Small Town impossibility?

[Jayehare]

I've never used a help forum like this before, so here goes. I have been with my husband (R) for 13 years, married for 8 years. We have two young children and live in a small remote community. Our relationship is good; we have good communication and the sex is still phenomenal. I love him very, very much, and can imagine growing old with him. Unfortunately, I seem to have completely fallen for with a close friend of both of us. I feel this in no way impacts my feelings for my husband, but we live in a small town and I'm not sure that everyone is going to be that open...

From the moment I met L (the friend), 6 years ago, I was somewhat drawn to him. For years, however, I just chalked that up to him being someone I just connected with. However, eight months ago, things began to shift. I found myself fantasizing about him constantly, to the point that I felt guilt when I spoke to his partner. I tried everything I could to change my thinking, but whenever I had nothing else to think of, I would find myself thinking of him. At times I tried to convince myself that just thinking about him wasn't that bad, and that it was 'safe' - I also did some research and felt that my feelings were normal, but it was still frightening. Things began to get intense between L and I. The energy began to grow, and it was clear that it wasn't one sided. It got to such a point, that I knew I had to express it. One weekend his partner was away, and I had an opportunity to go over there with another friend. Once the other friend left, L and I kept on talking (and drinking, to be honest), and the conversation went to relationships and fidelity. His partner had been unfaithful a number of times, and so I asked if she would be okay if he were to cross that line. He said he didn't know... there was that loaded pause, and I simply asked if we should talk about the elephant in the room. I looked at him, he leaned in, and kissed me.

That was a month and a half ago. Since that night, we've had two other encounters. We've had many conversations about how complicated this all is, and that it couldn't work in a small community. We've tried to stop, and failed. I couldn't handle the dishonesty, and so I started to make steps to see how open my husband could be. He was surprisingly open, and the conversations that we've had have been great and energizing. He even knows that I have feelings for L - buuuut, does not know what has already transpired. I tried to convince L to allow me to talk to his partner, but he flat out refused, stating that he thought their relationship was too fragile for this sort of arrangement, and that his partner was too insecure. Ironically, she has been with other men with his blessing, but it won't allow him the same latitude. He also says that he couldn't handle her developing strong feelings for someone else, but has developed strong feelings for me. I think he's a bit of a coward, but I know I can't force the situation.

My husband and I have been getting along great. The intimacy is amazing - and (this is the weird part) I feel almost exactly the same when my husband holds me, kisses me, touches me as I do when I am with L. I am totally attracted to my husband ... and to L. I love them both.

But - here's my question - how do I honour my love for L and move forward with integrity if he isn't willing to push the boundaries? I think he's wrong about his partner (I know her really well), but that's not my place. I think it's his insecurities getting in the way of recognizing what we have. But I can't force the issue, can I? And even if we could move forward, is it possible in a small town (less than 250 people ...)?

[nycindie]

. . . I can't force the issue, can I?

Nope.

Let it go. Unless L's partner consents, what you'd be doing is requiring him to lie and cheat. I wouldn't do that to anyone I loved, nor to the partner of a loved one. Conduct yourself with dignity and good ethics. You can simply enjoy the deliciousness of your feelings for him without allowing yourself to act on them. If he wants to approach his partner about opening his relationship with her, that's his business and not yours.

[Jayehare]

thanks nycindie,

I don't want to lie or cheat, which is why I want to explore how to bring this above board. But I agree with you - it isn't my place to interfere.

But how do I enjoy the deliciousness of my feelings without feeling tortured when I can't act on them? Because I try and do just that, but then I feel sad - like we're breaking up and I'm just torturing myself with memories ...

[nycindie]

But how do I enjoy the deliciousness of my feelings without feeling tortured when I can't act on them?

Well, geez, you have to be a grown-up, quite frankly. He's not a shiny toy being taken away and you're not a two-year-old. He and his partner are real people in a committed relationship and cheating will hurt them. We have to grow up and face the facts when we can't have what we want. The torture comes from your unwillingness to accept reality, and nothing else.

You can't always get what you want.


The trick to enjoying the feelings without acting on them is to stay present and not to let yourself feel attached to a person or those feelings. You have to be in the now to do that. Attachment is about wishing and expectation. If you can really just appreciate every moment you are with him, in the here and nowness of being there, and let go of thinking you should have him if you want him, all the unrealistic wistfulness and the daydreams of him being yours, you can enjoy being with him in the present. Basically, you have to fully be there in every present moment as if there is no tomorrow, act like it is your last moment on earth. And by letting go of the fantasies, you can see him for who he is and be his friend - a real friend who wouldn't tempt him to cheat and lie!

Look, think of it this way - you can have a delicious meal in a restaurant and wish that the wonderful taste of that bite you just took will last forever, but you know it cannot. Eventually, it will go down your throat, you will leave the restaurant, and life moves on. You can only savor it in the moment. You know you can't take the deliciousness of that bite with you, so you let yourself enjoy it right then and there. It's the same thing with a crush on someone. You don't need to act upon it to enjoy it. Let yourself feel excited and giddy, and then let it go when you've parted company. Real love is unconditional and free of pain - pain only comes from trying desperately to hold onto it.

Just be, and enjoy, BUT - and this is a biggie -- do not let yourself be deluded and seduced by the euphoric chemical reaction that is going on between you two. Just don't go there! Because you've already gone too far, and created lies for him to tell, so be very careful not to slip up some more. He simply is not free to explore this with you, no matter how tempting it is to cheat, and you need to discipline yourself and act with integrity. If you refuse to use the will power it takes to behave and act ethically, and you cannot resist indulging in flirtations, then maybe you shouldn't be around him at all.

[LovingRadiance]

(I know her really well), but that's not my place.

It's not your place to press honesty, integrity and ethical behavior?
But it is your place to enable lying and cheating?

You are having an affair. You are disrespecting and mistreating this woman.

Cheating is not polyamory.
Feel free to read my story for frame of reference regarding what personal experience I base my assertations on.

So long as you are allowing yourself to participate in unethical, deceitful behavior-you are not ready to explore polyamory. That goes for him as well.

[dingedheart]

2 other encounters. What does that mean exactly ....just more kissing or full on sex.?

You want him to be honest and up front with his wife yet you aren't with your husband. You are letting him believe this is coming from some theoretical place.....isn't that dishonest.

If roles were reversed would you want to be treated like this......being sold this as a means to an end.

I think you need to tell him the complete truth then he can make an informed decision on what's right for him. After being truthful an honest with your husband and working out the aftermath if there is any .....then you can look to your bf to do the same with his spouse.


Good luck D

[AnnabelMore]

My suggestions. Deal with things in order. Order of what's your responsibility, order of what could ruin your life if you don't manage it right, what you can theoretically control, and order of importance.

First things first. Come clean to your husband. Apologize profusely, tell him how much you love him, make no excuses, dont try to justify yourself, you were in the wrong and you won't do it again and you can't live with lying to him. This almost certainly WILL come back to bite you and it WILL be worse if it happens any other way. For example, what if L breaks down and tells his wife, and she confronts your husband. Don't let that happen. Reclaim your integrity. A crush is no excuse to cheat, and fear of consequences is no excuse to maintain a lie.

Next. Assuming your husband is ok, tell L that you can't see him anymore -- can't be alone together, can't be more than very casual friends in group social situations -- if he won't come clean to his wife. This could either save or end their marriage, but at least they won't be in this dysfunctional place anymore. You're right, you shouldn't force the issue, it needs to be his choice. But you can choose not to be a part of an unhealthy, unfair, unethical situation. What right will you have to complain, if she gets an STD from a partner you didn't know she had and it gets passed on to you and your husband from liaisons that she (and he, if you skip step one) didn't know you were having?? As for feelings, he needs to man up and confront his own hypocrisy. What sort of partnership do they even have at this point, with so many lies floating around in it?

Last. Assuming that L and his wife are ok, then you can decide how you want to tell or not tell the other 200+ people in your town.

Bottom line, you can't have your cake and eat it too, and the fallout could be so much worse, in so many ways, including perception of you in your small town, if you let self-interest continue to guide you over doing what's fair for all involved.

Good luck!!

[Jayehare]

He simply is not free to explore this with you, no matter how tempting it is to cheat, and you need to discipline yourself and act with integrity.

Thank you for your direct honesty. I have been acting like a bit of a teenager, I admit. My feelings are getting in the way. I guess I've been justifying my actions by trying to simply validate that my feelings for L are real and important. I've been conveniently ignoring the cheating part - feeling like if my husband knows how I feel it's almost as good as him knowing what I've done. I see that it isn't.

I can't believe that I got myself into this mess. I wish I had acted with integrity from the beginning - spoken about my feelings instead of acting on them. I know that it's okay to love two people, but not to act the way that we've been acting.

Basically, I'm a bit of an asshole, aren't I?

But do I have the guts to come clean?

[Jayehare]

Cheating is not polyamory.
Feel free to read my story for frame of reference regarding what personal experience I base my assertations on.


Where can I read your story? I would be very interested.

[ThatGirlInGray]

LR's blog on this site is here (http://www.polyamory.com/forum/showthread.php?t=6352). Otherwise the link in her signature goes to her wordpress blog.

[nycindie]

I have to admit that I skimmed past the part about your "two other encounters" - so, as Dinged asked, what does that mean -- exactly? Very incriminating that you didn't answer that question! So, if you actually did fuck this guy and only hinted to your hubs that you have feelings for him, without coming clean about what you really did, oh my you are a liar and cheater, too. I was, for some reason, thinking you were only putting L in a position of being the cheater.

**This is me wagging my finger**

I should have read more closely. Yes, you've been acting like an irresponsible teenager and that isn't cute at all. Nor is it poly. You can call it love, but it seems more like willful and childish spoiled behavior, just getting what you want. I suggest re-reading the posts others have contributed - Annabel's suggestions are spot on. You need to stay away from this guy and repair what your betrayal has done to your marriage before going any further into ethical non-monogamy of any sort. There has got to be some issues you weren't looking at for you to act this way. Dig deep and find out what they are, and work toward getting your integrity and self-esteem back by living esteemably from now on.

[Jayehare]

2

I think you need to tell him the complete truth then he can make an informed decision on what's right for him. After being truthful an honest with your husband and working out the aftermath if there is any .....then you can look to your bf to do the same with his spouse.


Good luck D

thanks for the wake up. As I said above, I wish I had acted with integrity from the beginning. I should be completely honest with my husband, but I know that L would be terrified of me doing that.

This is so silly ... such an old story. I feel like a fool. I never thought I'd be this person...

[Jayehare]

I have to admit that I skimmed past the part about your "two other encounters" - so, as Dinged asked, what does that mean -- exactly? Very incriminating that you didn't answer that question! So, if you actually did fuck this guy and only hinted to your hubs that you have feelings for him, without coming clean about what you really did, oh my you are a liar and cheater, too. I was, for some reason, thinking you were only putting L in a position of being the cheater.

**This is me wagging my finger**



Wag away ... The encounters were kissing and such ... no full on sex. Not that it matters much, shades of gray really.

[Jayehare]

My suggestions. Deal with things in order. Order of what's your responsibility, order of what could ruin your life if you don't manage it right, what you can theoretically control, and order of importance.
.....

Bottom line, you can't have your cake and eat it too, and the fallout could be so much worse, in so many ways, including perception of you in your small town, if you let self-interest continue to guide you over doing what's fair for all involved.

Good luck!!

I like how harsh everyone is in this forum, and yet so supportive. I need this. Thank you for breaking it down for me, Annabel. I think I was lost in my head and my heart, not accustomed to having feelings for anyone other than my husband, that it all caught me (and L) off guard. We acted before we thought about it, I guess to see if it was real. We haven't slept with each other, I have to say, but the betrayal is the same.

I guess I looked to poly to somehow justify what I was feeling and try to put myself in a different category than your average cheater. But I see now, that while you are all supportive of ethical multiple relationships, what I did was not ethical. I was just your average cheater - in a small town no less.

I am actively not seeing L or even speaking to him right now. I am determined that nothing else will happen. I was holding on to a hope that there was still hope for this to be above board, but I see now that to do that requires coming clean about the past, which would very likely prevent anything of a future for L and I. I won't pretend that doesn't hurt - a lot - but I guess we reap what we sow.

I wonder if I will ever develop feelings for someone else, if I really have poly tendencies, or if this was just a twisted justification for falling for L. I do still adore my husband, and have strong feelings for him, and am still committed.

I guess we will see what the future brings ...

[nycindie]

I should be completely honest with my husband, but I know that L would be terrified of me doing that.

What does that have to do with it? Do you value your marriage or what? It's a little late for L to be terrified, as if he has no responsibility for his actions. Oh my goodness, he needs to grow up too!!!

[AnnabelMore]

If you're capable of loving two people without it diminishing your love for either, you do, in fact, have poly tendencies, it's not a "twisted justification". You just made a mistake. So what if L would be scared? Is your husband a shotgun-wielding hothead? He's been much more understanding than you thought he'd be, he's even shown signs of compersion (positive feelings about your partner feeling love for others, the opposite of jealousy). Why assume he couldn't handle the truth? Isn't that insulting to him? Wouldn't he *want* to know and don't his feelings matter? Won't it be much, much worse if he finds out in some other way (talk about something to be scared of... *that* is a much more explosive scenario in my mind, much harder to get over, and these sorts of things are notorious for coming out one way or another)? What if he somehow finds this very thread?

Food for thought. Moving from cheating to poly is actually not uncommon at all. But it requires a strong base of trust, which means, ironically, revealing that you were untrustworthy in the past. I can't promise it will go well, but as I've said a couple of times now, if you don't do it yourself you choose to live with the specter of it going far worse at a future date not of your choosing. And hey, you haven't had intercourse, which seems to be especially triggering for men in these sorts of situations, so there's that on the side of it potentially going better than you think.

It is, of course, your choice, but wouldn't you rather be the partner he deserves? I myself have cheated, revealed it, and been forgiven, so I know of what I speak. Instead of dwelling on this painful love that you're choosing to assume can't be ethically consummated without even finding out for sure (gotta say, that's the coward's way out, especially if you really do love him), or dwelling on the fact that you did, indeed, make a mistake (who hasn't?)... you could just do the right thing.

[Jayehare]

Thank you Annabel -

My husband has said a couple of times that he wouldn't want to know, but I think that might just be nervous feelings around the whole concept of me being with someone else, since it's not the 'norm'. He has said that he finds the thought of me with another man exciting .... but there is obviously a leap there between being with another man and loving another man that we haven't fully explored. We clearly have a lot of ground work to do between the two of us, I know that.

I so want to go for it, I really do - but as another poster said, it seems like L isn't in a place where he can explore our feelings for each other, so aren't I just causing shit with my own need to go for gold? I know that L being afraid of me saying anything is really not my concern - I have to do what's right for my relationship - but I also want to respect how it may impact his life.

What is your story, Annabel? How did you move from cheating to poly?

[Jayehare]

NYcindie,

I do value my marriage, greatly. And of course we all do need to grow up and take responsibility for our actions, but it isn't always so simple. There are kids involved, and L has made it clear that his relationship isn't that strong right now. He's afraid that his partner (they aren't married, not that that matters much) would take his daughter and prevent him from seeing her and being the father he wants to be. Yeah, I know, he should have thought of that before he and I did what we did, but I've already admitted we made a mistake there.

Coming clean needs to be done carefully and with a full understanding of who's needs are being met by coming clean. Am I doing it so I feel better? Or to move my cause for L and my relationship to be in the open forward? Or am I doing it because people need to know the truth? Even if that truth would hurt? I do think my guy would be able to handle it and forgive me. I'm not certain about L's situation .... and I do care about his situation.

[LovingRadiance]

The behavior-not poly.
My phone-crappy for me typing lomg responses.

My short version-started with an affair.

To you-stop the affair u r in, come clean with hubby, read the story, maybe even together, depends on him, dig deep into yourself to identify the truest form of urself. You may be poly. If so, this is your wake up call.

No more living life 'running on autopilot' (like the majority of people). Now its time to commit to deep honesty with urself and focus on becoming the best gersion of urself-each day.

Its a hard way to start. But the payoff in the end-sublime!!

Good luck!!

[nycindie]

There are kids involved, and L has made it clear that his relationship isn't that strong right now. He's afraid that his partner (they aren't married, not that that matters much) would take his daughter and prevent him from seeing her and being the father he wants to be. . . . I do think my guy would be able to handle it and forgive me. I'm not certain about L's situation .... and I do care about his situation.

Well, if that's his excuse for not being honest, he should've thought about his daughter before playing kissyface with you. But why are you taking on his responsibility instead of your own?

YOU only need to come clean to your husband. You have a commitment to honor. L is responsible to come clean to his partner, and if he doesn't do that, it is not your issue to handle. Yes, you can be concerned about L, but you need to bring your focus back to the person you betrayed! You owe your husband honesty. Have you ever read Journey of the Heart by John Welwood? In it, the author talks about how crucial it is to be fully honest with your partner for intimate relationships to thrive, deepen, and be a source of personal growth. I recommend that book, btw!

Manage your relationship with hubs, and let L manage his relationship with his partner. If he does not want to broach opening up with her, and coming clean about you, then I think it is best you don't see him and risk temptation anymore.

[AnnabelMore]

Hmm, well, if he's explicitly said, multiple times, that he wouldn't want to know, maybe he really means it. I have an obvious strong bias for honesty, for a number of reasons, but there are sometimes nuances.

As for my story, unlike LR's and others whose stories I've read, it didn't go straight from cheating to poly, by any means. I *did* cheat, reveal it, and get forgiven, though, as I said.

Relatively briefly:

Many years ago, I dated Davis. After two years, I slept with an old flame, Ziggy, with whom I was still in love. I told Davis immediately, he was very upset but was willing to move forward together. I had a very rough week deciding what to do -- Ziggy would have been willing to share me, but Davis, who had never even remotely considered the idea of an open relationship, was not. In the end I stayed with Davis for another year, but I pined for Ziggy and our relationship suffered.

Eventually I left, reconnected with Ziggy, and found myself single when that didn't work out. Davis and I remained close friends, then eventually FWBs. I began dating Gia around this time. Davis, one day, suggested that we try a "real" relationship again. I told him that I wouldn't leave Gia, and that he had to decide if he could handle a poly setup. He did a lot of reading and thinking and decided he could. It's been over a year now since he and I have been together again and we've had no problems on the poly front.

A big part of the reason that Davis and I are able to do poly, even though the idea didn't come naturally to him, is that he trusts me completely. Even though I broke his trust in the past, I then looked him straight in the eye and told him, and I know that fact means a lot to him. The knowledge of my infidelity hurt him for a long time, but being deceived in an ongoing way would have been a very different and, I believe, more damaging sort of betrayal.

[AnnabelMore]

I'm not a Christian, much less a Catholic, but I do believe that there's something to the idea that any sin can be forgiven with enough love, but only if you're willing to confess it and ask for absolution, y'know? Just my POV.

[dingedheart]

I think what she is saying is that because of the close and historical aspect of their relationship as 2 couples. That telling her husband the truth would most definitely cascade into his spouse finding out one way or another. The unpredictability of the reaction and subsequent actions on the husbands part going forward is the fear not so much for her but for the bf.


Good news, the town folk seems like less of a problem...today anyway.:)


RE Poly tendencies; I think knowing how you feel or can handle the concept of having multiple romantic relationships is only half of the equation. The other half is the acceptance of your spouse or partner to have the same. So you have to go back to roles reversed situation and not let NRE or the prize on the other side influence your answers because once that door gets opened in hard if not impossible to close. There are plenty of threads here that can attest to that.

[Jayehare]

I think what she is saying is that because of the close and historical aspect of their relationship as 2 couples. That telling her husband the truth would most definitely cascade into his spouse finding out one way or another. The unpredictability of the reaction and subsequent actions on the husbands part going forward is the fear not so much for her but for the bf.



Exactly! It's a small town, and our friends are all shared and all close. So if I come clean with R, then two things could happen (assuming he's okay with it, which I think he would actually be).
1) He decides to not tell anyone else, and then he's burdened by our secret, and I get to feel better about myself (which doesn't seem fair).
2) He speaks openly about it, and it does immediately cascade into L's relationship, with unknown effects.

If I know my guy, he'd keep it private and be burdened by the knowledge whenever we all hang out, which is fairly frequently. Is that fair to him? Especially when he has said that he wouldn't want to know?

At the same time, I get that if I am to move this into legit poly territory, then honesty about what happened is a must. I just can't get past the feeling that L's relationship couldn't get to the same place - meaning I'd be causing a world of hurt and still wouldn't be able to be with L in any sanctioned way. Is that worth it? Just to be truthful?

[Vixtoria]

I just can't get past the feeling that L's relationship couldn't get to the same place - meaning I'd be causing a world of hurt and still wouldn't be able to be with L in any sanctioned way. Is that worth it? Just to be truthful?

I'm going to be a little blunt here. The thing is, you really aren't concerned about the world of hurt, because at this point, there's no way for people NOT to get hurt. What you are concerned about is if you are honest, then you will lose him.

Give yourself a moment to realize that. The reason you are worried is that his spouse will not be willing to work into a poly relationship where you can still see him. It's okay to be worried about that. It is not okay to continually lie to people you claim to care about in order to mask that worry.

Over and over what hubby and I have discussed was that it wasn't the actual act that bothered him when we started. It was the lying. The consistent lying. That has to stop. Period. People are going to be hurt, yes. You'll have to deal with it. But please do not say that your worry is for him. If you were worried ONLY for him, you would want him to be honest with his wife. You are worried that she will not agree, and you will lose him. Own it. Deal with it.

[Jayehare]

You are worried that she will not agree, and you will lose him. Own it. Deal with it.

I'm not worried I'll lose him, as it stands, I already have. My only chance to 'have him' would be to come clean and pursue an up front ploy relationship. I'm worried he'll lose his family if this comes out - access to his daughter, his home, and probably some friends.

I'd lose some friends too, but I'm fairly convinced my relationship would survive. This is where it seems unbalanced.

Of course, if ANYTHING ever happened again, I would come clean, regardless, because we've promised that nothing ever will happen again. If we can't keep that promise (and yes, this is the second time we've made it), then we have to do things differently, and that means being honest and dealing with the mess. He knows this.

[nycindie]

. . . if I am to move this into legit poly territory, then honesty about what happened is a must.

Isn't honesty a must whether you are poly or mono or whatever? Are you willing to be truthful only if it gets you what you want?

Hey, I grew up in a very small town, I know what they're like, but no matter what environment you're in, you can hold your head up high if you act ethically. Hiding a secret makeout session, furtively lusting after someone in the shadows, and lying by omission isn't really that, is it?

And you can't really just "move this into legit poly territory" by yourself - it seems pretty obvious that a poly arrangement won't happen unless you, hubs, L, and his partner all sit down, in each dyad and together, work it out, and agree to it. Honestly, that could take months or even years for all four of you to get to that point, if ever. Are you going to wait around for that to happen before acting with total honesty? Somehow you are still stuck in fantasy-land, it seems.

[LovingRadiance]

Let me ask the question a different way.
(becuase I had all those same arguments with myself when I cheated and I know the ultimate outcome)

Is your relationship with your husband so meaningless to you-that you are willing to forsake the foundation upon which it is built-in order to protect L?


I say it that way for a reason.
Relationships are built upon trust. EVEN IF HE DOES NOT KNOW IT-you broke that trust. The fact that he doesn't know it, doesn't change the reality of it. There IS a huge crack in the foundation of your relationship now-which means-it's more susceptible to failure.

You can leave it (I did-for years-not pretty) and you may get away with it for a time. But, eventually, the consequences will show.

The problem with that choice is-that each day you allow it to remain hidden-will be another level of resentment built when the truth comes out. So, what may be somewhat easily forgivable now-could end up being too much to overcome later.

As for L-
I do understand some of what you are saying. In our case, my lover had helped ME raise my oldest child and was already close to the middle child (youngest wasn't born yet). My husband DID get violent and LITERALLY tried to kill him the first time.
Coming clean 7 years later, that the affair had continued-risked my lovers LIFE and risked all three children losing him in their lives (the youngest was born by then). The youngest is his BIOLOGICAL child (this was not a secret or part of the affair).
So the risk was HUGE HUGE HUGE.

It did mean putting a lot of responsibility on my husbands shoulders-to make a choice to do the right thing for the kids-and not the right thing for HIMSELF. Which wasn't fair-but it was a consequence of my choice to lie (by having the affair in the first place). I had ALREADY chosen to NOT put the kids welfare first BY HAVING AN AFFAIR-regardless of how discreet.

My husband chose to put the kids first.
Then he changed his mind some... I don't know-100 times? Over a 2.5 year period.
But, in the end, love won out.

We succeeded in putting the past behind us and building a family together (boyfriend included) because ALL THREE OF US took the high road. There were many months of discomfort and torment for my lover and I. The sheer terror of what trigger might send DH through the roof and result in someone being dead. The wondering what was going to happen next or if we could get through it. The months of not touching, not talking, seeing each other every day, day in and day out-but literally not speaking or touching was hell.
But-we did it because those were the steps we needed to take to re-earn trust and prove ourselves changed from the liars we were before.

I used to say that if someone cheated-they should take it to their grave, because confessing was selfish.

The reality is-cheating is selfish. Once you've done it-you already chose to be selfish.

If you found out today that you had HIV/AIDS, would you tell your husband?

WOULD HE WANT YOU TO TELL HIM?

It's no different. You owe it to him to be honest and to give him the respect, honor and privilege he's earned as your husband-to decide how he wants to handle the information.

[CielDuMatin]

So many good posts in this thread already, and so much good advice.

Your primary goal has to be to do the right thing for yourself. Whatever happens to your other relationships you have to live with yourself. Do you see yourself as an honest and ethical person? Does it bother you when you don't live up to that? If the answers to both of these are "yes" then you need to do what is necessary to be that person again, no matter the consequences. We are all human, we all make mistakes. The key is to recognise them, own them, and make amends for slip-ups and put things in place to make sure that this doesn't happen again.

Assuming that this is important to you, the next important thing in your life is the relationship with someone with whom you made some very solemn promises - your husband. Without acting in a trustworthy way towards him you are putting your promises (and therefore your marriage) in some severe jeopardy. Take care of that next. Deal with whatever consequences are going to come from this, knowing that at least you owned your stuff and lived by your own code of ethics.

Then you can start thinking more about the poly thing. Talk with your husband about it - do some discussions about what he does, and doesn't want to know about. Don't do it in the context of a specific third person, but as an abstract. See if the two of you can come to an agreement about boundaries. If you can, then you are free to explore things in ways where you know that you are living up to your revised wedding vows, and are behaving ethically towards your current relationships.

L's issue with his partner are for him to deal with - you didn't take advantage of him while he was incapacitated - this has been building for a while - he has to own his stuff. As a courtesy you can let him know that you will be telling your husband about what happened - maybe the two of them can have a private talk about it once you have cleared things up between you and your hubby.

But to me that is all future - you have to make sure that the things that are your priorities are straight.

make sense?

[MusicalRose]

I will agree with most of the other posters in this topic and say that you definitely need to come clean with your husband. If he seemed at least comfortable with the idea of you having feelings for another person, then a kiss or two probably (although you can never be sure) will not make him fly off the handle. You can probably discuss with him the reasons for keeping it secret from L's wife and see if he is willing to work with you so that L doesn't lose his children or cause a lot of drama for all of you in the community.

But you are poisoning your marriage by continuing to keep this a secret from him. With things like this, the earlier you come clean, the better. There is no benefit to be had from waiting it out, especially as every moment that passes leaves more chance for it to come out on its own and double your husband's hurt when he finds out that not only did you cheat, but you decided to lie to him about it for however long as well.

[Jayehare]

Well ... it seems pretty unanimous, doesn't it? Who am I to argue with all of you!

I guess I felt like they were relatively small slip ups, but if I'm honest with myself, the feelings behind them aren't small at all, and do need to be brought into the open.

I suppose that it is time to test if I'm correct in feeling that my husband won't over-react to this news. Although I can't ask him to keep our secret, I do hope that he does for L's family's sake ....

Funnily enough, I can imagine him and L having a chat about all this. I hope I'm right.

I do consider myself an ethical person, and the in-congruence between what I've done and what I've said has been bothering me somewhat. I guess there's only one choice ....

R is off fishing today, and I'm going to dinner with L's partner tonight. L is off camping. This is going to get interesting...

[CielDuMatin]

I guess I felt like they were relatively small slip ups, but if I'm honest with myself, the feelings behind them aren't small at all, and do need to be brought into the open.This is how I kept myself from telling the truth years ago... and then a good friend of mine said that if they really are small, there should be no problem talking about them, right? The fact that I wasn't meant they weren't really small at all, in my mind... :)

[LovingRadiance]

Like Ciel, I too used thise same excuses. One thing poly will drive you to, is a deeper understanding of the truth, the real truth. Not the partial truth we have been taught to tolerate.

[Jayehare]

You guys are great ... But I'm still a but terrified of the sense that I'm opening Pandora's box. I suppose we could argue that I opened it months ago ... But it still seems a bit more immediate now.

So, I need a little time. We have houseguests for another three days, and I do want to give L the heads up.

But since I've thought about coming clean, the truth of my duplicity is so much more present, I was out with L's partner tonight, and I so wanted to somehow let her know that I lcare so much for her and never wanted to hurt her ... And that I hope some day she'll forgive me ... If she will, there's hope...

I'll keep you posted. The truth, in this smalllllll town is about to come out!

[dingedheart]

I don't know how good a friends the 2 guys are but have factored in the betrayal element within that relationship.

This could be a bump in a marriage that ends up having a great out come. His excitement at the thought of you being with another man could the tip of an adventure for you both. However not wanting to know and being excited seems opposite. But maybe he's been thinking/ wanting to open up for yrs this will be a great outcome for you both.


If he does struggle with the news perhaps some counseling to allow him a person to talk to without risking the whole town.

Invite him here as well


Good luck D

[JaneQSmythe]

I don't really have much of anything to add to the excellent advice that you have already been given in this thread.

I do empathize with you as two years ago I found myself in almost exactly the same situation. I was cheating on my husband with his best friend - although no actual sex was involved. I had convinced myself that MrS wanted a DADT policy and was convincing enough that Dude almost believed me (even if he didn't agree - he was always a proponent of full disclosure).

You can read about my experience in my blog here (the "Journey" link in my sig). (The JACKASS part starts around message 21 with the preamble in message 19). Although I haven't finished the story there I can tell you that it does, so far, have a happy ending. MrS, Dude, and I have been living as a cohabitating Vee for 17 months now - and things are going well (which, at one point, didn't seem like even a remote possibility - I am, however, the LUCKIEST girl on the planet...)

Good Luck.

Jane("Trying-to-never-be-a-jackass-again")Q

[Jayehare]

Backslide ....

Had a long conversation with L yesterday, in person, and told him I needed to come clean with R. He was scared, but not angry, supportive even. Although, the first thing he said was that there was a 95% chance him and his partner would break up as a result. I did, however, almost get him to a point of understanding that my husband would likely not say anything, so his choice to speak up to his partner would still be his.

Then I got a panicked email this morning, and we had another long conversation. I so wanted to stay firm in my position, but I also don't want him to lose everything, and ... he would. I know coming clean is still the right thing to do, it's still what I want to do for me personally - but as they say, there's the right thing to do, and then there's what I'm going to do.

I'm going to protect L. And our community of friends, everything we've built here.

For now.

I know it will likely all come out at one point, and it will be worse. I tried to convince L of that, but he feels like he needs to risk that right now. By the end of the conversation he was looking to going to see a counsellor to figure out how he can get him and his relationship to a stronger point. I strongly encouraged that.

I know I'm selling myself short, and I know this isn't what I want to do. I know I'm protecting him because I still have feelings for him, and it protects a lot for me too. He knows he's asking me to compromise my very sense of self, but my whole family isn't on the line. When I think of his daughter, and what this would do to her, it just doesn't seem right or fair.

Can I live with this? Right now, yes, I feel like I can. Will I feel this way tomorrow? Probably not. But is coming clean about my own sense of integrity, or is about still wanting L and wanting to force the issue? Is it about being truthful, or seeing how my husband reacts to the reality of me being with someone else, knowledge he said he didn't want to know. Is it worth repairing this crack in the foundation of my otherwise strong relationship, when it would demolish L's whole house and take half the community with it?

I can't justify not coming clean. I know it's wrong, I know that. And one day I will come clean, and hope that my husband understands that I didn't sooner only because it would have destroyed L's family. My only solace is L's promise that he's going to work to make his relationship better and begin to work on himself too. I hope he comes to a point where he can see that there is no other way to restore honesty and trust in a relationship than to be honest and prove yourself trustworthy. Then we can both face the music, without me feeling like the asshole that forced the issue for him when he wasn't able to cope and when he was pretty much guaranteed to lose it all.

I know ....

[Jayehare]

You can read about my experience in my blog here (the "Journey" link in my sig). (The JACKASS part starts around message 21 with the preamble in message 19).

Thanks Jane, I'm going to read your story, and hopefully learn from it ...

[LovingRadiance]

feel free to read through ours as well-its linked in my signature-and some is on here as well in the blogs page.

[dingedheart]

There's a couple of confusing statements. He's excited by the thought of you being with other men but doesn't want to know. You're fairly sure that upon learning of this he will ....a. understand and b. will exercise discretion and keep this with in the three of you.

So with that being the case what's the risk for him ( bf) if you decide to do whats right for your marriage?

In effect if this continues and comes out down the road your response to your husband will be ......I wanted to come clean sooner but ( bf ) relationship ...his life is more important then ours. That's the possible backlash. You might want to get the "not wanting to know " more rigidly nailed down....and get that on the record. Because making sure worst case scenario's don't happen in your bf life might have really bad consequences in your own marriage.

I see this type of logical having a compounding effect.

[Jayehare]

In effect if this continues and comes out down the road your response to your husband will be ......I wanted to come clean sooner but ( bf ) relationship ...his life is more important then ours. That's the possible backlash. You might want to get the "not wanting to know " more rigidly nailed down....and get that on the record.

I've completely changed my tact. I am going to tell my husband everything, because you are absolutely right - I can't pretend that our relationship is the most important if I haven't put everything into it, and am, instead, protecting a relationship with L. So, disclosure is imminent. I'm delaying for two reasons - 1) we had to put down our 12 year old family dog yesterday, so still feel a little raw, and 2) due to trying to take the pill continuously I've had a low grade period for WEEKS now - I've stopped the pill so I can get it done and be intimate with my husband. I don't think it's fair to bring up heavy relationship talks when we haven't 'enjoyed' each other in soooo long ;)

[dingedheart]

Really sorry for your loss :( it sucks .....I think my dad cried at the loss of his dog and not at my grandmother's passing so I get the depths these furry friends can have on us.


I'm not questioning your reasons but I hope this doesn't get looked at as a tactic in softening difficult news or worse.

After the fact it could be twisted into pity fuck, softening tactic, basic manipulation, cheap attempt to reassure sexual desire, etc, ...something you didn't intend. Is it possible this could send the wrong message ?

[Jayehare]

After the fact it could be twisted into pity fuck, softening tactic, basic manipulation, cheap attempt to reassure sexual desire, etc, ...something you didn't intend. Is it possible this could send the wrong message ?

Good point ... not something I intended at all. We just tend to bicker a bit more when we aren't getting it on with enough frequency, and feel more together and strong when we are expressing ourselves in that way. But maybe I'm just delaying for the sake of delaying ... there never really is a 'good time' is there?

I just need to get my head a bit more clear. I'm exhausted, emotionally and physically, after yesterday. But one good night sleep could change that. I just really want to get this done, move forward recognizing the change together.

An old friend called yesterday after he heard about our dog. I was so happy to hear his voice. He's been someone I've 'loved' forever (we went to preschool together), and though we've never been together physically (we haven't lived in the same city since high school), the depth of our relationship is much more than friends. Speaking to him, I realized that I've been having a (non-physical) secondary relationship for years and years. I do have the capacity to love more than one, possibly three. I feel so rich!

[Jayehare]

I did it! I broached the subject by saying that when we first talked about open relationships, R said he 'wouldn't want to know'. I said that I wondered if that was really true since ... there was something to know. He said, "what have you done?" with amused curiosity. I took a deep breath, and told him L and I had kissed a fooled around a couple of times. His immediate reaction was - impressed. Then I got into the timeline, and he wasn't happy that he'd been left out of the loop for so long, felt a bit like he'd been played. I explained that it was frightening and bizarre when it happened, and I wasn't sure what it all meant. Then I said that I began to look into open relationships and poly relationships and realized that I do have the capacity to have strong feelings about more than one person. I brought up other friend (G), and I continually reiterated that none of these other relationships or feelings ever took away from how I feel about R. I said that my experience with L charged me and thus charged us, and that it was good. Throughout it all I defended what I feel, what I did, and apologized profusely for not being honest about it from the beginning. That was my only mistake. He brought up L's partner not knowing, and that it bothered him. I agreed, but we both agreed that it wasn't our place to dictate what they do in their relationship. He said that since its over, and isn't going to happen again (unless somehow L's partner is okay with it), then it's up to L if he wants to bury that secret to protect his weaker relationship. He did say that if L's partner asked him directly, he wouldn't lie. I don't think that I would either.

And then we had the most phenomenal sex ever.

We'll see how things go over the next few days. I know he's upset, despite being so amazing about it all. But he doesn't see it as a huge deal, and he doesn't see it as threatening.

So I feel so much better - and so lucky. I'm glad my assumptions about how my partner would react were correct. I know there will still be some work to do to rebuild trust, but I feel so much lighter now than I have in so long. I also feel like, were another L to come along, we'd have a great shot at a true open relationship. And that's liberating...

Now to tell L that the cat's out of the bag. I think he'll be okay, since it's still up to him whether he discloses to his partner or not. Part of me truly hopes that he does. For them. I feel so secure and happy right now ... all this angst, this lying by omission, and I could have been truthful from the beginning...

[nycindie]

Good for you. Lying and hiding stuff does create such stress. I am sure the relief you feel is almost palpable.

[AnnabelMore]

Congrats!!

[Jayehare]

Good for you. Lying and hiding stuff does create such stress. I am sure the relief you feel is almost palpable.

It's amazing, I can't believe I ever thought that it would be better to keep this hidden. Yes, the stress of lying is far more than I thought, but also coming clean really validated everything that I was feeling. I didn't think that I should be ashamed of how I felt, or feel, but now I have no doubt in my mind.

I also want to really thank everyone on this forum who responded to me. I needed some of my blind spots pointed out, and everyone did that here in a really supportive way. I hope that my adventures into poly territory continue, so that I can continue to be a part of this community. I'm not sure if you all realize what a great service you are doing for people out there who are struggling with relationships that don't fit the 'norm'.

Thank you, thank you.

[LovingRadiance]

GOOD JOB! Isn't that an amazing feeling, being able to be honest with your beloved?
I know it's meant SO MUCH to me and done so much FOR me since I came clean. :)

I'm proud of you (even though I don't know you) for taking that chance-it's a good feeling knowing that someone else has managed to break free of the delusion that the lying/secrets is a happier/safer place.

I'm glad your husband came through with a listening ear. It's awesome that you two are bonding over this. Learning from our mistakes is a critical component of self-improvement. ;)

[CielDuMatin]

Congratulations! Just taking that step can be very scary, but whatever the outcome, it is freeing, knowing that you can live by a set of ethics that you can be proud of. There are so many folks that are in denial of this, and live lives of lying, not happy, but thinking that there is no alternative.

I am just extremely happy that the outcome was so positive for you. I thought it was really interesting that the only problem your husband had was that you had waited so long - I think that is a good lesson to learn too - delaying talking about it, often justifying it with "I'm waiting for the right time" actually is counter-productive in the long run, and upsets the partner even more.

Thank you for coming back and updating us on this.

[Jayehare]

Well, it was wonderful ... for a moment ... to have my husband on board and everything feeling good and above board. But L's partner still didn't know, and the guilt of that was eating me up. I knew that she needed to know too, but the fall out was/is so terrifying. I spoke with L and convinced him that if he loved her and cared about his relationship, he would tell her.

And so he did.

I haven't heard a thing from L about what happened, but I tried to reach his partner and let her know that I didn't want to avoid this. She hung up on me. Too soon. I know that she is entrenched in thinking about this in terms of betrayal, and the lying was betrayal. But will I ever be able to get her to understand that motivations behind what happened were not so horrible? That we can choose to move forward from this in a different way?

How do I balance defending what I believe about the true nature of relationships, and being respectful of the fact that she thinks I've back stabbed her and betrayed her in the worst way possible? I feel such shame because of the order in which things happened (we should have talked about it first, or at least much much sooner), but I don't feel shame about how I feel.

And this isn't even out in the court of small town public opinion ...yet.

I feel better that she knows, my eye was twitching out of huge amounts of stress and it's not anymore. But I guess I was a bit naive, and didn't really expect this crushing sense of shame, I thought I might have a leg to stand on, but when I try and explain things, it sounds too much like a re-do of the 60's hippy commune philosophy.

And I worry about hurting her even more by even trying to justify this ...

[Icewraithonyx]

And I worry about hurting her even more by even trying to justify this ...

Then please...don't try. Even if she wasn't justified in viewing this as a betrayal (which I think she is), she's in NO state to try to see your view of things. While I don't believe you intended to cause pain, I think it's hard to deny that's exactly what happened. At the very least, I think you have to acknowledge that things were "introduced badly".

Honestly, I would give her time and space. While you're doing that, you might want to look into some resources about healing things after cheating. Wife and I found the book "After the Affair" by Janis Spring rather helpful.

Good luck, I really do hope that she's able to heal from this.

[opalescent]

I haven't heard a thing from L about what happened, but I tried to reach his partner and let her know that I didn't want to avoid this. She hung up on me. Too soon. I know that she is entrenched in thinking about this in terms of betrayal, and the lying was betrayal. But will I ever be able to get her to understand that motivations behind what happened were not so horrible? That we can choose to move forward from this in a different way?

It is too soon. You will have to be patient and wait for her to reach out to you. And she may never do so. Bluntly your motivations are irrelevant right now. It was a betrayal by you and her husband. You did not intend to hurt anyone. But that does not remove the hurt.

She may never come around to your way of thinking. You have no control over that. All you can do is be available to talk if she decides to do so and continue to work on your relationship with your husband. It was a good thing you decided to be open and honest with your husband. And fortunately that has gone well so far. Your former lover is now trying to do the same with his wife. And there is nothing you can do to help him, or her, with that. You will have to live with the shame and the guilt for a while. She cannot take that shame and guilt away from you. She cannot ease your pain right now. That is not her job or her concern. She may forgive you in time. I hope so. The only practical thing you can do now is learn from the shame and the guilt - which you are doing.

[Jayehare]

Your former lover is now trying to do the same with his wife. And there is nothing you can do to help him, or her, with that. You will have to live with the shame and the guilt for a while. She cannot take that shame and guilt away from you. She cannot ease your pain right now. That is not her job or her concern. She may forgive you in time. I hope so. The only practical thing you can do now is learn from the shame and the guilt - which you are doing.

What a learning experience this has been. I know that she can't ease how I feel right now, and that she may never, and she certainly doesn't have to. I'm going to have to come to peace with that on my own terms. I've never felt so wrong before, I've never been the agent of such pain.

What a humbling experience - life altering, mind changing. My husband is still being very supportive, and I am so thankful for that. It's amazing how two people faced with the same incident can react so differently.. But that's the meaning we make out of our lives ... and it's different for everyone.

So what about the rest of our friends - when talking to them, surely I can try and explain what happened - not in the hopes of being excused for it, but in the hopes that they understand? Is there an easy way to explain the poly mindset to those conditioned to monogamy? Or will that still look bad in the face of the pain that I've caused?

[JaneQSmythe]

So what about the rest of our friends - when talking to them, surely I can try and explain what happened - not in the hopes of being excused for it, but in the hopes that they understand? Is there an easy way to explain the poly mindset to those conditioned to monogamy? Or will that still look bad in the face of the pain that I've caused?

To be blunt - it will still look bad.

I screwed up royally when I first got involved with Dude. I hurt my beloved husband - he hurt BAD. (You can read about it in my "Journey" blog here - the /jackassery/ section)

AFTER the dark times (because when my husband is upset with me there are very few people that I can stand to even talk to, let alone share with) I did speak to my very closest friends about what had happened and how miserable I felt having caused him so much pain. BECAUSE they were my very closest friends I knew that they could listen to me, see that I had acted badly, and still love and support ME while never, for one minute, "letting me off the hook" for the mistakes I had made.

Our other, regular friends? AFTER everything was reconciled and Dude was firmly established with us we began to gently talk about (around really) the concept of polyamory - which really surprised none of them, although some of them had questions, they've know us a long time :).

JaneQ

[Jayehare]

To be blunt - it will still look bad.
Our other, regular friends? AFTER everything was reconciled and Dude was firmly established with us we began to gently talk about (around really) the concept of polyamory - which really surprised none of them, although some of them had questions, they've know us a long time :).

JaneQ

So I finally talked to L (recognizing we don't get to talk anymore), he called me at work. His tone was .... upset, I told you so (that's she wouldn't understand and would kick him out), and ... resigned. He said something about how it confirmed his suspicions that she was just waiting for a reason to break up ... which is something he's said about himself as well. Just neither of them wanted it to be their fault. He still wants to try, and I still want him to succeed, but reconciliation will be a long path, and it won't involve me at all.

Then after work I stopped to pick up the mail and our mutual friend J was there, who he's known his whole life and has confided in since this happened. She hugged me. I almost cried. So I guess it comes to this ... I tell people whatever they are ready to hear. I suspect that more people than I would like will know about this, and some will be mad, some will be accepting. Some I can attempt to explain, and some (particularly L's partner) I'll just have to take their emotions, validate them, and leave it at that ...

Something happens, we attach meaning, and then we feel what we feel. For everyone that's different. The challenge is to read that ... correctly.