Asking for consent in open relationships [Archive]

feelyunicorn

06-30-2012, 02:33 PM

Directly asking for what you want - whether it be a kiss, sex, or verbal approval - has been slandered, and maligned as 'unromantic' at best, if not downright rude.

In characteristic hetero-mono-normative can`t win, asking for consent is considered too pansy for men; and, too assertive for women. :eek: A real man is supposed to just 'take what he wants', and a lady is supposed to 'wait for Mr. Right'. In other words, hetero-mono-normativity claims passive-aggressiveness to be Holy Grail in getting what you want out of a relationship.

Taking passive-aggressive logic one step further, Prince Charming and Cinderella are supposed to sense, and preemptively divine our wants and innermost feelings without being told or be deemed unfit for a romantic candidate.

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I`ve been asked a few times 'what my pick up line was'. After proving myself wholly inept at hooking up by the usual methods, I must say that I`ve resorted to just asking. When I ask, success isn`t simply defined by getting what I want, but finding out whether partners or potential partners actually want the same.

The last girl I hooked up with began with a "Can I kiss you?" She had a strong, knee-jerk reaction to it, that almost made me jump out of my seat (she`s a coworker who gives me rides on Mondays and Wednesdays), "NO!"

I felt bummed out for a couple days, but eventually recovered. After a couple of weeks went by, she asked me whether I wanted to "have fun", NSA. :D

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I can understand how passive-aggressiveness works for hetero monos. It may even be its price of admission. However, I think in open relationships with multiple partners, asking for consent is essential. I do not see how open relationships can succeed otherwise.

Do you ask directly for what you want? Why do you think asking for consent has been labeled unromantic? Thanks. :)

Tonberry

06-30-2012, 04:42 PM

I guess it depends. I would ask directly for things like "going out", which although it means kissing and sex is actually a euphemism.
In the past, when I have been more direct I have turned men off and given a wrong impression.
I do like discussing what's fine and what isn't once a relationship has started.

However, if I'm going to kiss someone, I'm of the opinion that asking is unromantic. It's absolutely possible to just slowly lean towards the person, go half the way and wait for them to go the other half. If they don't, then it's a no. If they do, they consent.
Same thing with sex, you can start with snuggling and then get friskier, or get up and start undressing and then wait, and see if they ask you to keep unbuttoning that shirt or to button it back up.
You can ask for consent without being so in-your-face and to the point.

My ex would ask if I wanted to have sex. We'd be in the middle of foreplay and suddenly he interrupt it to ask. The answer was always no, because simply by asking, he had just shot down my libido completely, and I couldn't have wanted him less.
So yes, I do think asking in too much detail can be a problem and kill the mood. However I think it's good to know what you want and be confident about it. Just don't ask with words whenever there is another option. Sometimes it's the only way, though, and these times I try to use euphemism because I'm simply more comfortable with them.

feelyunicorn

06-30-2012, 05:17 PM

In the past, when I have been more direct I have turned men off and given a wrong impression.Too bad it wasn`t me. You would`ve gotten laid. :p There`s no greater turn on to me than a woman who`s super direct. Should I even bother to mention that I like women who curse, have mastery over irony, dig bukkakes, and play sports?

It's absolutely possible to just slowly lean towards the person, go half the way and wait for them to go the other half. If they don't, then it's a no. If they do, they consent.
Same thing with sex, you can start with snuggling and then get friskier, or get up and start undressing and then wait, and see if they ask you to keep unbuttoning that shirt or to button it back up.Of course, that`s ok too, as well as euphemisms. But, what to do if hints are misunderstood or go unnoticed? Can you really claim that subtlety is always enough? Can you really claim that sex or a relationship are never worthwhile if clarifications are needed?

My ex would ask if I wanted to have sex. We'd be in the middle of foreplay and suddenly he interrupt it to ask. The answer was always no, because simply by asking, he had just shot down my libido completely, and I couldn't have wanted him less.That was easy...just teasing. ;)

I can`t relate but, hey, whatever works for you.

Tonberry

06-30-2012, 06:41 PM

If subtlety doesn't work, then yes, I would clarify. If I think someone is misinterpreting, I would clarify as well. But I certainly wouldn't interrupt something that is going smoothly as has been done to me.
To be fair, there were other issues with my ex so it was important not to distract me at all when I was in the mood or I would stop being in the mood. Also, it was about phrasing. He would say things like "do you want to make love tonight?" which seemed clumsy at best. If he had said "let's fuck", that would have been less of a turn-off, I think. It would still have seemed weird to state the obvious that way, though.

A female friend of mine once was interested in having sex with a male friend we had in common. She flirted with him a lot and was hoping that one thing would lead to another. Then he suddenly asked in the middle of a flirting session "so, what about a booty call?" and she said it was like a cold shower.

I think in these cases, the problem is that suddenly, you start questioning if the person respects you, will respect you after the sex, is objectifying you, etc. That's what seemed to go through her head and nothing happened between the two of them, which is sad. If he had put his hand on her hip and leaned forward, I'm positive they would have become FWBs.

This being said, once again phrasing might have been in question. If he had told her "you know, I find you really hot, what do you say we go to my place and have some fun?" she probably would have been less shocked and more willing. Of course I can't speak for her.

feelyunicorn

06-30-2012, 07:14 PM

I think in these cases, the problem is that suddenly, you start questioning if the person respects you, will respect you after the sex, is objectifying you, etc. That's what seemed to go through her head and nothing happened between the two of them, which is sad. If he had put his hand on her hip and leaned forward, I'm positive they would have become FWBs.I don`t know, Ton. Your point is well-taken that verbal consent at the expense of body language may reek of insecurity. But, to consider an awkward turn of phrase a complete deal breaker also seems like insecurity on the receiver`s part.

I think it`s awesome to want confidence in a man, but we weren`t put on Earth to be confident for you, or to compensate for your insecurity. Especially, if the initiation rests on a man`s shoulder, I would think it appropriate to mention your insecurities about being respected prior to having sex, and move on with it. Nothing wrong with explaining to your partner what you`ve just said in this thread, either.

Ok, maybe you`ll need a little time to digest the new information and sex won`t happen that night. But, to rest the fate of a whole relationship on that? C`mon, now. In the end, it`s you and your friend`s loss.

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Obviously, if it were something recurrent after due discussion, then we might be dealing with something more serious. But, whenever a little turn of phrase is in-itself a deal-breaker, a thousand "daddy's princess/Virgin Mary-complex" red flags go up for me.

You seem to also be coming from a very specific unsuccessful experience, and unable to picture a situation when asking for consent is done from a place of confidence and assertiveness. Of a man who`s not afraid of taking "No" for an answer, and who asks exactly because he respects you as a separate entity from his wants and desires.

Tonberry

06-30-2012, 08:13 PM

Oh, I totally think that the reaction I described is bad and is due to sex negativity in our society. I simply stated that it happens. I think it's linked with how women who are portrayed as sexual are also portrayed negatively, as people no to be respected.
I think it's wrong that they are, but that means when a woman is blatantly sees as a sexual object and knows it, there is that concern. Sadly, it can be absolutely founded, there is no lack of men who expect sex to be owed to them for instance, and get upset when they don't get it. These same people tend to have less hangups about being forward than men who are more respectful, and so the association is made, and the woman who was asked becomes cautious. I'm not saying it's fair, but I do believe it's understandable, as females are more at risk, both physically (risk of pregnancy, more at risk for STDs, more at risk for abuse by a male than the other way around) and image-wise (one person saying the wrong thing about you can ruin your career, cost you friendships, etc. And based on sexual activity, these things are more likely to be considered negative in females than males. Consensual activity, I mean, harassment is the other way around).

I don't think it should necessarily be a deal breaker. If I'm really into someone, I doubt it would be. If I could go either way, the phrasing could make the difference though, until I get to know the guy more and get to trust him.

feelyunicorn

06-30-2012, 08:23 PM

GalaGirl

06-30-2012, 10:15 PM

Do you ask directly for what you want?

More or less. Yup. I'm a direct kinda gal. I like KISS -- keep it simple, silly.

But I don't say "I want X."

I temper it down a bit to "I'd like to X with you...may I? How would you feel about it?" in the date-y place.

It's only DH that gets the flat out "I want" because the subtle implied "I want X and I expect you to deliver NOW because I'm entitled so GIMMEE!" is kinda a turn on then. :D

Can be a total turn off in other contexts.

Why do you think asking for consent has been labeled unromantic? Thanks.

It's unromantic if your idea of "asking for consent" is a brusque "I want X" approach. That is not asking for anything. May as well be "I want potato chips!" Are you talking to another person or a thing? I know I am not potato chips!

It's more romantic if the question is actually ASKED. "I'd like X with you... may I?" or "I find the idea of X with you appealing... how would you feel about that?" You are engaging with me as a person, asking my thoughts and feedback. Not diving into my pants like I'm potato chips you suddenly felt like having. Again... "I know I'm not potato chips? DO YOU?" would be what would pop up in my head if I was in that situation.

It's possible to be direct with a little finesse and not come off all "GRRR! Thor hungry! Thor want EAT!" about it. It's not the concept of asking for consent up front that is unromantic. It's HOW that is done.

Once a guy who was upset I dropped him called me up drunk. At the break up I thought it was just too bad we didn't line up in commonalities. I liked him fine but he seemed to be looking for wife and I was not ready for that nor wanting that type rship then. I wanted something more open, more poly. So... not lining up, that's all.

He got all stupid drunk in his upset and disappointment and then called me from the bar and wailed "Why does DH-then-BF get to poke you and I can't?" I was horrified. Like THAT was going to put him ranking higher on my liking-you meter? Because our rship didn't get to that level? And I'm not a bag of potato chips just anyone can snack on? Sheesh. He apologized for his behavior later when he wasn't drunk and I forgave him but lordy... did that ever UNDERLINE why I thought he was NOT cut out for poly with me or what? :eek:

GG

Tonberry

06-30-2012, 10:20 PM

I take offense to your depiction of Thor :eek:

GalaGirl

06-30-2012, 10:32 PM

Typo. It was "Thorg."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Rugrats_characters

I was quoting Rugrats. Here's the clip. :)

Crazy toy robot gorilla goes chasing the children in the toy store.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PusNOs5_pZM

GG

Tonberry

06-30-2012, 10:34 PM

Ah, then that's fine :p You may now resume the discussion :cool:

GalaGirl

06-30-2012, 10:43 PM

LOL. I dunno, man. I thought that was the point? I dowanna resume talking to Thorg(s)!

Eeeeek! Run awaaaaaay! ;)

GG

feelyunicorn

07-01-2012, 12:37 AM

It's more romantic if the question is actually ASKED. "I'd like X with you... may I?" or "I find the idea of X with you appealing... how would you feel about that?" You are engaging with me as a person, asking my thoughts and feedback.The sentence in bold is exactly what I mean by 'asking for consent', and I think it`s implied in the expression itself. I don`t know why, but people usually tend to assume both extremes upon hearing it. Some think it`s sissy and insecure; others think it`s near-rape.

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Edit: I think the misunderstanding...

a) from the asking-is-sissy camp comes from partners who have already been given consent, but do not trust that it`s been given to them;

b) from the asking-is-rape camp comes from partners who feel entitled to a "Yes!"

But...I would say that neither insecurity nor entitlement are intrinsic to asking for consent.

GalaGirl

07-01-2012, 01:12 AM

Well, I'm viewing from my lens as a woman. That plays in here. :)

Some think it`s sissy and insecure; others think it`s near-rape.

Who is "some" here? People in general? Some men? Some women?

Cuz as a woman I NEVER thought double checking on the consent was a sissy thing to do. I viewed it as respectful of me.

Ok, maybe sometimes annoying if it is quadruple checked, but hey, I'll take extra checks, reassure and hope the person understands that YEAH! I said OK! I rather be mildly annoyed than be raped. I'd PREFER negotiate relationship as sane equals but... dude. Guys are bigger than me. My dating risk includes that sad reality factor.

And as a dating woman in the 20's decade... my experience was what it was.

a) Thor hungry, thor want eat! (creepy, brusque, immediate red flag.)

b) Ask more than once for consent (could get mildly annoying but infinitely preferable to creepy. The INTENT is repsectful of me as a person, so ok, I'll work with it and see what might be here or what... could still red flag but at least not Thorgy.)

c) once, maybe twice, did I experience some magic brewing with a 20's man that pitched it to me at the right notch like we were sane, consenting, equal partners trying to negotiate something.

It is what it is. I've not dated in my 30's because we're closed. So.... *shrug*

GG

feelyunicorn

07-01-2012, 01:22 AM

Well, I'm viewing from my lens as a woman.Clearly. Since, I could hardly understand what the hell you were talking about. :p The parts I did understand I have already addressed in my previous post.

Much luck to you. ;)

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Edit: People in general?You got it.

Guys are bigger than me.I`ll be sympathetic to that fact, as long as your supposed fragility is not used as a bullying tool against me, much like white people who lock their car doors when they see a black man crossing the street even though the guy`s got a Rolex on his wrist; as if to send a message.

GalaGirl

07-01-2012, 01:38 AM

I could hardly understand what the hell you were talking about.

LOL. You sound alien to me too. I had to back up again. And I can still hardly understand. ;)

I'm amused because I've come to this place with people a few times before.

Look! It's a pretty bowl with some fish!
Look! It's a bowl with some pretty fish!
Look at the pretty bowl, darn it!
Look at the pretty fish, already!

And the thing that is needed is to step back and acknowledge there is indeed a bowl with some fish in the room.

Pretty-factor TBD on eye of beholder. :D

I can understand how passive-aggressiveness works for hetero monos. It may even be its price of admission.

I don't even see how passive aggressive works for ANYONE wanting to be in a healthy rship. That kind of thing is a drag. How does it work? (show me possible fish please. I no see. #boggled )

However, I think in open relationships with multiple partners, asking for consent is essential. I do not see how open relationships can succeed otherwise

Of course. Is this not a big ol' DUH? :D No mono rship will fly well without it either. (Yes... I see the bowl in the room....and? )

I`ll be sympathetic to that fact, as long as your supposed fragility is not used as a bullying tool against me, much like white people who lock their car doors when they see a black man crossing the street; as if to send a message.

Amused. I'm not a delicate flower type. Why would I pull a melodramatic swoon to play out mind games? Much faster to tell the person what I feel straight up.

But yeah, I'm also not looking to get into creepy dark too lonely places with a Thorg-y type man either. Dates happen in nice open places and everyone BYO car to location until some trust thing is formed and the rship moves forward a bit. Poly dating is not immune to weirdo people floating around in it -- male or female.

GG

feelyunicorn

07-01-2012, 01:41 AM

LOL. You sound alien to me too. I had to back up again. And I can still hardly understand. ;)

Of course. Is this not a big ol' DUH? :DIt's just become pretty clear to me why you`re having dating problems. There`s no envying your boyfriend, to be sure.

GalaGirl

07-01-2012, 02:06 AM

It's just become pretty clear to me why you`re having dating problems. There`s no envying your boyfriend, to be sure.

Kinda mean there, dude. (For record: we're closed. I'm not in a dating space right now.)

But ok, I accidentally hit a nerve. I'll own that, and then I have to apologize to you for accidentally your hurting feelings somehow. I was not my intent. I am sincerely sorry. :(

I thought we were just having a good time kicking around general ideas in the realm of "Isn't poly dating sometimes so weird? Wassup on that consent thing?" like a casual banter in the "General Poly Discussion" area of the forum. *shrug*

Next time though, I'd rather you just tell me -- "Um... starting to hit a nerve. You doing that on purpose or what?" to help clarify rather than to try to my hurt feelings on purpose. That's not cool, dude.

But I'll own my part on this one if I was just being too goofball for you. My bad. Again my apologies.

Peace.
GG

ksandra

07-01-2012, 03:36 AM

However, if I'm going to kiss someone, I'm of the opinion that asking is unromantic. It's absolutely possible to just slowly lean towards the person, go half the way and wait for them to go the other half. If they don't, then it's a no.

Part of the rush for me is reading peoples' body language and then sense that you're both singing the same song, without necessarily having to say it right away. On a subconscious level too, I think it's a big bonus when another person's actions are matching yours, it's like signalling to your lizard brain that you both want the same thing/are of the same clan/etc.

It can also be super awkward to figure out how to bring words into action since they're two different types of communication. Personally it feels weird to go from: "May I kiss you?" to the act of kissing. Anything that happens after speech almost has a timeline to it, like you can't lead in by caressing someone or giving a massage or anything. If you ask to kiss them then the next action has to be a kiss. For me that takes out some of the spontaneity.

Can there be a balance though? Like can body language get us to a certain point and then words can help move us into the next stage of intimacy? Thoughts?

Emm

07-01-2012, 05:26 AM

Well, I'm viewing from my lens as a woman. Clearly. Since, I could hardly understand what the hell you were talking about. LOL. You sound alien to me too. I had to back up again. And I can still hardly understand.This may be less a case of gender differences than it is of sentence structure. GG, you seem to go off on stream of consciousness jaunts from time to time, and when you write in your own personal shorthand you are difficult to follow.

GalaGirl

07-01-2012, 12:48 PM

This may be less a case of gender differences than it is of sentence structure. GG, you seem to go off on stream of consciousness jaunts from time to time, and when you write in your own personal shorthand you are difficult to follow.

Fair 'nuff. I can see that.

GG

nycindie

07-01-2012, 01:15 PM

Directly asking for what you want - whether it be a kiss, sex, or verbal approval - has been slandered, and maligned as 'unromantic' at best, if not downright rude.

In characteristic hetero-mono-normative can`t win, asking for consent is considered too pansy for men; and, too assertive for women. :eek: A real man is supposed to just 'take what he wants', and a lady is supposed to 'wait for Mr. Right'. In other words, hetero-mono-normativity claims passive-aggressiveness to be Holy Grail in getting what you want out of a relationship.

I don't see this as true at all. In fact, it is usually considered a standard that a man won't know what a woman wants unless she tells him. Now, some women do that telling in a roundabout flirty way, and others more directly. But I have never seen asking for what one wants as something that is slandered, maligned, or considered rude - unless the person asking is simply just a rude, obnoxious person who may be asking as a formality but clearly feels entitled to what they want.

In my life of mostly monogamy, I've always asked for what I want. Sometimes I get it, sometimes I don't; sometimes asking is appreciated, sometimes it isn't. What's the big deal? I see no reason to cry over it or turn it into some manifesto or protest. You can't get blood from a stone, they say, so I either move on and try with someone else or fine-tune and improve my method of asking.

If it's pretty consistent that people find you offensive, then it may not be the "ask" itself, but your attitude that accompanies it.

AnnabelMore

07-01-2012, 03:47 PM

I'm a big fan of directness and clarity. When I was a teenager, I dated a beautiful girl for a few months. We got into bed, I took the lead, we made out, I placed her hands on my breasts and started fondling hers. It was awesome, I thought she was into it. The next day, she admitted that we had moved way too fast for her and she hadn't known how to say so. I felt like complete shit and we broke up not too long after.

To me, talking is not a matter of how best to get what I want, it's a matter of respect for myself and the other person. I want to know that we're both having a good time, and as I learned, your perceptions of body language can be so colored by desire, or so unclear on the other person's part, that you get it wrong... and that's just not ok for anyone. :(
There are sexier and less sexy ways to handle talking, of course. There's "Can I touch you there?" which can be a little too weird and insecure sounding, and then there's murmuring "Is this ok?" or "Let me know if we're going too fast" or "What would you like?" or even just "All good?"

feelyunicorn

07-01-2012, 04:26 PM

I'm a big fan of directness and clarity.You`re a diamond in a rough, thank you. I`m truly surprised by the lack of positive feedback in this forum. I`ve posted the same thread elsewhere, and have gotten mostly positive 'reviews', which just goes to show how much I fit into poly. I may repost a post from someone in another forum (a woman) with due permission, because it`s an example of what I`m talking about from a female perspective.

I also think bisexual women (especially doms or switch) will be more inclined to entertain asking for consent, because there`s no Prince Charming to take responsibility for initiation for them at all times.

If you ask to kiss them then the next action has to be a kiss. For me that takes out some of the spontaneity.Presumably, you want to if you say, Yes? Here`s something else I seem to be picking up on, you tell me if I`m wrong. It really lays bare how much of a disagreement I have with anything even remotely resembling Cinderella.

I think that asking for consent forces women to make a decision about sex, and that leaves them feeling like 'sluts' IF they are not sex-positive. I think this also addresses a couple of Ton`s posts. This is why I love asking for consent, and why most women hate the idea (vs. the reality of it).

I fear that a lot of the emphasis on 'spontaneity' and 'naturalness', etc. has to do with that fact: ladies are not supposed to actively pursue sex. They are supposed to be taken, 'swept off their feet', or whatever metaphor there is for passive-aggressive behavior.

This is why I really put myself out there about not being 'romantic' (even the word gives me the creeps). It weeds out potential partners who want to reenact some medieval story.

Don`t get me wrong, I`m one of the most affectionate and sensitive guys you`ll ever meet once you make the unambiguous, independent decision to be with me (verbally or otherwise); I`m just not interested in making that decision for you, or manipulating you in any way because then that leaves me feeling like a undesirable douche.

In essence, I think what 'romance' is, is a man picking up the slack for everything that goes on in a relationship.

In other words, 'romance' = gender double-standards. So, yeah. Asking for consent does break down gender roles and the Cinderella story to pieces. If you are in any way attached to those, I can only imagine you`d hate it.

AutumnalTone

07-01-2012, 07:42 PM

...to consider an awkward turn of phrase a complete deal breaker also seems like insecurity on the receiver`s part.

We have a winner!

For me, if she can't speak directly to the point about what she does or does not want, not much can happen. I don't read minds and won't attempt to do so. If asking if she wants to fuck is too much for her, I've got better things to do.

GalaGirl

07-01-2012, 08:17 PM

In essence, I think what 'romance' is, is a man picking up the slack for everything that goes on in a relationship.

In other words, 'romance' = gender double-standards. So, yeah. Asking for consent does break down gender roles and the Cinderella story to pieces. If you are in any way attached to those, I can only imagine you`d hate it.

In my definition, consent is part of the whole process of romancing. It's so intrinsic that I cannot see there being any romancing going on without consent. No consent? It's a one sided crush/infatuation/something else. Courting someone who does not want to be wooed is not romancing them.

At best it is unrequited love, and romancer backs off (hopefully) when gently turned down. At worst it gets... creepy... if they keep on insisting.

I also don't think "romance" is the man just picking up the slack for everything that goes on in a relationship any more than it is a woman picking up the slack in the relationship.

"Relationship" to me implies a flow of back and forth communication going on there. Nobody is a mind reader. The people romancing each other have to actually communicate. To me, "communication" is so intrinsic to me in '"relationship" -- there's just no real relationship at all if there's no real communication at all. Does not compute.

GG

Tonberry

07-01-2012, 08:54 PM

I think romance is the little things that show you think about one another. Picking up a gift for someone, for no specific reason, just to see the smile on their face when you give it to them. Doing little gestures for them for similar reasons. Just hugging them and staying like that.

I think the reason I see romance as being largely unspoken is because I see it as having much more of a physical component, of it being about actions. I don't think it's quite the same calling up someone and asking if they want you to get flowers for them or doing it as a surprise, for instance.

feelyunicorn

07-01-2012, 09:42 PM

We have a winner!

For me, if she can't speak directly to the point about what she does or does not want, not much can happen. I don't read minds and won't attempt to do so. If asking if she wants to fuck is too much for her, I've got better things to do.THANK YOU!!! :)

Now I don`t feel so alone and misunderstood. The whole idea of 'spontaneous' and 'natural' is never complete without first asking the question: "Spontaneous and natural to whom? Romantic to whom?"

And the answer is...to women! That`s who! Of course! I`ve met my share of men who are slam-dunk Prince Charmings and would have it no other way. They like to pursue, they like to give gifts, and flowers, and compliments, and pull chairs...they love to break a woman`s resistance down, and have complete mastery over the interpretion of mixed signals. They are tall, bronze, chiseled. They abhor women who are 'easy'. Lord have mercy if a woman were to even entertain the possibility of directly saying "yes" to anything intimate!

The whole process of seduction makes them feel like they`ve conquered something special, and boosts their self-esteem a thousand-fold. I can totally see it... Even those men, do not describe the whole ordeal as 'spontaneous.' What it is is a lot of work. That`s what it is :D...no matter how validated and macho they feel in the end.

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Well, good on them. To me, it`s completely counter-intuitive and ego-damaging to have someone resist me and want me at the same time? :confused: Call me gay. When I deal with guys that`s not even a thought. Either you want it, or you don`t. Simple.

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Edit: I must say, in the end, I envy them (The Prince Charmings). They seem really confident, always smiley, and true ladiesmen. But, what makes me really really confused is that they aren`t statistically more successful with women than I. Whenever I talk to them, I can`t help by chuckle at the number of women they say they`ve been with. And, there they are, giving me advice on how to pick up chicks and shit.

Why?? Can someone answer me? Topsy-turvy world.

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Edit2: It is true that they pick up more attractive women than I do. Although, I`ve had my moments. :)

Tonberry

07-01-2012, 10:50 PM

How do you know what their success rate is? If you only know the number of successes, and not the number of tries, you can't really know. It could be that they have an extremely high rate of success but are also pickier about their partners to begin with, for instance, or aren't interested in many people.

In other words, I don't think it's a pure number thing. I think they go for what they deem to be quality over quantity (otherwise why would they want a long courting period and effort over some period of time? If they just wanted sex with many women, they could see several of them in the time it probably takes them to court one slowly).
Now, obviously tastes vary so I don't think one can agree on what "quality" is, it's not as obvious as "quantity".

But I think a lot of people see someone who has been with one person all their life and think it's the ultimate success "getting it right from the first try", while other think in numbers of partners, and the two viewpoints are so completely different that I'm not sure how they can be compared. Depending on the way you look at it, who is the "winner" and who is the "loser" will change.

feelyunicorn

07-02-2012, 03:35 AM

But I think a lot of people see someone who has been with one person all their life and think it's the ultimate success "getting it right from the first try", while other think in numbers of partners, and the two viewpoints are so completely different that I'm not sure how they can be compared. Depending on the way you look at it, who is the "winner" and who is the "loser" will change.Truer words have never been spoken.

The reason I know is because my friends tell me how many women they`ve been with. And, trust me, they hit on women way more than I do. I actually feel a lot pickier than them. But, that`s probably not true.

It takes me A LOT to get out of my comfort zone and hit on a girl. Whenever I do, I`m almost certain of 'success' (hereby defined as, getting to third base). The difference is; I`m pickier success-wise, they are pickier princess-wise. But, that also refers mostly to the past. Before I became a habitual john. Say, 3 years ago, when I was still living in New York City where prostitution is illegal, and where I used to go out a lot to pick up girls at bars and nightclubs.

My go out buddy then, was more successful numbers-wise than me. He`s the only guy I know who`s as filthy as I am. He`s probably been with as many women as I, but mostly without paying. Although, we did that together too!

The more I compare myself to them, the more confused I become about where I stand in the ladiesmen pecking order. I probably couldn`t handle the truth! Good or bad!

ksandra

07-02-2012, 05:01 AM

Presumably, you want to if you say, Yes? Here`s something else I seem to be picking up on, you tell me if I`m wrong. It really lays bare how much of a disagreement I have with anything even remotely resembling Cinderella.

I think that asking for consent forces women to make a decision about sex, and that leaves them feeling like 'sluts' IF they are not sex-positive. I think this also addresses a couple of Ton`s posts. This is why I love asking for consent, and why most women hate the idea (vs. the reality of it).

I fear that a lot of the emphasis on 'spontaneity' and 'naturalness', etc. has to do with that fact: ladies are not supposed to actively pursue sex. They are supposed to be taken, 'swept off their feet', or whatever metaphor there is for passive-aggressive behavior.

Maybe part of the turn off is that it suddenly puts pressure on the situation? It forces people to make a decision and commit versus playing things by ear. This is not entail either party sitting around and waiting to be romanced into anything. I'm talking about two people who are both interested in each other exploring their feelings and seeing what happens instead of having to make a decision about what will happen.

For me seduction, for lack of a better word, is a 50/50 split (I think someone else has mentioned this) if both parties aren't taking an active role then it isn't a seduction. Ideally things move ahead because you are both in tune with each other and yes, at some point I agree that consent should be verbally brought up

feelyunicorn in reading over a lot of your posts it feels like you're more interested in convincing us that you are correct instead of an open dialogue for thoughts and ideas regarding this issue. Please don't take offence to this but are you actually interested in hearing alternate viewpoints?

ThatGirlInGray

07-02-2012, 05:26 AM

I think the times asking is a turn-off or seen as unromantic are those times when it appears to be a shortcut, used instead of paying close attention to the person you're with and thinking about them.

Romance does not have to be gender specific. It's about putting thought and effort into something to please someone you care about. Sometimes, yes, asking needs to happen, because you're just not interpreting cues well (maybe you haven't been together long enough for that, or maybe there aren't many cues this time, or whatever) but if asking becomes a replacement for doing the work of paying attention and putting thought and effort in, that's not going to go over well, with good reason.

Kinda reminds me of people who propose and get turned down- I wonder what led them to think proposing was a good idea in the first place. It also reminds me of the saying, "If you have to ask how much it is, you can't afford it." Basically, asking for clarity and confirmation is usually okay, but if you're asking and have no idea of the answer you'll get, then it probably hasn't been long enough. Take some more time to be a little more confident in the place/position you're currently in before trying to move forward.

NovemberRain

07-02-2012, 05:39 AM

feelyunicorn

07-02-2012, 05:39 AM

Please don't take offence to this but are you actually interested in hearing alternate viewpoints?I`ve already moved on, as you can see from my last post. I think I`ve said everything I wanted to say in regard to the original topic.

I was just dismayed, since this is only my second thread here: one, by the near-unanimity against; and secondly, by the heavy dose of "female perspective" (with the exception of one post), for lack of a better term. :rolleyes: Which, to be honest, was quite creepy with Annabel`s glaring exception.

I truly did not expect to be thrown to the lions in the way I was. Not here. I thought the idea would get a better response among polys than elsewhere (especially since I got it from another poly forum; and, a female poster at that). But, precisely the opposite happened.

In my blissful ignorance, I even thought asking for consent was a majority opinion if not one of the tenets of polyamory. Right along with communicate, communicate, communicate.

Live and learn.

------------

I should also point out that the original idea of this thread went beyond dating and seduction. For instance, earlier tonight I asked a platonic female friend if she could initiate more of our chats on Facebook. I`ve known her since we were kids, we talk about very personal things, and we both feel like we are the only ones we can talk to about certain topics...it`s clear we have some kind of connection, so why do I feel like I always initiate our conversations?

She responds to my "hi" enthusiastically, and we talk for hours. So obviously, she enjoys them. So, why not say "Hi" now and then, rather than wait for me to do so?

Stuff like that. That`s also asking for what you want. Doesn`t have to be a kiss or sex.

But, if you guys manage multiple relationships without it more power to you.

NovemberRain

07-02-2012, 05:47 AM

Do you ask directly for what you want? Why do you think asking for consent has been labeled unromantic? Thanks. :)

I`ve already moved on, as you can see from my last post. I think I`ve said everything I wanted to say in regard to the original topic.

I was just a little dismayed, since this is only my second thread here: one, by the near-unanimity against; and secondly, by the heavy dose of "female perspective" (with the exception of one post), for lack of a better term. :rolleyes:

I truly did not expect to be thrown to the lions in the way I was. Not here. I thought the idea would get a better response among polys than elsewhere (especially since I got it from another poly forum; and, a female poster at that). But, precisely the opposite happened.

Dood, you asked if we ask for what we want, and then you asked if we thought it was unromantic and why. I saw a bunch of posts answering that. How exactly did you get 'thrown to the lions?'

Or did you not really want to know what people here think, you just wanted people to agree with you?
:confused:

feelyunicorn

07-02-2012, 06:04 AM

Dood, you asked if we ask for what we want, and then you asked if we thought it was unromantic and why. I saw a bunch of posts answering that. How exactly did you get 'thrown to the lions?'

Or did you not really want to know what people here think, you just wanted people to agree with you?
:confused:The answer to your question (which, is the same as ksandra`s) is in my previous post. Maybe we should just acknowledge and accept miscommunication lest we should look like a bickering married couple.

NovemberRain

07-02-2012, 07:35 AM

I do not accept 'miscommunication.' I am not inclined to throw people to the lions, and I would like to know how that happened to you, so I can avoid it. I'm not seeing it, and I seek to understand.

feelyunicorn

07-02-2012, 02:11 PM

I do not accept 'miscommunication.' I am not inclined to throw people to the lions, and I would like to know how that happened to you, so I can avoid it. I'm not seeing it, and I seek to understand.I appreciate your concern, and you sound sincere. But, when do you call it quits?

I have a friend who`s a devout Catholic and an advanced student of theology. He toys with the idea of going into the priesthood. We`ve known each other for 18 years, since high school. We`ve argued many times, until I felt that we started having circular arguments and that was damaging our friendship.

I eventually sat him down and said, "Look. We have a fundamental disagreement. I think we`ve discussed all facets of it in all possible contexts and guises. I think it`s time we avoid that subject. I`m pretty sure where you stand, and I think you feel the same about me.

It`s time for us to decide whether this disagreement is a deal-breaker for us, or if we can move beyond it. I`ll tell you what`s a deal-breaker for me, and that is, continuing this circular argument."

It turns out we had enough in common in other areas that we felt we should remain friends. Sometimes, I have to remind him that I don`t want to discuss religion with him (asking for consent). But, all in all, we`ve moved on pretty good.

------------
Have you ever been in a situation in which say something expecting positive feedback and, to your utter surprise, virtually everyone in the room vehemently disagrees with you? How did you feel?

CielDuMatin

07-02-2012, 02:34 PM

I am going to go back to the original post, and provide another male perspective, if that's ok.

I am not a fan of games in relationships. This strange requirement that one should have the ability to somehow mind-read what the other does and doesn't want is one that I fall woefully short on. I admire those that have the telepathic ability that I don't, so I have to work without it.

As such, I much prefer a direct approach - if you want something, and don't mention it in some rather obvious way, then don't be upset with me when I don't follow up on that wish. If you wish to drop some hints with decreasing subtlety first, that's fine too, but please be prepared to come out and say it if it's important to you.

On the other hand, if you are going to do this, please be prepared that I might refuse, and don't get offended. I think that it is this that holds most folks back from being so forthright.

I actually finds this direct approach a turn-ON, rather than a turn-OFF. I admire people who know what they want and aren't afraid to ask for it.

When it comes to me asking, I don't tend to phrase it in terms of "asking for consent". There's a difference between "Would it be ok with you if I kissed you?" and "I would really like to kiss you". You are stating a desire, then the other person can react to it.

Does that make sense?

feelyunicorn

07-02-2012, 02:41 PM

I am going to go back to the original post, and provide another male perspective, if that's ok.

When it comes to me asking, I don't tend to phrase it in terms of "asking for consent". There's a difference between "Would it be ok with you if I kissed you?" and "I would really like to kiss you". You are stating a desire, then the other person can react to it.

Does that make sense?Of course it`s ok. It does to me.

I tend to do both, express my desire and ask for consent. I`ve been doing it ever since I read a book called "People Skills", in which the author recommends a two-part I-statement (sometimes, called feeling statements) and you-question to healthy communication.

At the time, I was negotiating a nasty break up with my ex and also weathering relationship problems with my parents. I think the two-part structure to communication was responsible for making me come out of both challenges, if not smelling like a rose :D, at least in the best way possible.

Everything else you`ve said is spot on with my own feelings on the matter.

CielDuMatin

07-02-2012, 03:06 PM

Now, that having been said, I know of a lot of guys who love the game-playing and the second-guessing, and get very intimidated by women who are forthright in their expressions of their wants and needs.

They probably find the people that match that preference. :)

nycindie

07-02-2012, 04:33 PM

You know, it really isn't all that much work for a guy to be polite, respectful, pull out a chair, or open a door. However, just because he does all that doesn't automatically mean he's getting laid. If I want to fuck, I'll let him know in no uncertain terms. But being direct doesn't mean it's okay for him to act like an ape.

opalescent

07-03-2012, 02:59 AM

I know of a lot of guys who love the game-playing and the second-guessing, and get very intimidated by women who are forthright in their expressions of their wants and needs.

And those guys are not ready to play in the big leagues. I am quite direct. If someone, man or woman, is that easily intimidated, then that makes my decision making process much easier.

That said I do think too many women put too much of a burden on men figuring out indirect sexual clues. Subtlety is fine but there is also much to be said for owning and expressing one's desires.

ksandra

07-04-2012, 03:05 AM

That said I do think too many women put too much of a burden on men figuring out indirect sexual clues. Subtlety is fine but there is also much to be said for owning and expressing one's desires.

Something that hasn't been brought up yet is the woman's actions. A lot of these posts seem like we're assuming that the woman is just sitting these and doing nothing. In that case, yes, it is all up to the man. But we all agree there are more ways to signal interest than just going: "Let's fuck" yes? So what about situations where both parties are exhibiting all the right body language for things to move forward?

GalaGirl

07-04-2012, 03:10 AM

A lot of these posts seem like we're assuming that the woman is just sitting these and doing nothing. In that case, yes, it is all up to the man.

I think it's on the person who is interested. Just own it and speak up. Man or woman -- it makes no difference. You interested? Speak up. Other people are not mind readers.

So what about situations where both parties are exhibiting all the right body language for things to move forward?

Someone just speaks up and see if it moves it forward?

This is like talking in circles to me. *mind boggling*

I think direct is best. I'm with opalescent here with this quote...

And those guys are not ready to play in the big leagues. I am quite direct. If someone, man or woman, is that easily intimidated, then that makes my decision making process much easier.

I know what I want when I want it. I will check if the other person shares same and then yay. I'm not going to be CRASS about expressing the desire but I will express it straight up.

"I find you attractive and would like to ____ you. Would that be ok?"

If no shared desire, then alright. I back off.

Making it harder than it needs to be is just ugh. I prefer KISS -- "Keep is simple, silly."

I don't mind being shot down. I'm paying the person a compliment that I find them attractive. I don't expect them to go there just because I wouldn't mind. They have their own feelings about it.

I expect myself to just speak up and let the person know.

I also expect if a person speaks up to ME that I will say "Yes!" or "No!" clearly.

I expect the person to accept my clear answer.

GG

ksandra

07-06-2012, 01:42 AM

Someone just speaks up and see if it moves it forward?

This is like talking in circles to me. *mind boggling*

I may have been a little sleep deprived when I wrote this :) What I'm asking is: Is verbal communication the only way to clearly move a situation forward? Or are there other ways that give clear signals to the other party that don't involve verbal involvement?

Thoughts?

nycindie

07-06-2012, 02:19 AM

Oh, sure!! I'm very direct but I think I can very clearly get the message across with my eyes, body language, smile, and some strategic touching. I have no qualms about saying what I want, but it isn't always necessary. And sometimes it's a lot more fun when nothing is spoken!

GalaGirl

07-06-2012, 03:09 AM

Is verbal communication the only way to clearly move a situation forward? Or are there other ways that give clear signals to the other party that don't involve verbal involvement?

Physical touch? Hold a hand? Play footsie? Invade personal body space and get within kissing range? Actually kiss them? Take your shirt off?

But you better be pretty dang sure they feel the same.

It is very alarming if they do not for them to receive unwanted attention like that.

Verbal still seems simplest to me, then move on to physical touch.

GG

km34

07-06-2012, 03:48 AM

For me, when I'm sending out all the body language signals that show I want to be kissed or whatever, verbal confirmation is overkill and the mood goes away. But I'm not a naturally touchy-feely person, so when I am in the mood for physical contact, it is quite obvious.

The only time I've ever had someone straight out ask me if it was okay to kiss, touch, grope, etc me is in casual sex situations. Never in my dating life has it ever happened nor have I ever felt like it needed to happen - things flow organically and generally if a person I am dating and I don't sync up enough to be on the same page about whether or not a kiss is okay, I don't see a relationship happening - not because I expect mind readers, but because I expect a person to be able to read my body language enough to know when it is a "don't touch me" moment. A conversation happens before it goes beyond kissing, but that is a safety thing more than a consent thing.

In open relationships, communication is important, but I don't think explicitly asking "Is it okay if I kiss you?" is necessary except in very special situations. Generally, it's pretty darn obvious if someone is okay with being kissed. The exception to this may be if you haven't had the rules/boundaries conversation yet, but I would think that would happen early enough on that it would preempt any unwanted physical overtures.

NovemberRain

07-10-2012, 07:27 AM

Just FYI, this thread has completely warped me. Made a friend, had a long chat, over some food. After saying he didn't envision me as a long-term primary, he volunteered his interest in finding out what else we might want to do. Fine. Get to cars. He went for a hug (hadn't figured him for a hugger, should have, probably). He went to kiss me, and I turned my face. Then he mumbled something about a kiss, and kissed me.

ALL I COULD THINK ABOUT WAS THIS THREAD.
lol

I was surprised, I guess, because I hallucinated that he was the sort who would ask, and ask directly. (I didn't have much reason to hallucinate him up that way, but there it was) I wasn't asking because I wasn't that interested. I can't imagine wanting to kiss someone that I don't know that well. I mean, it was a lovely chat, it really was. I'm just not inspired to kiss on first dates. And it wasn't even a date.