View Full Version : Figuring all this Out
I have just read kat Tails blog and I suddenly feel really weary with all this. My story isn't very exciting: just a women in love with a man who is in love with two women. I have given advice because I've been in this position for nearly two years now so I can identify with people just putting a toe in the water, but the truth is I still have a lot more questions than answers.
1. How does a primary not become the "meat and potatoes" while the subsequent relationships are more like desserts. i.e fascinating tidbits that could not really sustain you long term but are what you so often crave because they are so delicious? It's easier to be delicious when you don't share dishes, domestics, dirty laundry, his kids and his ex.
2. As a primary can you expect to remain primary? Should your needs be primary?
3. Does polyamory create deeper or shallower relationships in general? Surely if you are committed to just one person then you both have to work harder at that one relationship? You have more invested because your eggs are all in one basket. With poly you have your needs met from different sources; a bit like spreading the risk or diversifying your portfolio.
Ariakas
06-11-2010, 02:07 PM
1. How does a primary not become the "meat and potatoes" while the subsequent relationships are more like desserts. i.e fascinating tidbits that could not really sustain you long term but are what you so often crave because they are so delicious? It's easier to be delicious when you don't share dishes, domestics, dirty laundry, his kids and his ex.
Keeping in mind everyone does it differently, This absolutely can happen, but I bet those relationship dont last long. But lets look at 2 couples merging
Guy 1 and Girl 1
Guy 2 and Girl 2
Girl 1 meets Guy 2 and start dating. They are secondary to each other. This balance is met because they do have another relationship.
Obviously this can happen a million different ways. Some people are more inclined to a secondary relatinship choosing to be there at certain times but preferring other relationships. Ideally, with everyone open, no one is dependent.
This balance is found with communication and trust. In the above scenario you may find guy 1 completely happy being monogamous with girl 1 even though girl 1 has a bf.
2. As a primary can you expect to remain primary? Should your needs be primary?
Absolutely depends on the config and the people involved. Since you asked that as a question descriptive to *me*...my needs are primary, to myself. Ideally I have support and I am helping others too.
Don't focus to much on the labels, they will make your head spin. If you love someone as mentioned by you, work with the relationship as you can. Don't expect, as in traditionally monogamous relationships, to walk into the mans world with 2 other women, and sweep him away time wise. He has to budget that time and fullfill his needs, plus 2 others.
ps, he must be a miracle worker with a calendar haha...love may be infinite, but time in a day is only 24 hours haha
3. Does polyamory create deeper or shallower relationships in general? Surely if you are committed to just one person then you both have to work harder at that one relationship? You have more invested because your eggs are all in one basket. With poly you have your needs met from different sources; a bit like spreading the risk or diversifying your portfolio.
I will simply say...people who suck at monogamous relationships are going to suck at poly relationships. Poly isn't some magic egg to make everything feel right in the world. Relationships take work...so in general, the relationships are as good as their weakest person.
KatTails
06-11-2010, 08:01 PM
I have just read kat Tails blog and I suddenly feel really weary with all this. My story isn't very exciting: just a women in love with a man who is in love with two women. I have given advice because I've been in this position for nearly two years now so I can identify with people just putting a toe in the water, but the truth is I still have a lot more questions than answers.
1. How does a primary not become the "meat and potatoes" while the subsequent relationships are more like desserts. i.e fascinating tidbits that could not really sustain you long term but are what you so often crave because they are so delicious? It's easier to be delicious when you don't share dishes, domestics, dirty laundry, his kids and his ex.
2. As a primary can you expect to remain primary? Should your needs be primary?
3. Does polyamory create deeper or shallower relationships in general? Surely if you are committed to just one person then you both have to work harder at that one relationship? You have more invested because your eggs are all in one basket. With poly you have your needs met from different sources; a bit like spreading the risk or diversifying your portfolio.
Sage - you're making me feel bad. Please don't take my blog as an example of a mono/poly marriage. My husband has been dating MG for over a year - and I have gone from a crying, depressed, resentful, angry, broken down, emotional mess of a wife to a stronger, more understanding, more accepting wife who still, on occasion gets jealous, insecure and cries. I am proud to say that I have not had a total meltdown in almost 3 months!
I very often feel like the "meat and potatoes" since I am the one at home dealing with everything while he gets to go out and get his "dessert." That is the hardest part of this for me. That is what makes me sad. Whether this is how he feels or not - a lot of the time I feel like I'm an afterthought.
From what I have read on this site - there aren't many mono wives learning to accept their poly husbands - so we don't have an opportunity to see one that is successful. Of course we have the RedPepper, Polynerdist, Mono et al tribe and the LovingRadiance, Maca, GG tribe (all of whom have taught me so much and given me great advice and support) but their dynamic and a mono/poly dynamic is very different.
While I may struggle at times, they are fewer and farther between and less severe - I refuse to give up on my self, my husband, our marriage or my budding sisterly friendship with MG. Who knows - maybe we will be that success story.:)
Morningglory629
06-11-2010, 08:07 PM
ps, he must be a miracle worker with a calendar haha...love may be infinite, but time in a day is only 24 hours haha
I will simply say...people who suck at monogamous relationships are going to suck at poly relationships. Poly isn't some magic egg to make everything feel right in the world. Relationships take work...so in general, the relationships are as good as their weakest person.
B-I-N-G-O! Labels are misleading, and have been a huge source of discomfort in our situation. we are all just working on our relationships with everyone involved. It takes alot of communication...at times it does make your head spin and your BP raise (or rise , not sure), but if it is going to be a long term and not casual or even tersiary well then...work it is!
I don't think it is possible to understand how a mono primary really feels unless you are one. That's why i think I felt sad over a post of Kat Tails.
We do work very hard at the poly life and at our relationships. I was reading an article posted recently about jealousy and what came up for me is that Z and his secondary J get to have a kind of fantasy relationship while I get the reality of him and his life which is not always so pretty. I know I also get the privilege of sleeping with him most nights and building a life with him and I would in no way want to swap.
When they are together I feel excluded (article says to follow the jealously to a more specific feeling). But the more interesting feeling is that I have given my whole life to be with him and had to work really hard to make it happen. We have a small house and I get to have his kids taking it over every other weekend and school holidays (mine are grown up), I get his computer gear spilling over everything and his grumpiness at seemingly trivial things that I do. Just venting here, I still love him to bits, obviously or else I wouldn't be putting myself through all this. And he is generally the most loving and wonderful partner I have ever had.
J on this other hand gets none of the hard stuff, she lives on her own, on a resort style island, doesn't have to work regularly and gets to sunbathe nude on her local beach most days with the exception of winter. He goes there to be bathe in her serenity, so he isn't grumpy, he doesn't take his kids or his computer gear.
So what am I trying to say here? I suppose that I work hard everyday to keep our relationship in tip top condition. J does nothing and he still loves her. I know, I know you can't earn love but it's just one of the dynamics behind my jealousy.
I also think I have an issue with their form of 'love'. They only love a part of each other because that is all they know of each other and yet he speaks a great deal about loving her. How much of someone do you have to really know and understand before you are really loving them and not just a picture of them that appeals?
KatTails
06-17-2010, 03:22 PM
I don't think it is possible to understand how a mono primary really feels unless you are one. That's why i think I felt sad over a post of Kat Tails.
Hi Sage - you are right - no one can understand how hard it is for a mono-primary except other mono-primaries. The feelings, at times, are indescribable. Other can try to put themselves in our shoes - but they really have no idea. It's very hard when you had your life planned out one way - and then this happens, and everything you thought you knew, changes. It's different than falling in love with someone who is married or has a gf/bf. It's different than meeting someone, them telling you they're poly and you getting to decide if you want to continue with the relationship or not.
We do work very hard at the poly life and at our relationships. I was reading an article posted recently about jealousy and what came up for me is that Z and his secondary J get to have a kind of fantasy relationship while I get the reality of him and his life which is not always so pretty. I know I also get the privilege of sleeping with him most nights and building a life with him and I would in no way want to swap.
MG says this all the time - that at lease I get to sleep with him everynight - but would she really want to put herself in my shoes? Would she really want to go through what I am feeling? Would she really want to watch her husband go off to be with another woman? She has said in counseling that she wouldn't or couldn't and gives me a lot of credit for doing it.
When they are together I feel excluded (article says to follow the jealously to a more specific feeling). But the more interesting feeling is that I have given my whole life to be with him and had to work really hard to make it happen. We have a small house and I get to have his kids taking it over every other weekend and school holidays (mine are grown up), I get his computer gear spilling over everything and his grumpiness at seemingly trivial things that I do. Just venting here, I still love him to bits, obviously or else I wouldn't be putting myself through all this. And he is generally the most loving and wonderful partner I have ever had.
I completely understand what you are saying. Why do you think that people suggest living with someone before they get married? Living with someone, dealing with all that goes with that, plus children etc, is very hard. I love my husband more than anything - but at times, he is very demanding and difficult to live with, as am I. MG has said that she doesn't think she could live with him - that their personalities are too similar. It's my life, it's the life I have chosen - but it isn't always sunshine and roses.
J on this other hand gets none of the hard stuff, she lives on her own, on a resort style island, doesn't have to work regularly and gets to sunbathe nude on her local beach most days with the exception of winter. He goes there to be bathe in her serenity, so he isn't grumpy, he doesn't take his kids or his computer gear.
I say this all the time. Yes, MG has responsibilites, stresses etc - but when they are together, she can lose herself in him and put all of her issues aside. When I am with 2rings - we do have the issues of kids, house, dog, jobs, family etc - but we can't just forget about all that. We don't have a lot of time alone, with just the two of us. When they go out - it is just the two of them. They can have a picnic, take a walk, sit in the park etc with nothing to distract them. Him and I can barely hug without the kids or the dog jumping in. We don't get to go out to dinner by ourselves. Forget taking a walk, sitting in the park etc. - it doesn't happen. The only alone time we get is late at night after he gets home from work - but we are both exhausted and half of the time we can barely keep our eyes open. Where's the excitement in that?
MG and 2rings are going away for an overnight next weekend. All they have to do is pick a place, let their spouses know, pack their bags and go. 2rings doesn't have to worry about anything - because he knows I'll be here to take care of the kids, the dog, the house, the bills etc. I'm sure MG has it a little harder as she has teenagers - but she still has people there to help out. They get to go off, with no responsibilites, with only each other to focus on.
2rings and I are going away in a few days for an overnight and there is a lot more to do. We have to pick a place, make sure the kids can go to their Grandparents, call the kennel, pack the kids stuff, take the dog to the kennel, take the kids to their Grandparents, make sure the bills are paid ahead of time, set the timers....there is a lot more to worry about that it starts to lose its excitement. Then, while we are gone, we worry if the kids are behaving, how much is the kennel going to cost us etc.... I can't help but feel that I am the bland and boring meat and potatoes while MG is the sweet, decadent, exciting dessert. I am the boring, stressed, emotional wife while MG is the fun-loving, sexy, sensual girlfriend.
I also think I have an issue with their form of 'love'. They only love a part of each other because that is all they know of each other and yet he speaks a great deal about loving her. How much of someone do you have to really know and understand before you are really loving them and not just a picture of them that appeals?
Again - I have felt the same way many times. I am not saying that if she knew more about 2rings that she wouldn't love him, but fantasy is always better than reality. Day to day life is much more stressful than going out for a few hours or an overnight here and there. It just is. You never really know a person until you live with them. Do not read this as a complaint - as I said - I love him more than anything - or I wouldn't still be here. But our relationship is very different from theirs because we are married, have kids, a house, jobs, etc...they have flirting, excitement, late-night rendevous, sneaking glances.....
I have no doubt that MG has a different take on this - after all, we are coming from two different perspectives. I am speaking about how I feel and how it feels to be a "mono-primary." This is where Sage is coming from - and I can relate to her.
Sage - anytime you need to talk or vent - please do not hesitate to PM me!
Hang in there!
:)Kat:)
MonoVCPHG
06-17-2010, 05:13 PM
:)Kat:)
Nice post Kat!
KatTails
06-17-2010, 05:32 PM
Sage - in rereading my post, I realize that I didn't really offer you any advice - and that I made it all about me. I have a bad tendency of doing that. I'm having a rough time today and have a lot of thoughts and feelings running through me and they kindof took over. I'm sorry. However, I don't have any advice to give. I really don't know how to stop feeling this way. I just wanted to let you know that you're not alone and that there are people on here who are going through the same thing and feeling the same way that you do.
All we can do is support each other so we don't feel so alone.
Kat
Lost421
06-17-2010, 05:53 PM
I understand completely how you feel, Sage,
I feel like my wife and I get to deal with all the mundane, often difficult, trying parts of a relationship, such as paying bills, sharing to household work, and just trying to get by. I feel like she can forget about all then when she is with M. It's unfortunate, since, he's a bachelor and definitely living the bachelor lifestyle, but if I let our house get so disgustingly filthy and cluttered she would have a fit! But she doesn't ever say anything about the state of his place to him, she just deals with it. On the plus side I think my wife and I have a much deeper emotional connection because we have had to deal with the hard stuff, the tough decisions, and all the mundane bits of life that get in the way of just having fun.
I'm not sure if I consider myself a mono-primary, but that's how things are at the moment nonetheless, so I know where you're coming from. My wife and M get to go on a weekend getaway while I'm stuck with the housework, the bills, and dealing with her work clients that want to change their appointments or add more time or what have you. Lucky for us we don't have kids yet, but if we do that will make things even more difficult. Sometimes its hard being the 'beast of burden' so to speak. You should probably just tell him how you feel about it, and let your frustrations be known. Sounds to me like you and your partner need to take some time just for the two of you once in a while, and you have to ask for what you want in life, right?
And so far as the type of love your husband and his gf have, you're probably right, they are in love in a bit of a fantasy world where they do not have the same responsibilities and he can just leave his responsibilities with you. If this bothers you, you need to tell him. You deserve some of that fantasy too, just as she deserves to see the piece of himself he leaves behind when he goes to see her. Being the meatloaf and potatoes in a relationship can often feel unfair, but remember that a person can't live on the desserts alone ;)
R
Morningglory629
06-18-2010, 04:38 AM
Here is the issue I have with this thread...there is a tone here that a mono has some monopoly on relationship hardships. That is completely untrue. And KT I think you can attest to that and have posted on here about the issues 2R and I have had frequently. Also, you act as if the "secondaries" do not have their own domestic responsibilities, and dismiss the fact that those sometimes play on the relationships with your SOs. Not really a fair assessment-especially of how 2R and I relate to eachother on many levels.
So as a matter of fact in the general thread, the poly in your relationships have alot more to handle than you are giving them credit. They juggle at least two lovers. They are committed to both/all relationships. They are working hard to keep both/all happy (some poly have to juggle more than two). According to you they see you as their "meat and potatoes"...the staple in their lives, the nourishment that they need, their comfort food so to speak...not only are you commiserating about that role but you are dismissing their significant others as "dessert" -empty and not really filling. Very rude in my particular opinion. I think I offer a bit more to my lover than empty calories and fantasy. That may just be my opinion. But yes KT I would love to swap places with you for even just a month. I don't know that I could live with 2R but I would like to try it some time. We are very similar...that could be a dream or a nightmare situation. I hope it would be the former.
You forget that your polys are by nature loving and generous people who are doing their very best to provide and support you and see you through ACCEPTING them. Not accepting the end of the future you thought you had...you are learning to accept them as who they truly are and ALWAYS have been when you look into their relationships, and BTW that future is still with them, right? You have all stated something to tune of "Don't take this as complaining- because I love him/her to bits etc;" but YOU ARE COMPLAINING!
You are sticking this out because you have great spouses/gf/bf/SO whatever you want to call them. But here is what I think you are all missing in the poly/mono debate: relationships are all individual...I relate to my men individually. I bring to them what they need from me as individuals. There is no blanket way of loving. It is all real...nothing fake, or forced, or without struggles. Is alot of it NRE? Maybe in your opinion. I think it is just energy itself. I bring energy to any relationship I have- it isn't new and then fizzles. Energy is a constant. I work at every relationship: friendship, family tie or lover. I can only assume your SOs are similar in that they are passionate people...that is what you are drawn to. Now I do not pretend to understand the need for labeling yourselves as primary and us secondary but if that is what you feel is necessary then so be it. But you really shouldn't make it seem as if the relationship or the love is somehow less than yours. I think that is naive on your part. So I would just ask that you not relegate my understanding of how you feel as subpar because I am poly and you are mono. I think I am pretty good at maintaining relationships because I pay attention and think of my lovers and friends usually before I think of myself, and that is the trick for success and happiness. So I guess I do have a very different perspective. I hope this helps...truly I do. I don't want you to take this as a rant or retaliatory in nature. I just think if you are going to continue relationships with your polys you need to appreciate them a little more and not complain so much. There is a difference between venting and whining. Someone on here once told me...Don't look this gift horse in the mouth, another one said, Don't be greedy. Those have become checkpoints for me! Just sharing.:)
I haven't read back over the thread but I am wondering if it was the commonality of feelings that made us seem complaining and whiny. And some people who responded are obviously in different spaces to KT and me. From what I have read she is, like me, essentially very happy in her relationship.
I have no one to talk about this stuff with, this is the only place that there is any understanding of my situation. The few people I have told can't understand why I would put up with the situation. They almost see it as a form of abuse and me lacking something in myself that makes me stay.
I didn't mean to generalize about all secondaries and I'm sorry if it came out that way. J does have a very easy domestic set up, she has worked hard to create it and I know she does have other challenges. I know that it must also be difficult being a secondary. J has so far remained celibate, one of the reasons being that she believes this will save her from tormented feelings when Z ( and maybe others) aren't there (which is most of the time).
But the feelings that have been expressed in this thread are real. It's all very well to talk of love and compersion (the up sides of poly) but we monos have these feelings and I'm sure there is another range of challenging feelings that is common to 'secondaries' (I'm just using this as a label here for convenience of understanding). I think it's really healthy to be able to express these feeling somewhere and have people going through the same things understand.
There is a lot more in your response but I will have to break it down a bit to digest it all fully.
Sage
I didn't mean to be rude but In our case Z and J acknowledge that they couldn't have a 'full-time' relationship so to me that means that they couldn't sustain each other. They had the opportunity before I came on the scene. He had left his wife and they were great friends even then.
Some desserts are nourishing, some are not but they have a specialness about them. Like someone said we all need to feel special sometimes and I've very lucky that Z makes me feel very special most of the time.
Sage:)
Morningglory629
06-18-2010, 01:34 PM
[QUOTE]And some people who responded are obviously in different spaces to KT and me. From what I have read she is, like me, essentially very happy in her relationship.
She does say that alot especially in other threads. I just think that constant focus on the negative, or perceived negative, is detrimental to moving-on and growth.
I have no one to talk about this stuff with, this is the only place that there is any understanding of my situation. The few people I have told can't understand why I would put up with the situation. They almost see it as a form of abuse and me lacking something in myself that makes me stay.
I feel bad for you on this one. Do you think it may be because of the way you are presenting it? I have told several people and I have yet to run into any negative. Perhaps you are presenting as a victim and then they are wondering why you would continue to make yourself miserable? Just a thought. The only negative I have received from the people I have come out to is their concern for my relationship with KT. Not my husband, nor 2Rings. This may be because I present the happiness first, problems aren't the projection I want here.
J does have a very easy domestic set up, she has worked hard to create it and I know she does have other challenges. I know that it must also be difficult being a secondary. J has so far remained celibate, one of the reasons being that she believes this will save her from tormented feelings when Z ( and maybe others) aren't there (which is most of the time).
Nothing in these statements seem to convey an easy time for J.
But the feelings that have been expressed in this thread are real. It's all very well to talk of love and compersion (the up sides of poly) but we monos have these feelings and I'm sure there is another range of challenging feelings that is common to 'secondaries' (I'm just using this as a label here for convenience of understanding). I think it's really healthy to be able to express these feeling somewhere and have people going through the same things understand.
Absolutely! Express away. I was just giving you a different perspective and the opportunity to think about what a poly secondary may be feeling, and how general statements that aren't really factual can be misleading.
For me, and I am only speaking for myself, 2Rings is a secondary in your terms but I do NOT consider his love for me any less than my husband's love for me. We do not share domestic duties and responsibilities. We do not have children. We do make time for eachother which in itself can wreak havoc on our lives in other ways (having to deal with scheduling, paying for our meetings/activities, and most importantly the possible-not always- but sometimes reactions of our spouses.) We make time for eachother because that is what you do to stay connected. All the reasons you state as obstacles are just that...obstacles, but mostly ones that should be easily set aside for a few hours each week to connect with your loved one.
I think you should express and vent and tell your story. It is important for everyone. I read mono pov's because I have two in my life. I need to hear their problems so I understand what I need to do. Don't just read mono pov's because well...you know what that feeling is. You are trying to learn and grow, not just commiserate. Important to make the connections of course with KT, AK and Mono etc but also VERY important you consider what you NEED to become more positive about your life.:)
Ariakas
06-18-2010, 01:55 PM
I didn't mean to be rude but In our case Z and J acknowledge that they couldn't have a 'full-time' relationship so to me that means that they couldn't sustain each other. They had the opportunity before I came on the scene. He had left his wife and they were great friends even then.
Some relationships naturally suit a prescribed secondary model. Flirty, fun, almost like a mini vacation. Not everyone's secondary relationship is that relaxed, as everyone builds their relationships differently.
Some people on other forums come online looking for relationships AS secondaries. In their head it is a committed relationship without all the ties. Kudos to them for knowing what they want.
Other people view the prescribed secondary term as almost derogatory. As it has the potential to describe the above person, when in fact they do not have a "degraded" role in their relationship. The love is as primary as ... well their primary :)
And please keep sharing, thats why this forum is here. To put things on the table that need discussing. Different viewpoints and perspectives help process.
Ariakas
06-18-2010, 02:01 PM
I just think that constant focus on the negative, or perceived negative, is detrimental to moving-on and growth.
Really, this is true for everything in any situation.
I have been known to get into negative spirals. Its creates what I call the toilet bowl affect to the point I can't see positive when it comes my way. Luckily I have friends and a wonderful wife to slap me upside the head when I get to involved in my own misery.
Not only does it affect me, but it can bring down people around me (hell I am a pisces I wear my life on my arm, people ALWAYS know how I feel) which is usually what drags me back out. I always feel very bad when I notice other people are coming down the toilet with me, so I fight to come back.
Btw, not saying here anyone here is at that point, just making a general point about being negative and how it can become a compound injury if not dealt with :)
KatTails
06-18-2010, 03:49 PM
Here is the issue I have with this thread...there is a tone here that a mono has some monopoly on relationship hardships. That is completely untrue. And KT I think you can attest to that and have posted on here about the issues 2R and I have had frequently. Also, you act as if the "secondaries" do not have their own domestic responsibilities, and dismiss the fact that those sometimes play on the relationships with your SOs. Not really a fair assessment-especially of how 2R and I relate to eachother on many levels. So as a matter of fact in the general thread, the poly in your relationships have alot more to handle than you are giving them credit. They juggle at least two lovers. They are committed to both/all relationships. They are working hard to keep both/all happy (some poly have to juggle more than two).
MG - as I stated in my post - I can only give my point of view in this situation. I can't speak for you or for the "secondary" point of view - because I am not living it. I do know that you have your own domestic responsibilities - I never insinuated that you didn't. I do know that you and 2rings have your own issues, your own stresses, your own problems. I am often criticized for how long my posts are - so I chose to only present my POV because honestly, that's all I know. It was not a slam against you or a way to minimize the things that you do, experience or bring to your relationship with 2rings. The OP was about the feelings of a "mono-primary" not a "secondary." I do give you credit - I just didn't feel that this was the thread to bring it up. Maybe you can start a thread about how "secondaries" feel and the hardships that they face.
According to you they see you as their "meat and potatoes"...the staple in their lives, the nourishment that they need, their comfort food so to speak...not only are you commiserating about that role but you are dismissing their significant others as "dessert" -empty and not really filling. Very rude in my particular opinion. I think I offer a bit more to my lover than empty calories and fantasy.
Again - we are talking about OUR roles in our relationships. If this is how you feel - then I think you missed the whole point of that analogy. The fact of the matter is, yes, you and him have issues, problems etc. But you two do not have the responsibilities and pressures of children, a house, bills and the general day to day issues - you just don't. It's not a slam - it's a fact. Do you two have other issues - yes. I never said you didn't. Do I think you are "empty calories?" No I don't - you bring and give a lot to him. He needs you in his life. But you know that your relationship with him is a lot different than your with P. That's all I'm saying.
You have all stated something to tune of "Don't take this as complaining- because I love him/her to bits etc;" but YOU ARE COMPLAINING!
Have you never complained about P.? You love him - but you still get annoyed with him - right? You aren't completely, 100% happy with everything about him - right? That doesn't mean you don't love him. That doesn't mean you don't want to be married to him. We all have problems and difficulties in our marriages - that's part of life. The point is that you only see 2rings in certain situations. You don't know what it is like to live with him. To raise children with him. To run a household with him. You don't have to deal daily with his quirks and his set-in-his-ways personality. You don't see the same sides of him that I do - because you are in a different part of his life. Again - it's not a slam against you - it's just a fact. If a woman came along and thought that P. was all that and a bag of chips - don't you think you would feel the same way that I do? Wouldn't you get a little jealous that she doesn't have to deal with all of his negatives all the time? It doesn't mean that you don't love him - but you would see a side of him that another woman wouldn't because she doesn't live with him. That is all that I am saying. The grass is always greener on the other side. You want what I have - you want to be married to him, live with him, have children with him. I want what you have - the freedom with him, no responsibilites with him, the time to focus on just each other. But they each come with their own positives and negatives.
Now I do not pretend to understand the need for labeling yourselves as primary and us secondary but if that is what you feel is necessary then so be it. But you really shouldn't make it seem as if the relationship or the love is somehow less than yours. I think that is naive on your part. So I would just ask that you not relegate my understanding of how you feel as subpar because I am poly and you are mono.
In my post I used the term "mono-primary" because that is what the OP used in her initial post - not because I feel the need to degrade your relationship with 2rings. Personally, I don't see the big deal in using the terms primary and secondary - because to me, they aren't used in a negative or degrading way - but to show the differing relationships each has. I consider myself 2rings primary because we are married, have children, a house, a dog and more - NOT because he loves me more than you. I am not making it seem that his love for you is less than, or subpar to his love for me - not at all. But the responsibilities, committments, burdens that him and I have are more than you and him have. Just like the responsibilites, committments and burdens that you and P. have are more than you and 2rings have. It has nothing to do with love. He loves you and I equally, but differently. Just as you love him and P. equally, but differently. Labels, in this case, are often used to clarify relationships - not to degrade, put down others or put a hierarchy on love.
I just think that constant focus on the negative, or perceived negative, is detrimental to moving-on and growth.
I agree - but I am finding it difficult to find the positives right now. You aren't in my shoes - so you really can't understand what I am feeling and how your relationship with 2rings does cause me to look at the negative.
The only negative I have received from the people I have come out to is their concern for my relationship with KT. Not my husband, nor 2Rings. This may be because I present the happiness first, problems aren't the projection I want here.
You have two people who you love and who love you. That is a big positive for you. For me, I have a husband who loves someone else. I have to give up time with my husband so that he can spend it with you. Those are big negatives for me. How can I present the positive of my husband having a girlfriend? For most people, that is incomprehensible! Most women wouldn't or couldn't put up and deal with what I am. If a friend came to you and said "my husband is having an affair" or "my husband is in love with someone else" - would you immediately look for the positive in the situation - or would you see the negative and feel bad for and concern for your friend? Again MG, it is all perspective and point of view. Are there positives in this situation? Yes, but they are often overshadowed by the negative. For my own sake - do I need to try to focus on the positives more - yes - and I am trying.
I need to run - as I type this 2rings is yelling at me because he's ready to leave and is threatening to leave without me (this is one of those things that you don't have to deal with MG) so I will edit, if needed, when I have time.
Lost421
06-18-2010, 05:33 PM
This is just my opinion, and since I've only been in a poly relationship for a couple of years I don't think it carries a ton of weight, but here it is:
Some poly relationships are inherently primary/secondary. My gf cannot imagine ever living with/having children with her bf. She enjoys the time they have together, but she is thankful I'm the one she's living with and spending the bulk of her time with and could not have the same relationship with her bf. I'm sorry if I'm offending anyone, but sometimes that's just how a poly relationship works out. I'm not applying value judgments on different parts of the relationship, we could as easily call them relationship A and relationship B, but that can be construed as having a value judgment placed on it too. I'm not saying that all poly relationships need be labeled or designated primary/secondary etc, but calling then primary/secondary does work in some cases because it is an accurate description and everyone involved (at least in my situation) is comfortable calling it that. I'm not saying that it's not difficult and a lot of juggling on the poly partner's part (as I'm finding out). I'm the first one to give my wife full credit for having to balance two relationships and I'm understanding when I feel like my relationship needs/wants are not being understood or responded to, but there comes a point where it's not just a momentary pang of jealousy and it really starts to bug me and I have to voice my opinions or risk feeling resentment for her and her bf, which is the last thing I want.
The concerns and feelings of mono spouses of poly partners may seem like whining sometimes, but if there are hard feelings and they are articulated in such a way that they are not just venting, I would be very hesitant to call it whining and would be much more comfortable asking the question "so what do you want, then?" Again, I'm not trying to offend anybody but coming from the perspective of having to deal with my wife's business, all the housework, my own job, and all the various other domestic responsibilities when she goes to see her boyfriend (in addition to feeling compersion, which I do) can be pretty frustrating, especially since the same kind of weekend getaway type scenarios are nigh on unobtainable for my wife and I. Of course I want to enjoy that aspect of our relationship, and when someone else is getting it and not you, it creates frustration and can lead to jealousy.
Lucky enough for me I have my own relationship with a new gf and I'm now getting those weekend getaway scenarios. Unfortunate that my wife has voiced her frustrations that when I go away she feels like she gets stuck with all the domestic chores. I'm not sure I would call it venting or whining on her part because I realize that yes in fact I am skiving off all the weekend chores to go snuggle with my gf. I'm glad she told me, because now we have both been on both sides of this situation, and it has created more understanding for both of us. Now when one of us goes away for the weekend we get as much of the housework done on Thursday and Friday as we can and that way whoever is going away doesn't have to feel guilty about leaving behind the dirty dishes, and the person staying home for the weekend can enjoy having the place to themselves instead of making it livable again.
I'm not in any way trying to say that my wife and her bf have it easier than me, heck, they seem to have more relationship frustrations then she and I do! As for the dinner/dessert analogy, I apologize if I offended anyone. It wasn't my intention to place value judgments on different positions in poly relationships. I'm just trying to describe how the relationships are different, not that one is more valuable than the other. I'm not trying to say that one is better than the other, they both have their own set of frustrations and disappointments and joys and satisfactions. Sometimes you just want what the other person has, that whole "grass is always greener on the other side" fallacy. Again, my apologies if I offended anyone; I'm just telling it how I see it.
R
:) Sorry there should be a nice little quote here but I can't figure out how to quote just part of a post so I'll have to paraphrase. Lost's wife expressed her feelings about the domestics and they were able to figure out a way to make it better. That is exactly how this expressing thing can work positively. I call it "baby steps", it's like all this emotion comes up and swirls around but when it settles down if you can pin point the specific issue which is upsetting you then you can figure out one practical little baby step that can move you to a whole new place.
After two years of dealing with our situation I can now see positives. One of them is having W in my life as well as in Z's. Z does not do male friendships well. When I met him he literally had a harem of girlfriends (some sexual some not) that were all meeting different needs. I suppose what happened was I was able to meet 80% of his needs so most of the others fell away, but he still needs W for the other 20%. She is pretty much his only real, deep quality friend, she is an amazing person and very respectful of my relationship with Z, as I try to be of her relationship with him. I think our relationship would be less rich without her. Maybe our whole relationship would be missing dessert.
Another positive is connecting with this forum. Because of my personal blog I participate in marriage forums but the quality of discussion and the emotional intelligence which generally exists in this forum far exceeds anything I have found anywhere else. I think to be successful in poly (in whatever capacity) pushes us all to become the very best that we can be in relationship. So I would like to give a big thumbs up to all of us and a thank you to whoever is responsible for setting up and sustaining this forum.
Sage
SchrodingersCat
06-19-2010, 07:57 AM
On the plus side I think my wife and I have a much deeper emotional connection because we have had to deal with the hard stuff, the tough decisions, and all the mundane bits of life that get in the way of just having fun.
I think this is an important point.
It's easy to love someone when you have no responsibilities together.
When a couple has to deal with each other's shit, knows how bad it smells, and still chooses to love each other and work on the relationship, that's when you know you really have something valuable.
So maybe it would be helpful for those of you whose husbands have other, carefree relationships, to remember that even though it's no fun to do the dirty work, you're the one he's spending his life with, putting up with your shit (because you know you have it too), and coming home to at the end of it all.
Some relationships naturally suit a prescribed secondary model. Flirty, fun, almost like a mini vacation. Not everyone's secondary relationship is that relaxed, as everyone builds their relationships differently.
Mono people obviously don't call their relationships primary and secondary, they just have "relationships." Yet, some mono relationships are more committed, with shared responsibilities such as children, finances, household responsibilities. Other mono relationships are more casual, just fun and partying.
Then you bring these same relationship styles into a poly context, and they acquire these distinctions as "secondary" and "primary." But I suspect that these are just formalisms of something that already happens in mono relationships.
Ariakas
06-19-2010, 03:17 PM
Then you bring these same relationship styles into a poly context, and they acquire these distinctions as "secondary" and "primary." But I suspect that these are just formalisms of something that already happens in mono relationships.
Good point s-cat....:)
KatTails
06-19-2010, 05:56 PM
I think this is an important point.
It's easy to love someone when you have no responsibilities together.
When a couple has to deal with each other's shit, knows how bad it smells, and still chooses to love each other and work on the relationship, that's when you know you really have something valuable.
So maybe it would be helpful for those of you whose husbands have other, carefree relationships, to remember that even though it's no fun to do the dirty work, you're the one he's spending his life with, putting up with your shit (because you know you have it too), and coming home to at the end of it all.
Thank you SchrodingersCat - this is the point I was trying to get across. You did a much better and more succinct job of stating it. MG has not and most likely will not get to know 2rings at the level that I do because of our shared experiences as husband and wife. Does this take away from the love that they have? ABSOLUTELY NOT! Have they had a drama-filled, tough first year of their relationship? Yes. Does she love him enough to stick around? Yes. So I do know that they love each other and want to make this work. My point is the experiences that him and I have are monumentally different than the experiences that they have had.
I often get criticized because I tend to look at the negatives of this situation. I think as a mono that is pretty normal. This site helps me to see that there are other monos out there that are having the same experiences - and that THEY understand what I am going through. We all want to be understood. However, I often read the blogs and posts of polys - because I do want to learn more about this and understand how 2rings and MG are feeling. We come from two different ways of thinking and two different perspectives. Instead of criticizing or getting frustrated because someone sees things differently - we should try to have empathy and sympathy for each other and what we are experiencing.
My husband is my life. I have no regrets for marrying him, having children with him or staying in our marriage while accepting his poly lifestyle. But it is hard. It is a huge adjustment. It is a rollercoaster of emotions. Some days things are good and some days things are bad. I am doing the best I can to learn about this and to be accepting of this. I am not progressing at the rate that 2rings and MG would like - but I have come a LONG way. I am proud of myself even if no one else is.
Thanks - Kat
MonoVCPHG
06-19-2010, 08:41 PM
I am proud of myself even if no one else is.
Thanks - Kat
I'm not just proud of you, I'm blown away by your strength in this!
and I am honestly not posting it for the sake of being provocative (or as Z says, I'm not being a troll) but.....I think some poly relationships could be a form of cheating.
Being out in the open doesn't necessarily mean it isn't cheating just that you have the guts to tell your partner. Leaving a relationship because your partner wants to add another party isn't an option for many of us. If you love your partner, you don't want to lose them and you want them to be happy. There are also all the financial and family issues holding you together.
Cheating is a horrible word, maybe I should replace it with "avoidance"? in a big relationship (no practical label: e.g. marriage, long term, committed etc.) both parties are responsible for the life that has been built. If that means that because of children, work, financial pressure or whatever, you have lost or are challenged by the ability to be as intimate, passionate and present in the "now" as you would like; to then go and find that which is lost or difficult, with another person, is surely avoidance at best or at worst a form of cheating?
Sage
River
06-19-2010, 09:23 PM
One of several or many things you're leaving out of this portrait is the real possibility that a new partner experience can bring freshness and vitality and enhanced loving into an existing partnership experience, Sage. I've experienced that, so I know it can happen.
Thanks for that river and I'm not saying that it can't. I have actually found that in my own experience. But I do think it is something that needs to be looked at, especially with all the feedback I have received in this thread. Being Poly does not make us immune to cheating or avoidance.
Z (who isn't one for too much in-depth relationship thought) came up with the idea that he can't be with his other, emotionally or physically unless things are right with us first. That gives me a lot of reassurance that he wont take an escape route if there is something that is difficult going on with us that needs sorting.
Sage
Ariakas
06-19-2010, 11:27 PM
Through my own jealousies I have realized that I have a tendency to do too much and then feel resentful about it. I am trying to let go of a lot of the domestic stuff that I have been conditioned and conditioned myself to believe is necessary.
Great self observation.
Its a weakness in me too. Apply it to anyone I am trying to hold onto or impress and I put more of myself into it and then have reciprocal expectations...which is actually where my personal resentment comes from.
I either need to stop being so...giving (wrong word but can't thnk of anything else) or...stop expecting the same in return
I opted to stop the expectations. I wouldn't be me if I didn't give myself...:)
SchrodingersCat
06-21-2010, 07:13 PM
and I am honestly not posting it for the sake of being provocative (or as Z says, I'm not being a troll) but.....I think some poly relationships could be a form of cheating.
*giggle* colour me provoked! :)
Being out in the open doesn't necessarily mean it isn't cheating just that you have the guts to tell your partner. Leaving a relationship because your partner wants to add another party isn't an option for many of us. If you love your partner, you don't want to lose them and you want them to be happy. There are also all the financial and family issues holding you together.
If I may interpret, it sounds like you're saying "feeling trapped" does not constitute "giving consent." A spouse might say "I'm going to do this, and if you don't like it, get out" and you might feel that you can't get out, but you sure as hell don't support his behaviour.
I was raised very independently, and even though I am not currently financially independent, I can't imagine myself in a situation where I couldn't leave. If I were to up and leave my husband, I would be slightly screwed for a while, as I found a job and housing. My standard of living would go down several orders of magnitude, and I could forget about finishing my degree any time soon. I think it's unhealthy to allow yourself to be in a situation where you couldn't get out if you wanted to. I would hate to be the spouse of someone who was staying with me only because they had to, not because they wanted to.
Cheating is a horrible word, maybe I should replace it with "avoidance"? in a big relationship (no practical label: e.g. marriage, long term, committed etc.) both parties are responsible for the life that has been built. If that means that because of children, work, financial pressure or whatever, you have lost or are challenged by the ability to be as intimate, passionate and present in the "now" as you would like; to then go and find that which is lost or difficult, with another person, is surely avoidance at best or at worst a form of cheating?
As I see it, cheating is all about the consent of your partner(s), not your motives for doing it. Whatever your reasons for going out and getting another relationship, and they may or may not be good reasons, it's only cheating if your spouse says you're not allowed.
I feel, personally, that staying with someone when you know they're in another relationship, constitutes consent. Again, this is because I can't imagine myself in a situation where it was impossible to leave. RedPepper is the perfect example of someone whose life is completely tied up with another person, several in fact, and she's one of the loudest proponents that you can always leave any relationship if you want to.
After a spouse has announced they're going to have other relationships, I get the impression that many partners decide that they love that person enough to stay with them even though they're doing this really hurtful, painful thing. Those are just the people who end up here, looking for support as their poly spouse explores the lifestyle. Obviously there are others who say "to hell with that" and hit the road.
Morningglory629
06-22-2010, 03:52 PM
SC- great post...very succinct and great example!:)
I was trying to reply to SC"s post while reading the post about Eckhart Tolle (over in the spirituality section)and my pain-body got activated big time. In the end I just had to leave it. Even now, the next morning I feel it all coming up again. The pain is around leaving a long term relationship, which is what i did, and believe me the reality of it can be a lot heavier than you would ever think if you haven't done it.
When I say cheat what I mean is that I think it's cheating if you avoid dealing with things in one relationship because you have another one you can take refuge in if the need arises. An example of this could be if you have a hefty domestic load which is a stress in relationship A and seek refuge from that in relationship B, without making an effort to address the stresses in relationship A.
Sage
Morningglory629
06-23-2010, 04:06 AM
:) Hope things are better today
and that is helping me to find the positives in polyamory, even though for me at the moment monogamy would be easier (I think).
I left a relationship I wasn't happy in and one of the results has been a big come down in standard of living, which doesn't worry me that much. What does worry me is that I am working ten hours a day doing work that doesn't sustain me. I get down because I see it as such a waste of my time.
This is where I depart from old Meister Tolle. I used to try and accept the situation, now I try and fix it. I was working hard to pay off some debts. Well no more. I am going to save most of the money I'm earning in these big contracts so that i can afford to take a break and get my writing career into a more financial phase.
Thanks for your concern MG. Really appreciated.
Sage
I was going to call this post "All Quiet on the Western Front" because that's an apt description of my week but who the hell would read that so Crossing Over is a bit more intriguing don't you think?
So, what do I mean? Do your relationships cross over? i.e. when you're with one partner do you talk about your other relationships or do you try and stay present with who you're with at the time? Do they come up in the bedroom? Z's other love W definitely does and it feels a little weird but kind of natural as well.
I used to go through periods of upset about it because I was worried I wasn't exciting enough for Z on my own and he had to keep bringing up W during sex (his big fantasy is a threesome). So we tried excluding all talk of her but that seemed unatural because in Z's mind we are very much a V, "he loves his girls" She's his second best friend (after me) (just a label for understanding purposes) and they talk every couple of days so it is natural that she come up in normal conversation a lot too. It reminds me of Princess Di's comment about Charles and Camilla " There are three of us in this marriage". Ha, imagine the royal family accepting polyamory?
I know there is no "normal" but wondering how others deal with this?
Sage
My daughter and her husband came for dinner and I thought I would try out some of Morning Glory's advice about putting a positive spin on Z being poly.
It seems she was happier with my grudging acceptance than me embracing the situation. She called us "abnormal" and asked me not to talk of it in front of her husband because he couldn't handle it.
I don't mind being different but I thought "abnormal" was a bit strong.
MonoVCPHG
06-26-2010, 11:23 PM
Unfortunately "abnormal" is a pretty tame word in my experience. I've got a friend who knows all about my relationship but has asked me not to mention it to his wife. He is worried she won't want me around him anymore.
I've got a friend who knows all about my relationship but has asked me not to mention it to his wife. He is worried she won't want me around him anymore.
Don't you find that really sad? Even Z (who is the one who wants the secondary relationship) is very wary of me talking about any of this. I find it really interesting that being honest about ourselves can be such an issue.
Sage
Morningglory629
06-27-2010, 01:22 AM
Sorry to hear that Sage. I guess I have been really lucky with whom I have come out to about being poly. Also I think I probably know who will be accepting and who won't so I have been selective in sharing. Hope it gets better with your daughter or that she sees that everyone is happy and eventually is okay with it. May take a little time. Then again some people just won't accept. :( And don't forget women have been putting up with cheating husbands for years so that is viewed as a little more mainstream. For some people it is easier to think that a woman is a victim of her circumstance rather than an active participant in exploring her happiness via alternative means. Keep looking for the positives!:)
Yeah. That daughter, after Z, is my best friend and I sense this is going to be a bit of a journey for us. I had her when I was very young and she has often taken on the more conservative role in our relationship. Her embracing Christianity hasn't helped the situation.
I do worry that in being upfront about aspects of your life that can be perceived as "abnormal" people are so confronted they no longer see you, only that one confronting aspect.
As an aside I was doing some polyamory research and came across the fact that one of the first references to polyamory was made by Morning glory Zell-Ravenheart in the late 1980s, any coincidence?
Smiles
Sage
ak2381
06-27-2010, 04:51 AM
Sage,
I have loved reading your thread. It is great in depth discussion about poly vs. mono and how we feel about the different points we are all at. And the latest seems to be about coming out. DH and I have decided not to come out. It would never work in our family and among our friends. His brothers know but they don't really understand how it works. They just think "Hey cool wife, she lets her husband sleep around". They just doing seem to grasp that there is so much more to it than that. One of his brothers while stands behind DH no matter what his decision doesn't agree with how we came into this because of all the cheating. His other brother is d-bag most of the time so it really doesn't matter what he thinks.
Our families are bible thumping church addicts where they have strong enough opinions about homosexuality. Forget poly!
So for that sake it is a lifestyle we choose to live in peace and so far have been very successful at working towards that. Its a personal choice.
Thanks Ak, I'm really happy for you the way things are going. Things are going well for us too but I have an unusual situation that maybe you could give me your thoughts on; anyone else feel free to jump in as well.
OK, Z knew W before me, but for a variety of reasons their relationship has grown in the two years we have been together. In the beginning I set some firm boundaries around their friendship, i.e. cuddling is OK, naked massages are not. I should say here that W and I are on good terms, she has stayed with us and we have stayed with her. We've all cuddled up in bed together (Z in the middle).
Anyway I set the boundaries when I was still holding out for my fantasy one-on-one relationship. I suppose I asked her to back off, from memory I said "I want to have a beautiful, committed, passionate relationship and I can't do that if he's in love with you" Hey it was a pivotal conversation, you remember these things.
Z feels that because of that conversation their relationship can't go any further. W has put up a wall which he keeps bashing up against.
I have emailed her and told her that I have been exploring polyamory and am now in a more accepting space regarding their relationship. She responded with something about Z and polygamy. She hadn't heard of polyamory. I sent her a good definition from wikipedia. That was weeks ago, she was supposed to come to stay but canceled. They have resumed their platonic phone calls and texts as if nothing has changed.
So here's my question. Have I done enough to right the situation? Z's shy and not good at communicating about this kind of thing. Also probably afraid of rejection Unless I intervene they will probably bumble along for years. But then is it really my job to facilitate their relationship? Isn't that going above and beyond?
He is in love with her and she says she loves him but she doesn't want the torment of opening herself up to him (because he will predominately
be with me I guess). Z feels that if I was more supportive and welcoming of her she will feel less vulnerable and reconsider. She has said she would like to go on holiday with us. I think there is also an element of her enjoying having him hanging around. She's older than him by over ten years; it must be a bit of an ego boost.
Any input gratefully received.
Sage
Morningglory629
06-27-2010, 04:28 PM
As an aside I was doing some polyamory research and came across the fact that one of the first references to polyamory was made by Morning glory Zell-Ravenheart in the late 1980s, any coincidence?
Smiles
Sage
No! But this made me laugh, I will have to research MGZ-R! Purely coincidence. Love it, thanks for sharing that bit of trivia!:D
So here's my question. Have I done enough to right the situation? Z's shy and not good at communicating about this kind of thing. Also probably afraid of rejection Unless I intervene they will probably bumble along for years. But then is it really my job to facilitate their relationship? Isn't that going above and beyond?
He is in love with her and she says she loves him but she doesn't want the torment of opening herself up to him (because he will predominately
be with me I guess). Z feels that if I was more supportive and welcoming of her she will feel less vulnerable and reconsider. She has said she would like to go on holiday with us. I think there is also an element of her enjoying having him hanging around. She's older than him by over ten years; it must be a bit of an ego boost.
Any input gratefully received.
No it is not your job to facilitate their relationship, but if you are interested in their happiness it is always good to be supportive of loved ones. You are facilitating your relationship by embracing your love's (W) need for continuing his relationship with Z. You are open to a friendship with her and so in facilitating your relationship with Z you are also lending support to their relationship by providing a safe environment for it to develop at its own pace. You are doing all the right things, and you will eventually see the benefit for yourself. YOU will be happy because they will be happy and secure in all of the dynamics of your relationships. Stay positive. And keep posting!
I knew you'd probably say something like that :) and I know you're right but it feels like I'm putting a noose around my own neck. The thought of them being physical still hurts and me actually helping that to happen....it's asking a lot!
Then there's the issue of what I'm left with if she is mostly playing with him. Who gets left to mop up the pieces? He's such a sensitive wee flower I don't want to see him hurt. Right now our relationship is amazing and I'm loathe to mess with that.
Thoughtfully
Sage
MonoVCPHG
06-28-2010, 03:32 AM
Don't you find that really sad? Even Z (who is the one who wants the secondary relationship) is very wary of me talking about any of this. I find it really interesting that being honest about ourselves can be such an issue.
Sage
I don't find it sad. I know where she is coming from. In a different life...my past...I wouldn't want my ex wife hanging out with a poly woman or guy. I know the the social background that his wife is from. It represents the bulk of our society and I lived there for 36 years. I get his concern and therefore it has no affect on me personaly but it did limit the depth of relationship we could build as friends. I was happy in what we had.
ak2381
06-28-2010, 12:53 PM
MG- If I have read through all the posts correctly then Z is sage's SO, not the secondary. And W is the secondary not sage's SO. Did I get that right Sage?
Two I know it is difficult not to step in and help their relationship. When DH and J have had difficulties communicating it has been very hard not to do what I can. For several reasons. It was going above and beyond in a situation that was already painful and not what I was wanting. But I would rather do it than see either of them in pain. But more importantly it was none of my business. This was their relationship. It was more about letting them workout their own problems than it was the going above and beyond part. I didn't want either of them to feel I was taking sides. So I just let myself be there if either of them neither to vent or talk and then I would go on my way. And that should be enough there.
As for reaching out to W. Offer her someone to talk to but you can't push it. Especially if you are not ready. You need to be honest about how you feel about her. If you are having trouble accepting her that is fine. But let her know in an open and mature way. It is hard to accept the other woman. It is something you don't want to do but as long as she is willing to work with you and take things at your pace and not push you then she is a good find. The point where you feel she is attacking your relationship with Z or pushing your further than you are ready to go or saying hurtful things to or about you then there is something wrong. It could be anyone's fault. But it is about owning to your own feelings. Knowing who you are and feeling confident in what your place is essential and it sounds like you have that.
Have the two of you, being the women in your man's life, ever sat down and talked. Whether it be about the relationships, or just to hang out. It might help.
Let me know what else I can do for you.
Yes you're right. Z is the love of my life (sorry but there are very few other places I can be truly honest about the extent of my feelings for him. Sad to say that most people around me have pretty average relationships at best and waxing lyrical makes them want to throw up). W is his secondary.
Yes you're right about not helping their issues, but Z and W don't actually have any issues yet because they haven't got close enough. Z is telling me that I need to give her permission to move further into their relationship. If I do that then I am definitely happy to back off after that and let them sort themselves out.
She is a good one. She's a lovely person but I don't feel love for her in the way you do with J. Maybe that will come. At the moment she is still very guarded. Z says she's a very private person, which is the total opposite of me. You can probably tell from my postings that I let it all hang out. And she tends to be one way with me (or when I'm around)and another with him which I don't find very honest.
But I guess MG is right. If I am truly accepting of Z's poly nature then I should give my blessing. It is very comforting to know that I have friends, even if you are on the other side of the world who understand and can be supportive.
Sage
ak2381
06-29-2010, 12:27 PM
Yes you're right about not helping their issues, but Z and W don't actually have any issues yet because they haven't got close enough. Z is telling me that I need to give her permission to move further into their relationship. If I do that then I am definitely happy to back off after that and let them sort themselves out.
This here is actually a good thing. She is showing respect as your position in an already established relationship. She wants to give you your space to accept what is happening and give you the time you need. I am not saying take forever doing that. But they know this is painful for you and this respect and lack of pushiness is the foundation of a good relationship for you and W.
She is a good one. She's a lovely person but I don't feel love for her in the way you do with J. Maybe that will come. At the moment she is still very guarded. Z says she's a very private person, which is the total opposite of me. You can probably tell from my postings that I let it all hang out. And she tends to be one way with me (or when I'm around)and another with him which I don't find very honest.
How I feel for J took a very long time to come to that point. I promise it was not always so loving and wonderful. I had points of hate and resentment towards her. But from the sounds of W she is not far from who J is. She is giving you your space and time and waiting for you before taking the go ahead. That is alot of what J did, well DH and J did this after I found out about them. J was actually about ten times more patient with me than DH. J is very private as well. She lurks around here on the boards reading but she doesn't post a whole heck of a lot, although she knows she is more than welcome to and I don't have a problem with it. She and I come from hours and hours of talking, getting together, DH working with us. It wasn't all roses from the get go. There was alot of pain and anger. But she was very patient and understood that this was probably the hardest thing for me. She never made me feel as though I was loosing my place as the wife. She always reminded me she was the one coming into an already established marriage and would give me anything I needed to make me feel comfortable. And this is where we are now. Alot of work later. And things will never be perfect. But things are very wonderful at the moment.
But I guess MG is right. If I am truly accepting of Z's poly nature then I should give my blessing. It is very comforting to know that I have friends, even if you are on the other side of the world who understand and can be supportive.
Its not so much about giving your blessing. You are not going to want to do that right off. It is about working together with these other people in your life. The blessing will come once you are comfortable. The acceptance will come. It is not an over night thing for us monos who did not expect this. It can take months or years. It is about taking the next leap and working through that step for a couple of weeks and then take the next one. You tell your SO, hey I feel good now, why don't we try you doing this and see how I feel. And it is about constantly talking. DH and I just had one of those talks last night. Yes they need your blessing but they also need you. You are essential to this. I have always found "accepting" to be an interesting way of putting it. It is learning to find a new way to live your life if this is what you want. If you have to walk away you are no less of a person. You have to do what is right for you. That doesn't mean you haven't "accepted" this or not given your blessing. It simply means you have a different idea of how you want to live. But if you stay together and learn to be happy then your life will be rich and you will have added someone new and special into it, as long as she continues to treat you with respect and consideration. Once there is a rift there it is time to re evaluate and make sure she is still good for your relationship.
Take your time and don't push yourself further than you are ready. Sounds like W is going along with these thoughts as well since she is waiting for your go ahead. Keep us updated!
Well I did it. I emailed W and told her that I now feel that I am able to have the kind of relationship I want with Z without needing the boundaries around her relationship with him that I originally set. (I didn't say it quite like that, but you get the picture).
It took her a couple of days but she got back in touch with Z and told him that she can't take their relationship any further as it would "ruin her equilibrium".
This was one of my fears as I think while he saw me as the only thing limiting their relationship, he had hope for more with her. But at least she's finally put her cards on the table and Z seems fine about it at the moment. He has been fine before but it doesn't seem to last.
Personally I have difficulty understanding how if you love someone you would keep playing with them. She is an intelligent woman and he is a very sexual man (she knows this), so why would she offer him naked massages, cuddle him in her bed and sunbathe naked with him. Surely she can see that she is upsetting his equilibrium?
Sage
Morningglory629
07-02-2010, 04:07 AM
MG- If I have read through all the posts correctly then Z is sage's SO, not the secondary. And W is the secondary not sage's SO. Did I get that right Sage?
Thanks for the clarification. I hope it didn't confuse the point I was making.
Well I did it. I emailed W and told her that I now feel that I am able to have the kind of relationship I want with Z without needing the boundaries around her relationship with him that I originally set. (I didn't say it quite like that, but you get the picture).
It took her a couple of days but she got back in touch with Z and told him that she can't take their relationship any further as it would "ruin her equilibrium".
This was one of my fears as I think while he saw me as the only thing limiting their relationship, he had hope for more with her. But at least she's finally put her cards on the table and Z seems fine about it at the moment. He has been fine before but it doesn't seem to last.
Personally I have difficulty understanding how if you love someone you would keep playing with them. She is an intelligent woman and he is a very sexual man (she knows this), so why would she offer him naked massages, cuddle him in her bed and sunbathe naked with him. Surely she can see that she is upsetting his equilibrium?
Sage
Jeez! This must be frustrating! Kind of sounds sort of like Mohegan's situation (sort of). Not really understanding the vagueness and passivity- the "playing" as you say. Maybe she needed the boundaries too and wasn't ready to make the jump into entering a poly relationship. I understand you are questioning her intentions with him and are concerned for his feelings being hurt by this kind of rejection. Anyway, how are the two of you doing with eachother (you and Z) since the lifting of the original boundaries? Are you feeling insecure or more settled?
Mohegan
07-02-2010, 05:15 AM
Jeez! This must be frustrating! Kind of sounds sort of like Mohegan's situation (sort of). Not really understanding the vagueness and passivity- the "playing" as you say.
You're right it really does sound like my situation, in ways.
Sage- what has really helped us is talking. We seem to be having a deep conversation about something every night. Either individual realizations, issues to work out, things we need help with, answers to earlier questions, just filling eachother in on the day and how we felt about it.
It's been really helpful. Last night for example, while writing my blog on here I was finaly able to realize my issues with them sleeping together. He and I talked about it and I was able to "I know there isn't a lot of validation for it, but this is what I'm feeling" and it led to a lot of talking, reaffirmation, and moving forward.
Another thing that was helpful, and I know it is controversial on here, but a few days ago we set up a list of rules. Some are for us and how we communicate issues with our secondaries and some were for what we expect out of relationships in general. It was nice. It was something I didn't think we needed, but at the insistance of a friend we gave it a try and I feel a lot better now.
As for her "games" that is where we are similar. I feel my DH's G/f is young and unsure of what she wants currently. Nothing wrong with that, she's 19. But her confusion/experimentation, comes across as someone just looking for attention, not someone invested in the same way as DH is. But the 3 of us are learning together.
It's discussed all of on here, but my best advice is communicate. When I started expressing the things I thought would upset him, or hadn't really figured out myself, but was at least able to say "hey heres where my head is at the moment". I was pleasantly surprised to find he was more than willing to help me work through things and give me the answers I was seeking. We've had some hard talks, saying things that we knew would be hard for the other to hear, but needed said. We've made the most progress when we've been able to do that.
Best of luck to you!
Anyway, how are the two of you doing with eachother (you and Z) since the lifting of the original boundaries? Are you feeling insecure or more settled?
We are doing really well. I've come to see this whole experience as actively growing our love.
As far as W is concerned I am still a bit "unresolved", can't think of another way to describe it. I'm going to read Mohegan's story, maybe that will give me some clarity. Off the top of my head it's like their relationship is giving them each what they need, but those needs are different. I understand what Z needs are but I am very much at a loss about W.
Maybe I need to find out but we are very different people. I am upfront and love to communicate while I find her very private and guarded. When we get together I find it quite bizarre; she befriends me as if Z is almost non-existent. I have to be the one to keep encouraging her to be close with us or even him.
I email her my feelings because the written word is my preferred method of communication and she totally ignores me but goes to Z because she thinks I should call her and arrange a time to talk with her. I find talking about emotional things really difficult because I usually end up talking through my tears.
In many ways we are still at a stale mate.
Tears
Sage
This is not a glib question it is totally genuine. Most mono couples find it hard to find quality time for one relationship on top of work and family commitments. I am really interested in how you polys manage multiple relationships?
And its not just the physical time you're with someone, that seems to be just the tip of the ice berg. There's all the emotional/relationship stuff that gets thrown up as a result of the physical time together.
For the sake of my relationship with Z I'm going to have to start putting time into my relationship with his other (W). Things are getting a bit awkward there. Imagine if I had someone else, it would definitely impinge on our primary relationship because our quality time together would be so limited. I work long hours and he has his kids here every other weekend and school holidays (vacations). Z won't have any poly activity when his kids are here as he thinks his ex would stop them coming because of his dubious lifestyle.
Maybe it's more difficult coming to this kind of lifestyle in your forties when your lives are already constructed?
Thoughts please.
Ariakas
07-05-2010, 06:30 PM
This is not a glib question it is totally genuine. Most mono couples find it hard to find quality time for one relationship on top of work and family commitments. I am really interested in how you polys manage multiple relationships?
Google Calendar :D...(poly humour there btw)
Honestly I think its about ensuring the time you DO spend is quality. Couples if they actually look at the time they spend together quickly realize a lot of it is fluff. It really holds little meaning and actually dilutes the time they do have. Instead of having great times all the time, you just have time together.
Managing time and having time apart, can make the time you do spend more enriching. Better quality and less filler talk. At least thats what I found when we were dating. I would have date, she would have a date, all three of us would have a date...then it would be my wife and I and we found we missed each other and it became quality time.
Thanks Ariakis
Franklin's work on Xeromag was also useful. I really like the idea idea that time with others is often incorporated with the three of us, especially in the beginning. I was looking at time more often being split away as a twosome and as our relationship is only a couple of years old, we have his kids every other weekend, and he is my favorite person to spend time with, it's been an ongoing problem for me.
Mohegan asked why I'd rather him keep his relationship with W than have someone closer. Time is the main reason. She lives away and so impacts our time less. Anyway I am making a concerted effort to reach out to her so that she will be comfortable enough to come and spend time with us in August (this will save him wanting to go up there until I can have time off work in October). And yes, I'm using the google calendar to make sure things don't fall on "kid weekends".
Oh and Morning Glory if you're reading this I "came out" (with positiveness and even enthusiasm) to my sister yesterday. She was a bit perplexed, she's not in "relationship space" at the moment. She's a ballet mom and would rather sit around watching girls in leotards prance endlessly across sprung floors. Each to their own, but she was interested and accepting, that's the main thing to me.
Well it seems my quest to "figure this all out" is moving ahead well.
We had one of our blissful just-us-2 two weekends. Z read something that really clicked with him and he has finally fully accepted himself as poly.
He has decided that he wants to meet some women in our area to build relationships with. Even just a few weeks ago this would have filled me with dread but yesterday morning as he was surfing around different online sites I felt a deep sense of satisfaction that I could enable the man I love to fully explore who he is.
This is a small place but we have found a triad not too far away that we are going to get together with to check out the poly scene around here.
Smiles