Huge Problem likely Small Issue for your veterans, please help [Archive]

PolyPhonic

08-31-2012, 01:44 AM

"What ideas for compromise can she(mono) and I(poly) come to?"

Hi,

I've got a huge problem at home, that for you guys probably will seem like pretty small fry as far as poly/mono dilemmas go (because I'm not asking for another person to move in with us). I'm new to understanding poly and I feel like I have found what truly lines up with the way I think, feel, and believe, however my fiance is "mono wired" and getting destroyed by me talking about it and trying to peddle it to her.

I'm trying to be honest and open with my feelings to her, and everytime she sees it as a threat to her instead of just listening to my feelings and thoughts, and ends up broken down crying, or non-communicative than screaming in frustrations. She just told me "seriously" that I have two weeks to stop thinking like this and acting like this or she's taking our new 4-month old baby and leaving me.

My biggest question here to all of you will be "What ideas for compromise can she and I come to?" I am totally new to this, and I don't have a clue as to the solutions for a mono-wired poly-wired union.

THE BACKSTORY:

She is Latina from Central America (yeah I know, talk about ancient beliefs).

I am from Hollywood, CA (yeah I know, free thinking lala land).

During the course of our relationship I learned Spanish and she learned English. We used online translation through that process and before.

Ok, so, when we first met over a year ago, I told her I wanted her to play with other girls, and that I'd like to "have fun like that". She said that would be cool, and that she kissed another girl once and liked it, it made her horny.

So we continued to fall in love, she moved in, we got pregnant, we moved to an island in the Caribbean, whilst never exploring all that. We planned on getting married, and we've recently engaged, but I call her my wife. I have been in a marriage before, and a few other long term relationships, and I treat her as my wife, so I call her my wife. But we are to be married in a few months.

SO THEN WE ADDED A GIRL TO THE MIX:
Ok, so here on the Island in the Caribbean are a ton of beautiful girls in bikinis who are interested in me, and that really activated my desires to start experimenting with playing with one who would be interested in playing with both of us.

She totally agreed, and through the process of flirting with about 20 girls, I found 1 who was into it. So we all three became friends and talked about playing one night, getting in the hot tub and having fun in our bedroom. We met to get to know each other and it turned into us all touching each other and cuddling in bed and kissing each other, and we all liked it even though since it was new to us all, we were all nervous. But we liked it and we agreed to have her spend the night one night. I let my wife and the girl go to a local nightclub one night and they had a blast and came home but the other girl had to leave because her sister was going to rat her out, whatever.

So sleeping together hasn't happened yet, for various logistical reasons, which always felt like excuses to me. So I kept pressing it, because I didn't want it to become thin air :)

ADD NEW LIFESTYLE IDEAS TO THE MIX (for adding crazy pressure):
So then we started watching THE GIRLS NEXT DOOR, POLYAMORY (The Showtime Show), and reading about that lifestyle and I completely realized that was for me and that here on the island I could easily go so far as to setup a kind of den of girls if I wanted to. It'd be very easy down here to do that.

I started talking about that to her, and she didn't find it fun, or funny, or anything, and all the different shows we were watching, and talking to the new girl, finally has caused her to have what I see as a NERVOUS BREAKDOWN almost. Trembling fear.

She sabotaged our building relationship with the new girl, she called her and told her she can't handle it. So now the new girl is never going to feel secure in trying that with her.

THE PROBLEM IS:
She wants to spend the rest of her life with me, but now she is giving me an ultimatum: "stop flirting with girls or I"m leaving you. You have 2 weeks to quit it." I told her that utlimatums are not a mature way to handle a relationship, and that we should reach that conclusion together by talking everything through.

She said she would like to know how to be with me and have her beliefs, and to meet me in the middle where I have my beliefs. But we don't have any ideas.

MY SOLUTIONS THUS FAR:
- I said how about when you are on your period, I can go enjoy some time with these girls? Answer: NO
- Let's try and play with another girl. Answer: I really don't like that anymore.
- What if someone moved in with us? Answer: I would leave you.

She's called me Machista, when I am totally not. I don't work out, I'm very sensitive and affectionate, I prefer hanging out with girls, and I hate sports. I just am very open minded, and I don't see the point of monogamy if everyone is having fun. She says "It doesn't sound like fun to me" even though in the past we've tried and she's said she likes it. It just feels like projection of insecurity to me, not honestly that it doesn't sound like fun to her. Because she's been into it.

Please can anyone start a dialogue with me and offer us some help?

Thank you so much in advance for taking time out of your night or day to offer your kind words.

Evan

LovingRadiance

08-31-2012, 02:16 AM

In the midst of an anxiety attack or nervous breakdown-there is only one route and that is comfort until they are safe and securely right-minded again.

I say that AS a poly person who is completely supportive of open relationships. Because I also have anxiety issues and I had a serious nervous breakdown or mental break this last winter.

There is no reasoning with someone who is in that state-they can't even reason with themselves and its unfair to try and enforce it.
It's also unreasonable to make any sort of future plans, agreements or commitments (including marriage) with someone whilst they are in that state.

The only right answer is to stop, assess, comfort and heal.

THEN one can discuss the future, commitments and potential agreements.

PolyPhonic

08-31-2012, 02:25 AM

You know that sounds really sensible. Thank you. And I'm glad I posted such a thorough post so that you could be sensitive to something that was probably only a "texture" to the real problem. I will see where that gets me(us)..."Pause", until things are stable again. Great point!

MusicalRose

08-31-2012, 02:30 AM

Anneintherain

08-31-2012, 06:24 AM

So then we started watching THE GIRLS NEXT DOOR, POLYAMORY (The Showtime Show), and reading about that lifestyle and I completely realized that was for me and that here on the island I could easily setup a kind of den of girls.

I started talking about that to her, and she didn't find it fun, or funny, or anything, and all the different shows we were watching, and talking to the new girl, finally has caused her to have what I see as a NERVOUS BREAKDOWN almost. Trembling fear.

She said she would like to know how to be with me and have her beliefs, and to meet me in the middle where I have my beliefs. But we don't have any ideas.

MY SOLUTIONS THUS FAR:
- I said how about when you are on your period, I can go enjoy some time with these girls? Answer: NO
- Let's try and play with another girl. Answer: I really don't like that anymore.
- What if someone moved in with us? Answer: I would leave you.

Evan

Are you actually 100% serious that your idea of poly is that you have a den of girls? I kind of have my fingers crossed you're just joking about it, that you're trolling and not that you think that a couple of reality tv shows is what the general practice of polyamory's "multiple loving (sexually intimate or otherwise) relationships with the knowledge and consent of all involved" means to you.

If my husband had said he wanted a den of girls, I would be afraid (who the fuck is this person I married who talked a bit of open relationships, experimented a bit and now wants a harem?) That is sure not the poly lifestyle most poly people are having, of course she didn't find it funny or fun, you took a giant leap.

Do you think it might be less self centered to think about if a good compromise might be that you date one other person at a time, so your mono wife isn't overwhelmed? Or keep playing as a threesome (if your partner still consents) until she is comfortable enough to be talk about you dating separately?

I don't know that you are actually looking for poly and loving relationships, the way you've handled things with your wife seems very klutzy and not aimed towards a sensitive healthy negotiation where you are keeping both your comfort levels in mind. I mean you start of saying its not like you are asking somebody to move in with you... but you asked your wife what would happen if somebody moved in with you. :confused:

I'd say back way up and get some books on poly where there are great recommendations in the "books and website recommendations" sticky thread at the top of the boards, and read and learn together, go slow and remember to put your wife-to-be and child up there as important to you as your hugh hefner fantasies.

nycindie

09-01-2012, 02:19 AM

A den of girls? Seriously? Oh jeez. You're talking about being open and focused on sex, which isn't really what poly is about.

MzWiz

09-01-2012, 01:48 PM

Ok, playing devils advocate here.....
Mostly because I dream of having a big house whereas I'm the only female and I've 2 or 3 husbands :-)

A den of girls, a harem, yup, I can see the attraction
Granted I wouldn't want to be there when their menstral cycles line up and there's PMS flying about, but putting that aside for a moment....
Have you thought of the logistics of this? How it could be accomplished?
Setting aside the fact that we all grow differently, have different needs at any particular phase of our lives,
Odds are, one or more within you group will have children, each have their own past/present family/friends... may or may not work, be able to add financially to the collective, may or may not get along with one another....
Are you willing/able to accept responsibility for several women's needs/wants as well as those of their children (present & future), to house them, feed, them, care for them not only superficially/financially but also emotionally & spiritually, helping each of them grow into whomever they wish to become?

Honey, you may want to think about this a bit more before going to the hardware store to cut keys for your front door
Have you heard of in-line families?
I'm researching this actually, seems very well thought out....

If I had a magic wand and could "pooff" your desired world now exists, what do you see? Start easy with the logistics (housing, medical, school/education, whatnot), them try and move into the "soft" aspects; emotions

On my side I logic/lie to myself in thinking men are different then women so having 2-3 men under the same roof would be easier than having 2-3 women, and in some senses that may be true (please people, don't flame me for this, just call me naive and laugh, please, I like my dream even if in practice it may not hold together... but I don't know that yet as my reality isn't there yet)
But even then, I have to consider their children, their exs, their families, friends, coworkers...
Trying to get one relationship solid is hard enough, trying to get multiples under one roof in a long term growth oriented structure.... My ideal, yes, but I know it's going to be a heck of a lot of work/negotiation/compromise and as people are ever changing, just as everything is going well, life will send us another curve ball....

Think about it....... In your ideal situation, beyond sexual fantasies, what does it look/feel like.... And are these views/perceptions possible or just a great wet dream?

PolyPhonic

09-01-2012, 02:37 PM

I guess my question for you is have you clearly stated your intentions, needs, wants, and limits for your fiance? It sounds like it started as you just kind of expressing to her that a threesome might be fun and then all of a sudden you sprang on her that you want actual relationships with girls (or the thought of setting up a "den" of girls).Well, in my heart I know I'd most enjoy living with 3 girls while we(the pod of 4) see and have fun with more. I'm a very sharing person, it approaches neurotic but I guess a lot of poly people are like that and it's just a "neurotic" stigma I have to come to terms with as a poly-wired person. I am comfortable making other people happy. I enjoy it. I totally line up with the concept of compersion. That said I am Hetero, and although I would experiment with a guy to make my girl happy, I'm not wired to like guys. I prefer women, I'm not even bi-curious, but I am secure enough to do anything. My point is I am ok with my girls playing with other guys. I don't have an ounce of jealousy in my soul because I believe there are so many options in life, and so many people to share with, that losing something of value is only a step towards the next great adventure. My feeling is if someone I love wants to be happier with someone else than I am happy that makes them happy and they can do what they like. So I don't get threatened by men mixing in. But I do prefer all girls.

Ok so, it's kind of like I came out of the closet. For my first marriage (10 years) I had no clue. I was dormant. I did what I thought society wanted you to do. After the divorce, I became less attached to that society had all the right answers and I started thinking for myself. I dated about 50 girls, and was seeing 7 at the same time, but I never mixed them and got a threesome going, but I was honest with all of them about everyone else I was seeing.

But still my goal in my mind was to find a monogamous life partner. I was having fun looking. I found a super hot girl and got engaged and she cheated on me and we broke up and I couldn't understand how a person could be dishonest and could cheat, I'd never experienced dishonesty before (I was naive I admit). As an honest person, I figured if I had an urge to be with another woman I would have spoken openly about my feelings to her and I expected my partner to be the same. I never experienced the sneaking behind my back, lying, cheating thing before.

So that really left me with a distaste for people who did not have the ability to be open with their feelings and communication. And it further amplified my own desire to be even more open, more myself, an even better communicator, and it led me to realize that: to each his own. You can be gay, I can be straight, you can be Jewish, I can be Catholic, etc. Let's just all get along and each of us do what makes us happiest without using our own beliefs to judge each other.

In the back of my mind I was still searching for a lifelong monogamous partner all this time. So this is when I met who I am with now.

But when we met I was still halfway dormant as a poly-wired person and totally ignorant of it other than people try threesomes and the legend of the Playboy Mansion, and of course polygamy etc. But while together I saw an episode of Dr. Phil where a guy and 2 wives lived together in something called Polyamory, and he could only marry one etc. It just really opened up my mind.

So I did make sure to let her know that I wanted threesomes to be part of my lifestyle and we talked about that a few times.

It wasn't until as things progressed and I started to learn so much about this dormant side of me through researching the concept and exposing myself to the universe of ideas, that I found that I wanted so much more.

So that's how it went from "how about a threesome" to "how about living with some other girls that we both love?".
She hasn't had much say in this and it sounds like something that is really making her uncomfortable.I have to give her credit though for even talking about "how can you be happy and I be happy and we meet in the middle?"If nothing else, give each other some time to cool down, stop pressuring her to add other relationships for a while, and put your impending marriage on hold until you can find a resolution for this. I would also suggest some counseling in the meantime.Yeah, wish that was possible where we are, but we are on an Island in the Caribbean and there isn't a psychologist on the island, let alone a specialist in these ideas.Another question. It sounds with the "den of girls" idea, that you are maybe forgetting that your fiance or some of these other girls might not just want to be with you. If your fiance agrees to a polyamorous relationship, are you going to be comfortable if she gets involved with other men?You know I totally was just throwing the "den of girls" idea out there as an example of the potential of my situation, it really did not represent what I am pushing on my wife-to-be. A lot of respondants are focusing on that, and that really isn't something that I said I was peddling to my fiancee. It was just an example of the kind of temptation out here seducing my open mind. But I can be happy with a compromise.

MzWiz

09-01-2012, 02:49 PM

Quote:
You know I totally was just throwing the "den of girls" idea out there as an example of the potential of my situation, it really did not represent what I am pushing on my wife. A lot of respondants are focusing on that, and that really isn't something that I said I was peddling to my fiancee. It was just an example of the kind of temptation out here seducing my open mind. But I am happy with a compromise.
:Unquote

My apologies, I dd not mean to offend
My mind has been playing with this as well, researching potentialities, logistics, existing scenarios, variations....
Having brought this subject up in my primary, I've received resistance
Was just wondering if you thought of this, spoken with her about it....
My apologies

PolyPhonic

09-01-2012, 02:59 PM

A den of girls? Seriously? Oh jeez. You're talking about being open and focused on sex, which isn't really what poly is about.Thanks for the response NYC, but no, I am not talking about a Den Of Girls. That has been taken out of context a couple times here now. The "Den of Girls" was an example of what could be done where I live because of the situation on this island (it's a long winded social and economic discussion as to how the girls here would be into that, but suffice to say it could be done.).

But no that is not what I was talking about in my post. Only that one night I used that as an example in my discussions with my wife-to-be as to what is possible here. It wasn't the best vision to throw a mono-wired person who loves you, I admit, but at that time I wasn't even aware that people were "wired". After learning about "wiring" I completely agree with the idea. I see some others try and say that there is no such thing as "wiring" but I completely disagree, and I know too much about psychology to ever think otherwise.

Alright so anyway, just to clarify from my original post, personally, what I want is to be in a relationship with just enough partners as to satisfy my desire to share love whilst not approaching "polysaturation". And to have the freedom to ignite my internal light through flirting with new people. An Open Poly relationship, which is basically an open lifestyle, a poly lifestyle.

However I believe my fiancee either needs to be slowly introduced to all this, or will never be into anything more than playing with threesomes.

Derbylicious

09-01-2012, 03:20 PM

PolyPhonic

09-01-2012, 03:21 PM

Ok, playing devils advocate here.....
Mostly because I dream of having a big house whereas I'm the only female and I've 2 or 3 husbands :-) Haha, alright.A den of girls, a harem, yup, I can see the attractionAbsolutely. Attraction. Temptation. If I was single I would set it up and master it.Granted I wouldn't want to be there when their menstral cycles line up and there's PMS flying about, but putting that aside for a moment.... I'm fortunate enough to have had the experiences in life to be able to handle women. I am confident I can handle those moments. I have the tools. Hell worst case scenario, tell them to go shopping! lolHave you thought of the logistics of this? How it could be accomplished?Actually yes. I have a notebook where I completely came up with a recruiting process, a breakin process, rules, how to take care of each them financially, health, etc. It sounds crazy, but I like to master the things that I do in my life, and I wanted to be sure I could handle all the aspects that could come up since they would all be relying on me as the pillar in the house. That is something attractive I provide my girls, stability and security, and I like to make sure I emanate that at all times, so I wanted ot be sure I knew how to react in all situations (STD tests, being seen in public, catfights, and situations I am still realizing could come about).Setting aside the fact that we all grow differently, have different needs at any particular phase of our lives,
Odds are, one or more within you group will have children, each have their own past/present family/friends...Yeah, no problem. Where I live cost of living is cheap and I make US money with a job over the internet, so the amount I make puts me in the situation to be able to keep situations like that copasetic financially because of how much cheaper it is to live here. Also I have 6 kids myself.may or may not work, be able to add financially to the collective, may or may not get along with one another....
Are you willing/able to accept responsibility for several women's needs/wants as well as those of their children (present & future), to house them, feed, them, care for them not only superficially/financially but also emotionally & spiritually, helping each of them grow into whomever they wish to become?Absolutely! In fact I am beginning to feel that is what I am here for. That is part of my purpose in life, to offer a kind sharing nurturing relationship to women in a non-threatening sharing loving environment. Absolutely! You just said exactly what excites me in life, what makes me feel happy to do.Honey, you may want to think about this a bit more before going to the hardware store to cut keys for your front doorI already have a security guard and camera system worked into my notebook.Have you heard of in-line families?
I'm researching this actually, seems very well thought out....No haven't heard of that. I will check it out.If I had a magic wand and could "pooff" your desired world now exists, what do you see?[QUOTE=MzWiz;152102]I see more women getting their emotional needs met, more men getting their emotional needs met, and more understanding of how to be respectful to each other as individuals in a society that is more accepting of different beliefs and thinking. Worldwide.[QUOTE=MzWiz;152102]Start easy with the logistics (housing, medical, school/education, whatnot), them try and move into the "soft" aspects; emotionsSounds great, and have thought about all of that.On my side I logic/lie to myself in thinking men are different then women so having 2-3 men under the same roof would be easier than having 2-3 women, and in some senses that may be true (please people, don't flame me for this, just call me naive and laugh, please, I like my dream even if in practice it may not hold together... but I don't know that yet as my reality isn't there yet)As someone still ignorant to all this, I defer to your experiences, however my personal opinion right now is that naturally women are going to get along better than men. But that could just be a projection of my own beliefs. I'd have to do further research, but from what I do know about the nature of Man and Women from my research into why we are different, I can say I believe that women getting along would be easier than men getting along. Women make babies and men protect their seed to fruition. That has been the historical role for man and woman, and jealousy is conducive to making that work, so naturally it's easier for women to get used to the concept of sharing than men who are wired to be possessive.But even then, I have to consider their children, their exs, their families, friends, coworkers...
Trying to get one relationship solid is hard enough, trying to get multiples under one roof in a long term growth oriented structure.... My ideal, yes, but I know it's going to be a heck of a lot of work/negotiation/compromise and as people are ever changing, just as everything is going well, life will send us another curve ball.... I'm fortunate to live in an area of the world where a kind of liberation is occuring and new concepts are being grasped more openly than I've found in the USA. There are a lot of idealists in the USA, well everywhere. Anyway, I'm in a good spot to push new ideas where I am.Think about it....... In your ideal situation, beyond sexual fantasiesThis isn't a need inside me to satisfy a sexual fantasy. I like to share affection and intimacy. For my that does not have to be penis vaagina, or even if it is, it doesn't have to be "sex". I just want to make that clear. I am not trying to find sexual promiscuity or fulfill some kink. This is about infinite love.what does it look/feel like.... And are these views/perceptions possible or just a great wet dream?Definitely possible, I'm just trying to figure out if I can live the life with my wife-to-be. It's scary stuff. I imagine gays who come out of the closet in marriages go through the same very difficult growth.

PolyPhonic

09-01-2012, 03:32 PM

If you have come across to your fiance the same way you have here I can see why she would feel threatened. When I was reading your original post it was sounding very much as though you view women as playthings. I imagine in her mind she's wondering if she is one of those playthings.No, I don't come across that way with her. I can't. She is mostly spanish speaking. Every word is carefully chosen and if needed translated or said in different ways.

I was just connecting the dots for you guys. As long winded as the original post was, it's definitely abbreviated. I was just giving everyone the full range of what's being discussed, it doesn't mean any of it was not approached with sensitivity or better minced words.I would suggest for a while backing off from the whole idea of poly and focus on your fiance and tell her what's special about her, outside of the way she looks or how fabulous she is in bed. Then as you begin to reintroduce the idea of poly explain to her what you see in the other women that doesn't have anything to do with the way they look or how they might be able to satisfy you in bed. At this point it's probably going to take a long time to rebuild that trust with your fiancee. Set a time with her, maybe around the time of your child's first birthday, to reopen the poly discussion.Well it's a looming topic for her causing insecurity. So we have to talk about it now. I tried to put it on hold as the other poster recommended, but she brought it up on her own. I told her I didn't want or need to talk about it, but she just keeps talking about it.

But the good news is we've had a very nice discussion and we've reached a temporary compromise which in my mind is similar to putting the whole discussion on hold.

PolyPhonic

09-01-2012, 03:37 PM

I wish that the complications that arose from teh differences between people could be as simple as "I wish I could get her/him/them to think the way I think." But I think what I really was hoping people to help out with here, is ideas for compromise. That is what we're hoping to hear. Other living situations between mono/poly hetero relationships (I say "hetero" because it's the conservative living with the open minded that I am interested in hearing about how they get along, but if there are conservative gay, lesbian, or bi's, that is just as applicable and we'd like to hear about it).

I have shown my fiancee all these responses and my posting, and it's been very very helpful for her to know that there is a community out there of people who are trying to get along in similar situations.

She and I are now simply under the rainy cloud of "is this going to work out?". It's sad for both of us, and we just want to hear some solutions to try out or consider so that we have the tools to see if we can be happy together. Is poly that evolved yet? Is there guides on different lifestyle approaches and how to make them work? Like when you rent a U-Haul and they give you the pamphlet about "Moving" :)

GalaGirl

09-02-2012, 03:14 AM

I've read your thread. I'm not sure if you are after swinging or poly or some mixture or something.

1) Get a counselor. See if any do internet appts.

2) Postpone wedding date til you sort this out. Read more resources. There's all the books but quick online places are

www.morethantwo.com (http://www.morethantwo.com/)
serolynne.com (http://www.serolynne.com/polyamory.htm)

3) WHAT kind of relationship model are you after? There's as many ways to do poly as there are poly people. Here's just a few examples of models. (http://www.cat-and-dragon.com/stef/poly/Labriola/open.html) What is the model YOU want? Get clearer on that.

Is this married with some threesome swinging on the side? (She seems open to that)

Is this a polyfidelitious grouping of 4?

Is this a you guys are married but have Spice on the side? Like an "N"?
Something else?

4) Why are you trying to "peddle" or "sell" her on this? She is either up for it or not. Pressuring her is NOT NICE. Cut it out.

Have the discussion and ACCEPT THE RESULT.

Write out your wants, needs, and limits and relationship model(s) you are after.
She shows you her wants, needs, and limits and the relationship model(s) she is after.
If something lines up, and you can each accept that, great. That's the model you try on.
If it does NOT line up? Break up now and stop trying to force a square peg in a round hole.

It just isn't going to fly forced.

GalaGirl

sundevil

09-02-2012, 03:34 AM

Very much sounds to me like she's in a place of "OK, you had your fun playing about with this, but I'm done. It's poly or me, decide."

If that is in fact the case - pushing her, however gently, to reconsider will likely only make her dig in. Your watching shows about polyamory and trying to discuss/persuade her is going to make her feel pressured into doing something she's clearly not ready for, for whatever reason. I'd say your options are to drop it, at least for the time being, or risk losing her.

snowmelt

09-02-2012, 03:37 AM

PolyPhonic

09-02-2012, 03:59 PM

I've read your thread. I'm not sure if you are after swinging or poly or some mixture or something.Totally. It's all very viscous right now. However, if I had free reign to choose I feel best with living with at least two girls. Guys I know don't like living with girls, they prefer to play with them and not let them mess with their feng shui. That difference in sentiment right there is what tells me I am more interested in Poly than Swinging, because I prefer to live with and care for several women.1) Get a counselor. See if any do internet appts.Ah very cool, internet appointments. Yeah I bet if I do some research I can find some that do Skype. Great idea that I had not even thought of. Thanks.2) Postpone wedding date til you sort this out. Read more resources. There's all the books but quick online places are
www.morethantwo.com (http://www.morethantwo.com/)
serolynne.com (http://www.serolynne.com/polyamory.htm)Yep, good advice. Will check out those links (and bookmark them), thanks.3) WHAT kind of relationship model are you after? There's as many ways to do poly as there are poly people. Here's just a few examples of models. (http://www.cat-and-dragon.com/stef/poly/Labriola/open.html) What is the model YOU want? Get clearer on that.Ok, yes, very interested in seeing other models to see things I hadn't thought of or considered.
Is this married with some threesome swinging on the side? (She seems open to that)
Is this a polyfidelitious grouping of 4?
Is this a you guys are married but have Spice on the side? Like an "N"?
Something else?
Can you explain the "N" formation? Not quite picturing that. Looks like one person goes with the partner of another couple.4) Why are you trying to "peddle" or "sell" her on this? She is either up for it or not.Because she wanted to understand why I think that way, so along with educating her about different ideas I say "let's try it".Pressuring her is NOT NICE. Cut it out.Well I have no other choice at this point. I have changed/grown into this, and she either comes with me, learns to compromise or tolerate it, or we do have to go our separate ways. I'm not going to live my life like a mono anymore. I can't stand that model. I am a very adventurous person with a very open mind, very creative. The idea of NOT being able to enjoy anything we want to try in life (because my ideas for fun are stifled by her; while I support all her ideas for fun), causes me emotional pain. And so embracing me, is up to her.Have the discussion and ACCEPT THE RESULT.I'm not going to sacrifice myself, my one life to live, during the best years of my life and become a vision of someone I find uneventful and unfulfilled.
Write out your wants, needs, and limits and relationship model(s) you are after.
She shows you her wants, needs, and limits and the relationship model(s) she is after.
If something lines up, and you can each accept that, great. That's the model you try on.
If it does NOT line up? Break up now and stop trying to force a square peg in a round hole.

It just isn't going to fly forced.

GalaGirlOk great, it's great to hear your opinion. Opinions of those with clarity, experience, and wisdom are so valuable. I really appreciate your response. Thank you!

PolyPhonic

09-02-2012, 04:12 PM

You just came out of a marriage. Now you want to play. That's fine. Play. There is a reason it's called playing. No real commitment wanted. I read your post. I know you said you are willing to take care of "your girls". The overall tone of your post sounds more like you want your girls to take care of you on a rolling, overlapping basis. Commitment is about much more than paying the bills.

Don't get married. Play as much as you want to. When you're finished playing, take your head out of the clouds, come back to earth, take a breath, look around and reevaluate.I'm pretty positive it's more than that for me. I mean how does one know if they are "poly" versus a "player"/"swinger"? When does a player/swinger enter the myriad of possible relationship configurations or mindsets that are found in the universe of Poly? To me it's about that I want to become attached to multiple women, emotionally, at the same time, and I would like us all to enjoy each other's companionship together because I don't feel good excluding anyone when we could all just get along if we have an open mind. And to me, it's not at all about sex. It's about intimacy. Sex to me is something you do for enjoyment. Intimacy is for when you project feelings of love and compassion. I am interested in being in love with multiple women. I think that is Poly and not "playing". Although I may be a poly virgin, but I'm pretty sure that what I see and read about Poly lines up with what's inside me.

And the idea of "playing" like a player plays, is repulsive. I have never been that disrespectful to women. When I was dating several dozen woman in Los Angeles, I let them each know how many sexual partners I had going, how many were still only dating, and how I felt about each of them, and that I had room in my heart to get to know them as well as the other girls and that everyone knows my situation. At that time I was not aware that there was a philosophy (way of life) for co-existing. I heard about it, but so minimally that I thought it was just some part of an underground "weird" society or something polygamists who wind up going to jail do. I never understood there was a respectful model out there, or I would have whole heartedly embraced it. It just so happens to be my journey, to have learned about it during the process of being engaged to a girl and almost getting married. An unfortunate coincidence for her because she seems to prefer mono, though if she can slowly adapt, than she and I can stay together forever. But she is Latina and there is a lot of jealousy, possessiveness, envy and catholic morals engrained into their moral code and beliefs all throughout their life, through friends, family, TV, society. I just happen to be so open minded to always question anything, no matter if it's family, TV, friends, society, religion, musical preferences, etc. I've always been a very tolerant open minded person.

snowmelt

09-02-2012, 04:47 PM

I'm pretty positive it's more than that for me. I mean how does one know if they are "poly" versus a "player"/"swinger"? Poly lines up with what's inside me.
You sound very sincere. The most important thing you can do is figure out who you are, and how you want to live. It sounds like you already know how important that is, and you're working on it.

Just make sure you only make commitments and promises you can keep.

When I was dating several dozen woman in Los Angeles
Since a dozen is 12, several dozen could be 48 or 60.

lovefromgirl

09-02-2012, 05:13 PM

And the idea of "playing" like a player plays, is repulsive. I have never been that disrespectful to women.

Bolding mine. I don't know if you realise what you're doing, but you use "girls" to describe the people you want to be intimate with throughout this thread. While you make it clear that you would like to take care of them, in the process you've also implied that they're not supposed to be fully-grown and able to take care of themselves. I'll be generous and assume that's not how you meant it, but the language you choose to describe them to us has its own context.

Perhaps you should choose your words just as carefully in English as you say you have to in Spanish.

-- A Woman

PolyPhonic

09-02-2012, 06:25 PM

You sound very sincere. The most important thing you can do is figure out who you are, and how you want to live. It sounds like you already know how important that is, and you're working on it.

Just make sure you only make commitments and promises you can keep.Thanks. You too.Since a dozen is 12, several dozen could be 48 or 60.40.

I once went on 3 different dates in one evening, each meaningful with different girls I was already dating (it wasn't for meet and greet, they were full on amorous dates).

And I used to party in Beverly Hills, go to a bunch of parties every night. LA's a fun town if you know how to tap into it.

snowmelt

09-02-2012, 06:51 PM

40
As I was writing my last reply, I was thinking to myself: "This guy might actually give me the number" - and you did. That's funny.

PolyPhonic

09-02-2012, 06:55 PM

As I was writing my last reply, I was thinking to myself: "This guy might actually give me the number" - and you did. That's funny.Hahaha, yeah it is, I took the opportunity to fill in the punch line properly. :)

GalaGirl

09-02-2012, 07:45 PM

Let me clarify. When I say have the conversation and ACCEPT THE RESULT? I mean stop pushing. Pointing her to resources to educate on poly is one thing. Then she can make her decision from a place of information and not ignorance if she wishes to read more.

Pushing "Let's try it!" when she has no enthusiasm or desire for it is another. Her body, heart, mind, soul BEING is HERS to share as she sees fit. NOT YOURS. So back off on that. You do not own her any more than she owns you.

If you have the conversation and she says she does NOT want to go there? Accept she does NOT want to go there with you.

And if you are at this place?

I have changed/grown into this, and she either comes with me, learns to compromise or tolerate it, or we do have to go our separate ways.

Then JUST END IT. Stop peddling the idea and stop peddling the "aw c'mon... give it a try!" It flat won't work. Don't be a pushy poly person.

End it fast and clean and ethically. Stop dragging out the misery for both of you. Move on toward future happiness instead of beating a dead horse.

It's cruel/unkind to keep on and on that way. Accept this is a basic mismatch and end it. See if you can be good exes and leave it at that.

GG

Vinccenzo

09-02-2012, 10:45 PM

You might benefit from figuring out just how large you want this compound to be and how it would need to be set up, living arrangements and whatnot. Keep
in mind that it won't just be your place if you are to be sincere about it. It will belong to all involved and need room to grow for the other partners these women might bring in and the children that can and likely will add to the population. Will it matter to you if not all the kids are your genetic material? What happens if one of your female partners has other partners and ends up pregnant by one of them and not you? Do they have to move out at that point?

There is much here that could be beautiful but a good bit of it probably hasn't even occurred to you yet. You speak only of you and her and her and her and her and her and kids and - well buddy it sounds like you're running on OOP standards and at that point it stops being about family and love and just ends up all about your wang. What's in it for the others at that point?

PolyPhonic

09-02-2012, 11:00 PM

Let me clarify. When I say have the conversation and ACCEPT THE RESULT? I mean stop pushing. Pointing her to resources to educate on poly is one thing. Then she can make her decision from a place of information and not ignorance if she wishes to read more.

Pushing "Let's try it!" when she has no enthusiasm or desire for it is another. Her body, heart, mind, soul BEING is HERS to share as she sees fit. NOT YOURS. So back off on that. You do not own her any more than she owns you.

If you have the conversation and she says she does NOT want to go there? Accept she does NOT want to go there with you.

And if you are at this place?

Then JUST END IT. Stop peddling the idea and stop peddling the "aw c'mon... give it a try!" It flat won't work. Don't be a push poly person.

End it fast and clean and ethically. Stop dragging out the misery for both of you. Move on toward future happiness instead of beating a dead horse.

It's cruel/unkind to keep on and on that way. Accept this is a basic mismatch and end it. See if you can be good exes and leave it at that.

GG
Thanks GG, I really appreciate your direct sensible wise words. Letting it sink in. Thank you.

snowmelt

09-03-2012, 12:32 AM

DarayTala

09-03-2012, 01:33 AM

If theres one thing I've learned from polyamory, and relationships in general, its that things don't usually go as planned. I understand your desires, when I started out I wanted nothing more than a big family of people, all loving one another (even if not physically involved) and all living in the same house and caring for each other. I'm lucky now to have the two wonderful partners that I do, and have seen my dream come true. It really wasn't that simple though. I've been with my fiance the whole time, but many other partners have come and gone. Many people who I've been close to, were not people my fiance got close to or opened up to. I am very lucky in my second partner. I would never have expected Lady and my fiance to become the dear friends they are, or for us to have become such a closely bonded family, but it did happen. I learned many times along the way that you can't force things. People are unpredictable, with very varied and vast needs and desires, and those you love may not have the same desires as you. Those who have the same desires, may not be the people you end up getting close to. And above all, people are ever changing and growing beings, and just because your love and desires for a certain lifestyle match up for a time, doesn't mean they always will.

I would strongly advise that you focus not on your eventual goal of a household of women, but on meeting individuals and growing close to them. I found that when I focused on just building healthy relationships, that the rest fell into place in time. Also, you need to realize that these are individuals. They may like some of what you want, but not other parts. They will possibly want to date each other or other people outside of the household. In time you might find that you want that as well, even if you may not feel that way now. They may want to be the ones who help take care of you, not just be taken care of. Some may not want children, or may already have children. Think all this through and take it into account. Are you willing to develop healthy relationships and give these hypothetical women the freedom to grow and love in the ways they choose, even if it may not fall in line with your plan? Can you compromise and give up some things for them, or change and negotiate with them? Because you will almost certainly have to if you want to make this work for you. You need honest and open communication, and the ability to compromise and work with a partner, not just be in charge and "take care of them". Can you do all that?

Also, as far as you soon to be wife, talk to her. Talk frankly about what you want and how important it is to you, and why it is so important. If she does not want the same things, either one or both of you need to compromise and change, or you should end things. Its hard, I know, but its better than you both trying to force yourselves into a relationship that can't satisfy either of your needs and goals in life.

I do hope you eventually find happiness and reach your goals and dreams.

PolyPhonic

09-03-2012, 04:11 AM

CielDuMatin

09-03-2012, 04:59 AM

What are you talking about? Absolutely not true. What did I say that made you think this? I'm sure I paraphrased something and it got taken in a different context or something, because that is completely not true about myself.Well, for one thing, in the other thread you referred to poly folk as "more evolved" than mono folk. I notice that while you've answered most other posts in that thread, you have avoided the one where I commented on that. That doesn't seem terribly "open-minded" to me, to be honest, as I wrote in that other thread.

Look, so you had what was turning into the potential for a threesome - your girl was into that. Then you started pushing the idea of you with a bunch of women, of whom she was one. She doesn't go for that idea - she liked the idea of the sexual freedom, but not the member of a harem. The more you tried to cajole her and persuade her into thinking the way you did, the more she backed off, killing any chances of the threesome.

I don't know the specifics of what went on - truth is a three-edged sword and all that. Whatever happened, she wants a monogamous relationship with you, and is making it very obvious to you that this isn't negotiable. You could respect those wishes, and not try to be "selling" her on the idea of your fantasy. If polyamory is *your* bottom line, then the two of you are quite simply not compatible.

You said that you want a place with you a a few "girls" that you could "take care of" - and you said that they could have outside relationships (presumably sexual) with men, because you are not the jealous type - what would happen if your current partner decided that she wanted a man to live with you and her? Would you be fine with that too? (This last is kind of academic, since she has said that she isn't interested in that style of relationship)

PolyPhonic

09-03-2012, 05:54 AM

I learned many times along the way that you can't force things. People are unpredictable, with very varied and vast needs and desires, and those you love may not have the same desires as you. Those who have the same desires, may not be the people you end up getting close to. And above all, people are ever changing and growing beings, and just because your love and desires for a certain lifestyle match up for a time, doesn't mean they always will.Absolutely. I agree. I'm not doing any pushing anymore, but on it's own my fiancee is making steps towards this and I'm sure that's because somewhere near the surface is the potential and that's probably what I've been sensing...a fissure. She surprised me tonight by telling me this "Unicorn" is going to spend the weekend with us so I just smiled and said "I like when I leave you to yourself." :) I would strongly advise that you focus not on your eventual goal of a household of women, but on meeting individuals and growing close to them. I found that when I focused on just building healthy relationships, that the rest fell into place in time.That is such great advice. And as we all know it's so hard to find those healthy individuals.Also, you need to realize that these are individuals. They may like some of what you want, but not other parts.Of course, yes. Although I am in my late thirties, I've gained a lot of relationship experience and I give the other person complete freedom. I may have tried to peddle ideas, but if they don't want it, that is their free choice.They will possibly want to date each other or other people outside of the household. In time you might find that you want that as well, even if you may not feel that way now. They may want to be the ones who help take care of you, not just be taken care of.Super good points. I've brainstormed about some of those possibilities, but for you to say it makes me see the constant amorphous structure that is "real people". Some may not want children, or may already have children.Yeah that's ok with me.Are you willing to develop healthy relationships and give these hypothetical women the freedom to grow and love in the ways they choose, even if it may not fall in line with your plan?Completely. That is in my plans yes. Exit strategies for them.Can you compromise and give up some things for them, or change and negotiate with them?Absolutely, if my core need(s) are being fulfilled than why not other less important things? Of course.You need honest and open communication, and the ability to compromise and work with a partner, not just be in charge and "take care of them". Can you do all that?I can compromise. And I'm also extremely patient with and tolerant of others. I think that is because I am very fulfilled and secure inside already.Also, as far as you soon to be wife, talk to her. Talk frankly about what you want and how important it is to you, and why it is so important. If she does not want the same things, either one or both of you need to compromise and change, or you should end things. Its hard, I know, but its better than you both trying to force yourselves into a relationship that can't satisfy either of your needs and goals in life.Ok yes, I just talked with her more as a matter of fact, as she asked me some more questions.

What was interesting was she wondered if she made me happy. She was apparently feeling like she isn't good enough for me. She asked "Don't I make you happy?" I said "Yes, you make me 100% happy with you. You are doing perfect. But honey, you can't have four boobies." That was my gentler way than saying "you don't have two pussies." But by the way, really my interest in another person is about affection and intimacy, not another pussy. I don't think with my penis. I have a big heart with what I believe to be limitless love, and it's sharing affection in a fun enjoyable way that I seek, without limits.

She seemed to understand and it calmed her nerves some. Her nerves flared up after she told me "I don't need anyone else to make me happy" and when I replied "Do you think that's what I think? That you are not enough to make me happy?" Despite how it reads here, it was actually a caring conversation, embracing each other in our cozy bed. A great way to talk softly about these intimate issues. And I'm skipping a lot of it for this post.I do hope you eventually find happiness and reach your goals and dreams.Thanks. Living it!

PolyPhonic

09-03-2012, 06:05 AM

Bolding mine. I don't know if you realise what you're doing, but you use "girls" to describe the people you want to be intimate with throughout this thread. While you make it clear that you would like to take care of them, in the process you've also implied that they're not supposed to be fully-grown and able to take care of themselves. I'll be generous and assume that's not how you meant it, but the language you choose to describe them to us has its own context.

Perhaps you should choose your words just as carefully in English as you say you have to in Spanish.

-- A WomanThanks! I never thought of that. I will spend some time in self reflection on that, and see if there is something to that! Really appreciate you noticing that.

My thoughts right now on that are that I just mean I would find "girls" who are more into not working, enjoying life, having fun, and seeking out each day as a new adventure. And so, I would support them so they could enjoy that. It's more of a gift than me being a rescuer.

But I will think about that... deeply.

PolyPhonic

09-03-2012, 06:22 AM

Well, for one thing, in the other thread you referred to poly folk as "more evolved" than mono folk. I notice that while you've answered most other posts in that thread, you have avoided the one where I commented on that. That doesn't seem terribly "open-minded" to me, to be honest, as I wrote in that other thread.Ohhhhhhh, so this has just been a projection of your own frustration with me not giving that attention and now spiraling it into that I am avoiding it because I either disagree or can't see the other way.

No no, I intend to answer that soon. I have it in my email, I have just been doing a lot of things today. I did a photo shoot with some models at the beach, and I've been processing photos, plus dinner, putting my kids to bed, etc. Don't worry, I'm going to respond to that.Look, so you had what was turning into the potential for a threesome - your girl was into that.Right.Then you started pushing the idea of you with a bunch of women, of whom she was one.Ok and I think it's worthy of mentioning now again that that "line" was a light sprinkle of something I mentioned, like as I said before it's not what I'm actually trying to sell to her.She doesn't go for that idea - she liked the idea of the sexual freedom, but not the member of a harem.Well, not completely as you describe. We really just let the harem idea go, and have been talking about more grounded ideas.The more you tried to cajole her and persuade her into thinking the way you did, the more she backed off, killing any chances of the threesome.Yep, that is true. I also noticed that while she is feeling emotional, the idea of any of this becomes very negative to her. But taking the advice of the initial respondant to my initial post, giving her some time to get out of the "nervous breakdown" mode, and then discussing when it can be done more naturally, she again becomes amenable to the threesome adventure.I don't know the specifics of what went on - truth is a three-edged sword and all that. Whatever happened, she wants a monogamous relationship with you, and is making it very obvious to you that this isn't negotiable. You could respect those wishes, and not try to be "selling" her on the idea of your fantasy. If polyamory is *your* bottom line, then the two of you are quite simply not compatible.Ok, true. Although this growth has flowered during my relationship with her. It was just a bud before that for 2 years or more. So I have not had an opportunity to be poly yet. If I was not in a monogamous relationship I could see if poly is right for me. Though I've gone on record here saying that I'm fairly certain I am a poly, I am still a poly virgin and I think it's a good idea for my fiancee and I to do whatever she is comfortable with allowing me, so I can see how it sits with me, and her. I hear this kind of "trying" destroys relationships. But nothing less is possible right now. And she is interested in this "Unicorn" on her own accord, more than I am actually (I have a dozen other girls who I give as much weight, I'm not targeting this other girl), so I think if we can be comfortable experimenting with that, than I can start to feel out how important it is to me without it being conjecture.You said that you want a place with you a a few "girls" that you could "take care of" - and you said that they could have outside relationships (presumably sexual) with men, because you are not the jealous type - what would happen if your current partner decided that she wanted a man to live with you and her? Would you be fine with that too? (This last is kind of academic, since she has said that she isn't interested in that style of relationship)Right. Nah, I'm not into male energy. I like being around women. It's not just sexual. I was raised by a single mother, and was a momma's boy for most of my 20s. I went through a lot to grow out of that, and be healthy, but I still have no interest in football, baseball, sports, hitting the gym, drinking beer, etc. I like being romantic, I like being affectionate, I like talking about feelings and relationships, I could go on and on, but the point is I like having relationships with women and by that I mean friendships, time spent, etc. Obviously I can stick my penis in them and make babies etc, but that's NOT why I like them more than men. So for me, we're talking girls only. I'm ok with playing with other guys in the same session, but not living together. But hey, you never know.

CielDuMatin

09-03-2012, 06:34 AM

Ohhhhhhh, so this has just been a projection of your own frustration with me not giving that attention and now spiraling it into that I am avoiding it because I either disagree or can't see the other way.Er... it was snowmelt, not me, that asked the question here - I was merely giving an opinion based on your responses in the other thread.

Nah, I'm not into male energy. I like being around women. It's not just sexual. I was raised by a single mother, and was a momma's boy for most of my 20s. I went through a lot to grow out of that, and be healthy, but I still have no interest in football, baseball, sports, hitting the gym, drinking beer, etc. I like being romantic, I like being affectionate, I like talking about feelings and relationships, I could go on and on, but the point is I like having relationships with women and by that I mean friendships, time spent, etc. Obviously I can stick my penis in them and make babies etc, but that's NOT why I like them more than men. So for me, we're talking girls only. I'm ok with playing with other guys in the same session, but not living together. But hey, you never know.
Yes, yes, I understand what YOU want - I am asking what happens if one (or more) of the women that you have set up a home with want to include a man in the home, too - you don't have to do anything with them, but they would like him to live in the house with you. What if it is what*they* want - is that ok with you?

BoringGuy

09-03-2012, 12:17 PM

OP, I'm sorry to interrupt, but the question begs to be asked:

You say you have 6 kids. One of them is the 4-month-old baby from this current fiancée/wife/wife-to-be/babbymomma who speaks/understands very little English.

You referred to putting your kids (plural) to bed. That tells us that you have at least one child from at least one other woman living with you, in addition to the new baby and its mother.

Where are all the other children and/or mothers of all your other children? How do THEY fit in with the hopes and dreams which you have shared with us here on this forum? How would you expect all these incoming "girls" to relate to your ALREADY EXISTING children and babbymommas?

I am guessing that you have a whole chapter in your notebook (or perhaps even a separate notebook) dedicated to addressing the logistics and other aspects of this dynamic. I'm sure you've thought about it in great detail and have it all planned out.

I bet I'm not the only person here who is curious about this. I look forward to finding out your answer. :)

PolyPhonic

09-03-2012, 06:18 PM

You say you have 6 kids. Where are all the other children and/or mothers of all your other children? How do THEY fit in with the hopes and dreams which you have shared with us here on this forum? How would you expect all these incoming "girls" to relate to your ALREADY EXISTING children and babbymommas?Hey, thanks for noticing :) Ok, here's the whole love arc of my life and how children factor in:

Finding Love Accidentally:
I was a late bloomer. I lost my virginity when I was 21. That's not because I wasn't desirable, it was because since I was 9 years old I would sit in front of my computers and musical keyboards and create music non-stop. I was dedicated to my craft of writing music for movies. In fact as desirability goes, the night I lost my virginity was to a woman I was helping with her IKEA furniture, and she came on to me quite strongly. I thought she was married but she told me she broke up. I did find her cute, but I was raised to be respectful and she was not a candidate for feelings for me. But when she said it was ok by passionately attacking me, I went along for the experience. We were together for 9 months and traveled Europe together. It was a great first sexual relationship. Later I would learn that she was a nymphomaniac, and that it wasn't normal for a woman to want to have sex 3-6 times per day. Suffice to say I was happy. We broke up and I again continued to focus on my music career.

I wanted sex after that though, and I was very much a romantic so I craved a partner again. So I was courting girls, but I was not in the dating scene. I wasn't searching. I was just open and able. I would chat up girls who worked in the building I was in. I had no skills in picking up girls.

I got a call one night from a woman who moved to LA and wanted to ask me questions about my career field because she was thinking about pursuing the same. I asked if she had any friends here, she said no, so I said "let's meet up". We coordinated what in retrospect became a first date, and I adored her at first sight. Since I was simply open and able, any attention at this point felt right. I would learn in 10+ years from then that it's also important to think about your needs. However, she liked me and I liked her and we decided to spend the rest of our lives together. And so...

1st Engagement and Marriage:
I was married for 10 years, the first 3 of which felt solid, then 4 more years of counseling and than 3 years of living together but figuring out what the hell I was supposed to do because I didn't believe in divorce, I believed in working things out and holding to your original promises. I was fortunate in the end to hear that she admitted she never really loved me, that she married me to see if she would fall in love with me. What a sigh of relief that was for me because it meant I wouldn't break any of my promises to divorce. We had 3 kids together (probably the three times we had sex, lol). She was super tantric, a yoga person, very spiritual, and that really got in the way of enjoying our physical relationship. So our relationship was very much a meta-relationship, a superlayer relationship created out of meeting of concepts. But I craved a directly connected relationship not one based on spirituality. Something human.

Separation:
When we separated (pre official stamped divorce), I said I wanted the kids and the house, and she said ok. In retrospect now, that was probably due to some guilt on her part, but her own family disowned her and everyone thought she abandoned her children. That was not the case at all. Our separation was amicable, we were both level headed people and we never even said the word jealous in our relationship. I never knew of the concept. Point is, she was still a good mom, I just gave her the opportunity to get on her feet, have time to build some career opportunities, and the kids visited her every other weekend.

Dating:
I proceeded to care for my kids for 4 straight years in that arrangement, while starting up with online dating, going to nightclubs, parties, events, mingling. It became necessary to hire a live-in nanny. I screwed that up when I thought it would be a great idea to find a young attractive one, and that turned into disaster where I had to buy her a plane ticket back home one night in a deal to ward off pressing charges. Not that I ever touched her, but lines had been crossed and she wouldn't have any of it (rightly so).

I got another Nanny, Japanese, very respectful, but also cute, adventurous (sky jumper) and flirtatious (oh no). So I set a big boundary line with her in my mind and never looked back or thought about crossing it. I trained myself to keep her off limits.

I continued on the dating scene, formed a great non-sexual but intimate relationship with a girl, and that lasted for 14 months and was only ended because someone I met wanted to be exclusive.

During that time I was dating some girls mostly from online, but I was also meeting girls around LA having been mingling at parties and events and such. So I was getting out of my office, our of my hole, and starting to get a feel for real world dating, socializing and relationships.

My whole life it appears has been about opening up slowly.

Ok so, I befriended a woman who in Beverly Hills and Hollywood circles was seen as one of the 10s of the community. A gorgeous latina woman who basically liked to be arm candy to guys at parties.

We went to Vegas on a whim and hit it off, and I was thrilled to be in a relationship with such a beautiful, desired, female. After 1 month of dating, she asked if she could move in with me, and for me to cutoff the very close friendship (which was also intimate but non-sexual) with that girl I mentioned above. It was a tough decision, but I wasn't a secure person fully. I was confident, but I was probably only about 85% full when it came to my glass of self-esteem. So I said ok, and I chose the 10.

2nd Engagement:
We got engaged, and her kid from a previous marriage moved in with us. His father was a dead-beat so I put the kid in the best schools and he was the same age as my oldest son so they got along and went to the same schools. I payed for and cared for her child as my own.

Breakup of Engagement:
However it turned out this "10" was cheating on me and I didn't know it. After several times when she punched me, scratched me, threw things at me, and verbally abused me, I finally had to push her out of the house like a mule. While she was gone I found 7 engagement rings in a box in her closet and I called her other boyfriends and they had no idea she was cheating with all the other ones. Her "motis oparendi" was to create a fight about something, leave for a few days and come back saying she was all better after spending time with her mom.

So that was about 8 months of descending hell.

Dating Vengeance:
After that I started dating with a veangance. After learning about Hugh Hefner and how he started his poly concepts after his wife cheating on him, it makes me wonder if all my poly-ness is a reaction to women cheating on me. It's an intellectual thought I have, but I don't feel it's true. But one day I'll spend some time meditating on it.

Anyway, in what seemed to be a great liberation, I went on a tirade. I even specifically tried to date girls with the same name as her in the beginning so I could erase her as a stigma in my mind. That actually worked. As I gained lot's of relationship experience, I started to gain wisdom, confidence, and a better understanding of what man and women is all about.

Becoming Complete:
I really started to gain relationship clarity, learned to love myself, and to get in touch with not just what I was able to do, but what I wanted.

During this time I started to feel like I wanted to find a life partner again, because I preferred to have someone I was living with, rather than going out every couple of nights and having fun occasionally at home.

But through my wisdom on relationships I also felt hopeless that I would find a woman with the good standards I felt were necessary. I had high standards for a woman with a great heart.

Magic:
I fell in love with a friend of a friend who didn't speak a word of English, but through translation I could tell she had a beautiful heart. And she was beautiful physically, and she had a calm nature about her which really felt good after having had a tumultuous live-in partner last time.

We moved in together in 1 month (I still had my kids living with me at this time), and got pregnant on month 3. We decided to ditch LA and move to the Caribbean, to a beautiful island.

While here, I had a strong monogamous magnetism to her. However, the original promise of a threesome led me to start pointing out girls we could play with. This igniting the topic and feelings inside me.

We had our baby, and the rest I pretty much filled in in my other posts.

[B]Visitations
My original 3 kids now are on another arrangement. I asked my ex if she would mind taking care of them for a few years, taking a turn. So now the kids visit me for the summer each one for different lengths of time depending on school or not (so 2-4 months), plus Winter Break, and Thanksgiving and Spring breaks.

We had to leave her child behind in Los Angeles with his father, and while here in the Caribbean we were reunited with her daughter who she had left as a baby with her mom when she came to the USA.

The Poly "Bug"
But alas, all this is up in the air, because I have opened up bigger than monogamy itself. And this is a very new, virgin area for me and of course for her. But for me, it feels completely natural and lines up with how I was when I was a kid, my whole life. I am getting in touch with something that already existed inside.

PolyPhonic

09-03-2012, 06:36 PM

Er... it was snowmelt, not me, that asked the question here - I was merely giving an opinion based on your responses in the other thread.Oh haha. Ok sorry about that. :) Yes, yes, I understand what YOU want - I am asking what happens if one (or more) of the women that you have set up a home with want to include a man in the home, too - you don't have to do anything with them, but they would like him to live in the house with you. What if it is what*they* want - is that ok with you?Probably not. It would be rare that they find someone as mature as myself and I wouldn't want to de-stabilize what's already so hard to maintain. But if a real poly guru showed up, than yeah, no prob. But if it's still the case where I am the one as the most mature pillar of strength in the house, than I cannot have my place as that support system threatened. I have been with enough women to know how important it is to keep them in the zone. I'm very good at providing that for them. That is one of the attractions women have with me. It's not about being selfish, it's about being smart. Where I live there are no men like me. None. I know everyone on this island or at least each person's friend, or at least I am aware of anyone I haven't personally met. There are no men like me, or you, or anyone with such a developed conscience.

nycindie

09-03-2012, 06:42 PM

Omigosh, I just spit Diet Coke all over my keyboard!

PolyPhonic

09-03-2012, 06:46 PM

Omigosh, I just spit Diet Coke all over my keyboard!Hahahaha :) why? lol :D

MzWiz

09-03-2012, 07:11 PM

This interface needs a "like" button...... To NYCindie: Like :-)

We are all unique/special, but.... We are also all equals.....
A certain humility is a good thing.....

Phy

09-03-2012, 07:20 PM

To not keep you guessing evan: Because of the uniqueness of you and us all the poly-hood out there, I guess. Not that I want to convince you of the strangeness of such an idea (I read about some discussion going on in another thread already), but you won't find that many people on here who share your point of view in this regard.

Have to say that your life story is quite ... notable could be the right word *scratches head*. You have got your way of finding some extreme characters and persons for sure as it seems.

CielDuMatin

09-03-2012, 07:31 PM

Thanks for giving us more detail as to your story...

So it sounds like you goal is to set up a relationship with multiple women where you are the undisputed alpha male, and any other guy who is involved has to be inferior. You will look after "your girls" and allow them to not have to worry themselves about working for a living or even finding another man, because you will take care of their every need. If they choose to have sex with another man then that's ok, but if the involvement ever gets more committed, you have developed and "exit strategy" where she is essentially out of the relationship.

So, let's assume that you are living with two of "your girls" and you meet someone that you feel would fit well into the live-in family. Is this just the job of the alpha male (you) to decide, or do the other girls involve have some decision-making power?

Will you be fluid-bonded with your girls (i.e. no condoms)? Will you need to have any sort of say about other men who they choose to have sex with? Will you have rules about condom usage with them and other men?

Presumably the property that you would live in would be owned solely by you, yes?

BoringGuy

09-03-2012, 09:13 PM

Omigosh, I just spit Diet Coke all over my keyboard!

I did too, and I'm not even drinking Diet Coke.

The thing is, I'm glad evanevans has his very own Caribbean Island. a Boring Guy such as myself stands a much better chance of scoring with the females on the Mainland with him out of the way.

I say, go for it, evanevans. you deserve to be King of your own Castle, even if said Castle exists only in your own mind. Seriously. I may sound like I'm making fun of you, but I only want good things for you and nothing bad. Now go out there and make it happen! I don't think there is anything anybody on this forum can help you with that you can't figure out for yourself. And if your wife is too stupid to know a good thing when she has it, she deserves to go back to her family and a life devoid of a mature male provider and the free orgasms that accompany.

PolyPhonic

09-04-2012, 12:45 AM

You've put a lot of effort into explaining how open minded you are, but you have not been able to see your girlfriend's desire to be mono as a valid, healthy, honorable option for her. While claiming to be open minded, you have actually been very closed minded about the lifestyle choices other people make that are different from the one you have chosen for yourself. People who are truly open minded see the value in all lifestyle choices, including monogamy. They respect the lifestyle choices others make for themselves, even when different from their own.Well the reason I started this discussion was to try and help us be Mono/Poly. Outside of the help here, it's been next to impossible for me to create any usable middle ground for either of us. So we both respect each other's style, but she's trying to get me to be mono and I'm trying to tell her how it is that I think poly in an attempt to see if she could either:
1) tolerate it
2) figure out how to connect the dots in the middle (compromise)
3) embrace it
4) change
Neither of us is forcing either one to either side. That's just all the tools we have right now, to either not talk, or to try and convince the other to switch, or find middle ground. And we're both totally new to this, and she has the added disadvantage of not understanding it, whereas I've been through monogamy for almost 15 years but completely feel polyamorous and so can understand both mono and poly.

I'm getting some great advice here from you guys though and it's helping a lot. You are all helping us! Thanks so far...

PolyPhonic

09-04-2012, 12:54 AM

I say, go for it, evanevans. you deserve to be King of your own Castle, even if said Castle exists only in your own mind. Seriously. I may sound like I'm making fun of you, but I only want good things for you and nothing bad. Now go out there and make it happen! I don't think there is anything anybody on this forum can help you with that you can't figure out for yourself. And if your wife is too stupid to know a good thing when she has it, she deserves to go back to her family and a life devoid of a mature male provider and the free orgasms that accompany.Hahahahaha, man you are hilarious! I like it. And by the way, I kind of am in a castle. I live in a big house on top of a mountain, gated, with a full view from Belize to Nicaragua. It's the life (snorkeling, scuba diving, white sand beaches, parasailing, ziplining, monkeys, toucans, iguanas, parrots, jungle, fishing, resorts, restaurants, imported american food supermarkets, excellent healthcare at costs that would cause your dick to drop off in disbelief (like $6 to see a doctor and get medicine), and did I mention I have a live-in nanny, cook, housekeeper that mops, sweeps, three times a day, laundry, errands, cooks every meal, and takes care of the kids when necessary all for less than two bills a month? yep...I think good for you if you want to stay in America! More for me :) ).

PolyPhonic

09-04-2012, 01:07 AM

JaneQSmythe

09-04-2012, 01:16 AM

Hahahaha :) why? lol :D

I'm sorry, I just have to chime in at this point after biting my tongue for several posts and letting others do the talking.

*******

I take it that you actually can't see how patronizing and egotistical the post the NYCindie was responding to sounded...

It would be rare that they find someone as mature as myself...

I don't know that I would define someone as "mature" who seems to have the attitude that women are somehow like pets - feed them, pet them, take care of their material needs, and they will love you for it...and give you sex and threesomes. (The "pet"analogy breaks down at this point - please don't have sex with your pets!)

...where I am the one as the most mature pillar of strength in the house, than I cannot have my place as that support system threatened..

This seems reminiscent of a recent poster that seemed to think that all women just want to be "subs" to their dominant male ego. So, what you are saying that it is okay for some other male to assume "alpha" status as long as they are...
a real poly guru
If a "real poly guru" shows up then you are toast dude. Speaking for myself, I am almost hopeful that this happens...I would like to see the implosion of your psyche - I'm halfway tempted to fly down and try it for myself - 'cept I'm a girl. (True admission - this bi-girl LOVES the straight ladies... to be fair, they like me too...all the lovin' minus that male ego bullshit...)

I have been with enough women to know how important it is to keep them in the zone.

I don't know the women that you have been with or what this mysterious "zone" is that you feel the need to keep them in. Do you stun darts for this stunt?

I'm very good at providing that for them. That is one of the attractions women have with me.

Again, I don't know the women you have been with - and, if this is the impression that you have been left with, then I don't think that I want to. For myself, I am perfecting capable of providing for myself (and my two boys as the case may be)*- there are so many more important factors that might attract me to a man (or woman). "Providing for" me is so low on my list of priorities that it has never even registered...why would I need someone else for that?

JaneQ

PS. To those who object to me referring to MrS and Dude as "my two boys" - yes, I recognize the irony of using that phrase when people jump on guys, such as the OP, that use similar phrasing to refer to "their women". I contemplated changing my terminology to avoid ringing that bell...and decided against it. #1. They refer to themselves that way and it is a common meme in our relationship (for various amusing reasons). #2. I think it is useful for ganders such as the OP to see how it feels on the other foot (although, to be perfectly fair, they rarely see it....because of #3. There is not the long history of oppression that makes the OP's viewpoint so "natural" in the eyes of many mainstream persons - referring to "my boys" seems lighthearted and fun compared to the "ownership" model many men subscribe to in relation to "their women". (I'll stop now - as this post is too long already, and I have an essay's worth of ideas on this subject.)

PolyPhonic

09-04-2012, 01:37 AM

I'm sorry, I just have to chime in at this point after biting my tongue for several posts and letting others do the talking.It's ok. I knew someone would be too sensitive and be offended by my post. But that's not how I meant it. So we'll just have to rack it up to you having a different understanding about my words than I do. I'm sure everyone's not interested in us spending their evening trying to get you to be compassionate with me and understand where I'm really coming from. I see you are reactionary, that you think this is an alpha male thing (which it's not), have a problem with that, and want to express your disdain. Let's move on.

If you need to hear life experiences which prove to you that I am a good person and not what you hate, I can give them to you, you just need to let me know what you need to hear and I've got plenty of examples that you will like. But do it privately or in another thread. This thread is supposed to be helpful not just to me, but it could be for others, and you are not respecting that.

LovingRadiance

09-04-2012, 01:56 AM

(True admission - this bi-girl LOVES the straight ladies... to be fair, they like me too...all the lovin' minus that male ego bullshit)

LMFAO!
OMG! This made my day Jane. :)

BoringGuy

09-04-2012, 02:04 AM

It's ok. I knew someone would be too sensitive and be offended by my post. But that's not how I meant it. So we'll just have to rack it up to you having a different understanding about my words than I do. And I'[m not interested in boring everyone with trying to get you to be compassionate with me and understand where I'm really coming from. I see you are reactionary, think this is an alpha male thing (which it's not), have a problem with that, and want to express your disdain. Let's move on.

Allow me to translate: People are trying to tell you that you are full of yourself.

How about if YOU move on and the rest of us stay right where we are.

ETA: If you haven't gotten the answer to how to convince your wife blah blah etc. so she doesn't leave you in two weeks from anyone on here YET, you probably won't ever, so you might want to go look for that magic bullet on another part of the internet. Time is running out. It's already been about a week since you asked your question, so that means you only have one week or so left before she packs her bags and takes your 4-month old baby and leaves.

ETA: :rolleyes:

CielDuMatin

09-04-2012, 02:50 AM

OK, let me try a different tack for a moment.... and some of this may contain some over-generalizations....

Most of the poly women that I know wouldn't be interested in a setup like you describe. They need to feel empowered, to feel like they are seen as a true individual desires and personalities. I don't think that what you are trying to set up is particularly empowering - it's saying that you are the alpha male and that they don't need to worry their little heads about anything - you will take care of them.

I have met (and for a while lived in) a section of society who tends to contain women who are more willing to want this sort of thing - a man to keep them and buy them pretty things. They tend to be quite two-faced, not open about their feelings, and will often go behind the backs of any situation that doesn't suit them. Having an open and honest relationship with fully open communication will always be a massive challenge in a situation like this. I don't think that most of the tenets of poly are really going to apply in your ideal situation, because you are going to frequently be dealing with issues of cheating.

You also haven't yet answered some of my other questions about your "rules" of sex that I wrote about above.

So I think that even if you do manage to come to terms with your current partner you are really going to struggle to find the type of woman that you're going to need to really make this work as a poly relationship, especially on a small island. Most Caribbean islands (and I'm not sure which one you are on, since being able to see Belize *and* Nicaragua would put you in the middle of the ocean somewhere south-west of Jamaica with the ability to see about 500 miles so not sure quite how large your mountain is... :-) ) tend to be fairly conservative and religious, so you'd be looking at ex-pats as your companions.

I just can't see this working in any stable way for you, sorry.

BoringGuy

09-04-2012, 03:34 AM

JaneQSmythe

09-04-2012, 03:35 AM

It's ok. I knew someone would be too sensitive and be offended by my post. But that's not how I meant it. So we'll just have to rack it up to you having a different understanding about my words than I do. And I'[m not interested in boring everyone with trying to get you to be compassionate with me and understand where I'm really coming from. I see you are reactionary, think this is an alpha male thing (which it's not), have a problem with that, and want to express your disdain. Let's move on.

So then...you're not going to address any of the points that I made in my post then? Very well...we can "move on" with YOUR agenda, since you don't seem to care how anyone else interprets the "words" that you are attempting to use to communicate with us. (Which makes me extremely pessimistic that these "words" that you are using could be convincing to any of your current or potential paramours...)

Jane("Too-sensitive")Q

PS. If that's not "how you meant it" then perhaps you should use different words. No?

BoringGuy

09-04-2012, 03:41 AM

PolyPhonic

09-04-2012, 03:42 AM

Allow me to translate: People are trying to tell you that you are full of yourself.This thread is about me, for me, and at most someday for someone else in a similar spot. If you aren't interested, you move on. I'm here to discuss what's very important to two people on this earth, and this thread is for those who care to help, or reflect. If you want to express you don't care, I think you should just do so privately since that's not helpful to anyone needing help.

JaneQSmythe

09-04-2012, 03:42 AM

... Too bad females don't find intelligence as sexy as money and power...

Actually, some of us do. What need do I have of money and power? I have enough of that on my own. A man (or woman) that I can actually have an intelligent conversation with?...priceless! (And SOOOO rare...)

JaneQ

BoringGuy

09-04-2012, 03:44 AM

Time is running out.

BoringGuy

09-04-2012, 03:45 AM

Actually, some of us do. What need do I have of money and power? I have enough of that on my own. A man (or woman) that I can actually have an intelligent conversation with?...priceless!

JaneQ

You don't understand what women want.

GalaGirl

09-04-2012, 03:49 AM

@BoringGuy: Aye. I'm with JaneQ! I'll sign up for intelligent partner convo.

@Evan:

So did you talk to her yet and just ACCEPT HER ANSWER for where she comes down on the issue?

Cuz if she's not down with the poly thing in general? No amount of convincing or cajoling will change it. She has the RIGHT to seek the relationship shape that makes HER happiest. As do you.

Going deeper into what kind of polyship configuration or model y'all want to be in is moot and pointless if it just isn't a match up from the starting gate. Move it forward, man. Don't flog a dead horse. If you cannot be good partners together because you do not match up, try to be good exes then.

No more extra talk needed. YOU JUST DO NOT MATCH UP. There. That stage of talk is OVER.

Now you guys need to move the discussion forward toward how to protect and provide for your child you have together and have a smooth break up.

I'm very sorry if a break up is the best solution in your case. But if that is best for both, that is best for both. Move it forward with some grace and dignity then and take care of that kid!

Galagirl

JaneQSmythe

09-04-2012, 03:51 AM

Janie-q, don't you realize the OP is busy doing important things like attending photoshoots on caribbean island beaches and putting his kids to bed? He'll get around to your anti-alpha-male questions when he'a good and ready, not a moment before. Go get your husband to put you in the zone, or is he not enough of a poly guru or pillar of strength to do that? What the heck is your problem anyway. We're moving on now.

LMAO!

JaneQ

PS. Like your siggy - in medicine (and I am told the military) we have some rules - #1. Eat NOW! #2. Sleep NOW! (The implication is that you don't know when you have the chance to do so again...the next few rules aren't as intuitive if you aren't in medicine.)

BoringGuy

09-04-2012, 03:54 AM

Gala girl, you ovbiously are with janey because you don't know what women want either. All women want to live together and have the babies of the same man. They can be allowed to have sex with the other men and with each other, but in order to go with the other men, they each have to live on a different island where you can see belize and el salvador from your back yard, just like in alaska where sarah palin lives, but the island is part of antartica.

JaneQSmythe

09-04-2012, 03:55 AM

You don't understand what women want.

Apparently I am disqualified by the sole criteria of actually being a woman. Yes, THAT makes sense...:)

JaneQ

PolyPhonic

09-04-2012, 03:58 AM

So then...you're not going to address any of the points that I made in my post then? Very well...we can "move on" with YOUR agenda, since you don't seem to care how anyone else interprets the "words" that you are attempting to use to communicate with us. (Which makes me extremely pessimistic that these "words" that you are using could be convincing to any of your current or potential paramours...)

Jane("Too-sensitive")Q

PS. If that's not "how you meant it" then perhaps you should use different words. No?Ok you really need me to defend myself? Why do you need that? Just because you are offensive does not mean I owe you my defense. I'm perfectly happy with you being the kind of person who thinks they have me all figured out and can label and judge me. I'm not stupid, I read exactly how you see me. With what little you have to go on you think you have defined me. I have no problem that people like that are always going to be out there and will sometimes respond. Not everyone is important to my well being in the world, and people who cast me negative energy are really not worth me wasting my own energy working with. I don't need you to transform into someone who understands me. I don't have that need. I'm sure you have something valuable to offer me, but it's not worth accepting you to get to it. Feel free to continue with your method of communication, but I'm not interested in giving it any attention. I don't think I could be your friend in real life if this is how you behaved, and I think you should stop trying this tact in trying to get to know me and my situation better if you expect me to give you my time.

If you really need me to answer some of your points, if they are truly meant to help, I will. However I think you are just trying to satisfy your own need for a giggle at my expense.

But if you are being serious, if you think there is something you can help with, just let me know and I'll be glad to be completely objective about answering your questions. I don't know you, but I know I don't need to give what you wrote my attention, the way you wrote it.

BoringGuy

09-04-2012, 03:58 AM

If you keep buying it, i'll just keep making it.

LovingRadiance

09-04-2012, 04:02 AM

CdM - i love how you did that thing with the map and the ocean and all those islands and numbers and so on. I think that it's awesome when people like yourself and myself and other ordinary mortals can figure shit out. There ought to be some kind of award for that. Too bad females don't find intelligence as sexy as money and power. Don't you agree?

Oh Boring, don't underestimate us! :) It only took me a couple seconds to tell Ciel how awesome he is, for precisely that! There are plenty of us out there who find logic and intelligence unbelievably sexy and invigorating!

BoringGuy

09-04-2012, 04:02 AM

Ok you really need me to defend myself? Why do you need that? Just because you are offensive does not mean I owe you my defense. I'm perfectly happy with you being the kind of person who thinks they have me all figured out and can label and judge me. I'm not stupid, I read exactly how you see me. With what little you have to go on you think you have defined me. I have no problem that people like that are always going to be out there and will sometimes respond. Not everyone is important to my well being in the world, and people who cast me negative energy are really not worth me wasting my own energy working with. I don't need you to transform into someone who understands me. I don't have that need. I'm sure you have something valuable to offer me, but it's not worth accepting you to get to it. Feel free to continue with your method of communication, but I'm not interested in giving it any attention. I don't think I could be your friend in real life if this is how you behaved, and I think you should stop trying this tact in trying to get to know me and my situation better if you expect me to give you my time.

If you really need me to answer some of your points, if they are truly meant to help, I will. However I think you are just trying to satisfy your own need for a giggle at my expense.

But if you are being serious, if you think there is something you can help with, just let me know and I'll be glad to be completely objective about answering your questions. I don't know you, but I know I don't need to give what you wrote my attention, the way you wrote it.

EVAN nnnnn! Two WEEKS. Not two months, not two years. You better hurry up. Something is wrong with your wife and it's up to you to fix it.

Once upon a time, there was a whale called Ishmael, who happened to find a pair of scissors... And they lived happily ever after. Amen.

BoringGuy

09-04-2012, 04:04 AM

Oh Boring, don't underestimate us! :) It only took me a couple seconds to tell Ciel how awesome he is, for precisely that! There are plenty of us out there who find logic and intelligence unbelievably sexy and invigorating!

Another female with screwed up priorities. You of all people should know about antartica. Don't you and sarah palin share the same man?

nycindie

09-04-2012, 04:06 AM

Just because you are offensive . . .

Hoo boy, glad I put that soda down. This is a hilarious thread.

Troll?

BoringGuy

09-04-2012, 04:09 AM

Hoo boy, glad I put that soda down. Talk about the pot calling the kettle black, hahahaha. This is a hilarious thread.

Troll?

I have to go. My mother just made me a fried bologna and velveeta sandwich and if i don't eat it the monsters will get me.

LovingRadiance

09-04-2012, 04:10 AM

Naw, she's too..... Needy to share my men. Lol. She wants to be taken care of and have laws that decide what she can or can't do with her body. Not to mention, she's too possessive and immature for the level of poly-ness I require in my polyandry household.
Besides, I don't care for the view of Russia from her place and my boys have to be kept in the zone, which she's simply incapable of. ;p

CielDuMatin

09-04-2012, 04:11 AM

WhatHappened

09-04-2012, 04:17 AM

This thread is about me, for me, and at most someday for someone else in a similar spot. If you aren't interested, you move on. I'm here to discuss what's very important to two people on this earth, and this thread is for those who care to help, or reflect. If you want to express you don't care, I think you should just do so privately since that's not helpful to anyone needing help.

Interesting perspective. I'm quite capable of posting a thread that is about me and my issues, without announcing to the world that I'm the most mature woman any guy is ever going to find and I'd be smart to keep them in line myself rather than let another (apparently lesser) woman in to upset the balance and order that I alone can control. That's the kind of thing that would make someone say you're full of yourself...not that you posted a thread about yourself.

being able to see Belize *and* Nicaragua would put you in the middle of the ocean somewhere south-west of Jamaica with the ability to see about 500 miles so not sure quite how large your mountain is... :-)

This amazing island, from which both Belize and Nicaragua can be seen, and the incredible eyesight to see that far, and photo shoots with models and composing music and dating 40 women at a time in LA and six children lead me to believe this is an aspiring author, most definitely of fiction. I have to say, I'm entertained.

If the part about the girlfriend and poly is actually true, then you've been given the answer. She clearly doesn't want to do this. You clearly do. You're not a match. I hope she finds someone who is mature enough that he doesn't feel the need to tell everyone how mature and intelligent and in control and fantastic he is, and someone kind enough not to push her to do things she doesn't want to do. :(

BoringGuy

09-04-2012, 04:28 AM

Folks, if I could call for a time-out here - Evan came here with questions about his relationships. Some of us (me included) took exception to his language when he describes both his current situation, his take on poly and his intended poly goal.

But I think that we are starting to go overboard with the mockery, and I would like to ask us to maybe stop this.

Evan, I think that you have got answers to your questions - they weren't necessarily the ones that you were looking for, but I hope that some of the posts have helped in your thought processes. I think that you have a hard road ahead of you.

Is there anything more than you need to ask us about? Something that we may be able to help you with?

Cdm, you know how much respect i have for you as a poly guru and provider of women, but i just checked an atlas of central america. The OP should do the same next time. Belize and Nicaragua? Srsly? Couldn't evan have picked something like jamaica and honduras? At least then he might have lasted longer. Now his only hope is maybe you'll let him borrow your girls.

PolyPhonic

09-04-2012, 04:41 AM

OK, let me try a different tack for a moment.... and some of this may contain some over-generalizations....Sure...Most of the poly women that I know wouldn't be interested in a setup like you describe. They need to feel empowered, to feel like they are seen as a true individual desires and personalities.Um, yeah I don't have a problem with that. So I'm not sure where everyone is getting the idea that I am a male chauvinist. There has been a lot of talk about this "harem" concept, but that's not really what this post was even about. That might be a fantasy and I've got some ideas jotted down for the fun of it, but I think everyone is really focusing on that comment which I said a few times was just a fleeting thought that was thrown out there during a discussion once with my wife-to-be. I mentioned it so that the entire range of what had been spoken could be understood, but that was very minimally mentioned, and is not part of our discussions. Though I appreciate your knowledge and experience, and it might come in handy if I am not able to stay with her and I attempt to create my "nest".I don't think that what you are trying to set up is particularly empowering - it's saying that you are the alpha male and that they don't need to worry their little heads about anything - you will take care of them.Hey look, that's the base. They can rely on me. If they want to be more independent or even take care of me or others, great that's wonderful. But the idea is to start somewhere honorable and respectful.I have met (and for a while lived in) a section of society who tends to contain women who are more willing to want this sort of thing - a man to keep them and buy them pretty things. They tend to be quite two-faced, not open about their feelings, and will often go behind the backs of any situation that doesn't suit them.Absolutely. And as someone who knows how to spot someone like that in an instant, I already know how to steer clear of that. But you are absolutely right. I would have a hard time finding an open poly woman who wants to be "kept". I appreciate you being able to say such things with a tongue of respect, but even I get irked about such a situation. I'm not a possessive person, I am not interested in owning girls. I just want to offer them the fun life I can lead, together.Having an open and honest relationship with fully open communication will always be a massive challenge in a situation like this.Yes I see what you mean. It's a personality thing.I don't think that most of the tenets of poly are really going to apply in your ideal situationNo, they probably wouldn't. But I think I can cultivate it from impressionable girls.because you are going to frequently be dealing with issues of cheating.Ah well, that is to the point. However if guidelines as to their own sexual freedom are set out, than what might be considered cheating...won't be. Ok, so that'll have to be something I really carve out in the plan. I already have some ideas regarding STDs and BC and I'll need to work with other's ideas as they come into discussion.You also haven't yet answered some of my other questions about your "rules" of sex that I wrote about above.I'm open to working with the needs of the girls, and seeing what works for me and what doesn't. I'm new to this, so I am going in with an open mind and heart, and ready to adjust and learn along the way.So I think that even if you do manage to come to terms with your current partner you are really going to struggle to find the type of woman that you're going to need to really make this work as a poly relationship, especially on a small island.I see what you mean. But I've already got a "unicorn" cornered. If it wasn't for my fiancee being against moving someone in, she would probably already be living with us. She is super cool, hot, bi, and wants an intimate relationship with a man and a woman, and adores us. My fiancee unfortunately is being a cock-block to that vision, which I love and I'm sure many poly's love as well. Most Caribbean islands... (and I'm not sure which one you are on, since being able to see Belize *and* Nicaragua would put you in the middle of the ocean somewhere south-west of Jamaica with the ability to see about 500 miles so not sure quite how large your mountain is... :-) )Haha, well done. Without giving up too much more information, I can indeed see the tips of Belizean mountains near the border of Belize at the horizon on a very clear day with my 400x Telescope, and I can indeed see mountains just before the border of Nicaragua even with my 10x Binoculars. I could tell you the distances in a private message if you like. Nice detective work ;)...tend to be fairly conservative and religious, so you'd be looking at ex-pats as your companions.That's not the dynamic here though I hear you. This is not a conservative island at all. Think Cancun if you want to get in the right frame of mind.I just can't see this working in any stable way for you, sorry.Ok well that's good to know. I wouldn't want to throw everything away for a shot at something that's going to be frustrating and liek dealing with dynamite. But of course, I'm going to continue researching in the meantime, so I can get to the point where I have found a style which gives me the happiness I need as a person who is most likely poly oriented.

The "harem" castle thing is just a fantasy. If it can be done, I'll figure it out, but everyone can be rest assured that I would be doing it respectfully and safely and in the spirit of poly, not like a sex crazed male chauvinist which seems to be how everyone thinks I am. That's cool. I said the wrong things at some points here. I understand. I gave the wrong impression. It happens. But that is not what I am trying to do.

PolyPhonic

09-04-2012, 04:44 AM

Folks, if I could call for a time-out here - Evan came here with questions about his relationships. Some of us (me included) took exception to his language when he describes both his current situation, his take on poly and his intended poly goal.

But I think that we are starting to go overboard with the mockery, and I would like to ask us to maybe stop this.

Evan, I think that you have got answers to your questions - they weren't necessarily the ones that you were looking for, but I hope that some of the posts have helped in your thought processes. I think that you have a hard road ahead of you.

Is there anything more than you need to ask us about? Something that we may be able to help you with?Thanks. And that's ok. Let them be who they are. I appreciate you keeping the discussion on track for me since I am new hear and easily steamrolled. Best regards and until there are any new developments, I've gotten a lot out of this, and some members PM-ed me with some great links to check out, and they have indeed been very apropos to what I need to hear right now, what my fiancee and I need to hear right now. Thanks again.

JaneQSmythe

09-04-2012, 04:52 AM

Ok you really need me to defend myself? Why do you need that?

I don't need anything from you - I am am just a random stranger on the internet. You came here asking for a response and I gave one. You responded to my preamble and to nothing of the substance of my post - so I called you on it.

Just because you are offensive does not mean I owe you my defense.

I'm sorry if you found my genuine response to your post offensive. You owe me nothing (the random strangers on the internet thing...) I'm confused as to why you thing that I, personally, am offensive - you haven't met me. (Just as I have not met you - perhaps you are less offensive to ME in person - although I doubt it.)

I'm perfectly happy with you being the kind of person who thinks they have me all figured out and can label and judge me. I'm not stupid, I read exactly how you see me. With what little you have to go on you think you have defined me.

So, you can see "exactly" all the implications of how I see you based on a few words I have posted on an internet forum but I am not allowed to judge you based on the few words that you have posted on the same forum? Sorry (not really), you post a few lines of sexist drivel here, and then people respond to them. That is the nature of "teh intarwebz".

... Not everyone is important to my well being in the world, and people who cast me negative energy are really not worth me wasting my own energy working with.

Yes, I agree completely.

I don't need you to transform into someone who understands me. I don't have that need.

Thank Goodness!

I'm sure you have something valuable to offer me, but it's not worth accepting you to get to it. Feel free to continue with your method of communication, but I'm not interested in giving it any attention.

It's valuable... but not worth giving it any attention. THIS may actually be a hint as to the problems you have had with your relationships with other women.

I don't think I could be your friend in real life if this is how you behaved, and I think you should stop trying this tact in trying to get to know me and my situation better if you expect me to give you my time.

I don't expect anything from you. I have enough friends "in real life" (more than, as an INTJ, I need , in fact. I can assure you that, in RL, I am every bit as capable of calling "bullshit" as I am on the internet. My friends appreciate this...anyone who doesn't can feel free to NOT be my friend.

If you really need me to answer some of your points, if they are truly meant to help, I will. However I think you are just trying to satisfy your own need for a giggle at my expense.

But if you are being serious, if you think there is something you can help with, just let me know and I'll be glad to be completely objective about answering your questions. I don't know you, but I know I don't need to give what you wrote my attention, the way you wrote it.

I don't NEED anything from you. I was being serious (in my response to you - I did have a few giggles at your expense regarding your "understanding" of the female psyche). I don't know that I can help you because I think that your fundamental assumptions are flawed. Feel free to disregard my posts - they only represent ONE poly-bi-girl's opinion (and you wouldn't be interested in what poly-bi-girls think about your situation because you are only interested in mono-straight-boys right? - just kidding!)

JaneQ

redpepper

09-04-2012, 04:56 AM

Wow, I see several chauvinistic words and approaches in your last posts alone Evan.

WhatHappened

09-04-2012, 05:00 AM

But I've already got a "unicorn" cornered. If it wasn't for my fiancee being against moving someone in, she would probably already be living with us. She is super cool, hot, bi, and wants an intimate relationship with a man and a woman, and adores us. My fiancee unfortunately is being a cock-block to that vision.

:(

I sincerely hope that your fiance finds someone who treats her with love and respect, rather than regard her as a 'cock-block' standing in the way of his fun...er...vision.

:(

PolyPhonic

09-04-2012, 05:09 AM

PolyPhonic

09-04-2012, 05:11 AM

Wow, I see several chauvinistic words and approaches in your last posts alone Evan.Well that's not how I am. It'd be cool if you could point them out to me so I know what words or phrases I'm using that are coming across that way. If you wouldn't mind.

WhatHappened

09-04-2012, 05:21 AM

Well that's not how I am. It'd be cool if you could point them out to me so I know what words or phrases I'm using that are coming across that way. If you wouldn't mind.

Let's start with the utter disdain of referring to your fiancee, the woman you supposedly love, the mother of your child, as a 'cock-block.' Definition #1 of which is: someone who stops another from scoring sexually.

A guy whose goal is to score sexually might be considered a chauvinist. A guy whose description of a woman is summed up with, 'she's super cool, hot, and bi,' might be considered chauvinist.

Someone who is not a chauvinist might actually tell us something about why he likes her as a person--does she have a great sense of humor, does she have an interesting hobby, does she have a college degree or a job, has she overcome obstacles in life with grace and courage, what are her fears, hopes, dreams? Does she give to charity or help orphans or write music or sew really cool medieval costumes? Does she like to read and what makes her happy or sad?

Your whole description of her, by contrast, is that she's a hot bi babe who wants to get it on with you. And the woman you supposedly love, the mother of your child, is reduced to the 'cock-block' who's interfering in you getting laid by a hot bi babe.

PolyPhonic

09-04-2012, 05:24 AM

Interesting perspective. I'm quite capable of posting a thread that is about me and my issues, without announcing to the world that I'm the most mature woman any guy is ever going to findWow. Did I ever say that? No. Talk about you guys taking my words and running with it. I am far from the most mature man in the world. Far far far far from it. Go back and re-read what I wrote and try not to project your own opinions about what I'm saying into it and instead be a good listener.and I'd be smart to keep them in line myself rather than let another (apparently lesser) woman in to upset the balanceDid I ever say I wouldn't do that? No. Again, go back, reread, and stop projecting your own opinions on my statements. That is if you care about doing anything other than smack talking. I doubt you will be so humble as to say, "oh, ok. Let me go see" and than come back and apologize as appropriate or show some sensitivity to your offense.and order that I alone can control. That's the kind of thing that would make someone say you're full of yourself...not that you posted a thread about yourself.Those are things you are saying. Not things I said. I can see how you could think that. Don't get me wrong. But you are not being very careful with your jumping to conclusions in the midst of a post which happens to say someone is going through MAJOR problems. Maybe being open and poly has caused you to be immune about caring for someone in pain? Is that part of being poly? The idea being that you can just amorphously drift towards more agreeable less dramatic people? I hope I don't ever get that way.This amazing island, from which both Belize and Nicaragua can be seen, and the incredible eyesight to see that far, and photo shoots with models and composing music and dating 40 women at a time in LA and six children lead me to believe this is an aspiring author, most definitely of fiction. I have to say, I'm entertained.Haha. I liked that one. Fiction. That was cute. You can be funny. But don't walk into a room where someone is having chemotherapy and tell them a cancer joke ok?If the part about the girlfriend and poly is actually true, then you've been given the answer. She clearly doesn't want to do this. You clearly do. You're not a match. I hope she finds someone who is mature enough that he doesn't feel the need to tell everyone how mature and intelligent and in control and fantastic he is, and someone kind enough not to push her to do things she doesn't want to do. :(Man, what is with your attitude? Why do you have to put people down? I don't have any need whatsoever for those things and yet you are trying to make me out that way in front of your community. You are trying to humiliate me. Fortunately I have enough self-esteem to not need any of your approval or anyone else here to know what I'm about. You're a loose cannon.

WhatHappened

09-04-2012, 05:31 AM

You are correct: you did not use those exact words. I paraphrased and perhaps exaggerated. But you have certainly talked about how mature you are.

It seems to me a great number of people are getting a very different impression of you from who you say you are. I would suggest that perhaps if you are nothing at all like what is coming across, that you re-read your own words and see why people would be getting this impression. Perhaps you need to choose your own words more carefully.

Where is the attitude or putting someone down in saying that your girlfriend clearly does not want poly?

No, I'm not trying to humiliate you. I sincerely hope you will treat your girlfriend with more kindness than it appears to me, from your own words, that you are currently doing. I hope you will sincerely think about how many people have objected to your attitude, and consider why you may be rubbing so many people wrong.

LovingRadiance

09-04-2012, 05:33 AM

I dont know how to copy/paste in my phone.

But the way you write does suggest that you believe you have 'women' all figured out. Obviously, you don't or you wouldn't have started this post in the first place-but that is the way your writing reads.
Additionally, you say thinks like 'cock blocked' and that comes across as though you think having that other woman too is your god-given right and your fiance is just 'in the way'.
You write that you want to respect her and have what you want- something I do understand as I am poly, bf is mono. We agree to a number of boundries that keep his mono self 'safe and secure' and allow my poly self to exist without destroying him.
But, you also write as though you need to convince her and that isn't respecting her as an individual that does not have to accept a poly-mono dynamic.
Furthermore, the majority of what you have written suggests that women want and need to be taken care of, provided for and whatever 'kept in the zone' is. That is seriously disrespectful sounding. It sounds very chauvanist and marginalizing of women. Especially to women who are 'evolved' enough (no I dont subscribe to that evolution bs) to manage not only to care for and support themselves and their children, but to juggle multiple deep, meaningful, loving romantic relationships with men and women, simultaneously.

If you want sincere advice on how to communicate with a woman, it stands to reason that listening to what the women here are saying would be beneficial. Because so far, you have managed to offend the sensibilities of every single woman whose replied to you.
That suggests that either you are prone to relationships with women who are not as independent as the poly-women on this board OR you may be prone to offending women in rl OR you are really lacking in written communication skills.

Unfortunately, there is no way for any of us to know for sure. Unfortunately for you, it would appear that the end result is the majority assuming that you are sexist, chauvanistic and arrogant in real life.

PolyPhonic

09-04-2012, 05:36 AM

Let's start with the utter disdain of referring to your fiancee, the woman you supposedly love, the mother of your child, as a 'cock-block.' Definition #1 of which is: someone who stops another from scoring sexually.

A guy whose goal is to score sexually might be considered a chauvinist. A guy whose description of a woman is summed up with, 'she's super cool, hot, and bi,' might be considered chauvinist.

Someone who is not a chauvinist might actually tell us something about why he likes her as a person--does she have a great sense of humor, does she have an interesting hobby, does she have a college degree or a job, has she overcome obstacles in life with grace and courage, what are her fears, hopes, dreams? Does she give to charity or help orphans or write music or sew really cool medieval costumes? Does she like to read and what makes her happy or sad?

Your whole description of her, by contrast, is that she's a hot bi babe who wants to get it on with you. And the woman you supposedly love, the mother of your child, is reduced to the 'cock-block' who's interfering in you getting laid by a hot bi babe.Wow, you really like to just project your own opinions onto other's statements. First of all, when I said "cock-block", I was talking about her, meaning as a girl trying to hoard the action. Meaning, she was the one who wanted to have sex with the other girl and prevent me from having as much enjoyment I want with her. I am not even interested in sex with the other girl yet. She's really sweet, and attractive, and we really don't know her well enough yet for me to feel comfortable with more than just cuddling and seeing where it goes.

I'm entering your world here. I've just only learned of the concept of "Unicorn". And as far as I read, the definition on this very site, for everyone to be educated by is "Hot, Bi, Babe". So WTF is your problem with me describing her that way? This isn't my diary. I don't need to tell you how good of a cook she is, or that she likes flowers. I don't subscribe to all that Medieval Poetic Love stuff. That has caused so many problems in relationships over time, marriages, monogamy, etc. So why are you interested in all those romantic things? I don't know you, but I'm sensing you are a woman when you are trying to stake your interest in whether or not I feel a woman is valuable because she can sew.

HBB is supposed to be sufficiently attractive and noble enough in itself to communicate with this board. If I misunderstood that let me know. I think you are just trying to judge me and do some trash talk, see if you can validate your viewpoint. I think you have no intention of ever getting on my good side, or ever understanding me correctly, for fear that you might actually have to swallow your own words.

redpepper

09-04-2012, 05:37 AM

PolyPhonic

09-04-2012, 05:38 AM

PolyPhonic

09-04-2012, 05:52 AM

You are correct: you did not use those exact words. I paraphrased and perhaps exaggerated. But you have certainly talked about how mature you are.I have talked about how mature I am. Ok. Is there something wrong with that? Why did you need to flip off the handle because I know I am a mature person and when everyone is trying to figure me out, I go ahead and supply that for everyone so they have a better idea of what kind of person I am so they can help me out with what I need help with? I mean my god, you went insane. I'm telling you I am the most mature man on this island I am on. I can know that, because it's not that big of an island, I know everyone here, and ok, maybe there is a 70 year old man who gets all of life's lessons better than I do, but on this island, you aren't going to find someone more respectful towards women than myself who isn't a ingratiating doormat. I live in a central american country which is still very chauvinistic where the concept of women's lib is an echo from afar. I take offense by chauvinists. I grew up a momma's boy, and for many years I held women in higher regard than men, and I still probably do in many respects, but I at least try to make sure to treat men equally as well just to balance my momma boy complex.It seems to me a great number of people are getting a very different impression of you from who you say you are. I would suggest that perhaps if you are nothing at all like what is coming across, that you re-read your own words and see why people would be getting this impression. Perhaps you need to choose your own words more carefully.I do my best. I do re-read them. But I need to spend the time to be informative so I can get back rich answers. I can't sit in front of my computer for 6 hours writing the thesis statement of all these statement forum posts.Where is the attitude or putting someone down in saying that your girlfriend clearly does not want poly?No no, I really respect that comment of yours. To me you show me there that you are cutting to the heart of your own wisdom and giving me a bottom line answer. That is very helpful. It's some of the misconstruing that is the most difficult to deal with. These comments are great. It's clearly your opinion, you didn't tell me what I think, or tell me who I am. You voiced your opinion.No, I'm not trying to humiliate you.Well, I don't understand why you are going down this line than. Spending time judging me and posting your guesses as to who I am in front of everyone you know. Why is that necessary? I'm pretty sure that you were trying to humiliate me and I think if you dig beneath all of your motivations you will find that down there. I am certainly sensing it as a potential motivation for wasting time knocking someone down in public.I sincerely hope you will treat your girlfriend with more kindness than it appears to me,I do. I certainly do. I choose more radical words here since we are supposed to be more casual.from your own words, that you are currently doing. I hope you will sincerely think about how many people have objected to your attitude, and consider why you may be rubbing so many people wrong.Oh I do. Don't worry. It's not that there's something wrong with me. It just became a cavalcade of misunderstanding and backpeddling and defending against offensive people, over some minced words. I think it'd be best in the future if only the most sympathetic and compassionate people try and voice their opinions on posts that are clearly cries for help.

nycindie

09-04-2012, 05:59 AM

I'm entering your world here. I've just only learned of the concept of "Unicorn". And as far as I read, the definition on this very site, for everyone to be educated by is "Hot, Bi, Babe". So WTF is your problem with me describing her that way?

Um, hello. Calling someone a unicorn is not a compliment. The phrase "Hot Bi Babe," which is used to describe a unicorn can, of course, exist in real life but it is used tongue in cheek in this context. It is making fun of the m-f couples who only want that in their poly quest. It's a put-down, because a unicorn is mythical - therefore people who chase after unicorns, aka "unicorn hunters," are chasing a fantasy that is ridiculously unrealistic and nigh on impossible to find. If you do find a woman who wants to have a relationship with you both, please don't call her a unicorn. It's degrading. There are tons of thread here on the topic - you really should search this forum and do some reading before posting.

However, the fact remains, if what you have posted here is real and not just trolling, your gf is unlikely to comply. And it is abusive to think that you have to try and convince her to come around to what you want. She has a choice. You can live with it or walk away. Um, to your little make-believe harem, I suppose.

And you actually wonder why I spit out my soda before? Go re-read the post you wrote just before mine where I said that. Seriously, are you for real?

WhatHappened

09-04-2012, 06:01 AM

So WTF is your problem with me describing her that way? This isn't my diary. I don't need to tell you how good of a cook she is, or that she likes flowers. I don't subscribe to all that Medieval Poetic Love stuff. That has caused so many problems in relationships over time, marriages, monogamy, etc. So why are you interested in all those romantic things? I don't know you, but I'm sensing you are a woman when you are trying to stake your interest in whether or not I feel a woman is valuable because she can sew.

HBB is supposed to be sufficiently attractive and noble enough in itself to communicate with this board. If I misunderstood that let me know. I think you are just trying to judge me and do some trash talk, see if you can validate your viewpoint. I think you have no intention of ever getting on my good side, or ever understanding me correctly, for fear that you might actually have to swallow your own words.

If you want to talk about respecting people, try not saying WTF to them.

As to 'my problem,' you yourself asked why people would think you're a chauvinist.

I explained why. And you seem to have missed the point entirely. I did not say a woman is valuable because she can sew; nor did I expect you to feel that way. I was pointing out that you summed up a human being as a hot bi babe--ie, a sexy body--and that this is exactly the kind of thing that makes you appear chauvinistic. Take it or leave it.

What viewpoint is it you think I'm trying to validate?

redpepper

09-04-2012, 06:05 AM

Evan. You haven't spent enough time here, nor are you an expert on who is compassionate. I also doubt you know who is mature and who isn't on your island. Your presumptions get the better of you it seems.

Sometimes the hardest lessons are learned when one decides to look beyond why someone might repsond to in the way they do. You have some great opportunities here to look beyond your own thoughts and ideas because people are being blunt. Why not investigate why they might find what you say offensive? Listen to them rather than shut them out and write them off simply because you don't agree and don't feel comfortable with what they say.

PolyPhonic

09-04-2012, 06:12 AM

I suggest you do some reading here Evan. If you really want her to come around to your way then I suggest you change your attitude entirely. No one is owned by anyone. No one is controlled by anyone. You cannot MAKE her bend to your will by playing games to convince her. If that is what you believe then I would be greatly surprised that you get the harem you think you deserve.Right now all I think we can do, is get a threesome happening, and reflect on the feelings that come up afterwards, and go from there. The whole "harem" thing is just a far off fantasy. First I need to get down the rabbit hole. Then we see about staying or not.You are reminding me of an old poster who believed he had a harem in Vegas. Turned out he was owned. He was controlled. He couldn't get a firm grip on his "girls" yet fought us on it at ever turn that he actually did.Well the women in Vegas are far more experienced than the average bear. And many are cutthroat too.This occurred because wouldn't you know it the women had brains, feelings, didn't want to be told what to do and who to do it with. They actually discovered that being there as his play thing was not fun after awhile and they wanted to get on to a life that was their own. He was more owned by his own perspective than anything else. He wouldn't let it go. Like a dog with a bone.Very interesting food for thought (no pun intended :) )He lived a nightmare and would bring it here whenever it got too much for him. Whenever he had the urge to tell someone that one of his "girls" was a bitch for treating his gifts of a home, and someone to fuck with disrespect he'd be back to create threads about himself that only showed how self righteous and arrogant he was.Mmm yeah I don't want to become that guy.Not once did he realize that he created his own destiny by not honouring them as people in their own right. He simply barreled through every issue that came up and expected that they bend to his will and do as they were told.I expect a lot of guys going into Poly think it's a harem deal. But really, honestly, whatever I said, I do not think that way. I am very respectful to women and giving them their autonomy. I just want to provide for them to enable them. I am not interested in disabling them. That said, if they are with me, they are inside my ruleset. And if they break my ruleset, they are still free to not be with me. But my ruleset is not disabling, or demotivating, or devaluing, or abusive, or possessive. The windows are always open in the birdhouse of my dreams.I felt bad for him. I don't know how he ever faired in the end, but it looked like a sure call that he would end up lonely and alone and not know why.I'd be scared about retaliation if you treat them that way. I'd be concerned the guy "dissappeared". Lot of holes in the desert. ;)Not saying this is you Evan, but you sure are painting yourself that way.Ok, I trust your sincere point there. I will reflect on this.Whether you mean to or not. If I described how things are with you through relaying my story about the old poster and you are okay with that, then good on you.Oh my goodness, absolutely. Like I said before, I cannot be offended. I do try and point out to people when they are being offensive. But that's never because I am offended. It's because I'd like to help them learn how to not be so offensive. I'm cool.If you are concerned that this might be like you and want to make a change then you might be in the right place.Yes, I am concerned and I will write down the major points and do some discovery on them.People here have a good bit of experience and knowledge. Not only that they are gracious enough to share it.Completely, I know that everyone that I have rubbed the wrong way is valuable to me in many respects. And I respect their value. I just don't respect how some of them treated me. I know this is a new frontier, poly, but in time I would hope that we approach a public discussion forum like we do a family planning center. With sensitivity, and care. There can be a forum in here maybe for more sensitive discussions. Maybe that would be a good idea. Where blasting sincere posters is off limits for the sake of having neutral non-aggravating discussions.If you want to change your perspective then you'll have to face the firing squad a bit to get to the point where people understand that you see some error in your perspective.Fair enough. That's worth it.This is not YOUR thread. Its a public thread on the internet. It belongs to anyone that reads it and cares to write here.Of course. Everyone is welcome and free to read and post here. But I am also free and welcome to let them know if they are on topic, being offensive, not going to get a response from me, etc.You share this thread with everyone. Sure we can get back on track with your questions, but you'll have to give a bit too.Alright I know. But I'm not in a laughing mood so much. Just wasting time getting you guys to behave.If you don't see a reason to change your perspective and don't care what people think here and take what they say to heart, regardless of how they say it then I think it might be a difficult ride for you.I am completely level headed. I am getting something out of any person's personal wisdom. Absolutely.If you are nothing like the old poster, then please, try again to explain what you would like to have help with. I think most people are lost in the words you use. Please try again?I will definitely self-reflect. I totally know where you are coming from. I've been on the outside looking in before and I take your words to heart. Even if I don't feel I am like that person, I will give myself the benefit of the doubt of listening to you and triple checking myself, my intentions, my inner motivations, everything. I don't want to play with fire the wrong way.

My instincts are that I am poly. My intuition tells me that there are hundreds of thousands like me who had to go about this their own way like I am firstly attempting. But I am glad that this forum and good people like yourself are here on the net so that I can readjust, reflect, realign focuses, so that I can enrich the earth the way I feel in my heart I want to.

WhatHappened

09-04-2012, 06:13 AM

Evan, I'm not going to quote and debate everything you said in one of the other recent posts addressed to me. As someone else said, you have managed to offend every woman on this thread. You have had a number of people say bluntly you are coming off as arrogant and chauvinistic. Your response is to accuse people of flipping off the deep end. To tell people what their real motivations are.

If you are in pain, then please listen to the advice you're being given here.

And just a thought: People who repeatedly assure you how honest they are...usually aren't. People who repeatedly assure others they can be trusted...usually can't be. The same is true for maturity. It shows in actions so much so that a truly mature person would never even think to tell someone else that they are mature. Their own maturity is so much a part of them that they don't even think in those terms anymore, kwim?

Best of luck in your search for help.

Phy

09-04-2012, 06:14 AM

1. My response was directed to your question to NYCIndie where you asked what the funny thing was that made her spill her coke.

2. Words: I would strongly advice you to think about using the exact words you mean when describing your situation or thoughts. Words have meaning and socially accepted undertones for a reason. No one here is a mind reader and just because you take the liberty to use words you see fit in a more 'casual context' and think something in the back of your mind which would give them some different meaning or complete their meaning from your point of view, use different words or start to explain some more.

Because, if I take the much discussed example of a den/harem: Never ever would I get the notion of using a word like that to describe any kind of healthy poly relationship. You used it in a serious way, skimming through the options and possibilities that where in there for you. From my point of view: just the fact THAT you use something like this to voice yourself is kind of off putting. Same for cock-block or being the most mature person of a whole island (seriously man, how can anyone think that way? Let alone the fact that you said that there are even people you haven't met in person yet?) and so on. I bet this can be applied to any negative aspect the other posters pointed out and seemed therefore 'offensive' to you. This is written conversation, there are only words to get information about the subject someone is talking about. So choose them a bit more carefully, I would recommend.

3. Sorry if my language isn't that understandable for you, I am no native speaker. I hope this was clear enough this time and not confusing as well.

PolyPhonic

09-04-2012, 06:16 AM

If you want to talk about respecting people, try not saying WTF to them.You, are getting a rise, out of me. Don't talk to me the way you have been if you don't want frustrated incited responses. Take responsibility. Don't act blind to why I might be talking like that like you've been on vacation and have no idea what's going on.

LovingRadiance

09-04-2012, 06:25 AM

I answered your question to RP, seriously, sincerely and pointblankly. You disregard the post.

redpepper

09-04-2012, 06:28 AM

I think you quoted someone else as me somehow Evan.

I don't suggest going ahead and simply having a threesome. It usually doesn't work out to create healthy long term relationships based on love and partnership to just make people have threesomes. You've got a shit load of work to do with your gf before you can even get to the point where she will think about your loving another let alone having sex with another. If you want sex, maybe you should find some swingers and work on that with your gf.

WhatHappened

09-04-2012, 06:34 AM

You, are getting a rise, out of me. Don't talk to me the way you have been if you don't want frustrated incited responses. Take responsibility. Don't act blind to why I might be talking like that like you've been on vacation and have no idea what's going on.

I have not sworn at you once. I will not swear at you. Neither, to my knowledge, has anyone on this board sworn at you. You have the power to not swear at others. You asked why you might be coming across as a chauvinist and I told you why, in addition to explaining why you might come across as arrogant. I told you, exactly as many others have, that it appears you are pushing your girlfriend into something she's been very clear she Does. Not. Want. I'm sorry that incites you.

PolyPhonic

09-04-2012, 06:35 AM

Yeah much better English thanks!1. My response was directed to your question to NYCIndie where you asked what the funny thing was that made her spill her coke.Ohh, no I think she spit out her coke because maybe my response was so long? I have no idea. I asked why, but I didn't get an answer.2. Words: I would strongly advice you to think about using the exact words you mean when describing your situation or thoughts. Words have meaning and socially accepted undertones for a reason. No one here is a mind reader and just because you take the freedom to use words you see fit in a more 'casual context' and think something in the back of your mind which would give them some different meaning or complete their meaning from your point of view, use different words or start to explain some more.Of course. But mistakes will happen. But thanks, yes, very true.Because, if I take the much discussed example of a den/harem: Never ever would I get the notion of using a word like that to describe any kind of healthy poly relationship.Yeah well I am just such a virgin to the poly community. It was like in that movie the 40-year old Virgin, he'd be like "Yeah, let's totally go party. Let's whack it." He just had no idea why he was using the words he was using. I'm not that bad, but pretty close when trying to open up and describe my inner thoughts to you guys. I don't have the wide vocabulary. I kind of rely on you guys to help me tone it in the right direction. No one has actually supplied another word to use. On my own I came up with the idea of calling it a "Birdhouse with the windows open".You used it in a serious way, skimming through the options and possibilities that where in there for you.Yeah and I think that was also the sentiment from my fiancee in that moment, spiraling her to practical nervous breakdown. So maybe using that word here was helpful in describing the mood of the it. But I think everyone focused on that so way too heavily. It was not what my fiancee and I have been discussing at all. It was a fleeting moment. Albeit a strong notion. Of course I didn't say Harem to her. We just talked about living with more people.From my point of view: just the fact THAT you use something like this to voice yourself is kind of off putting. Same for cock-block or being the most mature person of a whole island (seriously man, how can anyone think that way? Let alone the fact that you said that there are even people you haven't met in person yet?) and so on.Are you aware of your own maturity levels? Do you have a lot of experience with people? I mean big city experience. I used to meet 300 people in one night. I was doing this 6 days a week. I had to print 1000s of business cards every week. I did this in Beverly Hills and Hollywood. I did this for years. I knew about 20% of the people in Beverly Hills my sidekick and I once figured. That's a lot in case you aren't sure. Beverly Hills has a lot of people in it. Anyway, I'm not from the boonies. I know people, personalities, and I know how they tick. I was a professional poker player for 2 years. In Beverly Hills I am far from the most mature person there. I know my place. And by mature I mean respectful towards other people, in friendships, in relationships, family, coworkers. Here on the forum, I am nowhere near mature. You guys see me as an infant. That's ok. I know my place. But when I tell you I am the most mature guy on this island, I really do mean it. Most guys here are wife beaters with machetes. The one's who are more mature, leave the island to create a more promising life. Yeah ok, I'm talking out of my ass somewhat, but it's not from an uneducated place. It's a very informed statement. You can hold me to it. You guys don't know me. My IQ. My wisdom. Just because I choose to talk from the hip, casually, doesn't mean I don't know what I'm talking about. But yeah, I take responsibility for talking in a way that makes me sound presumptuous and conceited. I'm sure when Einstein said he understood the Relativity of the Universe and told someone he didn't know about that in science, they thought he was an arrogant fool.I bet this can be applied to any negative aspect the other posters pointed out and seemed therefore 'offensive' to you. This is written conversation, there are only words to get information about the subject someone is talking about. So choose them a bit more carefully, I would recommend.Thanks.3. Sorry if my language isn't that understandable for you, I am no native speaker. I hope this was clear enough this time and not confusing as well.Perfect this time. Thank you! :)

PolyPhonic

09-04-2012, 06:40 AM

I have not sworn at you once. I will not swear at you. Neither, to my knowledge, has anyone on this board sworn at you. You have the power to not swear at others. You asked why you might be coming across as a chauvinist and I told you why, in addition to explaining why you might come across as arrogant. I told you, exactly as many others have, that it appears you are pushing your girlfriend into something she's been very clear she Does. Not. Want. I'm sorry that incites you.None of that is what was inciting me. You don't need to apologize for any of that. What was inciting to me was how you were taking my words and presuming negative things about me in front of others in what appeared to be some kind of endless quest for you to choose to belittle me in front of them.

Maybe I mis-understood, but if you need me to quote you I will.

redpepper

09-04-2012, 06:40 AM

Just wasting time getting you guys to behave.
Really? Read this back... It sounds controlling no? Or was this a joke?

lovefromgirl

09-04-2012, 06:47 AM

So I'm not sure where everyone is getting the idea that I am a male chauvinist.

Possibly the part where, in the very post I'm quoting, you state you're looking at impressionable girls for your arrangement? You can't be much younger than forty, and you're a man -- how old does a woman have to be to become a woman? And by that time, is she already too old for you?

I get the impression that you are independently wealthy. Is this wealth inherited? Earned? How are you maintaining your lifestyle?

CdM should know his island geography, what with his own travels. He has told me a lot about the "dynamic" in various places, and trust me, he's never had stories to tell about wild parties. Perhaps about expats; the English party boys on Ibiza (that would be my experience) are not representative of the people who live and work there all year. So who lives and works where you do? And what are their values?

Unless your potential lovers are orphans, they probably have families who will be raising their eyebrows at this. How do you plan to cope with your lovers' families?

I don't think your fiancée will stay long enough for any of this to become her problem. If she does, it might not be as your fiancée. Why go to all the trouble of planning a wedding? What does marriage offer each of you that cohabitation does not?

As for listening to the gurus: I am biased when it comes to CdM, but I can tell you that the people who are responding have it together. They know what this poly thing is. You might read some of the blogs for an idea as to how various members' relationships work, then ask them about their own experiences if those experiences resonate. You came here for advice. Accept that when you do come for advice, we're going to react as if you want to listen. nycindie isn't known for sugarcoating anything -- hell, neither am I, but I'm trying to be nice. Really and truly I am. Honey, not vinegar.

And I should probably not respond when my night meds kick in, either . . .

PolyPhonic

09-04-2012, 07:13 AM

This has got to be one of my favorite responses. I absolutely love your objectivity. Thank you deeply for responding. I really appreciate it. If possible in the future, may I simply private message you if I have a question requiring your sensibilities?The way you write does suggest that you believe you have 'women' all figured out.Ok, I do believe that, but I am also open to the fact that I have some things to learn. But to me the full range of women, I understand. There still are probably little details to fill in some of the spaces in understanding, but I do understand women. Well, mono women anyway.Obviously, you don't or you wouldn't have started this post in the first placeWell actually I started this because I have very little knowledge about the dynamics between Mono/Mono opening up to Mono/Poly and possibly becoming fully Poly, and it has nothing to do with women or men, but about what the combination of women and man can do in facing this "growth" situation and each has different ideas about what the other is thinking they are doing and is feeling threatened. That was the reason I posted this. Not because I needed to understand women. I do already.-but that is the way your writing reads. Additionally, you say things like 'cock blocked' and that comes across as though you think having that other woman too is your god-given right and your fiance is just 'in the way'.Yeah I guess that was a bad word to choose judging from the response. But I was just trying to find some way to describe how she is acting. I was going to say "pussy blocking" but because it had no context like we have now about the cock blocking, I thought that people would say "what's pussy blocking supposed to mean?" Turns out people here mince your words like it's a burning at the stake, so it probably doesn't matter what I say, if they don't like what they feel is my general sentiment they're against me.You write that you want to respect her and have what you want- something I do understand as I am poly, bf is mono. We agree to a number of boundries that keep his mono self 'safe and secure' and allow my poly self to exist without destroying him.God I would love to hear what they are!? This is the nuggets I was searching for. Cut to the chase please. Privately if you are comfortable to share but not in front of the group.But, you also write as though you need to convince her and that isn't respecting her as an individual that does not have to accept a poly-mono dynamic.No that was a miscommunication here. If I didn't say so, what I was trying to tell everyone here, was that I tried to do that, and that for her to try and understand me and my ideas better I was "peddling" her the concepts. That didn't mean it was for her to buy, it just meant it was for her to learn about by my own insistence. But I wasn't trying to convince her to become a poly, though I tried to see if she agreed with the philosophy during the "peddling" process, as I'm sure everyone in that situation does, they try and feel out their partner to see if they are open to the same thing or not. I just used the wrong words to describe it here I guess. People are very critical here. I don't know. Maybe it's just to me :) Furthermore, the majority of what you have written suggests that women want and need to be taken care of, provided forUh, no man. That is not what I intended to communicate. I was just saying that I am an honorable part of a partnership in that I would provide those things. It doesn't mean I need to like some demented mother teresa or something, lol. and whatever 'kept in the zone' is. That is seriously disrespectful sounding.Meaning, that when a women is becoming emotional, which because of their biology they can lose their logic, I am able to help them through whatever it is, and get them back to a place of reasoning. That is indeed a lot for people to swallow and women hate to hear that. But the science is out there. If you don't want to accept that, that's ok to me. I know what I know, and I believe it to be true, because I know it from my own experiences. It doesn't mean you can't think different and still be a respectful person to me, but the women I get involved with happen to always fit that science.It sounds very chauvanist and marginalizing of women. Especially to women who are 'evolved' enough (no I dont subscribe to that evolution bs) to manage not only to care for and support themselves and their children, but to juggle multiple deep, meaningful, loving romantic relationships with men and women, simultaneously.Yep, I totally understand that sounds chauvinist. It just happens to be one thing I do believe about the differences between man and woman. I also believe men have penises and women can make babies, and a few other biological differences that feminists can call me chauvinist over. But women who are not on a mission to be "equal" to men understand what I'm talking about. There are differences, and women lose their reasoning when they get emotionally filled up. I know feminists will disagree out of principle. But principle doesn't change science or statistics. They can do their research if they want to.If you want sincere advice on how to communicate with a woman, it stands to reason that listening to what the women here are saying would be beneficial. Because so far, you have managed to offend the sensibilities of every single woman whose replied to you.Yes, I guess I have. Maybe they all have complexes. I don't know. It is the real world, and people are just going to get freaked out by me. I just have to get used to that I guess.That suggests that either you are prone to relationships with women who are not as independent as the poly-women on this board Absolutely true.OR you may be prone to offending women in rlNot as prone as you would think, but it does happen yes.OR you are really lacking in written communication skills.Must be part of it.

So ALL THREE :)Unfortunately, there is no way for any of us to know for sure. Unfortunately for you, it would appear that the end result is the majority assuming that you are sexist, chauvanistic and arrogant in real life.Well that's just wonderful. I don't come across that way in real life...at least with women that have stayed around me to get to know me. But that might be a self-fulfilling result because maybe the women who disagree with me veer away from me. When I do speak viewpoints that don't agree with the viewpoints of feminism than I get knocked but that's only natural. You can't preach to the choir words from Black Sabbath.

PolyPhonic

09-04-2012, 07:16 AM

Possibly the part where, in the very post I'm quoting, you state you're looking at impressionable girls for your arrangement? You can't be much younger than forty, and you're a man -- how old does a woman have to be to become a woman? And by that time, is she already too old for you?

I get the impression that you are independently wealthy. Is this wealth inherited? Earned? How are you maintaining your lifestyle?

CdM should know his island geography, what with his own travels. He has told me a lot about the "dynamic" in various places, and trust me, he's never had stories to tell about wild parties. Perhaps about expats; the English party boys on Ibiza (that would be my experience) are not representative of the people who live and work there all year. So who lives and works where you do? And what are their values?

Unless your potential lovers are orphans, they probably have families who will be raising their eyebrows at this. How do you plan to cope with your lovers' families?

I don't think your fiancée will stay long enough for any of this to become her problem. If she does, it might not be as your fiancée. Why go to all the trouble of planning a wedding? What does marriage offer each of you that cohabitation does not?

As for listening to the gurus: I am biased when it comes to CdM, but I can tell you that the people who are responding have it together. They know what this poly thing is. You might read some of the blogs for an idea as to how various members' relationships work, then ask them about their own experiences if those experiences resonate. You came here for advice. Accept that when you do come for advice, we're going to react as if you want to listen. nycindie isn't known for sugarcoating anything -- hell, neither am I, but I'm trying to be nice. Really and truly I am. Honey, not vinegar.

And I should probably not respond when my night meds kick in, either . . .
Love your response. You are also very objective and direct. I really trust your foresight. I might just have to let her go. I'm thinking I will have to. It's probably the most respectful thing I could do. If she wants to come back she can, but the best thing would be to show I respect her own ideals and that I can honor them by letting her go and find a new path to enjoy them on.

About everyone having it together. I agree with you. I totally respect them on that level. But it's coming in some cases with a mountain of dung and flies. But still, I am desperate to become educated, so I still extract every bit of insightful helpful info I can from the smelly mountains of dung responses I've gotten.

LovingRadiance

09-04-2012, 07:20 AM

I had to freaking log in to my laptop-because trying to reply from my phone was ridiculous.
Do you have a lot of experience with people? I mean big city experience. I used to meet 300 people in one night. I was doing this 6 days a week. I had to print 1000s of business cards every week. I did this in Beverly Hills and Hollywood. I did this for years. I knew about 20% of the people in Beverly Hills my sidekick and I once figured. That's a lot in case you aren't sure. Beverly Hills has a lot of people in it. Anyway, I'm not from the boonies. I know people, personalities, and I know how they tick. I was a professional poker player for 2 years.

This would be one of those "eye rolling" series of statements that makes the whole thread seem utterly condescending and ridiculous.

Ok, so you KNOW PEOPLE in Hollywood-where it's normal for a marriage to last 72 hours and relationships to be based upon lies heaped upon lies heaped upon lies. Where "love" is synonymous with sex AND with "we were in a movie together-until of course a new film comes along and they are now in "love" with the lead in THAT film.

That might explain precisely why you can't figure out why everyone is offended at the way you degrade women through your comments and degrade the posters here though your comments.

You are right-NO ONE HERE KNOWS YOU.
But-if one wants to vent to a captive audience, they pay a counselor. When one posts on a public message board asking for advice-they generally can count on getting some very blunt, hard-edged responses. The interesting thing is-that its usually spot on for what it is about them that THE GENERAL PUBLIC is going to find offensive.
So, if you are looking to improve your already perfected by Hollywood social skills-you've come to the right place. You may find it VERY helpful in your personal relationships.
If on the other hand you were looking for people to pussyfoot around the questions and answers they give-you are in the wrong place and at the wrong time.

SINCERE answer to your ORIGINAL POST:
You are trying to educate a mono person about what you need as a poly-GO READ MonoVCPHG's posts. There isn't another poster on here who has written SO THOROUGHLY from a mono perspective-exactly what it is that a mono person thinks and feels and needs in order to accept and even thrive in a mono-poly dynamic.
If you read through his posts, and especially the threads he started, you will find a treasure trove of information on how to communicate to mono's in a way that they can accept and understand.

LovingRadiance

09-04-2012, 07:22 AM

I have to go pick up my father in law at the airport. So, I have to go.

But yes, you may private message me if you want.

I haven't read your reply to what I wrote-I did see that you replied.

I will be back online again tomorrow I am sure.

Additionally, if you want to read any of my thoughts regarding poly and dealing with mono partners-feel free to peruse my blog. There's a wealth of info there-but I stand by my assertation-no one that I am aware of in 3 years has written as much as Mono regarding the hows and whens of communicating lovingly to a mono the needs of a poly.
Please-go read his posts.

PolyPhonic

09-04-2012, 07:35 AM

Unless your potential lovers are orphans, they probably have families who will be raising their eyebrows at this. How do you plan to cope with your lovers' families?Ah. Just got the "orphan" insinuation now. Meaning, don't I think their fathers will come and kill me? lol

I'll have to be sure to screen for amenable relatives or yeah, orphans. Here most of the girls/women are "pseudo orphans" because they are one of 7 sisters and brothers, and their parents are just barely scraping by. The prospect of living in a home they're daughter can thrive in is an upgrade they'll approve of, especially if they're daughter says it will make her happy.

And yeah I'm only talking about legal women. Some I know of already have a child, or two, or three, (ages 18-27) and would very much be interested in a loving affectionate fun financially supportive relationship in a house filled with "friends".

PolyPhonic

09-04-2012, 07:45 AM

Really? Read this back... It sounds controlling no? Or was this a joke?Not a joke. You(a person here or anywhere really) are not welcome to be insulting to me or to be offensive to me or other members of this forum or any people. If you do that, I need to do what I can to make sure you come to realize that is inappropriate and you should be careful about doing so in the future. In this case here, I am talking to you guys about it in the hopes you will be more respectful in the future. But no, it's not meant to be "controlling" other than you need to learn your boundaries and when you are likely to be offending someone.

PolyPhonic

09-04-2012, 07:50 AM

Hey, gotta hit the hay. It's gettin' late. But I like your response here a lot. Every part of it. I want to let you know my thoughts, but I'll do tha tin the morning. Thanks and have a good night. (you're gettin' through to me)I had to freaking log in to my laptop-because trying to reply from my phone was ridiculous.

This would be one of those "eye rolling" series of statements that makes the whole thread seem utterly condescending and ridiculous.

Ok, so you KNOW PEOPLE in Hollywood-where it's normal for a marriage to last 72 hours and relationships to be based upon lies heaped upon lies heaped upon lies. Where "love" is synonymous with sex AND with "we were in a movie together-until of course a new film comes along and they are now in "love" with the lead in THAT film.

That might explain precisely why you can't figure out why everyone is offended at the way you degrade women through your comments and degrade the posters here though your comments.

You are right-NO ONE HERE KNOWS YOU.
But-if one wants to vent to a captive audience, they pay a counselor. When one posts on a public message board asking for advice-they generally can count on getting some very blunt, hard-edged responses. The interesting thing is-that its usually spot on for what it is about them that THE GENERAL PUBLIC is going to find offensive.
So, if you are looking to improve your already perfected by Hollywood social skills-you've come to the right place. You may find it VERY helpful in your personal relationships.
If on the other hand you were looking for people to pussyfoot around the questions and answers they give-you are in the wrong place and at the wrong time.

SINCERE answer to your ORIGINAL POST:
You are trying to educate a mono person about what you need as a poly-GO READ MonoVCPHG's posts. There isn't another poster on here who has written SO THOROUGHLY from a mono perspective-exactly what it is that a mono person thinks and feels and needs in order to accept and even thrive in a mono-poly dynamic.
If you read through his posts, and especially the threads he started, you will find a treasure trove of information on how to communicate to mono's in a way that they can accept and understand.

Emm

09-04-2012, 09:58 AM

Troll?Yep. And he's trying (with some degree of success, sadly) to neg-hit the entire forum.

CielDuMatin

09-04-2012, 12:22 PM

I just want to provide for them to enable them. I am not interested in disabling them. That said, if they are with me, they are inside my ruleset. And if they break my ruleset, they are still free to not be with me. But my ruleset is not disabling, or demotivating, or devaluing, or abusive, or possessive. OK, here's something else that I would suggest you think about.

Several things that you have posted about what you want out of your relationships have to do with you setting up a place according to your rules - you will work out what BC should be used, you will not allow other men to live there, but you will allow your women to have outside relationship, etc. - if they don't like them they can leave. This sounds a lot like "my way or the highway".

In order to be respectful of the people with whom you have a relationship, the "ruleset" should be something negotiated between you - because even though they may not have it all written down and thought-out, everyone has a ruleset, or set of boundaries.

So this may well be the language you are using here - in which case, maybe you could explain more, but this comes across as "I am going to make the rules. Everyone has to sign on to my rules. They will be happy with my rules, or they can leave." The undertone (without you explicitly saying it) is that their rules don't matter, because yours trumps all of them.

Do you see how this could come across?

(Oh and I think Honduras is usually considered Central America, not South America :-) )

PolyPhonic

09-04-2012, 03:55 PM

Several things that you have posted about what you want out of your relationships have to do with you setting up a place according to your rules - you will work out what BC should be used, you will not allow other men to live there, but you will allow your women to have outside relationship, etc. - if they don't like them they can leave. This sounds a lot like "my way or the highway".

In order to be respectful of the people with whom you have a relationship, the "ruleset" should be something negotiated between you - because even though they may not have it all written down and thought-out, everyone has a ruleset, or set of boundaries.

So this may well be the language you are using here - in which case, maybe you could explain more, but this comes across as "I am going to make the rules. Everyone has to sign on to my rules. They will be happy with my rules, or they can leave." The undertone (without you explicitly saying it) is that their rules don't matter, because yours trumps all of them.Yeah I'm not a stingy person at all. Very fair and interested in the well being of others. Though I will have my rules and that will be there at the outset, what they want can be negotiated as well. The reason I have my rules are to protect the entire sanctum. Exceptions (poking holes in some rules) could be made to people who demonstrate respectful behavior (likely those who have been around the longest and earned trust). But outside of my rules, yes, good point, listening to their needs and negotiating that with them so everyone is still ok and happy and feeling respected will be paramount in treating them as I would want to be treated myself.

PolyPhonic

09-04-2012, 04:00 PM

Yep. And he's trying (with some degree of success, sadly) to neg-hit the entire forum.I'm not trying at all. Acting like a Troll, maybe, but I'm just defending myself, I really didn't want to have to go the "troll" route.

And I get the impression that it's important to you guys that I answer your replies, so that's why I'm all over every response and posting so much. Because I left one unanswered for a few hours and someone already got all insecure about it and thought I was ignoring them. I expected more from people of like minds. I thought Poly people were open minded, open hearted, fulfilled, secure people, but I see that all those things do not come with being open, necessarily.

CielDuMatin

09-04-2012, 04:02 PM

nycindie

09-04-2012, 07:51 PM

Derbylicious

09-04-2012, 08:05 PM

BoringGuy

09-04-2012, 10:38 PM

PolyPhonic

09-04-2012, 10:41 PM

So each of your rules are hard-line non-negotiables for you? In order to enter into this, you will have to agree to them and comply? The only time anyone has the right to talk about their wishes is after a certain amount of time has passed, and you trust them enough?

How many of these rules are there? If there are more than a few, I think that you are going to narrow down the list of people that are willing to enter into this even more. Also, I think that the folks that you get that *are* going to agree with it are going to be problematic for you, as I mentioned earlier.Yeah I agree with you. Talking about this has really shed some light on everything. For one thing, it almost seems like the people I want to come into my circle aren't to be Poly minded people. If they were they wouldn't want what I'm setting up. So that's a little bit of a reality check right there. And so those who would be excited to join up with me and my girls, would eventually be the types who would grow to be problems with the situation. I see that better now than before that is for sure.

As far as each of my rules being hard line non-negotiables, no not really. But I mean no cheating would be one... only respectful permission based sharing. I'm not going to set up a Hostel where I support women to be free to enjoy their life with no regard to me. It's supposed to be people who agree to be with me as my girlfriends or more. So calling that hard lined non-negotiables seems like you are putting a stigma on that. I think that's very sensible. I know my limits and it will be spelled out so that they know what they are getting into. If they want to join up with me, than they know what my preferences are going in. If they break the rules, it isn't "get on the highway", every situation will be approached with compassion and understanding and patience and caring if not love. We can talk about why they broke my groundrules, and what they can do in the future to better respect them. From there you get a about three strikes I'd say, within reason, because as they say: The first time is an accident, the second time is a coincidence, and the third time is a pattern.

PolyPhonic

09-04-2012, 10:44 PM

When you go on the internet, evan, and ask questions from strangers on a message board, you don't get to scold them for not answering the way you think they should, nor to tell them how to answer. We operate by the rules of the board, not you, and only a moderator can tell us how to answer in ways that comply. So, if someone is getting a rise out of you, it's on you. You don't have to belittle us and say we are not acting in the true spirit of poly. Methinks you know jack shit about effective communication. We could help you if you weren't so combative and arrogant in your responses and being such a drag with your big "No" to everyone. Ick. I am not offended by your words because I don't give that kind of power to strangers on a message board, but I see that you like to instigate and try to offend people, for some reason.

This is useless, and I know you will likely not be coming back here six months from now, nor contributing in any helpful way to anyone else's threads. You just want to get agreement and only the kind of feedback you want to get, to handle your "huge" (in actuality, common as mud) problem. Eccch, you're selfish.

I'm done with you.
I see you take no responsibility for scolding me, and you excuse the actions of your friends. I'm not interested in changing your core beliefs so that you can approach this differently and have compassion for the things that others did to me in here. It's not necessary for me. I know where you are coming from and I'm sure in time you will have a better idea of my "texture" than the premature judging you have projected onto our conversations. I appreciate you and your experiences and what you have to offer me and others here. If you want to treat me like second class, I cannot do anything about that.

nycindie

09-04-2012, 10:57 PM

I was not scolding you, and nobody actually "did anything to you in here," but you can choose to see yourself as a victim if you want. No, I was simply telling you that you have wasted most of the thread telling people they shouldn't have posted as they did, when it isn't up to you, and thereby have missed important things they wrote. Furthermore, I have no need to "have a better idea" of what you're about "in time." You don't interest me that much. No, I am not treating you as "second class." This is merely an "as you reap so shall ye sow" sort of thing which you began. You get back as good as you give. To me, you're just a faceless, anonymous poster on a message board, possibly a troll, with nothing much to offer, and with whom I shall no longer interact.

*updates Ignore List*
Okay, now I'm really done.

PolyPhonic

09-04-2012, 11:00 PM

I'm wondering if your soon to be wife had to agree to certain rules upon meeting you if the 2 of you were going to be together or if through the process of getting to know each othwr you developped the boundaries of where your relationship would lie together? In the case of the latter any other relationship (and woman who you are in the relationship with ) deserves the same respect.For sure. I agree with you. And in my case, yes I did set forth plenty of rules, and they were respectful honorable rules, and yes in time we had to readjust those rules, but everything made logical sense. Right now it's so difficult because we are needing to adjust but what I want is based on theory (being a poly virgin), and where she draws the line she doesn't even understand (uncharted territory). So this is very confusing.

When someone "opens up" in the midst of a relationship, I think these kinds of difficulties arise. It could be the realization that you're bi, or even more strenuous on a hetero relationship if you realize you are gay. At first you don't want to rock the boat, so you attempt to keep things together. But I think after time you realize you are better off apart.If you had premade rules for your soon to be wife before meeting her and that's what's working for you then have at it. You're just not going to get a lot of support from people here since for the most part we believe in equality in relationships and that everyone involved has a say when it comes to what their relationship will look like. I don't know if I speak for anyone else but I find what I'm reacting to in the way that you talk is that it sounds like you're looling for a patriarchal polygamous set up without the religious overtones.Interesting. I know. But I'd be happy to gravitate towards something more liberating for all. Just that this is all I understand in this moment. I'm certainly capable of greater respect to everyone, I just need to learn the ways. I prefer it not be trial by fire, and so that is why I am doing so much reading, and that is also why I really value your replies and really everyone's replies even the one's who were disrespectful to me and sent me reeling. I value everything they have to offer, believe me. I even value them as people. I just think a little bit of judgement got taken a long way. And I think it would behoove them to be more sensitive to new posters asking for help with their crisis'. I know I was in the situation at the moment I posted where it was a big cry for help in our relationship. Maybe I came to the wrong place, but I was hoping to get some better treatment. It felt like I found some people in the Bronx who wanted to just talk trash about me and how much of a douchebag I am. And it was counterproductive to some extent, but not all. Anyway, you didn't ask about that, I'm rambling. Anyway, I'm just saying I appreciate all the input even if it's been at my expense and I hope that everyone tries to be more sensitive in the future in case someone of less self-esteem than myself might get hurt by the way they went about behaving. I'm ok though.

PolyPhonic

09-04-2012, 11:03 PM

Vinccenzo

09-04-2012, 11:06 PM

BoringGuy

09-04-2012, 11:14 PM

I didn't expect more from you.

And sanctimonious on top of everything else.

PolyPhonic

09-04-2012, 11:16 PM

It seems to all be set up with this notion of you know best for all involved.
GF/soon to be wife? You mention her "ancient" culture and poor English standing in the way of your oh so much more enlightened poly dreams. A lot of things will need to be hashed out to come to some agreement between the two of you. Of course none of this was necessary prior to setting up house (yours) and having a child. Now its your way or she's out.
You want your rules in your house with your girls. Maybe after some time is put in some bending could be negotiated? You shacked up and made a baby and NOW want to renegotiate with her or your "generous enabling" dries up and she is out. No wonder she had a break down.
You are telling people you're not a chauvinist. I don't think its the root either here as you chortle about tossing pittance to people you look down on. Oh they can clean your house and nanny about and you're so mature. Its not about thinking women are lesser. Its about an entitled nature. Want girls? $$$$ They will have needs. $$$$ They might want things you won't like! $$$$ is your enforcer to squash that nonsense. It makes much sense why you left BH. You were just another fish there.
It will be your way or the highway because $$$ is what makes right in your dream world and that's the stink I smelled in this thread from go. No love. No generosity. No poly. You talk of taking care of your "girls" when all you will be doing is turning them into live in prostitutes.Thanks, I appreciate your post. You are 100% right. About them becoming prostitutes, I'm not interested in that at all. I don't want to get anything from them unless they are interested in me as a person. I'm just saying I'm able to give them a really great ride with my support. No job unless they want one, and fun fun fun. Sex, optionally for those comfortable with it. Really it turns me off to be even talking about sex because that's not what I'm interested in with all this. This is about me wanting to share affection and intimacy with more than one person. Period. That's what it's about. If I could go back and not tell you anything about how I am able to treat them nicely I guess I would because you guys are turning it into that I expect something in return. No, I'm just saying that's a layer on top I have and am more than willing to offer to them. I don't get what the big deal is about that. I'm not asking them to pay me a share of a yacht. If I have a yacht, they can enjoy it too. Why is it wrong to not ask them to pay for it? If I have things to share, I will share them. If they don't want it because they are afraid it will obligate them, good for them. Maybe in time they will see that's not important to me, that I am not looking for anything in return... that I enjoy sharing all the fun elements of life I am able to offer other people. It makes me happy to make others happy. I believe that's called compersion.

PolyPhonic

09-04-2012, 11:20 PM

And sanctimonious on top of everything else.It's really not necessary to bully. This was between the two of us.

BoringGuy

09-04-2012, 11:32 PM

It's really not necessary to bully. This was between the two of us.

This is not your Island and I am not one of your girls. There is no "between the two of us" in this part of the forum. That's what private messages are for. Nobody here agreed to have a relationship with you on your "generous" terms.

Why don't you start a blog in Life Stories and Blogs? This subject matter is perfect for that, and nobody is allowed to argue in a blog. It will really be YOUR THREAD. That is not the case the way it is right here right now. If you were at all aware of your surroundings, you would have figured that out by now. I think you may have already been told, too, but I'm telling you right now again if that's the case.

If you can dish it out but can't take it, there's the virtual door.

LovingRadiance

09-04-2012, 11:33 PM

BoringGuy

09-04-2012, 11:47 PM

LovingRadiance

09-04-2012, 11:48 PM

Now, to ur previous question to me:

I can't begin to describe in depth the work to get where we are, its in my blog.
But, where we are now is; i have a poly husband and a mono boyfriend.

No new partners without us agreeing. All new potentials have to meet all of us before ANY dates.
I agree not to take any MORE male lovers.
We three are fluid bonded (they are both straight) but with anyone else we require current std testing AND use of condoms at all times.
Our date nights are priority (as is family time). We don't plan one on one time with anyone else unless we have gotten our one on one time in that week.

Our date times and our bedtimes and our meal times are no cell, no computer times.
I can talk to mono bf about anything-but i agree nOt to DO anything with anyone new until such time as he's comfortable with them.
He agrees to accept fully my relationship with poly husband, and. Ot try to limit me from finding a girlfriend, but i dont have spare time right now so I am not looking.

LovingRadiance

09-04-2012, 11:57 PM

Boring-I read it, saw it and am aware. None the less, Im willing to play the 'ok, in a sincere world, here's the trivia they would want' because;

Even if its. Ot the OP, if the information is helpful to someone, its worth the effort to share it.
Believe me- I was paying attention. I see the signs. Some of which are eye rollingly offensive and others hugely hilarious.

But-what if it really is ingrained ignorance and the person chews on the information-even for a few years-and then it clicks and they change?
My husband was hardcore against gayrights when we married. Now he's precisely the opposite, because in the midst of his idiotic shit, I continued to calmly and pointedly show him the error of his ways. He swore he'd never change, he was just as against open marriages and many oldtimers here can attest to some of the outrageously condescending, double standard bullshit he pulled over the years. But, he changed. Shrug. Sometimes it fails, sometimes it works.

PolyPhonic

09-05-2012, 12:37 AM

This is not your Island and I am not one of your girls. There is no "between the two of us" in this part of the forum. That's what private messages are for. Nobody here agreed to have a relationship with you on your "generous" terms.

Why don't you start a blog in Life Stories and Blogs? This subject matter is perfect for that, and nobody is allowed to argue in a blog. It will really be YOUR THREAD. That is not the case the way it is right here right now. If you were at all aware of your surroundings, you would have figured that out by now. I think you may have already been told, too, but I'm telling you right now again if that's the case.

If you can dish it out but can't take it, there's the virtual door.OMG, you are antagonistic. You did not need to comment on the post that was meant for me with a comment that bullies me. It is unnecessary. I don't care personally. I'm just telling you flat out, you were bullying and you're lucky I am not a person with lower self esteem or I would feel really beaten up on. Just because I happen to bite back and call a spade a spade when being beaten upon doesn't make what you have all done to me noble, valiant, good, nice, patient, or anything of good virtue. The tack you and some others continue to take is indeed typical of what to expect from an internet forum, but I'm speaking up for myself and others to let you guys know that it's bad behavior and you should not do it in situations like these. You're beating up on the new guy and it's just getting old. Endless punching and kicking. You're all bullies the bunch of you who have taken shots at me. It's totally unnecessary. I am not antagonizing any of you except for in response to you doing that to me. And I'm really not upset at you guys at all. I'm just letting you know you are making mistakes, tripping over your own feet, being insensitive. If that's useful to you, than I haven't wasted my breath. If it isn't, I'm still glad I stood up for anyone who isn't able to handle being pushed around by you.

Just chill out. Stay out of it unless you have something positive to contribute. I'm pretty sure the spirit of this board/forum is to be positive, helpful, informative. Not to belittle, judge, and mob members. You are being pestilent and argumentative.

I don't mind taking it. I can handle it. It's text over the internet. It's quite safe, and I'm not hurt at all. But believe me, people definitely do become upset by the way you guys have been behaving and there are even laws to prevent it from getting out of control.

I don't have any hard feelings. It's ok. But when you are ready to stop I really think it would be a good idea for this board and others. It's ok to make mistakes. You don't have to feel bad for screwing things up and feel it necessary to continue to behave that way in order to hold yourself in regard in your community. I already hold you in high regard. But nobody's perfect. As far as the bullying and argumentative antagonizing, you should really consider cutting it out.

PolyPhonic

09-05-2012, 12:40 AM

I was paying attention. I see the signs. Some of which are eye rollingly offensive and others hugely hilarious.Yeah I'm really sorry about that. Really. I'm sure it's 50% due to me just being really clunky when trying to correctly communicate in a new place. And it's 50% that I am a little arrogant, naive, and all the things you guys called me. That's ok. I don't mind hearing the truth, so long as it is done nicely.

I guess I just expected to look up to you guys when I first got here, and some of these people although I know they are super experienced and more wise than me, have been very disappointing as people I should hold in high esteem because of their behavior. I'm disappointed in some the people I found to be trying to be helpful to me. Not all. Just some. You have been brilliant LovingRadiance. And even though the others are more brash I do appreciate them too.

Whatever my problems are, they don't define me or my life. The word "MATURE" is about passing from one stage to another. I think some of the members here could try and be more sensitive to that I might just need to learn something rather than deciding I am worthless to the world in their eyes. Otherwise I think it'd be best if they kept it to themselves because that can be very hurtful to communicate to someone potentially looking up to you for advice.

PolyPhonic

09-05-2012, 01:11 AM

Ok. I think I've figured out part of the communication connundrum. When you write about (for example) the rules. I sense that you are addressing only your part-which is resulting in the board assuming thats all you are considering. Then you are upset over the attitude.Alright. But I mean I haven't necessarily met and discussed the other's needs and I'm open to their needs. I don't want to project any of my own expectations on them, I think that would be unfair. I'm only able to talk about what I need, want, desire, and I can talk about what I expect, but I'm open to that being a work-in-progress.

So ok, I'm sounding one sided? Yeah I guess that's because this is a post at the outset of embarking into Poly and there is not another side yet, so I don't have any interesting stories about the other side to talk about. In fact, the reason I am staying one sided is to get the reflection you guys dished out, in anticipation of making better first moves when getting into this. It's ok some of the dishing was harsh. I'm letting it all soak in. But it's extremely interesting to me when you guys say, "that's not going to work thinking that way." And it makes me think, and I start to come to the same conclusion. In that process I shed a delusion and I gain some better understanding of how these situations can really work and what I need to accept.Your 'hardlines' sound VERY similar to galagirls. Would you humor me and read them?I have some thoughts on what I think would not work for me, so they are ideas for hardlines, but since this still isn't really happening they are just theoretical. For instance, I said before I prefer no "male energy". By that I mean that kind of energy that some of the girls here thought I was like and despise in men. I also despise that same egocentric inflexible bullying energy. So I could say "no men in the birdhouse". But really like I said, if a really cool guy who totally enjoys all the things we enjoy comes along, and he also loves talking about feelings and relationships and is respectful and careful as I would be, than that's fine. So some of the hardlines can be excepted. But I would tell the girls "there is no expectation that another man can enter into this equation, however if we all together find someone that we all want, I am open to the possibility, however I need it respected up until that point that the idea of other men is not entertained freely or individually." Another would be about being dishonest. That for me would open up the floodgates resulting in making sure that person go get tested for STDs because we all have no idea what else she hasn't told us or has told us that has been untruthful. A big long list of "carefuls" like that. That's what my list would look like. Lot's and lots of every little thing we need to watch out for, outlined.Tell me if I am right? She has a thread about it in the lifestyles and blogs section.Ok, I'll go check it out. I like her flamboyance and free spirit, so I probably will find it very insightful at least.I think the confusion is in your not specifying what the othersides rights/responsibilities are in terms of identifying if you and the imaginary they can agree.Right, right, right. I see what you mean now. It's like I am treating the other side as completely subserviant and in agreement to my every thought, because they don't exist and already share my same beliefs because they are a projection of me. I see. The thing is, at first, because of my "ruleset" I will be already in the ballpark as far as that is concerned. Things that come up will probably get written into the addendum for any new ones coming in, but that is why I want to make sure the ruleset list is very very well thought out at first. I am reading about 20 different sources (books, websites) to gain that foresight, but of course I cannot predict everything. But I am a very fair, understanding, amenable patient person with those that I'm giving my love to. So if a subject comes up, I'm going to be a good person to work with the other person on giving them their freedom to make their dreams come true. Like I said before, I enjoy when others are happy and I enjoy making or letting them if I am in the way before that. If someone needs to leave me, I will not be sad. That is their journey. I would only be sad if I thought they were going to a sad place in their journey.I gather that you are trying to write from the 'i can only speak for me' perspective-which isnt a bad thing, but having not specifically said thats what u r doing it appears that u r disregarding the opinions and rights of the imaginary other parties.

Does that make sense at all?Yeah that totally makes sense. So you think it would work better to preface with that in the future? It's easy to say "yes", but do you really when you think about, think that would change the result?

PolyPhonic

09-05-2012, 01:14 AM

But-what if it really is ingrained ignorance and the person chews on the information-even for a few years-and then it clicks and they change?
My husband was hardcore against gayrights when we married. Now he's precisely the opposite, because in the midst of his idiotic shit, I continued to calmly and pointedly show him the error of his ways. He swore he'd never change, he was just as against open marriages and many oldtimers here can attest to some of the outrageously condescending, double standard bullshit he pulled over the years. But, he changed. Shrug. Sometimes it fails, sometimes it works.Yeah I used to be hardlined for the Death Penalty and for the right for a woman to have Abortion. Since than I have become against the Death Penalty, and although I believe in a woman's right, I personally am against abortion because I have delivered my own baby and I just don't believe that it's ok to kill one just because it hasn't slipped out the Vagina yet. People change. I am one who definitely changes. I am becoming Poly, pretty sure. Opening up. I am a person who definitely changes throughout my life. I don't resent or regret. This is my journey.

PolyPhonic

09-05-2012, 01:25 AM

In the spirit of continuing to expose my own character in this process, I would like to share another thought that has occured to me today as feelings of poly wane back and forth from being interesting to me, to, not being all into it at certain moments... and that is that when there is not the temptation/opportunity for the possibility, I do not feel the pull. I don't know what that means as far as my character, true "poly-ness" versus not polyness, but maybe some of you will be able to figure out why I feel like that and what that means.

I mean could a man be born into a world with no men, all women, and become/realize he is gay? Is it the temptation combined with our wiring that causes us to go there? When I think about other girls who want to be with me, I think "why not?! yeah". But if they aren't contacting me, or getting in my mind, I don't feel the need to breakup with my wife and lose seeing my baby everyday and create "my birdhouse", however I still feel when I think about it, that if the opportunity is there I prefer to live that life than this one (or rather lifestyle than this one).

LovingRadiance

09-05-2012, 01:57 AM

Nod. I don't think it would make a huge difference always, but yes, especially with writing, it helps to explain that. Its called metacommunication and can make a huge difference in how people percieve u. I have seen that often here. :)

I dont have time right now to elaborate. Kids need mommy time. Daddy and GG are working late. More ltr!

CielDuMatin

09-05-2012, 02:20 AM

This conversation (and the other thread you started) has got really rocky, I know - and I get the feeling that a lot of it comes from the different backgrounds and societies in which folks live. I have had some experience of this and am trying to work through all the assumptions and snarkiness and give the benefit of the doubt...

First, the "non-negotiables" are exactly that - things that are the "bottom line" for you. These are the things that must be present in any relationship setup for things to work for you. Then there are other issues that may be negotiable - things you would like to have. Everybody has their "bottom line" boundaries or rules - and they need to be very aware of them. So my use of the term wasn't to put you down at all, it was just to recognise that reality.

Here is what I suggest - don't just think about the ruleset that you are going to come up with, but think about the process that you are going to use when a new person is interested in joining your relationship dynamic. Will you sit down and invite the new person to present *their* ruleset, maybe before you present yours? The egalistarian way would be to acknowledge that every individual has their own rulesets that deserve to be respected. Now you may be thinking "well, of *course* I would do that" - the problem is, you have been presenting this as "me, me, me" and folks have gone with that, leading to a lot of the negative exchanges on this thread.

I have found that most people that like to posit themselves as "alpha males" usually get maneuvered into being exactly the opposite, usually by manipulation. If you go into this with a more equal tone - of this being a group of individuals, each bringing something to the table - then I think your chances are a lot better. A lot of the words you have been using have led people (including me) to believe that this won't be anything like this.

I also think that re-examining your "I will be the only male directly involved" statement would be worthwhile - it, again, doesn't come across as very egalitarian or open-minded. Why not let things grow as they will with whomsoever fits?

Think about the process of bringing someone new in - how much say do the existing people in the relationship (other than you) get in terms of who gets added, or is this something that only you will decide?

A footnote - many folks when they are thinking about poly come up with their "ideal" poly setup. Usually this is highly impractical or unobtainable. As time passes, and experience with actual polyamory increases, the realisation sets in that something more down-to-earth is going to work far better. A lot of the critique here (while aggressive at times) is often trying to bring that point home to you - that your current goal may need some severe refinement.

BoringGuy

09-05-2012, 02:25 AM

OMG, you are antagonistic.

[predictable jibber-jabber deleted]

You are somewhat entertaining, but you need to say something new occasionally.

What about starting your own blog thread? You have avoided the most relevant questions people have asked you and you remain fixated on this "bullying" nonsense.

PolyPhonic

09-05-2012, 04:21 AM

...and the other half that aren't buying it he's doing this "Jesus" thing like forgiving us because we know not what we do.Hahaha that was hilarious. Even if it's at my expense, that was really f-ing funny! lol Love it

PolyPhonic

09-05-2012, 04:46 AM

It sounds fair and wonderful if the OP didn't use the term "cock-blocking" to refer to his wife not wanting to move another "hot bi babe" into the house, then when people call him ouot on that, he says "no no, i meant that my wife wants to hog all the sex to herself with the other woman".Like I said, I should have said "pussy block" but it wouldn't have worked out of context, it just sounded better to use the proverbial phrase "cock block". It didn't need to be a big huge negative thing. It was to illustrate that she was preventing something that I wanted. I'll explain below:So, which is it? His wife does or doesn't want this woman? His wife is refusing to let the woman move in because she wants a relationshipi with the woman all to herself? This doesn't make sense, and if it doesn't make sense, it probably isn't true. I'm not making this up. The OP keeps writing things that anyone who can read can immediately find things that contradict each other. Then he back-peddles.It's that she is mono wired and does not want anyone to move in. She is bi-curious I guess you could say and so wants to dabble in a threesome, but by "cock blocking" I mean that she will try and prevent and control my connection with the girl because she fears the possibility that I will ask her the ridiculous (in her mind it is) to have the woman move in with us. Honestly, I don't think this chick is the perfect material for that, though I have no idea, and in any event we haven't asked her, it's not like just because I want her to she will. Point is, I'm giving her free reign with the girl, but she is not giving me free reign with her. In the spirit of opening up, I'm ok with having my fiancee permit me to do whatever she is comfortable with, but she is going to really be a buzzkill in the moment if she's constantly projecting insecurity to the other girl as I try and enjoy some time with her. And all because she is worried that the girl will infringe on her monogamy.

God don't you just love how conflicted monos who can't embrace their inner poly get? (Wouldn't a monogamous person interested in threesomes be a candidate for being a closet poly?)

Today she admitted to me that there is even a childhood friend she had a dream about last night who she told me she always wanted to have sex with when they were young but the opportunity never occurred, and when I asked her if she wanted to have sex with him she said "mmm" which was like 'maybe' so when I asked "but do you want to BE with him?" like switch over to a relationship with him, she said "no". In that moment in contrast with the previous answer it led me to believe that she could have answered "no" just as easily to when I asked if she wanted to have sex with him, but she didn't say "no" she said "mmm" to that, so that means she wouldn't mind having sex with him. It's ok I was a pro poker player. She wants to have sex with him.

Later in the day I told her the "more children" analogy to see if I could get her to better understand what it means to want more of something you already have. For anyone unaware, the basic is to ask someone who has more than one child why they decided to have a second one if they already had one. Wasn't one enough?

Today I also read a good one. Ice-cream on top of your pie. Just because you don't get ice-cream on top of your pie doesn't mean you need to feel bad about the delicious pie you get. It's an analogy for how a mono has to appreciate what they get in a poly situation.

Anyway my several paragraph point is, I think my fiancee has a little "poly" hidden down inside her after all. I asked her when she got curious about having sex with a girl, and she said her whole life. I asked her when she got curious about having threesomes and she said since her first husband wanted it but that she rejected the idea out of fear of losing him. But it still stuck with her, and now she is very curious and we have been experimenting with this other girl. And now today she drops the old teenage crush sex bomb on me so coyly (I had a dream last night, yeah right).What he calls "bullying" on my part is simply making fun of him because he has about half the people in this thread trying to look open-minded, and the other half that aren't buying it he's doing this "Jesus" thing like forgiving us because we know not what we do.Yeah I'm not even keeping score. I don't know if it was you or whoever. It's the past for me. If it happens again I will let whoever does it know. For now I've said my peace.It's obvious to me that the OP's story has been tailored and adjusted along the way to push all the poly hot-buttons of as many people as possible.Oh no, not at all. I am not like that. Maybe that's how it feels for you, but that's not at all how I think. I'm not on a mission to upset anyone or have any bad motives.I'm suspecting he is attempting to piss people off to the point where they make themselves look like fools.Uh, no. I would rather they see what they did wrong and become better people. An apology would be nice, but I don't need it. It'd be far more fulfilling for me to see someone say they understand and will make sure to do better in the future.There is a lot going on here that meets the classic trolling techniques.Well, it's not manufactured. I'm only being me. I didn't read any "troll" guidebook. lolI'm actually enjoying this thread because it's giving me ideas for my stand-up comedy routine. Not what the OP says, but what others (including myself) say.Haha, yeah there are some good ones here. I don't think I've been too funny except as a study maybe. :-/If you will excuse me, I have to go compose music, take pictures of nude models on white-sandy beaches, and put my kids to bed.I never said nude models, but that is funny. I would just add: "...and then slip into bed with my foursome." That sounds even more ironic after the kids line.I did have more to say but I bet other people can take it from here....

PolyPhonic

09-05-2012, 04:51 AM

Its called metacommunication and can make a huge difference in how people percieve u.Yeah I know about metacommunication in real conversations, body language, context, etc. But how to do that in writing? Sounds like you are talking about "framing" but I'm not sure how to do that as a craft. I'd be curious to find an appropriate link teaching the skill of metacommunicating in writing.

Phy

09-05-2012, 05:15 AM

Point is, I'm giving her free reign with the girl, but she is not giving me free reign with her.

Does she want this free reign? Is she even interested in more than just sex? I know that things should be equal ideally, but sometimes you need a certain time of unequalness to reach a comfortable place. It happens often in poly relationships that one person (who is the more at-ease-one in regard to poly mostly) can grant more freedom to the partner and cut back on his/her own for a while to let the partner come to terms and see for him/herself if the threats he or she is fearing are really as gruesome as imagined. This may work here as well.

God don't you just love how conflicted monos who can't embrace their inner poly get? (Wouldn't a monogamous person interested in threesomes be a candidate for being a closet poly?)

No, I don't think so. Threesomes are just sex. Period. Swinging works for many who aren't into the relationship and emotion stuff at all polys are sometimes searching in such a constellation. This doesn't mean that polys can't be great at swinging as well, but a monogamous person will likely be less 'endangered' to really fall in love with a new potential partner when the feelings for the original one are stable and just there.

Don't confuse poly with sex. Recreational sex has nothing to do with it and if your wife enjoys another woman it does in no poly-book mean that she may be poly herself.

LovingRadiance

09-05-2012, 05:32 AM

I have a textbook that explains it well. Tomorrow evening I will get on the laptop and see if I can't find some info on it. :)

GalaGirl

09-05-2012, 06:43 AM

These are her clear limits you are reporting in your post here (http://www.polyamory.com/forum/showpost.php?p=152902&postcount=142)as I read/hear it:

She is monoamorous.
She is not interested in being Open in Heart to love more than one at a time.
She is not interested in exploring a polyamorous relationship structure with you.
She does not want anyone to move in and does not want you asking people to do so.
She is bi-curious and is open to dabble in a threesome (for recreational sex only. ie: Open in Body.)
She is open to a non-monogamous relationship with you in the shape of hard swinging, either swinging as singles or swinging as a couple.

We circle back around to the thing you do not seem to want deal with straight up:

Accept the woman's limits. She is articulating them. Make your decision to be in right relationship with her.

Stop being a pushy polyamorous swinging person. Does not flatter you and it is not ethical to flat out ignore your partner's stated wants/needs/limits. That is not loving behavior toward your partner. That is not being in right relationship with your partner.

She does not want poly. She's seeming ok with hard swing. It is what is is. You are in a non-monogamous relationship with monoamorous her that can include swinging play partners. Having received this information from her your ethical choices as I see them are:

If you want to hard swing with her and can be happy there? Keep it there then and enjoy your partner sharing this much with you where you DO have common ground to share and can explore. Stop badgering her on exploring polyamorous relationship structure together. Badgering is not loving behavior.

If you want swinging AND polyamory at this time -- but your partner does NOT want that combo this time, then something has to go.

a) Choose to lose the desire for polyship relationship WITH your partner. Lose the polyship dream and accept it just won't fly here. Because you value the partner more than the polyshipping at this time. And because you value her? Stop badgering her on exploring polyamorous relationship structure together. Badgering is not loving behavior.

b) Chose to be Open to polyamorous relationship without her and so set her free. Break up clean so you can fly the dream then. Because you value your free polyshipping ability at this time more than you love being in this "Heart monoamorous / Body non-monogamous" type relationship with this partner.

I cannot see any other ethical choice to make. Perhaps you do, but I cannot.

So faced with those choices? Own it. Decide. Both choices are ethical and both honor and respect her limits so you can remain in right relationship to her either as your "partner" person or as your "good ex who is now a friend" person.

GG

PolyPhonic

09-05-2012, 07:21 AM

Haven't read these last 3 responses. Typing from my phone slowly. I just did the breakup talk. This sh** has been real for the last 2 hours. I'll post more soon.

GalaGirl

09-05-2012, 12:22 PM

I'm sorry to hear it comes down to a break up thing. That is never fun.

But at least it is moving you both forward toward future happiness even if the present time is unfun. You definitely could not continue on this way with a mismatch on wants/needs from the relationship and unable to see eye to eye or find common ground.

Hopefully this transition time will go as smooth/quick/clean as possible for both, and your child(ren) and both of you will be provided for well in the restore/rebuild time as you find the "new normal." May it be so.

GL!
GG

CielDuMatin

09-05-2012, 01:09 PM

Evan,

I can understand that this is tough, but I really do think that is is the most respectful thing for both of you. It allows you both to stay true to your principles and will allow you to further refine what you need in order to be happy.

Not sure if you are going to want to continue the conversation, here, since your issues with this relationship were the starting point, but if you want to use us as sounding boards for your future plans (maybe once you have had some time to process your changes) please feel free.

BoringGuy

09-05-2012, 01:23 PM

I know what evan's deal is now. He thought he would come here and the open-minded, secure poly people would tell him that he has the right ideas and his wife sounds like a closet poly, and that should be nurtured or something so that he can generously enable her to grow into the full person she is capable of being. Etc.

Instead, the bullying closed-minded insecure poly people said, "your wife is a big girl, i mean, grown woman who sounds quite capable of deciding these things for herself. Not only has she decided, but she seems to have communicated it quite clearly to you despite the language barrier and your experience as a professional poker player. What part of "NO" don't you understand?"

YouAreHere

09-05-2012, 01:31 PM

Sorry to hear about the breakup, but I agree with others who have said that if your goals for your relationship are at odds, then this is probably for the best, even though it feels awful right now. Hoping for the best for you and all involved...

That said, I did have to address this:

God don't you just love how conflicted monos who can't embrace their inner poly get? (Wouldn't a monogamous person interested in threesomes be a candidate for being a closet poly?)

No, and no.

A threesome can just be sex, can be exploration of "what if I were with a woman", can be lots of things, but it does not have to be Poly (there doesn't have to be ANY emotion or love behind that at all). It can even be "he wants this so I'll make him happy", which is just sad, IMO.

Please don't assume Monos have a self that is "inner Poly" - I went around the axle a few times with my partner about that, early on in the relationship. It's insulting when it's intimated that we don't know our own hearts about something. There are folks who really ARE Poly at heart and didn't realize it (I know there are a few here who found themselves later in life), but that's for each individual to work out, and not for people to be told by others.

WhatHappened

09-05-2012, 02:03 PM

Like I said, I should have said "pussy block" but it wouldn't have worked out of context, it just sounded better to use the proverbial phrase "cock block". It didn't need to be a big huge negative thing. It was to illustrate that she was preventing something that I wanted.

And this is exactly the point. You appear to regard her and treat her and speak about her, not as a human being with her own wants and needs and desires in a relationship, but as someone preventing you getting what you want. So you call her a vulgar name.

Pussy block, cock block, it's beside the point. It's all name-calling.

Relationships are give and take. If it's not a match, it's not. A mature person acknowledges that the wants and needs are mutually incompatible and can accept it and still regard the other person with respect and love. If you respect and love her, it does not show when you call her names. I hope you don't call her names like that to her face. :(

CielDuMatin

09-05-2012, 02:44 PM

To try to be fair, Evan isn't the first person that has come here hoping for some particular way of making someone they love change their mind when it comes to poly. Most of my work on this front was done before these sorts of fora existed, but I remember the number of nights that I lay awake, wracking my brain, trying to think of how to explain it all to her and make her understand, because I had to entertain the idea that the reason she was saying "no" wasn't because she wasn't poly, but that I hadn't found the best way of explaining it yet and that I really, really needed to find that. It was a deficiency in me, and I needed to work on that.

Evan's delivery style triggered quite a few people, here (including me). I am still unsure of his mind-set about a lot of things and am hoping that most of it can be put down to word choices and having that "poly fantasy" that will not go away. His life, experiences and lifestyle are very far removed from most of our experiences and our paradigms (how many of you have experienced life on a Caribbean island - from my own experiences it is *quite* different in a lot of ways from what most of us are used to) - in so many ways he is coming at this from a very different place than most of us, but is facing a lot of quite similar issues.

But like most people that come here, they come to learn, and we need to be cognizant of that, rather than resorting to mockery.

PolyPhonic

09-05-2012, 04:49 PM

in so many ways he is coming at this from a very different place than most of us, but is facing a lot of quite similar issuesYes. I think I understand what it feels like to be so "different", such a social paradigm, to have a latent lifestyle change within be discovered and come out, a lifestyle change that society rejects, and I do think that because my situation is on an island in the Caribbean paradise it made it easy for people in the Poly community to try and reject me as well. I was made to think I was weird by Polys. That made me feel even more on my own with my feelings in discovering I'm poly, and made me doubt that I am Poly.

I thought that Poly and Open Minded were synonymous and expected a better class of "embracing differences" to be found here. Instead I found a lot of people acting insecure with me and my existence.

Part of what makes me Poly, heck maybe everything that makes me Poly... is my open mind, my empathy, compassion, caring, ability to share, to feel love without limits, to have no limits when it comes to making people happy, and to be someone who thinks outside the box and not just in a bigger box!

It's been a real eye opener to see so many people that do not share that same mentality as I thought that was a core part of being Poly. I have to accept that embracing Poly is going to have to come with poly people who I do not share the same beliefs with.

PolyPhonic

09-05-2012, 04:52 PM

But like most people that come here, they come to learn, and we need to be cognizant of that, rather than resorting to mockery.And that is how I lead my life Ciel. A person may not be in the same place as you in the moment you are talking with them, but it's important to have compassion and not to define them by the way they are in that moment. A person is capable of maturing, changing, forgiveness, and so many things that evolve us. I could never typecast someone and reject them based on the typecast. Mockery is cool, it can be really funny, and it's a nice lightweight way to deal with things when you are uncomfortable with being serious, but yeah I think that when it comes to someone trying to learn something, especially if they are asking for advice, mockery is really borderline cruel. It's cool. I love you all. We are all human and we all have something wonderful to offer the world, deep inside.

PolyPhonic

09-05-2012, 05:01 PM

UPDATE: It's like we broke up, but we're back together. So I'm not sure where this is going, but I told her to go, I let her go, and yet at the moment we are still together because we love each other. I'm talking about how I want to lead my life, and right now we are still within the love we still feel for each other, so I guess we are in a neutral safe negotiating place. Kudos to her for being able to even fathom any of this. I was worried about her taking her own life last night. We went through a lot. She almost cut up our wedding dress. But I did my best to protect her from being destructive. Outside of those moments, nothing was ever said or done from hate, and included questions, sadness, and love. Everything is ok at the moment. Another day to digest our differences, and make the best decisions. That is how we're approaching it at the moment. Still in process...

Phy

09-05-2012, 05:01 PM

Please note that there is not 'one' kind of poly. You will find many different approaches with many different ways of living some kind of poly in everyday life. Don't assume that people have to see the whole concept like you do just because they lead some kind of poly relationship. There are some who want to stay single and unattached to their partners financially, in regard to living space or shared activities or whatever you can think of. Others (like me) would love to include their partners in every part of their life, living together, raising children, building a home and so on. Those are vastly different concepts but both belong to the poly group.

And what rubbed most in the wrong way was that you seemed to talk about things that per definition don't belong to poly relationships (for example, swinging is focused on sex and not part of a poly relationship per se). Of course people get defensive of the general idea if they feel that you are confusing some basic concepts.

And lastly: There are so many comign here and seeking help and in most cases there are some underlying patterns that can be made out as destructive in 99% of the cases. Again, some of the things you spoke about were of that kind and people tried to warn you that this may be no healthy concept to pursue in regard to building some stable poly relationships. This doesn't have anything to do with their open mindedness, it is just experience that made them warn you and point out the possible red flags in your story.

PolyPhonic

09-05-2012, 05:16 PM

And what rubbed most in the wrong way was that you seemed to talk about things that per definition don't belong to poly relationships (for example, swinging is focused on sex and not part of a poly relationship per se). Of course people get defensive of the general idea if they feel that you are confusing some basic concepts.Right yeah, I didn't even understand that. But it was great that anyone sensed my confusion and helped define that for me because that came up last night and assured us that I am DEFINITELY Poly. I kept telling her that I wanted to be with other women, but it wasn't about sex. And now I understand that she was only ok with that if it was about sex. So when I told her it involved feelings/emotions, that really hurt her the most, and through that I really understood that what I want is Poly not Swinging. I don't enjoy non-meaningful intimacy. And she understood better that I am Poly and that she does not want to be like that.

Phy

09-05-2012, 05:29 PM

I kept telling her that I wanted to be with other women, but it wasn't about sex. And now I understand that she was only ok with that if it was about sex. So when I told her it involved feelings/emotions, that really hurt her the most, and through that I really understood that what I want is Poly not Swinging. I don't enjoy non-meaningful intimacy.

Ah, well that sounds familiar. That is another of those basic things when first confronted with poly: there are some who seem to have a better handle of the emotional side of it and some that are more comfortable with the physical part. I have both concepts 'at home' as my boyfriend has had no problem with my feelings for my husband but was greatly upset about the physical part of our relationship in the beginning and vice versa in the case of my husband, who thought that the fact that I was intimate with another man was hot and struggled a bit with me having emotions for the other. We came around this by now, one of my last blog entries is dealing with the aftermaths of those insecurities but that took us about a year's time.

For some emotions are a great threat. If you love a person your partner can be sure that this person will play a huge role in your life. A physical relationship can be handled as 'just sex' and a fleeting experience. This may be the root for her discomfort as from her point of view, it threatens her place in your life as a person loved by you. The concept that love isn't something like a pie that has to be divided into pieces and therefore gets lesser the more people want a piece of it isn't something she learned up to now. My husband came to terms with this when he experienced the love between him and me not diminishing while witnessing the love between my boyfriend and I growing from day to day.

But again: This will need some time to sink in and for her to wrap her mind around it.

CielDuMatin

09-05-2012, 06:54 PM

Please don't assume that poly folk are automatically open-minded to other ideas. There may well be a tendency to be more open-minded, but that doesn't mean that it's a requirement. In fact I have met some extremely closed-minded poly folk often these are the so-called "One True Wayers" to believe that *their* style of poly is the only right one, and that everyone else should be put down because they are so obviously inferior.

I had a gay friend that believed that in their hearts, everyone was gay. Oh and bisexuals? They were just confused.

No sector of society has the monopoly on open-mindedness, in my experience.

We have seen far too many come into forums like this, proclaiming that they were poly, but in fact, just wanted to have sex with lots of people. We have had misogynists who wanted to build a harem and who believed that women were only there to keep a man satisfied and have his babies. Some of us have had actual experience (usually very bad to horrible) with men like this. For this reason I have learned that choice of wording is very, very important on fora. I think that you have ample examples in your two threads of wording that you have used that has rubbed folks the wrong way, or triggered them. A lot of the mockery that you have seen has been because of this.

And, when it comes down to it, a lot of the issues that you are having, a lot of the thoughts that are running through your head, aren't that atypical of a lot of folks' stories.

As for your current situation - it sounds like it really did get real. Now the real thinking is getting done - the realization that there are non-negotiables here, whether or not they are compatible, and the consequences of what happens when they aren't.

This stuff is tough.

LovingRadiance

09-05-2012, 08:33 PM

http://danedgeofreason.blogspot.com/2008/02/meta-communication.html

In terms of writing-online especially,
using italics, capital letters, punctuation, underlines, font changes, font color changes, emoticons all impact communication and can be used to ensure that the EMOTION of a message is sent congruently with the words being typed.

Additionally, something that can be used in verbal or written communication is establishing (frequently if the conversation goes over several hours or in this case days and weeks) what the goal/purpose/intent of the writing is.

For example, if I want to vent-and know I may say things "politically incorrectly"-I can say,

**VENT**
Then readers know that what follows may be a totally brainless temper tantrum-and not to presume that every word I write is the exact way I feel or exactly what I think of my partner (or the situation) or even exactly what occurred in a situation.

So, if I write the following:

**VENT** OMG MACA IS SUCH A DICK! I can't believe he fucking woke me up at 5 am for NO DAMN REASON today! What an asshole! I haven't had shit for sleep in a week and I'm exhuasted. I wish he was more considerate! I am so sick of hearing his damn alarm clock go off 3 times EVERY FUCKING DAY.....Someone else might reply with:

Wow LR-that's not really like you to say those types of things about Maca-is everything ok?

People know that there may be some exaggerations, that I am letting off steam and probably not ready for suggestions or advice and just need some emotionally attentive "listening" and empathy until I cool off.

A few posts later I might write something like this:

**Apology** Wow, I really lost it today! I just started my period and realized I must have been on a hormonal bent, because it just wasn't sensible for me to flip out like that! :o I hope you all know I was just having a moment.

Then in reply to the question someone asked I might say:

:o Yes, we're ok. I don't even think Maca knew I was pissed. We've talked about the alarm before and agreed that if I just can't handle it, it's ok for me to get up the first time it goes off and move to my room to sleep without hearing it go off 2 more times. But, really, I can't bitch. He gets up at 5 every weekday morning and drives an hour to work. Usually I don't have to be up til 9 when the kids get up.
I was just hormonal and frustrated because I agreed to babysit LP (WHAT WAS I THINKING) all week. He's been sick and so have his parents-so I haven't been sleeping well. But that's not Maca's fault! [shaking head at self] he wakes up every time LP does also and he's been trying to be supportive and helpful. Hell-he made dinner every night this week and got everyone quieted down and mellowed out so I could go to be early several nights too! I just freaked out.

THEN everyone can follow the progression of my thoughts-not only the parts I specifically write;
but also the emotions (via emoticons and parenthetical remarks about my actions) and what it is I'm expecting to accomplish with my writing via my "vent" and "apoloy" notations at the beginning.

;)

LovingRadiance

09-05-2012, 08:35 PM

There is actually a very good thread in here somewhere ALL about communication... you might do a search for it. :) LOTS of good advice in regards to dealing with difficult topics like you are addressing.

I'm sorry that things have been tough today-but I'm glad things are "real" thats important.
It feels REALLY hard at first-but honestly-it's amazing how much nicer it is when things are real. :)

I wrote about that in the life stories blog a couple days ago! LOL!

PolyPhonic

09-05-2012, 08:51 PM

PolyPhonic

09-05-2012, 09:07 PM

Hopefully this transition time will go as smooth/quick/clean as possible for both, and your child(ren) and both of you will be provided for well in the restore/rebuild time as you find the "new normal." May it be so.You frame it so nicely. Thanks for the sentiments. I'm still bummed we have come to this crossing instead of having known it from the outset. That's the source of some resentment right now. Not so much on my part, I accept that these things happen and there was nothing we could do back then when we met...that it was our journey and circumstances that clarified our differences. But she is younger and less experienced and I think she believes she missed some signs, should have known better, and she has a percentage of her that regrets getting together with me.

LovingRadiance

09-05-2012, 09:15 PM

Evans-I can't do the phone-but is she there with you right now?

CielDuMatin

09-05-2012, 09:23 PM

We would both like to talk to a psychologist. Me somewhat, but she really wants to. She says her brain and heart are getting squished :( and she has no one to talk to and that she usually talks to her mom but her mom just got out of serious surgery and she doesn't want to upset her.I think that that might be a great idea.

Is there anybody here that might even be able to do a phone call with us, to just be a friend in a similar situation of Mono-Poly and talk about all the difficulties and how you got to a copacetic scenario?I would strongly suggest that since she has to think hard to speak English, that the person you speak with be bilingual. When things are tough, it's so hard to express the nuances of feeling in a foreign language, even when fairly proficient. She needs to feel comfortable talking to the person you know?

We're at the point of ripping apart but we don't want to. And it's not because we hate each other. It's because we love each other but aren't sure how to live together.This is very, very hard to face - the idea that you love and care for someone, but that your bottom-lines (your non-negotiables) are mutually incompatible. But it's reality.

She seems to respond favorably when she hears about others who are in similar situations and it's working. It makes her think, hmm, I guess it's possible.It's only possible for folks who are truly happy doing it. The Mono/poly configuration is a tough one to handle, but I have been doing it for the past few decades. It takes a lot of work, and a lot of compromises on both sides - often the "poly ideal" has to completely go by the wayside and only a limited part of it is possible. It takes both sides to really want to make it work, and find a place to meet in the middle.

Have you looked for spanish language polyamory resources? Maybe she can get some more food for thought there.

http://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poliamor doesn't have a ton, but I don't speak the language, so not sure if there are any nuggets in there.

LovingRadiance

09-05-2012, 09:30 PM

I concur with Ciel's last post.
I'm three years in.
Boyfriend and I haven't had any major issues-but there are a lot of things in poly that simply don't work with a monopoly (small humor there cause smiling is always good for the soul).

Bilingual is a HUGE deal-communication is MUCH more important than talking and someone who can talk isn't necessarily going to be able to communicate with her.

I did pm you.

opalescent

09-06-2012, 03:06 AM

I suggest find a professional counselor to talk with both of you. Here is a link to the National Coalition for Sexual Freedom's Kink Aware Professionals directory - https://ncsfreedom.org/resources/kink-aware-professionals-directory/kap-directory-homepage.html.

NCSF set up KAP to give kinky people safe reputable professionals of all kinds to go to. It's a good bet that if the counselor is kink aware, they are more likely to be poly aware too. Also people who have a practice focused on LGBT concerns are also generally good bets to be poly aware too.

It is unlikely that one is on your island but you never know. Also many counselors will do skype or conference call sessions. You could also search for Spanish to find a bilingual counselor.

lovefromgirl

09-06-2012, 04:13 AM

and she has no one to talk to and that she usually talks to her mom but her mom just got out of serious surgery and she doesn't want to upset her.

This poor woman. Hard enough planning a wedding; her mom's just had surgery, too? Youch.

I'm not in a mono-poly situation, unfortunately, and I've got all the time in the world for a Skype call.

We're at the point of ripping apart but we don't want to. And it's not because we hate each other. It's because we love each other but aren't sure how to live together. She seems to respond favorably when she hears about others who are in similar situations and it's working. It makes her think, hmm, I guess it's possible.

My family of origin is like that: we can't seem to cope with each other, but we're screwed if we separate. I can't offer anyone any hope there, either!

But I can be sympathetic, so to both of you, I am sorry this is so hard. I don't have to live on an island to feel bad about the problems you're having. (And I've been the odd one out in a lot of situations, FWIW. I was That Foreign Kid in school. Frustrating.)

GalaGirl

09-06-2012, 04:13 AM

I was worried about her taking her own life last night. We went through a lot. She almost cut up our wedding dress.

I am disturbed you wrote she was talking about killing herself. Is that what that was?! If so? Why have you not got your wife to hospital?

We're at the point of ripping apart but we don't want to. And it's not because we hate each other. It's because we love each other but aren't sure how to live together.

What you WANT is not happening. Because you both WANT very different things. Accept it.

What your overall relationship NEEDS is to get out of this gridlock of constant emotional unsafety/pressure. Accept it.

Best solution at this time? Break up. That stinks. But it is stink with relief in sight. Accept it.

It is better than carrying on this way and have endless stinkage forever.

Even if she's on suicide watch? (I know this may sound cold initially. Bear with me though.) Even in that event? If in the end it still boils down to YOU want to be polyamorous in a polyship structure and she does NOT? That conversation is OVER. The relationship is over. You do not match.

ACCEPT IT.

And accept that instead of one problem (we do not match, we need a divorce) you have another problem (we do not match, so we need a divorce. We also need to provide for wife's health care/suicide watch issues so she is well taken care of. You can still visit her in hospital and bring her flowers, you know. But get into right relationship here -- if you do not match up romance wise, get back to being only friends. )

Her emotional end of the deal is her end of the deal. If she needs a counselor to cope with divorce emotions? Do the responsible, compassionate, kind thing and help her GET ONE. You are not a pro. You are also too close to the issue.

If she starts dumping at you inappropriately? Check out of any brewing fight she's trying to pick. Tell her firmly you love her and always will love her but you are NOT compatible as wedded partners and she cannot be beating you up emotionally to punish you for something that is not anyone's fault. Tell her to call her counselor. Then go for a walk. Leave the room.

Affirm you love her, and care about her still and always will as many times as needed. In the role of loving FRIEND. Because monogamous HUSBAND you cannot be, and to spare her never ending suckage pain NOW and open the door for her future happiness LATER -- because you love her? You have to vacate that role so someone else more suited to her can be able to COME IN. No monogamous future husband to be will walk in to her monogamous relationship wanting life if you are hogging the husband spot. This is only sense.

You do not match up. Remaining stuck in gridlock is NOT HEALTHY for either of you. Move the thing FORWARD to the place where you can be good exes, co parents, and friends. Not crazy arguing people upset all the time.

Neither of you is having fun dragging out the inevitable. So stop dragging.

She is experiencing emotional flooding and fears (google emotional flooding) and the RELIEF of knowing it is divorce is something concrete. It is not FUN, but then it is not endless stinky. It is stinky with an end point. Some choices in Life are not picking between win or lose. It is picking between "this choice stinks!" and "this choice stinks too!" and picking the one that is the least stinky then.

It still will stink for a time, but both of you can weather it better knowing there's a light at the end of the tunnel. You will feel all sorts of more emotional rollercoaster crazy before the ride calms down. Get pro help to support you in this time.

SHOW HER that you have not stopped loving her as a good friend. Keeping moving it to an amicable split -- as amicable as possible.

STOP/PAUSE extra relationships -- no extra dating. Anyone you are seeing seriously (if you are) could understand that you need some space to process a clean divorce and provide for ex wife/kids sanely.

Focus on ending this one well, with appropriate care for her emotional crisis states. If she needs doctor, if she needs hospital suicide watch, if she needs counselor, etc. Care for your own buckets as well.

It's just the reality that you both want two different things from your relationship structure with a romantic partner.

This is LIFE.

I'm fluent in Spanish -- I'm half Latina. I cannot do phone but she could post on this thread and I'd read it.

But I strongly suggest a pro marriage/divorce counselor/mediator/lawyer to help you navigate the break up smoothly. You have not just yourselves but children to care for. Internet people can only help but so far and really what could I say that I'm not already saying to you?

Get your heads clear. You are NOT compatible -- the ethical thing to do for all parties is a break up.

Move it forward in as sane way as possible. You have your own well being and that of your children riding on it.

DO NOT RECCOMMEND

If your wife is currently in an emotional and mental health state where she is threatening suicide I DO NOT SUGGEST burdening her with personal growth challenges that her plate is much to full to bear. That's just cruel!

Even if SHE thinks she wants to go there? She may not be fit in Heart and Mind to make that kind of major life choice well. And if she's speaking from a place of "fear of losing you" and just going there because of that weak reason? It is just doomed from the get go. Do not bother to go there. Do not kid yourselves.

If YOU are going there with the weak reason of "I'm a people pleaser and I do not like yucky feelings or seeing my wife feel yucky! Ahhhh!" that is also weak reason. And it is just doomed from the get go. It will not sustain you. Do not bother to go there. Do not kid yourselves.

Weak reasons and weak foundations do not make a strong polyship.

I am in a successful Closed Polyship of 2 -- it's been running near on 20 years. In my youth I was the hinge in a lovely "V" with two mono men. (One of the V arms is my now DH).

It worked well enough. I suspect largely because as the hinge person I laid out the rules clearly enough for it to fly and we endured and wanted to be there even though the door was always open to end it. It did not fly long. After 2 years it faded to friendship for another 4? 5? years. And then my OSO gently faded out of my daily life like he faded into it. We email once a decade so far for major life events now. I miss him and love him still, but we've parted ways and mostly are memories to each other.

I broke up with HIM because he entered a hard time. LDR was killing him and he needed to date other people to alleviate the lonely. To open him to the possibility of future happiness I had to vacate the GF role then because he was monoamorous and having a hard time letting me go. It pained me. I did it anyway -- because I loved him.

I had been his exception to his rule, but his rule was still wanting to be in monoamorous AND monogamous relationship with someone. I was not it. I had to be ethical and CHECK OUT. He was PISSED OFF. Much later he thanked me for having done it. Even though the relationship with the subsequent woman did not work out, he could now with the distance of time appreciate what I had done because I did love him -- I set him free. He had to break up with her and now that he was the breaker upper he could see how gentle I'd been with him. Firm but compassionate. It's hard to do well, and he wanted to tell me that he loved me for having handled his heart gently even if at the time he was bewildered.

Doing the right, ethical thing is NOT always easy. Do it anyway.

You can click my name and cruise my blog thread for more on that story.

But honestly? I don't think either of you is fit in emotional health right now to undertake a mono-poly deal and have it work at the compromise place of "The Closed Polyship of 2" -- where she Opens herself to hear about your inner poly life and thinkings and you Close yourself to not seeing anyone else. I've been living there for years in happiness with DH because -- I have all my needs met. My poly side has expression. He has all his needs met and would tell me if he doesn't. We have an agreement to be closed in the parenting time -- and we talk about Opening in future perhaps. I like the speed we're on and so does he. He's having a long leisurely time at getting to a place where he can share me again, albeit in a different way at a different age under different agreements. I'm having a nice long leisurely time getting there too.

You guys? You don't sound like you want to run slow and leisurely. You want to go at much faster speeds.

You clearly want to see other people.

She clearly wigs out to hear about any of your inner poly life things and if just hearing about it wigs -- what would living it and dealing with you dating do? Ugh.

Do not willingly sign up for UGH.

This is just not a healthy place to Open from, and really? I don't think the return on the investment is looking all that good. So spending more time there to see if it could be a runner when it clearly isn't? Not worth it.

Break up. Better return on investment to invest in developing your good-exes friendship relationship and your coparenting well relationship.

At least the crazy drama STOPS. There's no rule that says you can't break up now, lead a different kind of life together for a while in the roles of friends/coparents and then fall in love AGAIN way later down the line and approach this again from another Time and another Place together, you know.

There's plenty of stories of people who divorce and get back together years later. Not common but hardly unusual!

GalaGirl

CielDuMatin

09-06-2012, 04:43 PM

PolyPhonic

09-06-2012, 06:23 PM

Evan, this sounds like you have some major work to do on your relationship, especially if suicide has been mentioned.

I would strongly suggest that you put any actions outside of the relationship between you and her on hold until you get things sorted out. Either with the two of you splitting, or working things through.

One of the poly adages that turns out to be exceedingly true is the mistaken belief "relationship broken, add more people". It nearly always makes things worse.Hey all I never said suicide was mentioned. I only said I was worried about the possibility. Someone else interpreted it as that my fiancee said something about that, but it was nothing of the sort. I only said I was worried about her hurting herself after seeing her trying to be destructive to our wedding dress, and that if she didn't calm down and get in the bed to calm her nerves I would need to take her to the hospital so she was safe.

Today we are dedicating ourselves to each other. Spending a whole day together. Tomorrow night the other girl is coming over. I will post more later tonight on everything. Appreciate all the responses, but we're heading out now and I'll respond later tonight.

CielDuMatin

09-06-2012, 07:32 PM

Today we are dedicating ourselves to each other. Spending a whole day together. Tomorrow night the other girl is coming over. I will post more later tonight on everything. Appreciate all the responses, but we're heading out now and I'll respond later tonight.Sorry, but it's going to take more than a day to get things even close to calmed down - why are you injecting more instability into this?

I really would strongly advise against this, until you have your current relationship to a point where things are resolved between you. Why the busting rush on this?

lolalondon

09-06-2012, 07:51 PM

evanevans

I know I'm coming in late in this debate but I just wanted to say - I can see your confusion and dismay at feeling not completely accepted by this newly found community, which you assumed would be like-minded and where instead you feel criticised. I can see a few points where your approach differs from some aspects of poly philosophy and which hasn't gone down so well here, here they are:

1. Poly emphasises equality. You'll find that many couples here have similar socio-economic status and are both independent; they are therefore able to come to decisions about their relationships as equal partners in life. The situation you describe and the one you would like to set up sounds like it involves multiple relationships with women who are younger, less experienced and much, much poorer than you are. I'm not necessarily saying there's an issue with this but there is a major power imbalance. For them to have a certain lifestyle they'll be expected to agree to the set-up you propose. This isn't exactly two equal life partners coming to a mutual decision, is it? And I have to say... it does sound colonial and patriarchal; the wealthy American in a poor country setting up a harem of young beautiful women from poor families. I don't doubt you'd love them all, or even that some of them would be happy; but it's worth asking: if given the choice and if you weren't in the more powerful position, would they choose to have a monogamous or a poly relationship?

2. Setting up a poly relationship with your equal partner involves negotiations, sometimes for years, and involves both of you setting boundaries and communicating and compromising. And as many here have said, it involves moving at the pace of the partner who is struggling the most - I would add, ESPECIALLY if that person is mono. Sounds like your lady is really struggling and like you're essentially not making any compromises; I mean, you're already planning to have a girl over a couple of days after she's had a major meltdown, your relationship is on the brink and your marriage may or may not happen, with her having no network of support and her mother recovering from major surgery... dude, can't you close things for a few months to give her time to process and to work on your relationship? I know you feel like a kid in a candy shop, but can't you slow down for the sake of the person you love, who is clearly suffering? Really? You're showing very little willingness to move at her pace, this is no way to make a mono feel secure in a poly-mono relationship.

So essentially, I think people on this forum are pushing you about the power dynamics in your proposed relationship set-up and your compassion towards/ability to compromise with your fiancée. Hope this makes sense.

BoringGuy

09-06-2012, 09:25 PM

In my opinion, it's obvious that evan has already made up his mind that he is going to fuck this other girl whether his fiancee is on-board with the poly thang or not. He wants her to be agreeable not for her own benefit, but to make it easier for him to have what he wants (evan has stated that this is about his fiancee standing in the way of him getting what he wants - i'm not making an assumption about that).

It is also clear to me that the fiancee is not emotionally or financially prepared to walk out on him, with four small children to care for and her mother unable to offer even moral support or comfort.

What a sad, sad situation for those kids.

Evan, i hope your penis is happy after all you've put this poor woman through. We here only know your side of the story, but let's say she came on and spoke privately with gala girl. Do you think she would tell gg that it's ok with her and she wants this for herself, and wants to work on her jealousy issues and insecurities so that you can both enjoy the poly dream together? I'm thinking it would be more along the lines of "i'm doing this so my man, the father of my baby, will be happy."

So sad. I really do hope i am wrong, but i'm doubting it.

CielDuMatin

09-07-2012, 12:47 PM

The situation you describe and the one you would like to set up sounds like it involves multiple relationships with women who are younger, less experienced and much, much poorer than you are. [...] And I have to say... it does sound colonial and patriarchal; the wealthy American in a poor country setting up a harem of young beautiful women from poor families.Since the poster hasn't come back and talked about this, I feel I need to comment based on what has been said already, and my scant knowledge of the Caribbean islands....

I have not visited the island that he lives on, but know that it is a vibrant tourist destination with a fairly strong ex-pat community. In general, on islands like this, the local Islanders tend to be quite religious and conservative, and wouldn't go in for an arrangement like this at all, for fear of being ostracized by their church and family. My impression of what Evan is looking for is for this to be relationship with other expats - they are usually nowhere near as poor as the locals, and nowhere near as vulnerable. Most of them will be other American citizens, or Europeans. Often expats, because of their more adventurous nature, tend to be less conservative than either the locals or other US Citizens.

My concern isn't with corrupting the locals, it's with the nature of most expats, or at least those that would be interested in an arrangement similar to what Evan is proposing.

PolyPhonic

09-07-2012, 06:19 PM

1. Poly emphasises equality. You'll find that many couples here have similar socio-economic status and are both independent; they are therefore able to come to decisions about their relationships as equal partners in life.Right. That's true. I didn't realize it but that does factor into the differences between what I am thinking/imagining, and what they are doing. In almost all scenarios I want to be the provider.The situation you describe and the one you would like to set up sounds like it involves multiple relationships with women who are younger, less experienced and much, much poorer than you are. I'm not necessarily saying there's an issue with this but there is a major power imbalance.Right. Such a good point. Thanks for focusing on this aspect, it may even reveal insecurities of my own. I appreciate you putting the spotlight on this issue.For them to have a certain lifestyle they'll be expected to agree to the set-up you propose. This isn't exactly two equal life partners coming to a mutual decision, is it? And I have to say... it does sound colonial and patriarchal;Got it. Totally see where the other members were coming from now. There is no beating around the bush on this. That is part of my vision. But personally to me, it's more about Anarchy or living free, than enslavement. I want to give the gift of having the SOs enjoy total life freedom. If they want to get a job that's cool. But the gift is that they can enjoy being free with their time to do whatever they are greatest at. Maybe that's helping the disadvantaged, maybe that's spending the whole day on Facebook, maybe that's something personal to them, I don't know. But that is a part of my vision. I'm not interested in two (or more) independent different lives having intersection for co-existing. That sounds less encompassing to me. I'm interested in a real merging of time and sharing each other's lives, not just being together when we each have nothing going on in our independent lives. Merging.the wealthy American in a poor country setting up a harem of young beautiful women from poor families. I don't doubt you'd love them all, or even that some of them would be happy; but it's worth asking: if given the choice and if you weren't in the more powerful position, would they choose to have a monogamous or a poly relationship?In some cases yes. And those are the women I would need to be sure I'm getting involved with so I can avoid power dynamics.2. Setting up a poly relationship with your equal partner involves negotiations, sometimes for years, and involves both of you setting boundaries and communicating and compromising. And as many here have said, it involves moving at the pace of the partner who is struggling the most - I would add, ESPECIALLY if that person is mono. Sounds like your lady is really struggling and like you're essentially not making any compromises;I'm definitely making compromises. That's the reason for talking. If I didn't want to compromise, I would have given her the final word and went on my merry way with my choice. But we are 100% in the midst of only talking about it.I mean, you're already planning to have a girl over a couple of days after she's had a major meltdown,This is something she (my fiancee) wants to do as well. We're only going to do what we're comfortable with and have fun only, nothing more. We're just exploring our feelings, and she wants to try again. She's not rushing any more than she's procrastinating. And there has been some overreacting on the board as to why she's been upset. She's upset at the Poly ideas, not the idea of a threesome. And the recent education has been helpful in learning how to segregate those two things and caused a degree of security about the threesome not being threatening.your relationship is on the brink and your marriage may or may not happen, with her having no network of support and her mother recovering from major surgery... dude, can't you close things for a few months to give her time to process and to work on your relationship?After this, we are going to close for about 6 weeks.I know you feel like a kid in a candy shop, but can't you slow down for the sake of the person you love, who is clearly suffering? Really? You're showing very little willingness to move at her pace, this is no way to make a mono feel secure in a poly-mono relationship.We will be "slowing down" after this weekend, which also has a skype session with a psychologist specializing in Poly/Mono relationships, scheduled.So essentially, I think people on this forum are pushing you about the power dynamics in your proposed relationship set-up and your compassion towards/ability to compromise with your fiancée. Hope this makes sense.Totally makes sense. And I believe it's 100% correct. And the power dynamic reveals something about myself I have to reflect on. Thank you.

PolyPhonic

09-07-2012, 06:23 PM

Caribbean islands....

I have not visited the island that he lives on, but know that it is a vibrant tourist destination with a fairly strong ex-pat community. In general, on islands like this, the local Islanders tend to be quite religious and conservative, and wouldn't go in for an arrangement like this at all, for fear of being ostracized by their church and family. My impression of what Evan is looking for is for this to be relationship with other expats - they are usually nowhere near as poor as the locals, and nowhere near as vulnerable. Most of them will be other American citizens, or Europeans. Often expats, because of their more adventurous nature, tend to be less conservative than either the locals or other US Citizens.

My concern isn't with corrupting the locals, it's with the nature of most expats, or at least those that would be interested in an arrangement similar to what Evan is proposing.That's good sound logic. Makes sense. Except I am actually talking about the more difficult task of finding locals who are interested in a free-er life, of free-er thinking, who are enamored by the idea of merging with a cultured westerner (even if for a limited time (months, years)). Women who are at the point where they want to explore beyond their horizons.

PolyPhonic

09-07-2012, 06:35 PM

PolyPhonic

09-07-2012, 06:36 PM

Everyone my name here is POLYPHONIC. The other name which used the name Evan, is no longer. Thanks.

Vinccenzo

09-07-2012, 07:17 PM

You are actively seeking poor people BECAUSE of the persuasion your money will have on them?!? I suspected as much but the gall to come out and admit it is stunning.

Your GF isn't going to end up agreeing with you about your Harem Island fantasy because she changed her thinking. She'd be doing it out of fear of losing your income as a resource especially now that you've had a kid together. And you're okay with decimating people's psyches in that way. Sick.

It would be one thing to strive for Jubal's life in Stranger in a Strange Land and try to promote the ideals the familial group in that novel built but what you want isn't that.

CielDuMatin

09-07-2012, 07:24 PM

But personally to me, it's more about Anarchy or living free, than enslavement. I want to give the gift of having the SOs enjoy total life freedom. If they want to get a job that's cool. But the gift is that they can enjoy being free with their time to do whatever they are greatest at.Unless it's getting romantically involved (beyond sex) with another man, and then they are out. Doesn't sound terribly free to me, but maybe that's just me...

And I don't care whether you, your partner, all your neighbours, and all the local farm animals are in favour of you doing a threesome - it's still a very bad idea, given the current precarious nature of your relationship. Two days ago you posted that you and she had broken up (even if you were exaggerating a bit) and now you are going ahead with a threesome. Bad Idea, in my opinion. You came here looking for advice about your situation, and you are getting it.

OK, your concept of having the relationship with the Islanders/Caracoles definitely puts it in a different light than if you were looking to involve expats. You have a total population of, what, around 65k folks, most of whom are expats and transients, and are hoping to find enough natives in there that are within an acceptable age-range, female, unmarried, and poly.

I think you might need to revise your plan. :)

PolyPhonic

09-07-2012, 07:31 PM

...unless it's getting romantically involved (beyond sex) with another man, and then they are out. Doesn't sound terribly free to me, but maybe that's just me...There will be a lot of "unless"-es, that's the point of a list of boundaries. However, like I mentioned before if it's a really together, cool guy, who can handle communication, feelings, others, and is basically a "poly guru" than it could be fine.

But allowing the girls the freedom to go find a guy with an attitude and a machete or worse into her life (99.9999% of the male population here)? Yeah, not that free. They can do that without me in their life. And we can agree to that before hand.

PolyPhonic

09-07-2012, 07:34 PM

Vinccenzo

09-07-2012, 07:44 PM

I don't appreciate how you communicate. :rolleyes: I'm not going to give you my time/response unless you can do so more respectfully. :cool:

I don't rely on your income to survive so I'm likely not as malleable as you'd like. And once again; this isn't Evan's Place. Its public. I don't care if I get your time or responses anymore than I care about getting a postcard from yesterday's bin bag contents.

PolyPhonic

09-07-2012, 07:52 PM

I don't rely on your income to survive so I'm likely not as malleable as you'd like. And once again; this isn't Evan's Place. Its public. I don't care if I get your time or responses anymore than I care about getting a postcard from yesterday's bin bag contents.If you're able to communicate your previous post (not this one, this one's fine) more respectfully, than I can directly answer you and your "you" comments. :rolleyes: If you don't need that, than by all means just spout your jaded opinions left and right. But don't expect something like that to be worth anything to anyone except yourself. :rolleyes: If you aren't sure how you were communicating was disrespectful :confused: I can let you know and give you the opportunity to re-frame. :cool:

CielDuMatin

09-07-2012, 07:57 PM

There will be a lot of "unless"-es, that's the point of a list of boundaries. However, like I mentioned before if it's a really together, cool guy, who can handle communication, feelings, others, and is basically a "poly guru" than it could be fine.

But allowing the girls the freedom to go find a guy with an attitude and a machete or worse into her life (99.9999% of the male population here)? Yeah, not that free. They can do that without me in their life. And we can agree to that before hand.There is a huge gulf between the two.

Privilege is not only a position of superiority, but it should also be used as a position of responsibility. Based on what you have written, and what little I know of the island you are on, you are most definitely in a position of privilege there. I think that you have some other stuff that you need to work through in order to make this work in any sustainable, moral way.

I'll give you another scenario about focusing on the locals - the "girl" may well be willing and able to move in with you, but since her family is going to be living within a few miles of you, are you prepared to deal with them when they arrive at your doorstep with some massive concerns (possibly backed up with some associated hardware) about what you are doing with their daughter/sister? Expats would be far less of this sort of problem, since they tend to have less immediate local ties.

It's one thing to have the locals be maids, gardeners and cooks, quite another to be in a relationship with them.

nycindie

09-07-2012, 08:04 PM

I am actually talking about . . . finding locals who are . . . enamored by the idea of merging with a cultured westerner . . .

You being the "cultured westerner" who would save them from themselves? Did you really mean to say such a thing? If so, your views are clearly those of a supremacist, and elitist, which is rather disgusting. While you indeed may be from a different culture than the locals, do not for a moment believe that you are more cultured, as in, more advanced, more sophisticated, or superior in any way -- nor that any of the local islanders would want to be "merged" with you for any reason other than to take your money and laugh at you behind your back.

CielDuMatin

09-07-2012, 08:14 PM

nor that any of the local islanders would want to be "merged" with you for any reason other than to take your money and laugh at you behind your back.This was one of the concerns that I raised wayyy back when. You may think that they are with you out of love, etc., but the imbalance of privilege is going to attract those that want a rich sugar-daddy to provide for them, buy nice things, until they find a real husband. It's just not going to be sustainable on that basis, as far as I can see, unless you have an ever-changing cast of characters, like the Playboy Mansion (I believe that you said that Hefner was one of your idols)

If Hefner polyamorous?

1onobugga

09-07-2012, 08:38 PM

ADD NEW LIFESTYLE IDEAS TO THE MIX (for adding crazy pressure):
So then we started watching THE GIRLS NEXT DOOR, POLYAMORY (The Showtime Show), and reading about that lifestyle and I completely realized that was for me and that here on the island I could easily go so far as to setup a kind of den of girls if I wanted to. It'd be very easy down here to do that.

Does not sound like you're ready for poly either. It's more like using the term to your advantage to be able to sleep around with a "den" of women. Would you be understanding if your "wife" told you that she wanted a den of "men"?

Sorry for being so blunt!

PolyPhonic

09-07-2012, 08:42 PM

There is a huge gulf between the two.Sorry but I missed the context of what the two points with a gulf between them was? Let me know, sorry, mind is wandering today...Privilege is not only a position of superiority, but it should also be used as a position of responsibility.Absolutely. I love how you said that. Maybe doing what I'm thinking is new to me and I need to learn how to do it responsibly, but I am a responsible person and I am interested in learning how to do this responsibly. But that is probably an inescapable position of mine, that it's a dynamic of privilege. But I'm a person trying to remain humble despite that fact, and willing to learn how to work with that responsibly. You guys are making me feel like Hurley in Lost. lol. It's not a curse. :oBased on what you have written, and what little I know of the island you are on, you are most definitely in a position of privilege there. I think that you have some other stuff that you need to work through in order to make this work in any sustainable, moral way.Yeah and these are the kinds of discussions and reflections I need to be having with people, such as yourself. So I really appreciate bringing that up. Some things we can't see ourselves so easily.I'll give you another scenario about focusing on the locals - the "girl" may well be willing and able to move in with you, but since her family is going to be living within a few miles of you (or less), are you prepared to deal with them when they arrive at your doorstep with some massive concerns (possibly backed up with some associated hardware)lolabout what you are doing with their daughter/sister? Expats would be far less of this sort of problem, since they tend to have less immediate local ties.Yes and in fact I can just make sure to clear everything with the entire family each time. I think that would be a good idea.

As far as Expats as an option, there are two reasons I don't like that. 1) I can honestly pidgeon hole the expats here as hippies, or societal rejects, or already happily married, mostly white people. And 2) I am not attracted to that kind of disheveled people, let alone whites. 3) I've explored what I like and I prefer Latinas (although not the hot-blooded ones). 4) I really like the idea of the Robin Hood dynamic. It makes me feel good considering my position.It's one thing to have the locals be maids, gardeners and cooks, quite another to be in a relationship with them.Hmm, not sure how to interpret that, but I know what you mean.

CielDuMatin

09-07-2012, 09:13 PM

Sorry but I missed the context of what the two points with a gulf between them was?What I was saying was that there is a huge gulf between "poly gurus" and mad-men with axes. There are some quite reasonable guys in there who probably can "get" poly quite well who might complement your living situation well. For example, when you have to go off-island for some function it might be good if you have a man around the house that you can trust to make sure that things run smoothly.

I'm not saying do it, just that you maybe should be open-minded to the possibility. It might also show that this is more about egalitarian relationship dynamics that about an ego-boost for yourself "look how many women I have in my thrall", which is the perception at least some on here have gained from what you have written.

Maybe doing what I'm thinking is new to me and I need to learn how to do it responsibly, but I am a responsible person and I am interested in learning how to do this responsibly.OK, often you can learn from other experiences - do you have some good models of relationships from your life that you can base things on - folks who you have looked at and said to yourself "this is a Good Relationship"? How did those relationships look?

But that is probably an inescapable position of mine, that it's a dynamic of privilege. But I'm a person trying to remain humble despite that fact, and willing to learn how to work with that responsibly.You can not escape your privilege. What you can do, though, is to learn about what it is and isn't and how to shape your life so that you don't abuse what you have.

Example - someone who is very wealthy (like Hefner) is going to tend to have fantastic-looking women around him. To anybody outside of it, it's fairly obvious that they are essentially gold-diggers, but he seems oblivious to it, thinking that they love him for his spirit - massive ego-boost. Essentially in a situation like that, his privilege is what is drawing them in, not his spirit. Learning to differentiate the two *from the inside* is very difficult, but I would suggest a vital skill.

The gold-diggers are going to try to limit the number of other women that are around - because while love may be infinite, money isn't and they don't really want to share this with others.

Setting yourself up from a position of privilege and being a sort of "charity" (what you call the "Robin Hood dynamic") in return for what appears to be a romantic relationship is problematic on many levels. Because you are getting something highly significant in return, not just doing it out of the goodness of your heart.

Yes and in fact I can just make sure to clear everything with the entire family each time. I think that would be a good idea.And if they say "no f-ing way", which I suspect most of them will - what do you do then?

PolyPhonic

09-07-2012, 09:22 PM

You being the "cultured westerner" who would save them from themselves? Did you really mean to say such a thing? If so, your views are clearly those of a supremacist, and elitist, which is rather disgusting.OMG here we go again. You don't live here. I do. If you did, you would get what I'm talking about. I am not a racist, bigot, supremacist, elitist, or any of that. But if you are trying to tell me that a homeless orphaned boy on the street knows what an Andy Warhol is, you're really just projecting some emotions and not using your head.

BoringGuy

09-07-2012, 09:24 PM

This is priceless - watching evan try to explain himself and backpeddle and making himself look like a bigger [ad-hominem] with each successive reply.

Keep it coming.

BoringGuy

09-07-2012, 09:29 PM

OMG here we go again. You don't live here. I do. If you did, you would get what I'm talking about. I am not a racist, bigot, supremacist, elitist, or any of that. But if you are trying to tell me that a homeless orphaned boy on the street knows what an Andy Warhol is, you're really just projecting some emotions and not using your head.

So, are you saying that you want to sponsor local homeless orphan boys with art scholarships?

That would have to be the most noble thing you said since you arrived here.

Except you probably didn't mean it that way.

PolyPhonic

09-07-2012, 09:32 PM

And if they say "no f-ing way", which I suspect most of them will - what do you do then?More fish in the sea.

CielDuMatin

09-07-2012, 09:35 PM

More fish in the sea.If you had the ocean around you to select from, then yes, but you are on a small island, with a local native population who know each other probably quite well. Word will spread. I think that the actual number of candidates (as I stated earlier) is actually going to be very small. If you require the family (which may include extended family) to agree to this, I think that you are rapidly approaching zero viable people for you.

PolyPhonic

09-07-2012, 09:54 PM

This is priceless - watching evan try to explain himself and backpeddle and making himself look like a bigger [ad-hominem] with each successive reply.The same thing happened when I said I was probably the most mature man on the island. It did not mean that I think so highly of myself that I think I'm the most mature man in the world. Just that here, it's not difficult to take the title. Down here there are people that are wrecks of self-esteem being coupled with Latino "Machistas". It's a vortex of immaturity and ignorance. And having arrived I am a "prince among thieves" so to speak. I have the experience to be able to say so. Maybe that's arrogant, but I think someone was asking me and so that's why I had to say that. I was just being honest and open. I'm not going to not say something informative just because I can't readily figure out a more PC way to frame it in the worry that people will think less of me if I say it bluntly. If people want to hang me by my words, that's their own ignorance actually.

PolyPhonic

09-07-2012, 09:56 PM

If you had the ocean around you to select from, then yes, but you are on a small island, with a local native population who know each other probably quite well. Word will spread. I think that the actual number of candidates (as I stated earlier) is actually going to be very small. If you require the family (which may include extended family) to agree to this, I think that you are rapidly approaching zero viable people for you.I cede to your experience, but in my experience here, flirting with the chicks, forming friendships, meeting families, I believe they are a lot more willing to let their daughters have a boost in life than you seem to think. Maybe it's good timing, or the people I pick up on, but only time will tell. I will keep your perception in my pocket at all times though ;)

PolyPhonic

09-07-2012, 10:00 PM

So, are you saying that you want to sponsor local homeless orphan boys with art scholarships?

That would have to be the most noble thing you said since you arrived here.

Except you probably didn't mean it that way.
That would be a different forum. Here we talk about love, sex, relationships, poly, etc. But I guess you could open a dialogue up on how Philanthropy compares to the concept of Compersion. If you even care to be serious on this forum. That might be worth discussing, instead of sarcastic cliffhangers.

PolyPhonic

09-07-2012, 10:06 PM

Another thing about my own behavior here on the forum as interpreted by others who have been here for a long time: This is new to me. And I think it's probably within reason that part of opening up can be opening up too much. Overextending ideas. Seeing what happens when you embrace ideas that are new to you or that you thought of, only to find out you get bit back. Part of the growth process I would think.

BoringGuy

09-07-2012, 10:38 PM

That would be a different forum. Here we talk about love, sex, relationships, poly, etc. But I guess you could open a dialogue up on how Philanthropy compares to the concept of Compersion. If you even care to be serious on this forum. That might be worth discussing, instead of sarcastic cliffhangers.

Who died and made you a moderator here?

You should start your own forum for rich white men who want to start harems of poor local girls in small third-world countries. Then you can be in complete control and any men who don't agree with you can be turned away. Young Latin women will be encouraged to stay.

PolyPhonic

09-07-2012, 11:12 PM

Who died and made you a moderator here?It's just called having a clue.

PolyPhonic

09-07-2012, 11:29 PM

Who died and made you a moderator here?FORUM GUIDELINES:
"These discussion boards were founded to provide space for all manner of discussion about polyamory"

"The founder and moderation staff hope that site members can find kindred souls to offer support and insight in a civil and possibly friendly, caring fashion"

You're free to continue disrespecting their wishes. I have no problem with you as a person. Only that you are disappointing me, them, and other people here who wish to make this an informative place for the Poly community. I am only making suggestions to you to honor the privilege of being a member here by following their wishes. If not, don't blame me when people such as myself tell you you are off topic, rude, uncaring, and other things the moderators themselves might tell you if they had to take the time to intervene.

BoringGuy

09-07-2012, 11:30 PM

It's just called having a clue.

I think you should go watch more Showtime, HBO, and Pay Per View. It's what you seem to have a clue about.

Don't worry about the moderators, they're capable of handling this place without any help from you. They do not need you to keep people in "the zone". Save that for your den of girls.

CielDuMatin

09-07-2012, 11:43 PM

Any chance we could quit the fighting and talk about the issues? BoringGuy I find that you are being extremely confrontational, and I would appreciate it if you either contributed to discussing the issues at hand or stay away from the thread, if it triggers you so badly.

This forum IS about polyamory, which includes love and relationships, and is not about folks' philanthropic activities, unless somehow relevant. Nobody died and made anybody new moderator - discussion of relationships of all types is what the forum is for. Could we have a little less combativeness, please?

PolyPhonic, part of the problem I see here is that your background, upbringing and lifestyle are so fundamentally different from nearly everyone on here (and most of society). As a consequence your paradigms, based on your life experiences, are very very different from others here. Some of the things that are, in your experience, completely natural and normal are triggers for others. Some of what you are seeing is this mismatch of paradigms, and have generated hostile reactions. Some of these reactions may well seem quite foreign to you - you may not realise why people are reacting so vehemently to the things you are saying.

The type of poly that you are looking for is not egalitarian - the dynamic is very much you as a leader, and having folks that are willing to acknowledge that and be happy living that way. There is a lot of emphasis on most poly fora on more egalitarian forms. These two are in conflict here.

I am doing my best to try to put myself in your shoes, given my limited experience with your style of life, trying to look at what you are thinking of through a different set of eyes. Trying to give you an outside perspective without judging you. Nobody has walked a mile in your shoes - while some may see privilege as a unadulterated good life with no concerns, I know that often this is very far from the truth.

I think that the only other major thing that I want to touch on right now is the issue of the children. Children tend to do best with a stable home life. Stability doesn't have to be one man and one woman, of course - it can be any combination of any gender. But a revolving cast of characters at home can be exceedingly disruptive to a child, especially if they witness the associated drama and other arguments. While you and your amours may well have a choice to be there, the children don't. I think that you have a responsibility to consider this in your decision-making as well.

I welcome your comments on this and other posts I have made.

BoringGuy

09-08-2012, 12:19 AM

BoringGuy

09-08-2012, 12:26 AM

I think that the only other major thing that I want to touch on right now is the issue of the children. Children tend to do best with a stable home life. Stability doesn't have to be one man and one woman, of course - it can be any combination of any gender. But a revolving cast of characters at home can be exceedingly disruptive to a child, especially if they witness the associated drama and other arguments. While you and your amours may well have a choice to be there, the children don't. I think that you have a responsibility to consider this in your decision-making as well.

I asked him this way at the beginning of this thread and even apologized if i came across as offensive and judgmental. Evan answered with a detailed list of relationships he's had with women throughout his life. This is one example of the evasiveness and "cherry-picking" that I referred to in my previous post.

To me, Evan seems very narcissistic and really seems to believe he has other people's best interest in mind, when to many of us he's just another guy who thinks money can buy love. That is what is "triggering" people on this forum.

ETA: and it's frightening that there are at least seven people who are being raised to believe that this is a healthy way to relate to other human beings. Am I still being insensitive and uncaring?

lovefromgirl

09-08-2012, 01:37 AM

Several trains of thought on this:

1. PolyPhonic's way of life =/= your average Jane Poly's way of life. I have had to get my head around this, since mine is... well, I'm probably not going to make it to any islands anytime soon.

2. What we prioritize =/= what the women in PolyPhonic's dating pool may prioritize. I wouldn't enter the type of arrangement PolyPhonic proposes unless the man in question were gay and looking for a beard; that said, I am also a bit proud, and was raised by a socialist feminist German living in America and her ex-GI husband. Needless to say, I have not got enough in common with a Caracole to understand her motives except biological sex.

3. There is a difference between a firm approach and a mean one. Allow me to assure BoringGuy that I have not fallen into anyone's thrall and can, in fact, think of the children -- they are the ones who do not get to choose what their parents do. In fact, I have asked PolyPhonic to consider them before anyone else, in PM. I am a failure as an ethical non-monogamist if I do not, firmly but calmly, raise questions regarding ethics. I am not a failure if I am able to see, at least, that this too falls under the umbrella. I am able to do that without lapsing into confrontation; I lost my temper, again in PM, because I thought something was going on that wasn't. Aggression seems needless in this case and pointless besides; PolyPhonic does not appear inclined to listen to aggression.

He's not Daffodil, all right? He's not spouting hate like "she" was ("she" turned out to be a troll account). Naiveté, perhaps, but hate? Which in any event is never quelled by more hate.

BoringGuy

09-08-2012, 02:22 AM

Serious question - you are of the opinion that when he said his wife was "cock-blocking" him, then followed up with an explanation that what he meant by it was that she was preventing him from getting something he wants - that was because of naivete and living on an island? That's what you believe? Because Evan was not raised on this Island. He was raised in the US, and spent quite a bit of time in Hollywood, according to his own account in this here very thread. They only moved to the island like two years ago, or recently than that. How do you account for this "island culture" shaping his views? I think he is just clueless, or pretending to be clueless.

Also, Love from Girl, I wasn't worried about you being in anyone's "thrall" (I couldn't have used that word because I don't even know what it means, although I'll go look it up right after I'm done writing this) or you "not thinking of the children". I'm not sure where you got that from.

ETA: From Wiki: Thrall (Old Norse þræll) was the term for a serf or unfree servant in Scandinavian culture during the Viking Age.

Excellent. I've added a new word to my vocabulary.

WhatHappened

09-08-2012, 02:36 AM

...when he said his wife was "cock-blocking" him, then followed up with an explanation that what he meant by it was that she was preventing him from getting something he wants - that was because of naivete and living on an island? ... Evan was not raised on this Island. He was raised in the US, and spent quite a bit of time in Hollywood, according to his own account in this here very thread.

If calling a woman a vulgar name, like cock-blocker or pussy-blocker, because she 'stands in the way of something he wants' is really just a different paradigm, then there's no reason to object to any other man calling women vulgar names, either, whether it's because they stand in the way of those men getting what they want, or for any other reason.

I think the objections that have gone on in this thread are not about anyone failing to understand someone else's differing paradigms. If he knew 25% of the people in Hollywood and dated 40 women there, then he's not some poor naive guy of a different culture who just didn't 'get' how disrespectful it is to call a woman a name like that.

BoringGuy

09-08-2012, 02:39 AM

lovefromgirl

09-08-2012, 03:27 AM

If calling a woman a vulgar name, like cock-blocker or pussy-blocker, because she 'stands in the way of something he wants' is really just a different paradigm, then there's no reason to object to any other man calling women vulgar names, either, whether it's because they stand in the way of those men getting what they want, or for any other reason.

Did I stammer when I said, earlier, that that sort of thing wasn't ethical? No? [edited: Or at least did I encourage that speech? Also no?] Good. Now that we're on the same page...

I think the objections that have gone on in this thread are not about anyone failing to understand someone else's differing paradigms. If he knew 25% of the people in Hollywood and dated 40 women there, then he's not some poor naive guy of a different culture who just didn't 'get' how disrespectful it is to call a woman a name like that.

I think of Hollywood and the like as insular, very different from anything I experience; yes, I think a man born and raised there could be naive. I met one myself who behaved far worse around women. Be grateful if you haven't. I think women who don't come from that background are a tremendous shock to men who do, and that PP is in for a few of those tremendous shocks. Has had a few, in fact, seeing how the women here have reacted. Nobody changes overnight. My experience with Mr. Hollywood taught me that no, respect for women is not necessarily taught there as it's taught in other environments.

It's not about being on an island -- he's an expat himself! -- as much as it is a lack of understanding of our more robust, more egalitarian women living in the middle class and below. My views are likely just as much a shock to him as his are to me, and we would never be compatible.

Since my interest is in the ethics of the matter and not in any "one true way" to do poly, all I can advise is that everything is considered carefully. Love with everyone's consent. That's the bottom line. The trappings may not be to your taste or mine, but he's got the right to try it out and see how it works.

WhatHappened

09-08-2012, 03:47 AM

Did I stammer when I said, earlier, that that sort of thing wasn't ethical? No? [edited: Or at least did I encourage that speech? Also no?] Good. Now that we're on the same page...

There's no need for snarkiness. I wasn't addressing you. I was talking about the entire shift of tone in this entire thread.

Love with everyone's consent. That's the bottom line. The trappings may not be to your taste or mine, but he's got the right to try it out and see how it works.

And this is exactly the point. Not only I, but many people, have gotten the distinct impression through the whole thread that this love is not with the consent of Evan's girlfriend, that she has not consented to live like this, but is being pushed along. Yes, of course he can try anything he likes. And I can state that I, personally, don't find it ethical to be pushing someone into this, especially someone who, with four young children (three of her own and one with him, correct?), is in a very difficult position of dependency on him, and calling them vulgar names if they don't agree.

BoringGuy

09-08-2012, 04:08 AM

And this is exactly the point. Not only I, but many people, have gotten the distinct impression through the whole thread that this love is not with the consent of Evan's girlfriend, that she has not consented to live like this, but is being pushed along. Yes, of course he can try anything he likes. And I can state that I, personally, don't find it ethical to be pushing someone into this, especially someone who, with four young children (three of her own and one with him, correct?), is in a very difficult position of dependency on him, and calling them vulgar names if they don't agree.

Also, here's the thing.

Evan is not the first person to have this particular fantasy and the financial means to realize it. But, that is getting mixed in with the REALITY which What Happened summarized just there. I have personally suggested (respectfully or at least neutrally) that Evan take his fantasy-harem plans (or whatever you call it "Generous enabling with boundaries?") to a blog thread where he can explore without the inconvenience of people disagreeing with him.

In the mean-time, OF COURSE people are going to draw on that fantasy for example and "ammunition", for lack of a nicer word, in rebuttal against Evan's OWN STORIES about condescending, disrespectful, nasty things he says to and about his wife and also through actions WHICH HE TOLD US. Nobody here is making any of this up. I could sit here all night going through this thread and quoting and highlighting where Evan has contradicted himself and ignored people's (respectful or neutral) questions, scolded people because he can dish it out but not take it, but I really don't give a crap enough to go through all that. The reason I registered on this forum was because of the threads that teach people how NOT to treat their partner(s). That is probably the reason i continue to come back to this thread. Not because I am "triggered" by this. This is totally an example of what NOT to do. Like they say, There is no "right" way to "do poly", but there are plenty of WRONG ways.

CielDuMatin

09-08-2012, 12:23 PM

Growing up and living in high levels of privilege is often very isolating. The people around you are disconnected from what most folks think of as "normal life". The rules are very different - how you talk, what you do, even the rules of relationships and "decent behaviour". A lot of relationships are highly dysfunctional, the people highly disingenuous. If you have not experienced it personally, then it can be very hard to believe just how different it is.

Is PolyPhonic going about dealing with his current relationship the best way? No, I don't believe that he is, and I have tried to respectfully point out the things that he is doing that are problematic. Is his poly dream anything like mine? No it isn't, and I think that it is fraught with all sorts of issues and impracticalities, which I have tried to calmly and respectfully point out.

PP has some decisions to make. If he wants to build his relationships based on what I have seen of the insular nature of privilege then he isn't going to find a lot of resonance here, because not a lot of people here can relate to his situation. If he wants to try to follow the paradigms of the rest of mainstream society then he has a ton of work to do with his current relationship, and adjustments to his expectations for the future.

When we react to someone's posting, we should take a thought as to what goal we are trying to achieve by reacting that way. We have a choice - we can either help him with this, providing advice, pointing out areas of caution, and behaviours that we see from our vantage point as ethically problematic, or we can mock him, pick apart his words and judge him based on our own paradigms. Which of these two achieve any sort of change in a positive direction?

ETA: This insular nature of privileged society has nothing to do with a Caribbean island - it exists in Hollywood, New York City, Spain and quite a few other places. Most of these people do move around quite a bit, because they have property in several locations.

PolyPhonic

09-08-2012, 02:09 PM

You being the "cultured westerner" who would save them from themselves? Did you really mean to say such a thing? If so, your views are clearly those of a supremacist, and elitist, which is rather disgusting. While you indeed may be from a different culture than the locals, do not for a moment believe that you are more cultured, as in, more advanced, more sophisticated, or superior in any way -- nor that any of the local islanders would want to be "merged" with you for any reason other than to take your money and laugh at you behind your back.In so many words: This just shows me how much you know.

Your communication is immature, reactive, and contains words that are caustic when coupled with your intentions. If you don't mind fooling yourself by only listening to those who support you (your family and friends), than by all means go on the rest of your life with your immature, reactive, caustic attitude. But if you are interested in maturing, and more respectful communication, you should think about what I've said and check out all the arguments you get in where you leave the argument for the "high ground". Those would be the red flags to look out for, when you behave like that in an argument.

More on topic, can you answer the following of mine in response to what you said above:

IF NOT? (responding to the part of your reply which is marked in bold red)

PolyPhonic

09-08-2012, 02:52 PM

You being the "cultured westerner" who would save them from themselves? Did you really mean to say such a thing? If so, your views are clearly those of a supremacist, and elitist, which is rather disgusting. While you indeed may be from a different culture than the locals, do not for a moment believe that you are more cultured, as in, more advanced, more sophisticated, or superior in any way -- nor that any of the local islanders would want to be "merged" with you for any reason other than to take your money and laugh at you behind your back.In the meantime, I just have to say that I think you might have a an overly egalitarian view of things around you that don't apply to egalitarinism. It seems like you no longer have any sensible opinions because you've become jaded by egalitarianism. Like you're fighting for the right for pepper to be salt.

Have you heard of IQ? Is that a myth to you, a conspiracy?

Can everyone who picks coffee be an astronaut?

Have you heard of a book called "The Bell Curve"? (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Bell_Curve) Do you think that people, due to socio-economic factors, are equally sophisticated in the ghettos of Detroit as they are at Harvard?

Do you think that brains are just...equal? That there is no difference in how they develop around different behavior and environments?

Because you abhor people with opinions or outlooks different than yourself, you get to be a bigot towards them? Don't you think that's presumptuous of you? You come across as a zealot: everything you believe, is true. You're prejudiced.

Vinccenzo

09-08-2012, 03:09 PM

OMG the smell just keeps ripening.............and anything less than pretending to not smell it is rude when dealing with people who believe they are genetically predetermined to lord over others. Its so cultured to think this way yet somehow also so naive and deserving of a good coddling?

CielDuMatin

09-08-2012, 03:30 PM

In response to my request for more respectful conversation (to quit fighting and talk about the issues):So, request denied.

In response to my request to be more accepting of all different types of polyamory, not just those with which we agree:Request denied.

These are both things that are laid out under the user guidelines of this forum, which I was trying to bring up in a respectful way to hopefully bring the discussion back on track. Since you are clearly refusing to do that, the discussion must now continue in other places.

PolyPhonic

09-08-2012, 03:38 PM

...dealing with people who believe they are genetically predetermined to lord over others...Do you think it's better for people to presumptuously call another a supremacist under the guise of "if so"? NYC didn't even wait to get an answer back about whether or not I meant "being the 'cultured westerner' who would save them from themselves". She/He just launched into his/her presumption calling me all kinds of bigoted words. I don't need to "lord over" that, or be "genetically predetermined" to say that NYC was disrespectful. And I do so, so she/he can have either better restraint in the future, or more respectful communication.

Vinccenzo

09-08-2012, 03:40 PM

The guy is trolling. He is amusing himself by playing a vulgar stereotype up so he can watch as everyone scrambles to defend views that support elitism and genetic superiority when he feigns persecution.

In other words: how funny would it be to take a bunch of anything goes sexual idealists and manipulate them into defending one of the worst shades of non monogamy known to history?

Vinccenzo

09-08-2012, 03:43 PM

Do you think it's better for people to presumptuously call another a supremacist under the guise of "if so"? NYC didn't even wait to get an answer back about whether or not I meant "being the 'cultured westerner' who would save them from themselves". She/He just launched into his/her presumption calling me all kinds of bigoted words. I don't need to "lord over" that, or be "genetically predetermined" to say that NYC was disrespectful. And I do so, so she/he can have either better restraint in the future, or more respectful communication.

I'd like to see a photo of you and your staff atop your glorious island estate with you holding up a paper bearing today's date and a piece of paper with your username written on it. Toss in your GF and some of the kiddies as gravy.

PolyPhonic

09-08-2012, 03:44 PM

"do things my way and I'll feed you and buy you things, or you can leave and I won't buy you things anymore"I don't think it's all that uncommon for relationships, marriages, to be in that structure. Where if the provider is feeling unappreciated they eventually must change things out of that discord. And there are millions of relationships across the nation of the United States alone, where one person brings home the bacon and the other takes care of house and family while they're gone. This is not outlandish. The way you describe it using flippant opinionated summarization maybe, but not if you use my words.

PolyPhonic

09-08-2012, 03:48 PM

"cherry-picking"There has been no deliberate cherry picking going on here. I even take the time to respond to the most useless of your responses. Your "cherry picking" defense is just a result of insecurities about your words not getting any attention. But that is not deliberate on my, or any others parts (as far as I can tell). It's a big thread. We're trying to spend time talking about as much as we can. I am not afraid to talk about anything. If you feel something you said or another said has been neglected, bump it up in a quote, and we'll address it. We've taken ample time to do discuss as much as we can. I can vouch for myself in saying that I try my best to answer everybody in this thread, if it even has an ounce of relevance or related relevance.

CielDuMatin

09-08-2012, 03:50 PM

I'd like to see a photo of you and your staff atop your glorious island estate with you holding up a paper bearing today's date and a piece of paper with your username written on it. Toss in your GF and some of the kiddies as gravy.Oh FFS, don't be lazy and do your own research to work out whether this is legit or not. I did.

PolyPhonic

09-08-2012, 03:51 PM

The guy is trolling. He is amusing himself by playing a vulgar stereotype up so he can watch as everyone scrambles to defend views that support elitism and genetic superiority when he feigns persecution.Not at all. There's something about you that has gotten you to the point of getting me all wrong. You have jumped to a judgement about me too soon. I can tell you honestly, you have got me wrong. From my heart, what you describe is not at all my motivation for being here, posting this thread, or replying to anyone. You've got me completely wrong.In other words: how funny would it be to take a bunch of anything goes sexual idealists and manipulate them into defending one of the worst shades of non monogamy known to history?Not what I'm interested in. I have a very open and accepting mind.

PolyPhonic

09-08-2012, 03:55 PM

I'd like to see a photo of you and your staff atop your glorious island estate with you holding up a paper bearing today's date and a piece of paper with your username written on it. Toss in your GF and some of the kiddies as gravy.Oh my goodness. You really think I am just a troll like that? This has been a serious discussion from the get go.

(however that was funny! lol) ;)

lolalondon

09-08-2012, 04:05 PM

Have you heard of a book called "The Bell Curve"? (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Bell_Curve) Do you think that people, due to socio-economic factors, are equally sophisticated in the ghettos of Detroit as they are at Harvard?

Do you think that brains are just...equal? That there is no difference in how they develop around different behavior and environments?[/COLOR]

Yes, I’m aware of the Bell Curve. It’s likely that many people on here are. I wrote a critique of it when doing my postgrad in psychology. I think it’s interesting how people like co-author Murray (who opposes any sort of welfare state or state help for the poor) can find “proof” that people from ethnic minorities are, well, simply, just less intelligent than Westerners. Of course this means there’s no need to have policies to help them do better; they are poor because they’re not as clever and therefore have less of a potential to succeed. Incredible stuff, and on par with the brain size theories which (conveniently) hypothesise that black people and women are less intelligent than white men. I say convenient because, of course, IQ testing – and even the concept of IQ – is a paradigm which was devised and peer reviewed by… white Western men, for the most part. The fact that the sort of knowledge and skill tested is socially and culturally relative, and that they are not even considering the equal validity of other forms of knowing or understanding in other parts of the world is incredible… well, I could go on, but I won’t. Because as has been rightly pointed out this is a forum about polyamory.

But I will add this: it seems to me that Evan is a essentially a polygamist, not a polyamorist. Nothing wrong with that, but it is different.

Vinccenzo

09-08-2012, 04:06 PM

Oh FFS, don't be lazy and do your own research to work out whether this is legit or not. I did.

Oh call it a show of good faith for others. I've already come to my own conclusions. I don't care enough about out polying anyone to be civil in the face of sexual slavery. I'll leave that to you.

CielDuMatin

09-08-2012, 04:09 PM

But I will add this: it seems to that Evan is a essentially a polygamist, not a polyamorist. Nothing wrong with that, but it is different.I am curious as to what you see as the distinction.

My understanding is that polygamy is marrying more than one, a "plural marriage". This include polygyny (one man, many women married to that man) and polyandry (one woman, many men married to the woman).

Polyamory is loving more than one. There are no subtypes based gender, since they all get lumped into the same thing.

So based on my understanding, since he is not looking to marry any of the women, and since there is a requirement that love be involved, it falls under polyamory for me.

Is your understanding of the definitions different?

PolyPhonic

09-08-2012, 04:31 PM

PolyPhonic, part of the problem I see here is that your background, upbringing and lifestyle are so fundamentally different from nearly everyone on here (and most of society). As a consequence your paradigms, based on your life experiences, are very very different from others here. Some of the things that are, in your experience, completely natural and normal are triggers for others. Some of what you are seeing is this mismatch of paradigms, and have generated hostile reactions. Some of these reactions may well seem quite foreign to you - you may not realise why people are reacting so vehemently to the things you are saying.I know what you mean, but I don't really think so. And I mean that from a place of considering what you said from the outside looking in. I grew up in Orange County the son of a widowed mother, with one sister. After mom remarried when I was 8, that brought in two step-sisters. I learned to live very comfortably around girl power, with my 3 sisters and my mom around me all the time while step-dad worked. We struggled to get by and lived in an apartment for years in a small beach town. I went to public school with regular kids, mostly hispanic and grew up non-racist to the point of defending my friends when they faced prejudice. I was treated special by my mom, because of my talents, gifts, and IQ, but I rejected being treated like that opting for being the same as everyone else. I could have went the route of MIT and trying for a Nobel Prize, but my passion for music and psychology led me to writing music for movies. I led a pretty typical life with friends I didn't choose necessarily. Good people from all walks of the lower-middle class. My first wife was from Michigan, a very typical mid-westerner and we'd spend ample time together in Michigan with her various family in Chicago as well.

The fact that I now live on an island in the Caribbean, a common fantasy, is simply because I was daring enough to try. I have friends who want to do the same, and I tell them how easy it is, and they are surprised. They thought they had to become millionaires to have such a dream come true. But you can live like a King here, in a mansion, for less than $2k a month. That is very typical of most retirements in the Caribbean. When they hear that, they're view of me being so different from them disappears and doing what I'm doing is not so far from their reach. It just so happens that I work over the internet, in an industry where I get income for the rest of my life for the hours I put in. It also just so happens that I worked 120+ hours a week for 10 years to get here. I don't think any of my path has been all that different than anyone else's. I've been through pretty much the same kinds of social experiences.

I've had to endure a couple of tragedies, but I was smarter than to get too emotional about them and let it consume me, and instead continued on with my life. I really don't think I'm all too different than any other person in California where I was raised. Maybe people in California are "so different" than the rest of the USA? But 1 in 10 people in the United States of America lives in California, so I think being 1 of 10 people really can't make me that many different degrees of separation difference between the rest of us all.