who leave" only send their disenchantment over here by proxy. Why can't the "people who leave" state their case first hand? Or not? The "people who leave" is such a nebulous concept. Do they all leave for the same reason? How are we supposed to know if they don't say something? People are allowed to lurk, and they do not NEED to have a "good" reason for "leaving".

Default answer - "they feel this won't be a safe and inclusive environment to express their concerns"

How do we fix that will be the other default response.

And really...you CAN'T be all inclusive to everyone. Fact of life. BBS's try and it just can't and will not happen. Once people realize that the better off everyone will be. I hit up other poly forums and feel excluded by default because I am not like the others. Their poly feels so totally different to mine (think political left and political right...), I don't feel like I can be included. It is the selfishness of having opinion, since none of this can be based on actual fact. People on that side see themselves as inclusive and loving and they aren't. How can THEY fix that...

set aside your attachment to poly as a pagan thing only, take out the religion and preaching and everything that makes it as much as religious movement as it is a relationship style. Attaching it, as a pre-requisite, to a religious movement makes me go all icky inside. Look at that, I am excluded by a group believed to be inclusive and warm.

I use this example because of the extreme of it. What can we do as a board to be more inclusive. I haven't seen anywhere where people have been exclusive, so I just don't know. I can only relate what Ceoli is saying to what I feel on other sites. They likely don't even know they are being exclusive to me. Automatically making me run for the hills. I know there are people here who have those religious beliefs, and I respect them, they don't voice their poly as religious movements. They are both pagan and poly. Thats awesome. Am I excluding someone by pointing that out?...

ok...now, I didn't bother posting saying I wasn't coming back. Why you ask, it was a meh moment. I didn't care enough to bother. Maybe thats what happened here.

So thats my take on what ceoli is saying. I can understand it, but can't figure out where this site is exclusive. Considering my overall differences with people here, I find it inviting and warm...

redsirenn

08-13-2010, 07:54 PM

It's fair enough not to like my tone or the way I post. That's not the issue.

And it's great that you find that this forum fits and meets your needs and fits and meets the needs of other people. That's not the issue either.

How is it not the issue? It seems to me, that it is the exact issue that you bring up again and again.

I think it is a waste of time to argue this issue in rebuttal after rebuttal without a clear list of suggestions in the form of actions that all people on this forum could take.

If I were to offer up my own, it would look something like this:

- take care to not hyjack posts
- read around and learn where to post and what is already posted
- respect differences in posters on the forum (differences of religion, opinions, ways to do poly, etc) even if you disagree
- offer constructive feedback or support
- refrain from obvious slander (in the codes of conduct)

I feel this forum does, for the most part fulfill this list. If anyone else could add clear, succinct, non-repetitive suggestions maybe that would be a constructive and respectful way to continue a discussion about this?

Again - the hyjacking of this thread is, I feel, a bit disrespectful. The repetition about this topic is not efficient and personally gives me a headache. It also makes me feel like what is the fucking point of pointing something out - thus feeling a bit unwelcome myself.

So - can I suggest to the mods to move this under the thread for forum suggestions ONLY if we can all attempt to do this in a clearer, more efficient way? Please?

That I feel would be progress.

RS

NeonKaos

08-13-2010, 08:16 PM

Default answer - "they feel this won't be a safe and inclusive environment to express their concerns"

How do we fix that will be the other default response.

This is the Rhetorical Mobius Strip™. I decree that from now on it must be referred to as such :cool:

And really...you CAN'T be all inclusive to everyone. Fact of life. BBS's try and People on that side see themselves as inclusive and loving and they aren't. How can THEY fix that...

I'll tell you how *I* fix it. I dislike everyone equally. :p

ok...now, I didn't bother posting saying I wasn't coming back. Why you ask, it was a meh moment. I didn't care enough to bother. Maybe thats what happened here.

So thats my take on what ceoli is saying. I can understand it, but can't figure out where this site is exclusive.

My "take" on it is that the "People Who Leave" are friends or acquaintances of Ceoli, either in real life, on other online venues, or both. For some reason, They would rather not use their own voices to speak Their minds, but instead are content to have Ceoli be Their mouthpiece. I believe in speaking up for those who CANNOT speak for themselves (such as abused children and animals), not those who CHOOSE not to speak for themselves (such as grown, presumably literate, humans with access to the internet).

Ariakas

08-13-2010, 08:23 PM

I'll tell you how *I* fix it. I dislike everyone equally. :p

But then you create the dreaded, everyone is equal. This may create jealousy with your followers who want you to love them more :p haha

NeonKaos

08-13-2010, 08:34 PM

But then you create the dreaded, everyone is equal. This may create jealousy with your followers who want you to love them more :p haha

They all dislike me equally too. We have an egalitarian hegemony.

i think it is a waste of time to argue this issue in rebuttal after rebuttal without a clear list of suggestions in the form of actions that all people on this forum could take.

this this this!!!!

So - can I suggest to the mods to move this under the thread for forum suggestions ONLY if we can all attempt to do this in a clearer, more efficient way? Please?

That I feel would be progress.

RS

Done. It's been added to the "Suggestions and feedback" thread.

Oh, and redsirenn, sugar pie? It's "hijack", not "hyjack". Are you ok with me telling you that, hon?

I'm JUST KIDDING around. I think rs can handle it!

AutumnalTone

08-13-2010, 08:43 PM

Again - the hyjacking of this thread is, I feel, a bit disrespectful. The repetition about this topic is not efficient and personally gives me a headache. It also makes me feel like what is the fucking point of pointing something out - thus feeling a bit unwelcome myself.

So - can I suggest to the mods to move this under the thread for forum suggestions ONLY if we can all attempt to do this in a clearer, more efficient way? Please?

YGirl appears to be complicit in the hijacking of the thread, so I'll leave it up to her as to whether to break it apart into separate threads.

NeonKaos

08-13-2010, 09:03 PM

YGirl appears to be complicit in the hijacking of the thread, so I'll leave it up to her as to whether to break it apart into separate threads.

At some point, we may attempt to compartmentalize posts from this thread. For the time being, it is viable to let things progress naturally.

With that in mind, I'm off to the campsite for the weekend. Anyone who is friends with me on Fakebook has my cell phone number, and it gets a good signal at the camp, so feel free to contact me if anything needs to be imploded.

redpepper

08-13-2010, 09:49 PM

The repetition about this topic is not efficient and personally gives me a headache. It also makes me feel like what is the fucking point of pointing something out - thus feeling a bit unwelcome myself.

So - can I suggest to the mods to move this under the thread for forum suggestions ONLY if we can all attempt to do this in a clearer, more efficient way? Please?

That I feel would be progress.

RS

This is what I am saying here, what makes people stop talking or engaging in a thread is that they aren't interested or they get their back up and don't see the point. Thank you Red for giving me an example. Sorry it's because you are legitimately getting a headache from all of this :)

As for moving these particular posts from here to "suggestions" I'm all for it, I think that is a better place for it. It's up to ygirl though as it's her thread and she can mod it herself anyways... (besides she is better at it than me). op, she's done it.... (having read ahead).

My "take" on it is that the "People Who Leave" are friends or acquaintances of Ceoli, either in real life, on other online venues, or both. For some reason, They would rather not use their own voices to speak Their minds, but instead are content to have Ceoli be Their mouthpiece. I believe in speaking up for those who CANNOT speak for themselves (such as abused children and animals), not those who CHOOSE not to speak for themselves (such as grown, presumably literate, humans with access to the internet).

ya, I think that some of the issue, is that some people came here, didn't like what people said to them, didn't like that some people objected to their approach and left in a huff and decided to bad mouth a forum that didn't suit their needs when it clearly suits others... why they can't leave that alone and find their own peeps to hang with, all with a "meh, they are doing find and so are we" kind of attitude, I don't know...

I wonder if they are used to a certain type/style of expression and a poly within that. There is a large mix of people here that challenge a person that engages in certain activities just by telling their own story. Perhaps they decided to remove themselves and chalk us up to being exclusive because of their own discomfort in getting to know something different to their reality; rather than looking at their own exclusivity and be curious about others?

I wonder if perhaps its more to do with a type of individual who enjoys this forum or not rather than about exclusivity and marginalization.

I admire your tenacity Ceoli, if in fact Ygirl is right. I think it's great that you attempt to make the world a better place for those who struggle to speak for themselves, grown ups (etc.) or not.

I find it a shame however, and again, if what ygirl says is true, that instead of advocating for them to expand their minds and reach out to see what is out there in the poly world, you have chosen to close your own and continue to pursue a goal that is just as exclusive and marginalizing as you think we all are.

I thought everyone should know that I do in fact judge people. You know I mean it because I didn't put the word "judge" in quotes. WEll, yes I did just there, but not before...

I agree, I think we all judge. It's human nature to do so, it helps us find our place in the world... by judging we create our own self worth and self eteem.

What needs to happen next I think is to consider what we do with that judgment. I think we owe it to the world as a whole to work towards it being a better place... for me doing that means taking my judgment, looking at every aspect of it, pulling it a part and then creating acceptance and admiration for differences.

This is a long process sometimes, it's not always evident that I am there yet, but I am consciously aware that I am going through this process and ask for patience to get there... We have a whole life time of this kind of process I think. There is no rush and I think it should always be respected that others are going through it too.

ygirl, I have found that you are judgmental, but I also find that you get to the same place I do, perhaps by the same means, perhaps not, but you get there.... I am warmed to you for that reason.

I'm off to the campsite for the weekend. Anyone who is friends with me on Fakebook has my cell phone number, and it gets a good signal at the camp, so feel free to contact me if anything needs to be imploded.

Have fun! :)

jkelly

08-14-2010, 12:17 AM

This is a busy thread!

What is it about these people that is so offensive to some that they feel they can't bare talking to them? Is it that we are suppose to be in someway sorry? That we should in some way admit we are privileged and step aside? I don't get it.

I don't think it's quite so straightforward as that. But yeah, there are offensive things, and there are things we should be sorry about, and there are also probably times when people should step aside.

Sometimes someone says something that I genuinely find offensive. And I may say "Hey, that's offensive" or I might not. I'm not offended by the fact that people who disagree with me exist! I'm offended by something in particular that was expressed. Now, if someone were to come around here and say a bunch of really weird, nasty things about poly- people, I'd get a lot of support for saying "Hey, that's offensive!", right?

But that's not always the case. People can say a bunch of really weird, nasty things about other groups of people, and I wouldn't get a lot of support for saying "Hey, that's offensive!". I think that's obvious... but maybe I need examples here? I'm worried that examples would get in the way, because then we'd get into a discussion about whether saying any particular weird, nasty thing was "actually" offensive or not.

So yes, sometimes people should be sorry. For instance, I'm sorry that I made some weird prejudicial comments about couples opening up a mono- relationship. I think Ygirl should be sorry for making some weird prejudicial comments about people who work as strippers. But, sorry or not, we all have dumb prejudicial ideas that we express from time to time, and that's not a huge problem as long as they don't just go unchallenged. When they do go unchallenged, the environment becomes one in which those groups of people are going to feel alienated and unwelcome.

Which leads me to the stepping aside thing. Remember when you and I were first talking about the issue about younger poly- people being marginalised? One of the better things to come out of that conversation was the idea that people who feel marginalised should be deliberately encouraged to have their voices listened to, whether that be through actively setting up a space to discuss their concerns the way that you did in your community, or through encouraging them in leadership as I suggested. Sometimes doing that means deliberately cultivating some uncomfortable dissenting voices, and sometimes it means just, you know, listening for a while (or "stepping aside"), instead of using the social capital we have to shut down the conversations.

-firmly comfortable in their belief that poly-fi relationships are working for them

Incidentally, I thought it was odd that polyfi- people got lumped into the 'well-represented' camp, since I haven't experienced a lot of polyfi- people speaking up here (in fact, here's a thread (http://www.polyamory.com/forum/showthread.php?t=3440) where a polyfi- person is expressing that they feel like a minority n this forum).

jkelly

08-14-2010, 01:29 AM

The way I have understood the criticism(s) is that it ought to be acceptable to say "Fuck you, JKelly, and the high horse you rode in on", and that is still supposed to foster a "welcoming" and "inclusive" atmosphere.

Well, for the record, I'd like to think I'd respond reasonably well to someone saying that. I'll grant that if a bunch of people with fancy forum titles all said it together, though, I'd probably feel more unwelcome.

Erm... that's not to suggest that fancy forum titles are a problem. I was just using that as shorthand for people who have more social capital than other people.

Anyway, I'm not all that clear about the 'politeness' aspect of this conversation. I get that you and Ceoli think that there's something about politeness that's important to the discussion, but I'll admit that I'm missing out on what's going on with that.

Again, I am hard pressed to understand why you, Ceoli, myself, and others are able to manage this just fine when it comes to our interactions on here, yet these "people who leave" only send their disenchantment over here by proxy.

Not to speak for Ceoli, but it's not clear to me that she's "manage[d] just fine", as she's expressed some pretty serious ambivalence about participating. In case anyone's confused about it, I think that's troublesome, because I think she's a particularly valuable contributor.

I'm loathe to speculate about what you, Ceoli and I have in common, as I don't really know either of the two of you.

I don't have any contact with any "people who leave"; my questioning is more about why this forum bears so little resemblance to my experience, or the offline poly- communities I'm familiar with, why it's rough on people who don't quite fit in, and about the lack of diversity I perceive in it. To be honest, I'd be hesitant to recommend this forum to poly- newbies I meet, and I think that's disappointing. Of course, that opens up the question of why I'm hesitant, and I'm not entirely clear on how to answer that, other than that it doesn't bear much resemblance to my experience, etc.

Ilove2men

08-14-2010, 02:20 AM

Coming out of lurker mode, maybe it would help to know who exactly is feeling excluded. We can't actually ask those who left and have not spoken up to the reasons why. We could have an I have left the building and here's why thread, but I can see that turning into a conflict thread easily when someone is leaving because of specific members. Maybe Ceoli can shed some light by listing those who she thinks are feeling excluded or unwelcomed. Maybe a welcome thread with a well written original post can help for the welcoming part, but that's kind of what the introductions are about, no?

redpepper

08-14-2010, 07:01 AM

Ya, sometimes its important to step aside and listen. I get that jkelly. If someone is not getting that though, should it not be that others then suggest that they step aside? In the spirit of honesty and openess, that is, or is it not worth that much to people that they bother? After all, people come and go on here all the time. Why would anyone bother reminding others that they might learn something if they step aside when there will be a whole new load of people in a week or so. Besides, should we not also expect the same thing? For people to step aside for us? Maybe those who need others to step aside should also ask for that too. I can see that people who come here might not always feel listened to. HMA certainly didn't. I know I haven't listened before, especially when I've felt like I've had my back against a wall. Maybe I need a thicker skin in those instances? Probably. I know several people who would agree to that actually. Interesting! Thanks for giving me something to think about jkelly! :)

I don't really recommend this forum to others either. I think most people don't want to talk about their stuff on the whole. At the very most it seems they prefer to talk with others in person. They just muddle through and stuff happens or it doesn't. People more often than not just want to live life rather than analyse it and discuss it with others it seems. Imagine how many poly people are out there if we poly people who like to talk about stuff, are just a small drop in the pan.

Karma

08-14-2010, 08:39 AM

My take, as a very blunt person myself - even my friends tell me I'm an asshole at times -

If people can't handle the blunt, non-sugar coated truth, fuck 'em. That's their issue and their inability to deal with reality - either the reality of the situation, or the reality that the actions they are taking are portraying them in that particular light.

None of that is your fault. Some people are too weak to be able to deal with the truth without safety gloves and training wheels. The rest of us are what I like to refer to as 'adults'.

Ceoli

08-14-2010, 03:13 PM

But, sorry or not, we all have dumb prejudicial ideas that we express from time to time, and that's not a huge problem as long as they don't just go unchallenged. When they do go unchallenged, the environment becomes one in which those groups of people are going to feel alienated and unwelcome.

This sums it up very nicely. Thank you, jkelly, for articulating my view so well and for bringing this conversation right into the issues at hand without being personal.

This generally feels like place that prefers prejudicial and marginalizing statements go unchallenged in order to create a safe feeling space. What tends to happen here is that when prejudicial statements do get challenged, it is often met with a whole lot of resistance and unnecessary drama. This can sometimes make it seem like the choice is to let such statements of prejudice go unchallenged or beat one's head against a wall. People who feel on the other side of those prejudicial statements tend to get extra signals that when they are feeling marginalized, it's not a legitimate feeling to have. Jkelly has offered some great insights about how that works and how people can shift how they see such challenges. This is the overprotectiveness I was referring to in my quote that FormerUnicorn posted on this thread.

There are all sorts of statements in this thread speaking to what my motivations are, how bitter I am, the fact that I bring this up over and over again (I brought this up in one other thread- a thread by a person who left that was about this very topic). I continued to discuss it in that thread for as long as people were discussing it. I raised it again in this thread only as a response to a statement that I felt wasn't encompassing the whole picture. I felt it important to acknowledge that the safe little bubble of trust that people have been working to build here does have a cost. I prefer to examine that for the sake of being able to expand that bubble.

For the person who has decided that it's a bunch of personal friends of mine that I'm referring to when I talk about people who have left the forum, I have one personal friend who left the forum and she didn't leave because she felt marginalized. She left because she felt it was useless to have these kinds of conversations with people who continually resist them. In other words, she chose to not bother beating her head against a wall. I certainly took a break from it myself. The other people I know of that no longer post here are people who I got to know through the forum but have never personally met. Some of them I am still in touch with. They did feel marginalized by the culture of this forum.

I find it interesting that there is some direction in this thread to make this about me rather than about the issues I'm raising. This is another example of how one can marginalize others when they bring up issues. Personally, such things do not make me want to leave. While they can be frustrating and ridiculous, I choose to not let such things affect my choice to post here or not. However, I can see how this would make someone feel unwelcome, or at least their point of view to feel unwelcome.

I had to think twice about posting my perspective and how I honestly felt because I was pretty sure that it would be met with resistance, dismissal, frustration, exasperation , speculations about my "agenda", lots of questioning of my motives and the legitimacy of my point of view on the part of many replies. I thought twice not because I felt that my views should be unchallenged, but because I sensed that my views would be unwelcome.

Sometimes doing that means deliberately cultivating some uncomfortable dissenting voices, and sometimes it means just, you know, listening for a while (or "stepping aside"), instead of using the social capital we have to shut down the conversations.

I feel this is the crux of the conversation. It could very well be that this would prefer to be a community that doesn't cultivate uncomfortable dissenting voices. It may have a limited tolerance for them, but my general sense is that this community tends to value these voices not being there.

anotherbo

08-14-2010, 10:21 PM

I'm a very new member here, and the last thing I would want to do (or be able to do ;) ) is marginalize anybody. And I'm hoping to say the following without getting into a brawl.

Ceoli: On some of your earlier posts in this thread, the bitter and attacking tone (as it seemed to me) made it hard for me to swallow your admittedly interesting and useful points. In contrast, your last post made it very easy for me to absorb and agree with things you were saying.

I am a person who really enjoys talking about hard, devisive issues, personal as well as political, religious, etc. But I've found that if I am not careful to use a non-threatening tone, I often end up in a fight, when what I really wanted was a discussion.

When people say "I tell it like it is!", I often feel they'd be more accurate to say, "Sometimes I just like to let somebody have it in the face... if I have something useful to say while doing so, it makes it easier to feel good about it."

So to me, "tone" is more about how to get what you want. If you're looking for a discussion, don't use your points to attack someone. If you're looking for a fight, fire away.

Side note: I particularly love when people call others a wimp for sugarcoating, or not wanting to take their medicine straight. Though I sugercoat often, and would prefer to be addressed with respect, I personally love a fight, with words or fists. I haven't struck anyone in anger in nearly 2 decades, but I can still remember from high school and college the amazingly satisfying feel of landing a devastating blow on somebody who is trying to beat the shit out of you.

The reason I seldom fight like that now is the same reason I'm not interested nowadays in casual sex: it sidetracks me, and makes it harder to get the things I really want, out of a discussion or relationship.

Not to judge anybody who DOES just want a fight, or a quick fuck: I've been there, and I won't be surprised if I'm there again sometime in the future. ;)

Anotherbo :)

Oh P.S. I also thought that quote by Jkelly was a great summation.

Ceoli

08-14-2010, 10:44 PM

Ceoli: On some of your earlier posts in this thread, the bitter and attacking tone (as it seemed to me) made it hard for me to swallow your admittedly interesting and useful points. In contrast, your last post made it very easy for me to absorb and agree with things you were saying.

I would say that my firsts two posts about this were pretty frank. I can see how that can be read as bitter and attacking, but that was not the sentiment I was posting from. I just felt the need to be absolutely clear about my view on it. Having been around the block on this topic I probably skipped right to that frank tone because I suspected that it wouldn't be listened to anyway. Either way, I'm posting from my point of view and perspective, which is an earned perspective. However, when replies started to be about me, my agenda and my hatefulness, I'm sure that additionally steered the tone.

There are plenty of people who have expressed dislike for my tone in general on this forum. Having different preferences for how people like to hear things is perfectly reasonable. However, there are many times when that dislike of tone includes a certain pressure to be silent. I generally don't allow myself to be silenced by that, which probably causes frustration on all ends. But it runs counter to my values to edit my communication to be less authentic than it is.

Just a few musings about concern over my tone. No real conclusions there.

redpepper

08-15-2010, 12:04 AM

Incidentally, I thought it was odd that polyfi- people got lumped into the 'well-represented' camp, since I haven't experienced a lot of polyfi- people speaking up here (in fact, here's a thread (http://www.polyamory.com/forum/showthread.php?t=3440) where a polyfi- person is expressing that they feel like a minority n this forum).

I am trying to say that that is the assumption rather than what actually is. I agree, there is not a lot of strictly poly-fi people on here. There are some that practice poly-fi with certain relationships, but I haven't known many to be completely fluid bonded in a poly-fi situation.

My take, as a very blunt person myself - even my friends tell me I'm an asshole at times -

If people can't handle the blunt, non-sugar coated truth, fuck 'em. That's their issue and their inability to deal with reality - either the reality of the situation, or the reality that the actions they are taking are portraying them in that particular light.

None of that is your fault. Some people are too weak to be able to deal with the truth without safety gloves and training wheels. The rest of us are what I like to refer to as 'adults'.

yet, asshole that your friends claim you to be,,, I can still swallow what you say to me personally and be your friend... I think because you show vulnerability and feeling in what you say. Yes you get pissed off, and are blunt, but you show your humanness in that you show that you also are not perfect. thank you for that... :) *hugs*

Ilove2men

08-15-2010, 12:15 AM

We have actually settled into a completely poly fi relationship. So there's at least one set.

Karma

08-15-2010, 12:03 PM

Thanks, Pepper. It's been a rough night, that made me smile. :)

Breathesgirl

08-15-2010, 12:41 PM

Ya know, there are many different reasons for people to leave groups and fora.

It didn't meet their needs being the top one IMO.
The mods/owners couldn't/wouldn't step in & fix a problem before OR after a thread became a full blown pissing match. I left a yahell group for this reason.
They no longer have the time to give it the attention they feel it needs.

It doesn't have to be all about whether a person, or persons, was being mean to them, perceived excusionism, etc. etc.

How did this get to be about why people leave fora any way? I thought this was a place to vent if we felt Ygirl stepped out of line in a post instead of hijacking the post in question.

That said if I feel that someone has stepped out of line, was mean in what they said or I question the meaning or intent behind the words I pm them, ask what's going on, if I'm reading the words correctly. Let's face it, the written word is a wonderful thing but it is very limited because we can only see the words, we can't see the facial expressions and body language or hear the tone of voice in order to accurately decipher what was truly meant by those words.

NeonKaos

08-15-2010, 08:25 PM

I think Ygirl should be sorry for making some weird prejudicial comments about people who work as strippers. But, sorry or not, we all have dumb prejudicial ideas that we express from time to time, and that's not a huge problem as long as they don't just go unchallenged. When they do go unchallenged, the environment becomes one in which those groups of people are going to feel alienated and unwelcome.

These were not "weird prejudicial comments". They were empirical observations. I have known strippers with drug problems and strippers without drug problems. I have worked for "escort services". I know what kind of money strippers are capable of making. I happen to have a little more experience in these areas than I care to go into detail about. I never said that "all people who work as strippers are a certain way." Here is what I said:

That reminds me - strippers make pretty good money. Something doesn't make sense with three strippers living in the same house and "finances" are an issue. Furthermore, there are plenty of places in Las Vegas that cost like $100 a week for short-term housing. Strippers make that much in one HOUR.

What is wrong with this picture? What are you folks REALLY in denial about? If I had to go out on a limb, I would suspect that someone has a drug problem.

If you're taking off your clothes for FREE while people watch, you are not a "stripper", you are an "exhibitionist". "Stripper" is a JOB DESCRIPTION, JOBS pay MONEY. If you do something for FUN, it's a HOBBY, not a JOB.

Sorry, I'm NOT sorry. I still mean it.

ETA: I am sorry I ever responded to HMA's thread at ALL, since it was obviously intended to solicit validation, not "ideas".

NeonKaos

08-15-2010, 08:45 PM

For the person who has decided that it's a bunch of personal friends of mine that I'm referring to when I talk about people who have left the forum, I have one personal friend who left the forum and she didn't leave because she felt marginalized. She left because she felt it was useless to have these kinds of conversations with people who continually resist them. In other words, she chose to not bother beating her head against a wall. I certainly took a break from it myself. The other people I know of that no longer post here are people who I got to know through the forum but have never personally met. Some of them I am still in touch with. They did feel marginalized by the culture of this forum.

I'm "the person who has decided" that. This is what I said:

My "take" on it is that the "People Who Leave" are friends or acquaintances of Ceoli, either in real life, on other online venues, or both. For some reason, They would rather not use their own voices to speak Their minds, but instead are content to have Ceoli be Their mouthpiece.

Please explain to me how what I said is any different from what you said. I have highlighted in color the similarities. You basically just repeated back what I said, putting a different spin on it. All I did differently than what you did is that I didn't draw a distinction in my post between "People Who Leave" for one reason versus "People Who Leave" for another reason.

And before you get on me about the last sentence in that quote - ALL IT SAYS is that they are "content" to let you do all the talking. NOWHERE does it ASSume that they ASKED you to speak on their behalf.

NeonKaos

08-15-2010, 09:01 PM

How did this get to be about why people leave fora any way? I thought this was a place to vent if we felt Ygirl stepped out of line in a post instead of hijacking the post in question.

A tangent got started because of something I said, and I have decided that it is worthwhile to have this discussion, and that is is not counter-productive to the original stated purpose of the thread.

I feel that by starting a thread and inviting criticism on myself personally, that this is like inviting people into my back-yard to chat around a bonfire. Since an online venue will not result in physical injury or collateral damage, or any other eventuality that might result in the police getting involved and/or criminal charges being filed, some of the reservations I might have about ACTUALLY inviting a bunch of strangers onto my property in Real Life are irrelevant here.

Again, all I ask is that if you say "Fuck you", please give us something to work with in addition to that.. Telling me "Fuck you" just for the hell of it - congratulations, I'm real happy for you, using big words and shit - by itself doesn't accomplish anything.

NeonKaos

08-15-2010, 09:10 PM

Not to speak for Ceoli, but it's not clear to me that she's "manage[d] just fine", as she's expressed some pretty serious ambivalence about participating. In case anyone's confused about it, I think that's troublesome, because I think she's a particularly valuable contributor.

When I said "just fine" I meant that she is quite capable of articulating her views without any help from the rest of us. I am not "confused" by that; I, too think she is a valuable contributor. I am also proud to consider her my friend, and I will go out on a limb and say that I suspect the feeling is mutual.

GroundedSpirit

08-15-2010, 10:26 PM

................. Of course, that opens up the question of why I'm hesitant, and I'm not entirely clear on how to answer that, other than that it doesn't bear much resemblance to my experience, etc.

I think this kind of cuts to the heart of this (hijacked) thread.
Most opinions people hold are solely based on their personal experience or occasionally someone close to them.
But it's a big wide world out there (here?) and it's proven generally more beneficial to listen rather than talk until you have sufficient evidence you've covered the greater portion of that wide world.
Things only get better via learning & understanding.
We may still choose to agree to disagree. Other may chose to walk paths that we choose not to.

But in keeping with the request someone made (and offered) about suggestions I would just toss out a couple simple basic ones......

1> Try to keep our comments relative to the OP and Original Thread. Be careful what you say that may (either intentionally or not) become a hijack.

2> Leave your personal agendas at home UNLESS they have direct applicability to the OP and OT. It's an open forum and everyone is free to start a new thread to solicit comments on their agenda if they desire. You may get feedback, agreement, disagreement, approval or disapproval. Be open minded and learn from it.

GS

redpepper

08-15-2010, 10:41 PM

Having read and learned from this thread of ygirls... I think for me it boils down to three things; that GS kind of pointed out above..

This forum, for poly people, is about:

listening
learning
understanding

Fidelia

08-15-2010, 10:51 PM

ETA: I am sorry I ever responded to HMA's thread at ALL, since it was obviously intended to solicit validation, not "ideas".

FWIW, that was my assessment of that thread. At least by the time I got to it.

Ceoli

08-15-2010, 11:52 PM

Please explain to me how what I said is any different from what you said. I have highlighted in color the similarities. You basically just repeated back what I said, putting a different spin on it. All I did differently than what you did is that I didn't draw a distinction in my post between "People Who Leave" for one reason versus "People Who Leave" for another reason.

I never said that it was different than what you said. I was clarifying and verifying.

And before you get on me about the last sentence in that quote - ALL IT SAYS is that they are "content" to let you do all the talking. NOWHERE does it ASSume that they ASKED you to speak on their behalf.

I think there's a subtle distinction between speaking on other people's behalf and raising issues that I see that other people have also talked about with me. There's a reason I'm not listing names. It's because I'm not speaking for them. I'm speaking of my experience and how it forms my views and some of that experience involves talking and chatting with people who have felt pushed out and unwelcome by the culture here. Since that mirrors some of my experience here it seems relevant. And I brought that up here as a response to statements that suggested that this forum doesn't do that.

NeonKaos

08-16-2010, 04:31 AM

I never said that it was different than what you said. I was clarifying and verifying.

I think there's a subtle distinction between speaking on other people's behalf and raising issues that I see that other people have also talked about with me. There's a reason I'm not listing names. It's because I'm not speaking for them. I'm speaking of my experience and how it forms my views and some of that experience involves talking and chatting with people who have felt pushed out and unwelcome by the culture here. Since that mirrors some of my experience here it seems relevant. And I brought that up here as a response to statements that suggested that this forum doesn't do that.

OK, just wanted to make sure we were on the same page.

This discussion is now in its own thread.

AutumnalTone

08-16-2010, 05:24 AM

I agree, there is not a lot of strictly poly-fi people on here. There are some that practice poly-fi with certain relationships, but I haven't known many to be completely fluid bonded in a poly-fi situation.

I'd say we have no way of knowing how many of the people who have posted are currently in poly-fi tangles. It's not germane to many of the situations discussed. We read tales of A, who is involved with X and Y, for example--and without any mention of whether the arrangement includes fluid-bonding or not or whether it's open or closed because that part of the situation isn't germane to the problems they're encountering. I do recall folks mentioning that they have their V or triad or whatever and that's all they want, which suggests a strong possibility of a poly-fi arrangement.

LovingRadiance

08-16-2010, 05:37 AM

We were strictly poly-fi until I had to suddenly leave state.
I opened the door to Maca to be with another woman who isn't part of our poly-fi V because we were looking at an undefined time apart (anywhere from 2-12 months).

The 11 months prior-we were poly-fi and the 12 years prior to that, even though it was "cheating", we were the three of us fidelitious together. Just didn't know what the hell poly was.

:rolleyes:

LovingRadiance

08-16-2010, 05:38 AM

And while I'm at, we are all 3 fluid bonded-and not fluid-bonded with "her".

jkelly

08-19-2010, 10:11 PM

I'm going to try to keep this short enough to not be a hassle to read.

For you to claim that somehow all swingers are being maligned when the discussion has only mentioned a *very specific sub-group* that nobody has claimed is very large is nonsensical, unconstructive, and somewhat rude (as it paints those of us involved as somehow being "anti-swinger").

I'm not sure how to take this critique. I could, for example, write that "I really dislike those people who use poly as a cover for being unable to make up their minds and settle down into one relationship." It would make perfect sense for someone to point out that what I wrote was maligning poly- people. I could then respond "Oh no, but I only meant a very specific sub-group", but really... that's a kind of weak rhetorical dodge. Maybe I had some sort of point there somewhere, but it's pretty reasonable for the reader to think that I've got some weird ideas about poly- people after reading that.

But let's say that I don't have weird ideas. If someone was then to say, "Hey, that's not an accurate description of what being poly- is, and it sounds like you're slagging the way that poly- people do relationships.", what should my response be? Should it be "You shouldn't say that to me, because being accused of being anti-poly is rude!" or should it be "Oh... that's not how I meant it; what I want to convey is [for example] that I wish people would always be clear when what they're really looking for is a monogamous relationship down the road, but are right now just dating around."

I think it should be the latter. The former just shuts down the conversation. Incidentally, I wonder if this relates to Ceoli's point about politeness, which I was still wondering about.

It's much the same as when YGirl mentioned the possibility of a stripper having a drug problem--you castigated her for maligning strippers when she did no such thing. You didn't respond to what she actually stated, you responded to a notion that *nobody* had stated while trying to assign her responsibility for stating it. That's just not cricket.

Alright, assuming that we agree about the following:

*There exist within our culture damaging stereotypes about strippers.
*Repeating these damaging stereotypes perpetuates them.
*Perpetuating these stereotypes leads to more damage, as it normalizes them and teaches them to people who may not have been exposed to them.
*We should not do that, unless we think that damaging strippers is a good idea.

...that leaves us with the question of whether or not YGirl's post did that. You presumably agree with YGirl that it didn't. I disagree, and stated so. So... the question then becomes whether or not it is "cricket" for me to express disagreement with you and YGirl.

So, again, I'll ask that you respond to what was actually stated and not something else. Or if you do respond to something else, make it clear that you're not responding to any statement actually made.

Well, you can ask that, but I'm not sure that I accept the premise that the author (or any individual person) has final say over what "was actually stated". When we communicate, we don't do so with perfect fidelity to our intent, and I strongly believe that we as authors need to acknowledge that a reader is going to have to perform an interpretive act in every reading.

Which is not to say that there's no such thing as a... um, "tendentious reading", which I think is what I'm actually being accused of. It's possible to deliberately miscontrue what someone is communicating in such a way as to make them sound like a bad person. I can assert all I want that I'm not doing that, but that's hardly going to change anyone's mind if bad faith is being assumed.

That said, in an attempt to address the "tendentious reading" idea, I'd say "expressing dumb, prejudicial ideas" doesn't make someone a bad person, as I think that we all do it. When I do it, I want it to be pointed out, because I think part of the project of being a member of a diverse community is ridding oneself of these ideas, which are often invisible to us.

Ceoli

08-20-2010, 09:50 AM

It's much the same as when YGirl mentioned the possibility of a stripper having a drug problem--you castigated her for maligning strippers when she did no such thing. You didn't respond to what she actually stated, you responded to a notion that *nobody* had stated while trying to assign her responsibility for stating it. That's just not cricket.

It's entirely reasonable to notice that suggesting the possibility of a stripper having a drug problem is something that is driven by and perpetuates a stereotype. If the person in question had been, say, a school teacher or a nurse or something, I doubt drugs would have been a possibility brought up for the issues that were being talked about in that thread.

But as jkelly mentions in his response, I'm not entirely clear why it's "not cricket" to have an opposing point of view and disagreement on this matter.

NeonKaos

08-20-2010, 12:15 PM

If the person in question had been, say, a school teacher or a nurse or something, I doubt drugs would have been a possibility brought up for the issues that were being talked about in that thread.

If the person in question had been, say, a pharmacist or a doctor or something, then I might also have suspected a drug problem. Is that perpetuating a negative stereotype about medical professionals?

I do not appreciate that my remarks have been taken out of context. Your responses and JKelly's also fail to address the fact that I have worked in this business and seen with my very own eyes these "negative stereotypes" play themselves out. I have acknowledged that not all people employed in this sector fit this stereotype. Indeed, we all fit stereotypes at various times in our lives, and one stereotype here and another there do not define who we are as individuals. I was referring to a very specific situation of three strippers living in the same house and having no money. Where is all the money going? I suggested one possibility. This was all because various people were suggesting that one of the roommates move out as being the solution to the OP's problem. I was not making a speech out of nowhere about my feelings regarding strippers in general.

If you guys can't GET that, and if you insist on being deliberately obtuse and on spinning my comment to suit your own agenda(s), then I sincerely do not want to converse with either one of you anymore. It seems that you want me to be "sorry" for what I said. Well, I'm sorry you don't like what I said.

Rarechild

08-20-2010, 09:39 PM

All, I have been very quiet as of late due to my busy schedule this summer. I do get on the site everyday and do mod stuff if needed. I have time to read 2-3 new threads/ posts, I look for sneaky spam to zap while skimming through the rest of it.

The mods discuss stuff off-forum, every message that is sent to a mod, every reported thread, every little thing that is brought to our attention is discussed and seconded at least unless it is egregious and in those cases we act pending discussion. If there is a question, we address it. This along with conference calls occasionally across many timezones is the job of moderators. Many of the mods do much more than I when it comes to responding to forum issues, user issues, questions of development and what would be the best decision to make in any given situation with the information we have, including forum rules and feedback from members.

That's as far as our job as culture-setters goes. I agree with those that have said that the membership leads the culture and one of the reasons that we penalize the little we do; to facilitate what I experience as a place where the burden is on the individual to explore something with a measure of decency and honesty. Posters with veiled intentions are easy to spot, and on this I would like to say that I have also felt the shift to a more mature forum recently as well. People who engage a lot develop better communication, and greater debating skills. In my opinion, those who feel intimidated should walk straight toward that fear because it's a sign that your brain is aroused to something you want to understand.

This thread is evidence of the fact that no one here walks away from a hard question.

There are so many points to respond to that I don't know where to begin weighing in. This forum is part of my life, I make time for it, I benefit as much as I give just like everything else in my life.

I find communities that actively reject marginalized people to be rather dysfunctional. Since this is a site that falls highly in google searches, it strikes me that there are ways it can be a bit more responsible about examining how welcoming it really is.

As of now, this is a great site for mono couples opening their relationship, strongly couple-centric ways of practicing poly and the general poly-fi model. There are all sorts of ways that these models take up the most space and generally don't leave much space for others. This happens in all sorts of subtle ways that people can either examine or not. If people see that as a fiction I'm weaving or as being over-senstitive, that's fine. If this site is happy with where it is, then great. But it would not be true to say that this site is the place to go for everyone who is struggling. There are many struggling people who would not feel welcome here. There are definitely other sites where alternative voices have more weight. This isn't one of them. It would just be nice if those sites googled as high as this one, then people who are new to poly that approach it in other ways wouldn't be put off.

Ceoli, your google talk set off my spam spidey sense. I have read and read and read your words, and still I haven't grasped what you mean when you say "actively reject marginalized people" You can start a thread and talk about anything you want to. I find it ridiculous to read about subtleties from you when you are constantly throwing shit at the forum. You are free to respond to or create discussion about anything.
-R

PS- please don't "translate" what I've written.

NeonKaos

08-21-2010, 01:30 AM

RC, what is this "spam spidey sense" that you speak of?

Rarechild

08-21-2010, 06:56 AM

Just a little heavy on the brand names. I am jaded, I admit, but it bothers me to talk about the structure of our forum in relation to search engines. A reality for sure, but creepy when making a case for a community.

All mods including myself do not benefit from search engine rankings. We are VOLUNTEERS.

NeonKaos

08-21-2010, 02:18 PM

All mods including myself do not benefit from search engine rankings. We are VOLUNTEERS.

I don't think that's what Ceoli meant. I think she meant that this forum has assumed some sort of higher social responsibility due to the fact that it has the ".com" suffix and is one of the top search results when someone googles "polyamory". I don't think she meant that the moderation staff personally benefits from the google-search rankings.

The former seems to suggest that people will become turned-off to the "polyamory lifestyle" or get the "wrong" idea about it from this forum, thereby causing false assumptions and stereotypes to be projected on to all the other polyamorous people who don't agree with things that have been posted on here.

For example, someone might read this thread and think that I hate strippers and that I think they are all liars and drug addicts, and that that will imply that all polyamorous people everywhere are "anti-stripper", and that this forum is non-inclusive and unwelcoming toward all people who work as strippers, and that we are marginalizing adult-entertainment workers, and that there are "people who leave" because the moderators here have that kind of attitude.

(which, if anyone reads my posts, could not be further from the reality of the situation)

Rarechild

08-21-2010, 08:31 PM

I don't think that's what Ceoli meant. I think she meant that this forum has assumed some sort of higher social responsibility due to the fact that it has the ".com" suffix and is one of the top search results when someone googles "polyamory". I don't think she meant that the moderation staff personally benefits from the google-search rankings.

The former seems to suggest that people will become turned-off to the "polyamory lifestyle" or get the "wrong" idea about it from this forum, thereby causing false assumptions and stereotypes to be projected on to all the other polyamorous people who don't agree with things that have been posted on here.

For example, someone might read this thread and think that I hate strippers and that I think they are all liars and drug addicts, and that that will imply that all polyamorous people everywhere are "anti-stripper", and that this forum is non-inclusive and unwelcoming toward all people who work as strippers, and that we are marginalizing adult-entertainment workers, and that there are "people who leave" because the moderators here have that kind of attitude.

(which, if anyone reads my posts, could not be further from the reality of the situation)

I know that implication wasn't really there, just the whole thing struck me the wrong way and I meant to emphasize the limitations of moderation and the reality (my view of reality) that a complaint about free exchange and discrimination not backed by action is tinny at best. We are not running a corporation.

Sorry, but this kind of discussion turns me right off so I'll bow out. I'm more interested in meaningful exchange than political-type parrying personally, and that's what I'm looking for in my own experience here.

NeonKaos

08-22-2010, 03:35 AM

I know that implication wasn't really there, just the whole thing struck me the wrong way and I meant to emphasize the limitations of moderation and the reality (my view of reality) that a complaint about free exchange and discrimination not backed by action is tinny at best. We are not running a corporation.

Sorry, but this kind of discussion turns me right off so I'll bow out. I'm more interested in meaningful exchange than political-type parrying personally, and that's what I'm looking for in my own experience here.

Dude I dig where you are at, you know who I am and where you can find me yo.

Ceoli

09-04-2010, 09:54 PM

If you guys can't GET that, and if you insist on being deliberately obtuse and on spinning my comment to suit your own agenda(s), then I sincerely do not want to converse with either one of you anymore. It seems that you want me to be "sorry" for what I said. Well, I'm sorry you don't like what I said.

I wasn't spinning anything to suit any agenda and it wasn't about you. It was about how remarks can be seen. Ah well.

NeonKaos

09-06-2010, 04:42 PM

I wasn't spinning anything to suit any agenda and it wasn't about you. It was about how remarks can be seen. Ah well.

If it really isn't "about me", then it's other people's problem(s) if "remarks can be seen" in ways other than they were actually meant. I explained that remark, and folks still insisted that it was meant as "You're a stripper, therefore you must have a drug problem". Ah well.

AutumnalTone

09-06-2010, 11:06 PM

People can, and will, hallucinate all sorts of wild meanings into what others say. It's only a problem when they refuse to own the hallucinations they created.

kymberleea

09-14-2010, 07:09 PM

i know i am new to all this
and maybe i am totaly off wack to this but to me different strokes for different folks and even poly is different and theres bound to be different ways of doing it even here but i just love the saying

"When speaking of various forms of non-monogamy...it ain't poly if you're just fucking around. "

never a truer statement i have heard cause to me thats what its all about

and we all are here for one reason good bad happy and sad we might not all agree but if we act like adults and play nice we can all get along at least that's what i think. :rolleyes:

kymberleea

who is totaly enjoying reading this forum and getting quite a learning today. and hoping shes not making too many mistakes and is forgiven if she is. :confused:

CielDuMatin

10-18-2010, 07:28 PM

Very late to the party, here. As those that remember my previous time here may remember - I gave a lot of thought back then to how forums work, and read with interest the criticisms that were made of this and other fora.

Now I see that similar issues are still being discussed, and I have an idea...

For those that feel that the culture here is marginalizing, and unwelcoming to a group of poly folk, I would love to learn from those that are doing it well. Can anyone please give an example of a poly discussion site that "does it right" when it comes to these issues?

I would love to join up and get a flavour from it so that I can learn what we are missing or not understanding. I would hazard a guess that others would also like to learn.

Olderwoman

01-04-2011, 01:12 AM

I am trying to better understand the rules, guidelines (and people) in this forum. I would like to be frank and honest and express myself freely but I'm thinking that may not be possible without getting negative reactions and unintentionally offending people.

In order not to "infest" another thread by being off topic I wanted to respond to this post separately here on the subject of generalizations, impressions, being reactive etc.

While I notice that guidelines for using four letter words such as "fuck" etc. in the proper context, is permitted, I am finding that some people are sensitive to mild generalizations and sarcasm and have taken my statements as a personal offense.

In my defense, yes, I am a newbie and you don't know me and I don't know you.

I do want to be honest and genuine. I don't want to walk on eggs or be subject to being expected to be "dishonestly polite."

If not, I will commence to warn when I am "joking" or being sarcastic with open and close tags like:

<warning sarcasm here>
</end of sarcasm>

If that will help. (see example below.)

Olderwoman, I would suggest you read these forums a little more extensively. Your comment was reactionary and judgmental.

Yes, perhaps it was.

<official excuse>
Of course I was still licking my wounds from being attacked and judged yesterday for my own "offensive" generalized statement about my "being a woman......"
</excuse>

The sentiment that "women don't want to share" is a commonly found one in poly circles, I have learned.

So are you saying that it is a common polyamorous sentiment that women don't want to share; or have you accepted it as truth because it is "common" and repeatedly stated?

<thinking>
hmmmm.... This is getting interesting.
(I am now remembering something I read yesterday about the power of words and honesty last night........ but then I digress.)
</ end of thought>

I'm a feminist, but don't see the value in jumping on someone for making a generalization about women that also happens to be predominantly true within a certain culture.

I say the following in good fun, so please don't take offense:........

<in good fun>
Gee, where were you yesterday when I was jumped on like raw meat in a pool of piranhas for my own offensive generalization concerning women? I sure could have used your vigorous support then! LOL
</end of fun>

side note: what "certain culture" are you making reference to above?

Keep reading, and may I also suggest that you examine how your anger is infecting every post you have made in every thread thus far.

Infecting every post? Am I to understand that you have read all of my posts thus far?

I am indeed reading these forums and enjoying them very much!

Again, I am not angry. (Brutally honest maybe, and a bit sarcastic.)

<thinking to myself here:>
I suppose I could have followed the example of others and complained that I found the remark "sexist" and "offensive" but that would have been dishonest.
</thinking>

Mohegan

01-04-2011, 03:11 AM

That is the problem with written communication.

I think, as annoying it may be, your warnings may be needed.

I am a very sarcastic person. I am a very blunt person. but thats hard to determine a difference in written word. i've run into much the same problem as you. My way of speaking, my tone, tends to be interpretted wrong in written word. I've had many an issue here because of it.

I tend to preface my generalizations with- "In my experience I've seen ___". Still a generalization, but one based on my experiences.

Somegeezer

01-04-2011, 03:46 AM

It's not what you say, it's how you say it. Rephrasing something will make a big difference. I've already felt out of place in a thread when what I meant to say was not read the same way by the people reading. Sometimes you make mistakes and you just put your hands up and say so. It only dug me in deeper when I tried to explain myself. Everyone's opinion is valid, but people also get hurt. There's no reason to make it worse.

So just be careful how you say things, whilst still getting your opinion out.

booklady78

01-04-2011, 03:55 AM

I haven't read your other posts so this is just my two cents :P

I agree that there can be a big disparity between written and verbal communication, misunderstandings do happen.

In a post, I think it was in "Coming Out", someone made a statement about parents not needing to get so upset about their children being poly if they "still got grandkids out of the arrangement" (I'm not quoting word for word, just summarizing in my own words). A seemingly innocent generalization that irked me. This is likely because my own family has made insensitive comments about my infertility and have questioned my decision to be childfree.

What it comes down to is that I "own my shit". The person who made that generalization didn't know me, didn't direct it at me, and I can be sure was not out to offend me. Me getting offended was my own reaction that I'm responsible for and I know that it certainly wasn't worth getting into a debate over. If I see a post or discussion with someone making broad generalizations that I feel strongly about, I may jump in, even just to play "devils advocate". That applies to me too, as it can be quite cool to see a side of things I never considered. I may get irked by things, but I usually let things slide when I can see there was no harm intended. Do most parents want grandbabies? Sure, I would say most parents expect their kids to have kids. Is that fair? Is that right? Therein lies the debate and dangers of generalizing. Generalizing puts people into a "one size fits all" when it's impossible to do that 100%, you're inevitably going to leave someone out.

I don't mind pointing out a generalization if there is that opportunity to get some growth from it, something learned, just a cool conversation. I would opt for a discussion rather than a debate. However, sometimes you don't know you've offended someone until the "deed is done". I don't know if it's always worth expending energy getting upset over generalizations. It's kinda like some people getting a kick out of correcting other people's spelling :P

I didn't read your posts so I don't know exactly what you may have said to offend people. Maybe you were abrasive or maybe they were sensitive, maybe a bit of both. It all comes down to how much energy you want to expend on a topic of conversation. If someone gets offended, you can apologize, maybe just let that one go, and move on to another topic. Or maybe it's worth debating over, there's no hard and fast rule.

Olderwoman

01-04-2011, 04:10 AM

booklady78,

I remember that post about the benefit of having "grandkids" etc. and wondered why a person would assume that a family who did not approve of the poly lifestyle would automatically be happy when grandkids appeared. There are just too many variables to make an assumption like that I think.

FlameKat

01-04-2011, 06:45 AM

If someone gets offended, you can apologize, maybe just let that one go, and move on to another topic. Or maybe it's worth debating over, there's no hard and fast rule.

This... unless of course you didn't a) do it deliberately or b) realise - even though it was pointed out a number of times...

*major sarcasm*

redpepper

01-04-2011, 08:04 AM

Oh boy can I relate to your need to "lick your wounds." I have been writing here for two years and have had to several times... I could point out exactly which threads and posts it effects me so much. There have been times on occasion that it has been about sarcasm on my part also... mostly my hot head getting the better of me or someone who either doesn't agree with me, or thinks I talk to much or disagrees with how I process information.

You know what though, I have also, a million times over all that, had amazing connections and started really good friendships with people here. This place has got me through my entire relationship with Mono... we wouldn't of had a leg to stand on two years ago if it weren't for here, seriously. Now he lives with us and things in my life are incredible. I owe a lot to this forum and work hard to preserve the atmosphere here because it has worked like this so far... and believe me I and others have been slammed for that... as some would prefer a blood bath to get stuff sorted out.

Really, this place is not for everyone. It has not been a good time for all, but no one place is good for everyone... I just hope that this is a place where we get to the bottom of what poly is about and skip the drama of trying to understand one another... really its just best to be tolerant, patient, find out what is going on for one another and really listen. All of that doesn't mean responding all the time; but its part of poly, to me anyway.

We don't get to be face to face, so we have to write on here as if no one knows us and know one sees our face. It's kinda cold to do that and can be flat and humourless but once we are known better on here some humour and warmth comes and is accepted...

Its good to see you've made yourself vulnerable here Olderwoman. I applaud you for that...its very brave and I respect that you have reached out. I look forward to getting to know you better :)

FlameKat

01-04-2011, 09:35 AM

Speaking only for myself and at the risk of sticking my neck on the chopping block... :p

I do want to be honest and genuine. I don't want to walk on eggs or be subject to being expected to be "dishonestly polite."

Again, I am not angry. (Brutally honest maybe, and a bit sarcastic.)

There are ways to be honest and genuine without being "dishonestly polite".

There are ways to apologise for causing offence - without apologising for what you said.

Please also remember that people posting on this forum are likely posting something that they are sensitive about, or something that is troubling or hurting them deeply. They are just as vulnerable as the people commenting, if not more so - as that is their issue that they (and you) are talking about.

There are other members on here who are brutally honest, opinionated and brash and rude and everything else under the sun (and I do include myself in those)... 9.9 times out of ten though, any offense or hurt is not intended and common courtesies are followed.

Mohegan and Redpepper both acknowledged difficulties they have faced with their communication style on this forum. I am newer to this forum than both of them and having had the benefit of being able to read through their struggles and get to know them (via their very personal posts) has meant that I now understand (to a degree) their communication styles, I understand they are both here to help themselves and, more importantly, help others, and take no offense - automatically. They also have a very deep respect (and I do not trust or respect easy) from me because of the effort they put in to be understood, and to not cause offence.

You do not have that privilege (from me) yet - not because you are unwelcome - but simply because you are unknown and we CANNOT be expected to know that you are sarcastic, and brutally honest. I have a feeling it is likely that your sense of humour is also (at this stage) a very unknown quantity.

For myself, I know I will probably still take some time to adjust to that communication style, as it is a somewhat abrasive style - particularly in written word.

Having said all that, genuine kudo's to you for making the effort to find out what is going wrong :p I look forward to "figuring you out" to the best of my ability :D

GroundedSpirit

01-04-2011, 03:17 PM

Olderwoman

01-04-2011, 07:25 PM

Thanks redpepper.

Flamkat:
I have to laugh at you calling my style "abrasive" because I am so much more mellow than I could be or once was. I think I explained to you privately why I don't automatically chirp "I'm sorry" to everyone who feels offended by something I have said.

Allow me to give everyone some background on that life lesson.

One of my X-husbands was always putting me down and making me feel "wrong" and inadequate all the time. I lost my true identity in an effort to "be perfect" according to his specifications. I found myself apologizing all the time for my faults, mistakes and imperfections. Too much of that will literally drive a person crazy. I barely got out of that marriage with my soul, let alone my life. He was a master mind manipulator and even bragged about his power to "mind fuck" his mate.

Well as they say what doesn't kill you often makes you stronger. I learned oh so much from that relationship. It wasn't all bad, I learned how to be strong and assertive and confident.

I have a keen alarm that goes off when people try to manipulate me into saying "I'm sorry" by claiming to be hurt or offended, especially if I was attempting to be helpful. I am ruthless about being responsible for my own feelings and ruthless about holding other people responsible for theirs. When I truly and honestly FEEL sorry for some mistake I made, I will break my neck getting to that person to apologize and subsequently try to change my evil ways and become a better person.

In my life I have also had additional experiences with people who are master manipulating and totally dysfunctional psychopaths. These people should be avoided like the plague. They are equivalent to vampires.

A great book to read is "Games People Play." That book made a lot of people angry because it exposed them and spelled out their manipulation games.

Communication is a challenge for everyone, especially if they are not honest with themselves and others. I do have faults but I like myself a lot. I am a very happy person and I feel joy in my heart no matter what my daily life situation is like. That joy is a spiritual joy of profound freedom and peace. I am not insecure about who I am or what I believe.

I believe in freedom, honesty and self responsibility. I am human and I make mistakes. I try to overcome the tendency to make excuses and blame others but some things are automatic habits that go unnoticed, like statements like

"women don't like to share.."

Yes, I could have overlooked it. But in the aftermath of being scolded yesterday I decided to draw attention to it.

I'm sure that statement is true about some women and in some people's experience. The statement would have been better saying:

"In my experience I have found that most women, especially young women, don't like to share."

Yes this takes a lot more thought and more effort and I will try to put more thought and more effort into making true and more honest statements in any future posts.

I do joke around a lot and I like to use sarcasm sometimes. I will post <advance warning> tags if I feel they are necessary. I do have a sense of humor.

Thank you all for letting me express.

Olderwoman

01-04-2011, 08:09 PM

********Originally Posted by Olderwoman
I do want to be honest and genuine. I don't want to walk on eggs or be subject to being expected to be "dishonestly polite."

Again, I am not angry. (Brutally honest maybe, and a bit sarcastic.)

************************************************** ***

Hey Olderwoman,

Sheeshhhhhh - you are in deep already just by picking a member name - you got ageism (Older) and sexism (woman) all wrapped up in one package !

<<GRIN>>

Relax :)

I chose "olderwoman" because I wanted to be upfront about my age. I don't feel old, (except when I do the math LOL)-- and I am in great health.

Also, I've considered looking for a younger man for a relationship-- so I thought the name "olderwoman" might attract some interest. LOL

-- but I would not complain if he were an older guy in relatively good health. (I don't want to be a nurse.)

I also remember reading a defensive comment you made in some post earlier but didn't have time to reply. Something to the effect of being 'too old' for this place etc.

What I may have meant was that I was wondering if I was too mature for this place and thinking I might be among a bunch of teenyboppin" swingers lookin" to get laid. LOL LOL ... and perhaps I was attempting to get some sympathy LOL.

The one thing most of us here really are proud of and appreciate is the fact that we have about every age and walk of life present here. And that's REALLY important ! It helps most of us improve our understanding of the variety of perspectives all these varied people can come from. If you allow it - it's a very bonding experience.

You have your own style, people will learn to understand it and appreciate it. Just be honest and clear. I think it's more dangerous to cloud things by trying to sugar coat them and end up losing the actual meaning.

If someone attacks you (rare) - just let it slide and don't acknowledge it. Like a bee - if you just ignore it it will usually move on.

We welcome your participation !

GS

Good, that's great to hear, and thanks for the advice!

NeonKaos

01-04-2011, 09:01 PM

Olderwoman

01-04-2011, 09:24 PM

OlderWoman, many of the things you wondered about could have been answered in advance by reading what has already been written on this forum. This may come as a surprise to you, but this forum has existed for two years already without you, and questions such as whether there are married couples in outside long-term committed poly relationships, whether or not this place is a "bunch of teeny-boppers looking to get laid", and so forth, have been covered extensively.

One of my pet peeves on forums is when people come across as though they are not interested in reading what other people have already written, but expect everyone else to fully digest and process what THEY have written just because they decided to join a forum out of the blue. That is how you have come across to me so far. I am not jumping to conclusions out of nowhere because I have read your posts thoroughly and there is no way you would be asking certain things had you spent some time reading older threads and searching on areas that are of interest to you.

Having said that, you seem to have managed to charm some of the people here in spite of yourself.

You make some very good points and a totally agree with them.

I sometimes teach painting classes and I run into the exact same problem with my art students. They all want to jump in and start painting and they don't listen to anything the instructor is trying to tell them, and they don't want to spend a half hour watching a painting demonstration tape, and they wonder why their painting looks atrocious and start whining about how they can't paint.

So yes, I see what you are saying. :D

I also only have 24 hours in a day and I take care of my parents full time. Both of them pretty much need 24 hours care and my father has Alzheimer's. I keep an eye on them with a nanny cam from my computer room.

Yes I should have read everything on this forum before posting but I spend way too much time on the computer already. I plan to cut back on that a lot.

I have made a new goal to spend more time in the real world this 2011, and improve my health, drop some pounds etc., so I will probably back off from my cyber activity A LOT this year.

That will be very hard since my business is on the computer, most of my friends are in cyberspace, I shop via the Internet and I have dozens of websites and several blogs to maintain. Yep that will be very hard.

I just wanted to take a quick dip in this pool to see what the water was like. :D

I like it. I like it a lot. :D

Thanks for your point of view.

FlameKat

01-04-2011, 11:38 PM

Olderwoman, since you brought up your private messages -

you stated quite clearly you would only apologse for offense if you had intended to offend, or if you realised you had been offensive.

I find both those statements by you to be untrue given the fact that if you intended to offend - you wouldn't be sorry about it...

If you realised it - you were told by a number of people you were being offensive, and how... you ignored them and defended your position... what you said largely wasn't the problem - the delivery was.

I agree thoroughly with NeonKaos' comment also.

Olderwoman

01-05-2011, 02:25 AM

Olderwoman, since you brought up your private messages -

you stated quite clearly you would only apologse for offense if you had intended to offend, or if you realised you had been offensive.

TRUE. I also stated that I would not apologize unless I was truly sorry. That would be a phony and dishonest statement for the sake of politeness or manipulation.

I find both those statements by you to be untrue given the fact that if you intended to offend - you wouldn't be sorry about it...

That is an assumption.
(How would you know of any such fact about how I might act or feel?)

People have done things intentionally that they later sincerely and deeply regretted. (I know I have.) My statements were not "untrue." (Of course it is your choice to believe or disbelieve anything you want, and I have no problem with that.)

...If you realised it - you were told by a number of people you were being offensive, and how... you ignored them and defended your position... what you said largely wasn't the problem - the delivery was.

Had I "ignored them" we would not still be having this conversation. I have no need to defend my position, I just refused to agree with and own their (and your) perceptions of me.

Besides everyone has a right to their opinions, but that does not mean I am obligated to agree with them, (that I was "being offensive.")

I will defend anyone's right to be offended by anything they chose, as long as they don't point the finger at the source and place the blame there. Just because they were offended by something this does not convict me of "being offensive."

Do you believe people should take responsibility for their own reactions? If I were to kill someone in a rage do you think I could get away with it by claiming that they are at fault because "they made me angry"?

Being told by a "number of people" that I am ugly does not make it so and does not mean I should then go around believing I am ugly.

Also, what might offend one person may not offend another.

As I have said before, I believe that people should take responsibility for their own reactions and feelings. I hope this clarifies "my position."

FlameKat

01-05-2011, 08:29 AM

NeonKaos

01-05-2011, 01:10 PM

I am GENUINELY trying to understand you, It is very rare for me to come up against the sheer difficulty in adjusting to your communication style. It bothers me to have this difficulty. It may be that you simply 'rub me the wrong way', but I would like to think this is just a hiccup and all will be well.

This.

Enquiring Minds™ want to know.

Olderwoman

01-05-2011, 04:39 PM

@Olderwoman

So am I now correct then in what I think you are saying?

That you are saying that you would only apologise if:

The offense was intentional (in other words; that 'in the moment' you meant to be offensive) - but you then regretted it later.

AND...

that you would also only apologise if you agree that what you said was offensive (that you, yourself, understand how you offended or were offensive) and you feel an apology is deserved by the other person?

BUT...

That if you didn't mean to offend, or cannot understand how you offended, you don't feel an apology *or at least explanation of your viewpoint* is warranted?

and if I may be heard clearly....

I am GENUINELY trying to understand you, It is very rare for me to come up against the sheer difficulty in adjusting to your communication style. It bothers me to have this difficulty. It may be that you simply 'rub me the wrong way', but I would like to think this is just a hiccup and all will be well.

I am glad you are genuinely trying to understand me. I think this will clear things up and please don't take any offense as I attempt to be as frank and honest as possible.

I have given examples of why I don't apologize every time someone claims to be offended or hurt, and I think I have explained the reason for that quite well.

I have said that I believe in taking responsibility for my personal reactions and that I believe that others should do the same. (I don't assume the blame for their feelings.)

I have said that I think if a person is offended that they should not blame the source and that they should search themselves for understanding why they were offended.

I have said that I believe that to apologize insincerely is dishonest and empty or meaningless.

I have said that I believe that what might offend one person may not offend another person.

I have given examples of how people will play manipulative mind games of guilt and blame with each other to extract apologies so they can feel right and powerful --and how I learned about that through my own experience.

Yes, perhaps I "rub you wrong," but if you really want to understand what I mean, try reading what I am saying as it is written without any preconceived ideas and take it at its face value and meaning.

Every situation is different, and I said that if I feel that I have made a mistake, realized it, and was truly sorry and regretful I would "break my neck" (an expression) getting to the person to apologize, THEN I would vow to change my evil ways and become a better person.

I don't say things like "I'm sorry" or "I love you" in a causal manner or just to be polite, or just to manipulate. I say it when I actually feel it sincerely. I take those words seriously. I feel that to use them often and carelessly diminishes their meaning and value.

I might say "I'm sorry you were offended" (if I believed you really were) but I would not say "I'm sorry I offended you." The latter is a guilty plea that implies that I agree with you that I am "being offensive" -which I don't believe.

As it went down I was not sure if you really were offended or if you were just playing the game of trying to extract an apology so you could feel right. I'm still not sure if you were truly offended or just playing the game because you said that it would be a waste of your time to explain to me WHY you were offended. Yet you seem to be spending a lot of time time trying to understand why you were unsuccessful extracting an apology from me. This appears to me that you are merely working hard to understand why the game you play did not work. Of course I could be wrong about that.....

....So if you were truly offended and you are in need of an apology, I am truly sorry that you were offended. However, I can't change my evil ways and become a better person because I do not believe I was being offensive. I can only believe that you took offense for your own personal reasons.

In my heart of hearts I was trying to be helpful, and if you were instead not helped but only offended I will admit that my feelings were hurt by that, but I take responsibility for my own feelings, so I don't usually tell people when my feelings are hurt. Its not their fault and It is not my intention to try to extract an apology.

I hope this is clear. I don't know if I can get any clearer.

The simplicity is that I would apologize if I sincerely felt sorry.

NeonKaos

01-05-2011, 04:54 PM

Olderwoman

01-05-2011, 08:11 PM

There is a difference between apologizing and "being sorry".

"being sorry" is when you regret something.

Apologizing is when you acknowledge YOUR part in something that didn't go right.

You do not have to "be sorry" to make a sincere apology. The two are neither interdependent nor mutually exclusive.

The guideline I follow is to be true to myself and others as much as possible and hope for the best.

It's not an exact science. :D

Olderwoman

01-05-2011, 08:23 PM

There is a difference between apologizing and "being sorry".

You do not have to "be sorry" to make a sincere apology. The two are neither interdependent nor mutually exclusive.

I am curious though, about how that would go.

"I'm not really sorry, but I do sincerely apologize." (?)

NeonKaos

01-05-2011, 08:52 PM

I am curious though, about how that would go.

"I'm not really sorry, but I do sincerely apologize." (?)

Looks like you have something new to meditate about.

Olderwoman

01-05-2011, 09:15 PM

Looks like you have something new to meditate about.

I was thinking just the opposite. Do you meditate?:D

Seriously, how do you think anyone would feel after hearing an apology like that?

What kind of response do you think I would get in this case from an apology like that?

If it sounds good to you, maybe I will start using it. :D

"I'm not really sorry, but I sincerely apologize." :p

Yep I like it. I like it a lot. :D

I reminds me of the phony used car salesman who read the book "Think and Grow Rich" and was all excited that he had learned all the secrets. He told his boss, --- > "Now all I have to do is learn to fake sincerity." :p

<warning sarcasm here>

I now want to take this time to say to all used car salesmen who might be reading this and who might be offended: I am not really sorry but I do sincerely apologize. ;)

</end of sarcasm>

I've had a lot of fun with this discussion.:)

FlameKat

01-05-2011, 09:20 PM

@Olderwoman

It would help me more if you could simply answer the questions I stated very simply in my response, rather than going off on the tangent that I am oviously having difficulty understanding.

Yes/No would have worked a hell of a lot better. Your apology is mostly meaningless given the passive-agressive nature of your words above it. I will however, for my own sanity, accept the gesture.

Your words and the way you speak, I realise now, remind me of my ex (though not as bad) in the way you will cannot answer a question with a simple yes or no, and go off on a tangent designed to attempt to make me apologise to you for my "bad behaviour" in not understanding your thought process.

He has recently been tentatively diagnosed as a Borderline Personality, and has been extremely abusive towards not only myself but our children.

This similarity between your communication styles is what is setting me off. However, that said, I still do not understand you (I never understood him either) and will do myself (and everyone else) a favour by not trying to anymore. This is for a need to maintain my own precarious balance, and my own focus, this misunderstanding between us has niggled at me and that is not good.

I wish you all the best on here and hope you find what you are looking for.

NeonKaos

01-05-2011, 09:36 PM

I've had a lot of fun with this discussion.:)

I'm glad for you.

Olderwoman

01-05-2011, 09:55 PM

@Olderwoman

It would help me more if you could simply answer the questions I stated very simply in my response, rather than going off on the tangent that I am oviously having difficulty understanding.

That post was a very long yes or no question. If all you want to know is if you understand me correctly, the answer is (apparently and clearly) ....NO.

At the risk of going off on another "passive aggressive tangent" I will summarize or rephrase my answer below:

I do my best to be true to myself and others and hope for the best.

(Communication is not an exact science.)

P.S.
Now I will go meditate and see if I can find the source of my passive aggressive energy.

nycindie

01-05-2011, 10:01 PM

I am curious though, about how that would go.

"I'm not really sorry, but I do sincerely apologize." (?)The difference is this: Often you realize that it's more important to take care of the people around you than to be right about something. If you think about that, it is easy to be genuine and apologize, even if you aren't really sorry. The apology is an acknowledgment of having hurt them, or having created an environment in which they feel hurt, and a gesture of surrendering to something greater (the relationship), or calling a truce, so that resentments do not remain in the way and the relationship can move forward. Sometimes it takes a bit of swallowing one's pride, but when the other person knows you are making an effort, healing takes place. Very wise teachers of mine have said many times that we all have two choices, being right or being alive. Digging one's heels in about being "right" only gives you that - being righteous. Whoopee. Apologizing and moving forward leads to aliveness. Sometimes an apology is only symbolic, but it still does much to soothe and heal wounds.

NeonKaos

01-05-2011, 10:31 PM

The difference is this: Often you realize that it's more important to take care of the people around you than to be right about something. If you think about that, it is easy to be genuine and apologize, even if you aren't really sorry. The apology is an acknowledgment of having hurt them, or having created an environment in which they feel hurt, and a gesture of surrendering to something greater (the relationship), or calling a truce, so that resentments do not remain in the way and the relationship can move forward. Sometimes it takes a bit of swallowing one's pride, but when the other person knows you are making an effort, healing takes place. Very wise teachers of mine have said many times that we all have two choices, being right or being alive. Digging one's heels in about being "right" only gives you that - being righteous. Whoopee. Apologizing and moving forward leads to aliveness. Sometimes an apology is only symbolic, but it still does much to soothe and heal wounds.

recently something like this happened to me. i was at a roller derby game and one of the other referees took something i said the wrong way. although i definitely didn't mean it in a bad way, and i definitely thought he was over-reacting, i acknowledged that what i said was unnecessary and APOLOGIZED. However, I was not "sorry" for saying it because I didn't MEAN to offend. I didn't apologize in a hostile, sarcastic way like Olderwoman suggested ("I'm not really sorry, but I sincerely apologize" - that is NOT "sincere"), I simply said "I didn't mean it like that, but you're right, I probably shouldn't have said it at all."

So, Older Woman, THAT is how I apologize without being sorry.

FlameKat

01-05-2011, 11:35 PM

This is the post with the yes/no questions I was referring to...

@Olderwoman

So am I now correct then in what I think you are saying?

That you are saying that you would only apologise if:

The offense was intentional (in other words; that 'in the moment' you meant to be offensive) - but you then regretted it later.

AND...

that you would also only apologise if you agree that what you said was offensive (that you, yourself, understand how you offended or were offensive) and you feel an apology is deserved by the other person?

BUT...

That if you didn't mean to offend, or cannot understand how you offended, you don't feel an apology *or at least explanation of your viewpoint* is warranted?

and if I may be heard clearly....

I am GENUINELY trying to understand you, It is very rare for me to come up against the sheer difficulty in adjusting to your communication style. It bothers me to have this difficulty. It may be that you simply 'rub me the wrong way', but I would like to think this is just a hiccup and all will be well.

Olderwoman

01-06-2011, 12:25 AM

The difference is this: Often you realize that it's more important to take care of the people around you than to be right about something. If you think about that, it is easy to be genuine and apologize, even if you aren't really sorry.

I guess that does not make a lot of sense to me because my understanding of an apology is the statement "I'm sorry." If you are NOT sorry, then the statement is not true.

The apology is an acknowledgment of having hurt them, or having created an environment in which they feel hurt, and a gesture of surrendering to something greater (the relationship), or calling a truce, so that resentments do not remain in the way and the relationship can move forward.

I understand this type of apology... "for the sake of the relationship" because that is where I found myself in my last marriage. I was constantly apologizing and assuming the blame for all the problems in the relationship (in an attempt to heal or save it.)" But this can be taken to the extreme... which is what happened in my case. It didn't heal anything, it just sucked the joy out of life and the soul out of me. (So here is the source of my trigger.)

The difference here is that I had not really hurt him. He was playing mind games. (Which a lot of people will do, so I don't necessarily or automatically trust people who claim to be "hurt" or "offended." There are too many games being played almost unconsciously.)

Sometimes it takes a bit of swallowing one's pride, but when the other person knows you are making an effort, healing takes place.

My healing took place when I got a divorce.:D

Very wise teachers of mine have said many times that we all have two choices, being right or being alive.

I tell that to people who wonder why I sometimes stop at green lights and look both directions.:p

Digging one's heels in about being "right" only gives you that - being righteous. Whoopee. Apologizing and moving forward leads to aliveness. Sometimes an apology is only symbolic, but it still does much to soothe and heal wounds.

Yes, an apology can keep you alive.:p;) (so can packing two suitcases and getting on a bus..:p; LOL

......But I don't think an apology should be symbolic of anything other than what it actually is. I think it should be true and sincere.

....unless of course your life is at stake. Then you can lie like hell. :D

Olderwoman

01-06-2011, 12:43 AM

This is the post with the yes/no questions I was referring to...

Yes I know. I went back and re-read it.

The one word answer that you are requesting is still no.

The better answer is:

I will apologize IF I actually feel sorry.

ray

01-06-2011, 03:45 AM

Olderwoman

01-06-2011, 05:18 AM

Before my poly adventure began, I was fairly religious and belonged to a church (that turned out to be a crazyyy place, even by evangelical standards) but there is one thing in particular that was "preached" that I took away. On the subject of conflict resolution.
Sometimes we hurt people, sometimes we mean to, sometimes we don't. They may be crazy and overly sensitive. Regardless, if some one comes to us and is hurt by our words or actions, one of the best ways to restore friendship is to simply say, I am sorry I hurt you. or something to that effect. To apologize that your actions caused them some pain. I've found that that alone can do so much that the issue often dissipates. Especially if it was something minor to begin with. Perhaps then if they've hurt you too, you can ask them to apologize to you. I know that was/is a hard mental transition for me because I love to be right. And if I think I'm right then I sure as hell don't want to apologize for something that's probably your fault anyway. But that kind of thinking has never helped me mend any relationship. So I've been working on it.

Ray,

<warning:here is my soapbox philosophy>:p

I don't disagree with what you are saying. It is called politeness or common courtesy. It is considered a good habit when you deal with a group of people. It's like asking a person, "How are you?" and they will automatically respond: "Fine!" Or even like saying "I love you" and expecting them to respond, "I love you too." (And if they don't respond with "I love you too" as expected, someone is very likely to get hurt.)

I am not at all against these kinds of polite social interactions, but I have noticed people unconsciously carrying on lengthy meaningless conversations and greeting people and not truly connecting with them in the slightest.

It is like when the check-out person at the supermarket says "Paper or plastic?" and "Have a nice day" and their eyes never meet yours. Their minds are somewhere else and they don't actually care about your day or your answer. or you... ....and no one really expects them to...

We often walk around like unconscious robots, our brains just running programs (me included).. and we don't actually "see" or listen to people or actually connect with them in the moment. We don't mean half of what we say. We don't wonder who they really are. We are like actors on a stage reading the lines we have rehearsed and have been told (programed) we should say, because it is polite and socially acceptable.

It is not easy to live consciously in the moment. I have discovered that when I try it, and deviate from common programming, some people will often "wake up" for a brief moment, sometimes just long enough to be hurt or offended... or even shocked.

For me, it has nothing to do with "being right." It is an exercise in being conscious and true.(honest) not in being righteous. Following group programming can be easily learned and followed. Eventually you will fit in and become a cog in the wheel of your society and you can spend your time having meaningless interactions with strangers, never really connecting with anyone or getting to know anyone.

I believe that each and every encounter I have with any living thing is meaningful and that moment is all that exists. It is my goal to practice being in the moment. It isn't easy. I can't do it for long or even often.

So I sometime say "how are you? and "I am fine" and "have a nice day." and "Thank you" But I try to remember to look in the person's eyes and see the person behind them and really think about what I am saying. And I do say "I'm sorry" and "I love you" and I try to remember to say it only when I actually feel it. That is how I practice living consciously.

</wow... end of soapbox>:D

redpepper

01-06-2011, 05:40 AM

....So if you were truly offended and you are in need of an apology, I am truly sorry that you were offended. pg 12 post 120. second to last paragraph...

isn't this apologizing without being sorry? The sorry is in the misunderstanding, not what was said.

Olderwoman

01-06-2011, 08:19 AM

Originally Posted by Olderwoman
....So if you were truly offended and you are in need of an apology, I am truly sorry that you were offended.

pg 12 post 120. second to last paragraph...

isn't this apologizing without being sorry?

No, Of course not. It is apologizing without assuming blame.
To say "I'm sorry" without really being sorry would clearly be dishonest.

(There is a difference between "I am sorry you were offended" and "I am sorry for being offensive.")

The sorry is in the misunderstanding, not what was said.

Yes, but it was implied that I was "being offensive" and that I should plead guilty, admit it and apologize. I didn't feel that I should own those perceptions,(out of respect for myself) and at the time, I wasn't sure if anyone was really offended, or if they were just playing the game.

I am now thinking that we've just about beat this subject to death. :p

I hope someone is beginning to understand what I am saying. If not, then I have failed.:o
Feel free to destroy the evidence....:p:D

FlameKat

01-06-2011, 10:07 AM

Originally Posted by Olderwoman
....So if you were truly offended and you are in need of an apology, I am truly sorry that you were offended.

No, Of course not. It is apologizing without assuming blame.
To say "I'm sorry" without really being sorry would clearly be dishonest.

(There is a difference between "I am sorry you were offended" and "I am sorry for being offensive.")

Yes, but it was implied that I was "being offensive" and that I should plead guilty, admit it and apologize. I didn't feel that I should own those perceptions,(out of respect for myself) and at the time, I wasn't sure if anyone was really offended, or if they were just playing the game.

I am now thinking that we've just about beat this subject to death. :p

I hope someone is beginning to understand what I am saying. If not, then I have failed.:o
Feel free to destroy the evidence....:p:D

If someone has been offended by what you have said, then you were being offensive to that person. It is not your responsibility to 'take the blame' for 'being offensive'. Acknowledging that perhaps what you said had caused someone to feel offended is different. And actually - looking back over all the posts... no-one actually asked you for an apology... that was your assumption.

You were 'taken to task' as it were for refusing to acknowledge that people HAD been offended, even though it had been pointed out - you refused to understand that they had been, or how.

Personally... you laughed that I found offense with a comment of yours I (and others) found sexist. Prior to which you had directed assumptions regarding my character and how I would direct my life following a question which was seeking other's personal opinions or experiences. After I found offense with the sexist comment you proceeded to call me 'delicate and fragile' because I stated that I was serious that I had found the comment offensive.
In your private responses to me you implied I was playing a game in order to get you to apologise. You also stated I was over-sensitive and dramatic.

All that and I still am not hurt, offended - yes. Expecting an apology - no. (Though I did accept the one you gave as you kept mentioning it and you refused to understand it wasn't an apology I was looking for) I was genuinely trying to understand how someone can have so little regard for what other people are saying... and so little care for how their own words affect the message they are sending.

From my perspective you simply do not care, either how you are perceived, or how you effect people.

NeonKaos

01-06-2011, 11:45 AM

FlameKat

01-06-2011, 01:39 PM

NeonKaos

01-06-2011, 01:58 PM

:D I didn't mention it because I felt it obvious this is exactly the point being put forward...

However :D ... WHAT NEONKAOS SAID... with bells on even :D

Ooh ooh the validation, it BURNS! I mean, it TICKLES.. whatever; you know what I mean. I am so delicate and fragile that I need people to tell me that I am right and it's ok.

Olderwoman

01-06-2011, 07:37 PM

If someone has been offended by what you have said, then you were being offensive to that person.

This is your personal conclusion, which is an opinion not a fact.

What one person is offended by may not offend another person. To make the conclusion that the source (me or the statement) is at fault is placing blame on the source (me or my actions) for your personal reactions. I.E. "...you were being offensive.."

It is not your responsibility to 'take the blame' for 'being offensive'. Acknowledging that perhaps what you said had caused someone to feel offended is different.

Yes Exactly. I agree. Therefore, I did not apologize for "being offensive."

To say, "I'm sorry for "being offensive." is to agree that I was being offensive. (And I don't agree or accept the perception that I was.)

But to say, "I am sorry you were offended by what I said." is to express a feeling of empathy or compassion. but it does not own the perception that I was being offensive.

Perhaps there are members who don't think I was being offensive. Perhaps others agree that I was. These are perceptions and opinions.

And actually - looking back over all the posts... no-one actually asked you for an apology... that was your assumption.

True, but several posters implied that an apology was a good idea. That is what started my contemplation on different kinds of apologies. I have actually learned a lot; and hopefully it will help me to change my careless ways and become a better person. :)

You were 'taken to task' as it were for refusing to acknowledge that people HAD been offended, even though it had been pointed out - you refused to understand that they had been, or how.

Actually I refused to believe that you or they were truly offended. And if they were, I could not understand why they were.
People don't "refuse to understand" they either understand or they don't understand.

Personally... you laughed that I found offense with a comment of yours I (and others) found sexist.

Yes I did. I seriously thought it was sarcasm, so I didn't take it seriously. (I think people are sometimes way too serious and sensitive about everything. Life is too short for so much drama in my opinion.)

...Prior to which you had directed assumptions regarding my character and how I would direct my life following a question which was seeking other's personal opinions or experiences. After I found offense with the sexist comment you proceeded to call me 'delicate and fragile' because I stated that I was serious that I had found the comment offensive.
In your private responses to me you implied I was playing a game in order to get you to apologise. You also stated I was over-sensitive and dramatic.

Yes, but that is just my impression. Now I do regret posting anything to you in the first place. You admit above that you were seeking other people's "personal opinions or experiences" and then you chose to find mine "offensive." If I had known you were going to be so easily offended I would not have said anything at all. I have no way of knowing what might offend anyone. I was just being myself, relaxed and and honest and I was found to be "offensive." My reaction is if you are going to seek other people's "personal opinions or experiences" and you want honesty, you might try not to be so quick to be offended.

Look for the meaning behind my words. Do you really think I was purposely trying to offend you? Why would I do that?

All that and I still am not hurt, offended - yes. Expecting an apology - no. (Though I did accept the one you gave as you kept mentioning it and you refused to understand it wasn't an apology I was looking for) I was genuinely trying to understand how someone can have so little regard for what other people are saying... and so little care for how their own words affect the message they are sending.

From my perspective you simply do not care, either how you are perceived, or how you effect people.

If I did not care I would not have started this thread.

You told me you found it "offensive" because you did not want to "be understood just "because you were a woman" and that you want to be understood "because you are human."

( Personally I will take any kind of understanding I can get.:p )

I know a lot of people would like to think that masculine and feminine traits are equal and the same, but they are not. Perhaps humans will some day evolve to the point where all are both male and female physically and mentally, but we aren't there yet. Until then, we are divided and we can see differences between the masculine and the feminine traits regardless of the physical body.

I was speaking from my personal experience which has observed that the feminine side tends to be more sensitive to emotions and have more of a need to be understood. From my experience men (masculine) are less prone to want to talk about their feelings. Of course that is my experience and opinion which is what you wanted and it is a generalization, so what? I have seen a lot of people making generalizations on this forum.

I have heard we all have a masculine side and a feminine side. (And maybe more sides that we are aware of.) My feminine side desires to be perfectly understood, even though I know now that this is unlikely to happen. My masculine side really doesn't care that much. That's my personal experience.:D

NeonKaos

01-06-2011, 07:50 PM

True, but several posters implied that an apology was a good idea. That is what started my contemplation on different kinds of apologies. I have actually learned a lot; and hopefully it will help me to change my careless ways and become a better person. :)

Note to self: respond to what people actually say, not what you imagine they said.

Actually I refused to believe that you or they were truly offended. And if they were, I could not understand why they were.

It was EXPLAINED to you, yet you "refused to believe" it? You're calling FlameKat a LIAR? That is pathological. Have you been diagnosed with sociopathy by any chance? I'm not kidding, I'm totally serious and don't think this is funny at all. You can LOL all you want about it.

Now I do regret posting anything to you in the first place.

So... that must mean you ARE "sorry".

Olderwoman

01-06-2011, 08:10 PM

I am deeply offended that no one has said anything about my example of apologizing without being sorry:

http://www.polyamory.com/forum/showpost.php?p=58405&postcount=130

I assume if no one says anything, then no one disagrees with it; but please don't debate about it as though the example was never provided.

that is all.

I actually responded to that post but I hit an unknown button on my keyboard and it vanished.

I don't think you were "not sorry" I think you were sincere and you were expressing compassion for their feelings without assuming fault.

You may have been honestly sorry they were offended but you were not taking 'full' responsibility for it.

<My take on apologies>

Here are two good examples of these different kinds of apologies.

1. If a person's child was killed in a car accident unrelated to you:

"I'm so sorry for your loss!" <----You are sincere and are expressing sympathy and compassion.

The more deeply a person can understand and feel compassion for another person's loss or feelings, the more deeply and sincere the apology.

2. If you backed out of your driveway carelessly and killed someone's dog and felt responsible:

"I am so very sorry, It was all my fault, I should have been more careful." <---- you are sincere and expressing regret.

The more deeply a person feels regret, the more deeply and sincere the apology. We learn by our mistakes and when those mistakes cause us to change our life, they are good lessons.

</end>

Olderwoman

01-06-2011, 08:41 PM

It was EXPLAINED to you, yet you "refused to believe" it? You're calling FlameKat a LIAR? That is pathological. Have you been diagnosed with sociopathy by any chance? I'm not kidding, I'm totally serious and don't think this is funny at all. You can LOL all you want about it.

NO, I am not calling her a liar. What I said was that I did not believe her. That was my personal reaction, and I did not assume she was lying either. She may certainly have been telling the truth but I withheld my conclusions regarding that. (To what extent she was offended is still unknown to me.)

It is not "pathological" to NOT believe everything anyone tells you.

Do you automatically believe everything anyone says? I am being honest when I say that I tend to withhold my judgement on things people say and games people might play. That does not mean I "am calling them a liar."

So... that must mean you ARE "sorry".

Yes, I am certainly sorry I ever responded to her thread. I am sorry that I attempted to offer my opinion or experience. I am sorry she was offended. If I had it to do over I would not have posted anything in her thread....I would not have attempted to help her. I wish her the best.

Next time I will very likely just mind my own business.

FlameKat

01-06-2011, 09:27 PM

This is your personal conclusion, which is an opinion not a fact.

What one person is offended by may not offend another person. To make the conclusion that the source (me or the statement) is at fault is placing blame on the source (me or my actions) for your personal reactions. I.E. "...you were being offensive.."

Yes Exactly. I agree. Therefore, I did not apologize for "being offensive."

To say, "I'm sorry for "being offensive." is to agree that I was being offensive. (And I don't agree or accept the perception that I was.)

But to say, "I am sorry you were offended by what I said." is to express a feeling of empathy or compassion. but it does not own the perception that I was being offensive.

Perhaps there are members who don't think I was being offensive. Perhaps others agree that I was. These are perceptions and opinions.

True, but several posters implied that an apology was a good idea. That is what started my contemplation on different kinds of apologies. I have actually learned a lot; and hopefully it will help me to change my careless ways and become a better person. :)

Actually I refused to believe that you or they were truly offended. And if they were, I could not understand why they were.
People don't "refuse to understand" they either understand or they don't understand.

Yes I did. I seriously thought it was sarcasm, so I didn't take it seriously. (I think people are sometimes way too serious and sensitive about everything. Life is too short for so much drama in my opinion.)

Yes, but that is just my impression. Now I do regret posting anything to you in the first place. You admit above that you were seeking other people's "personal opinions or experiences" and then you chose to find mine "offensive." If I had known you were going to be so easily offended I would not have said anything at all. I have no way of knowing what might offend anyone. I was just being myself, relaxed and and honest and I was found to be "offensive." My reaction is if you are going to seek other people's "personal opinions or experiences" and you want honesty, you might try not to be so quick to be offended.

Look for the meaning behind my words. Do you really think I was purposely trying to offend you? Why would I do that?

If I did not care I would not have started this thread.

You told me you found it "offensive" because you did not want to "be understood just "because you were a woman" and that you want to be understood "because you are human."

( Personally I will take any kind of understanding I can get.:p )

I know a lot of people would like to think that masculine and feminine traits are equal and the same, but they are not. Perhaps humans will some day evolve to the point where all are both male and female physically and mentally, but we aren't there yet. Until then, we are divided and we can see differences between the masculine and the feminine traits regardless of the physical body.

I was speaking from my personal experience which has observed that the feminine side tends to be more sensitive to emotions and have more of a need to be understood. From my experience men (masculine) are less prone to want to talk about their feelings. Of course that is my experience and opinion which is what you wanted and it is a generalization, so what? I have seen a lot of people making generalizations on this forum.

I have heard we all have a masculine side and a feminine side. (And maybe more sides that we are aware of.) My feminine side desires to be perfectly understood, even though I know now that this is unlikely to happen. My masculine side really doesn't care that much. That's my personal experience.:D

I asked for personal opinion and expereiences on what price is too high to pay to keep their personal integrity - not their personal opinions of wheter or not they felt i may lie, be deceitful or other be delicat or fragile etc and so forth - you do not know me therefore can have no personal opinion or experience of me (other than this extremely long running misunderstanding)

Olderwoman

01-06-2011, 10:10 PM

I asked for personal opinion and expereiences on what price is too high to pay to keep their personal integrity - not their personal opinions of wheter or not they felt i may lie, be deceitful or other be delicat or fragile etc and so forth - you do not know me therefore can have no personal opinion or experience of me (other than this extremely long running misunderstanding)

The subject about my not being sure if you were playing a game or being honest about "being offended" only came up a lot later in this conversation. It did not come up in my original post that allegedly offended you so much.

As this 'extremely long running misunderstanding' continues, I have decided that you don't really want me to be honest and up front with you. You would rather "refuse to understand" (as you have put it to me.)

Yes it is true that I do not know you. So why would I automatically believe everything you say? And how could I possibly know what might offend you? You don't want to cut me any slack at all, and I suspect it is because I don't play your game the way you expect me to.

< Below will be my 'masculine side' speaking and he doesn't much care about being understood or about what people think.>

You mentioned that I rub you the wrong way because I remind you of your EX, so this is not my battle and I am not going to continue engagement. All of my honest efforts to clear things up with you and accomplish some sort of communication and understanding just leads to more bull shit, so I am throwing in the towel. Whatever the problem is, its clearly a personal one. I have apologized, I have explained, and I have been honest. Now I am done.

nycindie

01-28-2011, 08:19 PM

. . . a dick-zillion times . . .
Oh! I'm stealing that phrase! You truly have a way with words. Heh-heh.

NeonKaos

01-28-2011, 08:59 PM

Oh! I'm stealing that phrase! You truly have a way with words. Heh-heh.

Well "dick-zillion" sounded better than any of the slang words for "vagina".

Magdlyn

01-28-2011, 09:42 PM

I dunno, I think twat-zillion sounds pretty good.

redpepper

01-28-2011, 09:56 PM

*warning neon and others that prefer my posts are edited... I realize this isn't. My phone is biting the dust and I am getting a new one tonight, sooo there* *i know the term is dick zillion btw* excuse me dinged, this is a hyjack, you and I have talked via PM so I'm going to assume you don't mind me clearing something up that I have wondered about.

This is what I get from todays posts on here. My repetative posts about MY point of view are seen as judgmental by some posters that are regulars? If I write a fuck zillion of posts on casual sex as I see it or LDR's as I see it or "rules" as I see it then its seen differently than neon posting? This makes me some kind of "motherly" polyfi freak? *sarcsm* ;) fuuuck... :D I only do it because people ask the same shit over and over again and don't bother READING what has gone before. Everyday its the same threads started. Its the same everyday. If a thread doesn't have any sort of indication that my opinion is covered, I add it. Plain and simple. There is nothing more attached to it than what I am doing sorks for me. The formula I use for my poly works. I am not everyone, I am not wanting to be everyone. I am me and I only stay here because I appreciate and love hearing other peoples stories. I love hearing the diversity amongst my community. I like to meet new people, not because I want to be a "mother." for the record I don't identify as poly fi as I am not involved with a closed tribe. I am closed, but everyone else (except Mono of course) is open.

We are good magdlyn, we always have been in my eyes. You might be different from me, but I never judged you. I would appreciate no judgment in return. You and others brought me through some really hard times and I appreciate that. Please realize that when people go through shit they are not always able or don't always notice that they might come across as judgmental on line in their sarcasm. I am guilty of this for sure, which is why I let people know I am being sarcastic... And often don't even attempt trying to be funny. For some reason from me it sounds extra judgmental. I dunno.... These are just random thoughts coming from a woman who is really not doing so good right now, so bare with me.

NeonKaos

01-28-2011, 10:03 PM

I dunno, I think twat-zillion sounds pretty good.

You're right. I didn't think of "twat".

NeonKaos

01-28-2011, 10:11 PM

LovingRadiance

01-28-2011, 10:52 PM

These are just random thoughts coming from a woman who is really not doing so good right now, so bare with me.

Hugs, hugs, hugs, and a big kiss on the cheek.

I was sitting here perplexed thinking poly-fi? I didn't think that they were in a poly-fi dynamic.
Then I thought;....

just goes to show everyone has different definitions.

AH yes-that was the point! ;)

Seriously though-I think that in some ways you do come across as a poly-mother. Not the way you took it though.

I used to be a stripper. There was a "housemom" whose job it was to take care of the dancers, keep anyone from getting themselves into a dangerous situation, be sure we had what we needed to do our job safely.

You somewhat remind me of a "house mother" in that way. Always trying to help people avoid the pitfalls you've already experienced or witnessed in polyamory.
;)

XO

redpepper

01-29-2011, 04:16 AM

Maybe a title of "venting here" or "lots of sarcasm here" would help. :)

redpepper

01-29-2011, 04:23 AM

redpepper, i'm not sure what you mean by "prefer my posts are edited".

Speaking for myself, I don't think your posts come across as "judgmental". I do however, agree with Mags that sometimes it SEEMS like you have a knee-jerk reaction when someone mentions casual sex, LDR's, or what-have-you, but I have never seen you imply that what works for you must work for everyone else and is the "only" right way. In fact, the opposite seems to be the case.

I'm thinking that at some point, we'll move these "hijacky" posts over to the wank (Forum Sociology) thread.I meant that you have said before that it drives you crazy sometimes when people don't edit.

I HAD a knee jerk reaction to some threads that were a hot topic in my life. That is how I process.... I will have you know that I don't any more as its all been said before and nothing at this point holds any passion for me in the poly/swinging/open/fucking world... I couldn't give a shit about casual sex or anything really. Go fuck who ever you want peeps. RP doesn't give a shit! :p:D that was a joke.... now can we fucking get over it!? FUUUUUUUCK. I'm so sick of hearing that I have some opinion about shit that I don't give a fuck about! GAUD! It's done now okay....?!:eek: thank you...... that was a vent folks and now I'm done.

yes, moving this to the sociology thread is an excellent idea.... have fun with that as I won't be here for a couple of days. I've lost my patience.... please don't bother posting to me here or in PM, I'm not interested any more in anything anyone has to say. K? thanks. I'm not mad, just WAAAAY over whelmed with real life and this is really not that important to me. Have a good weekend. Catch you on Sunday... or something.

NeonKaos

01-29-2011, 04:32 AM

I meant that you have said before that it drives you crazy sometimes when people don't edit.

I don't recall saying that about "editing", but I have said it about formatting. It also drives me crazy when people don't make an effort to read the basic stuff on the forum (and I can tell when they have and have not done so just by the phrasing of their sentences).

What I really fail to see is how the focus has suddenly been turned on me this time.

Moving posts to wank thread in T-minus 5.... 4... 3.... 2...

MrFarFromRight

04-18-2011, 10:13 AM

I found (and find) this site to be an oasis from the outside world, where I can be (and have been) accused of being immature, unable to commit, incapable of “real” love, all because of my belief in the possibility of an infinite love, without jealousy or possessiveness. An oasis of [not 100% equal-minded, but at least] people sympathetic to my choice of how to live my love. There is an encouraging interchange of information, advice, expressions of support (and commiseration when things are going screwy), and interesting life-stories that is refreshing after the standard heterosexual, monogamous near-monopoly on views about relationships that one finds in the desert beyond this oasis.

It therefore comes as something of a disillusion and disappointment to see a certain amount of sniping, point-scoring, false assumptions, and hasty jumping to conclusions that goes on in this forum. I have witnessed examples of this aimed at myself and at others... and I don’t like to see either.

have disappeared completely. And I find that a shame, because they were likely the very people who most needed a feeling of support through their difficult process of adapting to polyamory.]

But perhaps it would be easier to describe what I’m getting at if I cite my first-hand experience. [It doesn’t devastate me, but it gets me down.] And please don't believe that I think that "I'm being got at!": I notice this sort of thing being aimed at others. I'm just using my 1st-hand experience as an example.

After writing about my viewpoint on certain matters, I’ve had (not often but occasionally) the feeling that I’m being attacked. Sometimes my original words were not chosen with enough care, sometimes after a great deal of thought (it can take me up to an hour to compose a single posting)... but then were misunderstood anyway, and my motives or judgement were called into question.

There is a big difference between the spirited debate of ideas and slinging personal criticisms around.

On occasion I’ve posted a playful or ironically-meant comment (I’m a semi-professional clown, and something of a joker by nature. IMHO a laugh now and then doesn’t hurt.) I have tried to remember – when I’ve made these playful comments – to make it obvious that that’s what they were, sometimes by the use of smileys :p:rolleyes:, sometimes by obviously playful phrases (e.g. “... but then, I’m a pervert.” / “Don’t let me tempt you down this path of perversion.” Both in reference to my personal valuing of cuddles and emotional intimacy over “hot sex”.) Often my comments have been accepted in the joking spirit in which they were intended. A few times they appear to have been taken totally seriously – and badly.

Other times I have offered a completely sincere opinion and it has gone down very badly. At times, other members have attempted to belittle me for the views that I hold. [I also think that members should be very careful about using comments like: “Oh, you’re so young!” – or “inexperienced” (implied: “and therefore relatively clueless”). Although this one hasn’t been applied to me on here, I remember - from when I was young - how little this persuaded me to heed the advice or the comment being given.]

And other difficulties / criticisms have arisen when:

a) I haven’t been conversant with the special polyamory use of language. In polyamory, certain normal (outer-world) words are used, but have a whole new meaning in polyamory use. An obvious example is “unicorn”. This one caused me wonder when I first came across it, but no real grief. But how about “veto”? I’ve just looked it up in a Collins dictionary and found: “1. The power to prevent legislation or action proposed by others; prohibition [...] 4. To refuse consent to (a proposal, esp. a government bill) 5. to prohibit, ban, or forbid: [I]her parents vetoed her trip.” On one thread, the OP appeared to me to have used the word in this wider sense. When I commented, also using the word in this sense [asking – in a joking way – a very serious question: “What’s the difference between ‘vetoing’ and ‘setting clear boundaries’?”], I felt under attack, treated like an absolute arsehole, for messing about, playing with words – the assumption: that I should know perfectly well that ‘veto’ (in polyamory circles) means exclusively “forbidding your partner to have a relationship with such-and-such a person” (or also, even worse, with anybody).

There is a polyamory glossary on this board that is already 5 pages long. It’s very useful, as a reference work, to look up a word of which you’re not certain. I seriously doubt that many of you have read it through from start to finish. Should I have to search through it (because it’s constantly being added to and therefore isn’t in alphabetical order) every time I’m thinking of using a word like “veto” (or “house” or “car”), to make sure that it doesn’t mean something completely different on a polyamory forum? Should I be treated like an arsehole because I didn’t already know the polyamory meaning of every word? How many of you are aware that in Australia, they use the word “spoof” to mean “spunk”, “jism”? (And it’s quite likely that my aged mother only knows one meaning of “spunk”: courage or spirit. [While looking that up in my dictionary, I find that Collins doesn’t even give the sexual connotation of “spud”!])

b) I have been accused of not reading the whole of a thread before making my ill-informed comment. It’s true that I don’t always read the whole thread first when I want to reply to another person’s comment that has caught my eye. Is this forbidden? Is there some rule that we’re not allowed to comment on any particular thread until we’ve read right through it? In that case, I’m either going to have to withdraw from this forum or limit my replies to short new threads and those in which I have a very special – almost obsessive – interest, because my internet time is limited... and some of the threads on here are dozens of pages long. [In actual fact – and ironically – the one time this accusation was made of me was when I had read through that particular thread with great attention. For some people “ill-informed” is simply synonymous with “disagreeing with my opinion”.]

c) I have been accused of playing around with formatting, of being more interested in formatting than in the matter at hand. I do tend to use underlinings more often than most members. But that’s because the written word carries no inflection of the voice, and I wish to draw attention to a particular word, or let you hear (in your head) that I’m emphasising this word. This criticism has been made by (among others) one of the moderators. If it really bugs you so much, perhaps you should suggest - in one of your policy meetings – the removal of the formatting option. (Either that or just ignore my formatting...)

d) There are people who just can’t let well-enough alone. If I have been criticised for something, accept the validity of the criticism, and apologise, it’s rather galling that somebody else jumps in to criticise me for what I’ve already apologised for!

Oh, I could go on and on. (A justifiable criticism of me would be that I do go on for too long.)

In a nutshell: “You want people to listen to what you’re saying? Then be careful how you say it!”
Advice and constructive criticism can be very helpful (and I'd be the first to recognise this)... but not if they're not listened to because of the tone in which they're spoken (or written).

What I’d like to see is that on this thread – of all places – we were all willing to “walk two moons in each other’s moccasins” before we jump to conclusions about what the other person means... or feels. Perhaps even better, maybe we should all take off our shoes and touch each other, bare foot sole to bare foot sole, in a ritual of mutual acceptance which, in Kurt Vonnegut’s early novel “Cat’s Cradle” was declared by the dictator to be punishable by death.

MrFarFromRight

04-18-2011, 10:18 AM

To forestall accusations that I’m a hypocrite, that I myself am guilty of attacking or belittling others on this board, allow me to state:

1) I have attacked rather vigorously certain aspects of a religion that some members hold dear. It’s the one that I was brought up in, and its mainstream interpretation (in my opinion, an ugly corruption of the original, beautiful teachings) caused me untold damage (I was self-loathing, border-line suicidal as a child) that took years to recover from. In a later post I apologised for my outburst. As far as I am aware, at no time did I criticise any person on this board for following this religion. I did heavily criticise the established hierarchy of the religion for betraying its origins. I stand by that still.

2) I have poked fun at a couple of hypotheses put forward in a book that several members hold in the highest esteem. In that post, I proposed another hypothesis of my own and invited anybody who wished to to poke fun at it. (“I have a right to propose my own whacko theories, don’t I?”) I also introduced readers to an alternative hypothesis in another book that I hold in the highest esteem. But, as I wrote, “Ya pays yer money and ya takes yer choice”. It is my view that everyone should be free to believe whatever they want. Again, I don’t feel that I attacked any member personally.

3) I expressed a personal opinion that BDSM practice was a symptom of imbalance, that a truly healthy, well-adjusted person would get pleasure neither in inflicting nor in receiving pain, would not feel the need to either dominate or be dominated. But I emphasised that this was my personal feeling, and added: “Different strokes for different folks”. Once again, I don’t feel that I attacked anybody personally over this. In fact, the best friend that I’ve made on this board – the only one to whom I’ve revealed my true identity [not counting my true identity Mister Pedant Man, which knowledge is open to anybody on here] and to whom, after reading several of their excellent posts, I sent a PM declaring my “undying love” - is into BDSM.

If anybody feels that I have attacked or attempted to belittle them in public, I would like to take this opportunity to apologise and to assure you that that was never my intention:(. (It’s just that I can be awfully clumsy.)

Misunderstandings are bound to occur. Let’s be generous with each other and not jump to conclusions or be too hasty: either to take offence or to criticise...

GroundedSpirit

04-19-2011, 01:22 PM

Hi Far,

I'd like to toss in a comment or three on some of your post.

As someone who has been with this forum for......seemingly ages, I've had an opportunity to see much of what you're speaking of, see it discussed, addressed etc. I can only say this. The 'overall' tone and atmosphere of the forum has improved quite dramatically since it's early days.
You have to keep in mind, the contributors are human too - and subject to all the same strengths and failings, moods and opinions of the species. Same for the moderators.
So you need to expect a certain amount of errors and 'from the hip comments' - same as you would in a live public setting.

Specifically..................

.............

It therefore comes as something of a disillusion and disappointment to see a certain amount of sniping, point-scoring, false assumptions, and hasty jumping to conclusions that goes on in this forum. I have witnessed examples of this aimed at myself and at others... and I don’t like to see either.

Interesting. I don 't see much of this now (sniping & point scoring). Jumping to conclusions....well, see my above comment on human nature.

.................
Whereas some other members – especially some who were new to this forum - have obviously been stung by carelessly-worded comments directed at them. Some [of these members] have disappeared completely. And I find that a shame, because they were likely the very people who most needed a feeling of support through their difficult process of adapting to polyamory.]

It's going to happen. The words may not always have been as 'careless' as they were 'blunt'. Dealing with such approaches is a communication skill worth developing.

.............

After writing about my viewpoint on certain matters, I’ve had (not often but occasionally) the feeling that I’m being attacked. Sometimes my original words were not chosen with enough care, sometimes after a great deal of thought (it can take me up to an hour to compose a single posting)... but then were misunderstood anyway, and my motives or judgement were called into question.

There's that key word - 'feeling' ! Seems we hear that a lot :)
Search and study up on a lot of discussion on feeling vs fact.

Misunderstanding is common. You later clarify the reason yourself (part of at least) in discussing the whole context/vocabulary conundrum. And sometimes it does take some seemingly wasteful posts to clear those up. But that generally happens.

Calling your 'motives' or 'judgement' into question ? Isn't that part of the whole point of such places and discussions ? To get an outside viewpoint ? Get used to it :)
Another opinion may be more accurate - or less. It's ONLY another opinion. Consider all and either accept or reject them as having some substance. Then move on.

There is a big difference between the spirited debate of ideas and slinging personal criticisms around.

Word of advice here.
Debate often encompasses criticism. But you have to understand that it's ideas, concepts, opinions etc that are being criticized. NOT the speaker ! Common mistake that leads to a lot of wasted dialog.

Other times I have offered a completely sincere opinion and it has gone down very badly. At times, other members have attempted to belittle me for the views that I hold.
Are you sure ? Was it "you" or the 'views" ? See above comment.

[I also think that members should be very careful about using comments like: “Oh, you’re so young!” – or “inexperienced” (implied: “and therefore relatively clueless”). Although this one hasn’t been applied to me on here, I remember - from when I was young - how little this persuaded me to heed the advice or the comment being given.]

I can see where this could be valid. We do deal with all ages and experience levels here. I don't like to see those type of responses either. But we do see a certain amount of questions, opinions etc that really are born from nothing more than youth and inexperience. They are SO basic and fundamental about relationship dynamics that they aren't even about poly per se. I choose to just ignore (not respond) to such posts but maybe that's just as bad ? But really there must be better 101 level places out there to get answers to some of that stuff ?

You did go on more.

I'm going to stop here.

GS

MrFarFromRight

04-19-2011, 03:46 PM

Word of advice here.
Debate often encompasses criticism. But you have to understand that it's ideas, concepts, opinions etc that are being criticized. NOT the speaker ! Common mistake that leads to a lot of wasted dialog. [...]
GSI have no objection to people holding different views and expressing them enegetically. In fact, that's something that I really appreciate. It's the attitude that sometimes comes across (e.g. know-it-all, "I'm more experienced than you, so just you listen!", condescending, or aggressive) that rankles. As I wrote:In a way, I prefer to have them aimed at me, because – although I take criticism seriously (An acquaintance once said to me: “I give you 10 out of 10 for really listening to criticism and considering its validity, without rejecting it offhand.”) – I have learned to have a certain faith in myself, a self-security that means that I am not devastated by criticism. [...] Whereas some other members – especially some who were new to this forum - have obviously been stung by carelessly-worded comments directed at them. Some [of these members] have disappeared completely. And I find that a shame, because they were likely the very people who most needed a feeling of support through their difficult process of adapting to polyamory.If, as you write,As someone who has been with this forum for......seemingly ages, I've had an opportunity to see much of what you're speaking of, see it discussed, addressed etc. I can only say this. The 'overall' tone and atmosphere of the forum has improved quite dramatically since it's early days.I guess that I should feel lucky that I didn't join until it had "improved quite dramatically"!:rolleyes:;)