The tides have turned

[nightrush]

Sadly, the closed triad had to split and now we are in a very interesting situation. Two of us, are madly in love and we are trying to create an equal Vee relationship. Part of the issue of why we cannot do this is my current partners view towards loyalty... Brief history..

Ex-Partner A = The person that i meet first and brought me into the relationship
Partner B= Man i am madly in love with
Partner C = Me

Partner A + B have been together for 16 years, the triad lasted 9 months and now partner B and myself are attempting to go forward, and partner A + B are staying together.

So, i ask those wise and with more experience, is it wrong for me to ask for equitable share of everything. Partner A and i did not stay together due to him not being in love with me that way, however he says he still greatly cares for me and i am part of his family.

What i have told partner B is that if he is unable to give up the loyalty view that this is going nowhere fast. The way it was proposed to me is no matter what i would have to go away, so to speak. That does not work for me, if partner A in 5 years has an issue he never spoke about (which he does hold things in and its like pulling teeth at times) then he should leave, or whoever causes the issues, problems and so on.

Parter B has made it very clear to both of us, he NEEDS both of us to be happy. Partner A has taken off our ring already, has gotten quiet towards me and is feeling insecure... like i am replacing him... even after multiple times telling him i could never replace him.

I have physical needs, emotional needs, that cannot be meet right now, as the breakup just took place a week ago and partner a and b live together. I understand that this should be only temporary, but the goal still has to be for us all to live together and to sleep in one bed.

So any ideas, advice, anything... would help us... we are trying to create our Vee foundation.

[snowmelt]

Your goal is for everyone to live together and sleep in the same bed. Partner A is not in love with you. A says if anything goes wrong you have to leave. B wants both of you. The loyalty thing.

These are all separate pieces that don't fit together. What is the loyalty thing? Is the reason for your post to ask for help fitting these pieces together?

[nightrush]

Your goal is for everyone to live together and sleep in the same bed. Partner A is not in love with you. A says if anything goes wrong you have to leave. B wants both of you. The loyalty thing.

These are all separate pieces that don't fit together. What is the loyalty thing? Is the reason for your post to ask for help fitting these pieces together?


Yes part of it is to help me put everything together and the other part is to see if this can be done. We live in different homes and have spent weeks together and they flowed nicely when we were a triad. The funny thing is, the last 2 months we have been more of a Vee than anything, as partner A and myself have been having issues and just were trying to force something that was not there.

Also, am i asking for too much on partner B, telling him that if we are not 100% equal and he always falls back to partner A that i cannot do this?

[WhatHappened]

Parter B has made it very clear to both of us, he NEEDS both of us to be happy. Partner A has taken off our ring already, has gotten quiet towards me and is feeling insecure... like i am replacing him... even after multiple times telling him i could never replace him.

I guess I, too, am a little confused. You're saying what you want, what A wants, what B wants, and it sounds like they simply aren't compatible, and in cases, mutually exclusive.

I suppose I'm a stickler for accuracy, but B does not 'need' you both to be happy, he won't die if you're not both happy. He very much wants it, but emphatically saying he 'needs' it is useless if what you and A want is mutually exclusive. Is he trying to say you and A must sort out your differences to B's satisfaction? Or simply that you must each decide what you want for happiness and not put him in the middle? Again, it sounds like you and A want two opposite things. :confused:

[nightrush]

I guess I, too, am a little confused. You're saying what you want, what A wants, what B wants, and it sounds like they simply aren't compatible, and in cases, mutually exclusive.

I suppose I'm a stickler for accuracy, but B does not 'need' you both to be happy, he won't die if you're not both happy. He very much wants it, but emphatically saying he 'needs' it is useless if what you and A want is mutually exclusive. Is he trying to say you and A must sort out your differences to B's satisfaction? Or simply that you must each decide what you want for happiness and not put him in the middle? Again, it sounds like you and A want two opposite things. :confused:

A since the breakup has not said what he wants... it was when we were a triad i agreed to leaving if we had issues. I can no longer agree to that, so that is why we are here... Partner B says he does need both of us and i do believe him or i would not be using this much energy...There is a past that would take too long to explain between A + B

[CielDuMatin]

So at some point you made a commitment to both of them that if there were issues you would leave. A is expecting you to live up to the commitment you made. So why do you not feel that you can live up to the commitment you made?

If it's because B is not happy with that commitment, that's not your problem, but his.

When you say "we" are trying to create an equal "V", it's sounding more like two of you want to but the third absolutely does not. That isn't going to work, no matter how hard you try. In fact, the more energy you put into it, the worse things are going to get.

I agree with other posters - this isn't going to work.

[nightrush]

B and i have made the decision to not include A yet on the discussions, until we know where we are going with this... B has been talking to A, but have not got into great detail... A did tell me and B that he would not issue an ultimatum if this is what B needs to be happy... That he is open to what B needs to be happy.


The reason that will not work as i do not want it that way anymore... B and I are starting with a "clean slate" so to speak...

[snowmelt]

By requiring 100% equality, you are making a demand that is creating stress and being unrealistic. People are all different by the very nature of being human. Discovering the differences and honoring them is a big part of all happy relationships. The three of you seem to be tossing a lot of demands at each other. Your demands are based on your fear of not having your needs met. The demands A and B are making are based on their fears of not having their needs met.

I recommend talking honestly about the fears underneath those demands, instead of talking about the specific demands. That means you tell A and B what your fears are, and ask each of them to tell you what their fears are. That does not mean demanding they tell you what their fears are. Make the assumption that everyone wants this arrangement and is looking for the opportunity to be in harmony with it. Making demands is an attempt to "correct" a situation they believe is not meeting their needs, which indicates the person who is making the demands wants things to work, they just may not be sure how to get there.

[nightrush]

Snowmelt,

That is very good advice and after i find out how the talk with A and B goes tonight i may have to interject this.

[WhatHappened]

Partner B says he does need both of us and i do believe him or i would not be using this much energy...There is a past that would take too long to explain between A + B

Okay, I misread that and thought B was saying that both of you must be happy, rather than he needs both of you in his life.

[WhatHappened]

B and i have made the decision to not include A yet on the discussions, until we know where we are going with this...

Which probably isn't going to go over so well with A when he finds out, and will only make the situation worse.

[nightrush]

Okay, I misread that and thought B was saying that both of you must be happy, rather than he needs both of you in his life.


Yes he is saying that he needs both of us to be happy.

[nightrush]

Which probably isn't going to go over so well with A when he finds out, and will only make the situation worse.

A knows that we are not including him, we are very upfront. B and i decided that we needed to think though this and talk though this and see if we can accomplish this. If we are unable to, why should we drag A into something and cause his more pain.

[snowmelt]

nightrush,

I've been reading this thread, and I want to clear up something. I would make the assumption that everyone wants to talk, but I would make no assumption at all about what kind of relationship configuration the three of you have when you find what works. If you're going to aim for a specific outcome, aim for everyone having a chance to speak their truth and to hear what the others have to say. Let things go where they need to from there. Go with the waves, instead of trying to tell the waves where to go. You're looking for harmony, not a specific configuration.

[nightrush]

nightrush,

I've been reading this thread, and I want to clear up something. I would make the assumption that everyone wants to talk, but I would make no assumption at all about what kind of relationship configuration the three of you have when you find what works. If you're going to aim for a specific outcome, aim for everyone having a chance to speak their truth and to hear what the others have to say. Let things go where they need to from there. Go with the waves, instead of trying to tell the waves where to go. You're looking for harmony, not a specific configuration.


I agree that everyone has to speak what they feel inside and your example is a great one

[GalaGirl]

Whoa. My head hurts just reading that.

If I understand right. A, B, and C (you) were a 9 mos triad.

Now since A and you come to find that you are not romantically compatible, but better off dialing it down to friends, you are left wondering how to cope.

Because B is the hinge then. Still with you and A.

Then this is made complicated because A & B live together? Where do YOU live?
The break up is only a week old.

I think everyone could spent a little while just chilling out.

While thinking about how to mourn the ending of the previous configuration with OTHER people -- family, friends, etc. Give the triad people some space to clear the air, let the emotional storm blow on through.

Also gives you a change to sort out your wants, needs, limits for the first 3 mos. (One page, bullet list, each person.)

You seen to WANT

That the V end up cozy like sharing not just a house but a bed? (That's kind of unrealistic to me at this stage of the game)

To be let off the hook for "leaving" under previous agreement. (I would "leave" if only in spirit to end previous contract. Rest a bit, and then try to draw up new contract. I don't know if you can take a vacation, or dial contact down to phone/lunch visits but no sleepovers -- just to create a sense of closure for the previous configuration before trying to move on to the next.


B WANTS:

Both A and C happy.

A WANTS

Willing to entertain hearing what B needs to be happy to see if he could be on board? (Or is be being cling-on and just going with something he does NOT want so as not to lose B? Be honest here.)


So far I'm hearing WANTS.

I am not seeing anyone listing NEEDS for HOW to accomplish the goal.

Like


I need this to move super slow.
I need a time apart to bring closure to the previous
I need to not be living together while we try on this V so I don't have to look at NRE gushies
I need to eventually (A? B? C?) date other people?
What are the actual NEEDS of the people here?


I'm also not hearing anyone expressing LIMITS. Soft limits that can be negotiated in time, or hard limits.


I have a soft limit -- I cannot live together right now. Too weird. I could negotiate that again later down in time. (??)
A is not good at communication and owning his own bag? That would be a limit to the success of the enterprise. How will this be addressed? How will he do the work with the support and nurture of the rest? Because everyone has to own a piece of THAT elephant in some way.


I don't know what kind of new framework you will come to but do think about how to want to agree to be together -- rights and responsibilities (http://www.polyamory.com/forum/member.php?u=49794) to hold up so you can be in right relationship with each other. Those are mine.


I'm sorry to hear you had a break up. But I hope you can navigate it smoothly to where you all need to be at next.

GL!

hugs
GalaGirl

[nightrush]

Whoa. My head hurts just reading that.

If I understand right. A, B, and C (you) were a 9 mos triad.

Now since A and you come to find that you are not romantically compatible, but better off dialing it down to friends, you are left wondering how to cope.

Because B is the hinge then. Still with you and A.

Then this is made complicated because A & B live together? Where do YOU live?
The break up is only a week old.

I think everyone could spent a little while just chilling out.

While thinking about how to mourn the ending of the previous configuration with OTHER people -- family, friends, etc. Give the triad people some space to clear the air, let the emotional storm blow on through.

Also gives you a change to sort out your wants, needs, limits for the first 3 mos. (One page, bullet list, each person.)

You seen to WANT

That the V end up cozy like sharing not just a house but a bed? (That's kind of unrealistic to me at this stage of the game)

To be let off the hook for "leaving" under previous agreement. (I would "leave" if only in spirit to end previous contract. Rest a bit, and then try to draw up new contract. I don't know if you can take a vacation, or dial contact down to phone/lunch visits but no sleepovers -- just to create a sense of closure for the previous configuration before trying to move on to the next.


B WANTS:

Both A and C happy.

A WANTS

Willing to entertain hearing what B needs to be happy to see if he could be on board? (Or is be being cling-on and just going with something he does NOT want so as not to lose B? Be honest here.)


So far I'm hearing WANTS.

I am not seeing anyone listing NEEDS for HOW to accomplish the goal.

Like


I need this to move super slow.
I need a time apart to bring closure to the previous
I need to not be living together while we try on this V so I don't have to look at NRE gushies
I need to eventually (A? B? C?) date other people?
What are the actual NEEDS of the people here?


I'm also not hearing anyone expressing LIMITS. Soft limits that can be negotiated in time, or hard limits.


I have a soft limit -- I cannot live together right now. Too weird. I could negotiate that again later down in time. (??)
A is not good at communication and owning his own bag? That would be a limit to the success of the enterprise. How will this be addressed? How will he do the work with the support and nurture of the rest? Because everyone has to own a piece of THAT elephant in some way.


I don't know what kind of new framework you will come to but do think about how to want to agree to be together -- rights and responsibilities (http://www.polyamory.com/forum/member.php?u=49794) to hold up so you can be in right relationship with each other. Those are mine.


I'm sorry to hear you had a break up. But I hope you can navigate it smoothly to where you all need to be at next.

GL!

hugs
GalaGirl

Gala,

My head hurts at time when i think about this and i think that each persons relationship is different. I think i have an advantage is that i am a Hr professional and i have learned how to separate emotion from logic, as that is what i have to do every day. This allows me to see what happened and not get my personal emotions all tied up into it.

I do like your list and i think i may submit that to both of them and see what they come back with.

A little more history, Partner a and b were "open" and that is where i came in. Partner A would be devastated every time partner b went out and played and partner b was ok with going on the next 30 years not having partner a not filling his needs and being in an open relationship.

I guess i serve a great purpose, that is to help their relationship, i learned what unconditional love was though them. Sadly, all of my other relationships were more like business. Older partner got a cute younger guy and i got taken care of. Now that i am past that stage in my life, the man that introduced me to unconditional love, i do not want to loose, that is why i need him. Partner B (the one that introduced me to unconditional love) says he needs both of us, and he has never felt this way about 2 people....

Again headache yes.

So i live about 30 minutes away from them and i am trying to give those that need the space, space and those that need attention, attention...

Its funny... i never thought this would be this much work, however, the payoff of happiness is worth it all.

[CielDuMatin]

I don't think you have addressed what for me is a key part of this yet (and if you have, then please point me at it, because I am missing it).

When the three of you got together you made a commitment that, should anything go wrong, you would leave. Since that point, there has been no discussion among all three of you (since the promise was made with you all) about changing that. What it sounds like is that you and B have decided together that it's not going to be that way, but A never agreed to that.

Have I got that right?

[nightrush]

I don't think you have addressed what for me is a key part of this yet (and if you have, then please point me at it, because I am missing it).

When the three of you got together you made a commitment that, should anything go wrong, you would leave. Since that point, there has been no discussion among all three of you (since the promise was made with you all) about changing that. What it sounds like is that you and B have decided together that it's not going to be that way, but A never agreed to that.

Have I got that right?

No decisions have been made yet. However, seeing as i am giving up my home, i made it a requirement now that i will not be second.

[CielDuMatin]

No decisions have been made yet. However, seeing as i am giving up my home, i made it a requirement now that i will not be second.So you have unilaterally decided to renege on your commitment, because it doesn't suit you any more.

If I were A, I wouldn't be very happy about the fact that you didn't hold up to this commitment.

Did they agree to this new requirement at all?

[nightrush]

So you have unilaterally decided to renege on your commitment, because it doesn't suit you any more.

If I were A, I wouldn't be very happy about the fact that you didn't hold up to this commitment.

Did they agree to this new requirement at all?


B understands now why i require that and is in agreement with me. Nothing was ever on paper, we just had talked about it being that way, both B and i.

A at one point was going to leave B's house (thats whos house we will all live in) and let us live there and be happy... again..complicated...my head hurts

[NovemberRain]

I just have one thought. It's not really unconditional if the condition is 'everyone has to be equal.' or whatever the condition is.

Personally, I don't believe in unconditional love. Well, that's not quite right. I believe in unconditional love, but I absolutely do not believe in unconditional relationships. I will love CBF forever, and I will always forgive him anything. What I won't do is live with him until conditions are met. I had to get over the condition that someone I loved should grow into living with me, in order for me to love FBF again. I love everyone that I've ever loved, I can't help loving them. However, most of them are gone from my life, and not nearly all of them are gone because I put them out. They left. Doesn't mean I don't love them. I couldn't meet their conditions.

[GalaGirl]

I guess I just do not see it as complicated. Hard to feel, sure. Hard to articulate, sure. But basically it boils down to everyone sitting down to SPIT IT OUT.

First: Where do we come from?

Take the tally, hold into account on the old system what needs to be held. What played well? What did not? What do we keep moving forward? What has to be discarded.

Next up: What are we?

Wants, needs, limits from each of the cast of characters please. We've evolved, we have grown. What are we NOW? In this time? In this place?

Next up: Where are we going?

Given the first two bits, what do we want to be next? What is the best next configuration? Is everyone on board? Everyone in or out -- honestly? How do we best navigate changes/transition? What negotiation does there need to be?

Because there is a time and place for everything. And everything in its time and place. And you may come to find that stars align and can move it forward now. Or it may be the right time, but not the place. Or the right place in your lives but not the best time. Or some time of mix and match with the players -- some at right place/time in their lives for this change and others just not.

Hang in there. Breathe. Take it slow. But an honest assessment of all people needs to happen.

And I find these conversations are easier when people take a breath, and Speak Their Truth to THEMSELVES first. Then to their Others... out loud. If even at a whisper.

GL!
GalaGirl

[nightrush]

Thank you all for your advice and kind words during this transition period.

I do believe in unconditional love, however that does not mean i have to be with that person. I love Ex partner A and he will always hold a place in my heart, however i know that we are past that period of romantic love. Am i open to it coming back to a closed triad, yes. Do i expect it, no. However, without that little bit of hope, what else is there to live for? When logic fails, what else can i use to prop myself up and continue to move forward other than faith and hope.

We are all sitting down tonight and discussing where we can go from here. I have made my conditions clear and i know i am putting a lot of pressure on partner B, however, i feel it is wrong to allow someone to be left in the dark on the stance of everything for such a long period of time.

[CielDuMatin]

As a suggestion, in order to make this less confrontational, I would suggest that you use the language of your "needs" and "wants" rather than your "conditions". Each person needs to feel free to put their own needs and wants on the table and then the three of you can work together to see what (if anything) is possible that meets all the needs.