I don't want to be here... [Archive]

Matilda

06-21-2010, 03:08 PM

Actually, I don't want to be anywhere, right now, because of the amount of hurt and pain and anguish I'm in.

I waited for Mister Right. I 'kept' myself for marriage, and even though I was really popular and funny and bright and pretty, I always declined the boyfriend/dating thing, because I wanted to meet "the One" and halve the fairytale. When I found him, and was absolutely sure he was "the One" we got married and started a family. My first, true, only love.

The thing is, everything he promised, every vow, doesn't apply now.
I kept my end of the 'contract' in every way, and year after year he succeeded in breaking our marriage down piece by piece. I wasn't enough. All of my love and all of my loyalty and fidelity and support wasn't enough for him. He's decided his poly by nature, and the fact that he's PRETENDS to do the monogamy thing isn't a comfort to me in the slightest - it just makes everything we were meant to build together more of a sham. Every times he's lied to me, cheated on me, broken my heart...I've put on a brave face and 'supported him' through it and BELIEVED him when he swore every time that it was a mistake, a once-off, it-meant-nothing, I'm everything to him.
Til the next time.

So now he's come out and 'decided' that he's NOT a cruel, mean, liar - he's 'just' poly...and I'm mean to be heartened by this in some way. I'm meant to think "oh, that's okay then, I KNOW about it this time, so I have no reason to be upset" - when I'm told he wants me to be happy and he wants to spend his life with me as his "primary" I'm meant to think "oh yay!"

I know he's sorry for all the hurt he's caused me, and is causing me still.
I know he loves me and wants me to be his wife.
I even know he'd be willing to PRETEND he was happy "just" with me if that's what it took to "keep" me and the facade of the perfect marriage.

But how am I meant to put on a smile and go along with that when I know in my heart that I'm not enough for him, he wants something else? I sacrificed EVERYthing for this man's happiness; contact with my family, a career, a bank-account, a social-life of my own... everything, because that's what he wanted, to have "just me" all to himself. And I did it. Everything from my virginity to my name - because I believed him. I look back on it now and I feel gutted. I feel empty. I feel duped and used and cheap and pathetic and I just want the pain to stop.

(Edited to add: we've been together 15 years, I'm early 30's)

MonoVCPHG

06-21-2010, 03:48 PM

There is no way I could say anything to ease what you are feeling at the moment. That being said, remember that you are an individual and have strenght and independence and a right to be loved the way you want to be. It sounds like this has happened very recently and that usually means that you can barely focus on anything but pain. There is positive possibilities in this though. There is the opportunity to open your own heart up to others if you wish, to explore others with the support of a partner who should understand. I know this sounds really weak coming from me but there can be benefits and believe it or not a possible deepening of your relationship as well.

Understand that regardless of anything else, you are not in an inexscapable trap as you may feel. The idea of sharing him is probably as hurtful as the idea of him "faking" monogamy. There are options available for both of you to be healthy. Both of you deserve to be happy, loved and healthy how you want/need to be. Do not avoid this and talk. Cry scream or whatever but both of you need to be honest and strong. And remember that he is in pain too.

Take care
Mono

NeonKaos

06-21-2010, 04:09 PM

I sacrificed EVERYthing for this man's happiness; contact with my family, a career, a bank-account, a social-life of my own... everything, because that's what he wanted, to have "just me" all to himself.

This does not sound healthy, especially the parts about not having a social life of your own or contact with your family. The most disturbing part is where you say you did all that because it's what HE wanted.

I will go out on a limb here and suggest that the issues in your marriage have very little, if anything, to do with polyamory. It sounds more like you are a hostage than an equal partner in this marriage. Your husband gets to have "just you all to himself" but he is "just poly" and therefore not a control freak?

Having said that much, it would be unfair for me to go on and on about this without hearing his side of the story.

AutumnalTone

06-21-2010, 07:14 PM

There's a lot of information missing....

By "pretending" to be mono, do you mean he tells you he's being monogamous and then he turns around and cheats on you?

If that's the case, then he's not poly--he's simply a cheater, a bad monogamist. Trying to excuse his cheating by saying he's "just poly" is so much bullshit. Simply fucking around isn't poly, particularly if he said he wasn't going to do that.

I agree with YGirl--it appears there are a whole bunch of issues that need to be addressed in your marriage and polyamory has nothing to do with those.

It sounds really painful from here and I have to wonder how it's lasted so long. I hope you can find some way out of the mess in short order.

Matilda

06-21-2010, 08:39 PM

Oh. I'm so sorry, I'm very new to this, and I'm probably not being very coherent. He isn't physically screwing around. Yet, at any rate.

There have been numerous times in our marriage when he's formed 'relationships' that were based on phonecalls/online chatting/webcamming in an explicit way - each time, before he physically 'went through' with meeting up, I realised what was being planned, or he came clean and told me what he had the opportunity to do, but WOULDN'T do because he didn't want to hurt me. And now he's trying to be 'honest' and 'open' with me about his needs and wants.

I mean by "pretending" he's mono, he's now saying he's willing to go along and pretend and act like he's happy and content and satisfied with being in a traditional 'couple' married relationship with me, so everyone on the outside knows nothing about how unhappy he is having to 'settle' with just being monogamous with one person (me).

This 'poly' revelation is recent, and I'm still trying to understand it myself- but from where we are now, he knows full well that I'm definately completely monogamy-orientated myself, and his way of being 'kind' with this is to suggest that he'll go along with that charade if that's what it takes to keep me?

I never wanted to be his Primary. I wanted to be his Only.
Hell, that's the reason I married him, I believed I was his Everything.

The problem with that, of course, is that I now know I'm not enough for him. I guess part of me knew that 2 years into the marriage, but he swore blind I was his everything and he never wanted anyone else but me, he couldn't live with out me... and I believed him.

I know full well I'm in a ridiculous position now.
I also know I have myself to blame for believing him, and assuming that just because I was totally committed to our vows ("and forsaking all others keep thee only unto him/her") that he would be too.

idealist

06-21-2010, 11:55 PM

Welcome Matilda. Sorry you are hurting!!
I have a few comments.

I waited for Mister Right. I 'kept' myself for marriage, and even though I was really popular and funny and bright and pretty, I always declined the boyfriend/dating thing, because I wanted to meet "the One" and halve the fairytale. When I found him, and was absolutely sure he was "the One" we got married and started a family. My first, true, only love.

The issue with this is that you based your expectations of what life would be like for you on a fairytale. Fairytales are not real.

I'm going to re-post a quote by Ariakas below because he said it well and it applies here, I believe.

On a side note, and only something I have observed on occasion. The mono in a married couple with one side going poly has an uphill battle. The thing I have observed, and this isn't always the case, is that the mono tends to be too reliant on the partnership instead of realizing there are other relationships out there. So many I have seen online, have no friends outside of the monogamous relationship. This creates a real problem when the poly person starts going out. They are so dependent on the relationship that they feel loneliness. They start to go out and build other friendships and that helps. But then what? While processing their partner being poly they could possibly process it for themselves. I wonder how things would be for them if they had a social life outside of the monogamous relationship, if they had friends to lean on in and weren't so dependent on the primary relationship.

It also leaves me wondering, how many poly identified people go poly because of that dependency. They do it as a fantasy or escape from being the "one and only"...thats a craptastic amount of pressure to put on one person.

MonoVCPHG

06-22-2010, 01:06 AM

The issue with this is that you based your expectations of what life would be like for you on a fairytale. Fairytales are not real.

And yet lots of people achieve this. Lots of people think poly and loving more than one person is a fairy tale as well. Sorry Idealist, I got triggered by the defeatest tone in this comment. Knowledge is based on experience and often shaped by our own wants.

Matilda

06-22-2010, 08:31 AM

Thank you for your replies.

Part of the rub of this is that my husband put himself forward as wanting the fairytale too- he literally used metaphors like "knight in shining armour" and "one true love" and ''destiny'' and ''happily ever after'' the whole time to bring me around to believing he thought and felt the way I did. So, now I feel really stupid, really duped, and really naive.

In regards to Ariakas' points that Idealist quoted (I agree and they are valid points and I take them on board readily)...the problem is that I don't HAVE that circle of friends and support closeby because my husband saw to it that I could not make friends outside of him. I was to be his everything, and he has always refused to 'share' me or my time with anyone (I don't mean in a sexual way, I mean coffee/chat/go to a show/go out dancing friendships.

Any time anyone tried to get close to me, my husband shut it down and either scared them off or insisted I not 'pursue' the friendship on the grounds that he didn't need or want anyone else in his life, and if I loved him as much, then I shouldn't either.

Obviously, looking back on it now, it smacks of emotional and psychological abuse and serves to make me feel like more of an fool. I just feel like I'm drowning.

SchrodingersCat

06-22-2010, 09:26 AM

Any time anyone tried to get close to me, my husband shut it down and either scared them off or insisted I not 'pursue' the friendship on the grounds that he didn't need or want anyone else in his life, and if I loved him as much, then I shouldn't either.

Obviously, looking back on it now, it smacks of emotional and psychological abuse and serves to make me feel like more of an fool. I just feel like I'm drowning.

I'm glad you said it so that I don't have to.

You're no fool, though. Because you've seen it for yourself now that you've had the chance. Abusers are very good at manipulation and making you see what they want you to see. It's not your fault that you've been treated this way.

You need to get yourself and your children out of this situation. The control he exerts over you will extend over them. They will grow up believing this kind of relationship is normal, that this is the way husbands are supposed to treat their wives.

I know how daunting that sounds: you have no money (he controls the accounts), no job (he wouldn't let you get one), no friends (wouldn't let you have them) and you've lost contact with your family.

Are your family members still alive though? I would bet that if you call them up and tell them you have an abusive husband and you need to get out right away, they'll help you get started.

I'm going to end by reiterating that you are not a fool, you are not cheap, you are not pathetic. You are a woman who wanted something special and was taken in by a master manipulator who told you exactly what you wanted to hear.

Matilda

06-22-2010, 01:23 PM

For good or ill, I love my husband.
I feel a responsibility for him, and a duty towards him.
When he senses he is being abandoned...in any way...it sets off a chain of events that leads to hurt and upset and distress for everyone around him.
I can see how things are, and I'm looking at our relationship through new eyes, like a veil has been lifted somehow - and I feel it cannot continue on with the framework that is currently in place.

I'm scared of hurting him. I'm scared of upsetting the children.
I'm scared of being 'alone' - I'm scared of possible revenge he would seek were I to rock the boat. I'm scared of 'letting him down' - I'm scared of blowing the whistle, I'm scared of everyone outside of us as a couple KNOWING what's been going on all these years. I'm scared of everything.

I want him to be happy and feel loved and wanted and respected for who he is as a person...but I want to be happy and feel loved and respected for who I am as a person...and I don't know what to do. And it terrifies me.

Ariakas

06-22-2010, 01:34 PM

I can't say anymore than has been said. All i can do is send support over the internet.

Be strong and protect yourself and the kids. :)

Matilda

06-22-2010, 03:41 PM

Ariakas

06-22-2010, 03:56 PM

Following on from my tentative 'introduction' about not wanting to be here (and believe me, I don't!) I realise that I'm inclined to just...heartspill, and I think that might help the situation.

To give a synposis, the saga that is now playing out can be summarised as
Fairytale-Princess-Wannabe married very young to a man who swore he was her One-True-Love and Knight-in-Shining-Armour. After a decade and a half of heartbreak, lying, deceit, manipulation, emotional and psychological abuse, control issues, mindgames, etc. from him, he turned around one day and announced the root of all his behaviour was that he's "poly".

Basing a relationship on a lie isn't the beginning of a healthy relationship :)

I love my husband. I want him to be happy. I know he is sorry for all the hurt he's inflicted on me, and I don't want to be The Poor Victim in this, so I'm taking on the responsibility of verbalising my confusion and my frustration in the hope that I can work through this, and maybe if I can get through it, learn, grow, be more whole and full and happy as a result of this change and learning process...it will be a good thing to take from the mess my marriage has made of me.

Right now, I'm upset, and I feel betrayed and confused.
Right now, I need to figure out who I am.

Thats healthy. Figure out who you are and what you want.

I want to be able to 'support' my husband, I want to be a friend to him and someone to lean on, but right now I don't know who 'me' is.

Ok, having read your other thread, there is a lot of poor behaviour in your relationship. Can it be fixed, sure if you want it I suppose. I honestly think you need to seek counselling, both of you. Your relationship needs help from the ground up.

Your foundation to begin a poly relationship is wrecked with havok. You need to build the base in order to potentially ad on. Otherwise, you not only risk being hurt but anyone he includes does to. I say he, because reading your other post, you have no choice in the matter, *currently*.

I get...angry at men like your husband. The insecurity he shows by not allowing you to have friends, not allowing you to live outside the relationship, yet taking that step himself. Its the sign of a truly selfish coward. Your relationship is badly unbalanced.

I'm scared of hurting him. I'm scared of upsetting the children.
I'm scared of being 'alone' - I'm scared of possible revenge he would seek were I to rock the boat. I'm scared of 'letting him down' - I'm scared of blowing the whistle, I'm scared of everyone outside of us as a couple KNOWING what's been going on all these years. I'm scared of everything.

I ripped this from your other post. Why should you live life in fear of anything? If this is truly how you feel, and you still want to support this relationship, seek counselling, but be aware of your options. Be very aware of what you have the power to do. Do not feel stuck to a relationship like this...

Here is a poem to mull over.

There's a little game
Here is how it goes
Bullshit's like a river
It starts and then it flows
If you are afraid
That you have been neglected
Let me make sure
That you're feeling well protected
My arms are all around you
Please ignore the grip
I'll tell you that you're safe
Just don't try givin' me the slip
I think that you are vulnerable
I think that you are weak
I'll tell you who to play with
For myself I will you keep
I am your lord and master
You will never run away
Although the door is always open
Your mind will always stay

Matilda

06-22-2010, 05:40 PM

Thank you for your reply and for the 'topical' poem.
I find I relate very readily to it, and that troubles me on one level and comforts me on another...I think seeing it writing, phrased like that, is like seeing it through a lens that focuses the image more for me.

I have a lot of thinking and talking and feeling to do. I know this.

SourGirl

06-22-2010, 08:05 PM

A few things ;

1- Announcing ones self as 'poly' is never a excuse for previous, or ongoing shitty behavior. Its up to you, the woman who knows him, to decide if thats a cop-out, or if he really was a putz because he was 'hiding' himself.

@. - This is a question. With how he has treated you, and your anger and resentment because of it,..Do you really want to be 'supportive' of him doing this to another person ?
Or, would you rather be 'supportive' by telling him to learn new ways of being, make himself the best person he can be, and then look at the idea of 'dating' ,..LATER ON ?
Which do you think is the right choice ?

One thing about being 'poly',....We are poly, in thought, regardless if we get to act on it or not.
People who want to go out and bump uglies, and worry about the ramifications later, are not practicing polyamory.

Its such a core part of yourself, (when you are actually polyamorous) that you want to be the best person you can be to the people around you.

You want them to enjoy your company, as much as you enjoy theirs.
-------

If he wants to become one of those stereotypical polygamists,..well, thats a whole `nother thing.

Anyhow, just something to chew on. Ariakas has some good points as well. Think long, think hard. Don`t be scared of your own version of the truth.

Good luck.

idealist

06-23-2010, 01:57 AM

And yet lots of people achieve this. Lots of people think poly and loving more than one person is a fairy tale as well. Sorry Idealist, I got triggered by the defeatest tone in this comment. Knowledge is based on experience and often shaped by our own wants.

Sorry to trigger anything. And I have to respectfully disagree. It is not defeatism, but reality in my opinion. And, at the risk of triggering anything else (because I respect you so much) I dare say that even though you are mono, you are not living the "fairy tale romance" that I'm talking about and the one (it seems to me) that Matilda has internalized.

I got this from Pepper Mint.

"When we are talking about the perfect ideal of monogamy, the other person in the union is The One. What does it mean to be The One? Well, first off, there are no others. Which is to say: no affairs, no adultery, no sly
backward glances after passing someone cute on the sidewalk. Definitely no flirting, aside from flirting with The One. Sex only with The One. In fact, proper devotion to The One really requires that sexual and romantic desires only go towards them. Finding other people attractive is a no-no.
This aspect of idealized monogamy extends to activities that may not even involve another person. Pornography? Erotica? Desire for The One should theoretically overshadow any need for such things. Similarly, while most of us probably consider regular masturbation to be perfectly healthy (relationship or no) it has no place in the land of fairy-tale monogamy. In fairy tales, The One is all that you need to be fulfilled.

Second, it is really best if there were no others before The One. While some romantic comedies use the decision process for fun and conflict, in many other movies The One is also The First. Pride and Prejudice is an example of this. Virginity is implied by this particular aspect of fairy-tale monogamy. It is best if both are virgins, though of course the virginity of women somehow ends up being more important, as a direct result of cultural sexism.
We cannot discuss before without describing after. “’Til death do you part” is in most marriage vows for a reason. Even after death has in fact parted you, it is somewhat unseemly to take another lover or spouse.

Marriage vows bring up the subject of marriage itself. In fairy-tale romance of any sort, marriage is a must, and early marriage is best. Think Romeo and Juliet. I am trying to build a picture here. When we think of the ideal of monogamy, it is a single love in a lifetime. It is a single desire. It is an attraction that is so intense it becomes the single attraction in the course of one’s life.

Of course, most people are fully aware that they will not be living this type of idealized monogamy. I suspect that most people do not actually want this life.
However, I contend that fairy-tale monogamy is in a sense always present in people’s heads. It forms a sort of reference point, a single shared idea across the culture. While representations of monogamy in culture are varied, the fact that a decent percentage of such representations use this idealized monogamy (even though it is usually considered to be impractical) tells us that this idealization has currency."

Ariakas

06-23-2010, 02:01 AM

fyi...the story continues here http://www.polyamory.com/forum/showthread.php?t=3050

MonoVCPHG

06-23-2010, 03:47 AM

I must admit Peppermint's article reflects a hyper monogamy expectation that I truly have never seen in people. You see bits of it but not this level of Walt Disney love.

Matilda

06-23-2010, 06:49 AM

I've woken up with a feeling of hopelessness.
Last night my husband and I spoke for a long time in great depth.
He's changed tactics again...now he is willing to put everything else he wants aside again, and simply focus on rebuilding the marriage.

The problem here is that I'm psychologically in a place where I see us as two people in a boat. The boat is sinking, having been repared by me, alone, over and over and over for the past 15 years. Now he wants to save the boat.
I want to save the people IN the boat. He doesn't understand the difference, or sees it as the same thing. He maintains that if the people in the boat are okay, then the boat is okay, or if the boat is still afloat, then the people inside are fine. I understand how crap the boat is, because I'm the one who has been putting it back together after every storm, and I know it's held together with sticky-tape and prayer at this stage...and I'm all out of sticky tape...and water is pouring in.

After months, no, years now, of refusing point blank to even consider marriage counselling, he now thinks it's a good idea. He is making dramatic changes in his routine and schedule to 'accomodate' the new awareness that he is now prioritising our relationship.

Fundamentally, I personally feel I should find me, make me whole, make me strong, make me a full person again and he should figure out who he is and what he wants ASIDE of 'the marriage' and fix whatever's missing in him so he starts 'owning' his jealousies and obsessive behaviours...and I fel we should be mutually supportive of one another in this process.

He's looking at this, and coming at it from what I feel is an unhelpful angle.
I've read and read and read and thought and thought and thought, and have come to certain realisations that I don't like but I do accept.

I'm not the marriage. I'm a person in the marriage, and that marriage is very, very broken because of things I cannot control. But I should be responsible for me, I should be allowed to make me happy, and I would like very much for my husband to be happy - but as a person too, but I don't believe he is willing to change his viewpoint at the moment. How that is to be achieved is anyone's guess.

catbird

06-23-2010, 08:30 AM

Matilda, the boat metaphor can only be taken so far. The reason your husband is now acting like this possibly is because you've given off new indications that you're feeling independent and want to cut loose from him.

I think getting away from him for a while is a good idea. For once let him come to you. For once you be hard to get for him. It's not like he's never turned away from you. Being poly is not the same thing as cheating on one's wife. Polyamory is always honest and above board. Polyamory is not happening yet in this marriage no matter what your husband wants to think.

Matilda, you've been through enough. Time to not go through anything anymore.

Matilda

06-23-2010, 10:42 AM

*sigh*
I hear you, and the logical, practical side of me agrees.
I'm 'the nice one' though...a lot of who I am of myself is tied up with how indentify myself - and sometimes, yes, that is to my own detriment. I have a sometimes foolishly high standard for behaviour and ethics and morals, and because I myself 'do the right thing' by everyone else the whole time, I end up doing the martyr thing until I have nothing left for myself.

I know that's unhealthy. I know it's wrong to give and give and give until you yourself run dry, but it's part of how I am. I feel 'safe' in the knowledge that no matter how horrible someone else has been to me, I've not stepped on them or fought back or made them feel less or small, just to make myself feel okay about things. At night, I can sleep because I don't have a guilty conscience, I know I haven't done wrong by anyone (apart from myself).

In all fairness, I have an angel-complex. It can be annoying too, I know this, because I can come across as being holier-than-thou or preachy, I was like that even as a small child. I have the need to be "good". I hold on tightly to my own integrity, I 'behave' myself when nobody's watching too, because I'D know if I did something that was less-than-right-for-me. I don't ever expect or demand anyone to live by my set-of rules, because my sense of right and wrong is very black and white, and the human nature is shades of gray a lot of the time. I'm perfectly fine with all of that. I don't have the right or wish to impose my value-system on the world, either. It's just how I am.

In the situation I'm in now, I know my husband has been abusive, and I know I can't continue on in the same way. But I don't want to hurt him, I don't want to pull away and leave him, essentially, stranded. I do everything for the man, and I have done since we met. I 'mind' him, I'm always there to run back to, I'm the safehaven, the ever-forgiving-always-supportive one. But I've hit breaking point, so SOMETHING has to give.

We had another one of 'those' talks. I suppose I'm seeing him more objectively now, because I've take a little step back and tried to look at him as a man and not as "my husband" so much. A lot of who he is is very wrapped up in me. I asked him what made him happy - and he started listing off "cuddling with you", "watching tv with you" etc. So When I said "So...you enjoy cuddles and watching tv?" his reply was "No. I said 'with you' and I don't know how he's to heal and mend and grow as a person if he refuses to see anything as being worthwhile if I'm not bang smack in the middle of it. It's crazy, to be honest, because all through our relationship he has just...gone out to see a movie alone, or gone away the hang with his brother for the weekend, or stayed up all night by himself playing computergames or speaking in chatrooms to strangers...and enjoyed it WAY more than he would have had he chosen to spend that time with me, yet now, today when I ask him what makes him happy, he cannot think of one thing he'd find was fun or good-for-his-soul that doesn't rely 100% on me.

I don't understand it. I pull away so I can heal myself...and he clings on to me for dear life, yet for a decade and a half, I may as well have been on the moon for all he cared?

catbird

06-23-2010, 12:20 PM

Well, you have a lot of interesting relationship going on. A thought that strikes my mind is the expression "the two shall become one." In other words, when you marry in many real senses you become two halves of one person, yet each a complete person as well. I know that sounds very old fashioned.

The only one who can answer this question is you: for your pair-bond to be good and healthy - AND FOR YOU TO BE HAPPY IN IT AS YOU SHOULD BE - what has to happen?

Matilda

06-23-2010, 12:51 PM

*nods* Yes, you've hit the nail on the head there, Catbird.
The problem originated, I think, when we got married.
In the beginning of our relationship, I was a very full, complete, happy person - I was popular, hectic social life, close family network, hobbies and groups I was part of, lots of charity work - I was never home.

When we got married, I gave everything, and everyone up, little by little - I got further and further away from 'the old me' and started pouring all I was into the marriage and into my husband's needs and wants.

2 became one, certainly, but didn't remain 2. :o
I came to the relationship as a person, and now I'm like a hollow shell. I gave 'me' up to be part of this couple, none of my wants have been addressed in the slightest, none of my needs are met, and I'm left with a whole lot of heartache.

What needs to be done to 'fix' things is for me to be a whole person again.
He needs to be a full person without relying on me for everything, everything he needs done, everything he wants out of me, all of his entertainment, all of his support, all of his nurture, right down to his identity.

I want 'me' back...but I feel like I'm doing something mean or wrong or selfish because I feel that way.

Matilda

06-23-2010, 12:58 PM

Ariakas

06-23-2010, 05:01 PM

you can reverse this if you want it bad enough. You can work back to being individuals in a partnership. It will be amazingly freeing and binding in the same breath :) You both have to want it though, to heal and make the relationship strong :)...relationships get stronger with hard work...but it takes equal sides to make that hard work valid

Matilda

06-23-2010, 05:53 PM

Well it didn't happen overnight, so it can't be remedied overnight.

I astonish myself now by how pragmatic I sound, and then I remind myself that I used to lead a debating team back in school. I've lost so very much of me, and I don't like what I've become - even if it was what I believed, originally, were the right reasons.

I don't know what I want besides being happy again.
I want me to be happy. I want him to be happy.

AutumnalTone

06-23-2010, 06:50 PM

I've woken up with a feeling of hopelessness.
Last night my husband and I spoke for a long time in great depth.
He's changed tactics again...now he is willing to put everything else he wants aside again, and simply focus on rebuilding the marriage.

I once worked with a great many men who had that same behavior pattern--behving poorly then promising to make everything better before behaving badly. I worked as an officer in the state corrections system and those men were all convicted felons. It's not only classic behavior for felons, it's the modus operandus for abusers of every stripe.

Derbylicious

06-23-2010, 08:10 PM

Peppermint's article reflects the honest original expectations in my marriage.
Going into the relationship, that was what I was promised. That reads as ridiculous, I look back on it now and I laugh at myself for the naivity, but as a teenager I believed every bit of it, and I've always kept 'my' side of that contract 100%.

Even now, just talking about this here, feels like I've committed some huge sin, some huge crime against him, because I'm 'showing him up' by admitting "but that's not what happened" :(

Nothing you have said here sounds like you've committed any kind of sin. You came into a relationship as a teen. When we are young we don't know ourselves or enough about the world. I'm in my 30's too and have been with my husband for 16 years. I'm very fortunate that we've grown into a good match. Being that we were together as young as we were though it could have very easily turned out far differently.

I think at the time we got together that we both believed in the fairy tale as well. As things turned out though monogamy isn't what works for either of us. The difference between how we have ended up and where you have ended up is that we have always talked about everything all the way along. There have been hard times when I have wished that I was all he needed (honestly though that would be a lot of pressure).

As for cutting you off from any other social relationships that screams insecurity to me. I'm wondering if he's worried that somewhere deep down you are capable of having more than one relationship too and that somehow he wouldn't measure up. I'd ask him about this if I were you and I would also ask him theoretically how he would feel about you taking another lover (regardless of if you're actually interested in pursuing one at the moment or not).

If you have children you both need to be working on showing them what a healthy relationship is. Children tend to imitate what they see their parents doing when they grow up and get into relationships. This might mean that you both go to individual counselling and couples counselling or if things really aren't going to work out for the 2 of you it might mean going your separate ways and building healthy relationships for your children to emulate. Ask yourself honestly if you would want your children to end up living the way you are now.

I'm sorry that this post is sounding a little harsh. I'm concerned about you and I want to see you do what is healthy for you. The first thing on that list is to find yourself. It's easier said than done. Being a half of a couple since you were basically a kid (I've been there too) you tend to give up your own identity and become a part of the other person. I only really found myself once my husband joined the navy, we moved, and I stared from scratch finding my own life. Was it hard? Absolutely! Would I trade the experience to have my old, uncomplicated, undefined self back? Never!

-Derby

Matilda

06-23-2010, 08:38 PM

Thank you, Derby. I've read your post over a few times, and I hear what you're saying and appreciate where you're coming from.

Edward

06-23-2010, 09:58 PM

You've described the classic spousal abuser in your post. Not physically abusive, but by making you feel completely dependent on him and getting to agree to no outside social contact (which is unnatural for anyone, poly or mono) you've allowed him to gain emotional control of the relationship. This doesn't make you stupid or gullible; manipulative people have a natural edge because they're willing to intentionally manipulate others, whereas most of us have accepted the idea that manipulating others is wrong.

Contact your family. You need some emotional support, and families are willing to provide that. You need a lifeline, someone other than the internet to pour out your problems and worries to, and families will listen. You need ideas on what to do, and if your family is like most, they'll have ideas. (Mind you, you don't have to follow those ideas; but sometimes, bad ideas will spark good ones. Just some suggestions on what to do next, however impractical, will do you a lot of good.)

Most of all; you're not alone. You're not the first person this has happened to, nor (sadly) will you be the last. Dedicating yourself to someone who has proven unworthy of that energy may have been unwise; but it doesn't make you a bad person. You, and your children, deserve a better life. Make sure you (and they) get it.

catbird

06-23-2010, 10:17 PM

Ariakas is very right, Matilda. The problem here is that you and your husband are, of course, unique individuals, and have made a unique marriage, just like all marriages. Since that's so an outsider can help you only so much. What Ariakas is talking about - and what you've been talking about - only you and your husband can identify those things.

Only you two can do actually anything at all about them.

We're new friends here at the site and we can cheer you on. We can offer a listening ear. We can't tell you to do what you need to do or even identify the problem. You don't get much more personal than marriage, or in this site's case, polyamory.

EugenePoet

06-24-2010, 01:21 AM

I don't know if this was said already in some form, but Matilda, you DO need to form a very important new relationship, and it is with yourself.

All your married life you have made yourself responsible for other peoples' happiness, and now it's time for you to do it for yourself. I think you have to do it.

You probably remember how to make new friends: join a gym, a book group, painting class, whatever interests you. Look for people who will value you and support you, empathize with you. You're intelligent, articulate, and self-aware (I can see that clearly in your writing) and there will be people who want to be close to someone like you.

If you already have some friends, spend more time with them enjoying yourself. Of course you need people who will fly with you, not drag you down.

Your husband is not the only person of value on Earth, and never was.

I'm not going to pretend I know where any blame lies. I don't know your husband; I don't know you. The past cannot be changed, but the future is yours. Feel what you have to feel, whether it's grief or anger or sorrow or fear, and realize that after you pass through those emotions there is the possibility of greater happiness.

On a practical note, a therapist can probably help you here. Interview a few of them before deciding on one, if you can -- the personality fit is really crucial.

Good luck!

idealist

06-24-2010, 04:23 AM

I must admit Peppermint's article reflects a hyper monogamy expectation that I truly have never seen in people. You see bits of it but not this level of Walt Disney love.

I know, Mono. It's impossible to achieve. She isn't saying it's possible to achieve it or that anyone has been able to achieve it.

I don't know how old Matilda is, but in my childhood, those Fairy Tales where told over and over in story after story after story. That story is still being told even today, but maybe not as much now. I know you are quite a bit younger than me and you're a guy. I don't know if you had any sisters or not, but any female raised in the 40's, 50's and early 60's heard this Fairy Tale regularly.

Pepper Mint did say that " It forms a sort of reference point, a single shared idea across the culture. While representations of monogamy in culture are varied, the fact that a decent percentage of such representations use this idealized monogamy (even though it is usually considered to be impractical) tells us that this idealization has currency."

So, I can understand how this particular form of Idealized Monogamy might not have filtered into your brain as a child and a teen, but there are whole generations of females that have internalized this as the "ideal" even though they know it's impossible to achieve.

idealist

06-24-2010, 04:28 AM

idealist

06-24-2010, 04:38 AM

I once worked with a great many men who had that same behavior pattern--behving poorly then promising to make everything better before behaving badly. I worked as an officer in the state corrections system and those men were all convicted felons. It's not only classic behavior for felons, it's the modus operandus for abusers of every stripe.

It's called the "Honeymoon Phase" by the Battered Women's Program when talking about domestic violence. After the pressure is released, they come back an apologize and promise it will never happen again. It's an identifiable pattern.

Basically, any behavior which is used to control the thoughts, beliefs or behaviours of their intimate partner is considered battering. Even when a person witholds affection from the partner in an effort to control the partner, that's battering.

MonoVCPHG

06-24-2010, 06:22 AM

So, I can understand how this particular form of Idealized Monogamy might not have filtered into your brain as a child and a teen, but there are whole generations of females that have internalized this as the "ideal" even though they know it's impossible to achieve.

I get it. Your right. Environmentally this was not the expectation of the women I grew up with or the girls I knew. It's like trying to relate to the feminist movement or activist culture...they just didn't affect those around me directly and so weren't a part of my life.

Matilda

06-24-2010, 08:49 AM

I'm overwhelmed by the support. Thank you all so much.

Sometimes I'll read a post and say to myself "oh nononononoooo, that's not it at all, that couldn't be me" - and I'll go away and mull over it as I sort out the laundry and I'll take what applies to this situation, and I'll re-assess my stance on things. At other times I'll read something and can see right away that it's precisely what I know to be true, and when that happens I feel stronger, like having one of you say to me what I have half-thought a thousand times but dismissed as "just being silly" is a reassurance that no, I'm not going out of my mind, I'm not crazy and just imagining things.

Being able to take a step back mentally, so I can re-assess my worldview, so I can re-align the way I live and the way I love is difficult. I am taking small steps, and going slowly.

I know this is annoying my husband, because he is also finding it hard to see a change in me. This manifests by him swinging from being "all supportive" to practically demanding a decision with language I'm not in a position to use. Yet.

He'd like guarantees and "normal service to resume asap" - and I don't know where my head is at or where my heart is at,yet, so I cannot honestly give him a reply...and frankly...he's not used to hearing "no" from me.

What I'm getting from him is a feeling that I'm abandoning my post, so to speak- and it's easy to see that he's having immense difficulty with accepting that I can't just promise everything will be shiny and rosy in the garden any minute now, and he's frustrated with me and with the situation.

He's in a place now where he's crying out for reassurance that the whole world isn't against him, and when he reads posts that are supportive of me he takes everything as a black-and-white attack on him, and leaps to the assumption that the only 'solution' to this logically is that he gets pushed out of his rightful place in my life. He's looking for me to assure him that he's always going to be my Primary (no pun intended!) Concern in life.

I'm in a place now where I don't know how I feel, I am changing how I think, and addressing faults and flaws within myself that have contributed to the situation we are now in. I didn't set boundaries. I didn't say "no". I have the 'need to be needed' and an angel-complex where I self-sacrifice for the good of other people to the point that I'm martyring. I'm addressing those parts of me - seeing what triggers them - and trying to learn how to avoid doing them. I'm trying to focus on fixing me just now, and it's very hard to give guarantees on anything anymore. Before I can do that, I need to know who I am.

SchrodingersCat

06-24-2010, 09:32 AM

It's pretty much impossible to go back to the way things were. You've come to realize things that have been there the whole time, and starting to question things you've been taken for granted.

You husband will have to make some much bigger changes other than the "tipping point" issues. These past events just caused you to reevaluate your relationship and see things for what they really are.

Abuse is a big word and no one likes to be called an abuser. We picture these stumbling drunk white shirt unshaven guys pushing their wives into walls. And that is, of course, an extreme example. But like anything in life, there are many levels and methods of abuse. Some are so subtle that even the abuser doesn't realize he's doing it.

None of us can tell you whether to stay or go, that has to be your decision. We get pieces of the story, and based on those pieces, things look rough and dismal. It sounds like you have a lot of information and an excellent ability to process it. I think things will start to change for you, in a good way!

Matilda

06-24-2010, 03:19 PM

One step forward, two steps back.

Today started well, we had discussed what we thought would be good for both of us today, dropped the older children to school, and then went to the swimming pool with our smallest child together. We took turns with the little one, so we both got some time just to swim by ourselves, and for a while it felt positive, and dare I say 'hopeful' that if we could do things like that without pressure and expectations looming - well then we'd be in a place where we could 'get along' as friends and parents, and keep the lines of communication open.

We stopped at the store on the way home to pick up a few things we needed for meals tomorow, and that too went really well. We were 'chatting', and the mood, I felt was pleasant, but by the time we'd gotten home again a mood had descended again and the tension is back.

If I could wave a magic wand to make everything 'fine' I would, but it's all I can do right now to hold me together and keep life ticking along for the children. My husband has asked for some unpaid time off work so he can concentrate on 'family' (ie. marital difficulties) and we're waiting to see if that will be granted. Right now, he is feeling very abandoned. I haven't 'gone' anywhere, but there's no way of explaining to him that "look, I'm here, I love you, I want what's best for you, I want you to be happy - but I cannot give that to you - you have to sort that out for yourself this time. Same as I have to sort me out, for me."

I feel like I'm trying to more forward in a productive and healthy way, and he is clinging onto me for dear life in case I escape somewhere, or change into something he can't relate to. I haven't made any decisions in any direction at all yet, I'm still adjusting to a lot of new realisations and accepting a lot of hard truths, and reading and thinking things through. Maybe it's making me quiet, and maybe that's what's making him feel alone.

He's openly annoyed that he joined this forum for discussion and information and support, and then he suggested I do the same. When I joined, he feels I was welcomed with open arms, accepted right away, and am now 'building myself up a little support network'. I'm at a loss as to what he expects. The whole point of joining this forum was to get support and 'get me used to' the idea of a non-monogamous lifestyle. Today he quite plainly told me that when I speak now I'm "sounding very poly". I know I'm not poly-by-nature, if anything, I'm extremely mono (don't label me!! :o ) and I haven't even suggested the notion that I'm in any way seeking other partners in any capacity whatsoever.

I can't understand what he's feeling right now, he's certainly not making any sense. He says over and over that he loves me and he misses me terribly -- but I'm right here, and I'm doing my best to be supportive of him without slipping back and losing myself. I'm struggling to stay afloat in finding myself, and I feel that a huge part of him would be so-much-happier if I would just conveniently sink under again, because that way he would know precisely where I was and be re-assured that i wasn't 'going' anywhere without him.

His blog on here 'reads' right to me, but it's like it's written by a man I don't see day-to-day here.
I'm trying to see past the anger and the disappointment to what he manages to word calmly when he writes down what he's thinking.
Maybe he *does* want me to be happy. Maybe he *is* accepting that things have to change.
I guess I'm just so familiar with the cycle of "promise everything, deliver nothing" for 15 years, I've become less gullible, and more cynical?

Ariakas

06-24-2010, 03:58 PM

He's openly annoyed that he joined this forum for discussion and information and support, and then he suggested I do the same. When I joined, he feels I was welcomed with open arms, accepted right away, and am now 'building myself up a little support network'. I'm at a loss as to what he expects. The whole point of joining this forum was to get support and 'get me used to' the idea of a non-monogamous lifestyle. Today he quite plainly told me that when I speak now I'm "sounding very poly". I know I'm not poly-by-nature, if anything, I'm extremely mono (don't label me!! :o ) and I haven't even suggested the notion that I'm in any way seeking other partners in any capacity whatsoever.

The first thing most of us point out is a good foundation for a good poly relationship. Forcing him, and you to look at your relationship through a looking glass has caused pain. I can understand why he is annoyed.

Sounding poly? hmmmm communication, love, understanding...:D...to be honest, if you and I talked, I don't sound very poly. I am not a lovey dovey anything. I just happen to be a relationship person. Foundations of poly are not any different than the foundations of any good relationship. Period (except loving multiple people of course)

I can't understand what he's feeling right now, he's certainly not making any sense. He says over and over that he loves me and he misses me terribly -- but I'm right here, and I'm doing my best to be supportive of him without slipping back and losing myself. I'm struggling to stay afloat in finding myself, and I feel that a huge part of him would be so-much-happier if I would just conveniently sink under again, because that way he would know precisely where I was and be re-assured that i wasn't 'going' anywhere without him.

Its been a few days, for both of you. Give it time. Every person processes differently and at different speeds. Every person has a different communication style. Learning how each of you communicate and process information is going to be part of your rebuilding (both of you btw)...I kind of wish LovingRadiance was around. She is a bit of a book worm for this kind of stuff.

You might want to research communication styles, love styles and even look on this forum for book references on those. I have a very different pace than my wife and a very different way of communicating. Understanding what those are may help

His blog on here 'reads' right to me, but it's like it's written by a man I don't see day-to-day here.
I'm trying to see past the anger and the disappointment to what he manages to word calmly when he writes down what he's thinking.
Maybe he *does* want me to be happy. Maybe he *is* accepting that things have to change.

Understand, writing for some people is a simple release. It can be calm, thought out and edited...thats not a bad thing, but it allows people who like to write the ability to give in detail, without some of the emotions, exactly what they are processing.

I often write to my wife if my emotions are flying all around. Its my way of calmly conveying the direction I want to go, or want to understand. Even when on the surface I am a bumbling idiot :)...Again thats part of my communication style.

I have said it before and will repeat it. You both need to find counselling, the counselor will treat you as two individuals AND a couple. You need that assistance imo. This can be fixed if you want it, and it will take patience and understanding. In my past, I have seen some really miserable relationships get "fixed"...and they were in a far different place than yours. But it took both of them wanting it equally, and willing to do the work.

ps...non-monogamy (in any form) should be a non-option at this point. It would be very unfair to anyone to bring them into this relationship. Thats just my take.

Ari

Matilda

06-24-2010, 04:40 PM

Purely for clarification purposes:
imo, this relationship (myself and "monounsaturated") is quite messed up enough without bringing anyone else into it.

As I've said before, if it was purely up to me, from day one it would have been a one-guy-one-gal wholly exclusive monogamous relationship.

Over the years I've been nudged to the side countless times whilst my husband made relationships (online and phone based for the most part) with other people when it was extremely clear at the time that I could tolerate that or 'lose' him. I've never had any reservations or problems with him making friends outside of me...the difficulty came (again and again) because when he likes a person he wants to like every part of them and invariably pushes friendship and platonic affection into a sexually-based relationship.

To me, having a 'friend' that you're merrily calling up for phonesex isn't part of "monogamy" - and for years and years he honestly didn't understand what my 'issue' was with that... because to him I was being unfair by ENCOURAGING him to make friends but then getting upset when he wanted to meet them for coffee-and-maybe-sex-we'll-see-how-it-goes. To my mind that's not the same as 'friends' (:rolleyes: remember we were meant to be a mono couple).

I was never, ever, ever, okay with him having a sexual relationship (be it cybersex, phonesex, webcamming or meeting up) and he knew this, and subsequently 'hid' that aspect of his 'friendships' from me because he realised how upset I got when I found out about it. I felt cheated on, simple as. I should state, as far as I KNOW he never went through with actually meeting anybody physically for sex because I found out in advance (helpful-dumbass-me-here booked the hotel for the woman involved, and when he said he was intending to meet up with her there, and I asked why, you can imagine my hurt and heartbreak at the reply - so it didn't happen)

Maybe that's why he's never liked the idea of me having friends.
If he GENUINELY cannot distinguish between "platonic" friendships and "sexual" friendships - and just figures a "friend you meet for a coffee" is the same as "a friend that you meet for sex" ...perhaps he felt justified in getting rid of anyone who liked me in some sort of retaliation for my being upset with him when he wanted to engage in sexual acts with people outside of our marriage.

Uch. This is such a mess. Does that read as pure naivity?
Surely it's not unreasonable for me to believe that sex isn't the logical conclusion of making friends with people? If that were the case, everyone would be having sex with half the town, and that would be crazy.

I'm second-guessing myself again now.
Maybe his definition of making friends is just a cover-up for him unfairly vetoing my friendships. Maybe by him saying "platonic" and "sexual" friendships are the very same to him, it justifies his behaviour all these years.
Hell, I don't know.

Tomorrow morning, we're going to look into counselling. I think it's required.

NeonKaos

06-24-2010, 05:00 PM

Wow Matilda, from your posts here you seem like someone who has her head screwed on straight in spite of everything you're going through.

I think there are a lot of people who would envy your strength and clarity of thought. Of course, I don't know you in real life. You could be an insufferable cream-puff for all I know, but I'm going by what I see in writing.

Matilda

06-24-2010, 05:22 PM

You get hugged for that YGirl.
You just made me laugh out loud - and I needed to laugh out loud. :D

I'm hereby embracing the notion that I could be an insufferable cream-puff! :p

redsirenn

06-24-2010, 07:39 PM

His blog on here 'reads' right to me, but it's like it's written by a man I don't see day-to-day here.
I'm trying to see past the anger and the disappointment to what he manages to word calmly when he writes down what he's thinking.
Maybe he *does* want me to be happy. Maybe he *is* accepting that things have to change.
I guess I'm just so familiar with the cycle of "promise everything, deliver nothing" for 15 years, I've become less gullible, and more cynical?

Wow - So much of what you have written resonates with me.

I was in an "abusive" relationship and marriage for 8 years. This man sounds like my ex. It started slowly, with small gestures and comments that seemed to poke fun at me. I always shook them off, although I was constantly questioning myself and wondering if I was "crazy".
There was a time when I came to the realization after a trip to visit some old friends that I may have been in an abusive relationship. I brought this up to him and he became so defensive, telling me I was wrong, crazy, it was nonsense, etc.
Over time, my brain became trained to block out my own intuition. The abuse slowly became worse, and he was constantly having the same kind of affairs you describe in your posts. Eventually he acted on them physically. I found out, and he just made me feel like it was my fault. He asked me to accept other women into our marriage. "Concubines" was the word he used. It was humiliating to me. He lied constantly, either by omission or to my face. It got to a point when it didn't matter what he said, I was always questioning him, and myself. Eventually, the abuse also became physical.
I found myself even questioning if the bruises were real - he had me completely brainwashed.
I sought help online first, ashamed of my marriage and myself.
He was "scared" just like your husband, of my new support. Saying exactly what you typed above. He cut me off from people and support so slowly over the years, that when I began to find them again, he was terrified that he wouldn't be able to control me anymore.
He wrote me things that sounded so good on paper... things that he discussed with my family, our therapist, etc. all sounded "right". BUT I didn't feel it. I got so used to him NEVER following through and making me feel good - always knowing that he would not live up to my expectations - remember my birthday, send me a love letter, make me feel special, that I gave up and a piece of me died inside. I remember that exact moment and how hopeless I felt. I thought I would never be happy again, that I didn't deserve love... That the love I read about, and was so sure existed was a naivety.
Well - Guess what - it was NOT.

My friends got me out of this mess after I so casually laughed off a bruise on my arm that I had been covering with makeup. They got angry for me. They pulled me out, not even listening to my nonsense and supported me through a divorce that I thought would kill me.

Now - I feel like myself again. I have been working very hard to gain my intuition back, to stand up for myself, to have a network of friends that care about me deeply, that I can talk honestly with.

And - without even expecting it, I have an amazing man by my side that makes me feel special. This is possible because I realized I had to take charge of my life - that I was responsible for my happiness. Ouroboros and I talk about our relationship, we analyze it together and apart, we are both interested in opening it up, healthfully, and honestly. We take time so we can each process our feelings. My friends actually love him too - something I have never felt before.

I truly want him to be happy, not because I should feel that way about my SO, but because he deserves it.

So - I guess what I am trying to say here is:
1) you are not alone.
2) you are doing great by analyzing how you feel, and questioning it.
3) If your husband cannot give you what you need, there is happiness around the bend - waiting for you if you reach for it.

RS

Matilda

06-24-2010, 08:25 PM

Thank you for sharing your story with me RS. I read it all, I promise I did, and I hear what you're saying. If it's okay with you, I'll take the following, cut and paste, and bring them about with me in my mind for the next little while:

"I thought I would never be happy again, that I didn't deserve love... That the love I read about, and was so sure existed was a naivety.
Well - Guess what - it was NOT."

" I realized I had to take charge of my life - that I was responsible for my happiness."

I don't want to give up on getting my "Happy Ever After"... I just understand now that it's something you have to work on making happen day after day and not expect will just fall into your lap because you deserve it. Doing that's like expecting the bull not to charge simply because you happen to be a vegetarian, right?

Matilda

06-25-2010, 06:16 AM

I am so, so, sooooooo exhausted tired.
I wasn't 'allowed' to sleep last night, because every time I drifted off, my husband woke me again to demand decisions I can't give him yet.

Last night he seemed to be in a rational place, and we were talking in what I felt was a very positive and productive way. It felt hopeful. He set out that he loved me and was 'in love' with me, but he said he understood that given his behaviour over the past decade and a half that I was wholly within my rights to tell him I wanted him out of my life entirely. Of course, I don't want that. I don't know *what* I want, but I know I don't want that. We agreed to make a 'new' framework - admitted that the marriage we went into 'as kids ourselves' hadn't worked, acknowledged that we needed to build ourselves as 2 unique people... and THEN we'd be in a position to make a new framework, and build a relationship based on who we are now, whether that was as a couple or as friends or as whatever. I went to bed.

I was barely asleep when he woke me up. He was upset, and needed clarification. Was I poly? Did I want other partners? I said, in all honesty, that I needed sleep, and as far as I was concerned I was still cut out for monogamy, but I needed to figure out who I was. He wanted a clearcut answer. 3am and he's looking for cut-and-dried guarantees, when I really needed to sleep. I said I didn't *know* who I am, for all I know, I could be suited to being mono or poly or a nun - I had no answers for him.

For the past 13 years or so, I've been bleeding my heart and soul into a relationship where I was the only one who was committed to 'making it work'. Now that I take a step back, *now* he needs guarantees.

I've spent the night in a state of distress, pleading with him to allow me to sleep, whilst he went up and downstairs getting increasingly annoyed and frustrated with my inability to say "yes, I think we should be a couple". He seems to belive that now that he has suddenly decided what the problem is (his self-esteem) that I should now know precisely who I am and get right back to where I was before, being the good little wifey and smiling and nodding and going along with whatever his whim is this time. I can't do that now. I'm not saying I'm ruling out the possibility of reconciliation, but he's talking and acting like it's a fait accomplit that we're "happily married" again now, and we can put all this 'finding ourselves' nonsense under the rug again.

I can't do that. That's hypocrisy to me. I don't know how I feel because I don't know who I am, and the *reason* for that is the treatment of the past 15 years of my life. I'm not the same person I was before.

He flits from being supportive and understanding to outright demanding and making grandiose statements about not being able to live without me and never being capable of loving anyone else - and I'm meant to shoulder that responsibility at 3am, 4am, 5am - whilst I try to sort my own feelings out?
It's like the more I need 'space' to think, he tighter he clings on to me, and the tighter he clings and the more intense his demands get, the more I desperately need that space.:(

EugenePoet

06-25-2010, 01:29 PM

It sounds like the psychological tension is awfully intense. When people can't sleep -- his turmoil is keeping him awake, and he's not disciplined enough to at least let you sleep -- then things can blow up. Tempers flare, judgment fails, self-control vanishes.

Please be careful, I know you are, but it's very worrying to read what you're going through.

I don't think the two of you should be going through this on your own. If you don't have a therapist, get one ASAP. If nothing else, a well-experience therapist will have seen so many variations on human difficulties that she has a wide and deep perspective very few of us can match. She can warn you about pitfalls, clarify misunderstandings, and bring deeper understanding of psychological drives and needs.

Find a therapist, find one quickly. You should not go through this without help.

SchrodingersCat

06-25-2010, 07:44 PM

To me, having a 'friend' that you're merrily calling up for phonesex isn't part of "monogamy" - and for years and years he honestly didn't understand what my 'issue' was with that... because to him I was being unfair by ENCOURAGING him to make friends but then getting upset when he wanted to meet them for coffee-and-maybe-sex-we'll-see-how-it-goes. To my mind that's not the same as 'friends' (:rolleyes: remember we were meant to be a mono couple).

Uch. This is such a mess. Does that read as pure naivity?
Surely it's not unreasonable for me to believe that sex isn't the logical conclusion of making friends with people? If that were the case, everyone would be having sex with half the town, and that would be crazy.

You're completely right. Friendship does not mean sex, there's no naiveté there. It's not to say there aren't friends who do have sex, but sex is not an automatic part of friendship. Otherwise straight people would have no same-sex friends, and coffee houses would provide condoms at the door and beds in the back.

I am so, so, sooooooo exhausted tired.
I wasn't 'allowed' to sleep last night, because every time I drifted off, my husband woke me again to demand decisions I can't give him yet.

This is completely unacceptable. I understand that he's having trouble sleeping, his 3 a.m. posts prove that. But your troubles cannot get better if both of you are trying to deal with them on zero sleep. Your mind needs rest in order to function.

To me, this feels like one more grasp at controlling you.

Matilda

06-26-2010, 08:58 AM

I've slept, and sleeping is good. Yesterday we made progress...strange progress, scary progress, but definate progress.

Lots of talking and heartspilling and reflection led to us agreement to separate. We're sorting out counselling for both of us, and although we're in the same house, we're focusing on building ourselves as people.

The official line is that we're "very much a family, just not a couple" - and once we work though all of our personal issues and relationship problems, we should be in a better position to work out who we are, what each of us wants and needs, and where we need to go from there.

In the meantime, I'll sort out things I need to make me more 'me'...simple things like a bank account, a driving permit, a mobile phone.

I'm nervous, and I'm upset, but I also feel immense relief. Taking off my rings was like undoing manacles, they've come to signify the loss of my own identity so much. Things are difficult, but less tense. I feel hopeful where before I felt desperate. I don't know where I'm going, but I welcome the journey.