Re-start after potential metamour talks smack...

[LovingRadiance]

Suggestions?

HISTORY:
My SO met a girl. Boundaries were broken (thats been addressed). She got pissy when he stepped back to address the broken boundaries (she didn't know that is what he was doing).

She talked smack about me, unaware I would hear/see it.

He and I address the issues in our dynamic including boundary breaking.

He meets with her to explain what happened, his part in it, her part in it etc.

She wants to be friends with him and **it sounds like they want to look at possibly more down the road but that hasn't been specifically stated.

They continue talking via text and she says maybe she needs to try to be friends with me then.

MY CURRENT QUESTION:

I'm not inclined to open myself up to people who talk crap about me. When I say talk crap, I do mean UNTRUE stuff. Because even if its bad, if its true what they say, I got NO complaint.

On the other hand, I know that she thought it was true and her feelings were hurt because my SO made some bad choices regarding boundaries.

Any thoughts or suggestions for going about this? (her and I)

My gut response is that the stuff said needs to be cleared up before we can begin building any sort of trust and/or friendship.
But, I'm unsure if thats just me being defensive and bitchy.

[BoringGuy]

Maybe you should let her try. You can reject her any time.

[Jade]

I'm curious why he doesn't do the initial fix, and you do the follow up confirmation. It sounds like something he did gave her a false impression of you, and it's his responsibility to take corrective action. Why didn't she know that he was stepping back to address the broken boundary?

[LovingRadiance]

Oh, I have no intention of going chasing after her. :)

I do suspect I will be contacted by her soon though..

I'm unsure how I want to proceed.

It's easy enough for me to decide if I deduct the whole poly-dynamic from the equation-because when it comes to personal friendships-I don't mince words. I'm very... perfunctory.
I would simply look them in the eye and say, "you said xyz, it's bullshit and it pissed me off."
Then go from there.
If no apology were forth coming-no friendship would be either.



On the other end of that-thought though-is that I have noticed that there are some things about my... not poly way of dealing with things that just DO NOT function in my poly world. ;)

So-I figured-what the hell-I'll ask and see what the rest of ya'll think. ;)

[LovingRadiance]

He did.

That's why she is feeling like she needs to come back to me and try to build a friendship.

He went to her and addressed what he did wrong (which included breaking boundaries, not telling her the boundaries and using her as the sounding board and venting ear while we were struggling through some issues this winter-but NOT using her as a sounding board for any of the good stuff).

At any rate, he did do his part.
He leaves town in the morning for a week-and yesterday she up and decided she might ought to work on building a friendship with me.
Which-I suspect will result in her contacting me while he's gone.

This all happened pre-March.
He addressed things with her over phone and text through June and July then they met for coffee and had a pow wow over the minute details, his apology etc in August.

The issues that created the problems have been dealt with and I have no concerns with that. Including him enlightening her not only to what he didn't say before, but also to what she couldn't know about regarding him and I, AND what our current boundaries are and how that pertains to her (some of them don't pertain to her at all).

[GalaGirl]

My gut response is that the stuff said needs to be cleared up before we can begin building any sort of trust and/or friendship.
But, I'm unsure if thats just me being defensive and bitchy.

If it were me? If she contacted me to try to work on the (me <--> her) tier of the polymath?

I'd want that cleared up first too.

We teach others how to be treated. I'd be willing to forgive it since this is starting out and she may not have been in the full picture yet or up to full speed and I can understand feeling hurt and acting out.

But I would lay out how it works in my universe. (http://www.polyamory.com/forum/member.php?u=49794) I would also lay out how I want to be treated as a meta from this point forward. Do NOT assume things about me. Come to me direct. You have the right to clear communication. That includes not putting Shared Honey in the middle. Eliminate the middle man.

I would invite her to add any points to that Jedi contract she feels she needs or feels is missing. I'd be willing to discuss with her and Shared Honey if addendums are needed. If it's a banner she can fly under, great. We all agree this is the banner we fly under, new polyship takes flight.

There. Done. We do not have to be best friends, or even friends. We do have to be polite, cordial, respectful since we share a Honey and there's gonna be conversations about health screenings, calendars, and whatnot eventually. Let's play like grown ups here.

GG

[LovingRadiance]

That is pretty much how I feel about it GG. Our boundaries regarding friends is pretty simple and they have gone over it. Her one issue is that to her kissing (tongue to tongue) of 'just a friend' is acceptable, whereas its not for us. But, as I understand it, she has agreed to our boundaries as such.

The 'dating' aspect is currently 'on hold' because she has an issue with the fact that I have herpes. She has expressed wanting to date-but is 't ok with taking the risk (perfectly reasonable) and he isn't willing to limit himself to using condoms with me (it is a boundary that we use them with others ourside of our current V).
But, since the dating aspect is currently not on the table, I'm not concerned with laying out the option for her to add to the boundaries. IF that comes to the table again, there is room for negotiation. Our agreement is that we will readdress the boundaries at 3 month increments. So, march, june, sept, dec. if there is a potential partner they are welcome to join in the discussion. Shrug.

[GalaGirl]

Sounds like you are being real about it then.

Galagirl

[LovingRadiance]

Thanks GG. I admit to having taken much time to read your posts and consider them in terms of my own thoughts and actions. ;)

I think I will take time to write out my "how I want to be treated as a metamour" thoughts this weekend. ;)

[GalaGirl]

I think I will take time to write out my "how I want to be treated as a metamour" thoughts this weekend.

Def share it when you do! I'd love to see other people's examples. I keep precontemplating it. In my world, I never had to deal with it direct as a dating single. Not at all yet as a dating married -- we haven't been dating as marrieds. So whole other arena.

In the old thing -- BF1 (now DH) never exercised his option to see others even though we were not exclusive. So his "house next door" always stayed vacant. BF2 was LDR, so I never had to see or meet or deal in his Others directly either. I only heard about them second hand from him when he expressed "Argh!" to me to vent. But it had no direct correlation to my life, really.

So now that we take our sweet time discussing Opening Up someday when we're not active parents maybe -- I have to think about that Meta thing being territory that needs covering. This time it could play out different, so no point in being all ostrich about it.

Being a poly single dating is so different than being a poly married dating. Pace is waaaaay slower when you tend 8 buckets rather than 4. Gotta keep to minimal sloshing so everyone's mental, emotional, physical, and spiritual healths aren't shaken up TOO horrible. Who is in it for horrible?! LOL. ;)

GG

[WhatHappened]

My feeling is it never hurts to give second chances especially when she had reason to believe what she was saying was true. If he's owned up to her part, and it sounds like she's trying to meet you halfway and perhaps own up to her part...which can be difficult when you realize you spoke wrongly even though you truly believed it...then it seems like a good idea to try. If it doesn't work, at least you gave it a fair shot.

[turtleHeart]

As already addressed to a degree, one plus I see to letting her try making friends with you is that communication on what's ok and where things are going would have a better chance of being clear. She could hear directly from you how things are going and vise versa. The current problem seems to have stemmed from poor communication, and this could help that.

[CielDuMatin]

LR, you asked for my comments on this, so before I log off and take a break from this place for while in order to not rip certain people's heads off, I will answer.

Smack talk about anyone behind their back is problematic, and all too common in today's society. If someone has something to say, they need to say it to my face, at least. I don't care whether it's true or not - the same rule applies. If it's untrue, I then have the chance of correcting their misperception. The problematic part is that if they are doing that about another, then what are they saying about you to others. It doesn't say a lot for the person's trustworthiness to be doing this. It is part of the concept of self-mastery that I believe is really important (along with controlling temper and not knee-jerk reacting to situations). That is her problem, and something that you may be able to educate her on, if you ever get the chance.

The biggest issue, though, is how your partner managed this. If he hadn't managed this badly, none of this would have happened. I am not just talking about breaking boundaries, it's that she had no clue what was going on, and probably assumed the worst.

Taking your issues and discussing them with someone who is not involved is problematic for me too, especially if it is someone that may turn out to be part of a lasting relationship or friendship. He did you no favours by doing this. I will never go bitching to another about an issue that I am having with one of my partners - that is *our* business.

All of this kind of puts you on the back foot with this.

I see nothing wrong with extending a hand of acquaintance with this person, in order to get to know her and find out what her true values are. I would be quite cautious. Is this person poly? If you mentioned that I missed it. If not, you obviously have a lot of work to do.

So I guess my advice would be to try it out, and see if you can get a fresh start with her and do a bit of a reset.

Hope this helps.

[Raiff]

I suggest sitting down and talking to her. Like any situation, just forget about him and everything external to what YOU TWO have going on. Treat her like any potential new friend, find out why she did what she did, and just start trying to build a friendship.

If it doesn't look viable, just stop talking to her.

[LovingRadiance]

Ciel-yes she is poly and, I happen to be struggling with exactly the issues you stated. I recognise the cause as being definitively his, but her behavior is.... Not the type I look for in friends.

[LovingRadiance]

Raiff-sound advice if I had any real personal interest in befriending her. But, I do not. If this were a 'not pertaining to him' scenario-I would never sit down to talk to her. That opportunity of potential interest in getting to know someone goes right out the window with trash talking.
The friendships I maintain tend to be with people I've been friends with 20+years. Primarily because my interest in bothering to get to know someone, if it means dealing with unnecessary drama, dropped to nothing about 12 years ago.
So, in this case, her behavior the first few times we met, (before the trash talking and drama) was so... Hyper and needy whilst proclaiming to be very independent, that I was turned off of even hearing her voice. Who she is, has a lot in common with who I was 20 years ago. But, I have changed A LOT in those years.
I am much more secure about who I am, awAre of what I need and want, less outgoing, less 'wild', more prone to sitting at home playing cards or scrabble with my kids, uninterested in 'proving myself' in social activities or sports.
So, while I can grant her a smile of familiarity because I remember when I felt the competitive need to run faster, play harder and generally be the best at everything, and the underlying insecurity that drove me to be boastful and act over confident- I am no longer that way AND no longer interested in participating in the high maintenance relationships that go with that.

Thus, being poly, I feel I may owe it to my SO and her, to give her a chance again-because it was his fault things went the course they went AND he's done a shitload of self-work to fix his shit, claim it, correct it and clean up the fallout from it ..... I have no personal interest in developing a relationship with this young lady or her circle of friends.
Thus my quandry.
I am not prone to maintaining acquaintance relationships. I have deep, long lasting friendships, and two lovers. But, people who I am not interested in getting close to, I just don't socialize with.
But, in this case, I feel a responsibility to make an effort to develop a... Friendly acquaintance with her, for my SO and her sake. I'm not really sure how to do that. The 'rules of engagement' that I use in life, don't include that.

For people I consider strangers, I have 'polite'. But, I don't have 'waste my time and energy engaging this person I have already established I am uninterested in having as a close personal friend' rules. Because-I don't do that.

Not trying to sound crass, but I'm not hard up for friends and I already lack the time to spend the amount of time I would like with the ones I have. So adding more to my list isn't a high priority. Furthermore, if I am going to add any to my list, I'm not likely to ever choose ones that are dramatic, tempermental, needy, high maintenance-HEADACHES for me.


Short version, I wouldn't dream of looking to be friends with her.

[Emm]

Do you need to be friends or just friendly? You may have different expectations, but I don't need to be BFFs for a metamour relationship to work.

[Anneintherain]

Thus, being poly, I feel I may owe it to my SO and her, to give her a chance again-because it was his fault things went the course they went AND he's done a shitload of self-work to fix his shit, claim it, correct it and clean up the fallout from it ..... I have no personal interest in developing a relationship with this young lady or her circle of friends.
Thus my quandry.
I am not prone to maintaining acquaintance relationships. I have deep, long lasting friendships, and two lovers. But, people who I am not interested in getting close to, I just don't socialize with.
But, in this case, I feel a responsibility to make an effort to develop a... Friendly acquaintance with her, for my SO and her sake. I'm not really sure how to do that. The 'rules of engagement' that I use in life, don't include that.


I wonder if he hadn't messed up, and it was just somebody he wanted to date that you didn't want to know, would you be making as much effort to extend an olive branch and get to know them?

If you don't like acquaintance relationships (and I am not fond of them at all myself) but are pretty sure she wont _ever_ be a close friend, then what comes from this attempt at friendly? Is it just to make him and her feel better, to let her realize she's an idiot for being such a bitch, or is it to take the high ground? (Not sure I'd take the high mature ground based on what you said, so good for you! I figure somebody who talks shit once to anybody but their best friends in private, may be likely to repeat the same behavior)

I have no advice, except, you don't owe her (or your SO) any more than you would if she was just a non smack talking person who wanted to be involved with your partner, that you didn't really want to have anything to do with because of personality differences.

[LovingRadiance]

No, if he hadn't screwed up-at this point I would not be making an effort. But, his behavior left her feeling unwelcome by me.

The purpose of this effort would be so that she could know that it is ok with ME if he invites her to socialize when we have a BBQ for exAmple, or to participate in activities I may or may not wander into.

Currently she doesn't feel she can accept the invite. Rightfully so. I don't need or want friendship for that to happen- i just need a lack of conflict and respect for me in the form of not talking crap, not invading my personal space (bedroom) and not undermining my authority with my kids.

However, the people I invite are all clise friends to me-she feels weird because I don't treat her the same. I'm not a hostess type. I'm a 'kitchens there' type. So I flutter through my friends talking and enjoying myself. They are all friends too. So they do the same thing. No one needing me to hold their hand through the socializing part of being here. She doesn't know the. (yes I make introductions) and senses that she is an outsider. Which, she is.

For her sake and SO I feel compelled to at least address the previous conflict, put it to rest, outline for her what she can/can't expect from me and what I expect from her (respect and manage her own shit via SO, not me, I'm not her hostess or buddy), and address that yes she is welcome to accept invites from him without concern regarding me 'not approving' and if she has a question or concern regarding me-bring it to me, not ramble to others hoping for a solution.


I expect this is goig to be uncomfortable for both of them actually. Because they 'make friends' quickly. Meet, greet and sudden bff. I do not. She has a tendency to want to educate me on how to change. I find it highly annoying. My attitude is , 'go make friends at light speed. I will be here relaxing, homework done and enjoying a good book when you return'.
I feel pressured to be her new bff-because 'it would be so nice for the families to hang out together'.
My mind replies-'i dont know you well enough to consider you a friend and what does that have to do with beig able to hang out?'

I watch people and over time learn their predictable behaviors. Eventually, that may result in feeling secure and safe in sharing my internal
Mental workings and developing friendship. But Im slow.

I knew DH 10 yrs before we started dating. Altogether we have 24 yrs.
Bf-20 yrs all together.
4friends-25 yrs
2-23 yrs
2-18 yrs and the wife of one of those has become a dear friend, know. Her 15 yrs.

Thats my core social group. There are people ar the college. Known theem almost 2 yrs, we r in the same lgbt club. One is becoming a friend. He's come by to visit, we've gone to his bday celebrations, i have never gone to his home. I have met his family.

Shrug. Im just not social the way this young lady is any more. And while dh isnt really social, when he's attrActed he tends to go from introductions to sex in less than a month. Whereas I would not consider sex until I have developed a solid friendship which can take 2-5 years.

Not a big deal-as long as they respect that the 'closeness and conne tion' they feel, is theirs, not mine and does not immediately result in the privileges of deep friendship WITH ME that they have with one another.

[Glitter]

It sounds like she has unreasonable expectations of you. If you are not one to buddy-buddy with every metamour, nor be the BFF/Hostess type, then don't be. You can be courteous without being her friend. If she can't handle who you are, that's her issue to deal with, not yours. Don't twist yourself into knots trying to be something you aren't. Just be yourself, and go with what your gut tells you.

[LovingRadiance]

Glitter-yes, there were some expectations for me to do what I consider "other people's emotional work" for her. I don't intend to change.

I think it is reasonable for me to meet with her, clear up the conflict and let her know what she can expect from me (not "what will I do for her"-but what she can expect I normally behave like).

Thank you for the reminder not to let myself be challenged to do other people's self-care.

[LovingRadiance]

Sigh.
I feel like a moron.
Maca told me she felt like she couldnt talk to me because in Jan I told her to stop emailing me (after she tried to tell me she knew the 'real' him and I didnt).

So, I broke my agreement to self, and wrote her a very short note telling her she could contact me, that my feelings had been hurt and that i had expectations for how to be treated which needed relayed to her.

She didnt take it well. They had drama, which rolled into drama here and pressure for me to fix it. I flipped out and walked out.

Should have stuck by my boundary of not going to her. She's not taking any responsibility for their relationship or her and mine. Im tired of being asked to 'step up' so she can flake out.

Im so angry i just dont have words.

[BoringGuy]

She must have some fabulous redeeming qualities if your husband keeps wanting to preserve a connection with her despite all the grief and drama she packs. I'm half serious and half sarcastic when i say that.

[LovingRadiance]

I'm totally serious when I say I have been thinking the same shit. I am sure she does have some redeeming qualities. But her immaturity and inability to deal with her own responsibilities in building new relationships is infuriating to me.

The 'I want our families to be friends and hang out' repetition gets VERY OLD when combined with her avoiding me and avoiding dealing with the one thing standing in the way of that supposed desire SHE has. If she wants that, she has a really funny way of showing it.
And
Of course its all my fault because I am too intimidating. Why? Because I'm not groveling on my knees begging to fuck her?!?!? That just might be because I dont want to fuck her and her physical beauty doesn't trigger in me a desire to get to know her.
I guess when you are used to people throwing themselves at your feet, begging for your attention, it might be intimidating to reach out and get to know someone who isn't desperate for your attention.

[GalaGirl]

I don't know what to say.

It's like she wants you guys to be tighter than it is. All you owe your meta is basic polite. You cannot force fit it into friends or best friends or lover if those types of sparks are just not there for you.

Baffling. :confused:

You sound like this on friendship -- If she wants to put forth effort, yay. If not, yay.

If she comes to family shindig things it's on MACA isn't it? To tend to her needs as her SO?

Even if you were being the hostess for the whole party, you can't have her as a clingon -- your obligations are to see to ALL the guests comfort/needs. (within reason) Not just one guest.

Weird.

GG

[LovingRadiance]

Thanks GG.
I'm calming down, working through my feelings and thoughts after a nap.

I'll post what I come up with later on (along with what I came up with regarding my expectations for treatment from metamours)

[LovingRadiance]

I worked to process my feelings today-I'm not done. But, here are some of the thoughts.

In my world, if a person wants a “restart” on our relationship after they have harmed me (regardless of circumstance), the following steps are necessary:

request a restart
acknowledge the harm you did to me
make amends for the harm (depending on circumstance they may be simple or complicated)
respect the current limitation of my trust
take concrete actions to show me the situation has changed, in order to built trust
not play avoidy games
not play 3rd party communication-communicate clearly and directly to me
accept that restart comes with limited privileges due to breach of trust
Finally, accept and understand that at no point, ever, does your closeness with someone else in my life automatically extend to you the privileges I extend to people I am personally close to. You can not ever get those privileges without doing the work to get to know me personally and build a trusting relationship with me personally.

[LovingRadiance]

I expect metamours to

respect our boundaries
communicate directly to me on issues regarding me
treat my children with kindness and respect
never talk bad about myself, GG or Maca in front of our children
respect my personal space
treat me kindly
not talk negatively about me behind my back
consider the consequences of their actions upon me
consider the consequences of their actions on M & I's relationship
consider the consequences of their words upon me
consider the consequences of their words upon M & I's relationship
consider the consequences of their actions on GG
consider the consequences of their actions on our children
consider the consequences of their words on GG
consider the consequences of their words on our children
NOT discipline my children
NOT undermine my, GG or Maca's authority with our children
NOT attempt to get in the middle of any of my other relationships
NOT attempt to undermine any of my other relationships
NOT treat me or my relationships with disdain
Be understanding of the limitations on our time for social activities


*every one of these is also an expectation I have for my friends and for Maca and GG's friends.

[LovingRadiance]

Well-they are continuing to bicker back and forth via text.

He and I have agreed that its wasting my time, energy and emotional resources for him to keep me updated about it. If/when she is ready to meet (the three of us) to go over the boundaries and apologize, he will let me know.

In the meantime, I'm not interested in the ongoing ranting and "muppet" behavior.

I did tell him, that between me and him, he can make plans as he see's fit-but I'm not ok with spending time with her OR having the kids spend time with her until the above listed steps are taken. I explained that its my job to protect my boundaries-and this is my CLEAR COMMUNICATION.

Her turn.

[Glitter]

Good for you! * applauds!*

[LovingRadiance]

Thanks. :o
I'm really trying to take Galagirls example and put it to good use. :)
I've written out a lot of my own thoughts/needs and limits in my diary and shared much of it with him. He's getting a heavy dose of "wow, that's who my wife is" I think. But, its been good.

Now, it's just a matter of upholding those limits. It does help (a lot) when he's backing me up. I hope he sticks to that. It's hard when he's upset with me over my limits and the two of them gang up on me. Especially when I'm trying to hard to be clear with myself about where *I* end and where *HE* begins, and keep my boundaries and limits about me.

[Glitter]

Good for you!

That's disgusting if they gang up on you, seriously. Not nice at all. Your limits are your limits, nothing more, nothing less.

I'd being telling him to suck it up buttercup (aka deal with it, lol) :p

[LovingRadiance]

I very much felt I was being ganged up on before. He appears to have surpassed the nre stage and is being much more his normal
Self. So hopefully it wont happen again. It didnt go well the first time, i flew off the handle.

[Glitter]

Oh good, sounds much better :D

[LovingRadiance]

I figured I should update. I realized I posted in my blog thread-but not here. However, there are limits on what we're supposed to write in other people's blogs. I want everyone's authentic two cents. So I figured it was best to copy-paste it here in case anyone felt they wanted to say something but thought it might not be appropriate over there.

[LovingRadiance]

With no agreement to meet or talk with me continuing to be the circumstance,

Quote:
I think there is something wrong with me. I read your post today and my heart started pounding in my ears so loud, I thought it was going to explode. It's not like I don't know that you have sex with him, but it just fucks me up to read or hear about it. I feel like a hypocrit. And I hate it. I don't want to make a big deal out of this, I don't even think I want to talk about it. I just wanted you to know, incase I act...out of sorts. It's not you, and I'm just trying to work through it.
That was the text I got tonight as a result of writing about GG in my poly blog today.

This, only a couple hours after telling me he would like to go to the now 25 yo's derby event next month.

Chick who has a conflict with me that started with her telling me he has no issues with poly any more and I am the one who needs to let go of all of the unnecessary boundary restrictions because he doesn't need them, and I'm just being vindictively possessive so he can't be with her. Uh huh.

Right. Same chick who thinks that she knows him so much better than I do and that I just don't understand how much he has changed that he totally understands and accepts my relationship with GG and that he just wants and needs me to give him the opportunity to build the same type of relationship. (as if i am stopping him).
Same chick who refuses to sit down with me face to face and resolve the conflict between us which escalated with her tash talking of me, and instead has convinced him to sweep it all under the carpet and they can go on with their little social life together and pretend nothing happened and that I dont exist.

To say my blood is boiling would be putting it mildly. I'm seething. Grow the fuck up! Oh my lord. Venomous fury.

What the fuck is so hard to understand about taking time to develop at least a friendly, respectful metamour relationship? What the fuck is so hard to understand About clear and direct communication with metamours is NECESSARY to ensure a safe trip thru their fucking airspace?

She is a self righteous, self centered bitch.
He is a fucking moron.
I am fucking caught in a game of Muppet bullshit and I cant get calm enough to find the fucking appropriate exit.
God DAMN IT.

I texted back that he should forward the message to her. Let her rationalize out what the fuck I am supposed to do with it.
__________________

[LovingRadiance]

There were several pages of good advice in my blog regarding that one. Feel free to go read through there if interested:

http://www.polyamory.com/forum/showthread.php?t=6352&page=32

[LovingRadiance]

I'm furious with both of them. Mostly (at this point) for dragging this shit out over SO MANY FUCKING MONTHS. Not once (and I've been asking since the first week of January) has she agreed to sit down with both of us to discuss OUR boundaries. HE continues to talk to her.
In my personal world-that is BULLSHIT on both of their parts.
I didn't have time to write out my WHOLE thought process last night-but believe me, I am definitely addressing my anger towards him-to him. I can't address my anger to her (except here) because she fucking won't allow me to have her email, phone number or mailing address. So, I have no way of contacting her directly. (which is ANOTHER of my bitches regarding her).

BUT-yes, in the heat of the moment-it all just mixes into one ball of fury and like gala girl said-I needed to go take some time for me, because I just couldn't even deal with any of it-much less piece it all out one at a time.

As for Muppets-I like them too. But, I also get her point, which is that they function like spoiled children much of the time, and while it's hilarious on tv-it's NOT hilarious when people behave that way in relationships. It's a royal pain in the ass.
As I tell my kids, just because a (pick a child 3-5 year younger than them) does that and its cute-does NOT mean its cute when someone your age does it-because by the time you reach your age, you should know better. This remains an ongoing issue-as she continues to contact him and he contacts her and there remains no agreement on her part to meet with me.
They are texting back and forth-he's an emotional basketcase over the conversations with her to the point that he isn't spending any time with the family.
So, the continued contact, without forward progress is taking a huge toll on everyone else in the household.

[LovingRadiance]

They've been talking all day-we've been talking all day (all via text).

I don't even know where it stands at this point.

She told him she thought everything was fine, based upon something he told her I said-which never should have been said to her, because it was personal between us.

Now he tells her, well no not really, you still need to resolve things with LR and of course that sets her off.
Ironically-the whole thing is stupid-because
SHE is the one who wanted the WHOLE FAMILIES to be friends-but
SHE is the one who is avoiding even TALKING TO ME (or anyone but Maca).
How the fuck is THAT supposed to work?
Obviously, it hasn't worked for 9 months because IT ISN'T GOING TO FUCKING WORK. (rolling my eyes).

I KNOW a large part of the issue is his less than stellar communication skills.
But DAMN-how long can you drag it out before you say "look fuck this, I need to talk to your wife cause this shit isn't making sense?"
I mean really-ESPECIALLY when said wife is CONTINUOUSLY requesting to talk to YOU?

Ongoing "avoidy" and ongoing failure to address any tier of the poly-math but their own.

[LovingRadiance]

It's been a frightfullly long and frustrating weekend. I don't know what he understands or what he doesn't. I'm flat exhausted from trying. I feel much the same as I did after my surgeries, except instead of it being purely physical exhuastion from my body needing to heal, it's emotional and psychological exhaustion.

I did try to institute the no talking about me rule. It hasn't gone well. I don't know.

He told me today that the reason he wants someone "so bad" is because "I don't want to be alone". I stopped talking because there is nothing good I can say in reply to that.
If I were a "potential" and I found that out-he'd be off of my list of possible dates immediately. I'd be so damn offended his head would spin with my exit. I feel much the same even though it's not me he's chasing.
I can't find appropriate words to explain my reaction of complete and utter disgust-so I haven't tried to say a word about it.

It's disturbing to think about because it takes me all the way back 15 years, to when our relationship started, wondering if that's the reason he hooked up with me? Sure, NOW I've "earned my keep" so to speak and we have all sorts of combined responsibilities. But, was the key first reason just so he wouldn't be alone?
I'm not sure I want to follow that train of thought, because frankly, it makes my stomach churn considering the possibility of being used just to fill the empty space in someone's life. Fucking disgusts me.

I continue to find the whole ideology of JUST wanting someone *anyone* vs finding *that special* someone that fits-disturbing.

[LovingRadiance]

Wow.. Just wow.

We had drama all weekend, with Maca deciding he wasn't going to deal with her anymore unless/until she made plans to deal with the issues with all three of us and go over the boundaries-then contacting her (behind my back) back and forth and back and forth.

Sunday we went over the secrecy and lying and how unacceptable that is. Better to tell me he changed his mind (even if it is every hour) than to lie and sneak around behind my back.

Monday after work, we were sitting on the couch together. He got a phone call-he didn't recognize the number, so he read it off to me. I didn't recognize it as one I knew offhand (and said so) but I did recognize it as a local land-line number. I was online, so I typed it into the search engine. But, my internet was slow. He answered before it found the business-a local florist.

I heard the conversation. Part way through he took the call outside allegedly to get an address for the caller.

When he came in again, I asked him what that was all about. He made up a story about it being his co-worker, a very detailed and complicated line of BULLSHIT.
I replied with, "so he was calling from the business he was at?"
He said no, he was calling from his cell.
I pointed out that no, that was a local landline-not a cell.

Meanwhile, as he elaborated on his lie-in great depth, I typed out a fairly quick email, to him, stating that I know darnwell his co-worker doesn't work at the local florist and asking-why are you lying to me.

I was so upset, I couldn't talk. He noticed my hands were shaking and I stood up, nearly dropping my cell. I was so astounded at the audacity of the lie and the deliberateness of it and the great depth he went to, to convince me of it. I was speechless.
He asked me if I was ok. I said, "No. No I'm not. I can't talk. I emailed you."
Then I went to the bathroom and sitting on the toilet burst into shocked tears.

After I calmed down some, I went to our room and lay in the bed trying to reason through WTF had just happened, before I confronted him.
But, I knew he'd been up for over 24 hours at that point and was exhausted-not the best time for such a serious conversation.

I decided to go pick up homework from a friend and let myself cool off-waiting til morning to confront the topic.

I came upstairs and let him know. He had read the email and was devastated. He wrote me back an "omg how could you ever forgive me" email while I was gone.

But-at 3am, he woke up (medicated unbeknownst to me) and flew off the handle. We had a HELL of a fight. He basically blamed it all on me. Told me I always have to have everything my way, that I force him to live life my way and I don't care about what anyone wants but myself (things she has suggested based on BULLSHIT he's told her). He threw it in my face that I have GG and he is "alone" (even though I NEVER EVER make plans with GG if Maca is available) and accused me of not allowing him to have someone else (again-NOT TRUE).

Anyway-I was devastated.
About 6am he apologized and said he didn't know what he was thinking blah blah blah and wanting me to tell him what to do to fix it.

That continued to flip flop through Tuesday with him alternately wanting to cuddle and make love ( I refused) and then being pissed off that I was "being a bitch" and blaming me for everything and then being apologetic for everything again and wanting me to tell him what to do to fix things, what I wanted etc only to fly off the handle when I told him no-this was his mess and it was his job to figure out what HE wanted and what HE needed to do with it.

By Tuesday night I was such a mess, I had to walk away and ended up sleeping on the couch.

This morning at 6am he woke me on the couch being sweet, told me he would be back to pack his things after work.
I didn't reply immediately and he asked me what I was thinking. I said, "you need to do what you need to do."
He got pissed and sat down and said, "well you won't TELL ME what you want me to do."
Then he stormed out of the house in a fury.

I texted him that no, I can't TELL HIM what I want him to do-because that results in him later saying I MADE him do what I wanted-and he needs to decide what he NEEDS TO DO.
He was pissy and went off about how he doesn't know what to do and I'm making it more difficult.

At 6:45 I called him and asked him how he expects me to answer "what do I do" without telling him what to do. He was all mellow and apologetic and told me there wans't any way (or reason) I could answer that. That he needs to figure it out for himself, that he was being unreasonable and that he can't even remember what HAPPENED the night before because he took 5 prescription pain pills (normal dose is 1/2 a pill) "hoping I wouldn't ever wake up".

WTF?!?!?!?!??!

This afternoon his boss and friend sent him home sick from work (sick as a dog coughing and hacking). He's been passed out on the couch sick for the last 5 hours.

I'm devastated.
I'm pissed.
I'm astounded.

I don't even know what to SAY.
I could try to get him put in the hospital-but they won't admit him unless he's willing-(have some experience as my parents work in that field up here).
He won't go willing-so that is a waste of energy on my part.

WTF.

(that's mostly rhetorical)

When he came home-he asked me if he could have a few days to get well before dealing with anything. So... I'm sitting here.
I can't argue that trying to deal with stuff when he's so ill is unreasonable.
At the same time-HOLY FUCK!

Avoidy, flip/flop behavior in desperation, inappropriate "coping" behaviors/suicide attempt? (he denies it now), her continued dis-interest in DOING anything to resolve this issue which is growing exponentially.

[LovingRadiance]

Maca and I talked some last night.
Things remain unresolved with the other girl.
She is struggling to accept that the reason for the boundaries we have aren't "just to protect LR" but in fact those boundaries were created to protect Maca and that as the CURRENT boundaries stand-they are what WE BOTH want for our dynamic.

He reiterated his need for her to sit down with both of us and go over things. She wanted to know what I wanted to talk to her about (as if it remains just ME).
He told her we need to discuss the boundaries, time constraints, expectations.
Her response was that it is all "too complicated".
I am disgusted with her response and attitude and I am disgusted and resentful over his continuing to prioritize finding a solution with her-whilst he's destroying everything between us.

"too complicated"

While I understand that there are people who like the freedom of being able to come and go as they please-and I respect that FOR THEM-

I find it INCREASINGLY irritating that people can't fathom that this is UNREALISTIC in my life.

I pointed out to Maca last night-in response to this comment from the other girl-

Even as a single man after his divorce:

He had a time limit, becuase he had a 2 year old at home and was a single dad. He DID NOT HAVE TO TELL the people he dated that was WHY his time was limited-
but it didn't change the fact THAT his time was limited.

He didn't have to tell that his $$ was limited-but it remained limited.

There WERE boundaries in his life-even as a single man-and while people he dated didn't necessarily have to be told WHY any given boundary existed-they did run into those boundaries.

So it's NOT "more complicated" that we have boundaries now.
We had them when we were single.
We have them now as married's.

We will ALWAYS have them-even if we divorce.

What may change is the specifics of those boundaries and/or the reasons for them.

The truth is that asking to be able to STATE what our limits are for what we can offer someone is actually a KINDNESS and a sign of respect for THEM.

The other option, is what he and she have done for the last year; which is to NOT state those limits clearly, so that she continuously finds herself hurt and upset AND hurting and upsetting him and/or I and/or GG and/or the kids
BECAUSE SHE HAS NO CLUE WHERE THE BOUNDARIES ARE and so she inadvertently steps on them.
Ouch. How disrespectful to ask someone to play a game with you and then not tell them the rules until after they break them! Talk about setting them up for failure.

Her ideology that it is "too complicated" could be restated as
"I prefer to find out the hard way what the rules of the game are."
or
"I enjoy the pain and misery I suffer and I cause by continuously breaking rules I have no intention of learning about."

I find this... disturbing.

[BoringGuy]

So, has he moved out again or are you still dealing with this bullshit under your own roof? You said a little while ago that he was coming back from work to pack up his belongings. Is that a thing, or was it just talk?

The fact is, reading your installments usually gives me a headache, but i find it irresistible like a soap-opera where it leaves the viewer hanging on a Friday and has to see one more episode just to see what happens next, only to get sucked in to the next story-line. If I did not know better, I'd think you were writing a novel instead of a biography. It is very much like a novel, except one where the reader gets to interact with the author as the story is being written.

I do wonder how much longer you intend to put up with this. Indefinitely?

That is all, for now.

[LovingRadiance]

The ultimatum has been dropped by me-as of last night when the discussion happened.
I laid it out as

this is non-negotiable.

I compared it to BDSM.
There is no room for play until negotiations of soft and hard limits has been established AND AGREED TO.

These boundaries are the soft/hard limits of our polydynamic. No agreement to them-no play. PERIOD.

He is devastated.
But-he understands BDSM negotiation well and agreed that it did make sense.

He also clearly grasped that the "it's too complicated" crap was CRAP after I gave the examples regarding the fact that EVERYONE has boundaries and limits-even singles and monos.
MOST don't state them and thus end up ruining relationships with unnecessary toe stomping-but the boundaries and limits exist none-the-less.

Everyone has time constraints, everyone has financial limitations, everyone has safer sex limitations (even if their limit is a free for all-that is their limit), etc.

Asking that someone be AWARE of ours before playing on our game board isn't "too complicated" it's actually respectful and considerate of THEM. I elaborated here:

http://aafteota.wordpress.com/2012/1...-by-the-rules/
Ironically-where things stand, I am still stuck.
I have no way of knowing if they are in contact, unless he tells me (or I go searching which I don't have time, energy or interest in doing).
But-trusting him is out too-because he's proven himself untrustworthy and nothing significant has happened to prove otherwise in the week since.

In point of fact-they were continuing to talk yesterday and there has been no forward progress.

I am now at the point of believing that in order for OUR relationship and OUR family to heal from the insanity of HIS out of control wishy-washy behavior, triggered by his desperation to cling to her-
she needs to be OUT OF THE PICTURE ALL TOGETHER.

He needs to look at himself and see that the emotional toll "chasing her" is taking on him is damaging him AND HIS WHOLE LIFE-including work, physical health, emotional health, mental stability and his family.

[LovingRadiance]

With her in particular
because of the history (they broke boundaries and she got all bent out of shape over my not being enough of a "hostess" while she was here);
She claims to want to spend time with the whole family

I said that I needed her to understand that
A) as "just friends" (which is what they supposedly are) kissing and sex are off limits.
[they were making out in our kitchen in front of our guests and children]

B)I am not a hostess. I'm not going to be but it's not a personal slight against HER-I don't do those things for ANYONE.

C)if she wants to participate in our family she can't continue talking smack about me [that is addressed in this thread:http://www.polyamory.com/forum/showthread.php?t=28151]

Really-that's it.

HE may have other things HE wants to address with her. All I wanted was for her to understand that talking smack about me isn't going to be acceptable if she wants our families to socialize together, I'm not going to cater to her personally while she's in my home, her definition of friends [which she stated to me specifically] is fine for OTHER friends of hers, but kissing and making out isn't something we do with friends.

She has no idea how simple it could be. Because she's afraid to even chance having a conversation with me.

I really don't see any of it being functionally possible at this point. Nor do I see either of them making the effort to do the self-inventory and take personal responsibility for the damage they are individually causing themselves and the rest of us to make it feasible to go anywhere with being friends. Thus-I think it would be pointless to go over any of this with her NOW.

[LovingRadiance]

After 7 months of "avoidy"-in response to his increased frustration over wanting to have her participate in family functions, which he claims was based upon her continued requests to; I wrote the following email. I had to send it to him-because I don't have contact info for her. He forwarded it to her after reading it. At that point he felt it was fine. AFTER she read it, she flipped out and then he decided I was being unreasonable.



"I'm going to try to cut to the chase and keep this short and succinct.
That's not my forte-so if there is anything that you need me to
elaborate on-feel free to ask.

I asked you to stop contacting me for one very specific reason. I
found it offensive and overstepping your bounds to suggest to me that
the "real" Maca is the person you understood Maca to be versus who I
understand him to be.

I don't hate you. Nor do I believe you are a bad person, a trouble
maker, etc.I do think it would be a good idea going forward, for you
to understand that the two of you have stepped on my toes. Earning
trust takes time and effort. Earning trust after having caused someone
harm requires more time and effort. I am not a vindictive or possessive
person. However, I do have very high standards and expectations
regarding who I open up and offer my own friendship to.

I am hurt by derogatory things you said about me. I understand that
you based your statements on what you knew from the things Maca said.
That means a large part of the responsibility lays on his shoulders,
for considering what he says, what he does not say and how the
combination affects people's perceptions of who he's talking about.
However, they were still untrue assessments of who I am as a person
and it hurts me to have such things said of me.

I believe that many of the issues which arose between Maca and I at
the time you two started meeting in person have been dealt with in a
manner that should alleviate further conflict. I think he and I are
fairly clear between one another about what our expectations are with
each other regarding other friends and lovers.

I don't have any idea if you are clear on what my expectations are
regarding how I expect to be treated by Maca friends/lovers. There
seems to be two schools of thought on the topic. One is that it is his
responsibility to ensure that you are. The other is that I need to
clearly communicate my expectations to you.
I tend to be of the second school of thought. Maca tends towards the
first. As this is his attempt at building an outside friendship with
potential for more, I am willing to go with his tendencies unless
asked by you or him to clarify."

As noted-she took the letter as offensive and they had a falling out of drama over it-which resulted in him coming back to me and laying the blame on me-again.

[LovingRadiance]

Regarding the paragraph regarding her not knowing how I expect to be treated by metamours/friends etc:

respect our boundaries
communicate directly to me on issues regarding me
treat my children with kindness and respect
never talk bad about myself, Chris or Mark in front of our children
respect my personal space
treat me kindly
not talk negatively about me behind my back
consider the consequences of their actions upon me
consider the consequences of their actions on Mark & I’s relationship
consider the consequences of their words upon me
consider the consequences of their words upon Mark & I’s relationship
consider the consequences of their actions on Chris
consider the consequences of their actions on our children
consider the consequences of their words on Chris
consider the consequences of their words on our children
NOT discipline my children
NOT undermine my, Chris’s or Mark’s authority with our children
NOT attempt to get in the middle of any of my other relationships
NOT attempt to undermine any of my other relationships
NOT treat me or my relationships with disdain
Be understanding of the time restraints we have for socializing

It seems obvious to me-I wouldn't normally write it out in a list like that. But-I did, in order to clarify for myself what it was that was pissing me off with the way she treated me.

To clarify-I end relationships with people who mistreat my SO's. I have terminated contact with my father and stepmother and with several close friends.
This has been a very non-negotiable agreement for Maca, GG and I for the duration of our relationships.
We have no contact with Maca's mother and GG's parents either. Because they tried to play favorite's games with our children.

So, to me-this isn't something that needs to be clearly spelled out in this format-in choosing who I socialize with, I choose people who meet the expectations. If they fail to-they get a one time warning.

In this case, she has already stomped on my toes in this arena, so this WOULD BE her warning.
But, she doesn't want the warning.
Which is fine-
in my book-if you don't want it -GO AWAY.

But, you aren't going to be coming closer to me otherwise.

**I never told Maca he couldn't retain a relationship with her. I simply refuse to have anything to do with her or to allow our children to have anything to do with her as long as she refuses to address these issues**

(that has since changed. I have now told him she is a NO GO and NO CONTACT until such time as she contacts me to sit down and talk. But-I have no way of knowing if he sticks to that.)

[Glitter]

We need to look at our precious 24 hours and decide what makes us feel good, productive and empowered. Toss out the guilt, obligation and need to please-itis. Keep standing strong, you are worth it!

[LovingRadiance]

So, has he moved out again or are you still dealing with this bullshit under your own roof? You said a little while ago that he was coming back from work to pack up his belongings. Is that a thing, or was it just talk?

The fact is, reading your installments usually gives me a headache, but i find it irresistible like a soap-opera where it leaves the viewer hanging on a Friday and has to see one more episode just to see what happens next, only to get sucked in to the next story-line. If I did not know better, I'd think you were writing a novel instead of a biography. It is very much like a novel, except one where the reader gets to interact with the author as the story is being written.

I do wonder how much longer you intend to put up with this. Indefinitely?

That is all, for now.

Boring-can I quote that in my personal blog (about the soap opera novel)?
He is still living there. He came back with the 'I promised I wouldn't walk out again'.
I don't know how people can keep reading it. I find it exhausting. I have considered leaving. There's a lot I could say on that, but not yet. I'm in school after 15 years as a sahm. We'll see.

[BoringGuy]

Boring-can I quote that in my personal blog (about the soap opera novel)?
He is still living there. He came back with the 'I promised I wouldn't walk out again'.
I don't know how people can keep reading it. I find it exhausting. I have considered leaving. There's a lot I could say on that, but not yet. I'm in school after 15 years as a sahm. We'll see.

You can quote whatever you want; once something is posted on this forum, it becomes everyone's. I must admit, what I said about soap operas is not very original; I think I heard it somewhere else. But by all means go ahead and please do.

I know you don't want to break up with your husband because you love him and you have kids together, but to me it seems as though he is more like one of the kids than a co-parent TO them. And that is taking away your parenting energy FROM the kids.

I know you're trying to do the right thing, and it is easier said than done. I don't understand how people can go through life purposely making themselves sick and miserable when the recipe for making things better is spelled out before them and all they need to do is walk the path. Of course I don't know your husband, and he hasn't kept his side of the story current, but you don't come on here acting like you don't accept your part of the responsibility for where you're at. It's extremely difficult to wrap my mind around it, but it does appear like you're doing everything in your power to make it better and he is just not on-board with that.

Let's start a drinking game: whenever I say the word "but", everyone has to take a drink.

[SkylerSquirrel]

Didn't Maca post on your blog thread once before? Would it be possible for us to hear his side again?

[LovingRadiance]

Yes Boring. I agree mote later.

I will tell Maca his two cents would be appreciated. But, I can't promise he will. He doesn't frequent the board because it doesn't interest him.

[LovingRadiance]

End of 25 year olds saga. Ateast in regards to our life.

She replied today to my message. Sent it to him to forward. It offended him beyond wanting anything to do with her.

I read the first 4 lines and was offended enough to know I better stop before I flooded emotionally. I deleted and emptied my trash folder.

The basics (that I read) was that I was defending the way I treated Maca (in the letter I sent her which is copied on a previous page) and there was no excuse for how I treated him.
Even he admitted that in all honesty, I didn't do anything to him. I reacted to his lying and boundary breaking. I admit, I did have such a severe emotional breakdown after repeated boundary breaking over a two month period, that I nearly ended up hospitalized in February. But, there's no question that I wasn't randomly freaking out. He admitted even the. That he was doing it-apologized and then it happened again-etc.

So, anyway, the options for 'recovery' with that person are out. Done deal.

Niw-to rebuilding trust.

[Glitter]

Good for you, glad to hear that particular blemish is no longer in your life. Cheers for moving forward with the ones you love!

[LovingRadiance]

Thanks Glitter. I'm still reeling over the arrogance she displayed for having only seen either of us maybe 10 times total and never for more than a cpl hours. As if she could possibly have any clue about our relationship having only talked to him.
Feeling emotionally flooded and hurt. But, relieved to be done with one mess.

[CielDuMatin]

People look at things through their own filters, and often with their own agendas. Often it has no reflection on your reality.

Hard as it may be to do - moving on is best.

[LovingRadiance]

Moving on is MUCH better for me.
Maca is struggling. His feelings are hurt, he misses her and feels like poly is a hopeless and one-sided venture (that he will 'never' find anyone else).

I don't know what to say. So I try not to. As a woman, I see his methodology for finding a woman and am turned off. But-trying to explain that just pisses him off.

[opalescent]

My ex would make 'tiny violin' sounds when I was particularly self-pitying. She would do finger violin motions too. Actually worked - ticked me off and pulled me out of my 'woe is me!' rut. Then I would start laughing. Of course, this does not work if it isn't thought to be funny by the one being mocked.

[LovingRadiance]

Opal, that made me giggle.
That's something GG and I would do to one another freely. :)

Maca's not really talking to me about it.
I inquired about his mood once-he answered me honestly and I let it go at that.

I am much less angry after the email he sent her and I both.* included below* Still working on rebuilding trust from the lying. But, I feel like he at least figured out what it was that royally set me off.
He's been much more forthright about his thoughts, feelings, desires etc since everything blew up. Hopefully, that will be a permanent change.
I know he has commented on the fact that he feels better this way and that he's noticed things go smoother when he's being honest and upfront.

He's even admitted that he thinks he really wants more of a casual sex situation with others-which I've known-but he's refused to admit-because he knows I don't want that.
We've agreed that when it comes time to renegotiate our boundaries we will discuss that.
In the meantime-it's not on the table until then as we agreed to limit boundary changes to specific timeframes on account of me finding it overly upsetting when he wanted to change things for a new relationship or when a new relationship ended and always to his benefit and GG and I's loss.
ANYWAY!
Her out of the picture has been a relief-not only for me, but for GG and the kids too.

I've had some time to think about WTF the issues are.

There are a lot of issues that have lead to the demise of our relationship. For starters, I should have never spoken badly about my wife, not to you or to anyone else. We all have our issues and I KNOW that she has spent YEARS dealing with mine. I had no right to say the things that I said to you and frankly its not something that you should do to someone that you love and is such an important part of your life.
I should have put my foot down the very first time that you spoke badly of her. I shouldn't have let you believe that it was ok for you or anyone else to talk shit about her to me or to anyone else. I fucked that up royally. By my actions and words I gave you a incorrect view of LR and the relationship that her and I have. That was unfair to you and it was fucked up and cruel to LR.

Reading and rereading your response to LRs email to you, I don't see any attempts to resolve the conflicts or even an interest on your part to discuss the issues. I've waited a long time for you to find the "right time to talk". But it hasn't happened and I don't think its ever going to. I told you before that I come as a "package deal". Which means that if you don't mesh with my family, all of them, especially my wife, then there is no deal. Its not like I'm saying that you two need to be best friends but there has to be respect and loyalty to my wife and the rest of my family. Any outside relationship that I have (or she has) has to promote and benefit my love for my wife and family. Just like the guy that said XXX was a asshole. You can not continue with a relationship with someone that speaks that way about your loves. And honestly, even if it was true, he had no right to say that to you or anyone that's in your social group. Opinions are fine but talking shit isn't.

" Seems like your trying to validate the way you treat Maca,which nothing you say can do that." WTF is that? You attack her? She doesn't deserve that. And then to top it off you add "which nothing you say can do that". Its like you were telling her that there is no way that she is good enough for me. If you KNEW the years of history and crap that we have been through, then you would KNOW that its ME that doesn't deserve HER. You said " I know how things are and I am always aware that their are two sides to a story. Not to mention I really haven't known your husband that long so I was in no position to make any judgments ". But you did make a judgment. And you did not try to get her side of the story. Even after I told you that we needed to all 3 sit down and talk, and that LR had agreed to a sit down talk, you didn't want to deal with her. That's not acceptable, not if you want to be a part of our lives.

I know that you wanted to be a great friend to me, I know that you wanted to be helpful, I know that you had reservations about wives of a potential lover. I know that I mislead you and filled your head with all the one sided "bad things" that are happening to me. I don't know how to reverse time, if I did, I would have done it already. I would have changed a lot of things.

We BOTH owe LR an apology. Me, for talking trash about her, for disrespecting her role in my life, for allowing you to do the same thing, for not standing up for her, for getting caught up in NRE and distancing myself AND for not promoting a relationship between you two, for lying to her and for making excuses for why it wasn't a "good time" to get this shit dealt with.

If you can not see that my words in this email are true, and if you still feel the way that you did in your response to her email,and if you don't see where you owe her an apology as well, then I can not continue any type of a relationship with you. I will not continue this way. I really don't know how else to put it. One of my "issues" is trying to sugar coat everything. I told you that we would always be friends. I didn't want to "HURT" you, after you had told me that you were having the worst two months of your life and that you were losing friends and relationships. But the fact of it is, I can't have a friendship with someone that only sees the bad in my wife and isn't willing to say "you know what? There has to be something I'm missing" and then puts in a effort to find out what it is that they are missing.

I apologize to you and your family for the way everything happened.
I apologize to LR for the way everything happened.

Maca

[Dirtclustit]

I can completely relate to your story, as it *almost* sounds like the other end of what happened to me

[nycindie]

. . . if that makes any sense

None at all!

[Dirtclustit]

Then it likely doesn't make sense to anybody, I need to take it down.

Sorry LR, that was not cool for me to write that

D

[LovingRadiance]

I can completely relate to your story, as it *almost* sounds like the other end of what happened to me

I wrote you back in pm Dirtclustit.
I accept the apology AND more importantly-
I COMPLETELY understand how the situation could trigger you if you were in the other position.

One thing I will add here, that wasn't in the PM-because it should be re-stated publicly:

In relationships, it is ABSOLUTELY imperative for each individual to take full responsibility for their choices.

This young lady DID GET HURT.
She got hurt because Maca lied and she chose not to bother taking the time to sit down with anyone else in his life.
HAD SHE MET US in the beginning-his lies would have fallen flat immediately.

*HE WAS WRONG FOR LYING-no excuses.

SHE was stupid for setting herself up in a position where she didn't take advantage of the opportunity to double check the validity of a COMPLETE STRANGERS WORDS.

Neither of those things fall under my responsibilities.
I DID try to communicate with her directly. She refused.
I DO promote within polyamory that all partners meet face to face.
Other people don't.

BUT-my reasons are clear for why I promote that.
We can all HOPE that everyone we meet is a fully healthy, honest, educated adult who will never do any dysfunctional shit to/with us.
BUT WE DON'T LIVE IN THAT REALITY.

I don't choose to pretend that the world is so shiny. I know damn well its not.

In this case, I had a responsibility to offer myself for communication and friendly discourse (which I did).
SHE had a responsibility to access whatever channels she could to verify the circumstances she was making judgments on.
HE had a responsibility to be honest and forthright.

NEITHER of them held up their end of the ball and they both got hurt. Other people got hurt too-but the hurt they suffer is a direct result of their choices.

My hurt is a direct result of my choice to remain married to a man who has terrible communication skills, struggles with introspection, avoids conflict to the point of lying, has severe insecurities and possessiveness issues all of which negatively impact his ability to maintain relationships of any depth.

There are times in life we all "get screwed".
But, most often-those times are DIRECT RESULTS of our OWN choices. If we instead learn to change our choices, we can change the results.

(which is why I am here-so I can learn alternate options and figure out which work best for me)
;)

[Dirtclustit]

For understanding and being strong enough/kind enough to respond in the tone of voice you wrote in. It's not an easy thing to do.

and for accepted my apology, as I was wrong

D